What you NEED to KNOW before Buying (Fit Changes, Reach, etc.,)

[@Punkyrooster6]

You’ve really got this formula dialed in. Interesting topics, good journalism, and consistent philosophy. The supple life. The implications go beyond cycling.

[@TOCycleCommuter]

Ohhh, I love geometry! None of the equations and all of the reality. You say you're just an enthusiast, and I'm enthusiastic to see what you do.

[@TrailFeatures]

Russ: "Don't Freak out." Armchair Mechanics: "Challenge accepted..."

[@oliverracz2686]

What you are measuring here can be easily calculated using the Pythagorean theorem. In practice, the difference is going to be even smaller, since the distance that really matters is that from your shoulder to the handlebar, not from the saddle. A couple centimeters of change in with will have a barely noticeable effect on reach, but will influence other things more significantly.

[@vicduncan]

Handel bars aside, I love that you have a hip yellow couch in front of your washer and dryer. Gotta stay chill while washing those chamois.

[@heathriley4891]

Nitto used to make some great drop-bars around 54 or 56cm wide back in the 90s. I used to ride around San Diego and Tecalote Canyon with them on a Rockhopper with the spooky-quiet LX hubs and derailleur. I'm glad they're coming back.

[@heathriley4891]

@RollinRat Definitely. I don't like the flared bars, plain-old straight drops over 50cm are great for me. 46cm is about as narrow as I can stand if it's not through tight trails more than not. They're just a bit too narrow for long rides, though, for me. Have you thought about anodizing them yourself? Or paying a professional shop in your area to anodize them? I don't know if there's any reliability concerns with that, but that's my first thought. Barring that, just a good powder-coating or painting . . . : ) I ride older bikes, so most are rattle-canned. Right now, I'm between bikes. And with this "human malware", I'll be between them for a while. : (

[@basstrom88]

I changed my Easton EA70 AX 44cm (80mm bar reach) bars to Ritchey Venturemax 46cm bars (shorter 76mm bar reach), originally both with a 90mm stem. That resulted in only a ~1.5mm change in the total reach as measured here (455.6mm to 457.08mm). But the extra width combined with the flared drops on the Ritcheys made them feel almost proportionally more stable and slow to turn with the 90mm stem. Changing to a 70mm stem with the wider bars made the steering feel similar on the hoods, with extra benefit on the drops. So leverage about the steering axis relative to your body position definitely adds another factor on top of reach.

[@PierreJohnsonOnline]

I'm thinking of getting a Ritchey Comp Venturemax for that extra flare. I currently have a handlebar with a 16° flare and 44 cm wide, which feels right at the model. The 24° flare of the Ritchey model seems better, but it's only available in 46 cm size in my country. Would you say 44 or 46 cm make a big difference, and would it be appropriate in my case?

[@basstrom88]

@@PierreJohnsonOnline it is noticeable, especially in the drops because the flare adds width. But it's not extreme. I still use the 46cm for general riding and commuting. It's a great bar. I've since bought the Venturemax XL 52cm for bikepacking, and that makes a LOT of difference. They are almost too wide for normal riding, but I find them great when loaded up with gear because of the leverage, clearance and stability.

[@stillshotprod]

Time to break out the trigonometry

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Ugh. Shoot me now.

[@citizenwolf8720]

On my gravel bike I have a 60cm flatbar with bar-ends and I do use a shorter stem than with dropbars. I use Shimano XT brake-levers and shifters with the flat-bar set-up. I was originally using a 46cm flared drop-bar with Ultegra shifters and brake levers. I've found the XT to be far better and quicker and more reliable at shifting up and down when on rough terrain. And you can obviously also do the gear-shifting and braking in a more upright position which is handy on bumpy rough terrain (at least I think so). The XT set-up also allowed me to change the front chainring to a triple XT chainring which is definitely better than the double Ultegra chainring I was originally using. I have a far greater spread of gears and I definitely need them all because the terrain I ride over is quite varied. The front chainring is 44, 34, 24 and the rear cassette is either an 11-speed Ultegra 11-32 (when using my wider 700x43 tire wheelset) or an 11-speed Ultegra 11-25 (when using my commuting 700x32 tire wheelset). I can link to a photo later if interested in seeing the set-up.

