What the hell is going on in King Crimson's Frame by Frame??

"Death by drowning, in your own analysis". Those lyrics seem fitting as this week I'll delve into just what the hell is going on with the dual guitars in King Crimson's song "Frame by Frame", one of my personal favorites which I was fortunate enough to hear Adrian Belew perform on Cruise to the Edge (which explains the sunburn).
I apologise if this video is confusing and doesn't really explain anything, but to be fair I was confused myself. Let's take a look at this head-scratching riff.

[@helgijonsson3537]

So I don't know why this video blew up or why there's so many people commenting on it all of a sudden, but thanks, algorithm! I think I might start doing these videos again some day. If there's any song you know that blows your mind and you'd like to see me try to figure out how the hell it works, please let me know by replying to this comment! Thanks.

[@bobtheblob888]

Idk if you're still fielding suggestions but I'd love to see you break down some tool

[@antonstefanov2146]

This one, Sheltering sky and Perfect pair are my fav songs by KC

[@SSPspaz]

King Crimson's time signatures have always been Fripping ridiculous

[@stringwhore]

I see what u did thar

[@ronniefarnsworth6465]

And Belewolous once Adrian joined !! : D

[@johnhasso8908]

Frippadigous.

[@WhiteSploitationFavs]

Okay, this is complicated and hard to explain while high but... Imma take a shot. Hold my blunt. With 7/4 time, 7 is the number of beats in the measure, 4 represents 1/4, or quarter, notes, right? 13/8 would be 13 eighth (1/8th) note beats per measure, right? So in this case, 13/8 is created by shaving one 1/8th note off of 7/4, which in double time would be 14/8. Its 14/8 being played at the same time as 13/8, causing a one riff to fall behind in time. When the two riffs briefly realign, thats the equivalent of a race car falling so far behind that it gets lapped by the lead car, which they would be side by side, frame by frame. Oh... its a metaphor for life, always falling behind in time, except for brief moments when everything appears to be alright, before descending back into chaos, in an endless cycle that we have to endure frame by frame... oh, I get it! Okay... im high as hell right now, does any of that make sense? Who said math rock isnt fun?

[@mattridgley9095]

I don't know, man, I just don't know.

[@levig-man4103]

Hold my Beer i have to press the like Button on your comment

[@1000π]

this isnt math rock

[@WhiteSploitationFavs]

@@1000π it was a joke, dickweed. Why so serious? Smh

[@SterlingSimmons22]

Math rock is different genre. This is prog

[@WoWZeniks]

The timings are 7/8 for the lead and 13/8 for the second guitar.

[@itchieG]

WoWZeniks I can play this song on guitar just from listening and playing it by ear but I don’t really understand time signatures except just 4/4 what does 7/8 and 13/8 actually mean if you can explain it in words I don’t know but just thought I’d ask

[@WhiteSploitationFavs]

@@itchieG In 7/4 time, the 7 is the number of beats in the measure, 4 represents 1/4, or quarter, notes. 13/8 would be 13 eighth (1/8th) note beats. In this case, 13/8 is created by shaving one 1/8th note off of 7/4, which in double time would be 14/8. Its 14/8 being played at the same time as 13/8, causing a one riff to fall behind in time. When the two riffs briefly realign, thats the equivalent of a race car falling so far behind that it gets lapped by the lead car, and at that moment you have listened to the sound of the progression of a racecar being lapped, frame by frame. Its a metaphor for life, like we are constantly falling behind but we dont know it because every now and then everything seems like its in perfect harmony, before descending back into chaos, in an endless cycle until we die. Okay... im high as hell right now, does any of that make sense? Big ups from Birmingham, Alabama, where everyone is dumb but we have a firm grasp on music theory. #Salute

[@catfdljws]

more complex than that - it is Steve Reich inspired "phase shift". in one section they are both playing 7/8...and then after 4 measures Ade keeps going in 7, while Fripp drops a half-beat, and that's what puts them out of sync. they aren't out of sync initially. Discipline does this, too.

