What the Hell is Nimravus

Nimravus is one of those animals I've been vaguely aware of for a while, but never really investigated deeper. But I was very excited to learn more about it once the patrons voted for it.
Nimravus is one of the most interesting mammals which ever lived, and it may help show how saber teeth potentially evolved in the first place, and how one cat living today, may have some of the adaptations needed to evolve saber teeth again.

[@samrizzardi2213]

People just assume that it roared or yowled like a felid, yet that seems to be a very derived trait in feliforms. Most non-cat feliforms seem to hiss or chatter. I like to imagine nimravids giving hyena or mongoose-like cackles or fossa style screams.

[@RaptorChatter]

That would certainly be an interesting sound for cat like animals to make. Seems like a fun idea for reconstructions.

[@dtxspeaks268]

Or it could be a mix of cougar yowls, tiger roars, fossa screams and mongoose/hyena laughs?

[@briangarrow448]

Nimrads are the budget saber toothed predator we always wanted.

[@manzac112]

Nimravids did saber-teeth before the saber-toothed cats.

[@Freshie207]

Very cool, I'd alwalys heard the convergent evolution argument for elongate canines, Interesting hearing the ancestoral argument.

[@RaptorChatter]

I mean, it was something I specifically noticed, & I am very much a "in general complex features evolve once" paleontologist. While I did do research for this video, I did not carefully analyze every dataset, so that idea could still very well be wrong. I also just think it's something which needs to be tested better.

[@Pwnagotchi-0]

5:15 yes but the clouded leopard doesn't just have larger canines on top but the bottom also which is not a characteristic of nimravid or sabertooth cats unfortunately, but members of both Panthera and the felid family of small cats. I know, I was hoping for a modern day sabertooth too.

[@RaptorChatter]

Yeah, they really are unique, and even with the long lower canines they are the closest we have today.

[@christianeaster2776]

One thing. I have noticed a significant difference in house cats canines length. Some have canines that show below their upper lip. Most do not.

[@graphite2786]

5:55 diagram. Was I the only one wondering what the family Nandiniidae was? Anyway I did a quick search and it's the African palm civet. A totally monophyletic species. Only member of it's family, genus and species. And they are cute AF.

[@StonedtotheBones13]

Thank you. Was wondering about that and others tbh but too late to be tumbling down wikipedia

[@QUIRK1019]

Sometimes it's difficult to explain to other people that I learn a lot on KZbin, but that I learn from the "good" science channels. How do I know the good from the bad, I'm often asked. Well, if a video uses phrases like "the early diverging groups should be the most basal and closest to the ancestral condition," it's a good source.

[@RaptorChatter]

Lol. Thanks! We try to be on the line between way too technical, and still making a good explanation.

[@bkjeong4302]

Nimravids also work as a major counterpoint against the “velvet claw” hypothesis where carnivorans supposedly outcompeted every other Cenozoic land predator clade they encounter, since the nimravids became dominant at around the same time as many of the groups that were supposedly displaced by newer, “better” carnivorans-showing that such groups could actually handle carnivoran competition.

[@RaptorChatter]

Well, the Feliformia are within carnivora, so it still may support that idea, unless I'm missing something in your comment. I'm not super familiar with that hypothesis, so I may be misunderstanding something.

[@bkjeong4302]

@@RaptorChatter You seem to have misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that BECAUSE nimravids are feliform carnivorans, they contradict the idea of carnivorans displacing other clades of land predators wholesale, since they coexisted with many of the groups that supposedly got displaced. There’s this idea called the “Velvet Claw phenomenon” where carnivorans supposedly outcompeted and displaced every other lineage of Cenozoic land predators they encountered by being supposedly “better evolved” in terms of things like intelligence, group behaviour or speed. These narratives usually have carnivorans taking over the world starting in the Early Miocene and going on from there. But nimravids are feliform carnivorans that dominated the northern hemisphere as apex predators for the entire Oligocene epoch, yet coexisted alongside many other lineages of predators that supposedly couldn’t withstand carnivoran competition and were displaced (hyaenodonts, entelodonts, flightless predatory birds in the form of bathornithids). Thus, the fact nimravids existed, and were actually dominant at the same time as those other groups of predators, refutes the notion that said groups of predators were unable to handle carnivoran competition, since it shows that carnivorans actually became a dominant force an entire epoch earlier than commonly claimed-and did so without displacing other groups of land predators. It’s also questionable whether carnivorans actually had any of the commonly claimed advantages over other groups of Cenozoic predators (intelligence estimates of fossil animals must rely entirely on features of brain anatomy so are unreliable, most carnivorans are not cooperative hunters, most carnivorans are not well-suited for running, etc).

