What should museums do with their dead? (w/ Caitlin Doughty!)

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Many museums house significant numbers of human remains, many of which were acquired without the consent of the individual in question. So, our good friend Caitlin from Ask a Mortician stopped by the Field Museum to talk with us about it.
This is a humongous and complicated topic - we'd love to know what you think!
Caitlin's channel: / orderofthegooddeath
Website: caitlindoughty.com/
Read her books they're AWESOME: / 7802044.caitlin_doughty
Info on NAGPRA: www.nps.gov/subjects/nagpra/i...
Here's the paper from Science about the person from Spirit Cave and the genetic testing of that individual: science.sciencemag.org/conten...
Mummy unwrapping parties:
www.atlasobscura.com/articles...
Origins of Exhibited Cadavers Questioned:
www.npr.org/templates/story/s...
More on Grover Krantz, Sasquatch scientist and expert on human evolution: www.seattlepi.com/news/articl...
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Come hang out in our Subreddit: / thebrainscoop
egraslie
Twitters: @ehmee
Facebook: / thebrainscoop
We have a Newsletter! Sign up for updates!: bit.ly/2oYTY6p
---------------------------------------­----------------------------
Executive Producer, Creator, Host:
Emily Graslie
Producer, Director, Editor:
Sheheryar Ahsan
Production Assistant, Content Developer:
Raven Forrest
Interview with:
Caitlin Doughty
Production Support/Stuntman:
Vinícius Penteado
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This episode is filmed on location at the Field Museum in Chicago, Illinois.
www.fieldmuseum.org

[@jacobnion2525]

Since no one else does, I may mention the beautiful lobster earrings. They deserve a comment, too.

[@wonderwend1]

With the colour coordinating shoes. Perfect.

[@ludettep]

During their conversation my eyes kept wandering to the earrings and shoes :)

[@peregrination3643]

I was about to, lol. Those are impressive. Polka dot dress, red heels, cats-eye glasses--she owns her style! But the earrings are the best.

[@catalinavaldivia3730]

They are so beautiful!! I want them >

[@skittlescat294]

I always love Emily's earrings. She's also had spiders and bees. Where do you get them, girl; the gift shop?

[@lynnaiken204]

I watched this earlier and it has been percolating in my mind. I figured I needed to tell a story. My Dad died at 64 and I signed the DNR. We are a medical family and so death is not a big deal for us. Fast forward, we picked up his ashes on the way to do the food shopping, but then felt a little weird about leaving them in the trunk. Now the last month of his life he spent in hospital on a Ventilator. All he wanted to do was go home and watch TV in his recliner. So, we took the ashes home, tilted back the recliner, put the box in the recliner and turned on the TV. On my way out the door, I stopped and put his glasses on the box so that he could see it clearly. The responses to this story were: 1) confusion, they did not get it 2) horror, it was sacrilege 3) laughter, from the people who understood Even those closest to you and the deceased, don't always see eye to eye on the appropriate way to honor the dead. It is a tricky balancing act and you did a great job explaining the problem.

[@zazuzazz5419]

It’s all about intention. I know your little ceremony was an act of love. My condolences to you and your family. 🕊

[@codename495]

You knew your dad and it sounds very much like he would’ve gotten quite the kick out of it. It’s little different than people who spread their loved ones ashes in whatever place.

[@tallulahrubymonroe4280]

I love this thank you so much for sharing

[@sk8rpunkbarbie]

That's a lovely thing to do even tho he is no longer physically there he appreciated that

[@Palitato]

It's not human remains, but rather my cat- I had her for 17 years and grew up with her. She was family. When she passed, I had her cremated. Leaving the ashes just sitting on a shelf felt weird- and I didn't want to scatter them because we had moved so many times. This place doesn't mean anything in her history. It turns out, that the tin her ashes are in fit perfectly snug into a TARDIS cookie jar that I have. So that's where she is. In the TARDIS, so that she's with me throughout time and space. And I made sure to put a couple of her toys in there too.

[@DoloresJNurss]

I know an archaeologist who precedes his digs by consulting the nearest descendants he can find about the most respectful way to deal with the site. One tribe required that he participate in seven rituals over seven years, and he did it. They then gave him his blessing, and so help me, he started having dreams telling him where to dig!

[@AnotherMADCreation]

Are there any videos or books documenting his journey? It sounds like it would be incredibly fascinating.

[@faelientrashvlogs1495]

More people should be like your friend, I know Natives who stumble upon items taken and they know what families they belong to and the family never knew it was stolen 😣

[@shawnnewell4541]

Fascinating.

[@DoloresJNurss]

@@AnotherMADCreation I know that he has given a presentation on this to the International Association for the Study of Dreams, called "Field of Dreams" (the site was discovered when clearing ground for a baseball field.) There's no book on it, I'm afraid, but I do know that he worked closely with indigenous tribes in the work discussed in his book, "Stone Prayers: Native American Constructions of the Eastern Seaboard".

[@celticeyesmorriganrising929]

TELL US WHAT HE FOUND!

[@TessaAvonlea]

Emily mentioning that she's been a full time museum employee for 6 years really made feeling old sink in in a way that my birthdays just haven't

[@thebrainscoop]

well, same tbh

[@mahna_mahna]

@@thebrainscoop I felt old when I realized I'd lived in my current state (after having moved around a bit) longer than youtube has existed. It just seems unreal.

[@wuffles101]

That's exactly what I felt... I ran across Emily kind of accidentally and just realised that she's just been kind of there for ages, I worried about her changing jobs, I cared about how her colleagues included her in their space, I enjoyed watching her style change and yet stay so her... It's weird how a stranger can be part of your mind space, at the same level as a friend. And as for Caitlin... Well, I think I've watched every single episode. 'nuff said...

[@dave900575]

Wait until your in your 50s or 60s look at your grown up kid and wonder where the time went. Then you think back on all the things you dud together while they were growing up.

[@Spring_rhys]

It’s barely 2020 and we already have the best crossover of the decade!

[@Spring_rhys]

I finished the video and I think you both handled the topic extremely well! It’s nice to learn that museums are beginning to have procedures and guidelines for what to do with remains that may have joined the collections under less than ideal circumstances- It’s something I’ve always wondered about, honestly.

[@ambulocetusnatans]

OMG, that's what I was going to say! I've seen a lot of collabs, but this is epic!

[@wonderwend1]

I thought that and I was only 2 seconds in!

[@rachaelsnider7351]

Testify!

[@TheRisskee]

I felt that way before I even clicked. HAHA! So exciting!

[@chucKieROx]

Everyone: “Avengers infinity war is the best crossover of all time” Caitlyn and Emily: “ Hold my formaldehyde” Thanks for making my morning a little bit better fam! Y’all are golden 💖

[@ACertainJustice]

Hot Berry Juice this comment wins the internet

[@IQzminus2]

Yes! This comment a hundred times!

[@Aconitum_napellus]

Although formaldehyde is not as pleasant as beer.

