When Does .366 APM One Tap Thorax?

[@Gigabeef]

Class 4 Armor Guide link here! kzbin.info/www/bejne/sJasi4NsiduVo80

[@Codec264]

Can you do some testing with DRD paca? I was shot by a guy on labs with BP gzh into drd paca and it took him 5 shots to kill me; I'm not sure why/how and I'd be interested in what you can potentially uncover.

[@Gigabeef]

Hmm doesn't make sense as far as I can tell... it died to APM just like it should

[@Munky332]

​@@Codec264 Might have just been luck of the draw as its a 97% chance pen, so it could just be that you hit that 3% a couple times in a row, could also have been some sort of desync where you "saw" yourself get hit, but didn't actually get hit, or you weren't actually hit that many times, or potentially he had some other type of ammo you overlooked at the death screen. Some people aren't loading up all the gucci ammo and stick to like just a few good rounds on top with some lower class ammo on bottom. ie maybe he ran 2-3 rounds of BP but PS or US underneath it, or vice-versa. I know some players are running US for 3-5 rounds, then the good stuff after, for those full auto mag dumps, as the negative recoil from subsonic ammo allows the automatic recoil to kick in, then you start flinging the good shit.

[@domenico7806]

Wait so,more initial velocity amplifies the max damage possibile,now i am curios is it possible in the future to have a video about this with all shotgun e shotgun round? cause with this in mid the DB should be a monster cause it has so much more velocity modifiers than otger shotguns

[@FeatherP]

@Gigabeef it's pen power * armor damage instead of damage * armor damage if the first option was correct everyone would just be using rips and going through lvl 6s

[@gagekellstrom3978]

Whenever it makes contact with my body.

[@heisenhaure3]

Same with scav buckshot, pso 9x19 and m855

[@capt.raptor4650]

"when does [insert any round whatsoever] one shot?" when it's coming at me. "when does [the best ammo for any given caliber] _not_ one shot?" whenever I use it. doesn't matter where they hit, what armor they're wearing--if they're wearing armor at all--it just _won't_

[@juns1312]

thanks for taking the time to create this breakdown. It was produced well and the results are extremely appreciated.

[@harrymalm]

Hey Giga, maybe you should make a video clarifying how damage mitegation actually works, because most players probably don't know, which leads to misconceptions like the old 7.62x54r PS round being able to 1 tap, or about AP-M like in this video...

[@Gigabeef]

Well this is a start I guess - I wasn't aware of exactly which one would work well or not, it's all old info from NoFood that is still used as a rough rule of thumb

[@arkplayer179]

7.62 54 can 1 tap if it shrapnels but not by default pen

[@Yamaazaka]

PS used to always 1 tap to chest until this patch

[@harrymalm]

@@Yamaazaka on naked players under very short ranges after 12.12 and never through armour due to damage mitigation, unless a fragmentation would occur. Watch Gigabeef's video for more info: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6KUZpKaobyhe5I

[@z-junlai3804]

Prior to 12.12 ballistic changes, 7.62x54R definitely 1 tapped through at least class 3 armor, without needing fragmentation. It did not against class 4.

[@GlowingSpamraam]

Would be interesting to see a video like this on the PS-12B round as it has 46 pen and 102 damage and i would be interested to see how far out it onetaps people

[@pcxPOT]

@Thawne wdym?

[@Kcii-99]

@@pcxPOT i think hes stupid

[@Gigabeef]

A long way I think haha. The calculator says 400m for nakeds and has 38 pen when it gets there

[@neophyte1994]

@@Gigabeef yeah imagine being able to hit someone with 12.7x55 at 400m lol

[@bomjus1706]

friend and i tested it last wipe. around february. after the ballistics "fix." ps12b loses too much damage/penetration to one tap someone in FULL DURABILITY tier 4 armor around 75 meters. my friend at 75 meters had 4 HP left on his thorax. if the target is closer than ~50-60 meters with T4 armor, or has T3 armor, or has low durability T4 armor, then you can one tap them in the chest. but you won't be one tapping people in T4 at 100 meters+

[@_VinSi]

7:12 this happens because the number that is multiplied by the armor damage is not the flesh damage of the round, but the pen value (which if I remember correctly should be around 42, with the ap-m bullet) so the actual damage the round should do to armor beforr applying the material destructibility is 25,2

[@Gigabeef]

This makes a lot more sense!

