When Are Wkg More Important Than Raw Watts? And Are Lighter Riders Disadvantaged In Zwift?

[@mynab]

New to Zwift (2mo) and a light rider (57kg) I was wondering exactly that. Always felt I had to put more W/kg than the rest of the group 😒 Thanks for the video !

[@Ad-my9kg]

And this is why group rides, which are mainly flat, should not use w/kg when trying to inform other riders of the event, and what it will take to hang with the group. You have no idea if the ride leader weighs 100 kilos or 50, so it's a useless metric. But still groups insist on using it, so light riders join and often find them selves being dropped.

[@AlejandroMallea]

The weight of the ride leader is irrelevant, what's important is who goes to the front and pulls the group, and that's usually a group of various participants taking turns (intentionally or not). The W/kg as informed by the organizers is still a pretty useful metric, because it affects the overwhelming majority of riders. If you happen to be in either end of the weight distribution, then you can make your own estimations of how much more or less power you'd have to put to stay with the main group.

[@Second247]

@@AlejandroMallea W/kg is the most important metric in Zwift. I've been running tests with this and 50kg vs 90kg person, BMI corrected at 22. So not this stupidity that you just change the weight and not the height. Both using time trial bikes pushing 3W/kg travel about the same speed. It's just stupid that people talk about weight when there is no height involved. Zwift has aerodynamics modelled into it afterall. There is 1km/h difference in favor of bigger guy at around 40km/h speeds. Which in group in literally nothing. And smaller people tend to be more efficient so they can push higher w/kg so that difference should even out.

[@smithpauld1501]

I agree and I lead rides, so this is what I posted last Saturday: Truth in advertising, I weigh 86kg, so I’ll be trying for 103 watts to get 1.2 w/kg. If you’re lighter, 103w may mean you’ll need a higher w/kg - 1.35 w/kg for a 75kg rider. Conversely, at 100kg, 103 watts is 1.0 w/kg for you. Rounded.

[@robertdiez3091]

For ZRL this isn't all true. Yes the sprinters did sprint for points but i was able to sufer wheel an eat into the sprint legs on attacks inbetween forcing teams to burn riders to main speed. An totally removes race tatics. As a rider who like breakaway its timing an when to do that can kill the group from chasing then to get a free gap with well timed attack its just race craft.

[@Ad-my9kg]

@@AlejandroMallea In a group ride it has nothing to do with who goes to the front and pulls, if the leader is keeping to what was advertised. Yes, w/kg is useful to know if there is no other metric, but on the flats there are better metrics.

[@BLachance75]

I’m a heavier rider, 85kg and I find it easier to just watch the pack and see where you are in it. When in a pack drafting I slowly lower my output until I stay in roughly the same place. On a short climb/kicker I’ll power through and try to move forward. On a long climb, 5+ minutes, I try to maintain a consistent output knowing that others will go to hard at first and will fall back.

[@nerdboyjoe]

I’m a heavier rider who can put out high raw watts. Now I know why I usually kick butts in flat races! Thank you!

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

Keep crushing the sprints/flats!

[@nerdboyjoe]

Excellent information. I always thought that W/KG was king, even on flats. Now I know better.

[@johnbowers5447]

It’s not just the weight of the bike that makes a lighter rider have to work harder even when climbing at 9 kph. It’s also that wind resistance hasn’t disappeared. There is still *some* wind resistance. The math is fairly straightforward. Consider that you have 3 forces to overcome, the deceleration force due to gravity F_g (let’s call that F_g), the deceleration force due to air resistance F_a, and then the rolling resistance F_r. The deceleration due to gravity is linearly proportional to weight (in fact, it is F_g = m(xg) where x is the gradient as a percent and g is the gravitational acceleration constant 9.8 m/s^2.) To not slow down the rider must be producing enough forward force to exactly equal F_g + F_a + F_r. The 50 kg rider’s F_g is exactly half of the 100 kg rider’s F_g. Let’s say the lighter rider is committing 100 watts to overcome F_g (2wkg). This means the heavier rider is having to commit 200 watts to overcome gravity. But that isn’t enough, even at 9 kph. F_a is not zero, and even if it is only 10 watts for the 50 kg rider to overcome F_a since they are moving so slowly, it’s going to be a lot less than 20 watts for the heavier rider to overcome F_a. So the light rider is having to do 110 (2.2 wkg) while the heavy rider is only having to do something like 215 (2.15 wkg) to overcome F_g and F_a.