[@lincolnloop060]

Haha you may not say you know math, but you just experimentally proved how the change in reach from change in bar width is not linear! Nice vid

[@hardmtnbiker]

Good analysis and in my opinion a proper set up and fitting on a gravel bike is more critical than any other bike fit.

[@electreked]

I have replaced my stock bars with 44cm cowchipper 2 on my Trek 520 (stock was 42 cm race style drop bars) and went to 46 cm Ritchey Venturemax on my trek 920 (stock was 42cm). Both were good upgrades for me but to make the fit feel like you are bolted in to the bike try adding Road TOGS to the drops (not paid promotion). The difference when descending and ascending is really confidence inspiring. Thank You so much for your videos Russ !

[@MrRaney661]

Hey Ed, Fellow 920 owner here. I think i've seen that product. I have really long legs and a short torso, I'm thinking about trying 50 cm cowchippers on my 920. I'm currently running 44cm on a 80mm stem. Trying to figure out what stem length I should go.

[@electreked]

@@MrRaney661 From the measurements that Russ has done you may be able to calculate how short your stem should be . I find the 46 cm bars to be as wide as I would like to go for comfort reasons. Given the choice I think I would prefer the Venturemax bars with the ergo grip over the cowchippers. They are very comfy with double wrapped bar tape.

[@mitmon_8538]

Thanks for tinkering for our benefit! I have a bar that I love and I don't think I'll swap away from it. It's 46cm wide with a 25° flare of the drops. So it gets pretty wide at the bar ends. When I take the bike indoors, it's not very fun to get through doorways and such. I don't think I'd ever go wider because of this. That said, I've recently ridden a bike with narrower bars and it felt weird. Wonder if a wider bar would make my current one feel weird/worse? Bah, ignorance is bliss, so I'm good.

[@mf0u3021]

If you think of your shoulder as a fixed point. Rotate your arm so your hand moves 1cm (for a 2cm bar size increase). The distance your hand has moved towards you on the arc (and away from the perpendicular fixed bar) is absolutely minimal. So makes sense that a much wider bar only needs a small change in stem length to have the equivalent reach number.

[@AperturezerO]

Non fitter perspective: As one's bars get wider, the trapezoid formed by your 2 hands and shoulders would just get shorter (its height would decrease), so your stem would ideally change to keep your bars in the plane of this trapezoid. Thus, your stack *and* reach would necessarily change. How much? Using some trigonometry, my own arm and torso measurements (I'm 5.5 ft tall), and assuming my arms are at 45 deg relative to the horizontal, my horizontal reach should change by 3.6 mm between a 40 cm and a 52 cm bar. I think wrist and shoulder orientation are more strongly affected by bar width.

[@nikveldkamp8630]

I agree with you there that the 3dimensional changes to joint angles and vectors in wrist, elbow and shoulder are quite too complex to pin an abtract number on that would help us in bike fitting to feel good on the bike. (PLUS bar factors as drop, reach, flare, sweep of the drops, bend of the tops & drops, tube diameter - e.g. check out the 3T Superghiaia: two completely different forms and diameters of the drops depending on size 40 or 44cm in the tops). The right stem reduction would just compensate for the same angle of your hips and neck. (For the real-world steering changes, if wider bars compensate for a shorter stem, which is generally taken into consideration when choosing a steerer angle, see current MTBs - that's a field for frame builders and very diversely experienced riders, I'm out of my depths here.) Stack, reach & their ratio however are not affected by this as those are frame measurements from the top of the steerer tube, horizontally back to drop a plumb line to the BB. Necessary due to varying sloping top tubes and compact geometries (since frames like the Giant TCR came up) in order to compare frame characteristics.

[@everyinterestingthings2512]

Just a curious note. These wide bars on gravel/allroad bikes should be followed by some tweak in frame geometry. If i would use 48 cm bar with 70/80mm stem with traditional CX geometry how will it feel compared to, lets say, a vaya or a crust bike. Should be interesting topic to compare

[@mathewphipps7724]

Fkyeah, bike science! Love it, keep it up Russ!

[@everyinterestingthings2512]

I'll stay with my 44 cowchipper, just to fit better in the bike bag for travel. Also the fargo doesn't seem to like the shorter stem. I'm running 80 and probably go back to 90

[@FerventDissent]

You're changing sides of a triangle, you should write some 3D trig equations in a spreadsheet. Also think about hip angle changes from stem and bar length changes.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

English major.