[@JohnnyDoesSwords]

AP-M is a solid round to use and even though it’s not a simple one-tap wonder, the psychological impact cannot be understated as it hits like a truck, often forcing your opponent into a panic as they lose a bunch of HP. And the noise it makes coming out of a 215 inside buildings is glorious!

[@JohnNaru2112]

Not to mention if you go for a headshot it goes through the average helmet people are using.

[@anhiirr]

i used it a bit when i got Work bench to II with some vpo 209s Some good ol quick 2 taps in the chest when prone. Makes squadded up bois think youre running something big before their buddy tells them you dropped them with ap-m and they know your kit and attempt to push/nade flank you. Also very good v bosses early IMO

[@arcadeslum5882]

@@JohnNaru2112 i reckon a ulach would save you though?

[@sadnikcontainik]

So does the RFB, SA-58, SVD, M1a, Sr-25.. but they don't have as much recoil and some of them are cheap like RFB

[@bigpaps7696]

just got jumpscare while rushing crackhouse.. still have no idea where he was but it was a big kadoooooonnggg

[@DookieNr88]

one of the best analysis so far. I always wondered, why nobody test it out with different distances. Thanks

[@swords2102]

I love your Videos, some of them like this one feels like a high quality documentary. Everytime I see that u upload a vid a little smile comes to my face and I know I'm gonna have a good lil time. Keep it up my man, every video I learn something new

[@Gigabeef]

Ahh so kind :) appreciate it!

[@theKNI]

Great info as always. I love that Tarkov is complex enough to allow this kind of video to happen. When there's so many variables involved in a game it feels better to me because you can always figure out some sort of edge over your opponents whether it be ammo type, weapon mods that change weapon stats or armour that may or may not save your life but is a little lighter than others or less expensive to repair etc. It just gives more to think about and extends my enjoyment of the game as it feels like extra content over other more basic FPS's. Lastly I made a weird error with .366 AP yesterday by sticking it in an SKS. It accepted the ammo but wouldn't fire it and mid firefight I was going apeshit trying to get the round back out and couldn't so I had to dump my brand new SKS and take a gun off a dead scav to finish up. What other games deliver that kind of panicked fun?

[@Gigabeef]

Haha love it

[@birdlawyer6191]

I dunno, I disagree a bit. I enjoy the game, but I'm not far into it. To me it feels like the game is trying to be more "realistic" with some things but it fails at the most important aspects. The game is not balanced, you can pay for an advantage, a low level player has such a low chance at being able to take down a high level player, and not because of skill but because they have rediculous armor and weapons and ammo so much better. You can dump 17 5.56 rounds point blank into the back of a player's chest and then they turn around and kill in 1 or 2 hits. At that point I'm just wondering what's the point of needing heavy bleed, light bleed, fracture, pain, tunnel vision, and health points when 17 rifle shots to the chest wont take down a high level player.

[@theKNI]

@@birdlawyer6191 I get what you're saying but for the example you gave you need to use the leg meta. If you're a long way behind your opponents in terms of gear then it's a great option. Slap some RIP ammo in a fast firing 9mm laser beam like an MP5SD, Vector or MP9 and mag dump those Altyn chads in the legs. A few hits and they're dead, whilst you have some pristine vests and helmets to pick up because you didn't shoot those. Honestly the hardest part is learning to lower your aim when you see someone.

[@birdlawyer6191]

@@theKNI I do have a really hard time lowering my aim. It's just like instinct to aim at the center. And I get that as a strategy I just think its silly that you gotta do that. I dunno, it is a great game there is just alot of personal problems I have that make the game more difficult. I'm horrible with direction in real life and I'm horrible in the game too. I get lost and separated from my team if I turn away for a second. I have problems with directional hearing, it takes multiple sounds for me to be able to tell which direction. It's hard for me to see people unless they are moving. I dont know the maps well enough, sometimes I get locations mixed up, other people just dont seem to have the same problems I'm having.

[@Thewes2121]

Hey giga! Love the content. Very informative through and through. In the community, there’s lots of speculation that the firearms that chamber .366 are inaccurate at distance. This is due to the smooth bore that both barrels have. I however have not experienced this. Hope to see a video covering this topic. Keep up the great work!

