When is Bulk Fermentation Done? - Episode 8: “Low and Slow at 70F/21C"

Why do some recipes call for 100% rise and others 30% rise, yet produce similar results? We answer this complex question in a four-loaf experiment. This extraordinary video explores bulk fermentation at 70F/21C and compares it to 80F/27C, the more typical bulk fermentation temperature for the Tartine Country Bread recipe. The results are surprising!
And in a special bonus section in this video -- Meet the Crew -- you get to meet Tom's video production crew a the International Institute for the Advancement of Sourdough Science and Research of Cleveland, Ohio.
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CHAPTERS IN THIS VIDEO
0:00 Introduction
1:43 Understanding Percentage Rise
3:35 Comparison of Recipes
5:12 The Experiment
6:11 The Bulk-O-Matic System
8:02 The Recipe
9:41 The Hypothesis
13:33 The Linguini Example
18:20 Mixing the Dough
22:59 Meet the Crew
24:10 7 Hour Checkpoint
30:14 Loaf 1 Done - 30% Rise - 9 Hours
35:46 What Happens AFTER Bulk Fermentation?
39:32 Loaf 2 Done - 50% Rise - 11 Hours
43:55 Loaf 3 Done - 75% Rise - 12 Hours
47:37 Loaf 4 Done - 100% Rise - 13 Hours
51:51 Scoring and Baking the Loaves
53:31 Comparing the Loaves
1:00:21 Cutting the Loaves
1:06:52 Comparing 70F/21C to 80F/27C Loaves
1:09:25 Slicing the Loaves
1:12:10 Taste Test
1:13:22 70-80-90 Degree Baking Styles
1:19:12 The Low and Slow Method
1:21:09 Summary Findings

[@mariel.8049]

I appreciate Tom's videos for many reasons but especially because he translates °F to °C lol

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@CylindricalFerret]

incredible work, thanks for putting so much work into these videos

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@dilyaramarsh7770]

You are one of the best sourdough scientists I know!!!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback!

[@chimanchoi7069]

Thanks again for taking the time to do this detailed experiment! Really informative!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@alfontana6242]

Tom, all I can say is WOW, what detail you put in this video. It simple amazes me how you can just after bulk fermentation just take the dough out of the bowl throw it in a container with no shaping and the loaves bake great. Bulk fermentation is the most difficult hurdle to overcome when you begin baking sourdough bread, and your videos take that mystery out of it. Great Job Tom!!!!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it. I am always amazed how great the loaves look without shaping.

[@grahamstone1311]

I think this could be your best video yet. Great experiments, great explanations. Many thanks! 🙏🏼

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you so much for the feedback. I appreciate it.

[@ThePhilbox]

I just read 'THE MYSTERY OF PERCENTAGE RISE IN BULK FERMENTATION'. Revelatory! This is perhaps the fundamental concept that eludes so many of us. Now that I have read this I feel I understand everything to understand bulk fermentation.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. That was really my breakthrough research.

[@irmetov]

Very informative! Thanks for putting so much time and effort into educating new bakers

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks!

[@kaleoscreations8069]

This was incredibly educational!! I didn’t know there were so many proofing level indicators! Thank you for this video. I can’t believe this doesn’t have more views/likes!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback. Also check out my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com

[@emmabaido458]

You and your crew work so well together and produce the best content!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!🙏

[@howardbond1583]

Thanks Tom! I live in Arizona and your video has help to explain the variation in crumb I’ve experienced. Now I will focus my efforts on Bulk Fermentation for my 80 F Proof Box.... Thanks Again

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks for the feedback!

[@edgarhilton136]

This is the best Channel on KZbin for learning sourdough thank you Tom for all your effort

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you.

[@cctutorequippingvideos5252]

WOW! Well done! An absolute incredible experiement from start to finish. I appreciate the time and attention you pour into the process. Additionally, I truly enjoy your videos and presentation style. Cheers!!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@nicolalb695]

Dear Tom, after watching this video, I baked a loaf of bread, maintaining dough temperature at 22C throughout. I ignored the clock like you said and assessed how my loaf was doing using your fantastic bulk-o-matic. It was the best loaf I’ve ever made! Thank you so much!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback! I’m happy it worked for you.

[@user-tb3wq5dq8c]

ㅐㅕㅐㅕㅛㅐㅐㅐㅑㅐ7ㅒ8669ㅒㅐㅒㅐㅐㅐ9ㅛ7ㅕㅛㅛㅐㅕㅛㅐ2023.02.13 1호기 금일 작업일지, 보일러 상태&온도일지, 보일러 내부사진, 코팅량 그래프, 도포량 데이터 보고드립니다. 특이사항 - 13시 15분 운드드레싱 작업시작 (점착제 세팅으로 15분 소요) - 17시 30분 작업종료 *1호기 목표수량 대비 생산량 PU뽀로로인쇄 : 3,360 M / 3,360 M (100 %) 운드드레싱 : 1,770 m / 1,900 m (93.2 %) (이유 : 라인변경 및 코팅작업 준비시간을 고려하지 않음)ㅐ

[@SandiHooper]

Thanks for everything. Every video you’ve ever made is a masterclass and no one has helped me make decent bread more than you. What a legacy these videos are!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you so much. I appreciate the feedback and support.

[@tnweed]

You are GREAT! love the crew gag :)

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I had fun making that segment.

[@user-tm9yf3fm5e]

This video was so educational! I will change the way I bulk fermented in the past and look forward to getting better results with my loaves. Thank you for explaining this process in such detail. Truly enjoyed watching❤

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@adamareid]

Meet the crew LOL!!! You're the best in the business Tom

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. That was some of my finest work.

[@lindawilson3071]

Thank you I’ve watched this 3 times now in the last couple years and this is the first time it’s sunk in😊👌

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks.

[@1misago]

Thank you Tom for another wonderful master class in sourdough. Before stumbling across your channel, whenever I made a great loaf, it was more luck than skill, because I often failed to repeat my success. Now, by applying the knowledge that you've generously shared, I'm making real progress. For example, I never knew how to correctly diagnose degree of proof, because other bakers simply don't cover it in sufficient detail. I now know that I had been generally over-fermenting. For my last loaf, applying the "Bulk-o-matic" at 30 minute intervals, I could tell from the windowpane test when the gluten was beginning to degrade, allowing me to cut bulk fermentation much earlier than I usually would. After transferring onto the top shelf of my fridge, I monitored the internal dough temperature every 30 minutes, and realised that the it would over-proof if left overnight. This allowed me to make the right call, based on evidence, to stop the proof early and bake a great loaf by design, rather than by chance.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

That’s great. Thank you so much for the feedback! I tell people that mastering sourdough is all about developing new skills, not following a recipe.

