WHAT WAS GOING ON HERE?

[@24bellers20]

Tom, it’s like mine. I built it myself. Gravity from my log fire. I welded a stainless boiler with 28 mm turned stainless pipes and bolted it in the fire. It’s using natural circulation to a 300 litre cylinder that Castle cylinders made for me in 1996. Heating water is free while the fire is burning. In Summer it’s on economy seven. Soon to be solar to the immersion only. 4 panels to a 1kw heater. 🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫

[@johnwaby4321]

Another nice job Tom 👍👍👍👍

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support as always mate

[@tonymurff5234]

Good video Tom, Nearly time to visit the scrap yard for an extra few bob £££, 👍👍🤜

[@PlumbLikeTom]

I had a good weigh in the other week, when I had that hire van I completely filled it, thanks for watching as always Tony

[@dennisrussell60]

Tom its its direct cylinder these were common years ago when using a solid fuel back boiler. When one has been in awhile and the water started to towards boiling the domestic hot water would be brown until it settled again.They were nearly all like this in the 50s / 60s by replacing it with an indirect that does away with the brown water problem Tom. Just goes to show you learn something new every day.

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support as always mate, every day is a school day in this job, to be honest I hadn't come across one like this before, thanks for watching

[@keithbrueton]

Great video Tom THANKS

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for watching as always Keith

[@FrankieBoy-wn6qt]

another great video Tom you have a lot of knowledge m8t yeah log fire video would be good keep em coming pal….

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support as always mate, I will do my best to film the next log burner I fit, thanks for watching

[@jameswilson2899]

I wouldn't mind seeing a bit of wood burner install Tom, Good content.

[@PlumbLikeTom]

I will film the next one if I get a chance, thanks for watching as always mate

[@Tom_Plumb_PHS]

Same here renewables are fascinating 😊

[@PlumbLikeTom]

I don't think the government class wood burners as renewables anymore, the government hate them because they can't tax or control the fuel. I love them

[@Tom_Plumb_PHS]

@@PlumbLikeTom yh I think you're right. I like the bio ethanol burners. Look very similar to wood burners but don't produce and micro particule pollution. You get the lovely cosy fire still though. 😊

[@jasonsimpson-ks8un]

Hi Tom Nice video would love to see log burner installed from start to finish

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support Jason, I will do my best to film the next one

[@CRABLEGG]

The old 12"x6"x6" (pre- central heating) back boiler and direct cylinder. I fitted a few during my time plumbing, however, mostly I would take them out to fit CH. The flow connection was usually much lower (just above the return) than on this one though. "Convection Currents" if I'm remembering right is how the water would circulate in the cylinder. As a 1 year retired plumber I really enjoy watching the videos especially now not having to do it. You are right plumbing is one big struggle!

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support mate, I'm so pleased you are enjoying the videos, it's the first system I had seen like this, I was honestly surprised when I cut into the cylinder not to see a primatic, I guess there can't be to many left like this now as most people will have upgraded to central heating

[@Martindyna]

I moved to a new housing estate in Maidenhead, UK in June 1959 with my parents. The house had partial oil fired (2 of the 3 bedrooms were unheated when the house was new although we soon added further radiators) central heating that `required no stoking'; the vertical firetube boiler was a Wilson Oilheat model 35 (35,00 BTU/hr) fitted with a single vapourising wick burner (like an Aga cooker). The 4 bed show house was fitted with a twin burner version of the same boiler btw. The cylinder was a Primatic and worked very well. I guess it was even possible to add some Fernox or similar corrosion proofer into a radiator before filling the system via the Primatic although not recommended unless there was a food safe version. Which reminds me that Dad always used `Micromet' crystals (made by Albright & Wilson) suspended in the cold water header tank to stop limescale in the HWS cylinder and of course that had to be food safe. There were no controls at all apart from the Teddington Controls ** modulating boiler thermostat; the central heating only was pumped, we just flicked the switch when heating was needed. In fact the upstairs rads stayed warm due to thermo siphoning without the pump running although Dad had a gate valve fitted to stop this for Summer use. To ramble on a little further I remember going on holiday to the Isle of Wight in the 60s and noticing that the HWS tank was apparently directly heated by a floor standing Potterton gas boiler (that may have been an early Potterton `Diplomat' since they were launched in 1955; it had an old fashioned cream coloured casing), it was virtually impossible to run the hot water cold. I don't know whether such boilers when used with a direct system were lined ? Glass lining surely wouldn't last. The Isle of Wight has hard water btw. ** The company still exists.