[@Gigabeef]

Yeah people freak out about the -28% accuracy but it's just a percentage so isn't a massive deal! Especially on the 209

[@g0atmoth]

I used this ammo and killed about 100-150 PMCs leveling my bolt action skill a few weeks ago... My 2 cents is that this thing is such a good value in combination with the VPO but my biggest complaint is the insane amount of ricochets I got when I hit people in the head. I think it's the low velocity of the round that increases the chance that players will survive a headshot to the helmet. Hell, I was just editing a tiktok today and I hit a guy in the helmet at about 10-15 meters away and the dude just shrugged it off. Perhaps going for solid thorax shots is the way to go. I did just feel like this ammo performs well under what the stats would suggest.

[@ryanbolson23]

One thing to keep in mind is the angle of which a bullet comes into contact affects ricochet chance as well, so aiming chin area might be better in general as if they are facing you only a few helmets in the game protect chin, and if away it’s common helmets don’t protect nape. And if you connect with the helmet you’ll have a greater chance to penetrate as you connect from a more perpendicular angle.

[@killerbas40]

I always thought low velocity would mean less likely to ricochet, but it apparently is the other way around. It is possible that due to "low" velocity your bullets did not pierce, but for tarkov i think the comment above me mentioning angles applies more. I have had tons of ricochets when shooting 950m/s bullets and to me 600 velocity still seems quite high for the vpo. I have nu clue what is actually happening, especially since it is tarkov. But to me velocity does not seem to impact ricochets too much

[@ryanbolson23]

@@killerbas40 yeah chance based interactions in video games have never been my style. It’s frustrating knowing that something on paper is a low chance, but happens so frequently that it’s a noticeable occurrence in game. Or worse when companies like BSG don’t fully explain factors of their games, forcing the community to speculate on how interactions would work rather than having definitive results.

[@circularpizzabox2134]

Thorax, leg and stomach meta is where this round shines. I’ve had the same experience as you with people wearing ULACH and Wendy’s, it just bounces off like I’m shooting EKo

[@Psydvckthefirst]

@@ryanbolson23 But it's a mill sim, you can't actually make it without chance and chaos, i don't think there is a way to explain this. Like in life you can fire 1000 rounds - have 1 ricochet and then fire another 1000 - have 100 ricochets. There will never be definitive results and that's the beauty of the game, well imo ofc

[@thedofflin]

Literally every video you are releasing answers the thing I was just starting to think about

[@Gigabeef]

Haha neat :)

[@Turfut730]

That's sooo useful info in there, thanks Gigabeef ! AND after 5 wipes, I discover scavs have 3 health pools haha 😆

[@asfgssdfgsdfg38]

thats bc its new of last wipe lmfao

[@finalfragment8432]

same for me 3 wipes

[@asfgssdfgsdfg38]

@@finalfragment8432 that’s bc it’s new you dumb fuck 3 wipes is also nothing 💀

[@M1A2_AbramsSEPv3]

I learned a lot after watching this video, thank you!

[@dm3268]

I think I figured it out: I spent some time yesterday researching and testing to figure out how armor damage is actually calculated. It seems like armor damage is based not on the flesh damage of a round, but its penetration value. So for AP-M the initial calc (at 50m) should be 0.6*40.78=25.2. Then apply destructability modifier: for AACPC, 25.2*.45=11.34. NFAM states there is a 10-15% armor damage reduction when a round penetrates, so applying 15% brings us to 9.64. This is closer to reality but still not exact. Maybe armor damage % drops at distance as well (using the same ratio as flesh/pen, it would be 58.25% at 50m) - factoring this in gives us the final equation: (pen@50) * (AD%@50) * (destruct) * (successful pen multiplier - est 15%) =(40.78) * (0.5825) * (0.45) * (0.85) =9.09 Which matches your result! I didn't know this would work so well when I started typing this comment. Another note: I was finding for lower armor classes the actual armor damage was more than calculated with this formula, so I think there might be an additional multiplier if an armor penetration is higher than armor class but this is speculation.

[@Gigabeef]

And I would speculate that it goes the other way for low pen rounds and high armor class too. Yeah I think yourself and a few others cracked it - armor damage appears to be related to pen almost 100%, but I guess we only have one sample at the moment, more testing!

[@bobdude9595]

I think the nofam charts (including wiki ballistic page) state armor damage is based on pen. There is a lot of info "hidden" on that page that I think people tend to overlook. I should also note that same page says damage reduction from armor is between 0-40% (and ~20% being average) based on how likely the round was to penetrate (so your 34% on level 5 matches this quite well, as its near the maximum amount of reduction).

[@guycxz]

02:05 would be interesting to see how this behaves at different ranges and muzzle velocities. Could you go over a round's base damage and pen? And would you lose damage and pen at point blank range with a lower muzzle velocity? On the face of it I'd expect damage/pen to just depend on the bullet velocity on impact, but it would be interesting to see whether there are any mechanics that limit it.