[@chucKieROx]

Something Dreadful everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, I guess

[@mischa2643]

IQzminus2 300, I guess-I just bumped the likes to 300😂

[@Tayylynnx0]

I remember asking my parents when I was in high school, "at what point does it become archaeology rather than grave robbing?" and they didn't have an answer for me. thanks for the nuanced conversation!

[@garymillar169]

About the same time as another human life as the time after death 80 years or so

[@DeRien8]

Once the culture hosting the remains no longer recognizes those graves as being part of their culture.

[@garymillar169]

@@DeRien8 Egyptology

[@ladyoftimeandspace]

This is actually a very difficult question. I am currently studying archeology (specifying in Egyptology) in university and I realise every day how people working in the archeological field are sometimes near to denying that they are doing grave robbery on an ethical level. I am often times very upset about the way that is spoken about any kind of human remains and how they are handled in excavation and museal contexts. (I really hope that I can do something about that some day when I continue studying.) Legally speaking the difference between archeology and grave robbery is the official permit that you need for an excavation from the government of the country where you want to dig.

[@garymillar169]

@@ladyoftimeandspace which depends on the date of the burial and the information that can be learned and also if it were a recent enough grave say 1970s a forensic team would sent to excavate

[@PSPMHaestros]

I need a 4 hour podcast with these two legends

[@hausofjulian]

YES

[@pentagramprime1585]

If I die tomorrow they can spend 4 hours cutting me up.

[@whedabra]

I’d watch/listen to that.

[@MissChase86]

Oooh A double feature Death in the Afternoon?

[@nicereminders]

me too!

[@DaveTpletsch]

I very much appreciated the tone of this, the respect you both tried to give, and Emily's personal example of how she had not given the Egyptian remains the respect they perhaps deserved. This kind of self awareness and willingness to admit to making mistakes and honestly trying to address those mistakes is, in my opinion, the most attractive and good quality any person can have. Seeing you both emphasizing consent and giving respect and reverence to people who have been denied consent for so long gives me hope for humanity. I wish more people cared enough to behave this way about any topic. Thank you both for being such good people. I haven't follow Caitlin before this unfortunately, but Emily, you are my Mr. Rodgers.

[@PoisonTheOgres]

Ooh you should definitely watch some Caitlin videos. The first time I watched her, I found her attitude about death a bit unsettling, but after watching almost all of her videos I really respect her. She's amazing!

[@daStitches]

I was about to leave a comment and decided you said better than I could, completely agree!

[@ephemera...]

Thank you for this comment.

[@bloodbaymare]

Admitting to mistakes also sheds light on weakness in areas of our culture and how we can better educate people. Her mistake wasn't necessarily a reflection of her own character, but rather of a systemic problem that permeates society. The fact that she can openly talk about her shortcomings and the lessons that she learned definitely lets her thoughtfulness and respectful attitude shine. This was such an interesting video!

[@DaveTpletsch]

@@bloodbaymare I wholeheartedly agree. I didn't actually think that Emily had been disrespectful to the remains in the video about mummy conservation, rather I had thought that her exuberance was catching and was grateful for someone who could look at the remains in a way that was both exciting and demystifying. But I gather some of the comments thought she had been callous. The thing that I most admire about the situation is that she was able to say something to the effect of "They are making a valid point" when considering that criticism. I don't mean that I'm glad she gave in to pressure from youtube commentators because honestly a policy of doing so would be madness, but I'm glad she was able to see validity in some criticism, internalize that, admit her mistake, and shift her moral code for the better as a result without squashing that wonderful exuberance and curiosity which is the thing I think personally most enjoy about this channel. I respect Emily so much because this pattern of accepting valid criticism and using it as a stepping stone to become a better person isn't something you see very often, and I believe that it's the way we as people learn about and develop morality. It's not just having a conscience, having a conscience is a function of that behavior, and that behavior is a perfect example of both the curiosity and empathy which Emily is always encouraging us to exercise. I can't help but wonder what our society would be like if this sort of behavior was the norm?

[@lohphat]

This is YT at its best. Two educated people, passionate about their work and the ethics surrounding it. More please!

[@MathildaFlow]

I live in the university town of Lund, Sweden and we have some collections I find morally disturbing. In the late 1800s and the early 1900s, if you died in the poor house your body could legally be handed over to medical schools etc. Studies have shown that the people living and dying in the poor houses probably had no idea this could/would happen to them after death. It was still a very religious country back then a burial was important, but you were a ward of the state so they didn't need your consent. Also, if you killed yourself, if you died while in police custody or if you were a person living a transient lifestyle, your body would be "donated" for science. It was the law and probably not made by people who would ever run the risk of being subjected to that treatment when they had died. We have a full skeleton of an 11-year-old boy in the museum. He shot himself because he was being ill-treated at the farm where he was working. We also have the full skeleton of a teenage girl who hung herself after she fell pregnant after incestuous rape. They are still standing (yes, standing, like your average anatomical model skeleton) around in the basement of the museum of history in Lund, when they are not on display. In 2005 the museum gave the skull of a Jewish man from Germany, who had hung himself while in police custody in Lund in 1879, back to the local Jewish congregation. His skull had been on display as late as in 2001. They have also given back some other skulls to the respective countries and tribes they were from. Skulls that were probably used in the, now shameful, racial biological research that fueled nationalism and racism in Europe, leading up to WWII. To me, it is kind of bizarre that they are not trying harder to bury at least the skeletons of the children in the collections. We know their names, we know when they were born, how they lived, how, when, where and why they died. They are not some specimen we have to study to find out things about how people lived 100-150 years ago. They are probably the great great great aunt or uncle of people now living!

[@cleoldbagtraallsorts3380]

I couldn't agree more.

[@zazuzazz5419]

I agree. Bury the children. 🕊

[@98Zai]

I suspect in many cases they were simply dug up under the cover of night to be used for education in medical school. I doubt people just allowed a government official swoop in to fetch grandma before the funeral. Men vem vet, det var ju lite vilda västern då.. och nu.

[@ashleykrampf7067]

So I wondered this when they were talking about DNA verification on the Spirit Cave Man... Would it be feasible to put the remains' DNA out there, like on Ancestry.com or some such site so if that was my great great great uncle/aunt, I could know that's where they are and possibly advocate for them? I know it's possible, at least in some cases. Would the museums care if a blood relative that far removed wanted to give the remains a proper burial? Just a thought

[@travelingfloridianteddy4708]

@@ashleykrampf7067 That is an interesting thought. As someone who doesn't really have a clear picture of what my family tree looks like, I know I would appreciate a heads up if an ancestor were on display somewhere so I could: A. Learn more about them, and B. If it was not their express wish, find a way to bring them "home". I think having their DNA on record on Ancestry or create a database specifically for that would be beneficial to many groups. However, I can only speak for myself and my own experiences/beliefs/thoughts.