[@erik....]

A very complicated way to say wind resistance doesn't really matter at slow speeds, just as pointed out in the video.

[@vincentdavis]

I have ridden zwift on a tandem. Yep, stuck the Tandem on the trainer. As a couple we have an ftp of about 420watts, 3.5wkg. Race tactics are completely different than my personal cat A light 250, 4.5 tactics.

[@rsam346]

Common misconception (that this video covers) is that heavier riders ALWAYS have an advantage in theory. Lighter riders ALWAYS need to put out a higher w/kg than a heavier rider to go faster. The thing is, the heavier you go, it becomes less physiologically possible for someone to put out that same w/kg. E.g. a 100kg rider doing 650 watts up a mountain would probably drop pogacar/vingegaard, but producing 650 watts for an hour has never happened. Even riders like MVDP can't do it. So there's a physiological trade off between weight and power, and a 'meta' weight depending on the parcours

[@S9999Frank]

Lighter riders always have an advantage immediately as the road goes up, and they have the advantage of compensating for lack of raw watts on the flat by sitting in the draft. If anything lighter riders are getting the advantage, as they need to put out less power.

[@gordon7904]

@@S9999Frank that would hold true if we didn't have fixed power boundaries on categories which means the heavier rider is always at advantage in a category as a heavy rider riding at max category threshold will always be faster than a lighter rider.

[@jacktheripper29]

Nice vid! It may seem after watching this there are no benefits for lighter riders. But its important to note, lighter riders will typically have a higher w/kg baseline by default.

[@jakobjas4212]

Yep that's definitely something to note. to add 1w/kg at 50kg, you need to output an additional 50 watts. For a 100kg rider that's an extra 100w. If we take an extreme example, it's why guys like Ganna would need to put out close to 600w to keep up with the much lighter GC guys on a big mountain finish. While raw watts are still advantageous on a steep gradient, it eventually gets to a point where the raw watts required are beyond the heavier rider's capability.

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

Thanks mate! Im not intending to imply lighter riders never have an advantage, but i did focus more on the disadvantage during this vid. I think with the current structure of D through B cats it can be difficult because of the caps before moving to the next category. I would still rather be on the lighter side for Zwift racing though, especially at the A level (as my preference is doing races with longer climbs, which will consider the higher w/kg baseline you mention). Its not often I see heavier riders winning GC series or non-flat races i enter at the A level (although i know a couple ~85kg who do well). It sounds like @jakobjas4212 was making a similar point below, but also there is probably a limit on raw watts that can be sustained. A Jonas Vingegaard (at 60kg) can likely hold 6.5 wkg (390w) easier than a 90kg could hold 6.0wkg (540w) over a longer time period because its a huge watt number no matter your weight.

[@johnleven2919]

Nice analysis!

[@PatrickLino]

Great stuff my man!

[@thecoffeeblog]

Excellent, one more thing I didn't know. thanks David

[@jacobmarx8184]

Just found your channel and glad I did Awesome video. I'd love to see something on full Aero setup vs balanced vs climbing set-up when drafting. Often wonder in races where you know you'll be drafting most of the way if you're better going for a lighter bike for hilly finishes/FTS/KOMs or sticking with the Aero bike as you still get the same Aero benifits even while drafting. Keep up the good work

[@Rentinho]

I have the same thoughts before every race. Should I take a full aero setup on more flat courses with high speed or should I take a light setup to have an advantage on the decisive (short) climbs ?

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

thanks! glad you enjoy the content! I've actually always had the same question as you on the Aero setup and have a video idea planned for this. I haven't tested it yet, but I've always felt there is a big difference between a watt saved when riding an easy pace on flat road in the peloton, vs a watt saved when you're at the limit trying to stick with the group. And something i think calculators such as zwifterbikes may overlook. stay tunned, hopefully ill have the video out in the near future.