[@Gigabeef]

Yeah it's all tied back to the "base" stats of a round. This causes some strange effects though, as long barrels and short barrelled M4's have the same damage/pen at 0m, despite different velocities - this continues at range too. This video is what you're asking for, just on a different set of ammunition kzbin.info/www/bejne/fHLYhH2PmtuHo9E

[@guycxz]

@@Gigabeef I see. Interestingly the initial/impact velocity with .366 tkm is greater with the higher muzzle velocity of the VPO-215 up to around 350m, according to the calculator, at which point the ratio is greater with the round's base velocity as the initial velocity. It's similar for 5.45 BT, up to 300m, when firing it at its listed velocity, it should do more damage than when fired out of an AKS-74U, but after that distance the AKS actually does more than a normal length ak74. That's just weird.

[@sorenlerch6682]

My theroey to the armor damage would be that the armor class has a small saying on the damage taken and the matirial has to the destructuion modefiere a raw detruction value that is diffrent for every material thats why class 4 with diffrent material takes diffrent damage and same material in diffrent classes also makes a slight diffrent But my guess is as good as everybody elses :)

[@crisnmaryfam7344]

To translate what he said for other people - Armor Material matters. Ceramic Armor (that also repairs poorly) also has a good protection level, when it is undamaged.. as we know an armors durability effects its mitigation, What hes saying is it effects the durability-destruction modifier as well, Not JUST damage we receive but the damage IT receives also.

[@crisnmaryfam7344]

6:13 Hence why a damaged class 5-6 sometimes is worse than a pristine class 4.. and so on so forth.

[@crisnmaryfam7344]

Table referring to this 6:50

[@DaronMerryman]

Great video!!! Thank you!

[@anonymous94639]

Thanks. Good info for my "kill PMCs with bolt action" quest.

[@thrustfrombehind9869]

I've always thought that depending on the material of the armor or helmet is what also matters when defending against damage

[@thishandleistaken1011]

Minor error in your video-the pen also drops at 80m, and thus the mitigation is different and you can't extrapolate it to shorter ranges. At 12 pen over the armor class there is literally 0% damage mitigation. At close range, M855a1 will do 100% damage through class 3.

[@Snuggles5000]

So damage mitigation is based on pen value compared to the particular armor class?

[@Gigabeef]

Not sure if it matters enough in this case, goes from 42 to 40. Appreciate you said minor error so yeah v small assumption made I think

[@z-junlai3804]

The calculator on Tarkov-Ballistics, while mostly accurate, is not completely accurate and there's some leeway in the numbers. Not sure if it's due to rounding of floating point or not, but the AP-M can definitely 1 tap over 100 meters. I just confirmed this on offline mode with a silenced .366 bolt at 101.4m but 108m it definitely didn't kill. Regarding armor damage, calculation also requires armor penetration. Tarkov-Ballistics also has a armor damage table, which is kind of unintelligible, but does provide some interesting data. Compare PS12 and AP-M. Both have the same armor damage, PS12 has much more damage at 115, but a lower pen of 28. The chart gives armor damage @ 100m, which favors the PS12 given the lower damage drop off. However you'll notice that for any given armor class, AP-M will do more armor damage than PS12.

[@Gigabeef]

Yeah it seems to have much more to do with pen than flesh damage - doing more digging

[@Dyils]

What about mitigation on Class 6? I am very interested to know if the Tiger (Tier 6) is better than the Korund (Tier 5) because they are almost the same price, while the Tiger is lighter. Does it make it better value? Also, does the mitigation also apply to the damage the armor takes? Not just the PMC? The Tiger has bad effective durability, but would it still survive more shots than the Korund (or Gzhel) due to its higher class? Is this something you can look at? Seems quite applicable to anyone that's reached that level already. Every other Class 6 or even 5 is a lot more expensive than that.

[@Gigabeef]

I'm almost certain at this stage the Tiger is better, but I'm going to do a deep dive in a video soon™

[@Dyils]

@@Gigabeef I think so too. I found a Tarkov Armor Calculator made by Bor of Sol. Just a spreadsheet that calculates the pen chance on the Nth shot (so it accounts for how much durability you lose each shot). And it seems a lot like the Tiger is better.

