Stark Trek DS9: Bashir & Garak on Cardassian Literature

DS9's Elim Garak & Doctor Julian Bashir discuss Cardassian literature. I'm sure we've all read a couple of Repetitive Epics, in our time.
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[@mortman200]

So Cardassians don't like Whodunnit stories, they prefer Howdunnit instead.

[@omegastar19]

It even makes sense because in a different episode, where Chief Obrien is kidnapped and put on trial by Cardassians, it is explained that there is no presumption of innocence in the Cardassian legal system - if you are put on trial, you are already guilty.

[@nategraham6946]

More of a case of Whodunwat.

[@manjackson2772]

No no no, you misunderstand. A loyal Cardassian's favourite genre is the youdunnit.

[@supernova743]

They take the stance that everyone is guilty of something. The quest isn't to find the person guilty, they're all guilty of something. But can you match the many crimes with the many suspects. It's a twist on the murder mystery but with way more murders. In a sense this could be interesting even in our society. Is the person rightfully convicted if you convict them of the wrong crime? Is knowing they're a murderer enough if you don't know who they murdered. Can you really believe they are a murderer if you don't know who they murdered. Are you willing to toss someone away for murder if they've only committed a lesser crime and are you justified convicting a murderer for lesser crime they didn't commit? If you can't match all the crimes to the criminals how close is close enough to feel good about your deductions?

[@SgtCookie111]

What I'm hearing is, they'd _love_ Columbo.

[@liquidmark5081]

I’ll bet cardassians would love 1984. They’ll be rooting for big brother, of course.

[@samuellawrencesbookclub8250]

Possibly, but I imagine that they'd find the romance between Winston and Julia a bit extraneous and rather dull. Furthermore, family plays a key role in Cardassian culture, so I doubt they enjoy the destruction of familial bonds. However, I agree that they would, most likely, enjoy the concept of BB and the way the Party works

[@blastermasterguy]

Dissident Cardassian citizens would see it as almost prophetic yes. Cardassians who worked in the ministries or who were to brainwashed as to believe their civilization's system worked would naturally view it as an affront to their race.

[@ProfTuNichts]

the Scene: "There are four lights", is a perfect example of the Symbol "2+2=5" in 1984. I think they knew about the book 1984.

[@DocFlamingo]

So they're Democtas?

[@CorgiEnjoyer]

@@ProfTuNichts no, there's a scene when one of the characters asks the protagonist 'how many fingers'

[@Archedgar]

"There's more to life than duty to the state." "A federation viewpoint if ever I heard one." Excellent burn by Garak.

[@Diego-zz1df]

The irony is that in DS9 service to the federation is one of the most recurring themes. Hell, Sisko went on a personal crusade against the Maquis in the name of that.

[@bostonrailfan2427]

@@Diego-zz1df it’s more about personal choice vs. obligation…they in the federation choose to serve, they aren’t obligated to serve

[@thomascromwell6840]

@@Diego-zz1df On the contrary, the federation government is often found to be guilty of one conspiracy or another as are its members. While sacrifice is valued, it is never expected or demanded by the state and StarFleet officers often jeopardize their lives to save non-federation people. Furthermore, in all stories the ideals of Liberty, Justice, Equality and Compassion are highlighted more than anything else.

[@VoodooV1]

@@bostonrailfan2427 yeah, and I get that that the show is obviously shown through the lens of "the federation is awesome" but the show really likes to imply that the best thing a a sentient being can do is sign up for starfleet service and despite all the "badmirals" the federation is a paragon of virtue.

[@Veridiano02]

@@VoodooV1 "The lens of the federation?" Mate, why in hell are you talking like this was some federation propaganda? In case you don't know, Trek's universe isn't real, it's fiction, created entirely by humans, mostly US humans. And the federation was created to be an Utopia, and DS9 is "what happens when that Utopia is against the ropes". So yeah, they are the frakin paragons of virtue. As with it did with every aspect of the universe, DS9 give the federation dimension and depth, and some dark spots here and there, but it's still Star Trek, and in Star Trek the federation and Starfleet are always the good guys. If you want to see "human corruption and horrible dark tiranny" you should go to Warhammer 40k. Star Trek clearly isn't for you.

[@Bek359]

I really like these scenes, because its such a better way of giving cultural exposition than having Picard and co. beam down to the planet and somebody meets them and straight-up tells them all the quirks of Civilization KQR-3. Having Cardassian philosophy explained to the viewer via two friends arguing over their taste in books lends itself to much more natural, immersive dialogue and character development than any infodump.

[@NickSheridanVids]

Couldn't agree more :) Even Voyager managed to handle some sort of middle ground, with Neelix and 7 of 9 talking about Delta Quadrant societies based on their experience with them, not on a vital stats infodump. But yes, DS9 is still leagues ahead in subtleties.