[@rdg4569]

Dear Tom, as I have been baking bread now for close to a year at different ambient temperatures, this video was exactly what I needed to clarify my confusion with regards to the different results I got for the same volume rise during bulk fermentation. Your systematic approach and style of presentation is great (what a difference a renowned director such as Jean-Luc makes), though I may be biased as I‘m of your age and appreciate videos longer than a couple of minutes. Thanks to your videos, I have come closer to understanding the variables involved in the process of bread baking than by reading half a dozen books on the subject. I hope that my wife will never find out that my mystic reputation as the ‚dough whisperer‘ rests solely on your expertise and superb series of videos.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Haha. Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate it. And welcome to The International Society of Dough Whisperers and Crumb Readers. Also check out my recent video on How to Read a Sourdough Crumb.

[@jeanneknight4791]

I learned so much from this video. Now I know why the recipe I have been using is called a Beginner's recipe. It puzzled me because it has the same ingredient/grams as Tartine but it called for 100 percent rise atn70 degrees F. . I haven't let it go 100 per cent much because I saw a chart of yoursbefore viewing that made me conclude that 75 percent is optimal for my winter house temperature of 65 to 70 degrees. Additionally, I know more about what the Tartine aim of success is. It was puzzling because my loafs turned out to look the same as ideal ones seemingly but now understand the protease element and the risks of over fermentation better.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks!

[@BobACNJ]

Another fantastic experiment and presentation, thank you. Your low and slow inspired me to try my own using the Tartine formula. I have to say, I think it did enhance the flavor of the bread a bit...improving on an already great formula with a different process. Happy Baking

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. I was also impressed with different the flavor at 70F.

[@BobACNJ]

@@thesourdoughjourney You are very welcome. I'm glad to hear you also experienced the flavor change. I will definitely be using The Low and Slow method again. Bake Ever On

[@corteltube]

I swear...I have watched endless videos...your’s might be the best....recommending you to my niece as I am trying to help her understand this whole “fermenting” process, and I am rather inept at teaching....😶. Now I will need to watch this twice...only because I consumed an entire glass of wine. Been a rough week...lol...but good stuff...good job explaining. I think bulk fermentation has been the hardest thing for me to understand...this helps so much. 😊

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Bulk fermentation is what it’s all about. Thanks for the feedback.

[@hahathatsgreat2]

Good work again Tom! Hope you write a book one day.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks!

[@aragost]

This explains perfectly why, after some great bakes during spring, I’ve struggled all summer (even if I used an aliquot jar!). With temperatures regularly going over 28C and a wimpy flour, I was simply not set up for success, even at a lower hydration: the gluten degradation made it impossible to achieve great results. Now temperatures have adjusted to a more manageable 25C in the kitchen and I have a flour that I know for sure can handle both stronger fermentation and higher hydration. I’m going to bake tomorrow and with this new information I am confident I can make way better decisions on timing and calling proof. Thanks, this is super useful!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks for the feedback. This was a big breakthrough that no one else has yet discovered.

[@Kokeshiflower]

This is so interesting! I just did my own experiment with cooler proofing for longer (11-12 hrs at 19c) and although I had some shaping issues, the loaf had the best rise I have ever had.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I really like the cooler proofing method. I use it often in winter when my kitchen is cold.

[@Nimsbaking]

Thank you very much for this amazing experiment. I've been baking in this heat and my dough has been noticeably loose. The linguine explanation made it clear why the texture of the dough is the way it has been. I tell people it is best to follow the recipe written by someone in your country (or in the similar climate) for the same reasons you emphasise. Another point, though, is flour. People do not seem to know flour is not flour. I really appreciate you clearly explaining which brands and names of flour you've used. Also, it was lovely to meet the entire crew! Love your sense of humour as always.😂

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@hamishmaclean1409]

Best soughdough vid I've seen! Your videos have really helped to open my eyes to my overproofing problems! I would always be wary of a recipe that calls for a doubling in size, it's often just a sloppy approach and the author assumes the reader will calibrate their own concept of an "eye balled 100% rise" (which in reality will generally be quite a bit less!). Occasionally you'll see people have good results with 100% rise and often it's down to an extremely strong flour they use and some people won't bother with any bench rest time (it'll go straight in the fridge)...thanks again!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. I totally agree. I have a new spin on this coming out next week. Stay tuned.

[@menni8321]

Thank you very much for this video, after having read my comment on your other video. Instead of swimming around in the Sourdough Ocean, I arrive on Sourdough Island😁

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. Good luck! 👍

[@jamesmoyer8386]

Thanks for this. It is very interesting and informative. I am generally getting Loaves that look a bit like 3 or 4; well fermented and nice, but not especially open bread that spreads out a bit rather than exploding up. I’ve been experimenting with % rise but not considered that in relation to dough temp. Most of what you read generally says that the tolerable degree of proof is a function of your flour. The main issue I’m having is that my loaves seem to be over proofing in the fridge. Fridge temp down the bottom is about 3.5 degrees, and I am bulking at 74 to 82 (sorry about units), based on strength of the flour I’ve been bulking to an increase of 40%. Think I need to pull back to 30%, drop to 70 degree or cut final proof to 8 hour or so to prevent the excessive rise. Obviously a bit of experimentation required to find the best outcome. On another note just watched the video with your brother. When baking on your own now would you generally stick to the Tartine method, or would you employ the other techniques mentioned in you alchemy videos?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. Temperature and percent rise are really linked. I bulk ferment to about 30% rise at 80F and 55% rise at 70F. I am experimenting with a lot of different recipes and processes, but I consistently find the Tartine method still produces the best results. But there are plenty of other options out there. I’m working on a minimal handling method overnight bulk fermented at 70F.

[@guardiansr]

I've been doing bulk fermentation at 64F/18C (my kitchen has this constant temperature during the whole year!) from 14h to 17h, and had pretty good loaves! Now I know for sure that I'm in the right path. Your videos helped me a lot to understand the temperature/time relation, and don't be scared to do longer bulk fermentations. Thanks a lot!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks great! Thanks for sharing,

[@guardiansr]

@@thesourdoughjourney thank you for all your research and knowledge!