[@dangerousthoughts790]

2:27 I knew that some of these scavs were tanks😂

[@rodiculous9464]

I suppose it's good it doesn't one tap, bc I believe there are both an sks and ar15 style platform coming for this round

[@thenamesdrew2]

Ar slinging ap-m? Oh boy that's hype af can't wait

[@rodiculous9464]

@@thenamesdrew2 yes it's called STM 366, same as stm9 but in 366, hopefully we can also take the giant muzzle brake off of it and use it for the other 366 weapons too, that would make the bolty super fun imo

[@thenamesdrew2]

@@rodiculous9464 semi auto I'm guessing? Shame but still cool

[@John-lr3ix]

Great video, I‘d love to learn more about mitegation, especially at lower armor durability.

[@londo2k103]

so aim for the head! thanks giga keep it up!🙌🏼

[@Choonsey]

I was still working on the outdated conventional wisdom of "APM 1taps class 4". thanks for this!

[@thishandleistaken1011]

That's not outdated. It was never true.

[@lunchbxjr5963]

does anyone know what the sight is at 1:05? i want to use that cause it looks CLEAN

[@Gigabeef]

Swampfox Trihawk, new one. Gonna do a vid about it soon because so many people don't know it exists!

[@lunchbxjr5963]

@@Gigabeef Many thanks man! Don't have skier 3 yet lol but I'll get there

[@t0xifer0us38]

What is that sight he is using at 6:47

[@Gigabeef]

Tac-30 :)

[@ImportedAsianBoi]

Great Video! Been hyped for someone to break down ammo/armor with the use of co-op offline. No one better than you to break things down.

[@Gigabeef]

Thanks!

[@justanotherspectator9]

Watching this vid in between factory runs. Just using a VPO 215 with Geksa rounds to try and get quick kills on timmies. A chad with armor killed me but my 1 chest shot that landed did 7 body damage and 100-ish armor damage lol. I laughed at myself for taking that fight..

[@rudyrw6514]

The armor demage is a percentage of penetration not demage

[@robertflanders3792]

This content is lit. Keep it up.

[@Gigabeef]

Appreciate it!

[@emiliend2976]

what is your optic at 1:16 ? thx

[@Gigabeef]

Trihawk, new one at Skier 3

[@emiliend2976]

@@Gigabeef thx i like you channel

[@Gigabeef]

Cheers! Got a vid coming out on it in a few days btw

[@NachozMan]

Cool was just wondering this as it seemed kinda random now.

[@joshuadavis1787]

when u get one tapped through fresh class 4... meaning they got the 1% frag chance

[@Liqweed1337]

Every tarkov player should see your channel

[@Gigabeef]

Thanks!

[@TheBorble]

Okay, I just died to that in a single shot on Interchange, the 22% mitigation only works when you have full durability and drops off almost completely afterwards.

[@hyperk2]

A guy managed to tank 6 repeated shots of this stuff yesterday for me. Not sure exactly how that happened, but maybe some combination of really good armor, a regen stim and melodonin or something. Either way, I was flabbergasted.

[@Rezurrect_]

Or you probably shot them in the arms trying to hit their thorax.

[@pipecuu]

same for me, probably 2 on the arms and the rest the armor tanked

[@tropical95]

Nice video, thx for all the insights, as usual

[@Gigabeef]

All I had looked at was the info I had which was all pens except for vs the Hex which seemed similar. However it turns out it might be entirely related to pen rather than flesh damage, so I'm doing some more investigation and seems to work better that way

[@humblenoob7631]

1:06 what optic is this?

[@Gigabeef]

The new Trihawk @ Skier 3

[@humblenoob7631]

@@Gigabeef looks like a really clean optic

[@Gigabeef]

Got a vid on it coming shortly!

[@wrathisme4693]

So what is the best ammo for chest 1 taps? I really want to get into sniper gameplay and I thought the VPO would be my best bet but now I know better. I have all LL3 traders, just need to lvl for 4, and a fully equipped hideout, all for the first time ever

[@Gigabeef]

Honestly nothing will for regular snipers now outside of the 338 Lapua FMJ's. T-46M and LPS will fragment and one tap 20% of the time to the thorax, outside of this you're looking at ASh-12 (slow rounds though) or the AP-20 slugs but even these are 50/50 pen vs Class 4

[@wrathisme4693]

@@Gigabeef I definitely am going to try the AP 20 but it sounds like until I get those quests done for the Lapua Magnum guns, the ash 12 is my best bet. Thanks for the input!