[@David-gz2ec]

Hi Tom, that type of cylinder was new on me too, soo I googled it and took a look at some of the other comments, all great lessons. Just wondering though, even if it did have a coil, with flow and return disconnected, could you have just stop ended them with a couple of compressions, job done. It would be interesting to learn if this would be ok, or why it might not be?????/

[@PlumbLikeTom]

I did think about just capping the coil off, I was convinced it was a primatic cylinder and was worried about contamination of the domestic water, not that you would be drinking hot water but it wouldn't be very nice to wash in, in the end changing the cylinder was probably best as it was old, thanks for watching as always 👍

[@SteveHit1]

Hi Tom Looks like a direct cylinder. We had a primatic in our house when I was a kid, with a coal fire and back boiler. It seemed to work ok, but I seem to recall some terror about reforming the air bubble whenever the system got drained during work. Great, interesting video, as always - thanks.

[@PlumbLikeTom]

That was the thing with the old primatic cylinders, I don't really recall ever working on one as such, I have only ever taken them out, I guess they were a neat idea back in the day and saved an additional header tank, thanks for watching as always Steve

[@Glen523]

Hi TOM. As you know the cylinder is a direct cylinder, some in Ireland were stainless due to corrosion in the water, with a copper or stainless steel back boiler, in either an open fire place or direct Stanley or Rayburn Ranges. A very common system in Ireland in the 1960's. Where the main source of fuel was peat or timber. So people had heat from the fire and constant boiling water all day and in the morning as fires were kept going 24/7. The water that circulated in the boiler was the same domestic tap water, boiling it was ..LOL. The system was actually very good, rapid heat up and even a gentle fire would keep the system topped up. Obviously the domestic direct cylinder expansion pipe being the safety device blowoff for both the boiler and cylinder. As time moved on the indirect cylinder and central heating became the norm. The houses in these times had electric type heaters on the wall for bedrooms and some had fire places in every room, nearly 70 ,years ago. people will probably laugh at this post but the system provided warm water with resources people had at the time. I had many a warm bath haha. Love the videos Tom. I know very little about Plumbing but learning a little bit each video. I just remember this about direct back boiler systems. Best wishes

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the information Glen and the detailed response, this house sounds exactly like the one you describe, it had electric storage heaters and then just the open fire with a BBU behind, I guess the plastic storage cistern on this one should have been metal as the heat could easily melt the thing if it ever got hot enough that the water boiled, the customer is now just wanted a log burner with no primary circuit In the end I think changing the cylinder was best on this job as it was very dirty inside was very old, thanks for watching and taking the time to comment, it is greatly appreciated

[@paullbennett2923]

We had that set up at home as a kid at home in the 70s Heating was by electric panel heaters. We had a state of the art Swedish log burner connected to a direct cylinder , which would start rumbling when the fire was raging ! That was the time we were instructed to go and have a hot bath.

[@Glen523]

@@PlumbLikeTom Yes, your right the house's back then, most of them had metal storage tanks with the direct back boilers, that tended to rust a little over time, probably a lot of pitching due to high temperatures and no real control on temp. Yes, as others have mentioned the system would be flushed out once a year to remove sludge or dirt or silt. Very dangerous if got blocked. Oh for sure new cylinder, better job.

[@dorsetengineering]

Exactly the same system I've got on my rayburn install - direct cylinder, stainless back boiler, thermosyphon. Running on anthracite in the winter gives almost endless hot water. It could benefit from a laddomat to get the reheat times from cold in the summer a bit quicker, but the current system works well and is power-cut safe.

[@paullbennett2923]

@@dorsetengineering Pulled out quite a few direct systems in the 80s and 90s , very often with an old 1" flow and return and the flow blocked up with that much scale its surprising it worked at all.