[@jimfromri]

Really well done and useful results. I would have thought that time-temperature trade-offs could be used to control the flavor profile of the bread. Seems that you may have found some evidence of that but the results were not clearly obvious. Thanks Tom for another great video. Your production crew deserves their share of the credit too, although they look like a difficult lot to work with.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I do not see as much impact on the flavor based on different bulk fermentation times. The flavor differences come more with the longer cold retard, in my experience. I actually like the flavor best at 80F bulk fermentation. I find that brings out more of the complexities of the wheat flavor and a little more of the sour acidity.

[@inferiorquality]

Thanks for yet another very interesting video! Have been exploring your channel and am learning a lot. I am a beginner and have a lot to learn, but even experienced bakers must learn from these experiments, I'm sure they haven't all carried out this variety of experiences themselves. I've been playing around with different fermentation temperatures and times in order to be able to bake on different schedules. The overnight method/lower temperature is very convenient for baking on weekdays whereas the Tartine method/temperature is fun during the weekend, if you have the possibility to spend most of the day in proximity of the dough. I have been curious about the crumb structure on the overnight loaves as I find it's a little hard to tell if they are slightly under or over proofed, but as you showed in this experiment it doesn't really matter, both are perfectly acceptable when it comes to crumb structure, and most importantly they both taste great. Greetings from Sweden, have a great day!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it. I also prefer the overnight method in winter. I mix all the ingredients at once. I do about 8-10 minutes of slap and fold method of mixing. I generally use 10% starter and it will take about 12 hours to rise 55-65% at 67-70F/19-21C average dough temperature. This really makes beautiful loaves. It takes about 30 minutes to do all the preparation in the evening, then I shape the next morning and either bake that day, or put the dough in the fridge and bake anytime in the next few days. I’ll be making a video of this method soon.

[@inferiorquality]

@@thesourdoughjourney thank you for the tip! Looking forward to the full video 😊

[@edmondk8229]

Tom, thanks so much for this video! The information you provided really answered many of my questions. For this experiment, how many stretch and folds did you do for these loaves? For the tartine method/recipe, are stretch and folds required throughout the duration of the bulk fermentation?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I do 4-5 stretch and folds at 30 minute intervals. Exactly per the recipe.

[@yarnexpress]

You're changing my breadmaking life! Thank you so much for all of your hard work putting together these experiments & sharing them with us. My days are composed of unpredictable interruptions. You've given me the solution with low & slow using a super-starter. I'm currently evaluating my starter & will be turning "Doug" into super hero. I don't know what "The Institute" is paying you but it's not enough! (Does the Nobel committee know of the Bulk-o-matic?)

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. Also check out my Post Pandemic method and 2-Stage Bulk Fermentation videos for more options.

[@lutvijahrnjic9670]

Another great video. I wonder if you could do a video on sourdough with ancient grains such as spelt?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I have not worked much with these grains but plan to later this year.

[@lutvijahrnjic9670]

@@thesourdoughjourney thank you. I will patiently wait as I know it will be yet another educational video. Thank you for all you do.

[@Breadhunter2001]

Thanks once again for your detailed videos. Granted, the end result of the 80°F and the 70°F fermented loaves might be the same, but I find it much easier to shape 70°F dough. At 80°F, the dough is often difficult to handle. 70°F is much more forgiving, much less sticky.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Yes, I absolutely agree. I did not mention that point. The 70F loaves are much more forgiving all around.

[@flowerbomb333]

This experiment of yours is amazing, Tom, and boy, do I thank you. You have proved that making sourdough bread does not have to be so stressful. Thank you ..’Riding a motorcycle without a helmet’ is Definately not for me as a person with mobility problems. Slowing it all down is so helpful. Thank you so much. I’m experiment with your low temp method right now ...Oh...and is shaping not necessary?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. I probably would still do final shaping, but you can see here that in some cases the shaping can do more harm than good.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. I probably would still do final shaping, but you can see here that in some cases the shaping can do more harm than good.

[@judithmingram6144]

WOW! WOW! WOW! Such a well designed experiment, such interesting results! How do you keep the 70 degree ambient temp? My ambient temperature changes radically! Do you have a proofing chanber secret? Thank you.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. Great question. It is springtime here in Cleveland so I kept my windows open (it was about 50F outside, and was able to keep my countertop temp at 69-70F. It is difficult to keep that cool temp for long periods. I have also put an ice pack (like you'd put in a cooler) into my warming drawer with my dough (warming off, obviously) and it keeps it at about 68-69 degrees for 6 hours, then I refresh it with another pack. Assuming your room temp is warmer, you could also try using a cooler with a little ice in it.

[@WhatToCookToday]

This is a gem! I never understood why some recipe called for 30% and some 50% and some said must double!! Now I understand it highly depends on the temp. This answers my question perfectly! The linguini test is quite an eye opener! Thank you!!!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! Yes, this was a breakthrough for me. The percent rise is linked to the dough temperature. I use this method all the time now (adjusting % rise for dough temp) and it works perfectly. I generally do a 30-35% rise at 80F/28C and about 65-75% rise at 70F/21C. And adjusted accordingly for all points in between. It also depends on the downstream steps of the process. I do a preshape, bench rest, final shape and 30 minutes rest before cold retard. The dough keeps fermenting during all these steps, until it gets down to fridge temp.

[@WhatToCookToday]

@@thesourdoughjourney thank you for your insight. I will definitely use thus as my guide in my future's bake. I have been skipping preshaping and only final shaping. Some said too much handling of the dough will affect the crumbs. I'm very new to sourdough baking so I'm not sure if I used that information correctly. Do you recommend preshaping, regardless of dough strength, hydration ?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Preshaping is overrated. If your are making one loaf, it is unnecessary. If you are making multiple loaves you need to handle the dough when dividing it so a light preshaping is necessary. The necessity of preshaping depends on how strong the dough is coming out of bulk fermentation and what type of final shaping you plan to do. I have a lot of thoughts on this topic here: thesourdoughjourney.com/faq-shaping/

[@WhatToCookToday]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you!! I've learned so much by watching your videos on different topics!!

[@JoseLausuch]

I loved meeting your crew! You really look like brothers, but with some subtle differences :D :D Interesting experiment, btw!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@JoseLausuch]

@@thesourdoughjourney btw, I like the crumb of 3rd and 4rd loaves, but the ear on the first 2 ... you guys at the IIASSR (International Institute ...) need to investigate and experiment how to combine that gorgeous ear with a more even crumb :)

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks! Check out Loaf #1 here. I think that may be closer to what you’re looking for. Nice fully proofed loaf. I like those as well. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r2qtkGCGbNd_fLM Remember, these loaves also have no shaping. With proper shaping that ear would have popped.

