Whats stronger: Pushing or pulling with short arc mig?

[@JonDingle]

Well until recently I always pulled Mig until a client asked me to push because he said it gave deeper penetration. After seeing this, I am going to test my own welding techniques on different wires and settings. Another video to challenges one mind, ability and knowledge. Priceless learning material, thanks young man we can all learn from these videos.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I too have heard many people say pushing increases penetration. The welding books I have say pulling increases penetration, miller and Lincoln say pulling increases penetration, and I have not done one test that showed any increase in pushing vs pulling. I think it’s pretty clear cut that pull will increase penetration on non open root joints. What I find interesting is how many people still say pushing increases penetration, it must be 30% or more of the forums. I think people just look at the beads and make an assumption that pushing has more fusion because of how it looks. Pulling looks slightly cold, yet it clearly has more fusion. Definitely pays to test things lol.

[@Owen-w2e]

Push looks so nice,so easy,looks flat,congruent and is great making a cold puddle that your basically maintaining a puddle on top or lightly penatrating parent metals. Dragging requires more effort and still isn't the mocked tig look. Have you considered starting close to 1/8" from edge digging a puddle running over to original starting point coming close to washing edge almost off and probably back off distance a second then back in to maintain a extra large puddle and then drag it out possibly making the bead over half the thickness of thickest parent metal ,however the throat and legs will be deeper and in my opinion better and stronger. I'd like to see you try this on here,ATM I could do a flux core run as im out of co2 atm and try to video and break test if this is a interesting concept your obviously more set up and I'd love to see you test and film that method.

[@Offthechartsoffroad]

I was always told "if there is slag, you drag" I have been welding for almost 40 years and owned a welding/fabrication shop for 26 years and I am honestly impressed by these results! I subscribed based on this! Great video!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks for the kind words 😀. With welding there is always more to know and exceptions to the rule, that’s why it’s so interesting to me (the challenge). I would have not known the difference was fairly significant without doing a ton of testing. From a visual appearance a push bead looks like it would have more fusion, so it’s surprising it actually has less fusion. It definitely pays to test welds to see where things are at 😀

[@AWDJRforYouTube]

Very great observations on your videos Greg. I have always PULLED MIG on all welds on plate thicker than 1/4" PERIOD! I only PUSH MIG on thiner plate and sheet when there is risk or problem with burn-thru. PUSH also very much increases SPATTER.

[@brnmcc01]

Yeah I could see that in the slow-mo arc shots clearly. I think this gets worse as like the voltage increases, because that higher arc force going right into the deepest part of the puddle is like blowing away your puddle all over the place. When trying this out with my crappy hood, I noticed I was having a hard time seeing the puddle from all the crap blowing everywhere, and burnt a hole thru my test piece of 1/8" trying to get a puddle going. And there was buckshot everywhere. Lowering the settings and increasing travel speed a little and dragging made a world of difference and I could see the puddle and move it around in a T joint.

[@Kevin.L_]

It's always pull for me. Just watching where the wire enters the weld pool tells me what i need to know.

[@michaelmusson3593]

I want to thank you for this video you have nailed it. I don't know if you were teaching classes in this before but I have to say you can explain some where even the densest among us gets it. Excellent well thought out clear video

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks 😀. I don’t have much background in teaching, but I do have a background in making a ton of mistakes. I think about things I wish I knew when learning to weld, and make sure I incorporate them into videos. I also want people to have some info/data and not just my opinion, so they can make decisions on their own. 😀

[@sackvilleweldingservices]

I must confess, I have used push, pull and straight in. As such, I have just learned two lessons from this video. First, etch testing one own work is a good way to maintain a standard because you see your own work laid bare in front of you. Lesson two, pull. A video on "inductance" would be really great to help understand it. Not all welding machines have any adjustment or settings for inductance. In my workshop, I have a 3phase 400amp Hobart Beta 4000 Mig welder. It has three female sockets that the earth clamp can go into to set inductance depending upon the voltage settings. Amusingly, when I bought the machine (used). The guy selling it said they couldn't get it to weld properly and struggled with it. I bought it from a firm that clears out old equipment from either bankrupt companies or just buys older equipment. When I made the 200mile journey to collect my latest vintage welder, they explained again how they were going to replace their virtually knackered old ESAB (And indeed it was looking more like scrap than a welder) that they used to build transport frames and odd repairs on equipment. So, I sort of winged it and moved the earth Dinse plug into the lowest inductance setting because they said I could "try before I buy it", which was very fair. They gave me plate, hooked up a gas bottle and blow me down it was like welding molten metal as soft, sweet and smooth a soft butter on fresh bread. I loaded the beast of a machine up and headed back up North to sunny Yorkshire a happy man!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I have done a video on inductance and what it does, however I have not done a cut and etch or bend test. In theory high inductance should increase heat input on thick steel, which should result in more penetration. I have a feeling the functional difference will be far less than push vs pull. I will have to test this. Congrats on the score of a new welder btw 😀

[@sackvilleweldingservices]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks for the prompt reply young man. I will have a look back through your videos. Cheers, Jon.