[@AlMartinsvidplace]

@@PathLessPedaledTV Hmm, in Canada trig and geometry is like grade 10 or 11 math...I remember that stuff from 40 years ago...but then again NOT English major and cannot remember my assigned soliloquy from The Merchant of Venice

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

I think the last time I used trig was about 30 years ago. I would trust a tape measure more than my math. Quoth Shakespeare.

[@Bilbo736]

@@PathLessPedaledTV SOH-CAH-TOA - Euclid probably

[@krlgrudzinski]

@@AlMartinsvidplace Education systems are different in every country. I've learned Pythagorean theorem when I was 11 or 12, I don't know which grade it is in American system.

[@avenpace]

Just ordered Ritchey VentureMax 44cm bars, swapping from standard 42cm road bars - I hope I made the right choice going bit wider first time, the flare is 24° on them, and I like everything about them, and heard only good things from people praising these bars.

[@griffymon]

Any update? I am considering going from standard 42cm bars to 44cm Salsa Cowchippera (with the same 24° flare).

[@avenpace]

@@griffymon My hands, wrists would be in a little awkward bent position because of the flare when on the hoods if I would stick to 42cm, so I am glad that I went with 44cm, much better, 2cm extra compensates for that, and feels great, and super stable when I ride on those drops, great bars. I miss the flatened tops a little bit, when I ride long distance, but it's not a big deal, now I can mount my light and whatever I like on top. I use Supacaz super sticky kush galaxy tape on these bars, looks great.

[@decentdiversions]

I wonder if you could do some basic geometry math... your question is basically finding the hypotenuse (seat to hash mark) of an obtuse scalene triangle. You might be able to figure it out without installing the bars so many times. Apply the Pythagorean Theorem: a^2+b^2=c^2, where a is the distance from seat to stem/handlebar, b is the distance from the centre of the bar to the first hashmark and c equals the length of seat to the first hash mark (the hypotenuse). Bike nerds!

[@billybaader3166]

made me think to do just that while watching the video. based on the first set of measurements (57cm reach for 46cm bar), i calculated the saddle to stem length at 52.1cm. using that and then assuming that the bar widths are exactly what they claim to be, the pythagorean theorem gives me a saddle to bar measurement of 57.4cm for 48cm bars and then 58.3cm for 52cm bars. so, not too far off from what was in the video, and the changes aren't as drastic as you might think.

[@earthstick]

@@billybaader3166 I did the same but I got 52.8 for the saddle to bar distance based on 59cm reach for a 52cm bar. There's going to be some variation because we don't know the exact measurements.

[@pedaldriven417]

Does the shorter stem make it twitchy?What is the lowest mm for a touring bike ?With salsa cow bell. Thank you 🙏🏻

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Yes. Shorter stem increases responsiveness. But a wider bar can also balance it out.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

bicycleutopia each their own. I’m constantly riding bikes side by side and can tell the difference. Even from my recent bike fit swapping from 90 to 80 was a noticeable difference in handling.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

bicycleutopia so your telling me if you had a bike with road bike front end and downhill bike front end there is no difference?

[@pedaldriven417]

I think the further away from the front axle the more you will notice a difference .Even at 5mm.But not sure I want a wider handle bar.

[@scotti_wan_kenobi]

@@bicycleutopia I put a 10mm longer stem on my full suss mountain bike because the reach was 10mm shorter than my hardtail and I could definitely feel a difference in the steering feel that I wasn't expecting to.

[@MilkBone3327]

Cool! I still can’t get used to the narrow handlebars on a gravel bike after mountain biking. I been wondering how I could adjust my gravel ride before I good things up. Thanks for sharing.

[@BrianRPaterson]

Spot on! I have exactly the same feeling. A "wide" road bar is 44cm, which is just over half the width of most MTB bars these days *(80cm). Even ultra-wide gravel bars barely make it into 50cm widths, which is a fraction of what I'm used to from my MTB experience. That said, I have always quite liked having a bit of rise on my bars, so I'm edging towards a Surly Truck stop bar with 30mm of rise. The widest is still only 48cm, but I'm hoping I'll get used to it. It will certainly beat the 40, 42 and 44cm bars most bikes seem to come with.