[@RaptorChatter]

@@bkjeong4302 ah, I see now. Interesting idea, but yeah seems less valid with the coexistence of nimravids and others. Thanks for clarifying.

[@klikssiikubra314]

This is not a good argument. You see the Hyaenodons wither in diversity in North America as the nimravids explode in diversity.

[@bkjeong4302]

@@klikssiikubra314 Except the hyaenodonts that declined in diversity were all much smaller, basal forms that weren’t going to be in competition with most nimravids anyways, while the forms that actually competed with nimravids were the big predators (because nimravids mostly diversified into this niche as well), which did fine.

[@robrice7246]

2:07/2:09 I know there was a skull from the nimravid, Dinictis that was punctured by a Hyaenodon.

[@SirSensible]

A

[@patreekotime4578]

Really cool video. Its interesting how much overlap there is in species in the cat lineage and dog lineages. Just the fact that mongoose and weasels are not closely related always shocks me. The covergent evolution argument is also interesting... it seems like much of what used to be thought of as examples of covergent evolution are now being looked at as recurring basal features.

[@RaptorChatter]

The weasel thing is interesting, because people always talk about arthropods becoming crabs, but few people talk about mammals becoming ferrets. Future video idea maybe?

[@patreekotime4578]

@@RaptorChatter I would argue the tasmanian devil falls into that camp. Marsupial wolverine? What the hell is a mongoose? Not a mon or a goose!

[@MaryAnnNytowl]

Quite a critter! Thanks for sharing all of this information with us, as well as these cool images. I appreciate what you do!

[@aceundead4750]

Nimravids sound like the mosasaurs of land mammals, constantly fighting and thriving off of it.

[@RaptorChatter]

Maybe. Some animals are just more prone to combat. Others are more used to posturing to compete. Lions are a great example of both, because they have the mane, plus they do fight fairly regularly. So maybe nimravids were more aggressive towards other predators.

[@josephcosta5382]

I never knew clouded Leopards had teeth that large. 😳 VERY interesting! Now I'm looking forward into reading/watching more on those beautiful animals. I love your channel and keep up the great work. I dig how informative you are. 🍻

[@RaptorChatter]

Thanks!

[@shafqatishan437]

They also have the same BFQ as jaguars. They're also p4p the most physically strongest member of the cat family, rivaling tigers and jaguars.

[@RaptorChatter]

I will fully admit I am not super familiar with these statistics. What is BFQ? I may have mentioned it in the video, but that was a while ago, and I don't recall everything

[@RaptorChatter]

I feel like it's something to do with the biceps length, but can't recall for sure.

[@kendallkahl8725]

I wonder if its ankles rotated to the rear so it could come down trees like margays, fossa and clouded leopards?

[@LorenzoVargas1981]

I’d love to see a What the Hell is Astropotherium vid 😊

[@RaptorChatter]

SANUs are their whole own host of taxonomic problems. But I really should look at them in better detail eventually.

[@messiahmatrix]

Nimrads attacking each other walking like a plantigrade were a bunch of nimrods 😅

[@prototropo]

Very much appreciate the wholeness of the discussion, without edits or calibration for accommodation of non-science literate listeners. Of course, everyone interested in basic paleontology--or any science discipline that mandates some grasp of technical vocabulary--should get every assistance or encouragement possible. But likewise, the well-read citizen scientist and graduate student deserves unfettered news and information that hasn't been pureed and sweetened for easy consumption of hypo-syllabic entertainment. And yes--hoorah for vaccines! Each "immunization" could save lives by the legion--up to 17k per syllable: im myu ni zay shen!

[@laurachapple6795]

So what I'm taking from this is if you go time travelling you should absolutely not try to pet the nimravids.

[@RaptorChatter]

This is giving me Oklahoma Dept. of WIldlife Conservation vibes.

[@basher20]

Any information about the climate they lived in? It seems to me that the wider paws and grappling forelimbs could be adaptations to hunting in snow, as in lynx taking on snowshoe hares in Canada today.

[@dtxspeaks268]

Giving that it lived during the Eocene, it's impossible that Nimravus (and other Nimravids, fossas and other basal feliforms) lived in arctic or tundra climates and landscapes.

[@oulo5019]

I wonder how smart these creatures were

[@KM-yf6qz]

Excellent and informative as always, thank you. Plural-mongeese, totally logical

[@RaptorChatter]

You're welcome!

[@christianeaster2776]

When I was in school the plural of mongoose was mongeese. I still say mongeese. Also, I still use octopi. Octopuses sounds somewhat obscene.

[@benjones1717]

If the teeth are piercing the skull, then what I've heard about the teeth breaking off seems less likely.

