What turned nurse Lucy Letby into a cold blooded baby killer?

Nurse Lucy Letby lived an unremarkable, ordinary life before becoming a suspect in one of the most barbaric and heinous crime imaginable - killing seven newborn babies.
While working in a UK hospital, the 33-year-old carried went on a killing spree where she attacked and poisoned innocent children as they lay defenceless in hospital.
But as she begins her life sentence for murder, Letby’s motive for her shocking and calculated crimes remain a mystery. Nothing in her past or family background appears to explain how Letby would go on to become a serial killer.
Niall Donald is joined by psychologist and true crime expert Emma Kenny to talk about female serial killers and what could have driven Lucy Letby to kill.
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[@marypartridge5154]

I cant think why they have not investigated all the doctors involved in this???

[@lucieni]

Because the GMC protect their own….

[@DavidISHERWOOD-iu1xn]

I think you may have 2:06 something there. As far as I see the Police investigated a narrow band IE Lucy Letby. The nurses, doctors, hospital management, the unhygienic ward ALL NEEDED INVESTIGATION

[@lesley9989]

😂😂

[@lesley9989]

Of course they investigated the doctors. 2,000 people were interviewed by the police and a Consultant even sent an email to the Senior Managers at the Trust to almost beg the police to be involved to interview and investigate everyone.

[@lesley9989]

​@@lucienioh my. The GMC do, but the police investigated the Consultants and thousands of people. You make a good point about the GMC because this shows the Consultants wouldn't have lost their jobs anyway when people use the scapegoat theory. They were investigated by the police as countless other people were. All of them weren't even there for all the collapses and deaths

[@AKUBARIKI]

Ok....21 minutes in... I have a problem with what this psychologist is saying....firstly..didn't she notice that in the testimony lucy told numerous blatant unnecessary lies... that she was taken away in a nightie, = she had blue track suit on. she was banned from seeing many friends = photographs of her on endless night outs. She didn't text in clinical areas, she didn't know what air embolism was etc etc..... surely she should know that lucy is a Malignant Narcissist with sadistic Psychopath traits and operated under a superb facade .

[@tamararutland-mills9530]

bullseye,

[@ruthbashford3176]

I'm surprised the innocent Lucy could have remembered anything when she was arrested. The fact that the poor lady was in a fit state to be cross-examined by the prosecution is incredible. There is no doubt Lucy is innocent as the case against her has simply fallen apart. The babies Lucy was supposed to have murdered had post mortems and were found to have died from natural causes unless you prefer to believe the half-baked assertions of a discredited Welsh geriatric paediatrician and his biased NHS mates who simply rubber stamped his daft theories.

[@lesley9989]

@@eppleheid wow. You've got it bad, haven't you with that length of comment. Even worse than mine. I'll try answer tomorrow, or in various comments because I can't copy and then answer as much as I can

[@lesley9989]

@@eppleheid your first point about the PJs. The whole point of that statement wasn't about what she wore in bed, whether it was Lee Cooper or Lee Marvin. She was the one making a point of saying in hef nightie or PJs. No one else thought it had any relevance. She brought it up in her statement to the original Jury, so if it wasn't significant for her, then why even being it up? This is why people are stating it after, because she's the one making it an issue to gain sympathy from the Jury as though she was dragged out of the house. Maybe she forgot it was all being filmed and nothing was inappropriate about that arrest. Loads happen early morning for various reasons

[@ruthbashford3176]

Of course Lucy was the only one who was supposed to have a perfect memory of events. The contradictory evidence of the doctors and consultants didn't seem to matter.

[@hubbert22]

I think there should be an appeal as there are many unresolved issues.

[@tamararutland-mills9530]

absolutely. Her lawyer gave her a poor defense.

[@SageWhite-Rose]

It shocked a lot of people in the USA too.

