When the Western Genre Perished, 1968-75

The Western died in the 1970s. It went from the primary genre of Hollywood production, making almost a third of yearly movies at its peak, to a relic of a bygone era requiring revival for new productions. The Western was felled from its high-horse. What murdered it? The direct murderer does not matter, for as one Western about a mistaken murder said, “This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.” The genre was fueled by the American frontier myth, which also propelled American exceptionalism. As the historical theory behind the frontier myth crumbled in the wake of great social upheaval, especially when related to the American Indian Movement, the driver of Westerns died, resulting in the Western’s demise. From 1968-75, a steady transformation in the genre happened as it struggled to maintain a grip on cultural relevance. Taking five films from the period, the content of those films shows this transformation as Westerns tried and failed to cope with the loss of the frontier myth.
------------------------------------------------------------
Due to it not fitting here, see pinned comment for bibliography and errata
------------------------------------------------------------
related episodes:
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid: • Butch Cassidy and the ...
Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee: • Bury my Heart at Wound...
The Greatest Showman: • The Greatest Showman |...
Hostiles: • Hostiles | Based on a ...
Walker (1987): • Walker (1987) | Based ...
The Witch (2015): • The Witch | Based on a...
The Son (2017): • The Son (2017) | Based...
The History of Las Vegas, Nevada: • The History of Las Veg...
The History of California: • The History of California
Rise of the New Left (1968): • Rise of the New Left (...
The Robin Hood complex - Social banditry theory and myth making: • The Robin Hood complex...
The Revenant: • The Revenant | Based o...
Historical Orthodoxy, Revisionism, and Post-Revisionism: • Historical Orthodoxy, ...
The Frontier Thesis - Frederick Jackson Turner and American exceptionalism: • The Frontier Thesis - ...
------------------------------------------------------------
SUBSCRIBE FOR MORE VIDEOS:
www.youtube.com...
Support the channel through PATREON:
/ cynicalhistorian
LET'S CONNECT:
Subreddit: / cynicalhistory
Facebook: / cynicalcypher88
Discord: / discord
Twitter: / cynical_history

[@CynicalHistorian]

See replies for corrections and bibliography, but here are some related episodes: Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid: kzbin.info/www/bejne/n4rYYnhunsmkhZI Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee: kzbin.info/www/bejne/anTaf5qNeLh0b5I The Greatest Showman: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bYHGq3aArcqLmtk Hostiles: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y5mxgaKsls5gaM0 Walker (1987): kzbin.info/www/bejne/eqKydGWcad-Ym5Y The Witch (2015): kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHiweWCioJWGo7c The Son (2017): kzbin.info/www/bejne/hajQdZmkbpqGp5o The History of Las Vegas, Nevada: kzbin.info/www/bejne/d6q0pYSlnNSXj9k The History of California: kzbin.info?list... Rise of the New Left (1968): kzbin.info/www/bejne/nH3bgYiZj7B5q7s The Robin Hood complex - Social banditry theory and myth making: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jIjCl3iap9ughas The Revenant: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qKmsnGeVj6pjrpY Historical Orthodoxy, Revisionism, and Post-Revisionism: kzbin.info/www/bejne/roKqpGabjt16iNk The Frontier Thesis - Frederick Jackson Turner and American exceptionalism: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZKYfmN4bNiVa7c

[@CynicalHistorian]

*corrections* 1:30 - lol, misspelled uses 2:34 , 32:40 - that's supposed to say "Jeremiah Johnson," not "Jedediah Smith" (thx TxBuzzkill) 8:15 - "Lazarinthine" isn't a word (yet?), more like "Lazarus-like" (thx Topcliffe)

[@CynicalHistorian]

*Selected Bibliography * Agnew, Jeremy. _The Old West in Fact and Film: History Versus Hollywood._ Jefferson, N.Car.: McFarland and Company, 2012. Aquila, Richard. _The Sagebrush Trail: Western Movies and Twentieth-Century America._ Tucson: The University of Arizona Press, 2015. Barta, Tony, ed. _Screening the Past: Film and the Representation of History._ Edited by Tony Barta. Westport, Conn.: Praeger Publishers, 1998. Berger, Thomas. _Little Big Man._ New Ed. 1964; Dial Trade Paperback, 2005. Bolton, Eugene Herbert. _Bolton and the Spanish Borderlands._ Edited and Introduction by John Francis Bannon. Norman: University of Oklahoma, 1964. Brown, Dee. _Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West._ New York: Henry Holt and Company, 1970. Campbell, Neil. _Post-Westerns: Cinema, Region, West._ Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 2013. Cypher. “Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee | Based on a True Story.” _The Cynical Historian_ (7 February 2019), KZbin, not yet released: kzbin.info/www/bejne/anTaf5qNeLh0b5I. Deloria Jr., Vine. _Custer Died for Your Sins: An Indian Manifesto._ New York: Avon Books, 1969. Elliot, Michael. _Custerology: The Enduring Legacy of the Indian Wars and George Armstrong Custer._ Chicago, Ill.: University of Chicago Press, 2007. Fixico, Donald. “Federal and State Policies and American Indians.” In _A Companion to American Indian History,_ ed. Philip J. Deloria. New York: Blackwell Publishers, 2002. 379-396. Fulton, Maurice. _History of the Lincoln County War._ Tucson: University of Arizona Press, 1968. French, Philip. _Westerns: Aspects of a Movie Genre and Westerns Revisited._ Rev. Ed. 1973; Manchester, UK: Carcanet Press Limited, 2005. Garrett, Pat and Ash Upson. _The Authentic Life of Billy the Kid._ New Edition. 1882; Auckland, New Zealand: The Floating Press, 2009. Hatch, Thom. _The Last Outlaws: The Lives and Legends of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid._ New York: New American Library, 2013. Ebook. Hittell, Theodore H. _The Adventures of James Capen Adams, Mountaineer and Grizzly Bear Hunter of California._ San Francisco, Cal.: Towne and Bacon Printers and Publishers, 1860. Hobsbawm, Eric. _Primitive Rebels: Studies in Archaic Forms of Social Movement in the 19th and 20th Centuries._ New York: WW Norton & Company, 1965. Hobsbawm, Eric. _Bandits._ Rev. ed. New York: The New Press, 2000. Jackson, Helen Hunt. _A Century of Dishonor: A Sketch of the United States Government’s Dealings with some of the Indian Tribes._ Boston, Mass.: Roberts Brothers, 1881. Jackson, Helen Hunt. _Ramona._ New Ed. 1884; New York: Grosset and Dunlap, 1912. Kehr, Dave. “How to See | Westerns: Is the Genre Dead?” _The Museum of Modern Art_ (23 March 2018), KZbin, accessed 30 January 2018: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ioDIfnuud8yGntU. Limerick, Patricia Nelson. _The Legacy of Conquest: The Unbroken Past of the American West._ New York: W. W. Norton, 1987. Mintz, Steven and Randy Roberts, eds. _Hollywood’s America: United States History Through its Films._ St. James, N.York: Brandywine Press, 1993. Nelson, Andrew Patrick. _Still in the Saddle: The Hollywood Western, 1969-1980._ Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 2015. Nelson, Andrew Patrick editor. _Contemporary Westerns: Film and Television since 1990._ Lanham, Mass.: The Scarecrow Press, 2013. Nolan, Frederick. _The Lincoln County War: A Documentary History._ Rev. Ed. 1992; Santa Fe, N.Mex.: Sunstone Press, 2009. Perry, Barbara. “From Ethnocide to Ethnoviolence: Layers of Native American Victimization.” _Contemporary Justice Review_ 5, no. 3 (2002): 231-247. Rodman, Paul W. editor. _Historians and the American West._ Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1983. Rollins, Peter C. and John E. O’Connor, eds. _Hollywood’s West: The American Frontier in Film, Television, and History._ Lexington: The University of Kentucky Press, 2005. Slotkin, Richard. _Regeneration through Violence: The Mythology of the American Frontier, 1600-1860._ Middletown, Conn.: Wesleyan University Press, 1973. Slotkin, Richard. _The Fatal Environment: The Myth of the Frontier in the Age of Industrialization, 1800-1890._ New York: Atheneum Books, 1985. Slotkin, Richard. _Gunfighter Nation: The Myth of the Frontier in Twentieth-Century America._ New York: Atheneum Books, 1992. Smith, Henry Nash. _Virgin Land: The American West as Symbol and Myth._ Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1950. Smith, Sherry L. _Hippies, Indians, and the Fight for Red Power._ Oxford, UK: Oxford University Press, 2012. Thorp, Raymond W. and Robert Bunker. _Crow Killer: The Saga of Liver-Eating Johnson._ Rev. Ed. 1958; Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 2015. Turner, Frederick Jackson. “The Significance of the Frontier in American History.” In _Rereading Frederick Jackson Turner,_ commentary by John Mack Faragher, 31-60. New York: Henry Holt and Company, 1994. Utley, Robert M. _High Noon in Lincoln: Violence on the Western Frontier._ Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1987. Utley, Robert M. _Billy the Kid: A Short and Violent Life._ Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1989. Varner, Paul, ed. _Westerns: Paperback Novels and Movies from Hollywood._ Cambridge, UK: Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2007.