[@mixpick138]

Thanks brother! Nothing better than fact based/tested analysis to lead the way. I've already cut and etched some of my welds based on many of your old videos, so --thanks! Yet another great vid. that applies to so much more than welding!!!!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Glad to hear that 😀 and no problem. The difference turned out to be more than I expected given the settings and how good both welds looked. On face value the pull looks colder and more suspect, yet it has better penetration/fusion performance. Definitely pays to check your own work to find out what’s going on lol.

[@apatterson8128]

Thank you for your time. I hope you realize how many newbie or hobbyists welders you have helped. Your tips and advice are invaluable.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I am glad they helped you 😀. I want to see people being able to build stuff and know what they are doing 😀

[@joesteffens613]

I was taught to pull with mig to “drive” the heat into the root of the weld. I have weld training, but I’m not super educated in welding and didn’t understand why some folks pushed their welds. I just figured they knew what they were doing. This answered some questions for me. Thanks.

[@brnmcc01]

You had an excellent teacher

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

When I first started posting mig welding videos I had a ton of comments that I needed to push, because I pulled most welds. I always thought that was strange because I read pulling had more penetration. I never tested it until a couple videos ago, and saw totally different results, which made me do this video. I find it interesting that there is a legitimate difference in push vs pull, but I swear it’s about 50/50 on the forms with guys split on which performs better. I think so much of the confusion comes from how the welds look. If you just laid down two welds, one push and one pull (same settings), visually you would think the pull was colder/would have less fusion. Yet on a cut and etch it clearly doesn’t.

[@joesteffens613]

I think you’re spot on, to many people are worried about “stacking dimes” instead of getting good penetration. penetration should always be more important than cosmetics. ( that’s what she said… BOOM! ) sorry, couldn’t resist. Good tests, keep them coming.

[@richarcruz7843]

Thank u Greg this should by far end th argument of Pull an push debate once an for all I appreciate all th time An patience u took to give all of us ur Wealth of Knowledge Thank u an God Bless always🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

[@normesmonde5332]

Thanks Greg I’m Definately showing this to my trainee apprentices

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem 😀. Obviously sometimes pushing is unavoidable, or even the flatter “pushed weld” profile is needed. The difference in penetration is enough to definitely factor in finding a way to pull on atleast the root pass. It’s all about trying to make the best decisions for the situation 😀

[@jasonmoore7322]

I was taught to pull on mig by a local welder that owns a LWS . Started reading on all the forums how you're supposed to push mig but I think I'm going back to pull after seeing this video. Thanks for all of the data and explanation!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

When I started the channel and first did some mig welding videos a lot of people commented on I should be pushing. I pulled mig because I did a lot of flux core wire and pulled with that. Almost a year later I actually tested it in this video and found out that pulling produces more penetration, enough to make me what to pull most things. I think the prevalence of the “pushing is better” comes from the visual look of the welds. Flatter welds via pushing look like the fusion would be better. Without actually testing it everyone would be clueless to what the inside of the weld looks like. When it comes down to it every situation requires different solutions, and being able to push and pull is worth it. The most important thing is to know there is a difference, and what that is. That way when you need more fusion you know what to do to achieve it. Being able to make educated decisions only makes your work better 😀

[@jasonmoore7322]

Any chance you would do a instructional video on when it's best to push or pull? Or a video explaining the best way to do out of position MIG welding would be awesome. I think most of us can get flat MIG welding down with no problems it's the out-of-position stuff that throws us off

[@kyferez1]

Thanks for this! Self taught and learning from data and proof is the best way!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem 😀. Don’t be afraid to do an occasional test on your own work to see where things are at, it will only help you improve 😀.

[@CALDues]

You really have great theories on the topics that you cover, I keep hoping it'll rub off on me! Thanks again for your dedication.👊

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem. It’s all about testing things to see where things are at 😀

[@mao5990]

I was told to pull for gasless and push for gas. It was hard getting used to pushing with gas because I couldn't really see where I was going, but I figured I had to learn it if I wanted to use gas. After seeing this and trying pulling, it helped my visibility so much more and the welds looked identical (from the outside anyway). I really appreciate the time and effort you put into these videos! Debunking the old myths haha.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Glad to hear you’re able to see better 😀. No doubt it helps to be able to push and pull, but if you can put down better welds pulling you’re not loosing much (and gaining root fusion).

[@AM-dn4lk]

An amazing video tutorial. Full of knowledge on pull vs push welding. Thank you. The only issue I have with pulling, is the gun blocks the path I should be travelling, so I do not see well in that direction, making it more difficult to follow a straight path.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

That can definitely be an issue, especially because of how short the stickout generally needs to be (3/8th of an inch). Depending on your skill level you will find it gets far easier to pull as your skill increases. Even though the vision is obscured if you watch the puddle that you can see and the sound, you will know if you’re consistent. Repositioning hands and your head helps too. Sometimes you simply can’t see well enough and if you know you’re going to put down a bad weld pulling, then pushing would be the way to go. I will be honest, I much prefer Gasless flux core wire or even dual shield (which runs a longer stickout that mig) because it’s much easier to see what’s going on.