[@JoseLausuch]

@@thesourdoughjourney Yeah, that's right, and also with pre-shaping and shaping, the crumb becomes evener (no wild holes). Thanks!

[@corteltube]

Yay...Tom is back...👀

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks.

[@barrychambers4047]

You really knocked it out of the ballpark, Tom! This was a mind-boggling great experiment, and super entertaining and funny! Thanks! I understand that protein content can prolong fermentation, so I estimated that your total flour protein to be about 12.6%, for anyone wanting to try to match it. I'm curious about your 1-10-10 ratio on your leaven? When did you start doing such steep ratios on the leaven? Usually I'll go no higher than 1-5-5. Do you think this to be even more beneficial? Ciao!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Yes, exactly. 12.64% protein. The 1-10-10 ratio is the standard recipe from Tartine. The idea behind that recipe is to make a very mild, young, low acidic leaven. It is primarily due to the taste profile C. Robertson is going for in that recipe. I've successfully made the recipe with a 1:1:1 feeding of my starter. I don't feel that the leaven build ratio has a material impact on the proofing of the loaves, really more the flavor. 1:5:5 is most common in my experience.

[@barrychambers4047]

@@thesourdoughjourney Ah, thanks Tom. Very interesting. I find your no shaping technique quite interesting. Have you seen JoyRideCoffee's latest shapinge technique? It's quite out of this world, and done with no banneton! kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppa0hp6mr9-Unbc

[@thesourdoughjourney]

@@barrychambers4047 Thanks! Very interesting method of shaping. I like that for small loaves, especially.

[@danielelovetere7521]

Hi tom! I love your scientific approach to making bread. The best youtube channel! I saw every video about this argument but yet I did not understand one thing. How much shoud the final percent rise be ( if we include also preshape, shape, and proof). Actually if I bake at 100% I did not have the overspring I would like. I use sourdough. Thanks

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. Check out the document at the top of this page. thesourdoughjourney.com/tools/ And this article. thesourdoughjourney.com/the-mystery-of-percentage-rise-in-bulk-fermentation/

[@AgileCait]

Tom I love your videos and this one deserves the Nobel Prize! I’m a retired scientist so I really appreciate your scientific method. This video clarified the steps that have been most elusive in my short sourdough career. Do you anticipate doing your own future bulk fermentations at 70 degrees F/21.1111 degrees C? Or have you mastered the overall technique to the point that 80 degrees F/26.6667 degrees C is not problematic?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you so much for the feedback. I really appreciate it. I have been working on an overnight version of Tartine which will be at 70F. That is what led me down this path. I was surprised at how well everything works at that temperature (if you have the time).

[@AgileCait]

@@thesourdoughjourney An overnight version would be fantastic! I think that would work great for a lot of people. I look forward to seeing it! Something that really appeals to me about making sourdough bread is that it feels a lot doing bench work in my lab! Fun! And in the end I get to eat my experiment!

[@karljolejole4549]

Hi Tom! I like your categorization... I belong to the 90 degree group...

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. I was thinking of you when I wrote that!

[@mikelaureanno893]

I love all your videos and appreciate the detail, analysis and science you put into their making. I must say though that your “introduction to the crew” portion of the show was a standout! I thought I was watching and hearing Dan Aykroyd on an old SNL episode. Sorry to digress from the seriousness of sourdough making... A serious question: did I miss something...there was no fold and stretchs..ect..this was a no knead dough, yes?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. The sourdough world needs a little levity. I did 5 stretch and folds per the standard recipe. I think I said this in the “Mixing the Dough segment. I did them off camera before dividing the dough into the four bowls.

[@mikelaureanno893]

@@thesourdoughjourney thanks!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

You might also like this video. It is a comedy. kzbin.info/www/bejne/q4PRfIKQi9KAnck

[@emrearslan1]

Could you prepare a video which studies the relation between protein ratio and windowpane using different flour types with different protein ratio (given that all doughs have the same hydration)? The world really needs this study from your Institute 🙂

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Yes, that would be a great test. I am just making a high protein loaf tonight and am surprised how different the windowpane looks and feels. I’ll add this to my list of topics. Thanks!

[@emrearslan1]

@@thesourdoughjourney Wow! Thanks for response, we are looking forward to it! :) This is an important topic since people don't know whether they're using the right flour or not for their xx% hydration dough recipe. It's almost impossible for a low protein dough to have high hydration levels which made me really suffer when I was a beginner. I wish I knew that in the beginning...

[@missemss]

Thank you very much for the very detailed experiment - it is just the temperature I needed!!! I would like to kindly ask you when did you start to measure the percentage rise? Is is immediately after the fermentolyse? Or is it after the strech/coil fold and putting it in the glass container? Thank you!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I measure it from right after adding the salt. When I add the salt and mix it in, I try to "level" the dough in the vessel and get a good starting point marker. The dough does not rise much until later in the process. Also, if you make the same recipe all the time, get a good marker one time and you'll always know the starting point after that. For me, with the 1,000g flour weight recipe, it mixes up to about 1,500 ml very consistently. So now I always know my starting point and mark my vessel (which has the ml markers which I recommend).

[@thesourdoughjourney]

It can only be measures by putting it in a bowl with ml volume measures on it. Also, in this case, because I know my total recipe mixes up at 1,500 ml from prior bakes, I pour 375 ml into those glass bowls to measure the starting line. Then I add 30%, 50%, 75%, 100% more water to make my percent rise markers for this experiment. Water volume, in ml, is the same a dough volume. So you can always use measured water to mark a bowl with a millilter marking if you don't have them on your bowl.

[@keithgrima5271]

Hi, thanks for this video, came from episode 3(commented regarding rise being the primary variable to watch out for). Still watching this video, but could this also be linked to starters doubling and not tripling? Ofc this is just one variable as container width and stiffness of the starter will affect starter rise. But the gluten relaxation in correlation with the temperature never crossed my mind. Again amazing content.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Yes, I believe the gluten breakdown impacts starter rise as well.

[@keithgrima5271]

@@thesourdoughjourney thanks again for these vids. I have finally solved my under/over fermentation issue. Going purely by feeling is never the way, science will always prevail when aiming for consistency, as one variable changes and you're bk to square one. Keep up the good work will promote these vids as much as I can with struggling/new bakers!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks for the feedback and support. I appreciate it.

[@ayresysarmy4044]

Do any of the videos cover cold bulk fermentation i.e. putting it straight in the fridge and then proofing at room temperature?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Yes. “Overproofed or Underproofed a tale of 4 loaves.” Covers countertop proofing.