[@nahtl7]

I took a break my museum studies grad school readings to watch my 2 favorite youtubers talk about museums!!!! No regrets!!! I would love to see another Caitlin/Emily collab!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@OcotilloTom]

Good luck finding a job with that.

[@amandaleighmoser]

When your break from 'Museum Studies' is more museum studies I say you've chosen your degree focus well!!! For a long time I wanted to study to become a museum curator, but my artistic pursuits won out instead... I have so much respect for you coming as far as you have in your education (grad school? **in so much awe**) I wish you all the fortune and blessings on your journey!

[@Liv-sz8rv]

Tom Boyte that was my experience; got my masters in museum studies and now work in financial tech! Was still a fun postgrad to do though, loads of my course colleagues have found great jobs in museums.

[@kelseyburd9690]

a friend of mine was on the tribal council that was responsible for getting the Spirit Cave Man back and reburying him. they're still emotional about it.

[@anemix1005]

That case really moved me because of their decision of saying "he's one of us, we want him to rest where he is supposed to stay". I live in the state where Julia Pastrana was finally taken back to and the situation was more of a "political pride" thing. The person actually doing everything wasn't even from here and the vast majority of the inhabitants don't know who Julia was. I'm afraid to say that even now she would have been victim of abuse, most people here are very ignorant and close minded. So basically the government was just making everything look nice but they wouldn't have done it themselves. Instead you have a community asking back one of his ancestors and finally getting him back. The feelings i got from both of the videos Caitlin uploaded we're significantly different despite being more familiar with Julia Pastrana.

[@peacenow42]

I am emotional about the dead animals in the video.

[@octopodesrex]

FINALLY!! ..this still has Bentham’s Head on it.

[@MissLilyputt]

Jacob Land best comment!

[@leonorgrandle5960]

I peed my pants when I first saw that. I now wait in Hope's of seeing Benthams head pop up.

[@slytheringingerwitch]

If it doesn't show I will be so disappointed.

[@elizabethbigback2344]

No way! My mouth dropped when I saw this video come up. Two of my favorite smarty pants women in the same video!!!! 😍

[@rayhirst8182]

Thank you for the video, a really important issue for us living in Australia. Aboriginal people lost there land then the sovereignty over their bodies of their relatives. No easy answers but a good faith discussion between institutions and the communities from around the world who have lost so much, where we let those communities speak for them selves. We may not like what we hear but if we don't listen, are repeating the mistakes of the past. So pleased its an issue people are thinking about . PS. also love the earrings.

[@ephemera...]

raymediasa I agree my fellow Aussie.

[@hayleygullett]

^^ this!

[@itwasagoodideaatthetime7980]

I belive that the British Natural History Museum returned the Aboriginal remains that they had in their collections back in 2011. amp.abc.net.au/article/10943254 & a museum in Germany did the same in April last year. www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-47934971 Most museum's are trying to reconcile their collections & return the remains of the dead home. But there's still a long way to go yet.

[@sarahrichardson7378]

Melbourne museum has returned all indigenous remains and refuses to display human remains now.

[@chaeburger]

I am thrilled to see my favorite two creators talking about this subject. I work in the archaeological division of a natural history and culture museum where I am surrounded by repatriation work every day. For example, just yesterday we hosted the entirety of the Cherokee government to talk about our work in the museum. I have been a part of every step of the NAGPRA process. Something that you didn't really touch on and that is something that I, as a person working in repatriation, is that there are lots and lots of people in academic circles that are heavily resistant to NAGPRA, repatriation, or restricting access to human skeletal remains. But there are lots more scientists who believe that scientific advancements are more important than the consent of a person who's been dead for a thousand years. It is incredibly frustrating when you, as a museum, place restrictions and policies in place and visiting researchers actively circumvent those policies. Most of these are from older generations, like Dr. Bill Bass of UTK's Body Farm who believes that he holds ownership of human skeletal remains he excavated from South Dakota in the 1960's. His reasoning being that since those remains belong to the Arikara, a group of people he believes to not exist anymore, he gets to keep them and use them for his own purposes. (The Arikara are not extinct, by the way.) The latest example from my museum, being that a biological archaeologist/paleopathologist came in to study an individual with a rare and unique pathology. We have a strict policy of NO PHOTOS. The scientist, a (formerly) trusted researcher, took some anyway and then used those photos in her article published in a medical journal. This article (photos included) was featured by Forbes Science and went viral. Those photos were attributed to the museum, not the researcher. Our curator spent that whole day on the phone with tribal representatives trying to put the fire out. It was a nightmare.

[@thebrainscoop]

Thank you for sharing this! The idea that museums shouldn't even be having these conversations publicly also has its roots in some academics believing they know best, and to open the door for public opinion on the subject you're democratizing such repatriation decisions in a way that would force them to relinquish some control.

[@sirdavidr6064]

Scientific advancement absolutely is more important than someone who died thousands of years ago.

[@johndemeritt3460]

@@sirdavidr6064 , is it? What science are we advancing, and whose interests are we advancing? In the Western world, we've decided that science is more important than "native" knowledge. Western science has decided -- much to the benefit of and by scientists -- that individual, family, or community values and processes are of less importance than the "pure" pursuit of "knowledge". Before going out on the "Scientific advancement absolutely is more important than someone who died thousands of years ago" limb, consider what your successors might think and feel if, a thousand years after your death, your remains were taken from whatever disposition you had chosen and put on display for others.

[@ephemera...]

Somar Jela Science can’t do research on bodies living or dead without the consent of the living individual or remaining family. That is the current ethical standard. Why shouldn’t that standard be extended to everyone?

[@iliftthingsupandputthemdow4364]

I recently started working at the local Natural History Museum, and i must admit it was a bit disheartening to hear they would no longer be displaying exhibits which contain human remains such as those of Egypt and whatnot. It's not that i disagree that the manner in which they were acquired was questionable at best and grave robbing at worst. However, i noticed there was someone who was also in my group who was very vocal about the manner in which the animal mounts were acquired (hunting) and it made me like yes its sad they were killed to be put in a museum. But at what point do we draw a line? As i can imagine that instead of being ashamed of how these artifacts and animals were gotten perhaps we might include as a portion of the exhibit our relationship to these things and perhaps how our views have changed over the years. Use these to highlight how we in the west have determined its okay to display certain items and others not. I don't think that an institution based in Education and history ought to disregard its initial purpose because it is has a difficult and problematic past.

[@Orandu]

Maintaining respect in context is so important. In aerospace we have the question of how we treat vehicles in which people died. I’ve worked on recovered materials from both Challenger and Columbia. It’s still hard to talk about...

[@Acrowe]

one small point I would make as a native American about the Shoshone tribe that she is speaking of is a lot of the emotions that were shown had less to do with the actual person whose remains were returned and the victory and return itself. Native American tribes have always had to fight for things that are easily granted to other ethnic groups or Wasi'chu in general. In other words any victory in our eyes are very emotional because of a long hard fight that seems like it will never end. It's less about being Indian and more about just being human. Much Love!