[@catfdljws]

and Ade demonstrated this in a solo interview one time a few years back during the Crimson ProjeKct days

[@randyhammill9021]

Richard Godwin In this context it’s really easier to think about the riff, rather than the underlying polymeter. Both parts are playing to the same pulse. One part is 7 8th notes long (7/8) and keeps repeating. The second part is that same 7 note part, and then the same pattern minus one note, in other words, it’s only 6 notes long. You could say it’s a measure of 7/8 followed by a measure of 6/8, but it’s easier to look at it as a complete pattern of 13 notes, or 13/8 because it’s 13 8th notes long. Both guitars continue to play the same 8th note patterns, on the same beats. It’s just that on every 14th note, the second guitar’s pattern shifts by one note. So it’s a 7/8 over 13/8 polymeter. You could say it’s 14/8 over 13/8, but the primary pattern sounds “complete” at the end of each 7 notes. I don’t know if that clears things up or not.

[@GeordieMcK]

This technique is called phasing. When you add or remove a note to a bar it creates this hypnotic effect. Pretty sure Robert Fripp was influenced by Steve Reich's compositions during the writing of discipline. You should listen to music for 18 musicians if you want to hear more like this.

[@thekout]

I see someone likes to watch Adam Neely

[@SterlingSimmons22]

It's called a Polyrhythm

[@GeordieMcK]

@@SterlingSimmons22 it isn't a polyrhythm as they don't fit in the same bar. It's more along the lines of polymeter

[@lightaces]

Indonesian Gamelan Orchestras is what he has said were his main influence.

[@cristauxfeur2560]

Pretty probable, I read once that Bobby and Ade met for the first time at a Steve Reich concert

[@c02615223]

When Frips hammers in with the part I can only describe as blublbublbulbblbublublublbulbulbublublublbulbulbulbu weererererererererererre bllulublublubulbulbubulbl thats mental too

[@helgijonsson3537]

Hahaha, oddly enough, I know exactly which part you are talking about! And yeah that's crazy, I tried playing it, my fingers are definitely not fast enough.

[@jensknudsen4222]

You mean this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aqjFfqN4ZtZ0mdU ?

[@tepidtooth8539]

I got the opportunity to talk with Adrian the other night, and I asked him about the dual guitar parts on Frame by Frame, and he said “oh it’s a Gamelan thing” (I think it was Gamelan) and he just told me how it’s a musical style where one person starts something and another person breaks off of it and starts playing something else over it and that’s basically how they came up with it. One of my favorite’s by them! So glad he played it last night, he just played his part though so it was really nifty!

[@denizb.6882]

Summary: Magic. Magic is what the hell is going on in King Crimson's 'Frame By Frame'.

[@helgijonsson3537]

Couldn't agree more!

[@HollowGolem]

The title track of Discipline does something similar.

[@leandrogulrt]

The correct note to escape is exactly the last one. A F# B F# C# B F# A F# B F# C# B (F#)

[@leandrogulrt]

Ok, I should have finished watching before commenting, but that's it. Fripp is directly inspired by composer Steve Reich. Check this out: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oqvOgHmAgq5on5o

[@lightaces]

Actually, it's the second to last note - the B.

[@EdwardBast]

The first use of phasing in King Crimson (that I'm aware of) is in Larks' Tongues in Aspic Part 1 - violin versus thumb piano in the intro, klaxon horns versus violin in the second iteration of the main theme. In Part 2 it's used more systematically at the climax where two different time signatures (5 against 8 in a 40 beat cycle?) are in play.

[@The.One.True.B]

The title track Discipline is incredible and takes this technique to a whole other level. The live version from 84 used for the Absent Lovers live album is fantastic, especially if you can find early 80s recordings when they didnt exactly nail it and see the contrast and how much it really takes to pull off such a song.