[@KTYewTube]

Could you do an experiment with preheating a dutch oven vs not preheating?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I will add that to my list. I think someone may have already done it. Let me check.

[@rosalatalpa]

Found this really really insightful for baking in winter, thanks. Is there a similar hypothesis regarding hydration e.g. lower hydration = slower bulk fermentation = more dough growth? Higher hydration ferments quicker and therefore grows less before bulk fermentation is complete?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank your. I have not done that analysis yet. It is on my list for future experiments. I have only found very minimal anecdotal evidence that higher hydration ferments faster? I know this to be scientifically true but have not seen material differences in times. Needs additional study?

[@rosalatalpa]

@@thesourdoughjourney the reason I ask is that I'm making a focaccia dough using different flour that advises a 75% hydration as maximum so I'm dropping the hydration level. I found the cold temp video useful and gave me the courage to wait for it to rise by 100% but now with the lower hydration I'm wondering if it should be rising by the same amount, more, or less. It certainly seems to be taking longer than usual in my very unscientific test...

[@vittoriabakes]

This was great info, thank you. I do think what also factors in is hydration percentage as well. From my experience a less hydrated dough rises slower than a more hydrated dough. There are so many factors to it, and this is one reason why bread is so amazing. I do have a question. What about when you are baking sandwich loaves? How much to proof the bulk dough before shaping and putting it into the tin to rise even more in the tin? Would you suggest the warmer temperature? An overnight retard in the fridge? I think sourdough sandwich loaves are my confusion point.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Hydration is definitely a factor but I can only test one variable at a time. That is only list for future tests. I don’t really make sandwich loaves so can’t comment on that from personal experience. I would think you would want lower hydration, longer proofing for a soft sandwich loaf with a more closed crumb. Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it.

[@TheDuckofDoom.]

Lower proofing temps on my last loaf just saved me. I had it in my head to make a 500g[flour] loaf, but had actually mixed the old 400g formula, so the total bulk volume I was targeting was about 25% too high. (Should have been a 40% rise, but was really closer to 75%) Anyway it only had the slightest indication of overproofing. I actually started the dough up at 83f and held 78 for a couple hours but decided to take it out of the proofer and let it coast the last couple hours so by the end of bulk it was low 70s.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I’ve been doing slow cool bulk fermentation for the last months. I love it. It have a cold proofer which is awesome for year-round temp control.

[@wissamabichaker2043]

There's a very important factor that was left out from your hypothesis and that is extremely relevant to the difference in rise percentage called for in different recipes: the protein content of the flour. A relatively weak flower (11-12%) cannot handle doubling in size while a strong bread flower (14%+) will be able to make it, simply because the flour contains more proteins for the yeast to feed on before beginning to destroy the gluten network necessary for a light airy crumb.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I agree. I should have mentioned this, but it is the reason I specified exactly what flours I was using in this experiment and gave the average protein content of the blend (12.65). I look into changing that variable in a future experiment. Thanks!

[@patmacrotch5611]

Would you agree, the protease is less active at the higher pH and lower temperature, and the amylase is also less active at lower temperatures? maybe the reason for the less "sweet" smell?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Yes, I’ve just learned more about the amylase “sweet smell” recently. I think you are correct.

[@mark98070]

Do you go directly from the fridge to the oven or will you allow the dough to get back to room temperature before baking?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Directly from fridge to oven.

[@michaeltrees6872]

I just baked a loaf that the bulk rise was for 13 hours, knocked it down, let it rise for 3 hours, the baked. I never in a million years thought it would work. OMG. It was the best loaf I have ever made. So strange. Trying to duplicate it now!! I gotta repeat that! 64 degrees overnight bulk fermentation!! Unreal! My starter was past due for a feeding when I added it, that has got to be the key! Again, trying to repeat this!! Necessity is indeed the mother of invention!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Some of the beat loaves are found by accident. The low temps also really work.

[@ashleycohen7774]

Thank you! I was in a real Through the Looking Glass psychosis when first exploring sourdough and realizing there were these radically different recipes! Lol. Thought I was going plum bonkers. Tartine and flour water salt yeast were my two books.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! “Plum bonkers,” is a good description of how I felt as well when reading recipes. I am still skeptical about the recommended “tripling” volume recommended in Forkish’s FWSY. I’d really need to see that to believe it.

[@alexc6593]

I started with Forkish and am now evolving away. I think it just ends up in a different style of loaf. He also uses levain percentages in a way that others don’t which further complicates an already complex minefield. On a separator note, I’d be really interested in hearing your thoughts on pH measurement as a method of assessing bulk fermentation, although perhaps this is a wormhole that doesn’t need exploring. Thanks for the great videos, they have revolutionised my baking and helped my understand how bad I am in a really helpful and good way. Roll on the journey.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. I've looked into pH meters and actually bought an inexpensive one and tried it for a while. In my experience, the pH measurement did not add anything new to assessing when bulk fermentation is done. And it is difficult to get an accurate measurement without a very expensive meter ($200). And chemists will tell you that the pH doesn't actually measure the acidity. You need to measure TTA, which is much more complicated. It is indeed a wormhole and although I'm interested in it, I don't think it adds a lot of new information to the equation. Thanks!

[@alexc6593]

This is brilliant, thank you, it’s made my day. I cannot wait to tell my french bakery friends this, they swear by pH meters. This has properly tickled me, brilliant. Thank you for the great vids.

[@christophermurray8896]

Tom, Watched whole video today when I was 'sposed to be edging the lawn. Thanks you much. One question lingers for me: was the proofing the same time for each loaf? I.e., did you bake at 4 different times to keep only BF times as the variable? Thanks again, Chris Murray

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. Yes, I timed the bakes so the final proofing time was exactly the same for all loaves. I spaced out the baking times at the same intervals at which the loaves went into the fridge.

[@christophermurray8896]

@@thesourdoughjourney Aha! Thanks, Tom! At one point in your video you mentioned something like: 'Baked them this morning'. And it occurred to me that if those proof times were the reciprocal of the BF timing it could taint results! Another q occurred to me: I have started bagging every banneton during proofing in the frig to keep from drying out from the frig, pulling bag off right b4 scoring and putting in oven. I have dove this out of concern that a drier loaf skin might inhibit rise. But it is a pain in the butt w/ 15 loaves. Your take on this? Thanks again, Tom. You have assisted my learning curve! Chris in Quincy, CA

[@thesourdoughjourney]

@@christophermurray8896 Thank you. I timed all the baking based on the time the loaves went into the fridge. So I delayed when they came out of the fridge to exactly match the intervals they went into the fridge so they all proofed in the fridge for exactly 12 hours. (I'm pretty particular about this because it does make a difference if the final proofing times are not the same). I cover my loaves in the fridge with those elastic food covers. It think it does help to keep the loaves from dehydrating a bit in the fridge, but not sure they need to be sealed airtight in bags. The elastic food covers last a long time. I've been using the same ones for months now.