[@emperornortoni2871]

And such a brilliant contrast to the idea that Shakespeare must be read "in the original Klingon"; i.e., that humans and Klingons share some fundamental characteristics that make Shakespeare work so perfectly for both of them. I think it works with the Klingons, for what that's worth. I just like the idea that the Romulans, Cardassians, Vulcans, et al. would all have fiction that, even in translation, would be slightly unintelligible to others.

[@user-yv4mm6bx3c]

I'm going to remember this.

[@AximandTheCursed]

Absolutely agree, far too many movies and shows rely too heavily on the old "exposition for dummies" trope in ways that diminish themselves for the viewers, rather than allow the audience to piece it together in more thought-provoking ways.

[@pwnmeisterage]

More than a contrast of cultures, also a comparison of characters. These dialogues showcase different interests, perceptions, and preferences of different people ... apparently open-minded people ... so it adds some depth to them, makes them more than stuffed uniforms wearing their species hats. Plus it invokes some curiousity about Cardassian literature, lol (although too bad this would all be written by CBS/Paramount producers or by obsessively fanatical fandom).

[@SirZapdos]

"Meditations on a Crimson Shadow" is actually a pretty cool title.

[@luminozero]

So much edge.

[@Raguleader]

Great name for a music album.

[@TheZetaKai]

The Neverending Sacrifice is also an excellent title, a succinct insight into Cardassian cultural fixation on the state over the individual.

[@Tuskin38]

There’s a trek novel called Crimson Shadow. In fact there’s a novel named after each of these stories

[@ZachValkyrie]

I love his face when he says "Who do you think?" Garak is such a troll.

[@ryanalving3785]

ZachValkyrie What was funnier that I saw someone point out, is that quite shortly after that the Cardassians and Klingons went to war for real

[@RurouniKalain]

That face indeed.

[@jamesha175]

@@ryanalving3785 i know, right? for real!

[@mar-k7104]

A stupid question really, Bashir walked into it

[@finaladvance5085]

Don’t tell me. I don’t want you to spoil the ending for me

[@Canukles]

You cut out the best part "Who wins?" "Who do you think?" "Nevermind, I don't want you to spoil it for me."

[@davidknowles2491]

Plot twist - It was the Borg.

[@Yaapo]

​@@davidknowles2491After all, resistance is futile.

[@DIEGhostfish]

Well, we got to see that play out.

[@CountArtha]

. . . . So basically, Cardassian literature is published by the Ministry of Truth.

[@blastermasterguy]

Ayup. Pre-Dominion War Cardassia was pretty much an Orwellian state if ever there was one.

[@drstrangejove637]

They're space Nazis. Genocide, Death Camps, Brutal Occupation, Fascist Nationalism, Their secret police has nearly unlimited power and authority, etc etc.

[@LordDarthHarry]

@@drstrangejove637 The Cardassians thought they were Space Nazi Germany when in reality they ended up being Space Facist Italy.

[@rudigerjoost8317]

probably not, Ministry of truth is Socialism/communism as is 1984 while Cardassians are clearly fascist. So they are more in the lines of "To my legionairies" or "Men among the ruins"

[@voidkat4202]

Is this a Helldivers reference?

[@FirstLast-cg2nk]

Cardassian crime stories do sound interesting, in that it becomes a question of who is guilty of what. Is this person the murderer, or just a petty thief? Did he kill this person, or was he across town murdering someone else? Compared to human crime stories, it does make for an interesting twist: How do you find the right murderer in a room full of murderers?

[@fucktardickis]

Basically Cardassians love to play Return of the Obra Dinn

[@Badartist888]

When you read Agatha Christie a lot of characters have committed other crimes and its a fair staple in those types of who dunnits.

[@nmotschidontwannagivemyrea8932]

From a propaganda sense, the stories are that anyone accused by law enforcement is ALWAYS guilty of SOMETHING, no matter what.

[@cosmictreason2242]

Op you should watch Columbo

[@FirstLast-cg2nk]

@@nmotschidontwannagivemyrea8932 Very true, but at the same time, Cardassians have public trials that are viewable by the entire populace, so guilt has to be pretty clear and obvious to make sure that the accused is guilty, since convicting a obviously innocent man hurts the state's reputation more than simply finding him innocent would. It is kind of a double-edged sword that way.

[@d-man3589]

The best part about Garak is how his actor really sells his enthusiasm. Not only that but the thought of the Cardassian culture where duty to the state told in a narrative of repetition is seen as poetic is really fascinating. The writing in DS9 was so good and it's in Garaks scenes where you see just how good Star Trek can be. They make a very likable character that believes in his home's totalitarian regime and sees it as a good thing. He really sees the bad and admits it's bad but still believes in it in a believable way. Garak is not a good guy but he seems like a genuinely interesting person to sit down and talk with.