[@LenProbert]

This is not the King Crimson of 1968. This is the second redition of 1980. The only original member from the original King Crimson is Robert Fripp. The second guitarist is Adrian Belew and it is his interaction with Fripp's guitar that makes that album "Discipline" one of the greatest albums of the '80s.

[@ericjohnson6105]

More like the third, fourth or fifth iteration of King Crimson. If you go by lead singers you have Lake, Wetton and then Belew. But there is the Lizard/Islands era in between Lake and Wetton.

[@clivehorridge]

And of all time... may I add ❤️🇷🇴🇬🇧

[@stuffthings1417]

Some the 68 stuff is nice. I prefer the Discipline album style, overall.

[@hombrerusode40anos72]

King Crimson is Fripp's solo career backed by some awesome musicians

[@andyharman3022]

Two different time signatures. 6/8 and 7/8. Robert plays 7 bars of 6, and Adrian plays 6 bars of 7. That's how it goes out of sync, but after 42 beats, it comes back in sync, and they both play in 7/8 to end the song. There is an Adrian Belew video somewhere on YT where he demonstrates the passage.

[@mensamoo]

isn't that 14 and 13 notes?? (7 and 6.5 beats)

[@andyharman3022]

@@mensamoo Yep, you're right. It's 7/8 against 13/8. Adrian plays 13 measures of 7/8 while Robert plays 7 measures of 13/8.

[@sixmillionaccountssilenced6721]

@@andyharman3022 "Robert plays 7 measures of 13/8" Could it also be written as 13 measures of 13/16 though?

[@michaeloconnor8938]

Great explanation. Now please explain to me how Belew gets the elephant to talk. I have been wondering about that for 40 years.

[@MonoIce350s]

Watch his TED talk

[@SmellyBones]

Be careful what you wish for. My elephant won't shut up about 9/11 conspiracies.

[@nosided]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/m4ucZKWrmLOJeKs

[@peterthecoderd.1210]

There is a video on KZbin where he shows this. It's part if the series "Live in Frejus", but there are a few videos where he plays live.

[@reubenstewart7995]

Frame by frame is my favourite song of all time

[@HerbalistGuybrush]

no its not

[@alichscaleblood2019]

@@HerbalistGuybrush Shut up you absolute fucking clown

[@andrewballance4161]

Poignant, powerful. If zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance was a poem... wizards @ work.

[@newz-tube]

Great job. This was really fun to watch.

[@Emlizardo]

You cracked the code, congratulations! The title track to Discipline works the same way.

[@skortan]

There are two guitars playing the riff at 7/8, but at points one of them drops a note from the end, so it's playing 13/8, so it slowly desyncs by one note each time, until the second guitar's synced back up by it being a whole bar apart, then it continues on

[@vonclod123]

I can't wait to see whats done with this song on the Beat tour.

[@mejsjalv]

The concept behind the riff is not so hard to grasp, but the only way to play this one right is by not making a mistake, or rehearse it enough so you get familiarized with how the "trick" works and how the phase out and phase in sound like. Steve Reich made a piece with pretty much the same concept for two pianos in the late 60's, then adapted to other instruments. Same stuff... simple concept, but you must have such sharp focus to pull it off live with two musicians.

[@TheRealBalloonHead]

2022 now and that song still blows my mind.

[@toadcane]

almost exactly like 7empest intro. however, it's vice-versa really

[@randysavage7502]

if i remember correctly, 7empest was inspired partly by Frame by Frame

[@constanceabrasia1573]

matches the main 46&2 refrain rhythm too

[@georgetebbens3524]

Odd time signatures, like 7/8, are tricky as hell when everyone in the band is on the same meter. But, Christ Almighty, to mix meters is just beyond me.