[@christophermurray8896]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thanks, Tom! Doing 15 loaves of your 70deg F technique right now! Added 1500gr chopped dried fruit [w some rehydration]. Will find and buy the covers for my 9" bannetons! Again, thanks much!

[@Breadhunter2001]

A suggestion for future experiments: Does it really matter when we should add the salt or levain? For example, can we add the salt and levain together, at the very beginning? One more! Is there a discernible difference if we bake loaves with a levain or a straight starter?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Good questions. My gut feel on salt is that the timing makes a difference. Giving the dough 30 minutes before adding salt definitely jump-starts the fermentation. You can feel it in the dough. Leaven vs starter is more complicated. I can make a refreshed starter that is stronger than a weak leaven and vice versa. The benefit of the leaven is that it is a super-feeding (1:10:10) deacidifies the starter and lends itself to higher temperature bulk fermentation (80F) without overproofing.

[@gravitmewara6604]

Thanks again, finally completed the series till here. This is super interesting how capacity of percentage rise changes with change in temperature. I have always struggled with this living in a tropical country like India. So I have few questions. 1. Does cold retard help mellow the sourness or it pronounces the sourness in bread? As bread is fermenting for a longer span of time even though at lower temperature, producing lactic acid and acetic acid too. 2. As you mentioned, cooler temperature fermention, slows the activity of LAB, ergo protease enzyme, does it also mean lesser sour loaf? 3. What is your take on bulk fermenting at lower temperature say 24-25C upto a 40% rise, shaping and then proofing on counter at same temperature - if I am doing so - what further percent of rise should I look at the proofing stage? 4. My main concern is - I want to reap health benefits of long fermentation of sourdough breads but avoid the intense sour taste that comes along, as it is not very palatable for Indian taste buds. 6. Can you talk more about lactic and acetic acid production by LAB and the methods to tame it? 7. Can you make a video where you do room temperature proof experiment and measure the desired percentage rise during proofing before baking? Can I bake a loaf directly after the BF till + shaping + 30 min rest stage? PS. All these questions are mostly correlated and might have been repetitive.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. 1) the cold retard definitely brings out more of the sour flavor. The most sour flavor is achieved after about 3 days in the fridge. 2) in general, longer fermentations at lower temperatures bring out more of the acidic acid (vinegar) flavors. 3) you can do a countertop final proof, but should always still complete bulk fermentation to the target rise. The countertop proof is a separate, “second rise” after shaping. You cannot really measure the percentage rise once the loaf is shaped. The most reliable test is the “poke test.” I don’t use this method very often, but you can see it in many other videos. It is a somewhat reliable test that takes so,e experience to develop a feel for. 4) Check out videos from the Karl de Smedt at the Sourdough Library. He does a great job explaining the interplay of lactic acid and acetic acid bacteria. 5) Check out my video, “Overproofed or Underproofed, a Tale of 4 loaves.” I bake 4 loaves with slightly different bulk fermentation and countertop proofing times.

[@gravitmewara6604]

@@thesourdoughjourney @The Sourdough Journey thanks for the speedy response. :) I have seen Karl's videos and your mentioned video as well. Though I will revisit your video again. Would love to to learn tricks and methods to tame sourness and tang of the bread, want to understand the actual science behind it. I constantly struggle with that even after many experimentations, specially cause I use whole grain flours for nutrition related reasons. When you say longer low temperature fermentation brings out the vinegar-y acetic acid flavour - What range of temperature are we talking here? In your experience what temperature and rise % allows for the lowest degree of sourness/tartness?

[@christophermurray8896]

Tom, intent of my previous question [last night] is that I bake in a wood-fired oven, a dozen to 15 loaves per bake. I am eager to try this 70degF BFerm route and am concerned abt the ideal and outside limits of proofing time. To get oven up to temp takes all day, so I have to bake in the afternoon, unless I was to stay up all night. My thot is to mix dough tomorrow am, proof all day at 70, say to 75%, proof at 35deg F overnight until Weds afternoon, then bake. Easily an 18 hour proofing. So, both a long BFerm and a long proofing... Your, or anyone's, thoughts on this scheme?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Sounds reasonable to me. I think the optimal proofing point for the loaves was probably around 60% rise at 70F (I only tested 50 and 70%). The 75% loaf was beautifully, fully proofed, but started to lose a little of the loaf structure. It was a pretty soft loaf, past what I would normally prefer. A few additional points which are in the video but worth repeating. I initially mixed the dough with 85F water which gave me an initial mixed dough temp of 77F. That temp came down to 70F by the fourth stretch and fold (2.5 hours into BF). Then I kept the temp at 69-70F throughout the whole remaining BF time. If you mix the dough cooler up front it will all take longer. I prefer an initial "jump start" to the fermentation, and that is consistent with the Tartine recipe and I didn't want to change multiple variables. I believe the 70F dough temp is super important. Even if it creeps up to 72-73F I think it will accelerate pretty rapidly. All of the overnight rise recipes I looked at call for overnight temps less than or equal to 70F. The long final proofing time should be fine, especially at fridge temp of 35F. Let me know how it work out. I am very interested in coming up with a modified "overnight" Tartine method.

[@yarnexpress]

I'm thinking this is my sourdough Holy Grail. Some "user error" issues. My warm/cold proofer hadn't arrived yet & it was going to 80F on the other hand at 10AM the room temp was < 65F so pressed ahead. Wanted really strong gluten development because my flour mix was 50% bread, 40% whole wheat, &10% rye & half the dough was for a 2nd shot at olive bread so I autolysed for 1 hr. User error at 6 PM my dough temp had risen to 75F the bulk ferment was complete the dough had risen 30% & 40% did I get busy shaping & cold retarding? No, I ate dinner & came back at 8 PM. Half the dough had risen 75% the other half 100%. Had a hard time shaping & today a hard time scoring. Made a non-olive loaf very good oven spring but only a partial ear. The flavor of the flour mix was what I as after & ditto the crumb. Even crumb & no big holes which is what I want for a general purpose loaf. No signs of over proofing. Haven't cut the olive loaves but not optimistic. Going to dial this in using my proofer. Then I'll be testing the 2 stage bulk ferment. Thank you very much for all the time & effort you put into these videos!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. Good luck!