[@billmaidment5623]

Thanks for this review Russ. I really wanted to join the wide bar nation but it didn’t feel right. I typically ride a 40-42cm compact bar but recently tried the Whiskey No9 24F (aka Cowchipper) 42cm. I set them up with to match my position with both the bar angle and hoods positioned to match my reach. I got the angle of the hoods mostly straight and overall the top and hood hand positions felt great. It was the drop position that failed to impress me. While stable the 52cm width added a lot of reach and put my wrist at an awkward angle. Tucking down felt even more awkward. To make it work I think I’d have to raise the bars significantly which would compromise my other positions. It’s just not for me. Russ, I think it would helpful to show the reach distance to the drops too. Thanks for the information.

[@8iamretarded8]

people like what they become accustomed to nothing wrong with that. same for me when i swapped my venturemax for less flare. didnt like and never used any other drop bar so a flared bar 'feels' like the default hand position.

[@johnnydoe66]

From the information I have seen on bike fit, bar width and shoulder width can affect a rider position. A narrow/smaller rider may be negatively affected by running too wide a bar. With your arms splayed outward too far, as fatigue sets in a rider may start to slouch, shrug their shoulders, or drop their head/neck. Understandably, a wider bar adds stability (ie mtn biking), short stems quicken the steering, but I believe there can be a point of making the bike uncomfortable on longer rides. With mtn biking, you tend to move around more and not as fixed in your position as with a road or gravel bike. Just a thought (I too am not a bike fitter, but I have done a lot of reading/researching/watching of bike fit advice).

[@tve1964]

Things are exactly as you say. Sadly, folks prefer coolness over confort. If one rides so long hours on terrain where ultra wide drop bars are truly better that normal width drop bars (42-46 cm), that means one should ride a mountain bike instead. A gravel bike is meant to ride on gravel roads and the odd single from time to time. On those , one should just take it a tad slower and it'll be just fine. No reason to compromise comfort and health on 90% of the time. I am amazed at what people are prepared to do to look cool (I remember the times when extra short was cool in MTB; cool guys hack-sawed their flat bars to be cool).

[@lorenzsiggel1515]

I bought some 48cm flared bars last year and the issue/challenge/problem I see with wider bars is finding bar tape that is long enough since 48cm was pushing the limit of my bar tape (without a figure 8 wrap around the brifter). A quick and dirty estimate is: For each wrap of a longer bar you need 3.14 (PI to two places) x diameter, and roughly speaking each wrap is a bit over 1cm wide and diameter is around 2cm so let's call it ca. 6cm longer tape for each additional cm width. Current commercial bar tapes are primarily aimed at road bars of up to 44cm.......I'm sure the manufacturers will cover it with gravel specific tape: longer with more padding of 4-5mm would be welcome since I put down some 5mm mouse pad under the tape on the tops (this also increases diameter and the amount of tape needed) to act as a shock absorber. I'm 194cm tall (6'4") and have wide shoulders so that a 52cm bar would be great....but I just invested in a new bar a while back....damn!

[@fleurdelispens]

square root functions for the win!

[@chriswatson2407]

Using what we used to call cowbars back in the day I won the slow bike race at the summer games in school aged 7. Very stable platform though impractical.

[@mikkol79]

This is useful info. Thanks!

[@stevemillerster]

Puzzling- I’m interested to learn more through your experiments!

[@danenglishoutside443]

I need to try out some wide bars, it might help with numbness as well as control having my bars more shoulder width. Also coming from Mtb it took me quite a while to get used to drops. Nice work!

[@shannonstrobel6727]

Origin8 makes a 620mm wide drop bar - the Gary Ergo Sweep. I have it and I love it. Almost like riding an MTB with drop-bars

[@sventice]

Wider handlebars are not necessarily better. I'm not built like a rugby player, and the 44cm bars that came stock with my "gravel" bike always seemed too wide; especially on longer rides, I nearly always experienced neck and shoulder pain. I switched to a 40 cm handlebar, which is pretty close to my actual shoulder width, and the pain disappeared, with no appreciable loss of control on climbs. The only downside is that I had to also go with a smaller handlebar bag because the one I had doesn't fit on the narrower bars.

[@maxredburn6610]

Very cool, thanks for experimenting

[@elachichai]

Could you compare Ritchie Beacon XL with Red Shift Kitchen Sink handlebars? And vs Cow Chipper

[@leqin]

Russ can we have the Make and Model on the handy dandy tape measure please thankyou :.)