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

glad to see a couple people have this question!

[@Rentinho]

​@@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork Thanks for today's video as you have announced it ... great content with interesting data

[@grzegorzkapaka2655]

Solid stuff, thanks!

[@timothybarnes8468]

This explains very well why the big guys win most races in the low cats on flattish courses; they are kept in the lower cats and have the watts. I recently raced a D cat guy with a zFTP of 258... he weighs 105kg so hes just within the D max of 2.5W/Kg. He wins most of his races with long sprints or breakaways. If you weigh 80kg in Cat D you are capped at 200W FTP so good luck keeping up if he turns the race into a TT. If you want to be competitive and are light I think you need to target Cat B. I also think that the air resistance drag of being a wider person slows you less on Zwift than real life. Moreso because there is never any wind in Zwift. I agree with others that Zwift algorithms are probably kind to overweight riders; they are trying to sell subscriptions to a fitness based game to a very unfit population!

[@danielarntzen4479]

As a heavy rider this has been my experience as well. I haven't been targeting flat races specifically though, so I usually get blown up on any hill lasting longer than 1 minute lol

[@bathsalts1st]

what is ftp ? i only know zone 1 or Zone 7

[@DavidMulligan]

I would love to see a similar analysis to advantage changes between positive and negative grades. Overall, who has the greatest advantage, heavier or lighter riders?

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

I did have one topic idea on my idea list examining what types of course/areas each type of rider has an advantage in!

[@ShawnMcAfee]

Always fantastic info!

[@miles1467]

Interesting and informative thanks!

[@chrisoliver6690]

No wonder I loose to people in Zwift when IRL I'm much faster than them, especially over longer distances. My W/KG is right at the top of my category, yet I can't come close the the podium! Still it's fun trying

[@S9999Frank]

It seems in my experience that there is always a lot of riders in every race who are close to category limit. Maybe those who are low in their category get les fun from racing and dont race as much. A little while back I was Cat C almost B and still had to turn myself inside out to get a top 10 in Cat C and only possible on shorter flatter races. The people you lose to on zwift but not in reality might have to do with tactics either inside or outside or both. Or of course different equipment can play a role.

[@chrisoliver6690]

It's definitely not tactics, I just don't have the raw watts required for a flat stage on Zwift. In my last race in Downtown Dolphin,I came 5th,the winner was 91kg, averaged 0.2 w/kg less than me and i sat in the pack with my tron bike. I had to bleed from my eyes just to stay with the lead group! That guy is never holding my wheel IRL, the slightest bump and I'm up the road. I am small,/lighter than the average rider my age. It's just the algorithm.

[@S9999Frank]

Do you actually know the guy and have ridden with him in real life ? There are some strong big guys too, but in real world there are more "bumps" than in downtown dolphin, which is probably the best race on zwift for heavier guys. I have a friend who is lighter than me, more than 10 kilo, but he kicks my ass on zwift. In real life we are close, but I am usually better, except for long uphill races.@@chrisoliver6690

[@markfawbert2991]

​@@chrisoliver6690 Ditto. I'm dropped in the sprint for the line on raw wattage. I gotta look for routes with climbs and drop the fat basta*...I mean heavier riders on those!

[@TaichoCyclist]

I led Zwift group rides since 2016. I certainly agree that relying entirely on w/kg to dictate pace is an inaccurate measure. Flats should adopt speed as a constant value for riders to follow made it easy to keep everyone together. Anything above 2% or on a rolling course or have climbs should switch to w/kg.

[@TaichoCyclist]

Here is a clip of how I use speed on flat and w/kg on elevations. kzbin.infoBF0REajnxGs?feature=share

[@duncanvanderaar4480]

The big question is how this relates to real-life outdoor riding. If the dynamics are the same then Zwift offers a good simulation of IRL, if not then Zwift needs to adjust its algorithms.