[@Veridiano02]

Garak is a patriot, a good patriot or, rather, someone who loves is home enough to know how rotten really is. He doesn't believe cardassia's goverment is a good thing, on the contraty. He fights against it everyway he can. However he loves his culture, his people and his home and has the hope that they can grow to be much better than they are.

[@gideonmele1556]

It was only two generations prior where Cardassians were so overpopulated and resource starved that children in the capital were thrown to the streets to find scraps to eat from the trash and crime was rampant. It was after the military takeover and reorganization that then led to a colonization spree and later conquest of neighboring civilizations that pulled them out of a resource death spiral. There were Cardiassians alive who remembered the dark days of the scarcity and death so it makes sense that many bought into the narratives even knowing it was propaganda. Garak was a child of one of the ones who helped build that ‘triumphant Cardassia’ and didn’t want to return to the horrors of the squalor, especially with the risk of Romulan, Klingon, and Federation encroachments threatening to make them subjects. Cardassians were always heavily familial and artistic (it just changed the last century), the aggressive adherence to the state as opposed to strictly clan was new. It became the new and greater family within a galactic community, not just a planetary or system-level one. The dark irony is that they ended up enslaved and nearly destroyed trying to avoid being enslaved and nearly destroyed. That Cardassians were once like Bajorans in terms of artistry, devout religiosity, and defensive pacifism pre-Scarcity only adds to the tragedy and warning.

[@DeFactoLeader]

Garak is great. The Cardassians have to be one of the most interestingly written races that ST has ever dealt with.

[@austinboylan5476]

DeFactoLeader And that’s saying something because there no shortage of interestingly written races.

[@serpentsepia6638]

The Klingons - space vikings The Cardassians - space nazi's I'll stick with the Klingons....

[@austinboylan5476]

Serpent Sepia Romulans - space Romans/Soviets.

[@geewunder1171]

Klingons and Cardassians both had great development. I do wish we'd seen more exploration of the Romulans to round out the trifecta. Heck, we got more on the Dominion than the Romulans. But maybe that's the point ... Romulans were always the isolationist, paranoid, secretive ones.

[@thomastakesatollforthedark2231]

Serpent Sepia the Cardassians aren’t space nazis! Their the Japanese during WW2. A people who through shortage of resources and a form of eugenic racism turn to fascism in a form of reckless expansion, rape, and internment camps

[@FrankBlissett]

Garak would like Columbo, I think. ... We know the guilty party at the start, and the fun is watching the detective figure it out through deceit and doggedness.

[@oldtwinsna8347]

Mrs. Columbo played by Kate Mulgrew ?

[@DinsRune]

I'm sure a Cardassian audience would enjoy the structure, but would find it strange Columbo has to find proof _before_ arresting them. They also might find his humility a little insulting for an officer of the state, though Garak would love it.

[@FrankBlissett]

@@oldtwinsna8347 Hey - I forgot about that. Actually saw one of the episodes on old-style network TV ~35 years ago.

[@LordZontar]

"The challenge of an Enigma Tale is determining who exactly is guilty of what." I think that's my single favourite line of the Garak/Bashir exchanges.

[@Asher_Tye]

I can see Garak's point on "Neverending Sacrifice." From a Cardassian viewpoint, that does sound like a good read.

[@cosmictreason2242]

It ironically sounds like the Old Testament. Not in the statism but in the repetition. The story goes that the Jews were blessed, then they grew complacent, then they rebelled, then they were punished by being dominated by their enemies, until they cried out to God for help, so he would save them. Rinse and repeat for 1400 years

[@165hy9]

@@cosmictreason2242 as a Jewish person Yeah you’re not wrong

[@CaptainBardiel]

Roots?

[@startreker20]

There is an actual Star Trek novel called "the never ending sacrifice" it is an excellent read I highly recommend it. It is about a cardassian who was raised by a bajoran, however soon after the novel begins the boys actual father arrives on DS9 a takes the boy back to cardassia. From there it chronicles the boys life as he grows up during the dominion war.

[@ArcaneAzmadi]

I'm assuming it was an expansion on the season 2 episode 'Cardassians'.

[@denicever9307]

i watched this video and in the middle i began searching to look if there is a real book of it and yes, there is and now i wanna buy it and read it because elim garak likes that book a lot and he's my favorite ds9 character with julian bashir

[@TheTurnipKing]

@@denicever9307 One can never appreciate Cardassian literature unless it's in the original Cardassian.