[@kengaskins5083]

I think a confluence of factors flow into the River of Guilt for Lucy Letby. The note is really the nail in her judicial coffin; I don't buy that she wrote "I did this" in particular if she was innocent. She's a grown woman, not a 12 year-old, nor some one having delusions as far as we know. I really think she started out with very good intentions going all the way back to her youth. I believe she got her kicks upon experiencing at close quarters some infantile deaths perhaps as early as Liverpool. It could've even been orgasmic, as Karla Faye Tucker explained during her murderous acts. There very well could be a physical component here, such as a tumor, lession or biochemical change that changed her behavior via her brain. Although she was convicted, the case is circumstantial, so if she is innocent (very slim chance in my opinion but possible), I obviously hope she wins her freedom on appeal and as a bonus, these deaths are explained properly. Assuming the jury got it right, I hope she becomes a model prisoner, helping other prisoners in literacy, etc. Foremost, though not nearly enough, my supreme hope is that she saves time, energy and money of the British people by confessing and explaining "why" she did it and/or "how" it made her feel. She should then apologize wholeheartedly to the relatives of the slain/harmed children, her relatives, her colleagues, her profession, and her friends. The other thing she can try to do to make amends is donate her brain to science. She can develop a deep-seated spiritual life with God or whatever form this could take to make her a better person.

[@marypartridge5154]

Just so brilliantly put and such a thought provoking comment. It's reassuring to know there are still highly intelligent people out there. Yes I've always wondered about her notes. I do think she could be trapped in some kind of weird/ even sexual control by coercion with her parents. Her father staying with her over night and even making her bed seems a trifle strange. Her mother declaring the court room that she had committed the offences. Cried of some kind of attachment disorder. That Lucy does not seemed to have developed any separation from her parents. I'm not sure she did this because of the lack of evidence but I am not sure she did not do this either. And when she got in the car of the police at her home I noticed she mentioned she had a bad knee. I find this controlling behaviour so I'm really not sure. But I agree if she confessed science could learn from her and why exactly this happened to her. And I do know by my own mother who was a real psychopath that the anger she felt over believing my father was sexually turned on by me his daughter aroused her. These psychopaths do have feelings but from anger and not love.

[@DavidISHERWOOD-iu1xn]

I think. I think! If Wishes were horses then beggars would ride!

[@ruthbashford3176]

That note was not a confession, they were the ramblings of a poor woman in a state of shock, However, innocent people confessing to murders they have not committed is not that uncommon. For example Timothy Evans was in shock when he found out his wife and daughter had been strangled and he confessed to their murders and, of course, he was entirely innocent. The babies who Lucy was supposed to have murdered had post mortems and had been found to have died from natural causes, that alone proves Lucy is innocent. Unless of course you prefer to believe the half-baked assertions of a retired, discredited paediatrician who should NEVER have been employed as an expert witness. Lucy's trial was like a 17th Century witch trial with Dr Dewi Evans as the new Witchfinder General.

[@RabJ208]

Great talk both of you. Cheers 👍

[@ruthbashford3176]

Lucy's trial was like a 17th Century witch trial with Dr Dewi Evans as the Witchfinder General.

[@e11esounds]

03:18 Psychologist lost me there. Just because parents seem to be devoted and loving doesn’t mean behind closed doors that there wasn’t emotional abuse. Cannot believe in 2023 there are trained psychologists that aren’t getting that. This is why children aren’t safe in their homes - the adults that should be able to spot the signs of emotional abuse are still so deluded and misinformed.

[@55tranquility]