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

I think in general Zwift's algo does fairly well in simulating riding. There are a couple of things that will make Zwift speeds higher though, 1st it assumes 0 wind speed (never have to face a headwind/crosswind). It could be interesting and offer more tactical dynamics if they lets say took the wind speed / direction forecast in London and applied it to all the London courses for that day. 2nd there is no need to ever scrub speed in Zwift, on some of the rolling courses you can just pedal through the turns / slight downhills, whereas IRL you may have to tap the breaks (could be a cool idea for Zwift to offer a race that incorporates this, maybe AdZ, climb up it and then do the decent, but you are required to break on downhills and then sprint to regain speed, they could apply some sort of time penalty if you take a corner to fast). 3rd there is no need to watch out for / call out debris in road and avoid it, in Zwift you don't need to focus on obstacles and can power through to the front increasing group speed. I think these factors make it hard but not impossible to exactly simulate IRL, but think some of these features could make the game more interactive, and slow down total speed. Thanks for the question! it got me thinking if IRL crit races have podiums which are similar. i don't know of a good way to get the data, but it would be interesting to see the podiums and weights of riders between cats 1 through 5.

[@koekskesdoos]

Zwift does a good simulation of riding, but in real life there are no categories based on watts or watts per kilo. Zwift uses wpk for all races, where it is only usefull on mountain races. Think they should recalculate categories based on the route profile.

[@bobobasis]

Thanks for addressing this. It is really difficult for a lighter rider to compete in flat races. I hope Zwift will make changes to make the playing field more fair.

[@JasonLeBel]

And it's harder for heavier riders to compete with lightweights, especially since lightweights are allowed to average more wkg (Zwift was nerfed to make it "fair")

[@bobobasis]

@@JasonLeBel my FTP is around 3.0 w/kg, around 210 plain watts. If I want to keep up with the peloton on flat cat c races, I need to put out more watts. Probably averaging above 3.1. Won’t that put me in cat b immediately?

[@S9999Frank]

90% of races seem to gave hills where light riders are favoured, and are able to form breakaways. But you think the stronger heavier riders should not have an advantage on the flat ? Guys like Ganna should not be faster on the flat than your average 58 kilo climber ? How would that be fair to the stronger guys who can not compete at all on the long climbs ?

[@bobobasis]

@@S9999Frank I'm not saying stronger heavier riders should not have an advantage on the flat. The problem is that lighter riders don't have an advantage on the climbs because the categories are based on W/KG. The heavier riders can compete with the lighter riders uphill because they have the same W/KG category limit. Whilst on the flat pure watts are more important, and they do have the advantage because they can put out more pure watts.

[@thcpills]

@@S9999Frank hills mean downhills where heavier riders have a significant advantage. So zwift's algorithm basically negates any advantage lighters riders have meaning lighter riders basically have zero advantage in zwift.

[@erik....]

As an overweight man this doesn't really apply because my baseline is still closer to that of a 65kg man but my body is 95kg so I guess I got the worst of both worlds. But it's a good motivator to lose some weight to become faster up the mountains..

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

I bet you have some specialty though! What type of races do you usually try and enter?

[@repmortskcab8483]

Fantastic video! Question, the 7.5kg bike weight, is that confirmed it's used for all raiders regardless of weight/height? I am also very interested in the topic of acceleration wrt weight and speed, so that would be awsome if you dig into that more. Also rolling "Titand Groove" is it easier to be heavy? I always feel I have to work harder sitting in the pack when it's rolling vs flat. Most heavier riders avoid races with long steep climbs. So Im left fighting with light riders who are much better climbers than myself, leaving me to think that I suck at climbing as well 😂 Burritos is more damage to light riders as well. If I drop a burrito on a heavier rider on my wheel, I don't think he'll even notice. If a heaver rider drops a burrito in my face, I have to fight for my life. Odd thing is the change with Anvil. A misused Anvil get 0 negative effect, such as using it on uphill. Fair but why is not the same true for feather? This also benefit the heavier rider in "misusage" situations. Anyways, regardless, I love Zwift racing 😊