[@attentionbajoranworkers4408]

I just started reading it and am incredibly disappointed to find it isn’t the actual in-lore novel that Garak is referring to, but instead just has the same title

[@FekLeyrTarg]

@@ArcaneAzmadi Yes, the novel is about what happened to Rugal after the events of "Cardassians". (I know it's 6 years later but whatever.)

[@CultOfJim]

The enigma tales sound interesting, and much like real life. Everyone is guilty, the question is of what.

[@nancyomalley6441]

Sounds like the movie "Clue"

[@lordofthecuttingmoon]

I would read the everliving hell out of a book like that. Seriously. It's like the typical mystery genre but taken up to a proverbial eleven.

[@AximandTheCursed]

It does sound good, doesn't it? Reminds me of an admittedly cynical but fair quote from a Warhammer 40k game: "No-one is innocent, there are merely varying degrees of guilt."

[@Daniel-rd6st]

Also: "Innocence proves nothing!" I really need to brush away the dust from my Adeptus Arbites guys charactersheet :-)

[@jamesbrice3267]

Commander Vimes agrees.

[@HubiKoshi]

It's downright adorable how Garak nerds out about Cardassian literature.

[@KyleRayner12]

The repetitive epic form kind of reminds me of "One Hundred Years of Solitude." There's nothing wrong with variations on a theme done well, but "done well" can mean anything with interspecial differences.

[@gabrielcaprav]

''One Hundred Years of Solitude'' was the first book that came to mind when I rewatched this scene! A great masterpiece.

[@AugustDrake]

I literally thought this was what was being talked about.

[@KyleRayner12]

​@@gabrielcaprav The way it's described also sounds a bit like "Remembrance of Things Past," even though that doesn't cover multiple generations. Maybe Bashir's tastes are just a little pedestrian. (Arguably, this could demonstrate how dangerous it is to extrapolate cultural generalizations from one person's representative sample. Given DS9's attempts to flesh out some planets of hats from earlier series, it might even be intentionally portraying us through Garak's eyes as a planet of Bashirs.)

[@willieoelkers5568]

Heck, forget species. Plenty of art and concepts have enough trouble just with plain old cultural barriers.

[@LonesomeTraveller]

I literally read it for hours, mesmerized by the magical realism of the novel. Gabriel Garcia deserved every bit of his Nobel. :-)

[@Neverhoodian]

J.J. Abrams must be an enthusiast of Cardassian literature if his Star Trek and Star Wars adaptations are anything to go by.

[@liquidmark5081]

Neverhoodian oh yeah. Two of his Star Trek movies are basically retellings of the wrath of Kahn and his Star Wars films are straight rips of the original trilogy with things shuffled around a bit. Oh, and louder.

[@Jokie155]

First Contact is a retelling of Wrath of Khan (The Borg Queen), as is Nemesis (Shinzon). And hell, Generations tried to be slightly less obvious with it's rip except it just failed as a movie as a result. And oh yeah, go point to me in A New Hope the father figure experiencing regret over losing his son to the dark side, the stormtrooper who turned against his brainwashing to help the Rebels, the orphan child who grew up with no family whatsoever. It's all a lot of whinging and whining because you dickheads can't get over how much you have to hate anything new that you'll go around and say how much you hate things on the most minuscule places of remote relevance. That's totally sane and rational behaviour.

[@Raguleader]

Really, most Star Trek shows are examples of character living selfless lives in service to the state, only for *The Next Generation* to come along and do the same. What's funny is after that bit, they'd proceed to make Voyager, which was yet another round of a ship of space explorers exploring the unknown and being harassed by gadfly omnipotent beings.

[@odgreen9113]

I wouldn't exactly compare the Borg queen and Kahn. Motivations were completely different.

[@joejonas6816]

@@odgreen9113 so were the plots but I just think that guy is determined to be upset that people don’t like the thing that he likes

[@tonyk501]

Spectacular dialogue exchange between two great actors. Deep Space 9 encompassed many unique elements of a sci-fi political docudrama.

[@terran5364]

I love the Cardassians. They're interesting, as well as their culture.

[@WobblesandBean]

Of all the Star Trek races, the Cardassians are the ones I most wish were real.

[@cosmictreason2242]

@@WobblesandBean give us your tier list ranking

[@paulhunter6742]

Besides the point of bring intergalactic bullies trying dominant other people. But, the High Command of Cardassian made grave mistake in joining forces with Dominion.

[@paulhunter6742]

@@WobblesandBean You're kidding right? Closest equivalent we have today are Russians invading Ukraine. You admire race probably 100 times worse?

[@ethanrichmond3992]

That last bit is some really good foreshadowing in retrospect.

[@pinoypizza]

I can't help but think that the Repetitive Epic is in a way our own modern sagas in books, tv shows, and movies. And yet there are tons of people who absolutely adore those. Bashir's viewpoint certainly does hold merit, but the thing to note is that at their basest form, stories will always be the same in one form or another, and the thing to look out for are those small things that add their own spin to the story.