[@JustAJauneArc]

I remember getting one-tapped by a scav with .366 AP when I was rocking a brand spanking new Gen4 class 5 armor. I still don't know how it happened, but needless to say I was NOT happy.

[@cha0ss0ldier-4]

Thank you. Tired of arguing with people on Reddit about this.

[@andrewkvk1707]

Wonder if mitigation is affected by durability as well. All armor of the same class acts the same at full durability, but what about after follow up shots? 80% dura class 5 will act like class 4, but is the mitigation the same as a class 4? Different materials become important to preserve as much durability as possible.

[@Gigabeef]

Good question tbh, you would expect the mitigation of a damaged class 5 to be less than a full class 4, even if the pen chance is the same on the next shot

[@CreEpeRneSs125]

Almost feels like the story with mosin PS ammo again

[@Nick-ob1ir]

Great video, one of my personal favorite rounds in the whole game even later wipe. It would be really interesting to see a similar video on ap-20 round as a comparison.

[@Gigabeef]

Mm yeah good idea, will add to the list Edit: thinking about it for 2 seconds more, this is more of a pen chance thing tbh because the damage is so high. APM is interesting because its at 90, whereas AP20 is 164, so still deals well over 130 damage at 400 meters

[@finalfragment8432]

i wanted this question answered so badly a point that u touched on but did not test is at what class 4 armor percentage does it stop preventing a one tap i would guess around 50%

[@Gigabeef]

Yeah not sure, probably about there from point blank maybe even a bit lower. Didn't test the whole scale of dura etc yet in terms of damage reduction, there's a tonne to investigate in this area!

[@nolanmacnichol2347]

Another banger from the big boss

[@johnatanbirt21]

I'm wondering if armor damage is the damage your pmc receives while wearing the armor and not durability points

[@raymondkukulski428]

what scope is this? @1:03

[@Gigabeef]

Trihawk, new scope

[@TheTimTim]

Would not the penetration of the ammo impact the mitigation since higher the pen the less resistance from armor?

[@Gigabeef]

Yeah it seems like it's more to do with the pen value than flesh damage - looking into it more!

[@TheTimTim]

@@Gigabeef =) thanks cause even if all the data seems simple, its suprisingly weird xD

[@zeph6182]

Yet people like to tell me on Reddit that 7.62x54r one tapped constantly before the thorax health change even though it’s been completely disproven multiple times :( Obviously this video takes place after damage dropoff was added but even back then armor mitigation was still a thing meaning you could not one-tap Class 4 or even class 3.

[@Gigabeef]

People gonna people

[@jasonjavelin]

With my boy BP coming off of flea and being a little hard to get to I may start running and crafting this again. You can deck a 209 like a regular AK for cheap and it’s fun to use

[@crisnmaryfam7344]

.336 apm can also be had from Fence at the very start of the game, and often they dont vanish instantly like almost everything else he sells.

[@moon.1311]

armor damage is reduced when the armor is actually penetrated. that could be why youre getting low armor damage figures. There could also be some other modifiers that we dont know about yet.

[@Gigabeef]

Seems like it's more to do with the pen value than flesh damage - looking into it more!

[@Elvy3358]

So basicly,wearing 4 can still get you easily killed if anyone hit you a single bullet in the thorax,you can get 1taped after,which is pretty common in tarkov.

[@souper813]

It would be interesting to see the effective one tap distance for AP-20.

[@Gigabeef]

Will be pretty huge excluding the armor element because the damage is so high to start with

[@souper813]

@@Gigabeef Just wondering because I want to know the viability of Shotgun sniping with AP-20.

[@marklaughlin3192]

It's available at workbench 2 or 3?

[@tanner3168]

Is there any changes to this round, as of March 2024 after the armor rework ?? I’m curious if this round works more reliably, will one shot player’s this wipe.? I recently was just killed in one bullet to thorax while wearing a 6B13 Flora armor (lvl4) from within 50m (lighthouse)

[@Gigabeef]

After ALL the various changes, it currently one taps Class 2 and Class 3, but won't one tap Class 4 of either variety due to damage mitigation (i.e the ULEY or a Class 4 plate)

[@johnvolt2411]

is it based on armor class or on how much difference between armor level and bullet penetration

[@Gigabeef]

Class vs Bullet Pen vs Durability is the full set of factors. So at 100% dura, it's class and pen that matters for the mitigation

[@johnvolt2411]

@@Gigabeef thanks buddy

[@spudmaster1793]

Could it be that armor damage is only calculated off of the damage the armor mitigated? It would make sense that a round that goes straight through your armor wouldn't damage it nearly as much. So PACA would only take the minimum of 1 I'm this case.