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

That's a good question on bike weight. I assumed weight would be consistent as all riders would use the same (best) bike for a given route. However your question gets me thinking, I think the only variable that would matter here is rider height, as bikes of 55 and 61 would have slightly different weights IRL. I do know zwift considers weight of some components and fixed an old bug that considers groupset weights. but to my knowledge I haven't come across anything that shows they consider frame size. My guess is they don't. Even if they did though, I checked some IRL frame weights on weightweenies, the frame size only appears to add a couple hundred grams, so the increase is fairly small compared to rider weight. Planning to check some more into the acceleration question. I did do a quick test over the weekend and commented on another comment below 👇. Regarding heavier riders tending to avoid long climbs. I do find this to be true and also the inverse for lighter riders. It tends to be lighter riders like picking climbing races while heavier ones prefer courses that end in bunch sprints. I guess the mindset isn't much different than IRL 😁 and picking routes/races you enjoy (do well on). Hopefully this response isn't too long 😂

[@jaaft3946]

Hey, i'm a lighter sprinter and i've always had a question about how acceleration works in Zwift. In real life a lighter rider will accelerate faster at a given wattage vs a heavier rider. Is this also true for zwift?

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

interesting question, i did most of these test with a steady state speed/power, but could certainly look into the acceleration aspect. Are you interested in knowing if rider A at 60kg and rider B at 80kg were both in the same peloton (same starting speed), would the lighter rider reach his top sprint speed faster than rider B, if each produced the same 500 watts over lets say 15 seconds? I could look into it and follow up on it.

[@jaaft3946]

Yes, that's exactly what i would like to find out!@@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork

[@3ViLSisu]

@@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork I've been wondering this as well. Also, if accelerations are realistic, it would give some merit in using the feather just before you start sprinting :P

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

I'll have to do some more in depth testing but I ran a couple quick tests and can give some initial thoughts. I looked at a 50kg and 100kg rider, with a 35kph starting point, in the tempus fugit route (also made sure there were riders to draft off of in front). Both riders held 35kph for a few seconds and then sprinted for 20 seconds at ~400w. 1.) the lighter rider will always have a faster rate of acceleration at a given wattage. It makes sense if you consider the inverse, and the 51% increase in required wkg from the video. Because at a constant wattage (400w) the lighter rider has 100% higher wkg (so its not a 1:1 trade off). Also the heavier rider has a slightly higher CDA and rolling resistance to overcome. 2.) the lighter rider was able to increase speed faster, after 1 second the light rider increased speed by 1.5kph while the heavier rider only increased by .84kph. i calculated through the first 6 seconds and this pattern held true for each second. 3.) the max speed was higher for the lighter rider 4.) However, there were a couple data points i wanted to review further about the "efficiency" of the acceleration and i can follow up. Also a couple notes from what i understand about Zwift's Pack Dynamics: 1.) there is some stickiness to overtaking riders in front of you, so you will have to increase your watts to overtake another rider (aimed to reduce the pack churn effect). Your initial kick may be effected by this, as a lighter rider may require a higher relative amount of watts to overcome this stickiness. 2.) not confirmed, but ive heard zwift reduces this stickiness in "sprint situations", however, I am not entirely sure how long it takes for the software to classify it as a sprint, so there could be delays.

[@jaaft3946]

Thank you! @@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork

[@Vempire123]

I am a 100kg heavy C rider and I feel like at 4% there is a change to w/kg. At 1% I‘m the fastest, probably because the resistance lets me bring more watts in the pedals. The longer the climb, the more disadvantage the heavier rider gets. Short climbs can be pushed through.

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

Agreed, the longer the climb is, i think the advantage shifts to lighter riders. Even though the wkg output required for lighter riders is more, i find they tend to be able to hold it for longer. The race examples i should were from flatter routes, but my guess would be if i picked a random race with the Epic Kom, we would see lighter to mid weight riders winning. The 4% you are feeling is close to the 5% at 2.0 wkg chart. Even though 1% below, your right wkg will still have a big impact here.