[@Raguleader]

+nepomusik Honestly, Star Trek itself has turned into a sort of Repetitive Epic. For example, each show has a crew of bold explorers traveling across the galaxy and seeking out new life and new civilizations, at great danger to themselves, "...and then the Next Generation does it all over again..." You take the same high concept, switch out or switch around a few character archetypes and roles, and send them off into the unknown to see how the calculus changes. For example, Worf combines McCoy's emotional appeals with Spock's outsider status as an alien with human heritage (Spock's biological mother, Worf's adoptive parents), Riker takes Kirk's bold charm and makes him the supporting second in command, Picard takes Spock's restraint and intellectualism and puts him in the big chair, and so on. DS9 does more of this, and instead parks the crew at an interstellar crossroads to deal with dangers as they come to them, Voyager takes the original concept and removes all of their existing support structure. And then of course the Abrams!Trek films reboot the whole thing, uses time travel to jack with everyone's origin stories, and sends them off to see how the characters work with the different foundations (Kirk without the upbringing his father would have given him, making him a hotheaded loner, Spock dealing with close personal loss early in his life, and the new circumstances letting us see him work with Kirk minus the long-established trust they had in the original series, and so on). Another cycle in (what I think is) a great Repetitive Epic.

[@mardus_ee]

Although DS9 does more of this repetitive epic thing, it does not suffer from it. _Voyager_, much of "Stargate: SG-1", and all of "Stargate: Atlantis", though...

[@RAFMnBgaming]

+Raguleader Not necessarily, not everything lines up. TOS is very much "the final frontier" exploring stuff and protecting the little frontier worlds from ruin and invasion. TNG takes place inside a more developed region of space, though they do the occasional exploration or science mission into the unknown a lot of what they do operates on going places man has been before to smooth over problems and occasionally perform diplomacy, usually getting interrupted along the way by space people who want a second of their time. I've heard the D described as the "firetruck enterprise" and i kind of agree with that in the sense that it's a flashy vehicle that goes around solving problems. DS9's kind of has the frontier vibe of TOS and some of the exploring early on but instead of being the wagon trail to the stars it's the frontier town the wagon trail established, surrounded by angry locals who want them off their land, in that respect it's like TNG took the planet of the week format from TOS while DS9 took the frontier feel. Voyager... well Voyager is a bit of a mess, if i had to describe it in one word? 90s. Enterprise, from the few episodes i've seen recaptures the dangerous frontier and exploring said frontier aspect quite well, and i got the impression from it that the crew and earth were all quite limited in ability compared to the later shows. It's a party of heroes venturing through unknown territories compared to the wagon trail, firetruck and frontier town of earlier (later?) shows. then again i've only seen a few episodes of it so it could be as messed up as voyager for all i know. The movies, both Prime and Kelvin, are very spectacle/character things and each have their own themes. oh and the animated series is kind of more TOS i guess, but a little bit scooby doo. Basically i see trek as an Iterative Epic rather than a Repetitive one.

[@battleax86]

Can you expand on what you mean by Voyager was "90s"? I loved the show when I was a kid and thought it was a little corny when I re-watched it as an adult, but nothing really jumped out as being specific to the 90s. I think the rest of your analysis is spot-on.

[@oielvert]

The description of The Never Ending Sacrifice reminded me of A Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel García Márquez. Perhaps the writers were establishing a contrast between Human and Cardassian culture by referencing the repetitive epic in that way.

[@smnoy23]

I think the Cardassians would like Columbo. “Yes! YES!! Poke at his guilty conscience!!!”

[@blastermasterguy]

I wonder if Julian Bashir ever gave Elim Garak George Orwell's novel "1984" to read?

[@xxlCortez]

I'm pretty sure he'd find it intriguing.

[@augustday9483]

I'm pretty sure most Cardassians would read 1984 and think it had a happy ending, lol.

[@HacksignKT]

@@augustday9483 lol

[@rogerscottcathey]

Remember, on Cardasia you are guilty before you're charged. They believe in swift justice.

[@zxb995511]

This sounds very much like the 99.9% conviction rate of the Japanese justice system, its a "justice system" only in name.

[@Diego-zz1df]

Judge: *"GUILTY!!!"* Accused: "Of what?!" Judge: "That's why we're here, to find out."

[@thorshammer7883]

Sounds like a tenent the Inquisition factions in Warhammer 40k would follow per usual. Even to more exacerbating lengths then even the Obsidian Order, Dominion, and even Section 31 would cross most of the time. As is normally propagated by them as doctrine and edict. Because in the Warhammer 40k setting their mono goes. "Innocence Proves Nothing." As well as. "There is no such thing as innocence only degrees of guilt." Some sub factions are even worse then others in some areas within the institution.