[@lonjohnson5161]

Cypher, you use the word "myth" frequently in this documentary. As a person outside of academic history circles, the term is somewhat unclear to me, although it did invoke several ideas. It seems like an approximation of what you mean is, "A lie that resembles the truth." As this isn't the only place where you refer to myth, I was hoping you would consider making a video (probably a diatribe) expanding on what you mean by the word.

[@machetedonttweet1343]

Yo Cypher! Well done sir, If your academic aspirations don't work out Ken Burns is getting pretty old and might want a protege. I watched the entire thing.

[@williamkraemer8338]

This is really a fine piece of genre criticism. Bravo !

[@Kbumb001]

I lived through that period: Astronauts killed the western. We no longer wanted to be cowboys, we wanted to be space travelers. The westerns after 1960 became modern adult movies with a western veneer.

[@downsjmmyjones101]

Sometimes I wonder if I give too much credit to the Cold War for shaping nearly everything in the 20th century but damn, it sure does look like the space race with the soviets had a massive impact on American culture.

[@bertilliozephyrsgate6196]

The spy genre took a bite out of the Western as well. Some producers did chance upon a show that fused the two, and it was very successful for a while: The Wild Wild West.

[@naftalibendavid]

I remember getting space suits with my brother for the holidays. We put up our spurs.

[@khnopff71]

Space Travelers are just cowboys with big, metal horses. The western didn't die so much as the mythos was transferred to a new 'frontier,' full of expansion, possibility, and mystery. Think about people talking about putting a colony on the Moon or Mars. That's basically like starting up a town at the edge of the Frontier. Aliens are the new 'Indians' (Native Planetarians) only its far more likely we will be the ones to die of astral smallpox than the aliens. Just imagine Clint Eastwood in a space suit giving a spock salute to an alien race on a distant planet and the difference between The Outlaw Josey Wales and The Space Explorer Neil Stargate will become apparent. The cowboys just have 'fancier' horses now.

[@SirBlackReeds]

Your real name is Stinky Pete, isn't it? ;)

[@BarberJ95]

Wow, as an indigenous person who loves history I learnt things I hadn’t known prior. This is splendid you covered all of this and summarized it all so well. Thank you so much! Glad to see a see a serious and sober eyed recollection of this history. Also finally a summary of Nixon’s Native American policy which forever confuses me and weirdly has me considered him a great president despite it all.

[@eldorados_lost_searcher]

Nixon is a complicated fellow, that's for sure. The question is his intent. Was he bowing to social pressures for political gain, or genuinely trying to help for political gain?

[@BarberJ95]

@@eldorados_lost_searcher I can’t tell and wish there was a clear answer. That also compels me to ask. Dues it matter? Like regardless of his rationale he still took really beneficial actions that I myself am grateful for. I wish he could’ve know though. He really is one of the most tragic and bewildering politicians in American history. He was his own worst enemy.

[@archer1949]

@@BarberJ95 Nixon also suggested the concept of Universal Basic Income as a way to dismantle the bureaucratic money pit that was the welfare system. As a Democrat who leans on the Social Democratic side of the party, I find Nixon to be a living contradiction.

[@tankiehatingsocialist678]

"Natives" that came here from Asia

[@TheWazzoGames]

@@tankiehatingsocialist678 Natives that came from Asia during the last ice age. Your point? For reference, the indo-aryans invaded Europe WAY WAY AFTER then. Using that logic, let’s stop calling Europeans European.

[@davidmcleod6032]

For me John Wayne's final goodbye in The Shootist closed the western era.

[@LadyTylerBioRodriguez]

Its incredibly fitting, although it wasnt meant to be his last film. They say that... but the main character is a legendary western hero dying of lung cancer who interacts with several people he has known for decades as he prepares to die. One of the guys in the final shootout was actually a friend John Wayne had met in the army. The ending even echoes the shootout in Shane, the most mythical of all mythical western films. Its so goddamn perfect for a last John Wayne film its not even funny.

[@richardyoung4616]

@@LadyTylerBioRodriguez Since when was that coward John Wayne in the Army??

[@63DW89A]

+David McLeod The Shootist was one of Wayne's best. But far from ending the Western, that movie ushered in a new era of extremely authentic frontier stories that require more artistic effort to make. The Shootist was beautifully filmed and the clothing, settings and atmosphere were all historically authentic into the smallest details. The "Western" isn't made as often, but when a "Western" is made today, great care is taken in authenticity while filming. (Modern Examples: Deadwood, True Grit, Hostiles, Dances With Wolves, Unforgiven, Lonesome Dove, and the very recent The Legend Of Buster Scruggs). I was very impressed with the Cohen Brothers story anthology work on "Buster Scruggs". The first story was a comedic, but respectful homage to the Hollywood Singing Cowboy, while the other stories were authentic representations of wagon trains, gold rushes, outlaws, etc. The Western is far from dead; the genre is just made much more carefully today with amazing attention to detail that did not exist during the early "churn out 25 Westerns a week" days in Hollywood!

[@LadyTylerBioRodriguez]

@@63DW89A The digging for gold story in particular stood out for its almost educational depiction of pan mining. Good stuff.