Almost everyone who knows of Letby’s case has only heard the official story of a prolific serial killer punished for unconscionable evil. But in an interview with Norman Fenton (statistician at Queen Mary University of London), Scott McLachan doubted that any justice was served. A lecturer in applied health technology at King’s College London, MvLachan has both nursing and legal qualifications. He has meticulously studied the evidence presented in court, revealing misleading use of data and omission of crucial information. Of critical import to the guilty verdict was a chart showing which nurses were on duty at the time of baby collapses and deaths. It looks damning: in every case, Letby was there. But this was horridly misleading: other casualties occurred when Letby was off duty, but these were not considered in court. Data from a freedom of information request to the hospital showed that 31 infants died in the 12-month period of Letby’s adjudged crimes, yet 23 of these were excluded from the trial (of the eight deaths for which Letby was believed culpable, one case was dropped). In other words, Letby was implicated by circular logic: deaths happened when she was on the unit, so she must have caused them. According to McLachan various other factors could have caused an elevation in mortality. The neonatal unit had been upgraded, enabling it to provide for premature babies who previously would have gone to a specialist unit. There was a problem with the plumbing: sewage pipes leaked, risking contamination of the water supply. McLachan suggested that bacterial infection could have been the cause of air in the bloodstream and organs of babies, rather than injection by Letby (which nobody witnessed). The role and responsibility of doctors was strangely marginalised in the proceedings. Why weren’t they crosstabulated by infant injury? Dr Gibbs, the unit consultant, had one foot in the door of retirement at the time of the incidents, and clinical decision were increasingly taken by the registrar and junior doctors. As McLachan described, inexperienced trainees were performing skilled procedures such as umbilical venous catherisation, which should be supervised on the first three or more occasions. Sometimes a junior doctor made multiple unsuccessful insertions, raising the risk of infection. Letby was reported to police by consultants, after a critical report about the unit by the Royal College of Paediatrics & Child Health, despite no concerns being raised by Letby’s nursing colleagues at the time. Perhaps she was a convenient target, after disagreeing with a doctor’s decision? In my mental health nursing experience many years ago, I was the subject of a witch hunt after a patient alleged that a nurse had doubted the drug regime prescribed by a consultant psychiatrist. I had merely informed the patient that antidepressants don’t work for everyone (an evidence-based statement), but that was enough to incur the wrath of the medical gods. NHS management always blames nurses if something goes wrong. Doctors exert power without responsibility, while nurses are given responsibility without power. In the 1990s I was manager of an innovative mental health crisis service. Months were spent working on the operational policy, partly to ensure that the service (which had six beds) was used for genuine crises and not as an annex to the psychiatric ward. When I objected to consultant psychiatrists transferring patients from the acute wards as overspill, senior management sided with the doctors rather than the manager running the service to the operational policy! Instrumental to Letby’s conviction was Dr Dewi Evans, a retired paediatrician, who approached the National Crime Agency to contribute to the investigation. McLachan suggests that Evans touted for business and oversold his credentials. He was not a current expert in neonatal care, but his assessment of the cause of deaths and injuries was prominent in the prosecution, and clearly influenced the jury. Forensic analysis of the court case on the Science on Trial website rexvlucyletby2023.com infers that all of the seven babies died of natural causes. There may have been clinical negligence - by doctors and nurses (including Letby). Instead, one nurse was accused of the following malice: - Injecting air into veins (cases A, B, D, E, M) Insulin poisoning (F, L) Force-fed milk (G) Injecting air into the stomach (C, I, O, P, Q) Attacking organs with a sharp implement (E, N, O) Unspecified (possible tampering or smothering) (H, J, K) Each of these allegations is undermined by the Science in Trial analysis. As well as the selective shift data, Letby was incriminated by her possession of handover sheets. Nurses and midwives often keep such records after their shift finishes, because sometimes they may need to refer to such information; for example, if an emergency arises on the next shift or next day. But these folded notes were suggested as a trophy for Letby’s dastardly deeds. Also, Letby had written in her reflective journal (a record of clinical experience kept by practitioners and used for three-yearly revalidation) that she felt somehow responsible for babies dying. Was this an admission of guilt, or simply showing humane concern? Letby was fed to the wolves, with politicians, media pundits and NHS worshippers calling for drastic action to prevent anything like this recurring. Meanwhile, there is no outcry from the same pontificators about the persistent weekly excess of two hundred deaths in Britain, since the mass administration of Covid-19 vaccines. Earlier this year, when Andrew Bridgen was granted a debate in the House of Commons on the harm of these injections, almost every MP left the chamber. Lucy Letby’s trial and imprisonment will not repair a broken public health service. Instead, it will put more power in the hands of those who abuse it: overpaid senior managers and doctors, and a medical industrial complex that offends the very concept of patient-centred care.

[@meganwilliams2962]

Anyone with grad level stats could poke holes. I did a 10 minute Medline and PubMed search as few weeks ago. There are quite a few peer-reviewed scholarly articles and reports discussing associations between cerebral and pulmonary emboli and positive pressure ventilation, with collapses occasionally observed up to 5 dyas post weaning. Sub capsular liver haematoma is occasionally seen in premature babies. When we do our Apply First AId courses, we're taught about the risks of liver damage to both adults and infants when applying CPR, Air is known to get into the GI tract during chest compressions. The 2 insulin babies - were they pregnancied affected by gestational diabetes? Babies born to women with GDM, have abberant insulin handling.NeoPuff manufacturter's literature discusses the risks of emboli and how to minimise them.

[@ruthbashford3176]

Well Said. You've articulated this much better than I could. I believe Lucy to be entirely innocent.

[@lesley9989]

@@ruthbashford3176 so you really read it all?