[@emagneticfield]

I am 68 years and I am happy to realized that I can still donate my body to science. This way someone could learn something from physical vehicle that my soul no longer have a need for.

[@WarisAmirMohammad]

It's a collab to die for

[@nahte123]

Maybe off-topic, but I feel similarly about war. Who, while watching old military footage or a reenactment for example, consider the humanity of the people shown being killed?

[@pheart2381]

Thats a very good point!

[@GaelicCelt1990]

Whenever I see footage from WW2 of planes getting shot down, I often realise that I'm watching someone being killed. Old war footage is interesting, but you are watching lives being taken.

[@sophiejones7727]

me. Though the two cases are different. I know when I watch old military footage that I'm watching real people: just as I do when I see the news. Though do keep in mind with this footage that the people in it knew they were being filmed. Everyone knew the press was there and for what purpose the footage was taken. With a reenactment, I know that people were killed in the event depicted, but nobody was harmed in making of the footage. It is meant to be entertaining, and there's no reason not to be entertained by it.

[@MsSherrick]

Fantastic content with Caitlin, as always! My mother chose to donate her body to science, and had it arranged before she entered hospice care. I will say that as a family member, it was beautiful. To know that the tissue that used to hold my mother was being put to great use, as she desired, and the report later that she helped with 3 different medical studies, brought comfort to us in those months after she left. In particular because I have had the honor to spend time in a cadaver lab and learn so much from others who made the same choice. She sort of hoped to be fully dissected by students. However this story is only beautiful because of CONSENT.

[@Paldasan]

"Bring out your dead!" "Here's one." "Nine pence." "I'm not dead!"

[@mischa2643]

He’s not dead-he’s just pining for the fjords!

[@alybot2.059]

I feel happy! I feel happy!

[@amywebb4586]

"You will be soon enough!" Gotta love a Monty Python reference!

[@ballinangel3231]

THIS COLLAB EXTENDED MY LIFE SPAN

[@mattbough]

This is an absolutely wonderful, insightful and thought-provoking video. I’ve often wondered if the Egyptian mummies that are everywhere in Western museums would really have wanted to be gawked at thousands of miles from their homeland where their religion stated they needed to be buried in order to enjoy the afterlife. Does the length of time someone is dead erode the importance of their personal wants and beliefs? I have to give a big, warm thumbs up to Emily for bravely and openly evaluating her past self’s attitudes and behaviour. A person with less character would have become defensive and reactive. Her authentic mix of effervescence and wisdom are what make Brain Scoop such a joy to watch. Cheers!

[@PotooBurd]

Can we take a moment to address their psychic fashion connection-

[@improvised_hominin]

For context, I'm a bioanthropology student who has excavated archaeological human remains (in a Caribbean context) and I continue to wrestle with all of this. I appreciated your willingness to learn and to listen to the concerns of decendant populations who have claims to these remains. I especially appreciated your honestly in claiming that while there have been drastic improvements in the last ten years, anthropologists and curators could still do better. A place you could expand on in the future is barriers to repatriation, such as funding for reburial. A lot of communities in my province don't have the monetary resources to accept human remains from institutions.

[@willcrago4463]

As soon as I saw Caitlin, I got excited. Such a great educator and advocate!!!

[@PMElfman79]

I saw the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County's presentation of the Field Museum's Mummies exhibit when it was on display. I felt that the exhibit was done very tastefully and respectfully. Photography was not allowed on cases that featured human remains. It was very educational on historical human burial practices, explaining the differences between how Peru mummified their dead versus Egypt, showing the differences in Egyptian sarcophagi amongst classes, etc. I admit I felt very sad when I saw a toe peeking out of mummification wrapping for a moment. I wondered at the time how they would react knowing their remains would end up in a glass case for people to examine. Seeing that toe brought it home that I was looking at a genuine human being who lived a life thousands of years before I was even a thought. But I think this is a really great conversation to have and I think it will be good for museums moving forward to think more consciously about what they display, how they display it, and the proper steps that they should take to securing human remains in the future should they continue to do so.

[@marandaward1663]

PMElfman79 I have a question. How did they police people taking pictures of the mummies? I know that sounds dumb but I’m really curious. I’m glad to hear it was handled with respect!

[@museummarg]

i would pay good money to see y’all talk about this with several POC as well !! I love you both so much

[@josiepoharama9574]

This was a truly great conversation, as someone in New Zealand of both Maori and European descent, I find it really interesting to hear discussions of how to best go about repatriation. I liked how there's a discussion in the video and in comments of the intricacies of the process, since it does have to be taken case by case, which takes time and resources. I think there are a lot of different solutions, especially considering that there are a diversity of opinions even within indigenous groups. Obviously repatriation is complex when you get into the details of how and to who and in which manner. I would really be interested to know your opinion/how a museum might approach the case of returning artifacts to nations that are currently experiencing conflict or are in a volatile sociopolitical state. Though returning these items to the people who have greatest claim to cultural artifacts is ideal, I personally think that a museum also has a responsibility to ensure that valuable historic objects remain safe or are being placed in a safe environment. I am also hesitant about making the base assumption that science and education are the highest possible good over a tribe, nation or minority's claim to their heritage. (10 years of youtube -and a bunch of those watching Caitlin and Emily's videos- and this is my first ever comment on the site... heady times)

[@hayleygullett]

Josie Poharama Boost!

[@fionnagrant6636]

I'm also from NZ, but all my roots are from the colonial side, so it was really great to hear from you.

[@llamafromspace]

Really well said!

[@emmatenbrinke9545]

Hey Josie, I have sort of an answer for you. I study art history, especially museum studies, and wrote about the repatriation issue concerning human bodies for papers. To return an object, body or artifact from a museum collection to a country or community in turmoil is kind of a tricky subject. There are very recent cases of European museums refusing to repatriate artifacts, because the sociopolitical situation in the country requesting it. Not because the museum doesn't want to return it, but because they consider the outcome of the repatriation to be a negative one where the artifact could harmed, destroyed or lost forever. On the surface this may seem like an unkind move in a world eager to work past colonial issues, but from the museum's perspective they have to take into consideration where and to who the object goes when they let go of it. If it's a safe and stable one, great! If the place the artifact goes to is unsafe for a serious reason the museum could decide to hold off on repatriation, until a safer time or just flat out deny the request at that time. (When I write a serious reason think of an active warzone or there being no appropriate means of care to conserve for the artifact, or the artifact could become a hostage/victim in a struggle) That's it in a tiny nutshell. If you want to know more, just ask :)

[@erinsmaill8160]

I second this

[@jordang7479]

I can't really remember a specific time I've seen human remains in a museum. My general memory of my reaction was similar to how I react to non-human remains, in that I thought about how odd it was that this once living breathing being is now in a place for me to look at and learn from. I usually end up thinking about what their life might have been like and if they had families that mourned them. I get misty eyed and have to move on to some other area so I don't end up sobbing in the middle of the museum.