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

​@@richardyoung4616 I believe he served in some acting or entertainment outfit? John Wayne would go on to say that he wanted to enlist with the grunts but was stopped by some bigwig types and told he'd support the war effort better as an actor. He would say that though, wouldn't he? Whatever the truth I have run into occasional bitterness directed at John Wayne as a figure by individual servicemen. Bitterness and mocking - not all the time but it was extant to a degree during the war, likely a product of the sardonic temperament of the infantryman and young men in other similarly dangerous and taxing roles. Bet there was a lot of John Wayne playing whenever they could catch a showing behind the lines in some tent or other - if I were some fatigued 19-year old, and the only diversion was a flick where John Wayne is the ultimate badass and doin' the thing and shootin' the guns and getting the girl (especially getting the girl), I would spit a lot of venom his way, too. He gets the girl and I get my balls blown off. It's a hell of a look. On the other hand, my great-grandad drove amtracs in the Pacific and he idolized the man, and the Western in general. Think it was a product of his background as an immigrant, though. A way of uh, "assimilating" in an environment where he would've otherwise been "the enemy" for a time - "over-compensating" a lotta folks would call it these days. "Yee-haw, I cowboy too! Look-a at ma HAT! I hold a whole ten-a gallons in it if I want! Madonn!"

[@TheRageaholic]

You're forgetting a more crass, practical reason: Cost. In the early years of the Western, filming permits were a relative rarity. As the genre ascended in importance... well... look up the cost of filming a Western in Tucson, AZ. The states caught on to the money being left on the table and started charging through the roof for filming permits. The industry put up with it while the genre was still huge... but once Italy's Spaghetti Westerns started glomming on, making comparable sums by filming in cheaper locations like the deserts of Spain...? The Western's days were numbered in America. This is why - even when there IS a modern Western - it's usually filmed in Alberta, Canada or even in Europe. These places charge little to nothing to woo directors to their locations.

[@nlpnt]

For that matter, a lot of the privately owned "movie ranches", particularly the ones in the Southern California studio zone became far more valuable as real estate for housing as suburban expansion kept going from the '50s through the '80s.

[@williamolliges2622]

Didn’t Heavens Gate bankrupt United Artists?

[@williamolliges2622]

Clearly I posted my last before watching the video.

[@SirBlackReeds]

Aren't most Westerns nowadays filmed in New Mexico? Also, cost is actually a weird issue. Theoretically speaking, Westerns should be, and often are, quite cheap to make. Buffalo Boys, cost the equivalent of $2.2 million, The Kid (2019) cost $7 million, Bone Tomahawk cost nearly $2 million, The Ballad of Lefty Brown cost $8 million, Wind River cost $11 million, Hell or High Water cost only $12 million. On the other hand, one of the reasons Westerns can cost get $40-50 million is because it's not exactly cheap to build an entire town. Then you have films like Cowboys & Aliens, which racked up quite the price tag due to all the VFX work that was involved, and The Lone Ranger which cost so damn much because of that train scene, the VFX work, and the price of building sets.

[@camiblack1]

@@williamolliges2622 people say that, but it was sort of the scapegoat, like E.T. gets for the video game crash of 1984. It'd been the loss of a lot of their more popular acquisitions in decades before (like RKO) thanks to being just a few years younger than Steamboat Willy. As well as getting stuck in genre ruts, which is great at heights, but disastrous when the bubble bursts.

[@jupiterkansas]

Excellent overview on the death of the Western but I'd argue that it wasn't replaced by sci-fi movies but by urban cop shows, with Clint Eastwood taking the lead with Dirty Harry. They were basically westerns in the city with lots of action and gunfights. Which leads me to a theory of mine that another reason for the death of the western was changing demographics. At the beginning of the 20th century, 75% of the population was rural. By the end of the century, it was only 25%. Most people - esp. movie ticket buyers - had moved into cities and suburbs and lost touch with and interest in the rural life depicted in Westerns. I wonder if this was mentioned in any of your research or if it was all just the eroding mythos and revisionism. Also not mentioned was the over-abundance of westerns on television with shows like Bonanza and Gunsmoke. That's an area where I can see big budget sci-fi movies offering something you couldn't get at home outside of the cheesiness of Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica.

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

It's not necessarily a dichotomy. I think the urban grit genre appealed to the sense of "frontier justice" encapsulated in the Western while something like Star Wars appealed to the over-all aesthetic and themes of both the Western - and ironically - the samurai genre.

[@SarahElisabethJoyal]

The introduction to my copy of The Godfather argues that Mafia stories became the new American myth. I feel like that's an audience that would overlap pretty well with the gritty cop story.

[@swissarmyknight4306]

"Previously, on Justified"

[@williamt.sherman9841]

it cannot be stress enough about the changing demographics as well as technology in general it also explains why 50s children were the last link in the chain since they did not have a strong personal connection with the old west. People in the 1920s and 1930s all had ties with the old west many had lived it others were children of those who lived it. I think the strongest comparison can be made to ww2 films to an extent in the sense that many had a direct connection to it (having lived through that era) and many were connected by parents or grandparents who lived it. I think in the same way the western genre will play out the WW2 will also as later generations loose a personal connection with it.

[@williamt.sherman9841]

@@matthewbittenbender9191 when I talk "personal connection" that does not mean they had to be actively living in the West. I said "ww2" in regards to "people" not men even though 99.9% of the Americans involved were Men. The reason is that women and children indirectly were exposed to WW2. If I were to compare "the old west" to "ww2" then the "east" would be similar to "the home front" in fact I think the "home front" often plays a bigger role in the myth making since this is where the majority of the people live. its also where the books are written, where most of the money is, where children are raised and where a narrative is formed.

[@donweismiller2318]

I can't believe I watched this in one sitting. Mighty fine production, pilgrim.

[@robertmoore7153]

I did the same.

[@Inignot12]

This is probably the best piece you've done so far, I'm thoroughly impressed

[@milesmayhem5440]

The Western isn’t dead. It’s just laying low. But it does pop up from time to time.

[@cristianvillanueva8782]

Indeed, Django was the best we've gotten as of recently. I'm okay with that. It was a great movie.

[@aikidragonpiper71]

Tombstone in 1993 was awesome.

[@Linnnaeus]

Especially recently. Both Rango and RDRI came out on 2010 and since then we've had Diango, The Magnificent Seven, RDRII, and The Ballad of Buster Scruggs being the notable ones

[@otakonjunkie]

Well, that was thorough. I didn't know what to expect, but you clearly laid out the death of the mythology, shifting perspective (optimism to pessimism) and changing cultural views. Thank you for posting this.

[@stephenamsden2781]

Great job on a complex subject. Born 75 yrs ago I have lived through much of shits you mentioned. To some extent I relived my thoughts and feelings as I watched your video. It made me reflect on nature and fruit of myth and also my part in both its perpretation and evolution. This is way to do history, evocative, challenging, and engaging.

[@skchen83]

This is excellent. As a soon-to-be 60 year old AP history teacher, I live through this and found it exceptional analysis.

[@MatthewMcVeagh]

68-75 is my favourite period of film history. It was after screen acting had stopped being stagey, but before the advent of blockbusters.

[@danielyoung6778]

Only in American cinema there's still incredible stuff all across the world made constantly literally every year and smaller films that aren't Hollywood crap in American cinema still consistently makes great stuff. It's just a matter of knowing where to look which is easier than ever nowadays.

[@bqkmg2037]

JAWS came out in the summer1975 which is the very first blockbuster of blockbusters that followed...

[@MatthewMcVeagh]

@@bqkmg2037 Yes. That's why I date the preceding period to end in 1975.