[@philgoogle1535]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Hi Greg, I'm just starting to learn MIG welding as a hobby. The biggest difficulties I'm having is seeing the joint and maintaining even travel speed. I'm basically lost as I can't see where I'm going. I've set the auto hood to 10 and am considering dropping it to 9.5. I thought pushing would help with being able to see better. I'm only welding thin walled tube and plate 1.6-3.0mm. I'm about to cut up a whole heap of flat bar and go nuts running beads for practice so I can sort this out. Do you have any tips on how to hold the torch and where to position your head please?

[@robbieraychannel]

Well done my friend the results speak for themselves. I have always pulled even though everyone tried to get me to change to push. I watched your other video on stacked dimes. A pro welder once told me when pulling if you want that dime look you can move forward and pause over and over. He said never circle back over the puddle. Because of your test results now I know why, It's all about keeping the root area hot. Thanks for the great info. Rob.....

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I had the same thing happen too, many people always commented I should push not pull. I learned tig, stick first, then flux core wire. I always pulled with stick and flux core, and it felt natural to do the same for mig. People told me pushing made a stronger weld, yet clearly that’s not the case. Honestly I watched a video or two a long time ago on push vs pull, and I swear the differences weren’t significant. Yet in my own testing clearly it’s different enough that I know which one I will be doing when I need penetration. I really believe the whole push is better than pull stems from the fact the weld visually looks like it’s fused better because it’s flatter. Had I never done a cut and etch or break test I would believe pushing is better too. On a 3 pass weld I think I might consider pushing the two bead cap just to flatten the overall profile out. The root pass would pull no doubt.

[@paulkurilecz4209]

Great video. A couple of comments: My perspective is that short arc MIG is really no different than SMAW. The big difference is that with MIG you don't have to stop to change rods. Therefore, pulling, or as I prefer forehand, is the way to go. On your discussion of the throat distance, the excess throat that you mention really doesn't increase the strength of the weld. In fillet welds, the concept is the effective leg length. This is because the loads that are transmitted between the two members is considered to be done by shear through the area of the weld on the member. Thus, if you draw a line between the two weld toes any weld deposit above that line (away from the weld root) does not contribute to the strength of the welded connection. Conversely, when you have a concave fillet weld, the line that connects the two members must be below (towards the weld root) the cap of the fillet weld. The test that you are doing is not really representative of welded connection strength. The T test for qualifying welders is an easy test to conduct in field conditions. When the weld is broken open, you look for two things: 1) porosity in the weld and fusion at the root of the weld. When the production welds undergo visual inspection, the inspector is primarily looking for porosity, undercut, uniformity and if the minimum effective weld leg length is met. What is interesting is that when you go to MIG weld aluminum, you actually use a very slight push angle. This is because you are wanting to make sure that the weld area has adequate shielding gas coverage. Also keep in mind that aluminum MIG welding is done with spray arc rather than short circuit.

[@weldtight]

Nicely Done, thank you for the video and editing!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks 😀. The results were a bit more significant than I expected. I will be testing spray arc too with the push vs pull, and I bet it will hold true for that as well.

[@MrSeeuu]

Great video. I’ve been welding with a Lincoln tombstone welder I bought when I was 16. I’m now 65! LOL Anyhow, I was taught by old timers to always pull the weld and wrap the corners if you can. And always look for the heat penetration on the backside. That’s the tell for your settings and cable length out in the field. I like the short arc mig, less clean up for sure. But when I stick weld, I can see the heat signature on the backside of the weld and the slag rolls off on its own, I’m feeling pretty good about the strength.

[@VojislavCar-he3ii]

Excellent video! I tested it in past and the conclusion was the same: pulling ! Furthermore I am pulling with FCAW - S , with FCAW-G and with GMAW.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Glad to hear you tested it as well. Based on everything I have seen and other actual tests, there seems to be a measured loss of root fusion pushing. I suppose in some cases that could help (thin material) and for cover passes it could flatten the bead out nicely, but I rather take the slightly ropey bead with solid fusion over the flatter bead with less fusion.

[@randallsemrau6911]

Another iconic video. Thank you!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem 😀👍. That video even surprised me at how there was actually a pretty decent difference.