[@yarnexpress]

@@thesourdoughjourney Luck?! The olive loaf is edible but I'm done with it. Olives are not cheap--the combo is meh. Olives & bread--better solution spread a tapenade of classic country loaf.

[@barrychambers4047]

Sure do miss your most excellent tutorials, Tom. You must have gotten your old job back, or something. Take care!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I took some time off this summer but will be starting up with new videos in September. I have a lot of new topics coming this fall/winter.

[@barrychambers4047]

@@thesourdoughjourney Look forward to them, Tom. Thanks!

[@bluemaki1]

This is why my sourdough always get over proofing. I live in a warm climate country, 30~33 Celsius, and most of the recipe asked for doubling in size.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Yes, it can never double at 30C in my experience, I’ve even done 20% rise at 30C.

[@bluemaki1]

I've watched many many sourdough related channel, I even joined some bakers group. None of them provide me the details I need, this channel is the ONLY channel I need. Thanks Tom!

[@goattactics]

This helped me a lot, thank you. I've been searching for mild acidity and finally achieved if after watching this video. I start with warm water and a let the dough ferment on its own timeline at room temp. The dough rose by 50% and did a 8 hour retard. Nice even fermentation and great taste. I don't know if you've done this or even think its a good idea but I like to taste the leaven until the acidity is what I'm looking for before I start mixing.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. I love the overnight slow rises at 70F in winter. Makes great bread. I don’t taste my leaven. It is still considered “raw” flour which should not be eaten.

[@ms.j5821]

Hey Tom I can't find a handy table I believe you put together that charted dough temps with starter percentages bulk vs proofing times. It was pink yellow, blue and green

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Sounds like the end of episode 6? At about 1:16:50 mark. kzbin.info/www/bejne/enqTn6yHpdatpbs

[@TheJames12701]

Hi Tom trying to send you a picture of my sourdough, I'm a beginner to SD and would like your comments, my bulk fermentation needs work I think, what do you say mate?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Just replied to your email.

[@corteltube]

Hahaha..”speeding on a motor cycle with no helmet”..yep, that would be me...this test really helps out with scheduling a loaf because you can kind of chose which method would work better for a particular schedule as mine changes often...I tend to really stress about over proofing, so the 70 degree might calm my nerves a bit and free me up for a social life ...not to mention keep family members from committing me. 🙃

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. I am the same way. Always trying to push the time a bit with warmer temperature and fearing overproofing all the time. But 90F is really living on the edge. 😊

[@helentate9659]

You didn’t do a final shape with these loaves, any reason?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

In this whole series of videos, I don't do preshaping or final shaping because those steps can introduce irregularities into the crumb that can be confused with under or overproofing. I'm trying to isolate the impact of fermentation only. So then I can compare these 4 loaves and all the loaves in all the other videos, solely based on the ferementation effect alone. I think I stated this earlier in the video, but maybe I did not in this one. (And, the loaves look surprisingly good for no shaping!)

[@helentate9659]

Thank you Tom, that makes sense. I really appreciate all the work you are doing at the International Centre for the Advancement of Sourdough Science ( Cleveland, Ohio). I’m seeing real improvement in my bread, even if I still have a lot to learn.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it. Also check out my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com

[@helentate9659]

I’ve binge watched most of them already!

[@cutabove9046]

Tom, you might try an experiment where you produce two loafs from the same dough. The difference is you'll degas one completely and handle the dough on the other as you usually do. I think you'll find most of the difference in your crumb structure is a result of your dough handling not the amount of time in bulk fermentation.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Not sure I’m following what you’re recommending. What dough handling am I doing here? I’m not doing any preshaping or final shaping?

[@cutabove9046]

@@thesourdoughjourney What you do with your dough after bulk fermentation is what I call dough handling. I'm suggesting you degas the dough fully after bulk fermentation prior to pre-shaping. From what I see you handle the dough very delicately so as not to degas it. Also, at this stage in your baking education you're trying to compensate for the fixed final proofing time of the recipe you follow by altering the time of bulk fermentation. This is an exercise in frustration. The primary reason for bulk fermentation is to develop flavor everything else is secondary. Once you get to the point where you are doing multi-day sourdough baking you'll be altering the flavor profile by altering the balance of lactic and acidic acid by varying the hydration, time, and temperature of your starter not the mixed dough. Enjoy the journey.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks for the clarification. My experimentation actually started there in my series “In Search of Open Crumb” where I experimented with different pre-shaping and final shaping techniques (including degassing) on four loaves from the same batch of dough. The results of those experiments did not produce significant difference in the crumb, which led me to this series where I’ve found the difference in bulk fermentation to have a significant impact on the crumb. However, this is within the rigid confines of the Tartine recipe at a specific hydration, flour blend and bulk fermentation temperature range. In each of my videos I generally only change one variable at a time to try to isolate a specific impact. You may be interested in my series “Tartine Bread: Art and Alchemy” where I change multiple variables at once, including different dough handling techniques and a countertop proof after final shaping before an overnight cold retard. It is a more interesting series for advanced bakers, but many subscribers prefer the more controlled scientific experiments where I only change one variable at a time. The reason I’m skipping pre and final shaping here is to isolate and analyze the impact of bulk fermentation, not as a recommended baking technique. So in this series, “When is Bulk Fermentation Done,” I’m trying to isolate one variable at a time, and strictly follow the Tartine recipe and method, which is notoriously difficult for beginners to master due to the warm bulk fermentation temperature (78-82F / 25.5-28C). Here are the two videos on dough handling - kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJOyqpysnah_apI kzbin.info/www/bejne/maWmf2p7lNCqpKc And here is the Art and Alchemy Series kzbin.info/www/bejne/eaKxZZyPd9SkmtE

[@cutabove9046]

@@thesourdoughjourney Tom, thanks for all the information. I've been baking mostly rye breads for over 45 years. Unlike Chad that believes in young starters I've done years of experimenting by varying various elements of my starters to radically alter the amounts of lactic and acidic acid to see how their change affects the flavor profile of my loaves. My basic starter originates from the Detmolder method which is a radical departure from Chad's thinking on starters. Oh, by the way I like your channel. I believe you provide very valuable advise to someone starting out. If you want to review the experiments of another You Tube sourdough baker I'd recommend you look at The Food Geek. He has done many of the same experiments as you with results that might surprise you.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks for the feedback and info. I have seen a few of the FoodGeek experiments but will check out more. Thank would appreciate your feedback on the “Art and Alchemy” series if you can find the time to watch all 5 parts. That was still only 5 months into my journey but feel like that series was some of my best work. It is still focused on beginner to intermediate bakers and is very much still focused on the Tartine recipe and method. Thanks again.