[@SortaKindaOutside]

Thanks for the video, I was on the fence on which cow chipper to get and I’m sold on the 52”

[@3j0hn]

So, working out the geometry simplified to two dimensions you're looking at the pythagorean theorem (TT + Stem)^2 + (HandleBar/2)^2 = Reach^2. If you so some silly math stuff to these equations, it suggests a 2cm change in bar width suggests a only 5mm reduction in stem length to keep diagonal Reach constant (this number is actually dependent on TT+stem length, the shorter the TT, the bigger the change in Reach, but that effect is modest +/- 1mm per 20cm of TT). So the 1cm jump from 48cm to 52cm is the one I'd be inclined to trust.

[@jaydesimone4297]

It's geometry, you could find this result by math; a² + b² = c². Assume a is the handlebar from the center point to the hatch mark, b is the distance from the seat tip to the center of the handlebar, and you can work out the distance from the seat tip to the hatch mark, c. No need to actually mount all 3 bars (unless the bars have a curve other than the drops, which makes things more complicated).

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

The problem is the “a” measurement is floating in air since the hash mark is slightly ahead of the flat part of the bar. Taking this measurement three times seemed more potentially more inaccurate than simply measuring the diagonal with tape.

[@Graptos]

Wondering if there is a ratio of shoulder width to arm length calculation to find that sweet spot. Bike came with 40mm, swapped up to a 42 Ritchey Venturemax (👍) and wanted something a bit wider, demoed a Spank Flare 25 in 46mm and found that a bit too wide, so next test bar will be 44 with a flare (quite liked the Spank too). Arms: 33” Height: 6’ 1” Jacket: 40 tall

[@davidgriffin8717]

Flipping the stem would also shorten the reach as it brought the bars upward.

[@kruschrhoades]

Bars appropriate to your shoulder width create the most efficient line of pull for road riding specifically. That being said, I ride the pnw 520's.🤣

[@andrewhamilton3486]

Is it possible that the actual reach on the 52cm bar is less than the narrower bars?? That would help explain the small relative increase in the saddle tip to bar measurements??

[@jackhammer40k_]

HEy Russ. What Dynamo set up do you use and what do you make of it? Thanks

[@Insolation1]

Much more control having these wide bars in crosswind gusts, especially on tarmac. I stuck wide bars on my road racer because I live in a 80 percent windy area, huge difference it makes, I can go out now in days that used to avoid because of the wind strength.

[@Mantis858585]

Is it harder to tuck and hide from a headwind with wider bars?

[@Insolation1]

@@Mantis858585 Headwinds only slow you down, sidewinds can take your bike off the road or into on coming traffic.

[@ramellisred3128]

Is it best to position the levers aligned with the flare?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

IMO no. You should do what is right for your wrists.

[@myfavouritechair]

Great work russ

[@earthstick]

The reach as you are measuring it is the hypotenuse of a right-angle triangle. You know the width of the bars so one side of the triangle is half that width. Another side is the distance from the saddle nose to the centre of the bars. The reach is the length of the third side of that triangle. If your bars are 52cm wide and you get a hypotenuse of 59 then the distance from the saddle nose to the bars must be about 53cm. Am I right? If so then from that I can work out that the hypotenuse of a 48cm bar is about 58.18 cm and the hypotenuse for a 46 cm bar is about 57.78. So the reach that looks odd to me is the reach for the narrowest bar. It is closer to 58 than 57.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

👏

[@alexlikesoutdoors5825]

Hey Russ, thanks for the info! Would you mind telling us which front rack you have mounted on that Crust frame? Thanks man.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Crust mini porter rack.

[@broadfjord7087]

I went from a 420mm bar with 15mm rise and minimal flair w/90mm stem to the 460mm cow chipper w/90mm stem and double the flare. It’s OK but it is a little more stretched than i would like. In a article on the PNW wide gravel bars PNW suggests for every 20mm increase on the bars a10mm reduction on the stem. I haven’t done the swap yet but that sounds about right to me and I’m going to give the 70mm stem a go.

[@broadfjord7087]

Yep, 70 mm stem with the 46 cm bar is awesome!