[@lesley9989]

It's far to long for anyone to give a proper reply without taking out parts and making comment after comment, which I may find time over the next week

[@lesley9989]

Obviously you commented a year ago. Thank goodness for the Scott. No doubt if he's been sat on thid information for a year, it will help her retrial now *sarcasm intended". All these people having all this evidence to release her they really need to stop sitting in it when she's languishing in Jail. I'm hoping Scott contacting Ben Myers to tell him

[@suemaybury5678]

This psychologist is brilliant

[@lemdixon01]

The biggest preditor is the state

[@marypartridge5154]

This was brilliant. But there is so much of this that does not make sense. And the fact she had long term friends and showed no signs of disorder. Has she been stiched up??? Im just not sure about her!!! My only explanation because it happened to me was that she was trapped by coercive control. And she acted from a type of compulsion. My mother was a psychopath and she conditioned and blackmailed me and I had 7 abortions to please her. This is a strech but I found it odd that her mother said it was her. When I got better and had nothing to do with my mother my whole self changed. Coercive control is real and dangerous as your behaviour is not your own. I dont think she has a separate self from her mother. And her father staying with her alone and making her bed.

[@michaelrobinson8581]

Emma's really nice BTW I've met her and she is an expert

[@arabellathornton9386]

If she’s not guilty then how come no baby died after she was let go 🤔

[@DavidISHERWOOD-iu1xn]

Whoever interfered with babies BEFORE Letby's shift. had no need to continue. This lady speaks of insulin INJECTION. As far as I know no insulin was injected, it was in the bags.

[@jonnybigpants]

One in 7 years!

[@marypartridge5154]

Yes my mother got turned on and felt from her anger so these people do things so they can feel You are just so switched on.

[@ruthbashford3176]

I can't believe anyone still thinks Lucy Letby is guilty.

[@keving9157]

I think this lady talks a great deal of sense. It's certainly the kind of assessment i had of Lucy Letby, but i'm no psychologist like your lady here. There were some other odd things about Lucy. Going on holiday with her parents a couple of times a year, at her age, I think was unusual. Now the parents are moving near to the prison in Durham to be near their daughter. It's understandable, but it's as if they need to share her sentence with her, from the outside. Of course, she's now property of the state and can be moved around at any time. The state can be quite pityless in that respect, and as the parents age, moving around may not be an option for them. It's a tragic, horrific case, and yet fascinating. I dare say she'll be subjected to a great deal of psychiatric evaluation in the coming years, not that anything will come out of it.

[@meganwilliams2962]

Our adult children often come on holidays with us, if they are free. They live in different states and these are the times that the siblings can all be together. What is weird about that? The married ones bring their spouses and children, the single bring themselves. They've grown up with a "family holiday" as being a normal thing.

[@keving9157]

@@meganwilliams2962 I take it you're in the US. Maybe things are different there, or maybe it's just my take on things. I stopped going on holiday with my parents after I was 14yrs old. They liked different types of holiday to me. Maybe Lucy felt more at ease with her parents. That time she went on the weekend trip to Ibiza with her friends, as soon as she got back she killed two children. Something seemed to trigger this behaviour in her. Mainly things that displeased her. Very dysfunctional.

[@meganwilliams2962]

@keving9157 no, I'm in Australia. We travel to the same location, eg Cairns in Far North Queensland, or over to Perth in Western Australia. We'll stay in the same apartment complex, we willl all have our own cars so we go off and do our own thing. We'll meet for breakfast or dinner. My husband and I will baby sit if anyone wants a date night, or we might take the grandchildren for the day so the parents have a child free day.

[@meganwilliams2962]

My late MIL used to come on holidays with us after my FIL passed away.

[@ruthbashford3176]

Going on holiday with parents is really unusual and must make Lucy a serial killer. Some of these psychiatrists and psychologists are going to have egg on their face when the innocent Lucy is freed from prison apologized to and compensated.

[@flohawkins1]

Emma thank you for still giving her the benefit of the doubt. She's got a whole life setence, and not a single pathologist said the babies were even murdered. The things that were going on in the hospital were scary. More babies died than she was charged for. The post mortems did no prove they were injected with air.

[@flohawkins1]

I must add as well. I wanted her to be guilty because the thought of a nurse being in prison for murdering babies and shes innocent is terrifying. The insulin wasn't found in bag of fluids, but the babies insulin levels were high. There are reasons for that, which, for some reason, was not explored by the defence.