[@PedroFelix456]

Actually the idea of a book taking place over several different characters going trough pratical identical scenarios could be very interesting if written by a genius writer. Exploring the inputs and outputs of situations as the characters go trough them and each of them, being different people, do, if not slightly, different choices and actions. And therefore explore how those small actions can alter the overall result

[@cosmictreason2242]

Bruh. Read the Old Testament

[@AnonEMus-cp2mn]

Read or listen to _1000 Nights and a Night,_ better known as _Arabian Nights._ I'm barely through half an audiobook and can barely keep track of how many stories within stories within stories it goes, nor how many times people have fortune and misfortune and other fantastical events occur to them in similar ways. However, more often than not the choices made and results are the same; and few stories have any morals to them so its more about the bizarre journey than it is the result.

[@JDarach]

I love the idea of an enigma tale, actually. It's still a mystery, just a different kind of one, and that would be quite an interesting challenge - it's different than a traditional mystery story, but still

[@LosoaII]

The Never-ending Sacrifice is pure Cardassian propaganda, not to say it's bad for a Cardassian who has grown up to admire such a life, but it certainly would lose its meaning to people outside of Cardassia. The Enigma Tales sounds cynically lovely. Possibly the strongest connection of literature between Cardassia and the Federation. Its not a matter of being right, but a more technical understanding of the crime in a crime novel to the point that you can thoroughly understand each character and know what they're guilty of. Meditations On a Crimson Shadow is just foreshadowing. Really, really good foreshadowing

[@pwnmeisterage]

1:18 ... Bashir spends a few seconds carefully scrutinizing the holoprogram cylinder gizmo. As if he could visually read any data off it. Or as if he wants to be certain that Garak hasn't somehow handed him a dangerous bomb/poison.

[@austinboylan5476]

P Definitely the latter. You can never be too careful when it comes to dealing with Garak.

[@annehaight9963]

He's wondering if Garak is going to ask him to eat it later.

[@odgreen9113]

Option #2

[@cassyterpstra3991]

@@annehaight9963 I was wondering if anyone else was thinking that, or just me😆

[@thomasjoychild4962]

Or see if it's a faaake...

[@badandymk3]

Cardassians would love the movie "Clue"

[@Matau228]

I think that a Cardassian Enigma Tale could be fantastic, a la Columbo but with a wider list of suspects (or, well, perpetrators), or something like the reveal at the end of Murder on the Orient Express.

[@SerbAtheist]

Fun fact: ''Murder on the Orient Express'' was actually written by a Cardassian.

[@PaulvonOberstein]

So was Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

[@fearreavers]

We deserve more of these two. Someone who knows what they are doing should start a petition to get them onto Picard

[@vantarinitel]

This hyperclip has been 99% of what got me reading actual books again... and wishing they were Cardassian... and then feeling crazy.

[@randypanthegoatboy7114]

The novel ends when the Cardassian Millennials say "Fuck this shit, we're moving to Bajor."

[@bostonrailfan2427]

“finding exactly who is guilty of what” makes sense, it’s a deductive reasoning exercise more than anything

[@benmaharaj6854]

Those enigma tales actually sound like fun

[@chrisarseneault5617]

Plain, simple Garak.

[@paulhunter6742]

I love Garak's wardrobe! Being a tailor I guess easy get materials needed. And it great way to advertise his Shop on Promenade...

[@NeilSonOfNorbert]

to really complete it you should have Garak's opinion on Human Literature(eg Shakespeare), a fascinating alien perspective

[@Hard_Boiled_Entertainment]

The conservation about Cardassian Enigma Tales makes me really think Garak would LOVE Murder On The Orient Express and The Big Sleep.

[@TeddGCM]

I understand that the original story had Bashir and Garak as lovers.

[@BlueSatoshi]

1:19 "What is it?" "Subtle foreshadowing."

[@VVeremoose]

"In a time when Cardassia and the Klingon Empire are at war" Shame they didn't Easter egg that book in season 5.

[@SavageGreywolf]

Judging by their description of Cardassian enigma tales, Garak would probably enjoy quite a few Agatha Christie novels.

[@MrChisleblast]

0:30 sounds familiar, Garak should have responded with, "It's like poetry kind of, it rhymes."

[@emperornortoni2871]

You know how sometimes you recommend an album or a book to a friend and they immediately forget about it? Not Bashir. That's true bromance.

[@planguy9575]

Yeah, the fact that Bashir actually sat down to read a friends recommendation is a sign that he is a good friend.

[@AngelaRyanXX]

Cardies would appreciate Columbo.

[@S.Johannesson]

"A federation viewpoint if ever I heard one." Gets me everytime.