[@bqkmg2037]

@@MatthewMcVeagh Disagree with you " KID" it didnt end in 1975...western TV movies and were still at its peak in the late 1970s...example : How the west was won..Little house on the pairie (tv show) Centennial John Wayne did 2 or 3 films in the late 70s before his death in 1979...Clint Eastwood/ Charles Bronson was still making a few westerns too...so yes second half of the 70s (1975 to 1979 )still produce a westerns...it died in the 1980s...1990s revive back alittle...1930s thru 1970s western genre era....

[@MatthewMcVeagh]

@@bqkmg2037 "KID" I wasn't talking about Westerns anyway, the video is.

[@garysara969]

Narrator you are right on the mark. I am 68 years of age & grew up with the TV & I remember asking my father when I was a kid, why does all the TV channels have so many westerns & I am getting bored with them. There where more TV westerns, than I am going to name, why can't Hollywood do other TV programs? My father could not answer. Approx. the mid 1970's TV did add some new stuff starting with 'All in the Family", which was a big hit.

[@thomasking1490]

Really good. edit: Not everyone can carry historical/docu stuff of this length... Some great channels can get lost at 15 minutes +. But this had good structure, good argument on a good point. Kept moving, but not losing detail.

[@LadyTylerBioRodriguez]

The chronology of the western somewhat reminds me of the Viking Age, especially the end point. The Viking Age technically ended with the death of King Harold at Stamford Bridge in 1066, but really the age had been more or less over for quite sometime before it. Heavans Gate is the western Stanford Bridge.

[@wratched]

Harold died at Hastings, not Stanford Bridge.

[@LadyTylerBioRodriguez]

@@wratched Harold Hardrada of Norway. Not Harold Godwinson. Both claiments were named Harold.

[@LadyTylerBioRodriguez]

@2manynegativewaves I'm aware that people that could be called vikings remained in parts of Britain until the 1300s but the general agreed upon end of the Viking Age is 1066. Also your correct in the spelling.

[@geezergeezer1]

@@LadyTylerBioRodriguez Harald, I believe. Perhaps even Harald Hadrada.

[@LadyTylerBioRodriguez]

@@geezergeezer1 Yep.

[@gaoxiaen1]

Unforgiven and the new True Grit with Jeff Bridges were both great films. Westerns aren't dead yet.

[@miguelbranquinho7235]

I mean those are older flicks by now. It's like saying progressive rock didn't die, or punk didn't die, or slasher films didn't die, or point-and-click adventure games didn't die, or many other genres which just aren't popular anymore. They're dead, that's fine, let them rest.

[@CulainRuledByVenus]

"Displacing the frontier myth does not remove it." If there existed a promotional poster for this documentary of yours, it would be wonderfully appropriate to see this quote on it from 37:48. Excellent stuff!

[@ViperPilot16]

I do wish that more Westerns were made, just put a hardline between fact and fiction. PS: A film based in the dying west would be intriguing. Just look at how much the Red Dead Redemption series is doing (Single player wise).

[@alcedob.5850]

The Wild Bunch (1969)

[@Giaayokaats]

I find it fascinating how, even as the Frontier Myth has become passé in both film and historiography, North American culture largely structures its intercultural discourse in terms of the white American frontier. And in its Canadian iteration, it still structures historical, cultural, and political discourse today. In place of "regeneration through violence", Canada uses "conquest through benevolence" to justify its manifest destiny. But the broad strokes are the same.

[@waltertaljaard1488]

The characters in these movies nearly always were so well shaven and groomed with clean clothes. Even as a kid I wondered how they did that.

[@kalebkelso1]

Started this video thinking there's no way I'll sit here and listen to this guy for an hour. 30 minutes later I'm glad I did.

[@nathanlamb75]

I really liked this documentary and I will watch your piece on Butch and Sundance. One thing I would add: I watched a documentary about that movie once and the director said the primary significance of the bodyguard and bandits scene was that Butch never had to kill anyone until he tried to go straight. He explained that the odd way that scene was cut was meant to underscore that; it's a very powerful scene.

[@fistoflegend1564]

And kids say they hate the subject of History you made history so fun, entertaining, and educational. Good work on this project.

[@nathangale7702]

Really well done research, I really like your videos about the Southwest. I’m a UNM alumni myself and one of the most memorable experiences for me was when I went to the indigenous book festival in 2016. There is so much going on with American Indian affairs and history that it’s a little overwhelming, but I just try to learn a little more little by little. Keep up the good work.

[@bnbcraft6666]

I think superhero movies is experiencing something similar since endgame and the death of Stan Lee feels like a symbolic end to it's height

[@AncientAccounts]

Rango is the pinnacle of the western :P

[@goldman77700]

As someone who likes Reptiles more than Westerns I whole-heartily agree.

[@goldman77700]

​@@heinrichb It might be hard to imagine but some people just don't like Westerns.

[@heinrichb]

@@goldman77700 Not a huge of Westerns myself. Nonetheless I hope you are not a scalie.

[@goldman77700]

​@@heinrichb No I had to look that up. I thought that was some sort of pun on scale and scallywag.

[@Wallyworld30]

Good to great westerns since 1990. Unforgiven, True Grit remake, Hateful Eight, Django Unchained, 3:10 to Yuma, Deadwood and Tombstone. I'm sure there are more but that's off the top of my head. I love a good western, especially the old spaghetti westerns. I do realize that most of the modern movies don't show natives as savages though.

[@danielyoung6778]

The proposition, the good the bad and the weird, the sisters brothers, the assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford, bone tomahawk, the ballad of buster Scruggs, the revenant and Dead Man are other great ones.

[@agsweet708]

I was going to say this. There is another Western on Netflix that came out in 2022.

[@PKAmedia]

As a massive fan of history and cinema, must say just an absolutely brilliant video!

[@dougmoore5252]

But my taste in films has not changed. I don’t think Hollywood has the ability to make western’s anymore.

[@deoglemnaco7025]

Nicely done. I’m using your videos to relax and learn these past few weeks.... your voice and pacing are beautiful

[@CynicalHistorian]

Wow, thank you!

[@nickrustyson8124]

Now I got my theory on this. The increase of modern action crime films. No longer the best action comes from a Cowboy chasing bandits on horses, that ends gunfights that ends with the bandits going to jail or death. When you have car chases that some times take up a good chunk of the film, (Look at 1974's Gone in 60 Seconds with its 40-minute car chase) No longer have the endless desert when you can have the inner city of New York or LA. Though Western themes did still lived on with the Trucker genre. As some folk may say, "Truck Drivers are the Cowboys of the modern era."

[@cha5]

Smokey and The Bandit certainly did seem to have some Western elements in it. 😉

[@nl396]

Nearly every John Wayne movie is saturated with corniness and an unrealistic ideal of what the old west was like. One scene from Shane that stuck with me was when Joe Starrett and the cattle baron Rufus Ryker were talking. Ryker argued since his generation made the land hospitable for the white settlers they had the right to dictate who owned it. Joe accurately pointed out the Indians and trappers were there long before and tamed the land more than Rykers generation. You could say Ryker symbolized John Wayne and his false ideals of the west, Starrett destroyed the myth.

[@braindrain8055]

This video really helped me to understand american culture a bit more, linking events and clips i had seen or heard about earlier together. Thank you!