[@martinbergman7693]

I think it would be a sound idea to measure both sides (L + R) for each sample bar and then average the pair of values. I don't know how rigidly the front fork of your test bike is attached to the stand, but this procedure would cancel any errors due to the fork and steerer turning a little between measurements.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

The fork is locked into the stand and does not move. Eliminating any error from accidental fork movement.

[@JeffLow85]

I notice that you weren't paying particularly close attention to the bar roll. I don't know if this would have a significant impact or not, but I feel that you could easily yield a 0.5cm change. Given there are hash marks on the bar, you could have aligned them all to the center of the stem.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

I leveled them all to the same angle. Centering them would have tilted the bars downward causing me to have to wrap the tape down the slope of the bar. I set the angle so it could be the most level line to the first hash mark.

[@JeffLow85]

@@PathLessPedaledTV you totally did! I made this comment before you broke out the leveling app...I contemplated deleting it...but here we are. Also, I meant the hash marks at the stem faceplate. Not the bar marks you were measuring to.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Yes. I know. If I centered the hash marks on the face plate the hash marks on the ends of the bar would be tilted downwards.

[@selder03]

Love this video. Would like to see you on the bike with a side view of your back. I feel that the hips, the angle would change as well Thanks again for the great info.

[@billzielke6798]

The problem may lie in the hash marks. Are they an equal distance from the flat of the bar? Seems likely that a hash mark could be an arbitrary mark as opposed to a mark set at the same exact distance bar to bar...I.e. the first hash mark is one inch from the bend in bar one and the first hash mark for bar two is two inches from the bend. Distance from the bend needs to be a measured distance not an assumed distance.

[@AlfieGame]

I thought I could use the hash marks on my Cowchipper to set equal position for my brifters. Turns out, the hash marks aren’t symmetrical at all! So yes, certainly arbitrary or the factory process is broken and they haven’t noticed.

[@earthstick]

What I want to know is what is the benefit for flared drops?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Wider stance. More control on descents.

[@adamwood9610]

Interesting! You’ve hit on a reason that might be pushing more people to go with wider drop bars: to counteract the ever-decreasing reach that manufacturers put in their bars. One thing I haven’t seen discussed a lot is the fact that reach also impacts leverage. Leverage is based on distance from the pivot point (headset) and just like wider bars, bars with more reach also lengthen the lever arm (see mom? I WAS listening during physics!). Interestingly, depending on the bars and your stem length chosen, widening your bars (if you simultaneously shorten your stem) could potentially result in no net change to leverage. I’d need to do the math on that. Another logical reason for wider bars that few people seem to discuss is to account for the effective narrowing of the brake hoods that flare (which is usually significant on wider bars) has. I run Shimano 9sp brifters on 46cm Cowchippers and the ends/tips of the hoods are just over 40cm apart on center due to the 24 degree flare. This puts my primary hand position at about 44cm which is still a bit wide for me (I’m 6’4” with ~40 cm between my shoulder joints). Other than aerodynamics, one of the big advantages of “narrower” bars (that is, bars that put your most common contact point at about the width of your shoulders) is that they provide better support for your upper body on long rides depending on your position on your bike. Do a few regular pushups. Now move your hands 8-12 inches farther apart and do some more. Which was harder? There’s a reason trainers want people to do wide pushups: they focus on the pectorals and reduce the burden-sharing with other muscles. That’s great for getting ripped I suppose, but not what I want on a long day in the saddle. I agree that the ability to fit larger bags is compelling and I’d rather have wider bars (than more reach) on truly rough terrain (e.g., where you’d normally take a mountain bike) because they provide a lever arm closer to 90 degrees. But all this bandwagoning over width for width’s sake is annoying and misguiding because it’s usually not referencing all the other factors at play. We’d all reject anyone running around telling everyone to “buy the longest stem you can find!” regardless of their frame size, body size, etc. But yet people keep pushing wider and wider bars as the cure-all.