[@anne-droid7739]

I went to see Body Worlds in Chicago in 2005. As I was leaving, there was a woman crouched on the floor just outside the exit, sobbing as though her heart had broken. I was surprised and touched. This remains with me as one of the most striking images of an unusually striking exhibit, and still influences my perception of human nature. So, my friend, sometimes getting misty-eyed in the middle of a museum can do a great deal of good...and I think that ability to humanize what you see is even more important now, with social media providing such an unprecedentedly widespread platform for interpersonal cruelty. Being moved is such a positive thing! I salute your kind heart. :)

[@junbh2]

I remember seeing a mummy in a museum as a child.

[@censusgary]

I chortled at the picture of Caitlin and Emily with the caption, “Mortician recruits teenagers at Vidcon.” Since Caitlin is the mortician, I guess that makes Emily the teenager. Not that you aren’t perpetually youthful, Em, but I thought you had left teenagerhood behind some time ago. OK, I know that’s a silly comment on a serious video, but half a dozen folks have already posted about Emily’s earrings, so there.

[@rebeccajames7487]

I remember my first time seeing a mummy and even though I was incredibly curious I felt such sadness that this was a real person in front of me. Ever time since I’ve felt more and more sad about these peoples remains being in a museum instead of in their intended resting place. I asked a member of staff in a museum once and they were so dismissive and basically directed me to their website and said they didn’t desecrate the remains because the ones they had on display were still in sealed coffins. When I asked what about the others they have in museum storage she laughed and said ‘just read the website’. I was so disgusted and saddened especially because one of the mummies they had was a baby 😢 So thank you to these guys for talking so openly and working hard to ensure their humanity is remembered ❤

[@christinaoconnor1523]

Hello Emily and Caitlin! I am a Deathling who's recently tuned in to Caitlin's "? A Mortician" channel ----- This conversation is perfect, IMHO! Your advocacy for consent in whichever situation a body may end up in IS Admirable! I was so privileged to view the Body Worlds exhibit in Philly some years ago, and gave serious consideration to the donation of my body to them . I wonder if they're still accepting? Bravo on a wonderful job tackling a difficult topic - I hope a lot of people listen up! You are definitely heading n the right direction in educating the public on death issues. Oh, and I love those jade-y rings, lobster earrings, polka dots amongst all the skulls & animals!!! Cheers!

[@whodapole]

First off - Jeremy Bentham :D I also saw a documentary where a guy who had covered his body in tattoos had asked his friend to tan his skin after he died, and now I think his son displays the preserved artworks on his wall or something... Planned preservation and display can be awesome! I personally get weirded out about modern archaeological digs that cover human burial sites, and have no plan to re-inter the remains where possible - I'm sure the idea of your loved ones being dug up in 200 years time for science would make some people uncomfortable. Yes, research is very important and hugely interesting (as a historian myself, we wouldn't know half of what we do without studying grave goods etc), but once we've learned what we can, I believe the remains should be reburied if possible. I mean, if their graves have been dug up for a parking lot, obviously you can't put them back where you found them, but imagine a museum gravesite - how cool would it be to document how remains were reburied according to their cultures, and then be able to tour grounds where people from different eras were reburied? Respect for remains and human wishes could still be educational. Going hand in hand with repatriation of human remains is the repatriation of artefacts in general - in what situations should goods be physically returned, or if it would be safer for the goods to remain in the hands of say, the British Museum, where they can be properly displayed and preserved, but with the proviso that they are stated to be on permanent loan from whichever country they originated from. Obviously religious goods stolen from sites that are still of cultural significance today (Nepal for example) should be returned where possible, but should goods be returned to areas that are currently suffering armed conflicts, or are not able to preserve the goods properly? Conversations about repatriation are ongoing, and concerns for the survival of the artefacts should always be a high priority. What do others think?

[@bindi194]

Fredegund Fan the Greek government is currently fighting to have stolen artefacts returned they e gotten support from Germany. The British are being pricks about it

[@sophiejones7727]

here in the US anyway, when one discovers a body one has to abandon digging until arrangements for what to do with the bodies are worked out with whomever are the closest heirs. This process is not usually shown on the news or shows, but that hardly means it doesn't happen. Those who fail to do this face pretty harsh consequences including being banned from professional organizations and even facing legal consequences (depending on what exactly they did). Mandatory reburial is not the way to go, because that may not be the wishes of those identified as the closest heirs of the deceased. Not all cultures even bury their dead. Even among those who do, opinion differs about whether an excavated body CAN be reburied. The important thing is not what ultimately happens to the body, but that consent from the living heirs is obtained.

[@LadyxBleu]

When I was a kid, my favorite museum had an Egyptian mummy hand encased in glass. There were holes in the glass that you could lean over to smell the hand. This area of the museum was geared towards kids so the idea was to be like, "EW THIS CENTURIES OLD HAND SMELLS GROSS!" In retrospect, not the most respectful way to treat a body.

[@erinhaury5773]

I am both horrified and intrigued. I can't decide if seven year old me would have sniffed it or not, but as an adult the idea of a museum having a display like that is disturbing.

[@gerardtrigo380]

My friend, a full blooded Cherokee who also happens to be a scientists, disagrees with the policy of cultural artifacts and remains from museums. He points to the flaw of the conclusion of the DNA test coming back as being genetically related, meaning that they were members of the same tribe. They stole women to make their wives from the enemy tribes. Even among enemies, the genetics would be similar in the same region. That body they buried with so much reverence, may have been a formidable foe of their ancestors. He feels that keeping these bodies and objects in museums, provides more value to the tribes and humanity as a whole, than putting them back into the ground.

[@censusgary]

Good points. One fact I’d like to emphasize is that a genetic correspondence (especially a distant one) is not at all the same as belonging to the same family, tribe, culture, nationality, religious community, or even race, as those categories are socially (not biologically) defined.

[@davidonfim2381]

I agree. Related to those points, it is disgustingly racist to assume that just because someone belongs to a particular group, that they automatically hold the same beliefs and values as that group. That they literally belong (in the sense of ownership, not in the sense of being a part of) to that group. The whole practice of repatriation and whatnot just promotes ingroup/outgroup thinking and animosity.

[@myothersoul1953]

I think your friend is right. Of course the remains were native american. After a few, maybe a dozen, generations the ties with the living are no longer personal. It could also be argued the remains are associated with all of humanity and all of humanity has an interest in human history. That one small group can deprive everyone else of the knowledge that could be derived from them seem very short sighted.

[@TheMenasaur]

This whole thread is whack. If a nation wants remains--or ANYTHING ELSE that was stolen from them--back from a museum, then that nation should get the remains back. Caitlyn mentions in the video about consent, and historically speaking nations have never consented to their dead being displayed. Seriously get your heads on straight. Trust First Nations to know what to do--on a rolling, case-by-case basis--with their honoured dead.

[@RedThorn00]

@@TheMenasaur I agree with you. Even whether or not they are biologically related, the sentiment should be that these cultures can honor their ancestors, or even just people found on their land, in the way that they feel the need to do.