[@Torus2112]

18:45 I never knew the context of Brando doing that, every single time I've seen it referenced it was played for comedy, or otherwise made to look ridiculous. I've never even heard of AIM or the events they were involved in. Now to be fair I'm Canadian so it's not like we covered this in public school; but I really have seen that clip of the woman at the Oscars multiple times and I swear to god it was played for laughs every single time, as if this was something Brando did out of nowhere because he was some kind of eccentric. Knowing the context puts it in an entirely new light for me and I'm genuinely a bit angry that people have been presenting it as something to joke about.

[@CynicalHistorian]

this stuff isn't covered in US schools either. Amerindians basically cease to exist in standardized school narratives after Wounded Knee in 1890. Even my father, a historian himself, complained that Brando was "making the Oscars political." So you're not alone, and it's kinda surprising how common that sentiment is

[@nathangale7702]

indy_go_blue60 regardless of Brando’s motivation, he probably did more than any other celebrity in recent history to draw attention to the living tribal cultures. Of course, the bar has been set pretty low.

[@piranha5506]

@@indy_go_blue6048 none of what you said is true. Brando got fat by the end of seventies. There is no evidence of him “balling” Sacheen, and he never lost interest in this cause as apparent from his later interviews. You should show more respect for honesty.

[@danhelsting6308]

When those cowardly men dared to boo during that brave native women's speech I wished death and eternal torment upon them all. (i genuinely had to pause the video and scream i got so upset.)

[@HigHrvatski]

I guess if Russia ever made Western type movies they would be called "Eastern", because their expansion was to the East.

[@Oxtocoatl13]

I would want to see those films.

[@sebastianvella8992]

There are two good 'Easterns' if you want to call them that produced in Europe mostly Italy and France and starring Curd Jurgens ( a Gary Cooper lookalike made in Germany) as Michael Strogoff a character created by Jules Verne as a 19th century Russian agent of the Czar against the tartars and other Central Asian people conquered by the Russians.

[@benemlaw6428]

See the films Dersu Uzala and Siberiade to find out exactly what that would look like.

[@stefanb6539]

Prisoner of the Mountains by Sergei Bodrov is pretty much an Eastern with the Chechens cast as the noble savages. It's a modern adaption of a Lev Tolstoy story, an author who was quite influential in developing the mythical self-image of Tsarist Russia.

[@RoboBobo-to7fz]

Fun fact: They actually did and it was huge success in Soviet Union. The most famous is The Elusive Avengers, White Sun of The Desert and films with Gojko Mitic as Chingachgook. Easterns (or Borsh westerns) films ether was during Russian Civil War or USA, but from Indians perspective. The theme of those movies was about fight against anti-revolutionary elements or western oppression of the indigenous people.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

I'm glad I finally put an hour aside for this. A fascinating study into an area I'm not too familiar with

[@lanceash]

Wow. This is the kind of dense, scholarly documentary I like to see here. A lot of intellectual meat to digest. Good work, dude.

[@henryburby6077]

I just watched Bone Tomahawk, a movie which shows just how views of Amerindians have changed since the western died. In order to recreate the fear and hatred in the audience which Anglos once felt towards Natives, the villains have to be written as a group of prehistoric cave dwelling cannibals with no language or humanity of any kind, and even then, their killing doesn't feel exactly triumphant. of course, the more common stand-in for the cultural place which Natives once occupied are Zombies, the perfect guilt free antagonist due to their total lack of humanity. perhaps zombie stories such as the walking dead are a resurgence of the pre-self-aware, unapologetically genocidal, feel-good westerns of old. of course, zombies are also often portrayed as the product of a decadent, violent, consumerist civilization. If their hunters are the new cowboys, they are sort-of fleeing from the ruins of "civilization" back into the wilderness.

[@zirconencrustedtweezers]

I want to see a movie adaption of Blood Meridian.

[@Justin_Kipper]

That's a good point! But in the future, this will be deconstructed: zombies had their own way of life and we should all feel guilty about the zombies that were killed by other people.

[@robertmoore7153]

What can we say! Effectively a pictorial thesis on the decline of the Western. Highly impressed and I learned a lot.

[@idahomike4254]

Personally, I believe that Bite the Bullet is a great example of how modern times overtook traditional Western ways. James Coburn's line when he needed a motorcycle captured it all: "How do you start it, how do you make it go, and how do you stop it?" Classic!

[@cha5]

I always loved that movie, especially the horse shooting scene which was truely poignant and unforgettable.

[@jon-paulfilkins7820]

While I am no longer familiar with the requirements of academic rigor, I do hope your paper gets a good mark. Lots of thought provoking stuff.

[@CynicalHistorian]

Top marks. It was from last semester

[@joegallegos9109]

Really fantastic work. I'm a Native American and Hispanic man from New Mexico who also works in the film industry and we grow up with a romanticization of the West. You unpacked a lot here and I found it a really great piece of academic work.

[@johnflorida3391]

I believe my generation of the 50' a had a closer relationship to the time. Hence for interest in it. My grandmother and grandfather were born in the 1880's so I could relate to it more. I think that is also a reason.

[@zurita1642]

Genial, a really well thought documentary between History and Cinematography.

[@75aces97]

Great thesis! I said to a friend of mine how the western died around this very time, although I say the genre's decline started a few years earlier. Blazin Saddles is the most famous parody, but not the first. By Cat Ballou, if not earlier, westerns were getting parodied and deconstructed, then further with the Support Your Local... movies and the spoof short Blaze Glory in 1969. Also noteworthy about the latter half of the 1960s was the spaghetti western subgenre, where we got a European take on the American frontier.

[@carolineadams7283]

Outstanding I enjoyed this tremendously thank you and good luck And thanks so much for the blazing saddles clips

[@tomcruz8615]

Yesss you don't know how long I've been waiting for this video of yours 😁

[@TheBruces56]

This was well done and made use of high end books and films. However, early and significant drivers of the "western myth" were the dime novels and magazine articles about gunfighters, Indians and cowboys. These along with William Cody's "Wild West Show" were consumed voraciously by those back east and formed the early perceptions of life in the west. I also believe that westerns made after 1980 such as Pale Rider, Unforgiven and Lonesome Dove portrayed a more realistic vision of the west. As you noted on the Lincoln County War there was rarely black hats and white hats. The frontier was rough and unforgiving and most people rather than being good or evil were just trying to get by.

[@artkoenig9434]

Imaginative use of the Western as repository the quintessential American Myth. Well structured and presented. Thank you!

[@madcat789]

This was a good video essay on how the genre died. It's opened me up to many things I never knew. Good job.

[@SunflowerSocialist]

I’m glad you brought up art historians, because I’m finishing my undergrad in history and writing my capstone on the history of the socialist party and the Irish American community (so political and Labour history mainly) and my sister is about to start her masters in art history and we’ve had some interesting discussions. Usually it’s just me saying she’s too insular and needs to look at the broader historical context and realize that Thomas Hart Benton’s were very much a reflection of the political and social context of the time and heavily influenced by his leftist views but at the same time echos many themes from the frontier thesis and she just says I’m unrefined, don’t understand regionalist art and need to shut up.

[@CynicalHistorian]

I've had similar interactions. That's the reason art history is separated from regular history professionally. There's even people who have started calling themselves historians of art specifically to disassociate what they're doing with art history

[@star3catcherSEQUEL]

So in a nutshell: Westerns died because Americans started to realize that they had never been the hero of that time, but the villain.

[@christopherconard2831]

It was originally white hats (overly good good guys) vs black hats (purely evil bad guys). In giving characters depth they allowed heros to be flawed and villains to be humanized. This lead to the antihero, a person who may have been a villain in another story, but is the protagonist in this particular story.