[@thirstypilgrim97]

Frame by Frame is how you have to playback their video to figure out what Fripp is doing

[@danogden4291]

I recall reading something to the effect that Fripp repeats the first measure once, then twice, so that it may not be (the 7/8 7/8 pattern) against13/8, but (the 7/8 7/8 pattern) against 7/8 6/8, then (the 7/8 7/8 pattern) against 7/8 7/8 6/8, then (the 7/8 7/8 pattern) against 7/8 7/8 7/8 6/8. One day when I feel like banging my head against a wall repeatedly I'll arrange a MIDI sequence to test it out.

[@artsmith5317]

Song starts in 4/4. Cool guitar part is in 7/8. Count it 1-2, 1-2, 1-2-3. The verses are 7/4. The 7/8 guitar part is played two times under the 7/4. 7/8 + 7/8 = 14/8 or 7/4. Pretty clever. The displacement that Belew and Fripp play, I always thought it was the same riff, just displaced by 1/16 or by an 1/8th. I never really tried to figure it out. It sounds like the two parts don’t align until some point in verse 1.

[@LaluProg]

Some of the replies below are almost correct, here's what happens... When this parts kicks in, both guitars play the same 7/8 pattern two times (you could indeed say that it's 7/4, but I prefer seeing it as a couple of 7/8 bars for the sake of this example). Then, from the moment the keyboard pad kicks in, the right guitar starts playing its own 13/8 pattern, which is indeed the former 7/8 x2 (14/8) without the last eight note. You're welcome :)

[@InsaneCarville]

Plot twist; the keyboards are actually Belew vocals and harmonies with a ton of reverb. 🤯

[@MichaelMarko]

I am personally fascinated with and love the oscillations of clashing timings. I love the experience of “getting it”. Some prog rock does this. Math rock rather depends on it.

[@steverickenbacher7110]

It's a repeating set of notes that perfectly signifies the OCD and anxiety that accompanies one's drowning in one's own analysis. This is NOT rocket science.

[@wadsmitter511]

I think it's more correct to say that it's in 7/8, and that the second guitar plays 13/8. It looks prettier on sheet music as well

[@Bronco541]

a bunch of their songs from all three 80's albums do this to some extent; beat and three of a perfect pair. buuuuuuut the *real* insane part is Fripp's part during the chorus. I think there's a reason he never playes one extra chorus first live, as in the studio version; my hand cramps up just listening to that part!!!!

[@andrewazur2186]

This song and obscure alternatives by Japan have this unique trip up style

[@joejoestar2702]

2:39 ye, that's how king crimson works.

[@thekout]

I mean, it doesnt erase time, it adds another signature because its phasing ;)

[@joejoestar2702]

Lmao, thought you weren't gonna get it, everyone watches jojo these days ?

[@RodLD]

It just works

[@RaymondPeckIII]

Bonus points for the Agent Fresco shirt. If you have a Gosta Berling Saga one you get 10 points and win the game.

[@willowsparks4576]

It’s a technique called phasing - Adam Neely did a video about it explaining it in a different way but the concept is the same

[@richardtormen9391]

Great job ....congrats!....I was very lucky to see King Crimson in Buenos Aires 1994....

[@robotbarbarian]

I think the real question moreover is: What the hell is going on with the opening riff?! Now that is one, totally frenetic, bizarre riff. The example you point out is definitely weird, but the opening riff is one you never see (including live performances by KC themselves) anybody playing!

[@Axe_Slinger]

One guitar is in 7/8 while the other is in 13/8. So you get one guy playing a 13 note pattern and the other playing a 14 note pattern (2 bars of 7/8). They start out with the first 13 notes the same, then they go offset by a beat every measure, starting with the first, so the one guitar starts the pattern on beat 2 (compared to the other guitar) the next measure, followed by beat 3 then 4 (etc), until they link up again, for the first 13 notes, then they go out of sync again right away and keep repeating that pattern!