[@OliDaChilla]

"Bring out your dead!" *Monty python intensifies*

[@anne-droid7739]

You seem like someone who might enjoy comparing these two: www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51223828 and kzbin.info/www/bejne/e4fTl4huqJuNn5o

[@itwasagoodideaatthetime7980]

@@anne-droid7739 The fist link is very intriguing & relevant. But what the hell was that second link about?!? Seriously it made no sense whatsoever. 😕

[@anne-droid7739]

@@itwasagoodideaatthetime7980 Compare the sounds. :)

[@anne-droid7739]

@@itwasagoodideaatthetime7980 I think it's a pretty good bet that someone's going to use the ancient priest's voice in music. In fact, the story has been out for several days now, so someone probably already has.

[@rhisands2063]

Bring out your dead, that means you too Jones and Chapman!

[@AlucardPeach]

My best friend just filed paperwork donating his body when he dies I was one of the witnesses to sign off on it. He's always wanted to do this.

[@MichiruEll]

For very old bodies, there's also a question of who actuelly "has a claim". If we think of Lucy, for example, don't we all have a claim? Or let's imagine the body of someone from a tribe who later divided into two tribes. What if these two tribes now have different wishes and beliefs about their ancestors? Who gets to decide? It's very complicated. Should there be a time limit to repatriation? I don't know.

[@davidonfim2381]

Yes, there should be a time limit- If they weren't part of your immediate family, you don't own them. You CERTAINLY shouldn't own the human remains of someone you didn't even have a clue existed, whose name (or potentially even sex/culture) you don't even know.

[@sam4330]

@@davidonfim2381 But like she said in the video, some cultures grieve people they never knew as if they did know them. Our cultures have different meanings of what it is to be close to or related to someone.

[@junbh2]

To me the most important thing is trying to understand the wishes of the person whose body it was. Sometimes we have fewer clues than other times about what their beliefs or cultural practices around death were, but we should be trying to the extent possible to figure out what they would have wanted done with their body. E.g. if their body was found carefully buried, or if most bodies from their society we find were buried a certain way, they probably cared a lot about being buried, and about being buried that specific way.

[@davidonfim2381]

@@sam4330 Yes, but why should we forego increasing humanity's knowledge and moving the human species forward because of that? Do you think that just the mere existence of those beliefs somehow makes them worthy of having everyone else bend over backwards to validate them? When the large hadron collider was being built, many people around the world suffered from a great deal of anxiety and distress because they thought it was dangerous. At least one person even committed suicide as a result. Should we have stopped the construction of the LHC, therefore validating, encouraging, or endorsing those kinds of unreasonable and unfounded beliefs?

[@rachael501]

@@davidonfim2381 That's easy to say when it isn't your beliefs being violated. Indigenous people in the Americas have faced centuries of oppression and continue to do so. That trauma is intergenerational and was happening at the same time white people were digging up these remains and putting them on display in natural history museums as examples of a "dying people". Indigenous human remains in museums and a legacy of white supremacy might seem unrelated but one is a product of the other. White supremacy and racism are often only talked about in the USA as it relates to enslaved black people but that's not the whole of the story, colonialism and land theft plays a large roll in creating "whiteness". Likewise the idea of "increasing humanity's knowledge" is itself shaped by colonialism. Whose knowledge system is the one which matters, whose is cast off as superstition and myth? Some communities are okay with remains being held by museums, some very much aren't but the process of decolonialization requires that we (museum workers) ASK, that we get consent from and we work with the indigenous communities and let them tell their own stories and value indigenous knowledge systems, including how their dead are/are not meant to be treated. This is an incredibly complicated topic and one that can't really be well discussed in a comment of a youtube video but if you're interested I would recommend Eva Mackey's Unsettled Expectations and the story of the remains of Demasduit and Nonosabasut a Beothuk couple who now have no living ancestors because the entire Nation was killed by the late 1820s due to European diseases and continued violence and massacres by white settlers. Their remains were stolen from their graves and taken to Scotland a 7/8 years after they were buried.

[@PinkGrapefruit22]

I love both of your channels so much, and I'm so excited that this collab finally happened. It definitely did not disappoint! It's great to hear two people who really care about their areas of knowledge and who also really care about getting things right talk about such a thorny issue. Thank you for making this video

[@Tinyvalkyrie410]

This was the video that introduced me to Ask a Mortician. I honestly can’t believe I hadn’t come across her earlier since this stuff is right up my ally. Anyway, I ended up having a conversation about the ethics of museums with a friend, and wanted to track this down again to share with her. It was definitely worth a second viewing (especially now that I have obsessively dived into everything Caitlin) and it is going into my short list of links to pull out of my pocket at occasions where educating or reminding people of these important topics. Anyway, both you ladies have been critical to my exploration and nuanced education of all sorts of topics and I look forward of years more with the two of you expanding my mind with each video.

[@fionakaiser9870]

This is the best crossover episode ever!!!

[@emjenkins464]

I feel as though this directly affects my view and reaction to human remains in a museum environment. I don't react well to ancient Egyptian remains, but they are largely displayed away from their homeland and against their customs and practises. And I had similar reactions to the Pompeii plaster casts and Sauschenhausen camp mortuary, again places where bodies are/were kept against their religious customs and practises. While the remains of the slave in the Roman baths museum in Bath evokes no reaction as he lived well (for a slave) and was buried in ordinance with his customs before being found and displayed with dignity...

[@cait_o_saurus]

Two of my absolute favourite people collaborating, and as always handing complex topics with such care, attention and respect. I am so happy to be a part of both of your wonderful communities, and I can't wait to see more work from the both of you 💕

[@krice66]

I can’t express how excited I was when I saw the title of this video! Yay yay yay!!! This was a very eloquent and respectful conversation, I appreciate it!

[@ChickenPermission617]

The collaboration I’ve wanted but never knew I needed. Love this.

[@lavahead146]

My two favorite channels colliding?! I have been blessed on this day. Brain scooping deathlings unite!!

[@Bambammetje]

HERE!

[@ronmcc100]

Great conversation! I'm a fan of Caitlin Doughty and her works, and as a born and bread Chicagoan, I'm also a big fan of the Field Museum! Thanks to all for putting this together. I'm looking forward to seeing more of this channel.

[@LymeDiseaseRadio]

LOVING this format!!! I hope you both continue these conversations. They are fascinating and educational and not only dispels many old belief systems but also opens our minds to more ethical and moral views. Thank you! I look forward to more.