[@8iamretarded8]

pivot side to side ie bar width increase has more impact than stem to add 'controllable' leverage or transfer input leverage. longer stem slows input and adds stability within certain parameters but does not add leverage in face it moves the leverage further away from the steering axis. if you had a 30cm wide flat handlebar with a 280mm long stem would that give the same steering control as a regular 42cm bar on a 100mm stem even though the leverage/distance from the steering axis is the same? (those are ballpark fugures by the way but you get the illustrated difference). we dont do pushups on our bikes now do we? have you seen the widths of DH bike cockpit these days? 800mm. your arms should be bent at the elbows on rough terrain for stability and wider bar adds triangulation = stability. yes to do a push-up the optimal width of you hands to push the largest load may well be narrower than what is optimal to steer/control a gravel bike. to add i dont agree measurements are taken from 'real-world' points but is does show how wider bars increase reach and will illustrate to anyone considering wider bars that most likely a shorter or taller stem adjustment may need to be made to keep the reach consistent. he should have measured at an average arms length & at shoulder width from the centre of the frame/saddle. which would decrease the amount of reach he recorded. at shoulder width you would prbably need +/- 2cm in width before any significant changes to reach.

[@adamwood9610]

@@8iamretarded8 I agree that width has more of an effect on leverage than stem length. But stem length still has an effect, if you compare apples to apples. A 30cm wide handlebar on a 100mm stem, will have more leverage than a 30cm wide handlebar on a 30mm long stem. You don't do pushups on your bike? You're missing out! Seriously though, there's a big difference in use case between a DH bike on steep single track and a gravel or allroad bike on flattish crushed stone. The amount of leverage needed, ability to go aero into a headwind, and body positioning differs greatly between the two.

[@justpedal65]

Hey Russ. I know this is 2 years late (hopefully I'll be late for my own funeral... 😁), and you might not even get this. But, did you check the forward sweep angle on the 48 and 52? Also the lever scale marks relative to the center stem clamp marks? Not sure it could make a cm difference, but as a retired manufacturing engineer, where troubleshooting was the name of the game, these were the two "unknowns" I would like to verify for the bigger "weird" difference.

[@sameoldcircus]

Hold the phone! Is that an edelux I see on the front rack? Are you rocking a hub generator?

[@kimrice394]

52😳 Didn’t know those were even available!

[@cccorlew]

As an old roadie this is a shocking video. My Roubaix came with 42s that felt too wide for me. I have 40s on it now. Are those super wide bars comfortable? I fear they's put my arms at a wide uncomfortable hard to hold all day position. Is everything I know wrong?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

It’s not wrong, it’s just not dictated entirely by road racing. Gravel has broken the silos and has allowed more products come to market that don’t have to be blessed by being used in the pro peloton.

[@rbranch234]

What's the tape measurer?

[@themoodyteam]

Broken, if he keeps using it like that 😮

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Ha. FML Can’t even use a tape measure without being criticized.

[@themoodyteam]

Path Less Pedaled Applogies Russ, but every time you extended it there was that awful ratcheting sound! Was there not a ‘locking’ button to press to prevent this? I did find the vid interesting, but ultimately the proof is in the ride; is it ergonomic and comfortable for the rider?

[@fbhidy]

I wouldn’t be as confident that the hash marks are in exactly the same place on each of the bars...

[@Korina42]

Or that the bends are exactly the same.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Like I said. Trying my best to my abilities.

[@bigguy64]

First thing I thought as well..

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Everyone’s got an opinion but no one else is making videos.

[@chrislowe3060]

You could check that by measuring from the end of the bar up to the hash mark. Assuming the drop and reach is the same across all widths this should allow you to easily check if the marks are in the same place.

[@frakafrocka]

This is an amazing video. Thank you

[@markmarlatt1105]

All I want is a drop bar that mtb shifters will fit on!

[@artgonzalez45]

RollinRat Tnx. I didn’t know about gator baruntil now. Looks loke it can accomodate std mtb levers.

[@ephybateman8508]

I'm putting together a new gravel build and hoping to put the SRAM GX Eagle AXS on drops.

[@markmarlatt1105]

Lol, I never saw these replys until the last one one!

[@HeySeeri]

I read this bit of advice on the PNW website... “A good rule of thumb is for every 20mm wider bar you go drop 10mm on your stem. Again a lot of this comes down to personal preference, but this is a good starting point for sizing. “. www.pnwcomponents.com/collections/coast-collection/products/coast-stem

[@MoyMacGill]

Cool bit of info thanks

[@8iamretarded8]

man that is WAYY off. terrible advice unless talking +600mm bar widths. im 55cm shoulder to palm. 39cm shoulder width. i need a bar width increase of around 6cm to reduce reach by 1cm. just roughly plotted this on the workshop bench. someone needs to perform a more scientific comparison.