[@joeg7755]

Great explanation.Glad you posted that clarification at around 18:46 as I mostly do TIG and my welds are on the concave side. Looks like pull for MIG for me. And I am wanting to learn much more about MIG, Are you going to do a series on spray arc MIG? I'd be very interested in your results!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I have some gas for spray and just did some spray test welds last night actually. I will be doing some videos with spray pretty soon. It’s not actually hard to do, however having a welder capable of it is the hard part. Due to the high operating voltage many people’s welders won’t do it unfortunately. As far as the tig welds being concave, it’s tough at first with tig to push enough filler. The weld defects with tig are so much harder to see (due to small weld sizes) over mig and stick, so it can be difficult to realize the flaws. The main weakness with tig welds tend to be poor throat depth due to lack of filler, more or less the whole weld is undercut in a way. With a bit more filler added combined with a tight arc, you will be in business. 😀

[@joeg7755]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Hey Greg, appreciate the reply and look forward to the videos. In your opinion what is the minimum size of machine and features needed to do spray arc?

[@DerekPetersonLives]

Thanks for the shout out on using naval jelly! And I'm glad I've subscribed, everything is explained and proven so well!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks, and welcome 😀

[@michaelwhiting878]

When Pulling: would it help to slightly increase your Voltage to help “Wet-Out” the edges/toes of the weld, and create a less Roped-Up bead? I’m not concerned with appearance (I couldn’t give a Rats Ass about making pretty welds), I’m strictly talking about weld Strength. It makes sense in a head-to-head comparison, to be fair, you must keep all weld setting parameters the same, but I would like to know if increasing the voltage (within reason) improves weld strength. AKA producing the Strongest weld I can. Your videos inspired me to Test my welds by both Cut and Etching, and Face Bending on a rig Like yours I built from scraps. I’ve started to test my welds, and albeit not with any kind of ability to measure, I can easily tell (feel the difference), where the Pull is almost 50% stronger. Etching them has also produced the same results as you have demonstrated multiple times. Testing my welds has not only validated what you are teaching us, but it has given me direct Feedback on my performance as a welder, and not to mention, it adds a new extra dimension to my welding hobby, and is Fun to do too. I’m having a blast, and I hope others will take you up on your challenge to start testing their welds. I wish I started testing my welds long ago! Thanks Greg for your teachings and challenging me to test my work. You can watch hundreds of videos, but nothing beats testing your own work to learn what works and what doesn’t!

[@brnmcc01]

Yes, slightly higher voltage flattens out the weld, this is the same effect as running a slightly longer arc with stick, it flares out a bit more. The key is slight, only make very small adjustments and re-test. As far as making a stronger weld with higher voltage goes, there's ideal settings because too high of a voltage increases the risk of things like burn back, where the wire melts back to the contact tip. Too high of a voltage to wire speed ratio starts to sound bad too, like a high speed machine gun sound versus a nice frying bacon sound, and get more spatter too.

[@michaelwhiting878]

@@brnmcc01 Thank You very much for your reply. It makes perfect sense that it would require only a “slight” increase in voltage to produce a slightly less roped up bead using 0.030 solid wire, and wet in the edges for the purposes of weld strength. I am going to try this next time I get a chance. On a 1/4” plate fillet weld. I was thinking of trying 0.2 to 0.5 volts to start with hopefully avoiding any burn back issues. I would welcome any thoughts you, (this is an open invitation to anyone who cares to comment), may have on the subject.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So the higher voltage will flatten the weld out. I will test some voltage changes to see if it will flatten the weld out. I have a feeling with pulling beyond a certain point it will likely have issues with burn back like was mentioned. I do know that the weld fusion won’t directly go up with higher voltage, it takes both wire and voltage to produce enough heat to increase fusion. I will also be making a video on making the strongest welds shortly, I have been swamped with work far more than expected 😀

[@brnmcc01]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg If I understand it right, the main thing that controls the amps, is the wire feed speed? I'm having a hard time with my Lincoln machine running 0.035 wire and trying to figure out settings that will work with 1/16" or 16ga material. If I crank up the voltage to max, and set wire feed speed to the recommended settings on the chart inside the machine, or just slightly higher, it works fine on 1/8" lap and t-joints. I made a couple of t-joints out of some scrap pieces and a stick of angle iron, and even with a 16" pipe wrench I could not get it to break. However trying to weld 16ga to 1/8" I either blow holes thru it trying to get a puddle going, or leave spatter everywhere and welds break easy. Very frustrating, maybe the wire is too thick for that thin material? But I thought 0.035" flux core is about the same as 0.030 solid wire since the FCAW is hollow wire.

[@StayFreeAlways]

Wow! We are told in my class that either way works as well. Great info. Thanks!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Either way will work depending on the situation. If you’re welding thick material with the short arc process I would pull no doubt. If in doubt cut and etch things to see how things are looking 😀👍

[@StayFreeAlways]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg I asked my instructor about this today. He told me that by adjusting the welder settings that just as much penetration can be done either direction. He told me that the reason many welding shops used push is because it is faster and they can make more money more quickly. What are your thoughts and experience? Thanks.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

@@StayFreeAlways run beads push and pull on flat plate, cut and etch it. Pulling will have slightly more penetration. This phenomenon is exacerbated when you compare vertical up vs down. Vertical up welds have more penetration because it’s easier to hit the root with the wire. Vertical down on face value has poor penetration. On fillet welds where the molten puddle is “thick” in throat depth the differences also are more significant than just a flat plate. Changing settings doesn’t change how much weld metal you have to weld through when pushing, it’s different than pulling. In many cases the difference isn’t a concern or an issue, however it’s there.