[@CaseyVan]

Fripp was into all kinds of 20th century composers like Steve Reich, John Cage and the 12 tone experiments. So he used these advanced ideas in his music. Also he experimented with tape loops which probably would go out of sync. All I can say is "Bravo, but it ain't got no soul". Fortunately 'Frame By Frame' does have soul thanks to the wonderful and heavily underrated singing and songwriting of Adrian. It's very reminiscent of U.K. a few years earlier. Fantastic stuff.

[@augustusbetucius1572]

Soul is subjective. This song, the album it's from and KC in general have more to this listener than all the pop divas and major label singing products all combined. Most people are conditioned to think that soul only happens when there are blue notes, bent strings and over blowing. I couldn't disagree more. Wozzeck and the Rite of Spring have tons of soul, the composers put themselves fully into their compositions. Soul comes in many styles and forms.

[@andrejul-christensen8301]

Oh the joy that is King Crimson

[@stratosoldano]

Hey, could you make a video of the epic guitar solo of "Sailor's Tale", from the album "Islands" also by King Crimson... it can't be found on line, come on...

[@ernestmaciel]

You only skip the last note once then you wait til it all comes in sync again

[@timburns379]

nope the second to the last note must be held 2 beats to prevent the sequence from eventually re-synchronizing

[@RaymondPeckIII]

For a lot of this kind of magic, check out the Guitar Craft repertoire, especially the earlier pieces. Check out the Wikipedia page for more information about GC, which Robert calls his life's work.

[@t3hgir]

cool analysis! this is why I love prog

[@chrispile3878]

It's in New Standard Tuning - NOT normal tuning.

[@emolovetree]

Watching before Fripp takes this down

[@mylgphoneelgee162]

I think a guitar is tuned differently i had never heard of it until i watched a video on the diff ways to.tune a guitar... He says the way is tuned is: CDGAEG.

[@mylgphoneelgee162]

Also look up: peter fripp and the leagie of crafty guitarists. Its pretty crazy

[@thaenebrissss_96]

*Robert Fripp

[@stevekimball7931]

Love your interest in this.

[@luizcruz1000]

I already gave up on playing crimson

[@tristanwright9733]

The 7empest must be true to its nature

[@spagerrhowtaf8673]

I transcribed all the parts once back in the 1980s. I still have the score if anyone is interested.

[@TheDavidnewkirk]

Thanks for your passion and your playing and your video! Those of us who've followed King Crimson and Robert Fripp for over 50 years fully understand how their creativity and inventiveness grab and don't let go. Starting at about 24:15 into kzbin.info/www/bejne/i4jJqYRqhquAaq8 , Adrian Belew explains and demonstrates this technique based on exactly that phrase from _Frame by Frame_.

[@PaizenCakes]

My head is hurting

[@helgijonsson3537]

Yeah but in a good way right? ;)

[@seanbarker6478]

I love your self deprecating humour! Polyrhythms are very hard to decipher.

[@thehomelessyoutuber844]

Its a polymeter

[@eleinadzammol]

I was just watching a Adrian Belew video with Metropol okestra, and I got the riff, but ... I thought it was the delay, not a second guitar, but I think you 're right, what a mess in my mind :-)

[@PaulWW36]

If you watch the video again you see the other guitarist at 2:50

[@hughjohnson2674]

Adrian is very adept at looping, see his power trio, I saw them live and he uses loops all the time. If he looped one phrase and played the other it would do the same thing.

[@andrewazur2186]

Love Robert fripps guitar work on scary monsters too

[@timallbritton7329]

I'd love to hear you prattle on about that you think might have been played, but I have better things to to.

[@helgijonsson3537]

"Better things" as in leaving comments under videos you don't deem to be worth your time? Maaaybe don't watch it then?

[@timallbritton7329]

@@helgijonsson3537 You're not witty. I watched it until I realized I was wasting my time.

[@punkrevenge676]

Tool-7empest has almost exactly the same riff and vibe going on.