[@FollowingUsernamesR]

@Richard Johnson lol, LITERALLY not

[@kevingonzalez9191]

@FollowingUsernamesR I think he was trying to attack her based on what he supposed was her ethnicity, by saying you guys he meant Latinos,since she has a Spanish name,he thinks well Latinos are like White Americans,they invaded and wiped out the populations completely.This is the case for the Spanish,to some extent,but Latinos are the descendants of the Spaniard,Africans and natives of South America.There not Europeans inhabiting the land,their mixed people who are descendent of the Spanish occupation of the America’s.And after they gained independence they integrated native people into their nations and today Latino’s are around 20% native and are proud of that.In some cases like Paraguay the independent nation literally tried to bring things back to before occupation,and today 80% of Paraguayans speak the native language along with Spanish.So no Latinos did not invade anything lol.It’s just a weird blame game,oh you said America was bad towards the natives but what about Liberia?I mean the only example he could have used was Argentina,they did do a western style expansion and wiped out the native Indians.But that’s one country out of the whole region,and even then Argentinians actually have balls and understand what they did was wrong,but a lot of white Americans don’t,I mean their school’s still teach that Western Expansion is a good thing so makes sense.But of course a lot of Americans do research like our boy Cypher and don’t do blame games and racial bias history.

[@kevingonzalez9191]

@Michael Nagy Mexicans are themselves mostly Indian bud,but yes their is cultural bias and people of the cities look at rural people as lesser,but that’s not really racism.As much as a white guy in Urban America making fun of hillbillies.And really,I said don’t do the blame game and you say oh Muh Aztecs ,haha your funny.I still have not seen any Mexican sacrificing anyone to the old gods.So Mexican Culture is not based on Aztecs as much as Japanese Culture is not based on ritual suicide anymore.

[@kevingonzalez9191]

@Michael Nagy Are you European by any chance cause if you want to play that game there have not been any people more bloody on the face of the planet,speaking historically if you wanna play that game.

[@chriscrawford5594]

What are your opinions on the spaghetti westerns? I feel they were the first films to challenge the traditional western trope by making the characters more anti heroes and more out for profit than acutla heroic deeds as a traditional western hero. Is it due to the fact that italian writers were more inclined to marxist ideas and disputing the myth of social banditry?

[@CynicalHistorian]

Honestly I think they were just part of a larger trend. Revisionist westerns (as _Still in the Saddle_ points out) weren't actually that different from the overall myth, just with some added ambiguity. And if that's the case, morally ambiguous westerns have existed since before cinema, and have always been an integral part. So I don't think spaghetti westerns were really that different afterall - at least when challenging the traditional western

[@Blaqjaqshellaq]

1969 wasn't just the year of BUTCH CASSIDY, THE WILD BUNCH and TRUE GRIT. It was also the year of ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST, which flopped in America (didn't have Clint Eastwood) but was a huge hit overseas, making Charles Bronson a star. One thing I like about spaghetti westerns is the Italian actors in the supporting roles: putting them in a frontier setting makes them look even more Italian!

[@hubertblastinoff9001]

@@CynicalHistorian the Western also got a German (both east and west) adaptation, though a (much distorted) image of Native Americans as "the good guys" dominated there. Surely in the East German case, casting the Natives as the good guys made the U.S. out to be the bad guys... Bad Segeberg still has a "Western Show" ("Karl May Festspiele")

[@Frank-mm2yp]

@@MrUndersolo Kurosawa got some of his inspiration from Shakespeare (as did everyone else)The themes of "the Western" are universal just put into a particular place and time.

[@kennkid9912]

@@Blaqjaqshellaq Wasnt that the western revenge theme again? Didnt Bronson get the girl? Spaghetti westerns are the western theme exaggerated.

[@cedricworthingtonbroadaxe2287]

As a small boy in the 1950s, the first film I remember being taken to the cinema to see was Big John Wayne in Stagecoach. From that day on I grew up trying to be like the heroic cowboy's I saw on the cinema/TV screens; summed up quite nicely in the words of the Country and Western song shown below:- I grew up a-dreamin' of bein' a cowboy And lovin' the cowboy ways Pursuin' the life of my hard-ridin' heroes I burned up my childhood days I learned all the rules of a modern-day drifter Don't you hold on to nothin' too long Take what you need from the ladies and then leave them Were the words of a sad country song My heroes have always been cowboys And they still are, it seems Sadly, in search of, but one step in back of Themselves and their slow-movin' dreams Cowboys are special with their own brand of misery From being alone too long You can die from the cold in the arms of a nightmare Knowin' well that your best days are gone Pickin' up hookers instead of my pen I let the words of my youth fade away Old worn-out saddles and old worn-out memories But no one and no place to stay My heroes have always been cowboys And they still are, it seems Sadly, in search of, and one step in back of Themselves and their slow-movin' dreams Sadly, in search of, and one step in back of Themselves and their slow-movin' dreams

[@fwcolb]

Great analysis. I downloaded to my phone and listened last night. What would be interesting would be the impact of the Civil War upon the historical versus the mythical West. And why Canada never had a Wild West in reality or in myth. In 1873 Canada formed the Royal North-West Mounted Police as a response to a massacre of native people by American whiskey traders. The Northwest Territories at that time occupied most of western and northern Canada, and was occupied by native people and mixed people, called Metis, who spoke French. In 1870, Manitoba was separated from the Northwest Territory and became the sixth province, the terms of which provoked a rebellion by Metis (Mestizos). A settlement of outstanding grievances was finally reached in 2013 by a Supreme Court decision decided in favour of the Metis, based on preserving the Honour of the Crown. The Sioux in Canada, "Following the arrival of the Sioux in Canada, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police learned of Custer’s bloody defeat. Major Walsh apprehended Sitting Bull and his tribe with a detachment of 25 men on November 24, 1876. With the help of an [interpreter], Walsh explained that Canada was not to be used as a departing point for raids on the United States. A new team of Mounted Police was deployed to Wood Mountain to “maintain the right” amidst the presence of the Sioux." URL: www.mysteriesofcanada.com/saskatchewan/sitting-bull/ The Sioux met a council of Canadian Indian tribes. The Sioux were informed that Canada recognized the treaty rights of Canadian tribes and Canada was supplying beef because the Buffalo had disappeared. No treaty with First Nations peoples has ever been abrogated by the Crown, though abuses of Indian rights continued until modern times. The Sioux departed Canada peaceably to the US shortly before the event at Wounded Knee. While Canada had a short-lived Metis rebellion in Manitoba, the Canadian Northwest was never "wild", not even during the Klondike Gold Rush which began in the mid-1890's, owing to close regulation by the Mounties. Why was the Canadian West not wild? Was it because Canadians believed they were building in Canada a civilization similar to European civilization? The Preamble to the UK statute, the British North America Act read, "Whereas the Provinces of Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick have expressed their Desire to be federally united into One Dominion under the Crown of the United Kingdom of Groat Britain and Ireland, with a Constitution similar in Principle to that of the United Kingdom…" The Fathers of Confederation had drafted the Constitution before submitting it to the UK Government. Canada adopted the BNA Act as the Constitution Act 1867. The Preamble to the BNA Act shows that the founders of Canada deliberately sought to build in North America a civilization that was similar to European civilization, specifically that of Britain. In 1963, I submitted my MA thesis in Ohio on the subject of the agricultural and industrial revolutions in Ohio from 1860 to 1920. During my defence of the thesis, I was asked by an historian if Turner's thesis was valid. I said that I believed that by the 1960's the frontier was effectively closed. I based this on the location in 1860 of the meridian of longitude that represented the center of US population.