[@StayFreeAlways]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg thanks for the reply. do you think pushing is faster than pulling

[@G5Hohn]

This is super useful to know that I can tame the MIG a little for thin stuff (18-22ga) my pushing while cranking up the heat and pulling for anything where more penetration is good instead of bad.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Great thought, and it would likely work. I can tell you on Exhaust pipe or thinner pushing works, and is what I do. I don’t know why but I don’t pull on thin, but I bet it would blow holes far faster lol.

[@VinceMasetti]

Great video, Thanks

[@garthland]

this was awesome! I run mostly .045 dualshield,not much .035 shortarc,but you changed my mind

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Short arc with decent settings and prepped plates can make strong welds. Definitely 100% solid for 1/4inch steel. What really helps is having a 200+ amp welder. A lot of guys use 140a mig welders and have sub par performance on 1/4. With a solid welder short arc is a great process. Dual shield is as well, the main issue with dual shield is most home hobby level welders won’t run it well due to voltage limitations and inability to run .045 wire. I tested the .035 dual shield wire and had fairly poor performance with it on thicker plate.

[@tallyman15]

Not a MIG welder here but another great video. Keep it up.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks 😀

[@billnolin9423]

Hi Greg I really enjoy your videos and all the testing you do. I all ways learn something. Thanks for the great work.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem. It’s all about learning to be able to make the best decisions and build some strong/cool stuff 😀

[@greatodinsraven]

I was always taught, “slag, you drag, otherwise pull”. When you push you should be “welding” through any more material than when you pull, but I was always told that the gas coverage is better when pushing.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So with aluminum you need to push to get acceptable results with wire welding. Flux cored wires straight in or pull. Hardwire can be done push/straight/pull, with differing results. Gas coverage wise it’s hard to say with push vs pull, both work and can make good looking beads. There are a lot of reasons why some companies will specify push or pull, and stick with only one. The primary one being that by specifying everything you can get consistent reliable performance provided the specs are followed. For people at home that are looking to make strong welds on 1/4in and above, pulling with mig should be considered for a root pass at a minimum in the short circuit process.

[@mkearn724]

Nice video Greg! I’m actually kind of surprised. I’ve always been told and taught to drag with slag, and push the pass with gas. It’s definitely easier to see everything when pulling. I may have to change up my technique and give it a shot. I have a lot of catching up to do with your channel. I’ve been too damn busy with home renovations and work lately. I chuckled when you spoke on never ending frustrations…… I’ve been dealing with that a lot lately at work with 5/64” fluxcore.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

The results were a bit unexpected to me as well. Glad to hear you’re staying busy, that’s a good thing 😀. I haven’t posted about it but I switched up jobs and will be doing a a bunch of heavy steel equipment repairs with spray, metal core, and spray arc. Definitely outside of what I normally do, but there is a first for everything lol.

[@mkearn724]

⁠@@makingmistakeswithgreg nice, hopefully you enjoy the new job. It sounds like enjoyable work that will provide the sense of satisfaction from seeing things up and running again. I don’t have much experience with spray arc, but I’d like to mess with it at some point. In the past I’ve enjoyed repair work bc it’s typically not the same thing day in and day out. The job I’m on now, I’m pretty much stuck running 5/64 flux on column splices, moment connections, and some 7018 1/8 on bent plate for the perimeter of concrete pours. It gets alittle boring doing the same things just at a different elevation.

[@FishFind3000]

10:10 funny enough my results matched these when I tested this a few days ago

[@tughillplateau2129]

How much more penetration do you get with 100% CO2 vs C25 ? A little welding gas shootout with push, pull and straight gun angles and welding characteristics of the different shielding gasses.

[@brnmcc01]

You get more penetration and save money with 100% CO2, but you get more spatter, and uglier looking weld. It's not a huge difference, but probably get about the same or nearly the same penetration as flux core FCAW-S wire.

[@jacobwrona]

I was thinking the same thing!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I have a tank of co2 and I will be testing that shortly. Brnmcc01 pretty much summed up what should happen. Like he said it should see an increase in penetration at the expense of spatter/bead appearance . Modern welders with inductance control can tune some of the spatter out but not all.

[@Gyppor]

Great video, I've been intrigued ever since I watched one of your previous videos where pulling seemed to be advantageous. This really confirms it, pull for me from now on! Have you considered getting a CO2 tank to do some C25 vs CO2 comparisons? I've switched to 100% CO2 recently and really, really like it. Low spatter, great penetration and my little 20 pound bottle is lasting and lasting. Thanks for the entertaining and enlightening comparison! Also... I highly recommend a band saw. I still wonder how I put up with sawzalls, grinders and even my cold cut chop saw before I got the band saw. It's incredibly quiet and smooth cutting thick steel, you will NOT regret it.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I have a tank of 100% co2 to do testing with, along with c10 for spray. I will be testing both soon. I also have a mini bandsaw (portaband) I picked up and I like it a lot so far. Once I can find a building to buy I will be buying a full size band saw. I am very limited on space so it’s hard to justify a full size saw. I use one at work all the time, I definitely enjoy them far more than dry cut saws.