[@colintownsend5024]

Well done Tom Every day is a school. 🤔🤔 Keep them coming nearly at the 5k subscribers. 😎

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support as always Colin, a few more weeks and we should be at 5k

[@bikerjon153]

That cylinder is a new one for me. Poor scrap value as well,😂

[@PlumbLikeTom]

It was a new one for me as well mate, I think it was a grade 3 so weighed a bit more than the paper thin grade 4's, thanks for watching as always mate

[@jamesknowles550]

Hi Tom -- yes the comment by Danny Wilkins is well right a direct cylinder was connected to some of the old copper back- boilers that were behind the coal fires -- the cylinder would have really hot water temperature if no hot water was drawn off + the coal fire was burning for hours !! -- no health + safety then eh !! even the old galvanised supply tank would be really hot with the water that had expanded from the cylinder ! -- take care Tom -- Jim

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support as always Jim, the tank above the cylinder was plastic on this one, I guess someone had changed it and not realised it needed to be metal, lucky it never split or melted

[@andyfadian]

Great video Tom, I wouldn’t mind seeing a wood burner install if possible. 👏👏

[@PlumbLikeTom]

No worries Andy, I will do my best to film the next one I fit, thanks for watching as always

[@paulthompson5416]

Tidy job as always Tom Yes I’d be interested in a burner install, I’ve never done one or even been on site whilst one is getting done. Bit of a nosey git that way 😂

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support as always Paul, I will try and get some footage, to be honest they are easy enough to install, but there are a few important rules that must be followed

[@paulthompson5416]

@@PlumbLikeTom look forward to it Tom 👍🏼

[@chrisholt2474]

Hi Tom, another great film thank you Tom, like you say, every day is a school day in plumbing. After a lot of years I still enjoy learning something new, I’m never too old or too good to learn more from others. It appears to have been another busy week for you, have some rest and I look forward to the under floor heating job. Thanks Tom, take care. 👍👍👍

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support as always Chris, I think I love the job so much because you never stop learning, the next few weeks are looking very busy but I'm looking forward to getting stuck in, have a great rest of the weekend mate

[@pb9926]

Great video Tom. A friend of mine had the same set up in a house he brought, it was quite common back in the day. We decommissioned his in the mid 90's.👍

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support as always PB, this one was a new one for me, I will know for nest time when I come across another

[@dannywilkins887]

Good work Tom, a direct cylinder connected to a back boiler used to be common, a lot of boilers had a cleanout for sludge and rust removal

[@PlumbLikeTom]

It's the first one I'd seen done like this, it was no bad thing the cylinder was changed anyway as the old one was getting on a bit and was filled with horrible looking water, thanks for watching as always mate

[@peterdawson5115]

Something new everyday Tom I guess, a rare find, looked good with the new one in though, hope alls well, take care 🚽👍

[@paul_my_plumbs_uk]

Time to employ me Tom as your left hand man✋✋😂😂 as i'm lefthanded. Don't forget my share of the weigh in 🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑

[@PlumbLikeTom]

I could do with a left hand and a right hand man next week Paul, it's looking very busy for the next few weeks which is good but it means I really need to put some graft in

[@julianhawker7672]

If you section the bbu Tom , I expect its glass lined! You could then run direct to cylinder without the rusty contamination that a straight cast boiler would give to the DHW. All very old school even when I was starting out Plumbing/Heating ( in the dark ages.....) 🤣 I remember Aga and Rayburn doing a glass lined boiler option for solid fuel cookers, most of that style of direct cylinder I ever came across were steel galv and had a big bolt on access door ( we called them "mud doors" ) they could be removed and the inside of the cylinder cleaned out. HTH. 👍

[@PlumbLikeTom]

I never actually saw the back boiler on this one as the lads had already ripped it out, I just got a phone call saying the water wouldn't stop running from it, it will have only stopped when it had emptied the entire cylinder and the storage cistern It was the first one I'd seen done like this to be honest, thanks for the information, It's defiantly something I will be looking out for in the future, In the end I was pleased to have changed the cylinder as it was quite old and looked filthy inside, I certainly wouldn't had wanted to be bathing in it

[@brendanfisher2528]

I'm just guessing. But I'm thinking the back boiler was a 4 pipe and 2 of the pipes went to the cylinder. But the water in the pipes are the same hot water you wash with so it all mixed. What I can't understand though is why it wasn't black with heating water... Great video as always mate

[@PlumbLikeTom]

The lads ripped out the bbu so I didn't actually see it but there only appeared to be two pipes going into the fireplace opening, I guess the bbu would have been copper and the water would have been constantly changing in the pipes so it would have stayed fairly clean, I've not seen one done like this before, all the ones I had seen are been proper indirect cylinders with a separate header tank for the bbu, thanks for watching as always 👍

[@neilbarker5042]

In the late 70s we would fit solid fuel back boilers on direct cylinders, no corrosion issues boiler was copper cylinder copper and circulation pipes were either lead or later copper, enjoying your content Tom 👍

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support as always Neil, it's the first one I'd seen like this, I wondered why there was little corrosion but if the back boiler was copper that would make more sense

[@Plumbingbob]

I reckon that cylinder was a Friday afternoon job at the Albion factory 😂 I know of a few primatics in my local East Yorkshire town. I got caught out by one of them doing some leak repairs and then found myself twiddling my thumbs for ages while I got it all refilled. Great content as always Tom and may the pipe gods be forever in your favour.