[@Gigabeef]

Seems like it's something to do with the actual pen number rather than flesh damage... doing more digging

[@LittleDanny9899]

Just Dumping 2 ideas Regarding the Armor Dmg Dmg Mitigation might work even for the armor itself (as in it would have 22% mitigation on a Pierce? Great then it also takes 22% less dmg) The Transfered Blunt dmg might not be Counted for the Rounds dmg vs the armor And if maybe both of these apply then it could add up thought i have no idea

[@donnyboi1990]

I just had a raid where I ran a fresh 6B5 and ate an AP-M to the chest and it did NOT pen. I ended up killing the guy and genuinely felt bad for him. It made the 6B5 go from 50 to 32 dura. (yes it was close range as well it was about 30m)

[@uninvestigated]

Its weird because the other day on lighthouse my buddy got one tapped thorax through lvl 5 armor from like 100m away. AP-M

[@방울토마토-l7b]

fragmentation probably :l

[@tofu7397]

Beeeeeeef (imma keep doin this for the algorithm)

[@jepu1742]

Isn't armor damage a % of the ammo penetration stat and not damage?

[@Gigabeef]

It seems this might be correct - works a lot better at least. Need to test some more

[@joethompson1898]

Maybe nikita is implementing extra damage variance changes to ammo under our noses…

[@tings.]

Vpo with apm is viable for shooter born this wipe so I'd say it's well worth using

[@mvahonk]

Eh, at 100m+ it begins to struggle with accuracy, bullet drop AND penetration (as it goes below 40 and will have trouble penning Ulachs and the likes) though. Personally I'd hate to lose a potential SBIH kill because of that, so if I'm going into a raid actively looking to do SBIH, I'd always take a "snipier" gun and round, like SNB or M61. Currently my go-to is the M700.

[@radzieckikote8882]

what's the scopr at 1:10

[@lordofkiwi5144]

It looks like a Primary Arms Compact Prism 2,5x

[@-JBO-]

Trihawk Prism from Skier LL3

[@Gigabeef]

Yeah trihawk, new one - vid soon on it

[@alucardonus]

I have suggestion. The armor damage should be full for NOT penetrating hit. Because while it penetrates it doesnt use all of its energy. On stopping, energy transfer is 100% so DMG should be higher. Also armor damage will fall down with distance. There are two consequences in this: Armor with lower class still protects you by lowering overall DMG of the round. Armor stopping the round destroys the armor faster...

[@fu5t719]

what scope dose he have on in 1:15

[@lordofkiwi5144]

It looks like a Primary Arms Compact Prism 2,5x

[@yayeetus5731]

Swamp Fox Prism (3.5x?) from Skier 3 only

[@Gigabeef]

Yeah the new trihawk, gonna do something on it soon because most people don't seem to know it exists

[@BT-ns4xl]

This whole gun is nice for new/bad snipers. If you rat with it, it's insane.

[@bomjus1706]

still waiting on that supersonic vs subsonic sound test. curious how far away someone hears something like a suppressed 308 rifle compared to a VSS/VAL

[@Gigabeef]

Ye want to do it at some point

[@TatsByTaco]

I fully believe the ammo in tarkov needs a "realism" rework. Every x51-x54r ammo type should be able to pen level 4, regardless of ammo type. 5.7 needs to actually penetrate something with FMJ, and .45 should have a pretty gnarly drop.

[@TrashcanActual]

I got one tapped in the torso by this round the other day and MAN did it make me salty.

[@fairyfromabove4336]

@Gigabeef, it would be interesting to know how does armor durability influence mitigation. I mean AP-M have to one shot class 6 with 0 durability at 85m (though i still not sure), but will it one shot class 6 when it's durability makes it the same capability as class 2?

[@Gigabeef]

I think it will scale down as you say. So much to test on this topic now!

[@fairyfromabove4336]

@@Gigabeef Ok, after reading wiki i get that damage reduction is based on pen chance. So if damaged class 6 has the same pen chance as class 2 the damage reduction will also be the same. At least it is what wiki says

[@odins1337]

I think the wikis armor dmg% is if the armor stops the round if the round pens it will do less damage to the armor

[@Gigabeef]

Yeah it does say that, I saw a little bit of that in the data but there's not enough to be conclusive yet

[@deadboyayep8188]

I love this round using the 366 AK MOST PEOPLE WEAR lvl 3 - 4 armor early - mid game You can craft this ammo type it’s the best.