[@DanielleHalpin-pg6rn]

Scary....😢 i still have loads of questions

[@lesley9989]

The note wasn't even used much in the trial. Emma. Every person on a Jury isnt thick or beneath you. I do love your work, but anyone who's every had CBT themselves understands that people write all sorts. What you've got to understand that if you say this type of thing, even if you then explain and quantify what you meant, the NG brigade latch on to it and don't hear anything what you say after. The Jury didn't have to latch onto this. They had a whole ten months of evidence to listen to.

[@Toby3610]

I think it’s worth looking at. Especially from an experts point of view. The victims I believe should be place at the centre. A few points - one of the babies was screaming (parent says) Lucy was working on a computer near by. Then there was a discrepancy in time of when a parent drop milk of and when something (medication) was given. Lucy said 11pm and the mum said 9pm. I think there may have been some he said she said going on. And CCTV should have been in the ward. I think protecting the most vulnerable should be a priority. Being under staffed is an issue. Not implementing something sooner could have helped kept some of those babies alive.

[@petersutherland2075]

A few top lawyers are secretly suggesting that she was convicted on v little evidence. Expect an appeal soon

[@tamararutland-mills9530]

Her lawyer did not do his homework, but gave her a poor representation. He should have called in his own experts to state, for example, how oxygen can be found in the blood after death. Several of the air embolism cases were not proved. Yet the issue of insulin is very damning.

[@meganwilliams2962]

@@tamararutland-mills9530 In the insulin babies - were their mothers suffering with gestational diabetes prior to delivery? That can cause abberant insulin handling in the baby.

[@lesley9989]

😂 of course it's all secret, isn't it. Do you even understand how the appeal process works? Obviously you typed this months ago. The appeals are for legal reasons and cannot just overturn a Jury decision, or it would make a mockery of the Jury system. Two appeals on those grounds turned down and nothing in this video would have made a jot of difference to those proceedings. Good luck with the new and compelling evidence required to even do a submission to the CCRC, let alone the Court of Appeal

[@lesley9989]

You make it sound like it would be amazing for her to lodge an appeal within even understanding that literally every convicted criminal puts in an appeal within the 28 day period. I hope everyone was clapping and cheering and holding you aloft for stating the obvious. Its absolutely standard that people put in an appeal on legal grounds within that period. If the submission is rejected from one Judge, then the Defence team ask for three Judges to preside the case again. Four reasons were put into the last submission *admittedly, you didn't know this when you typed your comment* but it's absolutely standard procedure so not a revelation.

[@petersutherland2075]

@@lesley9989your comments make no sense what so ever

[@JulianWard-Davies-cd8kh]

Scapegoat

[@marypartridge5154]

You are the best psychologist I have ever heard. Yes Atlitt did fit. My only idea is this coercive control. And now her mother has her trapped so she will never be independent from her parents. Look at Lucy's mother???

[@run66]

i be leave she never did these crimes

[@STEVIEBHOY]

Morning Nicola 😊

[@mwalescabowabo]

nothing turned her into a cold blooded killer she is completely innocent

[@julieannsmithmusic]

Does anyone think her lack of any long term male/female relationship has anything to do with jealousy? Is she still a virgin? Perhaps her father did something?

[@BobK5]

Perhaps she didn’t do it is more likely if you re look at the lack of any evidence

[@eppleheid]

​@@BobK5 There wasn't evidence per se, there were a set of invented propositions to explain deaths that ignored established and well documented causes, so that Brearey could use sepsis as a silent killer to 'pin' the blame on Lucy. Resuscitation = Air Embolus; Sepsis cause catastrophic organ damage with sudden onset, 3 heart attacks because Jayaram can't put in a shunt properly, Misprescribed insulin because nobody can read the doctor's handwriting or someone messed up in the pharmacy, Brearey poured the milk all over the nursery to make it look like Lucy forcefed the baby milk. 45mls drip fed into baby, massive spew all over the nursery like a scene from the exorcist, 45mls left in the baby.

[@polly6336]

When the expert thinks she's a celebrity so talks about herself instead of the actual topic. Niall's on top form, though.

[@jamesstone9091]

clickbaiting. its a horrendous miscarriage of justice.

[@Brian-om2hh]

So you'd be ok with Letby looking after *your* baby then?

[@clairewaikanae]

​@@Brian-om2hh I would be happy with Lucy looking affer my baby if she was not working in that horrible COCH.

[@Sarahmurray514]

Niall and nicole ... or ppl . Are guna stop watching

[@rolofox1046]

Dont look perfect to me coming from the original man