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support as always Robert, I honestly thought this was a primatic as there was no header tank, you don't see to many any more, the last one I came across was in an old property that I replaced for an unvented cylinder, have a great rest of the weekend mate

[@normanboyes4983]

So essentially it was just a heat sink for the BBU and they showered/bathed/washed up in hot water that had circulated through the BBU (primary and only circuit).

[@PlumbLikeTom]

That's how was done mate, I wrongly assumed there was a coil inside the cylinder, thanks for watching

[@iainbrown6771]

Convection old boy. That's all it used to be on the old solid fuel back boilers. The cylinder will be heavier though 😂

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support mate, nice little bit of scrap for the tax man

[@iainbrown6771]

@@PlumbLikeTom keep up the great work on the videos. The old bbu one just gives an insight into a day in the life 👍

[@MegaShan001]

Nice one Tom 👍🏻

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support as always Shaun

[@diddywright6165]

Good content Tom, every day IS a school day I like the fact you can learn new stuff almost on a weekly basis. Wouldn’t mind seeing a start to finish wood burner install to current regs mate👍🏻 have a good weekend

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Next one I do I will do my best to film from start to finish, when I get round to sorting my house out I'm fitting one in there so will be able to get some good footage on that one, thanks for watching as always mate, it is greatly appreciated 👍

[@brianmayne6513]

Hi tom. Another good video

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support as always Brain

[@truthseeker7794]

Hi Tom great vid as always. I was an electrician/plumber in my day and I was always puzzled by the things I found in plumbing much more so than with electrics. I too have come across these strange tanks. I was lucky enough to retire at the age of 48. I've just turned 64 but am still roped in to do the odd job for family, friends and neighbours. I often have to remove old pipe work and am often baffled by the strange sealants I find on old water and gas pipe work. A plumber I spoke to recently told me he still used boss white and a thing called tru blue on gas and water. I just wondered what your view was on this. I remember my dad using red lead to seal the thread on our immersion heater back in the 60's.

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for the support mate, I use jet blue plus on all my plumbing connections, it's very similar to the old boss white, but boss white shouldn't really be used for drinking water, old school plumbers would always use boss white and hemp on male joints, I use locktite 55 on male threads as it's so much cleaner and quicker than hemp, the tru blu sounds like a very similar product to jet blue I use, thanks for watching 👍

[@IJHougfhton]

All solid fuel back in the day was Direct cylinders

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for watching mate, this one had me confused, I probably could have just capped the coil but the cylinder was a fair age

[@dennisphoenix1]

I have seen the same type of set up with wood burners with a small stainless back boiler (3kw / 10,000 btu's ) . Issue is you can't fit a heat leak radiator to dissipate the heat once the water is hot . My wood burner has a small back boiler , indirect cylinder and heat leak radiator. Great in the winter , you get free heat and hot water . Wood burner content would be welcome.

[@PlumbLikeTom]

This one had no heat leak and was connected directly into the cylinder, the storage cistern should have been metal as if the thing had ever boiled it could well have melted the thing, you're setup is ideal, and that's how I've normally seen them, thanks for the support as always mate

[@Heatking]

Great video Tom, never seen a cylinder like that either :/

[@PlumbLikeTom]

It was a new one on me Dan, thanks for watching as always

[@plumberdan5720]

Hi tom another great video, how come you cant use a primatic cyclinder as a direct by just capping the flow and return off?

[@PlumbLikeTom]

You probably could get away with it, I was just concerned it would be full of manky water inside, I wouldn't like to bath in heating water that's been sat, so I though it would just be best to change the cylinder and give the customer the best possible job, thanks for watching mate

[@27forme2]

A direct system the backboiler was copper also

[@PlumbLikeTom]

The lads must have had that away, it wasn't on site, thanks for watching as always

[@SuperWayneyb]

🤘😎🤘

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Thanks for watching as always Wayne

[@Tom_Plumb_PHS]

So the fire/boiler heats up the water in first tank that feeds the coil in the 2nd tank to give them hot water? Have I got that right? Haven't got to hot water yet in college and old systems are a weak spot for me. I've only ever lived in houses with combi systems.