[@FRANKTHRING1]

I saw most of these movies in the Cinema (I am 69) and although I enjoyed this illustrated lecture very much it is a tad too intellectual for me; revisionist Westerms played their part, as did the mood of the times - hippies, the Vietnam War, the pride movement among US First Nations - but what killed off the cowboy movie was hard-headed Hollywood - too many of these pictures lost their way or heart in the cynical 70s and 80s and failed at the box office (eg Heaven`s Gate). Hollywood never forgives box office failure and thus the die was cast.

[@HistoryandHeadlines]

I find these history vs. Hollywood kind of videos particularly interesting as I am teaching an online course developed by a colleague in which he assigns Shane to the students. Also, fun fact, Frederick Jackson Turner was the dissertation adviser of the adviser of my adviser! :)

[@michaelharrington7656]

Fine,well done and thank you. However I think some mention should have been made of John Ford and the way his vision influenced the Western and also changed. In films like Fort Apache, and The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, and Cheyenne Autumn he undermined myths that he had a big hand in formulating in the first place. Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West exhibition from the 1880s into around 1912 had a very obvious influence on the main Western themes of Hollywood. Sergio Leonie's spaghetti westerns were sardonic and nihilistic and brilliant. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is a masterpiece.

[@StoutProper]

Vietnam war films kinda replaced the western as the staple for a while, no? Then that there star wars, which was pretty much just a western in space, had a bit of an impact in it's day back in the 70s, and created a new myth for people to buy into.

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

Star Wars had Western aesthetics, for sure, but it also borrowed a LOT from Samurai films. The advantage of the sci-fi vehicle is the ability to synthesize both Western and "Eastern." Though Westerns and Samurai flicks and been synthesized before Star Wars as well.

[@sidneyadnopoz3427]

I know this is a tangent, but my brother used to get annoyed with me when I refered to "Firefly"- one of his favorite shows- as a Space Western.

[@GuapoG0tGuap]

IMO westerns weren't replaced by scifi movies like Star Wars, they were replaced by gangster movies. In the same way the western was a mythical representation of how America used to see itself, the gangster movie became the new way more cynical generations saw the American myth. Some shows like Sons of Anarchy and Breaking Bad and Fargo ride the fence between being gangster shows and being westerns. Fargo's latest season has a line in it: "you know why America loves a gangster story? Because America is a gangster story." And 3 years after Heaven's Gate flopped, Scarface came out with the tagline "He lived the American Dream. With a vengeance." When Scorsese saw Scarface, he told one of the actors "You guys are great, but Hollywood's gonna hate it because it's about them." And I remember watching a documentary about the making of Jay-Z's first album where he talks about how much the Scarface story resonated with him as an American myth when he explains why he has lines from Scarface as the introduction to the album. As our historians and popular sentiment became more cynical towards the old myths and more open-minded towards the experiences of marginalized groups, we changed our myths.

[@CosmoShidan]

I would also place Gerry and Silvia Anderson's sci-fi classic, Space 1999 as the catalyst that paved way for Star Wars and ultimately buried the Western 2 years prior.

[@maxsmodels]

That was a lot of work but the short version is that the western myth was killed by a dissemination of more information about the era. People like movies to be simple and the settling of the west, like all occupations, is nuanced. Nuance is confusing and often ambiguous and that does not make for a fun movie. One of the best westerns was "She wore a yellow ribbon" where the Duke portrayed an old cavalry soldier who was in many was sympathetic to the native Americans.

[@Blaqjaqshellaq]

The way I see it, realism killed the western. The real frontier tended to be a dull, grimy and unpleasant place...

[@MrHockeycrack]

@@Blaqjaqshellaq If so, then there would hardly live millions of people nowadays.

[@Zacon2mlg]

this is perhaps one of my favorite videos ever on youtube in general

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

Thanks, Cipher. This was a real treat. Love me some long-form videos, know this was probably a one-off but you pulled it off in style. I was wondering, what was going on in other mediums in regards to this subject-matter? It seems like a lot of it was dictated by film-specific trends and events (obviously, we're talking about a film genre), but did the cultural dialogue and social movements effect other mediums, like literature? What do you think of the Western genre and its encompassing mythos as interpreted by these other mediums, newer ones included like video games? Are they completely derivative or do the peculiarities of - say - comic books or video games as mediums have potential to explore the American Western and its trappings in new ways? Additionally, have you done much research into the advent of the 'Spaghetti Western' in addition to your deep-dive into the apotheosis and demise of the Western genre as an American phenomenon? I'm talking about the social and economic factors that acted as catalyst for the sub-genre and the particular iconography and cultural parallels that informed the similar aesthetics but wildly different commentary and themes often portrayed in those films in contrast to their American forebears.

[@CynicalHistorian]

Video games westerns like Red Dead are pretty much completely derivative of movie Westerns. But as you can see in the doc, movies are derivative of literature. And spaghetti westerns are not a separate phenomenon. In fact, they were actually fairly evocative of older Hollywood westerns. Audiences may have seen them as some kind of new commentary, but what Sergio Leone had to say, John Ford beat him by more than a decade. No, they were merely part of this trend like all other Westerns. Being directed by an Italian makes no difference

[@PaulKyriazi]

Excellent, detailed, well researched documentary.

[@tinaw.5538]

I grew up on westerns, and Rio bravo and El dorado are two of my favorites. I really loved Ricky Nelson in Rio bravo.

[@andyfletcher3561]

Rio Bravo is one of my favorite movies of all time, and top 5 John Wayne film for me. One of Angie Dickinson's best as well.

[@ZachValkyrie]

Wow! What a piece! You've really outdone yourself, sir. Bully for you!

[@Jeff-zm2zk]

Great video! - Jeff the roommate :)

[@missjbaku]

So glad I found your channel! #fellowhistorylover

[@Glassandcandy]

Heaven's Gate is an under appreciated masterpiece as far as quality direction and film making goes. Not to mention the cinematography, especially on the restored final cut. I mean, just wow, there are no other words. Jaw droppingly aesthetic.

[@jergarmar]

Nice video! I think you've stumbled onto something interesting: the "frontier myth" is simply NOT understood as well as, for example, the "Lost Cause myth" or other such shifts in historical academia. Maybe that's because the frontier myth is more diffuse, more difficult to pin down, compared to the Civil War and it's aftermath. As a parallel, perhaps we can imagine a world where the Civil War never happened, where slavery fell away in fits and starts, in some places but not others, and then trying to pin down when society as a whole rejected slavery. But to speak more specifically, we don't have that kind of wholesale popular rejection of this myth compared to, for example, the Lost Cause myth. Even older westerns still don't produce the kind of moral repugnance that, for example, many people feel when watching Gone with the Wind. Perhaps it's a bit easier for "neo-western" films to cherrypick some of the tropes and trappings of the genre, without invoking the myths that formed the genre in the first place. Put even more briefly, it's amazing to see the extent to which the "Red Power" movement, and Native American affairs in general, have totally vanished off of the political, cultural, and entertainment landscapes. Personally, I think that the legacy of slavery has had a more corrosive effect on the US, causing an entire war to be fought over it, with clear effects to the present day. But it's also something we've HAD to look at and address more. But the frontier myth, encapsulating American exceptionalism and treatment of Native Americans? It's not really even on the cultural map right now. I know this is a simplification, but to a certain extent, in a limited way, the western survived but the revisionist reaction to it did not.