[@system_of_a_pipe6050]

That is bored

[@elchungo5026]

My head hurts.

[@steveshadforth8792]

Fripp Drops a note you’re welcome

[@adram3lech]

Hello, if its wrong why do you show it? 2:55

[@tylerdurden2537]

KING CRIMSON!

[@ronniefarnsworth6465]

Belew & Fripp always complex and they knew most of their tunes would not be easy to learn, they would never say it ? But i'm sure Fripp & Belew enjoyed that !! Lol : D

[@normanstanleyfletcher3582]

Best album imho crazy instruments one and all

[@thesardinasardina1761]

Hey i love this song and what this concept is called is polyrhythms!! Its in my 15 years of play the most over looked concept in music. Look up the song " displin" by king crimson ! It uses the concepts of over leaping times signatures i wrote the tabs down.

[@peter-andrepliassov4489]

Actually, this is not an example of a polyrhythm. The two guitars are playing equally long notes, but in different time signatures. The proper term for it is "polymeter".

[@gavyngelinas1726]

Not a polyrhythm

[@sabin97]

well done. you earned another like

[@pth0047]

Nice Agent Fresco shirt

[@clivehorridge]

Discipline is the best of the best produced by KC, all of it is excellent but Discipline is the pinnacle IMO.... it’s kaleidoscope music...

[@ionneifion2012]

I cant count or do time signatures at all but I've listened to this a thousand times and it seems to me your playing a note or two(3?) too many, but the idea is spot on...no?

[@janheidrich5453]

I did a full cover of „Frame by frame“ with a friend, go check it out!

[@SterlingSimmons22]

One word: Polyrhythm

[@HerbalistGuybrush]

polymetric

[@BallJoinedWing]

def liked this vid style

[@nlumby]

...that would be Belew and Fripp

[@levig-man4103]

Agent Fresco Shirt ! Nice to see

[@FrenchToasted1995]

discipline is my in the court

[@gabriellandau]

01:52 if it`s simple you could compose it

[@hsatin20]

Good work man.

[@classicraceruk1337]

Fripp is out of this world

[@pizzibarbarodellamaremma3179]

Good job man

[@shadyacr]

yeah boi u got it

[@andythebritton]

Is this your own analysis? ;)

[@HerbalistGuybrush]

suuuuddenly

[@jonnykhatru]

Try not to let the notes ring out over each other 👌

[@teoscapato1396]

Same notes, melody, rhythym, but the second guitar is a bit delayed

[@Sanitarium7]

Thumbs up for the Agent Fresco T

[@henriqueoliveira5123]

It just works.

[@Halicyion]

Henrique Oliveira I see a JoJo fan

[@RonCrown]

The end result is all that matters

[@evillolipop2704]

JoJo fans ? Lol

[@JamesW225]

Good question. But I like it

[@markharwood7573]

Great effort! Next, sing at the same time. Good luck with that.

[@kikkancris]

Helgi I’m sorry but you don’t know music of Steve Reich!! Fripp is inspire at this author in this song! The phase pattern of Reich is the key of your questions!

[@budo1968]

Every riff is a 4/4 if you play it long enough...

[@johnhasso8908]

Count Frippula is not to be fucked with

[@Nina01x]

Cool!

[@pokedojo8477]

Intro to Money for Nothing by Dire Straits

[@fandres.eneira]

Agent Fresco

[@alexhall6375]

Oh dear

[@Soni-jd4li]

they skipped time

[@rockonthestone4907]

Fredrik Åkesson of Opeth in disguise

[@helgijonsson3537]

Well I sure hope you mean in terms of guitar skills because I'll take that compliment! :D

[@rockonthestone4907]

@@helgijonsson3537 You on par with Åkesson? I mean maybe, hard to tell from just a clip of u playing Frame'. But youre a b0ss player nonetheless big dog

[@brucebernardini4107]

Like you videos!!

[@classicraceruk1337]

Fripptronics rule