[@neil_chazin]

The first time I was baking sourdough in a warm kitchen (77F as I recall) it was scary - I barely caught it in time... and I missed my cold (68-70F) kitchen. I’ve started having to fit the fermentation Into a smaller window and keeping to the Tartine temp range has been helpful to fit it into a 5 or so hours. I do ~50% when doing 70F and that’s where I’ve had my best ears...

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback!

[@cakewhite]

Was wondering if you could explain the tape on the bowls? Are they gages to show rise in the rounded bowls? How do you make them? Thanks

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Good question. Yes, those tape strips are measuring the volume in milliliters which is the only accurate way to measure the percentage rise when you do not have a perfectly straight sided vessel. Based on making this recipe all the time, I know that my initial mixed dough volume is 375ml in each bowl. So depending on the experiment, I measure and make tape markers by putting blue tape on the bowl, then marking each target line by pouring water into each bowl and marking the water level. In this experiment, my markers were: 0% - 375ml 30% - 488ml 50% - 563ml 75% - 656ml 100% - 750ml I’ve also used straight walled chemistry beakers in the past, but it is difficult to remove the dough without degassing it too badly, so I switched to these bowls.

[@cakewhite]

Thanks. So I guess the next time I make my usual 600g loaf I will make a line as soon as it goes into the bowl and that will be my guide. Appreciate the answer. Love the videos!

[@cakewhite]

I know it’s in there somewhere but can you tell me how many stretch and folds before letting it rise the rest of the way? 4 or 5? Every 1/2 hour? Thanks

[@thesourdoughjourney]

@@cakewhite Yes I described in the Mixing the Dough section but did not show it. I mix the flour, water and leaven, let that rest for 30 minutes. Then add the salt and let that rest for 30 minutes. Then I do 5 stretch and folds at 30 minute intervals. I did this on the full batch of dough, then divided the dough into the 4 smaller bowls for the remaining percent rise.

[@missemss]

@@thesourdoughjourney how do you know the dough volume (375ml)? From your recipe flour+water+starter=1,950÷4=487.5. How did you calculate 375ml? Thank you

[@Levrifon]

Hello ! As always thank you for those precise informations about temperatures and comparing loaf, this video helped be to have better results I was waiting too short HOWEVER ! I noticed the the hydration % change totally my results, my first loaf was at 68% of hydration and went quite good no ears but good burst and height, I did one bread today, same ingredients, same waiting time but 72% hydration and now it's very flat So I don't quite understand why the bread is becoming flat, is this because the more water the longer you have to wait or that the dough cannot handle such high hydration (I have only 50g of whole wheat and 50g of semi-whole wheat for a 550g total flour bread) I think that a video with same temp/same time but differents hydration levels can give you interesting comparisons Thanks again :) !

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. Great question. Some flours just cannot handle higher hydration and they will start to flatten out. Higher hydration loaves can also ferment faster but typically it is because of the flour. However, 72% is not considered to be very high hydration. What type of flour are you using?

[@Levrifon]

@@thesourdoughjourney Hello ! thanks I don't know the exact translation of flour in english but for a 500g bread I use : - 250g of classical flour (T65 in french) - 150g of semi-complete flour (T80) - 50g of complete flour (T110) - 50g of integral flour (T150) the one with the most wheat fibers I was also guessing a too long kneating part, but in all cases, I don't have this very stretched window pane effect you have in your videos, it tears before, maybe the flour is "poor" in gluten Thanks for your answer :)

[@thesourdoughjourney]

The windowpane is the best test for gluten strength. If you do not have strong gluten, this would explain the flatter loaves.

[@Levrifon]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thanks for clear answers I will look into this if I can find the strength somewhere or to switch to others flour !

[@corteltube]

I wish I could hit the like button twice...why is there no option for that??

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I was really in my element here. Bread, Science, Education and Humor.

[@corteltube]

@@thesourdoughjourney Yes...we need a little humor with the unpredictable/predictable nature of this “beast”😂🤣. I am still learning, but all your teachings sure help me not do stupid stuff in the kitchen....I am nothing if not determined.

[@gioiosa54]

if you use 200 grams of leaven in recipe ,,how much do you typically keep going as your starter ??

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I keep about 100-125g per day. 20g carryover and 50g water + 50g flour. Sometimes less.

[@gioiosa54]

@@thesourdoughjourney Hi Tom,, with 125 grams of starter how do you achieve 20% inoculation and have left over starter for next bake , ?? I usually end up with about 1800 grams weight all told divided in two loaves at 900 each ?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Sorry, I thought you were just asking about my daily maintenance. When I plan to bake I always make a leaven. I take 10-20g of starter and add 90g flour and 90g water for the recipe.

[@gioiosa54]

@@thesourdoughjourney Hi Tom so how long does it take to mature the 20+90+90 =200

[@thesourdoughjourney]

About six hours at my kitchen temp.

[@BobACNJ]

Tried the Low and Slow yesterday and today with Gold Medal Bread Flour, because that is what SHE brough home...HAHAHAHA! That flour could not make a sourdough Tortilla. I think she won't bring that home again. At least I hope not. Good thing I like Pizza...and really flat breads.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Some flours can’t handle high hydration.

[@BobACNJ]

@@thesourdoughjourney It has only 3% Protein...ouch.

[@xijoe5957]

Tom, are you sure that it is the science only to guide the path of bread development? Isn't there any spiritual or religious power influcing the hole thing?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Good question. I cover some of the less scientific aspects of breadmaking in my “Art and Alchemy” series.

[@cociman7365]

Love your videos. Watched this series from the beginning. Would love to see a video trying to find the best/optimal % rise for this recipe without the cold retard. I think it would give us a good baseline to use if, for instance, you want a short retard. My guess/hypothesis is 60-70% rise...

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you so much. I’ve done am few countertop proofing experiments as part of other videos and the dough really moves along quickly. I don’t think I’d do more than 30% rise in bulk fermentation if I were going to finish with a countertop proof. But it all depends how short your “short” final is. If I did 60% bulk, I’d do a 1 or 1.5 hour countertop final proof. I’ll add this to my list of experiments. I’ll pick up with new experiments this fall. Too warm to be baking all summer!