[@gregorymatthews1881]

I'm under the impression Garak might like Agatha Christie's The Orient Express.

[@tarnishedknight9909]

That facial expression with the line "Who do you think"

[@CoolDude-ts2hc]

Holy shit, Columbo would have been a Cardassian Classic

[@jordanloux3883]

In all honesty I think I would like to read an enigma book. It sounds fun in a dark way.

[@Technobabylon]

Cardassian enigma tales are essentially Columbo, by the sound of it

[@sarmajere2866]

I feel like Garak would enjoy Tarrt's "The Secret History". It's definitely an explanation of a murder, what led to it and why.

[@orgonkothewildlyuntamed6301]

I wonder if Clint ever got a chance to appear in an episode & met Garak & would he say "what are you looking at punk?"

[@Tuskin38]

Each of these stories got a trek novel named after them

[@nealmarasinghe7755]

Sounds like the Cardassians would have loved that one arc in Haruhi Suzumiya where they aired literally the same episode several times in a row with only tiny variations.

[@swayzietimpson2994]

Me arguing with my friends about romance novels

[@robertsilva8097]

I served aboard Deep Space Nine and I also served aboard the USS Yorktown uses Excelsior Enterprise and Enterprise A also Commander Riker at the time had me part of his crew aboard the USS Hathaway war games against enterprise-D

[@nutwatch1854]

Enigma tales sound very interesting, actually.

[@GrandSupremeDaddyo]

I remember thinking the Cardassian justice system seemed far-fetched at first but these little scenes really fleshed it out.

[@zxb995511]

Look up the Japanese justice system with its 99.9% conviction rate.

[@EricMcConnaughey]

Cardassian lit, reminds me of a description I once read about Russian lit; nothing happens for four hundred pages, and then someone's aunt dies.

[@ethanomcbride]

Also... Is Murder on The Orient Express a Cardasian enigma tale?

[@JnEricsonx]

Only if you know the twist. Somehow, I went through my whole life not knowing the twist until I saw the movie, and was like "HOLY SHIT".

[@rockfan243]

You know even as a human I could probably enjoy the literature Garak recommends. Since philosophical discussion is a staple of cardasian meal times I believe he is actually enjoying hearing an alien point of view on a cardasian classic. I now want his opinions on Shakespeare, Sherlock Holmes, Fahrenheit 451, Dracula, just ALL the big classes of human literature.

[@Dhips.]

In the scene where they both talk about The Never Ending Sacrifice, Gerek read Julius Caesar and disliked it, saying Caesar was foolish thinking a friend wouldn't backstab him. I wonder if he'd like The Scarlet Letter, 1984 or Kafka's works, but for the wrong reasons.

[@rockfan243]

@@Dhips. I could totally see him enjoying Animal farm and 1984. 🤣 I wonder what he would think of Lord of the Flies as well? 🤔

[@thewilltheway]

I see the never ending sacrifice took a page out of “100 years of solitude”.

[@liamjacques5335]

Like the idea of the Neverending Sacrifice, every generation being selfless and dutiful, even as the government changes and society may grow and become different, the family is still loyal to the state, no matter what new challenges may come for their family, that sounds interesting of how a dutiful family adapts to a changing world, all the while staying loyal to the essence to the state and not those who would corrupt it

[@CaptainBardiel]

Star Trek.

[@oldtwinsna8347]

I can see the appeal of this Neverending Sacrifice novel. Citizens giving their duty to the state but not just one generation, rather continuing generations doing the same thing and having that story written in a repetitive style would be quite an art form.

[@nathanielhellerstein5871]

The repetitive epic did not survive the Dominion bombardment. Endless repetition did not seem lifelike to the survivors, who had to change. At most they'd believe 7 generations of Cardassians _trying_ to repeat.

[@tomaspabon2484]

The story structure of the book as described by bashir is eerily similar to One Hundred Years of Solitude.

[@PedroFelix456]

I have a feelingthat the sales of "Meditation under a Crimson Shadow"'s sales must have really plumbted during season 4.

[@TammoKorsai]

It sounds like Cardassians would enjoy Columbo a lot since you already know who the guilty party is.

[@alexyoon-sungcucina7895]

Tiger King is a Cardassian enigma tale. Everyone is guilty, but who is guilty of what?

[@ethanomcbride]

I would kill for a copy of “The Never Ending Sacrifice”

[@ericmcconnaughey2782]

Almost sounds like this description of Russian literature I once heard: "nothing happens for 700 pages, and then someone's aunt dies."