[@markusstaubmann315]

Nice video. Quick question…Does zwift vary the ‘air resistance’ value based on the users input stats (i.e. height / weight)? Or at a given speed (not in draft) is the artificial applied drag the same for all users? Given that when riding IRL the majority of energy expended is overcoming air resistance aka drag. Ignoring body position as a variable…a rider that is 60 kg and 165 cm tall has an approximate body surface area (BSA) 1.70 m2, compared to a 100 kg 180 cm rider with 2.24 m2.

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

Yes there will be a difference between riders of different height/weight and air resistance becomes greater at higher speeds. Each rider will have a different cDA based on their inputs, but each rider will be assumed to have the same bike position (regardless of what position they are in on the trainer standing/sitting). It's interesting, ive heard simply reducing your height will have a decent impact on speed, but haven't actually tested that yet.

[@WowRixter]

In a race or group ride event, I'm rated as a 'B' rider, but really I should be a C, given my age (62). I hang on for dear life in the lead group for the first 1/2 of the event, and burn all my matches. When I hit the first climb I get dropped and end up in no-man's-land until the finish when I'm either caught by the second group on the road or just barely stay ahead of them. My friend suggested I just try to hang with the second major group on the road and I might finish with a better overall result.

[@markfawbert2991]

Fair play for riding that category at that age, but sounds like you'd have more fun in C.

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

Are you right on the cat limit lines? Sounds like you may be 0.1/0.2 above the minimum of cat B requirements and it makes every race extremely hard

[@WowRixter]

@@ZwiftAnalysisNetworkI'd prefer to be in the C group but ZwiftPower rates me as a B. Which is dumb. I'm never going to win any races, but it'd be good to finish in the top 25 in a C group

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

How long have you been in cat B? It very well could be you had 1 great racing just pushing you into Cat B (if you upgraded recently) and after 90 days you could fall back into C. You may also be able to improve by only a bit and compete in B cat. When I first upgraded to cat B I had the same issue where I was dropped before the halfway point my first 10 races. But was eventually able to improve and hang on till the end.

[@WowRixter]

I'm a C now, as I've been off Zwift for 6 months, but once I start doing some events, I get bumped into the B's pretty quick. @@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork At my age, there's no way I can properly compete in the B's

[@williambob111]

kudos on not fukin up " all intents and purposes" :)

[@blackcyclist]

Don't worry about the WKG, just worry about what you are pushing in your own pedals. WKG is just a guide❤

[@johnbowers5447]

Also, there isn’t a gradient where you can stop watching watts and start looking at wkg. That’s the wrong way to think about it. You have to think about speed AND gradient. If you are hammering up a 10% hill at 25 kph, then watts matter more than wkg. Wkg only becomes useful when the speeds become lower.

[@koekskesdoos]

Wpk is a very good metric for mountain courses. But for the flat routes, zwift should use watts, not wkg, to make categories. Because light riders dont have a chance. If they ride the same watts, they will be upgraded to higher categorie.

[@mariovr8416]

I ride with a power meter irl and also cat a on Zwift. It is not accurate when it comes to accelerating etc.

[@patrickkushchuck2831]

In real life being 100kg means more air resistance, especially if you're pure muscle then your air restistance because of larger frame is killing all your gains on flat.

[@robertskochinstitut6653]

Cda matters and it is not proportional as the volume of a rider does not increase proportionally to his weight. The reason why the gains are killed on the flat are indeed others. One is, that at a higher body mass, the body is less efficient. There is more tissue and usually longer limbs that need to be supplied with blood and oxygen. With less surface area per kg/bodyweight, the transfer of heat away from the body is also limited. That is also the reason why even the heavier riders with a huge threshold and good w/kg have issues climbing with the lightweights. If their weight does not stop them, it is the heat. As an expample: Vingegard at 60 kg climbs with ease at 300W. André Greipel at 80kg needs 400W for the same speed. Since humans aren't efficient, only 25% of the energy used actually reaches the pedals. The rest generates heat. That means 1200W for Vingegard and 1800W for Greipel. Greipel does not have 50% more surface area that can be used to cool down the body on a hot day. Not in the flat, not while climbing the alpes.