[@timothyhansen7026]

Emily and Caitlin, thanks very much for so humbly and unashamedly discussing these issues. Dignity and consent are so crucial, and yes, dynamically complex, but so important to discuss. It's encouraging to see educated and scientific professionals honor the values of non-western and/or non-modern perspectives. And it's encouraging to see that the dignity of other persons both living and deceased is a priority for both you, and I applaud you both for having the courage to say that you don't have all the answers (and even more to admit that you or your colleagues may have offered deficient answers before), and despite that lack of complete assuredness of opinion to still be unwavering in what you know you can say regardless of the grey areas surrounding those points. My own perspective is affected by the fact that I am a religious person, and I feel that any & all bodies should be treated with care and respect but I am also an artist and have benefited from biology classes and cadaver lab. I tend to be personally repulsed by the idea of use of another's remains for entertainment; almost to the point where I would approve complete repatriation; but I feel education is important. And I still feel that the advances that dissections and archaeological studies have offered to improve the quality of life for the currently alive is well worth respectful study. I am as equally offended by Gnosticism masquerading as science that denies the rights of any human once deceased as I am offended by a blanket prohibition of discovery and scientific advancement. So I definitely appreciate the points you made to acknowledge that the boundary between curiosity and entertainment is a boundary that we should not assume we have figured out, or that the boundary is still right where we last saw it. I'd be interested to see either or both of your channels discuss the ethics or the changing history of ethics related to what prices are considered acceptable to pay for discovery related to human life and human death. Ps: Emily, I saw your video on the preserved Egyptian remains that had insects in their brain matter. I wasn't disturbed by your tone or conduct at the time of viewing it in any way; but again I applaud you for the courage and humility to admit the possibility that perhaps you could have handled it better. You've given me something to consider in my own approach.

[@reginaromsey]

“Dem Bones, Dem ones, Dem Dry Bones”. Talking about corpses and Caitlin says “I’m not at the table”.

[@Star30009]

Yes! Two of my favorite youtubers doing a collab! Caitlin and Emily are two of people I admire so much. They both have shaped my life so much and brought me so much knowledge.

[@ciarengeorgia908]

Absolutely loved this! It's so interesting to think about consent when it comes to these matters. I think you both did a great job of sharing your knowledge, but also the idea that there isn't really one right answer or one right way to think about these problems.

[@emeraldgypsyheart]

I was recommended this video. I LOVE Ask a Mortician/Caitlin. She’s help me understand death and the deaths practices. If I would have known the option of caring for my dad after his death in 2010. When my mother passes I want to care for her as a final tribute... if that makes sense.

[@mrdrprof8402]

Holy crap! Brain scoop is back with a vengeance and with one of my other favorite people on the platform?! Heck yeah!!

[@rickyfleuridor7811]

This whole video is so fascinating. You both carried yourself well while holding this conversation. Thank you.

[@Anna-ky7ix]

I loved this conversation! My daughter just tonight told me about your KZbin channel and she knows how much I love science and factual interesting things from sharks to mummies, to the history of fashion. So, im surprised that I never thought about this but, I was so on board and even though I didn't think of it before ( I guess I fell into the category that the museums must have already undoubtedly addressed it, but, of course I recognize now that was a silly assumption), it resonated immediately as yes, of course this should be being done and certainly looked at on a case by case situation as the issues arise with the remains in museum collections. I love that you opened this door for me and I think you did a very great job at presenting and delving into many of the nuances of what is a very difficult and large range of potential issues to solve over many years.

[@LaurenRaaijmakers]

Yes!! This is so interesting! My boyfriend wrote his thesis about this subject. I made the photographs and we went to different museums. The Africa museum in Tervuren did some interesting this at the entrance of the museum, after that it got gradually worse. Even though they were still not where they need to be, they’re on the right track. The museum of Leiden was really bad. The mummies and religious objects were disrespected. That museum was so cynical. If you’re from the Netherlands or Belgium and you’re interested in this topic, I do recommend to go and see for yourself. Have a debate and think about it. X

[@sweetiedahling8137]

I loved the museum in Leiden as a kid because of the fossils. Once it’s safe to come back home (fingers crossed for next summer) I’d love to go back (especially with this message in mind). Did your boyfriend cover Het Tropenmuseum as well? Does it even still exist? Another childhood memory that didn’t age well I’m afraid..

[@czeus6958]

Haven't even started the video and already liked the video. Caitlin and Emily collab this year is starting off great!

[@morganzola3]

That opossum is amazing! I rescued a white opossum like that from being shot here in Wisconsin where I live.

[@veronicaperez5058]

This was so educational. I have never even considered these topics, but this youtube video popped up in my reccomended and here I am. I am a high school student and videos like this are so important. People really do need to be shown whats acceptable in unfamiliar environments. You guys approached it in an amazing manner, thank you.

[@yuriavila2250]

Such an interesting, fascinating and important topic to discuss.

[@Janet9148]

TWO OF MY FAVORITE KZbinRS OMGGGGGGGGG

[@srpilha]

Fascinating conversation. Thank you to both of you for doing such a great job of bringing more of this conversation to the public.

[@davidrothfels9295]

I'm studying archaeology currently and I really loved your perspectives on this really difficult topic. Because I am studying archaeometry specifically, which often deals with human remains, I get asked questions a lot about my opinions on this and I am always surprised how much of the discussion is centered around the current politics of the situation rather than the remains of the person themselves. I think focusing on the fact that these are people with entire lives behind them who had their own opinions and thoughts allows people to approach the conversation with a more compassionate angle and gets closer to the real issue. I think respecting consent is the best way to approach this problem and loved your view of how the society and culture you are raised in greatly affects this discussion as well. Love your videos Caitlin! Thank you both for this!

[@Azzarinne]

"There's still time!" ** video ends **

[@1of8billion5]

I STRIVE TO BE AS AMAZING AS THESE TWO, THEY ARE MY IDOLS

[@eyesofmuffin]

Honestly a beautiful and important conversation. Some of my two favourite channels because of their informative, helpful and interesting content and their entertaining and accessible presentation styles. And here; a collaboration. ✨Magical✨

[@MrCarlGregson]

I really appreciate how thoughtful and introspective each of you are about this topic. This level of consideration needs to become our new normal as a society.

[@NewMessage]

Bonding over dead things... Gotta love science folks!

[@Margar02]

Gaaaaaaqh my two favorite ladies in science and sociology today! You've been friends this whole time???? I am literally dead. Caitlin, help!

[@johannweber5185]

What might make things even more difficult is that within the groups associated with the remains there will often be a wide variety of different opinons on how to deal with scientific research on or public display of these remains.

[@randynovick7972]

Always nice to see you two talking together -- about anything really. It could be a discussion about favorite office supplies or frozen yogurt or cinema and it wouldn't make any difference. You two do a great job of pulling interesting perspectives out of each other.

[@edwardlupella6758]

Came for the interesting discussion, stayed for the incredible lobster earrings.