[@RaptorChatter]

They still may broken off. But yes it is less likely. It may also just be failed attempts at predation similar to those of jaguars, which do bite through skulls. This is very key in the Nimravus-Hoplophoneus specimen, which while I don't mention it in the video, the Nimravus seems to have healed some from the puncture, meaning it survived for at least a bit.

[@blitsriderfield4099]

question: so digitigrade means walking only on the digits, plantigrade means walking on the digits and the heel/palm, so is there a name for walking exclusively on the heel/palm?

[@RaptorChatter]

Not that I can think of. But I'm not a biomechanist, so there could be something for that.

[@RobertGotschall]

Humans walk mostly on our heels, we can get by without toes. It's our feet the sets us apart from the other apes and is apparently an adaptation to more efficient walking, more similar to hoofed animals.

[@Pwnagotchi-0]

Sorry to keep talking your ear off here, but to get a better idea of where nimravid fit on the family tree we need to know things that are not posted on Google like, how many teeth did they have in their mouth, how many were carnassial teeth? Were their claws fully or partially retractable? And other questions I have but the information is not made readily available. The reason I say this is because the bones dont lie more specifically the dental plan, also the vivaridae family has partially retractable claws and some members posses both cat and weasel like features, very similar to nimravid....any ways theres so much more I'd like to say but can not.

[@RaptorChatter]

That's all totally fair. For the purpose of these we generally have started trying to discuss why some of the more interesting features & how they may have been used. Getting into very specific taxonomy isn't for the audience I'm trying to reach, who in general, have more of a layman view of biology. It's something we've been debating changing, but unfortunately for the amount of time we can dedicate to producing content is currently limited, so the more specific details are one of the things that we have cut.

[@origami_dream]

What is the rationale for the difference in punctuation between different videos in this series? Does this episode having no punctuation mean it's sort of a weary, defeated tone, whereas the bathornis video having ?!? reflects a greater degree of confused anger at the creature in question?

[@OscarGonzalez-iz2xc]

What species is euismilus from nimramid or smilodon?

[@RaptorChatter]

So it's a Nimravid, which has recently (last 10ish years) been synonymized with Hoplophoneus

[@kuitaranheatmorus9932]

This is amazing

[@RaptorChatter]

Thanks!

[@Soviet1332]

Just a correction, Gorgonopsia were many millions years older than Nimravids (40 million years older than dinosaurs) and it’s considered they were in America. Whist there’s no fossil evidence (it’s extremely hard to make a fossil), they were found in Russia. The closest country to Russia to the north is America. They were actually found in Siberia, extremely close. Also back then, they were connected. So much so that ‘Native’ Americans are from Russia.

[@markdebruyn1212]

Actually during the time Gorgonopsian's lived, all the continents where a single landmass

[@Soviet1332]

@@markdebruyn1212 This is a true, but a pointless point, because even though Pangea was one large mass, it doesn't change where fossils are found today

[@markdebruyn1212]

@@Soviet1332 In know but at that time America was closer to Europe, instead of russia

[@Soviet1332]

​@@markdebruyn1212 That's incorrect, just becuase plates move, countries don't transport elsewhere. The first ever Gorgonopsid was found in Siberia. The second was found in modern Alabama. America north, central, south and west has always been extremely close to Russia. So much so, Alaska was once Russian. Countries don't suddenly fly 5000 miles across the world and join another continent. America has never EVER been neaar Europe. I am a scientist, this is basic knowlegde I learned I school

[@markdebruyn1212]

@@Soviet1332 Actually i found of Pangaea (with all countries on it and europe was actually close to west coast of canada, and russia dit touch alasaka, so the part with russia was my mistake

[@conner13.c16]

So the clouded leopard would count as a quintessential feliform?

[@maozilla9149]

cool video

[@RaptorChatter]

Thanks!

[@maozilla9149]

@@RaptorChatter your welcome

[@cerberaodollam]

The evolution of the "meow" would be an interesting topic 😆

[@RaptorChatter]

I'm not sure how much I'd be able to do with that since there's not normally soft tissue preserved, but I'd also have to look at the modern spread of purring and see if there's any mechanism differences in modern cats that can.

[@tyrannotherium7873]

they are sabertooths but bot the true cats

[@dennismason3740]

Most foxes walk like cats. It's a floppity kind of stepping on the palm. Why foxes? I heard someone say that foxes are the cats of the canine world.

[@RedKoopaPlumber]

I’d love to see a “what the hell is a entelodont” video

[@RaptorChatter]

I'll be sure to add it to our What the Hell list!

[@jontydenton1201]

Bitey better…nippy for Brits normally equates to fast

[@felixramsey4239]

wonderful! You are late to the party - Promo>SM!!

[@joecaner]

Brewster the booster booster...