[@patrickkushchuck2831]

@@robertskochinstitut6653 Great answers that's now i know why i'm sweating so much :)

[@Skeen29]

I've always said it. That's bullying.

[@jorisjanssen12]

But heavyier riders are ussually also taller so I am 85 kilo and 195 and I am ussually doing more watts per/ kg and a higher raw power

[@Cypress1983]

This is all assuming people are accurate (honest) about their weight input. I’d use Zwift races as a training tool when the weather was bad. I’d get dropped in almost every Zwift A race and end up mid pack while winning/podiuming every real life race I entered. I specifically remember one Zwift race where we went up the Epic KOM and I averaged 378W at 69kg (5.5 W/kg) and I was 2 minutes (?!) slower up the climb than the lead group. Took almost 500W to stay in the pack for the first minute on the climb. Too many Zwift racers being scouted by INEOS these days 😂

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

yea unfortunately there seems to be 1 or 2 bad apples in races, which degrade the experience for the rest of us. Did they later get a DQ on ZP? I've found that issue is somewhat minimized if you participate in any of the various racing series on Zwift as opposed to just joining random races throughout the week though.

[@Cypress1983]

@@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork I'm not totally sure about the ZP standings. I'm not a big Zwift racer, so for me it's all about the immediate results. Feels odd to do a race then have to wait for the "actual" results unless it's a time trial. Zwift racing is crazy though... The only time I push that hard in real life is on a finishing climb or final 5k in a crit, whereas Zwift might see those efforts randomly placed and repeated 6-10 times throughout the event. It's a hell of a workout!

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

Agreed zwift racing is crazy hard! I give credit to zwift racing for allowing me to become stronger, having to keep up with everyone. Before zwift I mostly was stuck riding solo outdoors and wasn't being pushed much. That makes sense about the immediate results. ZP doesn't take a ton of extra time to update, but to your point I don't check ZP after every race either.

[@BartSchrijvers]

Frustratingly, you’ll see the lighter rider happily pedalling easy watts in the draft and yourself pushing 300 watts continuously, even on flat roads, just to keep up with a fast group ride. That’s not a true life scenario at all! A heavier rider would only need slightly more watts to keep up but not by these amounts, hence why I hate the w/kg metric being used. There are only a few sports with all categories of people, large and small, heavy and lightweight, all competing on the same level. Most often you’ll see categories for a reason, but riding a bike greatly balances all the potential benefits one can have. I would totally destroy Remco in a boxing ring, but it’s definitely the other way around on a bike, already hinting it’s not the bigger and stronger riders that have the advantage here, certainly not when w/kg is key.

[@Neekogee]

So if A. those results can be translated in real life and B. I understand them correctly, why do, featherweight cyclists are better at climbing if there is still this 8% gap ? As a 51 kg myself, I don't understand when the maths are in my favor and how so... How is it my time to shine on a climb, a place where I only need to put 5 to 10 % more power than everyone else just not to get dropped ?

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

The math is technically never in your favor. However, with outdoor racing the category boundaries aren't based on wkg, so its less of an issue. In reality though, you as a lighter rider get an advantage from two things. 1.) There will be an upper limit on how many raw watts a rider can produce. Eventually you get to a weight where its just not possible for the human body to hold so many watts (i.e., you dont see any pro's producing 6wkg power weighing a 100kg needing 600watts, but there are more as weight goes down). If a rider of 60kg adds weight, they might may add 30 watts (to 20 minute power) but their wkg may decrease slightly. If a 100kg rider adds 10kg, they will still add watts but it would be less. Basically, there is a diminishing return to how many watts you can add simply by being heavier. 2.) As you add weight it becomes harder to hold the high wkg over longer durations/climbs. Heavier riders produce more heat and will have more difficulty dissipating it. So although you still need 5 to 10% more wkg, the advantage will shift as the climb becomes longer.