[@PlumbLikeTom]

The fire heats the boiler behind, also known as a back boiler, all the back boiler is, is a small chamber with 2 pipes going from it, these are normally always 28mm and are just work on gravity, as the fire gets hot, the heat will rise through the pipes and heat the cylinder, there was no coil inside this cylinder, so the water inside the cylinder used for the hot taps, is the same as the water inside the boiler. I haven't seen one done like this before, normally you would have a coil, to keep the dirty boiler water separate from the water inside the cylinder that feeds the taps, and a separate storage tank to fill the back boiler, these storage cisterns for solid fuel should always be metal with copper floats, as the water can get extremely hot. As a plumber, our job is always to stop water from boiling, that's why we have so many thermostats and safety valves on modern cylinders and boilers, these old solid fuel systems have no control so there is a great risk of things getting way to hot

[@Tom_Plumb_PHS]

@@PlumbLikeTom thanks for the explanation, always appreciate you taking the time to help me. My mum and dad had an f and e system when I was little that I just about remember, I think their feed tank in loft was galvy steel, it was run off an old open flue gas boiler. Looking forward to doing it in college and filling in the gaps in my knowledge. 😊

[@WorldTubeFacts]

how long duration of the level 2 plumber course to start a job or work to start earning in the UK and need your valuable reply. Thanks

[@daviddraper5485]

Used to be used on Aga or Rayburn direct .

[@daviddraper5485]

They would have vitreous lined boilers.

[@PlumbLikeTom]

I think you could well be right mate, I hadn't seen one done like this before, everyday is a school day in this job, thanks for watching

[@matthewtrueblood408]

Maybe it was a bbu circulator(Maxol/Carina); very common in the 80’s. These were connected to direct cylinders.

[@PlumbLikeTom]

You could well be right mate, I hadn't seen one like this before, thanks for watching as always

[@matthewtrueblood408]

If the property had no heating/radiators then I bet it was a circulator bbu. Think their heat exchangers were either aluminium or copper. They weren’t nice to service and were usually fitted behind a RW Firegem gas fire.

[@HenryMcgovern]

Water in cylinder just mixes with the bbu and that was the hot to house..

[@PlumbLikeTom]

That was it mate, it was the first one I had seen done like this, in the end I was pleased to have changed the cylinder as it was quite old and was filled with manky looking water

[@raymcknight753]

A REAL PRIMATIC CYLINDER WORKS WITH AN AIR LOCK TO SEPERATE THE CENTRAL HEATING FROM THE DOMESTIC HOT WATER..ALSO A BBU NEEDS AN INDIRECT CYLINDER AND HEADER TANK IF YOU DO NOT REPLACE IT WITH A NEW PRIMATICCYLINDER WHICH YOU PROBABLY CANT GET ANYMORE ANY WAY.. KEEP UP THE VIDEOS TOM GREAT WATCH

[@PlumbLikeTom]

The BBU has been taken out now as the customer just wanted a log burner with no primary circuits, I just replaced the cylinder with a direct one which is now only heated by an immersion heater, there was no boiler fitted as the house had storage heaters, I wrongly assumed there was a coil inside the old cylinder and it was a primatic, I have never seen a system piped like this where the heating water has been mixed with the hot water in this way, thanks for watching

[@davehunter6920]

BBU? back boiler?

[@PlumbLikeTom]

Yes mate, a bbu is a back boiler, this one was heated from the open fire which fed the pipes that ran into the cylinder, I wrongly assumed the cylinder had a coil in it, thanks for watching

[@davehunter6920]

@@PlumbLikeTom thanks mate ..must have been a header tank in loft?

[@dennisphoenix1]

@@davehunter6920 there would be no feed and expansion as you would have on a standard domestic central heating system. On this the 2 systems are combined so only one cws , looked like 25 gallons

[@riptiz]

@@davehunter6920not on a direct cylinder.

[@jockster5525]

Must of been a stainless bbu coal im presuming .. old system now but still a lot of them out there mate

[@PlumbLikeTom]

I never saw the BBU to be honest as the lads had already opened up the fireplace and taken it out, It's the first time I've seen one like this, thanks for the support as always Jock