[@johnmacmillan627]

Now, that is quite fascinating and is going to change the way I weld. Many thanks, Greg. I would like to buy you a coffee but I dont see a ‘ thanks” anywhere on your site

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

In the future I might setup a patreon account, but for now you can thank me by investing the time to practice Inorder to improve your skills 😀.

[@SouthernGround]

Excellent work sir 👏, I am very interested in your test bar and your standards you set for testing. Maybe a video teaching us how to do testing according to "Making Mistakes With Greg" test standards (MMWGWS) ie. Coupon sizes, tool's needed ect. . so when we follow your examples like in this video we know how close we are in our outcomes compared to yours. I want to thank you personally for your willingness to share your knowledge with the world, it's things like this that make the world a better place through teaching others valuable skills.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks for the kind words, I will definitely do a video on this. The main purpose of the torque gauge is to give a hard number to how much force it takes to break the weld. Originally I did it by hand/feel and I realized in a few minutes that I needed a more reliable way to tell how much force it took to break something. It also works for other people so they know how much stronger one weld is over another. Breaking welds towards the face to gauge strength can be done with a simple breaker bar. Knowing exactly what it breaks at is not a huge deal. You will be able to tell weak welds vs stronger, and the inside of the weld will tell you if you have fusion issues. I will definitely cover all of this stuff in a video 😀.

[@hsaneener9292]

Hold on time out! Metals have the push or pull in them ALREADY....is this an against like back to back or against as to oppose? Time stamp 0:42 me jumping the gun sorry 😮

[@drewlarson65]

Seems pushing has a better heat affected zone profile, might be better for thin stuff. Doubt you'd be short arcing in that setup though. also, get a metal bandsaw: cheaper in the long run.

[@franksocia5974]

Wrapping makes the weld wrapped corners and tack middle stronger I think

[@FishFind3000]

I tested with myself and in my very unscientific results pull made a larger weld and more heat in compared to push. My results ended up being that push weld broke at the weld joint to the plate. Pull broke the plate in 2 spots even after cutting the back of the weld in half. Sooooo…. Who knows 😂

[@akawireguy1197]

I've been pulling with flux core for many years and that's what I'm comfortable with now that I'm welding with gas.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I agree. The interesting thing is I learned flux core first for years before I touched mig. When I started KZbin videos I pulled mig all the time and had a ton of comments that I should be pushing. Yet pushing never felt right, but I never did a cut and etch to see what was going on. Based on what I found out in making this video I think I will stick to pulling on a single pass and on a 3 pass weld I would pull the root and either pull or push the two cap passes. If you’re running pull definitely stick with it 👍

[@repairfreak]

Hello Greg, hope you are doing well. Forgive me for being off topic, but this viewer is interested in getting a spool gun for my Hobart Handler 190 and some Argon. Can you do a video showing what a person can expect to get welding various thicknesses of aluminum with one? Thanks my friend up there in the great north. 😎👍

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So I don’t actually own a spool gun, however I will likely get into that in the future. I tig weld aluminum a lot and find it to be far easier/better than mig. With spool guns I find that every time you pull the trigger it welds different. Because you can’t clean the wire on the spool I find that contaminates (oil or general filth) finds it way from the spool into the weld. Aluminum is one of those things that once the molten pool goes sour the whole weld will be rough. The big things to make sure to focus on with a spool gun is use 100% argon, push the puddle (pulling produces poor aluminum welds), and clean the material spotless. Aluminum has a real bad time with poor fusion and welding thick to thin can be a major challenge. What I find helps is preheating the thick material to 300-400 and leaving the thinner material barely heated. For the same thickness aluminum it’s generally not bad. The main downside to mig aluminum is thin material can be real tough. Aluminum mig functions in “spray arc” mode of transfer and spray generally speaking will only weld 1/8th and thicker. It is possible to weld thinner but it takes a lot of skill with mig. Tig is really what’s best for thinner aluminum. Hope that helps 😀

[@repairfreak]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks for the helpful reply. Everything you said makes perfect sense “for I have some TIG on Aluminum experience.” I however don’t own a machine capable of TIG welding. I probably should have saved longer and got an all purpose machine now that inverter technology has brought machine prices down. Ya, was just wondering how the spool gun option for my Hobart Handler 190A GSMAW would do with Aluminum. Just was curious to see what would be the best to expect before even bothering to get the spool gun option. Probably will just save money and get a do-all machine, and one that goes hot enough for spray transfer with correct gas. Have a great day and keep up the nice videos helping us all out. ✌️😎👍

[@jduke367duke8]

I just recently got in to welding and am curious to learn more. I understand what push and pull is but what is a straight in weld that you were referring ti

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So straight in means the gun angle and wire is 90 degrees to the plate/joint. Basically the wire is not angled towards or away from the direction of travel.