[@Darkmatterdwarf]

May be armor-Mitigation works on the Armor itself and reduces that basevalues? Sounds strange but alot like a thing a computer might do depending on the order of the routines for calculations on a hit.

[@Gigabeef]

Seems like it's more to do with the pen value - looking into it more!

[@D.Trout222]

I tell you what really confuses me is how i can point blank double tap a naked pistoling with .366 ap while he is searching a crate just to have him stand up and run away. Also how the hell do you get the shopping carts out to your car on interchange?

[@Bushcrawler]

What is that scope on The MDR?! 🤔

[@Gigabeef]

Trihawk, new one from skier 3!

[@dylanp629]

I think I've got a good idea of the ranges and match-ups, but you always manage to have a new way of testing or thinking about it so I'm glad to watch this ALSO: as far as I know, armor damage percentage is supposed to multiply with the PEN value of a round and not damage, 41 pen * 60% is a lot closer to the 22 armor raw damage that you observed

[@Gigabeef]

Yep sounds feasible - will test it more but that is MUCH closer

[@deepspacewanderer9897]

Regarding bullet armour damage: Hypothesis 1: Armour damage is a % of bullet's pen, not a % of bullet's damage; with a bit of randomness added in and with armounrs that are higher (and, possibly, significantly lower) tier than what the bullet can pen taking reduced armour damage. So, the formula for armour damage would be something like (posisble component, representing reduced armour damage due to overpenetration not included): A_damage = B_pen * B_arm_damage * A_destruct * Rng(~0,95;~1,05) * k*j Where: k - armour damage reduction due to bullet's pen ebing lower than armour's 50/50 pen chance required penetration j - armour damage reduction due to non-penetration Hypothesis 2: UHMWP destructability is actually ~0.405 and not 0.45

[@Gigabeef]

I think you might be right about the pen -> armor damage thing, will need to test it. Works quite closely with the data I have, but of course it's only one round at the moment so we only have one input number

[@joshraczka8006]

God bless you I’ve been going insane

[@Gigabeef]

:D

[@thiscouldntblowmore]

i would use VPO-209 much more but i hate the recoil / bad ergo with suppressor. In real world, it has some quite potent muzzle brakes available. And same with VPO-215, dog shit ergo with suppressor, it too has shorter barrels and different stocks / chassis available IRL, for better ergonomics / pointability.

[@SalazonesKintana]

Shot 3 times a naked guy with it on factory to the chest today, he tanked them and killed me

[@felixgeen6543]

.366 TKM AP-M gone from the flea now

[@stoopidginger44]

what optic is that at the begining

[@Gigabeef]

Swampfox Trihawk, new scope

[@smokusmokk]

ap-m best round and the vpo-209 best gun in the game. Change my mind

[@kajek777]

bibageef

[@09666slayer]

It one tapped me through a class 3 armor from a scav on woods like week 2 of the wipe.

[@DarkSerris]

Was it a full durability armor ? Either that, or you got the unlucky 1% fragmentation chance

[@godskitten49]

Pretty sure armour damage is a % of the armour piercing value, not the flesh value, this would explain how AP-M did 22 'raw' armour damage since 60% of 41 is around 22

[@Gigabeef]

You know that makes a lot more sense. Will be looking into it

[@sethington719]

Hmm. The armor damage numbers being off is strange and troubling. The numbers don’t make sense even if you’re doing the 60% after what’s mitigated. Maybe it’s 60% of the damage of it not penetrating, even if it does pen? This could completely change what makes some rounds great or not. Also, I’d love a video breaking down blunt/no penetration damage!

[@Gigabeef]

Yeah the ONLY data point I have for this, is it did 9 damage though a Hex. Btw some others have pointed out that armor damage appears to only be affected by the pen, not the flesh damage - the numbers are almost exactly right then, so I'm doing more investigation

[@VioletPrism]

glizzybeef

[@benfl9636]

I got really confused after hitting someone for 80 damage with an APM round in the chest.

[@DankTank374]

The craft for this is so op for me. I craft this nonstop and run 2 10round mags in gun and one in vest w a 30 rounder of crap ammo for scavs. The vpo ak from Yeager lol bolt action not for me...

[@kernel_inpage_error]

IMO BSG could just change the actual armor damage values for different rounds, but missed to update their wiki info

[@Bishox]

BSG is not involved with the wiki at all