[@MazaB]

I remember the first time I visited the Louvre in Paris and realizing it was not respectful to display mummies, as it went against their belief. But studying them is the reason why we know it is not ok! So thank you for having this discussion and opening our minds to think about our relationship to human remains and how we can still learn about us while still being respectful

[@okillebrew]

This was a beautiful conversation and I love both of you so much. I’m so grateful for this information and clarification

[@EmmaHollen]

This conversation was fascinating to listen to. Instead of disguising your friendship into a more formal exchange, your let the discussion evolve in a natural and organic way that allowed it to get really deep and interesting right off the bat. Though I didn't expect anything less from Caitlin and Emily, the importance given to respect for the deceased, their culture, their wishes and their community, was truly appreciated. Even more importantly, recognising the educational and curiosity-satiating value of such displays with honesty, candidly addressing the subject instead of shamefully hiding it was immensely valuable. Thank you! :)

[@cjmills88]

Oh my goodness, I love this duo.

[@ambulocetusnatans]

Best collaboration since Adam Savage and V-Sauce! Totally unexpected! Wait, is that a Leucistic opossum? This keeps getting better!

[@pineapplemilkify]

You have no idea how excited I was to watch this. Gave me a lot of food for thought, in a very respectful manner. I love seeing civil dialogues like this one.

[@EMTwombly]

This is an excellent video to initiate an intelligent conversation about these topics! It is so important to recognize the issues that you have brought up and to discuss them with our loved ones and friends. Thank you!

[@leiderdawg]

I'm shocked by how many human remains museums have.

[@marcoqueme2868]

when I tell you i screamed!!!! this crossover is even better than all of the seasons of Drag Race.... combined!!

[@rn2787]

As someone who graduated from an archaeology program and is from marginalized groups I have had several troubling encounters with this. I ended up quitting my field school because of lies, unethical behavior, and lack of consent from the actual tribes that were in the area. Because it was private property and not associated with a federally funded program or museum it was legal, but I couldn't stay after I figured out how much misinformation was given to everyone involved and how the director mislead everyone. It was thousands of dollars and several lost credits, but I couldn't live with myself if I continued to be involved once I knew the truth. You will lose a lot of money, time, effort, and even opportunities by doing the right thing, but it's better than hating yourself for being part of that.

[@WanderingWhisperer29]

Absolutely hooked on this discussion from start to finish. Excellently presented and fascinating to watch. Thank you.

[@michaelpytel3280]

Thanks, Emily & Caitlin for this video. How do you address consent for remains that are orphaned ( no relatives to speak for them ), maybe very ancient ones like Neanderthals or Turkana boy, Lucy etc. ?

[@thebrainscoop]

That's a question that came up with the person from Spirit Cave. With remains -that- old (10,000 years) genetic testing can only do so much to reveal who they were-- thousands of human generations have passed since that person was alive. So the genetic testing confirmed that person was Native American, but can't pinpoint which tribal community they would be most closely affiliated with today. The Paiute-Shoshone had to rely on other circumstantial evidence (e.g. where the body was found) to argue the relationship of the Spirit Cave man with their tribe today.

[@thebrainscoop]

I guess I didn't really answer your question (since the Spirit Cave man was 'claimed' {is there a better word})-- for so-called orphaned remains I think the question comes back to making sure, even without living advocates, those individuals are treated with the same level of respect when it comes to their display, or making them available for research. It's making the museums accountable for their care.

[@suzannecooke2055]

I don't understand how Native American (and presumably tribal affiliation) can be genetically determined by archeologists but not by commercial ancestry DNA tests. Genetic science is an evolving discipline. Should human remains be re-tested periodically as science advances? Not just for repatriation, but for the evolution and distribution of other genetic traits.

[@KateKatastrophe]

If my body ends up illegally in a museum, leave me there.

[@Sharonmxg]

Wow, you two lovely ladies are two of my favorite KZbinrs. I love both your shows. How cool that you are real life friends. I am truly fascinated by the work you both do. What a treat to get a video of you together!

[@ashleyfurr]

Two of my favorite channels.... TOGETHER???? What a thing to wake up to, thanks guys! Great work as always ❤️❤️❤️

[@basdamhuis572]

I loved this from the moment I saw Caitlin.... and then I saw Emily's Lobster earrings. Best show ever

[@michaelbushee3968]

First off, love the video. I love the conversation taking place about consent of the dead and respect for the individual whose remains end up in museum collections. Question: what is the scientific community doing to carry those same considerations to dig sites and remains discovery? Is all the decolonization work done after the fact, or are scientists trying to contact people and get consent for disinternment in the first place?

[@thebrainscoop]

I don't have the answer to this question but I hope there's an archaeologist out here who does!

[@danielweed1548]

Love the polka dot twins! 🤗 I appreciated hearing you both talk about this subject. I think this is a conversation that every museum needs to have. Thank you for acknowledging both the inherent curiosity we have as humans while also recognizing how the dead should not be taken away from their families (I found out at a staff meeting yesterday that many of my coworkers at the Detroit Historical Society love your videos Caitlin!!)

[@MsArtsyGeek]

I could listen to this conversation for hours! Thank you for talking about such a difficult and important topic. I hope we can all continue to talk about it as the year goes on! :)

[@Azzarinne]

In terms of identifying ancestor species, where do we draw the line between remains that warrant contacting local indigenous groups and remains that "weren't people?" Is it just any anatomically modern human?

[@dylansimpson7831]

All human remains in the Americas are anatomical modern humans. No human species other than homo sapiens ever got to the Americas to our knowledge.

[@Tinyvalkyrie410]

I would love to see a discussion of this, since I don’t feel like I have a strong opinion.

[@davidonfim2381]

That assumes it is ever warranted to contact local indigenous groups. As if the human remains somehow belonged to them for some reason, even though most of the time nobody even knew they existed until someone else went in and found them. I find it offensive to immediately assume that human remains belong to a particular group or race of people. It's borderline racist. I think old human remains belong to all of humanity. They are part of the human story and can increase the knowledge of the entire human species.

[@tess6536]

@@davidonfim2381 I think the issue is less that the body of persons belonginh to a people and/or culture and more that an institution should claim ownership, outright or not, of that body, possibly profit from it and misrepresent that person or their culture. And as Emily said in the first half of this video, it's a question of marginalised peoples and cultures, so the issue is also about the traumatic history of stripping people of their humanity, culture and autonomy. There are instances where human remains have been used to further trivialise and marginalise cultures and peoples.

[@davidonfim2381]

@@tess6536 If those are the issues, then we should address those issues instead of making a new one. Don't want museums to profit from human remains? fine, limit what museums can do with them, so that they either pay a penalty (that then goes to benefit society in general) or only use them for research. If the problem is that some human remains are being used in ways that misrepresent certain people or cultures, fine- let's identify those cases and fix them. The latter has nothing to do with human remains in the first place, and giving them to a tribe or burying them doesn't do ANYTHING to fix the problem. People can be marginalized and misrepresented very easily without any human remains at all. Preventing them from being used for research (whose entire purpose is to clear up misunderstandings and to inform) is the very opposite of fixing the problem. Two wrongs don't make a right, and making the problem worse doesn't help anyone.

[@RadioMist]

Oh my goodness, my two favorite science people collaborating!?

[@ninjaahjumma]

This was the collab my soul was waiting for all along 😍😍😍

[@tflics]

What a fascinating conversation! Great video!