[@Tarnov]

My face when Repetitive Epic is pretty much a description of the most important latin american novel

[@robertpatter5509]

Would have been interesting if Garak said " Ah my dear doctor you are missing the point. We are all guilty of something. It's a matter of what we are guilty of and how. Varying degrees of guilt as we say. Think of it as a game of Cat and Mouse. Even I , a simple tailor am guilty of something. As are you. As is everybody. It's only the Federation that thinks one can be totally innocent of everything. So I ask you the question dear doctor. What are you guilty of?"

[@TK2692]

As much as I don't like how far they tried to make Starfleet morally gray in DS9 (I liked that they tried to test how "pure" Starfleet's dedication to its ideas was, I just felt like they went a little too far with Section 31, for example), the writing and the characters were top notch. Another great scene was when Quark and Garak talk about root beer. You learn so much about the characters and what's going on with a discussion that is about root beer on the surface. I feel like that was the kind of thing that DS9 truly excelled at.

[@NessOnett8]

I kinda wanna read the never ending sacrifice now.

[@LOTIL62]

As a pole, I have to admit, this is a perfect summary of face culture that I grew up under lol.

[@DblOSmith]

I 'd like to hear more about how Garak think's Shakespeare's writing was bad. lol

[@Skythikon]

I would love to read The Never-Ending Sacrifice. In some schools of psychoanalysis, they'd say that all of our lives are repetitive epics, acting on drives and replaying our symptoms ad nauseam. The interesting question becomes: what is that obscure and unnameable power that drives Cardassians to their repetitive selfless service to the state? To understand that would be to understand Cardassians, and it seems like that's precisely what The Never-Ending Sacrifice is about. Miyazaki of Studio Ghibli said that he makes movies because he doesn't know how else to live; making movies is his symptom. The Never-Ending Sacrifice portrays how Cardassians selflessly serve the state because that is the inescapably fundamental orientation of their lives; service to the state is the fundamental symptom of being-Cardassian.

[@patchbunny]

I wonder if Garak would like 'Ten Little Indians' or 'Murder on the Orient Express'

[@cameronstone4495]

So what I'm getting from this is, Cardassians would love Columbo

[@cameronstone4495]

Don't get me wrong I love Columbo too, I don't get why Bashir's so against it.

[@mds_main]

I guess Garak would love "Murder on the Orient Express".

[@locarno24]

Or Columbo. You know whodunnit from the very first scene but *proving* it is often a challenge.

[@anonymone453]

That moment when you realize Hot Fuzz fits the genre of Cardassian Enigma Tale The main character suspects one man is guilty, but he has a fairly bulletproof alibi... until he realizes that he's had help from practically everyone. And the motives behind the murders are absolutely not what the main character thinks.

[@00Boogie]

I get the sense Garak would be a huge fan of the slice-of-life genre.

[@tred6292]

This Preluc fellow predicted the futures when he wrote about the Cardassians going to war with the Klingon Empire. I just hope the novel said more about the ending than “they received help from a militant power from the Gamma Quadrant.” Otherwise the story really would be redundant.

[@breacat]

I think Cardassians would be fans of Russian literature. Dostoyevsky or Tolstoy seem like a good introduction to human literature.

[@Trakker1985]

it is nice at the end, rather than trying to make Bashire like literature that Garak likes, Garak tried to find some Cardassian literature that Bashire might like instead, something more his speed. lol

[@andymac4883]

Seems to me like Cardassian enigma tales are somewhat like Columbo and the 'howcatchem' formula, though perhaps a little less up-front about showing the murder happen straight away. Then again, perhaps I'm misinterpreting, and the point is that, rather than a single guilty suspect in a lineup, it's more like matching each suspect to the crime they committed. Which I will admit, has a sort of novelty of its own.

[@wakipaki7381]

Is it me, or does Garak's skin color change from episode to episode? Sometimes tannish yellow, sometimes blueish grey

[@horseenthusiast1250]

It does, and so does the colour of other Cardassian characters' skin. Idk if it was intentional, but irl some lizards change colour a little bit at different temperatures, so I like to imagine that that's just how Cardassians react to temperature change too.

[@collinsdarkwa281]

I remember this part

[@answerman9933]

"Neverending Sacrifice." sounds similar to "One Hundred Years of Solitude"

[@toobin8r]

Garak would’ve loved Columbo, I think

[@Soloartistalive]

Look now when I first watched this scene, I thought garak truly believed in the story. But, as I went on with the series (and got to know garak better) I really wonder if he was mocking the whole idea and story. In a way trying to see if Dr Bashir would figure it out one day or confuse him about who garak was. Does anybody else see that?

[@LuxAeterna22878]

So is The Hateful Eight basically a Cardassian-style story?

[@ezrazonable4992]

Stark Trek: The Cardassians are coming.

[@Claudanne2]

At least enigma tales sound more interesting than the repetitive epic.

[@BjornCanute]

Cue montage of the Klingons kicking the shit out the Cardassians.