[@jduke367duke8]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg that’s what I was kind of thinking but I just wanted to make sure. I appreciate the comment and the video was very informative! Keep them coming, I’m really enjoying the channel!

[@MrTheRabbitslayer]

Is penetration better than surface area of a weld pool?

[@ktmturbo5836]

When you use c25 gas you are mag welding. Not mig welding. The MIG and MAG welding methods differ from each other in that MIG (metal inert gas) welding uses an inert shielding gas, which does not participate in the welding process, while MAG (metal active gas) welding employs an active shielding gas that participates in the welding process.

[@765outdoors]

As a weld QA tech, those concave welds usually have very poor penetration while doing CPE.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

A guy I used to work with would run super high voltage for the wire feed and put down concave welds. He would argue that they were solid and had great fusion/penetration. Visually they looked like they were ran hot and weren’t that bad looking, other than the throat depth being poor. We did a cut and etch on a test weld he did and the root wasn’t even fused. I wouldn’t have expected it to be as bad as it was. He still didnt want to change anything lol. It pays to do testing to atleast have an idea of what’s going on.

[@765outdoors]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg I agree! Ours is because of high voltage also. Unfortunately we are not allowed to tell maintenance/engineering what to do when changing welding parameters.

[@garytompkins3761]

I'm no welder so just asking. To my eyes the etched straight on weld looked excellent and probably best of all?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Without a doubt there will be a lot of variations down the whole weld. Your eyes don’t lie, at that point it has a good profile. If you cut a weld open of your own and see that you have things setup good.

[@melgross]

I don’t think, from my experience, that it matters if you’re close to vertical, say, plus or minus 5 degrees. But when you start to get to 10 degrees, or more, then I’ve found a difference. The further off you get, the more it matters, until you get too far, maybe 45 degrees, or so. Then nothing works correctly.

[@brnmcc01]

Yeah you can see from his cut/etch of the 3/8" pieces that the straight in weld actually looked quite decent, and certainly a whole lot better than the push one. The bead appearance of the straight in one looked perfect too, not too flat or roped up.

[@brnmcc01]

Not nitpicking by any means, all of your video's are super good, but I think should be called short-circuit MiG, not short arc, because this is the transfer type. You can have short circuit transfer with MiG, globular transfer with stick and flux core FCAW, and spray transfer with MiG on spray settings. All have their own pros/cons, but all MiG welding is short arc, because the arc length is controlled mainly by the voltage, and wire diameter combination. EDIT: I see on some of ESAB's literature that they also call short circuit MiG short arc MiG, so I guess it's just personal preference what to call it. I like ESAB's stuff, so I'm not going to complain.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I definitely agree with you on terminology. A vast majority of what I talk about I use welder terms that are common to the average person. Much like calling arc welding/mma/smaw “stick welding”. It’s technically not correct, but stick is universally understood so communication still happens (aka the message is received and understood). Universally when “in the field”shop terms are used and not book terms, i am more a product of in field work, which is why you’re going to see a lot of non book terms thrown around.

[@PaulSteMarie]

One thing I'm noticing in the etched weeks is that the push is penetrating deeper into the vertical piece and the pull is deeper into the horizontal piece. Is that just happenstance, or is that also associated with push vs pull? I'm a bit surprised all the testing with these fillet welds is bending towards the weld putting it in compression, not away from it and creating tension. In any actual work, i would have thought that one-sided welds would be placed so that the load is pulling away from the weld and not toward it. (Assuming the application allows for a one sided weld.)

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Great observation and thoughts. The slight differences in the melt in might have to do with how pushing flattens the bead out. When I weld a fillet weld I tend to favor the upright plate because the bead sinks due to gravity. Well pushing and favoring the upright plate means more heat will slightly favor the top plate. When pulling the bead doesn’t seem to flatten out much which puts more of the mass of the weld metal on the base plate. To be more fair I could have welded both in the completely flat position, I just find it uncommon to weld a fillet weld like that. As far as how a weld gets loaded, it depends on what’s being welded. A engineered part with a fillet weld would either have an oversized fillet weld on a single side, a full penetration weld, or be welded on both sides if maximal strength is required. It’s very common for stuff people make or repair to only be welded on one side, and (due to lack of knowledge/skill)the part is not run with a open root/bevel or back gouged for full penetration. In a single sided fillet weld the difference root penetration makes could make or break a part. So you’re absolutely right, a single sided fillet weld should be oversized if what’s welded will have stress towards the face. Even in such situations poor root fusion will still make it easier for the weld to break because of the leverage advantage.