[@BerkshireIdeas]

Where is the width changed? Is it by flaring the drops or is it across the top bar?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Both.

[@philtomlinson8220]

Another simple way of checking the angle of the bars would be to measure from the floor to the bar end. As along as the bike is solid in the workstand this should give repeatable results as long as you're using the same type of handlebar.

[@franciscopacheco5059]

Play with your stem and head tube geometry more... yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/stem.php

[@michaelmann6482]

English majors splainin’ maths 😂 I don’t ever try it unless the regular math teacher left good lesson plans.

[@edrcozonoking]

It hurts me to see so many people going to super wide bars and not adjusting their position. So they are have their arms completely stretched out and wonder why they have pain.

[@robbie6625]

0:33 That logo is definitely upside down... my OCD is firing on all cylinders...

[@sodalitia]

Nobody: Bike companies: lets promote a trend of super wide handle bars so we can sell more modifications and packing gear to cyclists with injured wrists.

[@WheelersAtLarge]

What you really need to do is make video using math😆😆😆 Hash mark control point? Ratchet tape measure? You're a true bike fit maverick😆😆😆😆

[@BIGTREESJOE]

Trigonometry is your friend

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

English was my major.

[@christophejournoud2773]

It's about trigonometry isn't it ? 🤓

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

English major.

[@runrobinson]

😂👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾

[@CokeforColor]

A huge downside with the "wider bar movement" is added shoulder/wrist fatigue. As your core gets tired on the bike you tend to rest on you hands and therefor shoulders and wrists, which also puts strain on your trapezius muscles. If you match your bar width to your skeletal structure it makes "resting" on the bars less stressful on the muscles. This is typically more important for lady riders, but a lot of men can benefit from actually going down in bar width.

[@earlcraig6995]

Hmm... all I know is that when I put wider drop bars on my bike my bike feels WAY more stable at slower speeds. A bit wider bar with a bit shorter stem. I have no math degrees. I don't ride on pavement much at all. I live on gravel--hundreds of miles of it in all directions. And when hill-climbing on a dirt two-track, the wider bar feels much more stable--less wiggly. My wrists don't hurt and I can "rest" no differently. Should note I'm 6'2" tall, though--and personal build is something everyone needs to keep in mind.

[@robbchastain3036]

It's okay, Russ, your using a Crust bike for demonstrational purposes. Something trusty like a Crusty.

[@DaneKromer]

If you need more reach, buy a longer stem! That’s been the answer for ever!!

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

While true, that was totally not the point of the video.

[@AdventuresWithDaniel]

Do you even bike fit bruh?!

[@hawkeye5035]

Not sure about the math (over my head), I have been lead to believe that the printed marks on a handlebar are not precise... nice experiment tho’

[@tve1964]

These very wide drop bars defeat even the most basic principles of ergonomy: don't force any part of your body into an unnatural position. If you do, your articulation will be strained then damaged. If one goes wide with the handlebar, one MUST put some backsweep otherwise the wrists will be forced into a DANGEROUS position when riding long hours. I can't believe anyone would invent let alone sell items like that.

[@earlcraig6995]

Well believe it. My bars measure 60cm at bar ends (approximately 46 cm at the hoods), and feel AWESOME.

[@tve1964]

@@earlcraig6995 Great ! Enjoy!

[@tve1964]

Well it seems that this industry keeps on its trend of reinventing the 90s MTB. It's becoming crazy/stupid! If you go out on MTB terrain, just get a MTB and be done with it. There are reasons that handlebar MTBs are designed the way they are.

[@samulihirsi]

as usual, you ride you, they ride way they like, there are many good reasons for both school of thoughts

[@lopezfielitz]

why so bitter

[@MidtownSkyport]

Nobody's going to take away your mountain bike my friend

[@tve1964]

​@@samulihirsi I ride the way I like and so does everyone. I am encouraged to post comment and that's what I do: express my opinion. Most people who want to sell present it as "new" and better. I like truly new and improved stuff too. But I also comment when I see what I see something to be presented as newer and better when it is not. Many people are just (winlingly) lured by influencers : just go ahead and buy the latest gizmo! That's materialism and I am not ashamed to oppose it (with words) when I'm given an opportunity. Russ does state that he does not recommend these bars and stays neutral. What's wrong with giving my opinion?

[@2321brendan]

But how does the MTB go on the 20 mile tarmac ride back home?