[@raunefare]

When below cat. A it's better to be heavy at least if you can put out close to the top off w/kg at least when people aren't cheating. My last race cat b up alpe du Zwift the winner was 29kg and put out 4.7w/kg(136w) for 1.5 hours xD but his time was only 30 sek faster than my fastes time doing the alpe at 4.1w/kg at 87kg

[@S9999Frank]

that did not make much sense, 4.1 w/kg and 1.5 hours up the alpe ? Should be under 50 mins with that w/kg. And 29 kg riders should be disregarded, as they are obvious cheats.

[@raunefare]

@@S9999Franksorry I didn't explain that to well he did it in 47 min the race was 1.5 hours

[@raunefare]

@@S9999Frank and yes it's pretty obvious that he is cheating.

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

Hopefully most of the riders in the race ignored him. It's always frustrating when this happens, even if he later gets a DQ it still affects race dynamics as people chase.

[@TueKruse]

Could you maybe draw the point from your video that a light high B might be better of in A simply by the fact that A riders are much lighter and the B riders thus less disadvantage? Or no?

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

I would be careful about drawing that conclusion. yes i think that your A cats higher threshold for weight will be around 80kg while Bs will be higher maybe around 90kg... so if you are a 60kg rider, your correct the difference is much more manageable. However, you run into the issue that many A races have segments you may not have the power required and thus are dropped early/mid way through the race. Reviewing my ZRL season 3 race #1 and the A's were putting out above 5.5/6.6 on the five/two minute powers to maintain contact with the lead group, for comparison the B winner was 4.9/6.5. That being said, if you cat up you will likely become a better rider from having to push yourself on these segments and with time the disadvantage would be diminished.

[@vincentdavis]

I am a light ~59kg A. I am right on the 250watt req. for A cat. It sucks! Well, it’s really hard anyway.

[@vulcanjibe]

You really have to have never ridden a bike in real life to ask that question. 😂😂😂😂

[@morganconey4814]

Unfortunately zwift makes some rubbish linear drag assumptions based off height which is another unnecessary curve ball. Since position is the main influence on drag which zwift can't know the logic of a linear cda penalty based on height is poor.

[@neobike]

Lighter Riders are advantaged In Zwift. Just check the weight of the elite. Heavy riders are totally excluded from the top.

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

Once you reach the top 5% or so i would agree that lighter riders become more advantaged and the top ranked riders are in fact on the lighter side, as there is a limit to how many raw watts humans are capable of. However, the perspective i was coming from is about the average rider. The majority are in the C, and B cats and often racing in these Cats almost feels completely different than competing at a level of the Zwift Grand Prix riders.

[@neobike]

@@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork Well, not being able to be top 5% in a game you participate, celebrate and pay for is quite a big disadvantage, right? Zwift could easily set up the game so that heavier riders would not be excluded from the top. But that is not made. Them trying to mirror outdoor cycling, which makes the same exclusion to heavier riders, seems more important than including the heavier riders in the game. Having to be light to be able to compete for the top spots is undoubtedly a huge advantage to light riders. Also since light riders are advantaged in this respect, heavier riders can e.g. steal Ranking Points from lighter riders in flat races, giving heavier riders better ranks. Had Zwift not advantaged lighter riders, the lighter riders could also steal ranking points from heavier riders on steeper climbs - but the heavier riders are excluded in Zwift by how Zwift makes it impossible for heavier riders to make it to the top = a disadvantage. I think this aspect is an important complement to your statement that lighter riders are disadvantaged in Zwift, hence I added the comment. I understand that you take things from a more narrow perspective, but I think your statement, which is quite generally stated, is not valid over the line. I would trade the current disadvantageous system any day for a system that did not exclude heavier riders from taking part in the game and having a chance to reach top positions.

[@covboy70]

Great Video - I also called out a lot of this in my own video on TTT. It winds me up that people are obsessed with W/KG. I said about 3-4% without this detail, just as a guide for TTT. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnullqRoacdlkKc

[@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork]

Thanks mate! i've actually watched the video you linked before! its certainly helpful for TTTs 👌

[@nationsnumber1chump]

🙋‍♂️ hi, uhm WTF?! 🤷‍♂️

[@Air1_R1]

zwift advantages light riders

[@Tarmaccyclocross]

A load of bollocks