[@PaulSteMarie]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks! That's very enlightening. I kept looking at the bottom of the vertical piece, and it seemed like it was only getting a tiny bit of fusion at the weld root, leaving a crevice for rust, fatigue cracking, etc. I've always run fillets on both sides, which is often gross overkill, but I'm not formally trained.

[@ericroot8475]

I wonder if the results would be much different if you tested a lefty who had a similar experience level as you. I know in my experience, righties just tend to be more comfortable dragging, while lefties push. I think it has to do with how we write with a pencil. Your reasoning is sound, especially the slow motion footage of your puddle. I just wonder if your comfort level is affecting the strength tests.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

There is no way to get the penetration with pushing that you do with pulling because the weld pool/metal will get pushed infront of the arc. Short circuit mig has very little penetration and even welding through 1/16th of a in of molten metal is enough to lose some penetration. The same situation can be found with stick welding. You can actually push to a certain extent and if you do the penetration drops. The same situation exists in vertical down vs up. Downhill mig welding produces worse than zero root fusion because the molten pool is thick (due to gravity pulling it down).

[@ericroot8475]

I haven't done much structural welding with mig. I worked at an ornamental steel shop, that's where my mig experience comes from, and only one guy in that shop was certified. we ALWAYS welded vertical down cuz it looks nicer 😄but we were also typically welding 1/8" mild steel. as long as we weren't undercutting, it was assumed stuff was "guttentack'd". 😉 I like the video, and I'll definitely try to get more comfortable pulling.

[@whipyst7635]

The thing with push is yoy have to get the angle and everything perfict if yoy can do that that you get more pen but meny people cant get it right

[@Freetheworldnow]

Greg, I think you nailed it pretty good on this one. But overall, the secret is to keep the wire in the pool. As the pool acts as a preheat and then comes the cavalry and melt/fuse that metal in a true and permanent manner. Also, I believe that you should invest in a good metal cutting bandsaw, like an Ellis... Thanks for sharing! God Bless. WWG1WGA

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Your thoughts coincide with the fact I want to test whipping out of the pool and then letting the wire fill, aka a whip and pause. A lot of people have talked about this giving root fusion, solid reinforcement, and a visually solid look (sort of dimes). I think doing this will lose root fusion because there will be virtually no molten pool. It will be interesting to see what happens. Keeping things consistent is the best way to get consistent results 😀

[@michelastegiano7442]

le sens de soudage n'est pas très significatif et c'est tant mieux car en MIG alu jamais tirer provoque des remous catastrophiques , ce qui est important avant tout c'est de bien fusionner la racine donc j'ai pris l'habitude de toujours pousser, mais tant que c'est possible dans la configuration des pièces avec un angle de torche proche des 90°

[@ericarachel55]

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

😀👍👍

[@freeidaho-videos]

Thanks, my intuition was the opposite.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Visually pushing makes welds that look hotter and that suggests more penetration. It’s definitely odd to see a slightly more roped up bead perform better because visual alone you wouldn’t think that. It all comes down to not welding through a molten puddle giving more penetration. It’s also probably why stick generally has more penetration, you don’t push it, which assures more root fusion 😀

[@Hans-Yolo]

Pulling and only CO2 would be interesting

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

When I get back from the trip I am on I will be running co2 for a bunch of tests 😀. It will be interesting to see how it fairs.

[@franksocia5974]

1/16 steal won’t holdwhat3/8 will get right dude

[@raykaufman7156]

MIG welding machines are lazy. If you've done many tacks on fillet joints, you'll know what I'm talking about...lol. I push (so I can see better) but I also move the gun back and forth (just slightly) until I see the arc move from one plate to the other. Its not even visible in the bead shape, but makes a huge difference in the bead strength. I know this is a variable outside the scope of your test, but it helps regardless of whether you push or pull.

[@brnmcc01]

I've found if I pull I can see better, the gun and wire isn't so much in the way. I suppose it depends on position, whether flat, vertical etc as well.

[@raykaufman7156]

@@brnmcc01 Interesting. I keep my head directly in the path of the weld, so when I pull, the gun is right up next to my helmet. Not easy or comfortable. By pushing, I keep the gun further away from my head.

[@brnmcc01]

@@raykaufman7156 Yes, it all depends on what you're working on. A flat lap joint or butt weld on a welding table at a comfortable working height is a world of difference than being inside a nasty garbage dumpster, or under a car trying to weld an exhaust hanger, you just have to figure out what works for you. Remember the most important thing in welding, is your ABC's (Well besides proper PPE). Always Be Comfortable.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

That’s the one thing I really don’t like about gas shielded mig, is the nozzle obstructs the view significantly. That’s why I actually like flux core without a nozzle, it’s so much easier to see what’s going on. Not to mention gas shielded mig needs a close stickout in comparison. No doubt there are tons of situations where you have to push or pull only. Welding completely obstructed will result in a worse weld than the strength difference between push or pull lol.

[@bandittelevision]

If you went to welding school you would not be asking this question

[@Tom-og7fi]

If you know how to weld with stick you know that you never push, ever. The same applies to mig.