[@michaelharrington7656]

Thank you. I will watch it again but I'd like to make a couple of points now. I'm surprised you do not mention the name of John Ford or any other directors. These movies did not make themselves. You can see change taking place in the work of this one creative artist. Robin Wood, in his fine essay on Ford, shows a "loss of faith" between movies like My Darling Clementine (1946) and She Wore A Yellow Ribbon1949) which represent a high point in American confidence, and later works such as The Man Who Shot Liberty Vallance(1962) and Cheyenne Autumn (1964) which are dominated by elegiacal sadness . You are right to mention Vietnam but you should have mentioned World War Two and the extraordinary moral prestige it brought to America and the US military, all of which was reflected in the westerns of the 1940s and 1950s.

[@vr4787]

Just out of curiosity, what is your interpretation on the genre in the video game platform with Red Dead Redemption I & II being very popular?

[@CynicalHistorian]

dunno

[@davidaaronartist]

Its midnight and i can't believe I watch it all, but it was very interesting. Muchas gracias 🙏

[@jasonlopez75]

OMG! Best History Channel on KZbin! Really puts a lot of the current U.S. cultural and political divide into perspective. Awesome!

[@urzmontst.george6314]

Your channel is really good.

[@m.f.i.meaninglessfilminsti2013]

I pause @ 1:03,,,,notice 2 pencil sharpeners, a land line phone, a pile of used books and pink tape. Old School, I dig it. Carry on sir, you have my attention.

[@k.schmidt2740]

Thanks for the great overview - in spite of the somewhat short shrift one of my all-time favorite films ("Heaven's Gate") gets.

[@garrymoore8017]

Thank you for your superlative commentary and editing.

[@jwrobinson2626]

Good coverage and research. Really appreciated the balanced approach. Well done.

[@misedout12]

Fascinating, simply fascinating. Having been a fan of Westerns, particularly the ones referenced here, this video places those, as well as those current, into a brand new light. I would be curious about your views on current western made in the last 25 to 30 years.

[@nicolechampeau8432]

I really really enjoyed this, thank you! I'd love to see you do more long from video essay type things (I know they're a lot of work though). 2 things 1: I totally agree with you about the latter westerns are often not considered in the context of the time that they were released. I generally kinda cringe at the terms revisionist western and anti western. 2): 1968 was just a big redefining year in American film generally. The genres that flourished under the studio system (the musical, the epic) were declared dead. And films like 2001, and Night of the Living Dead, changed genre films (and audience expectations of them). I also think it's notable that so many genre films were coming from outside the US. Also, this was the time when a lot of film makers integral to various genres (Ford, Hawks, Hitchcock, etc...) were retiring/dying. And being replaced by "new Hollywood". Anyhoo, this was really interesting and you did a good job putting a lot of information into a cohesive idea that flows.

[@CynicalHistorian]

There was also the "rural purge" on television that may have contributed. And i could've at least mentioned Watergate/Pentagon Papers. So yeah, there's a lot more to explore with this subject. This 30-pager is too short for comprehensiveness

[@nicolechampeau8432]

@@CynicalHistorian Oh yeah, I never thought of that. Isn't it interesting that just when stuff like Green Acres was getting canceled, we started getting films like Deliverance and Straw Dogs? Welp, I guess you'll just have to make some more videos to cover everything!

[@dark_fire_ice]

When you mentioned a typical error in art historians, I connect that that all specialists; they tend to miss the forest for the trees

[@robokill387]

More accurately; when you're used to solving problems with a hammer, you begin seeing every problem as a nail.

[@dark_fire_ice]

@@robokill387 that is a little short sighted; the huge number of hammers, with so many specialized tasks, nails are merely the most common use for the lay man

[@leeyahwehson2753]

Beautifully done bro.

[@Skabanis]

Wow you channel stop growing meanwhile now you know is near 500k...great channel btw I wasn’t getting. Notifications!

[@sniffles8672]

No mention of spaghetti western? hm...it has big impact imo

[@StoutProper]

Sniffles also some of the very best

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

I think he neglected to talk about the Spaghetti Westerns (I love them, too, btw) because 1) He's not as well-versed in them and didn't want to speak out of turn. 2) Spaghetti Westerns don't generally encompass the same deeply-ingrained social ramifications specific to the United States in the same way as the "classic" (boring :P) Western - Spaghetti Westerns were partly spawned by - of course - financial availability and movies trends - but also shared iconography between Southern Italy and the American West in both class structure and general geography. Spain is a better bet for the wide-open spaces of the West - famously - but a lot of the West is rocky and tan or lush and mountainous and that can be Italy in droves. The phenomenon of the Banditti (and much later Partigiani) that proliferated in the South produced similar legends to that of the "social bandits" of the Old West, not to mention the fact that Guiseppe Garibaldi - one of the founding-fathers of modern Italy - famously wore a serape-like garment he found during his military adventures in South America - and it just so happens the most iconic Spaghetti Western figure of all time ALSO famously wears that same garment. The familiarity of the social constraints and iconography - juxtaposed with the relative exoticism of the wide-open spaces of the American West, made the idea of the Western uniquely palatable to Italian imagination post-WWII. Just as the "Old West" largely sprung out of the aftermath of the US Civil War, the Western in the imagination of Italian filmmakers (also no doubt motivated by predominant film trends - don't get me wrong) sprung out of the aftermath of Italy's own bloody civil war from 1943 - 1945. The destruction of WWII on a physical level - and the destruction of the civil war on a social and political level - left deep-seeded rifts in Italian society that would often explode into violence (The Years of Lead, for instance) - the setting of the American Old West presented a distinctly different, yet strangely familiar setting with which to explore these sensitive issues with a degree of distance. That's what I'd argue, at least. I could be full of shit - I just find the "Westerns made money and it was cheap to film in Spain" explanation to be reductive.

[@lollmemmSm0keweed]

Spaghetti westerns were more mythology hero films.

[@HiddenGhul]

I think it’s probably because Spaghetti Westerns, while definitely Westerns and huge in America, aren’t Westerns in the sense that they’re American movies about the American frontier.

[@CynicalHistorian]

For some reason this incorrect comment got more upvotes than the one I actually responded to. It's kinda revealing of viewer ignorance. I actually do mention spaghetti westerns in video multiple times, and show one on-screen several times. I know it's a long video, but lying about it is - well, lying. But here is a response to that earlier comment: Honestly I think they were just part of a larger trend. Revisionist westerns (as _Still in the Saddle_ points out) weren't actually that different from the overall myth, just with some added ambiguity. And if that's the case, morally ambiguous westerns have existed since before cinema, and have always been an integral part. So I don't think spaghetti westerns were really that different afterall - at least when challenging the traditional western [and no @Fuzzy Dunlop, I'm quite well-versed in them, obviously]

[@johnrogers8876]

Curious to hear your thoughts on how westerns seem to have found a new home on prestige television ala period shows like Deadwood and Hell on Wheels and popular modern set westerns like Justified and Yellowstone.

[@CynicalHistorian]

It's a very curious trend and I dunno what to make outta it

[@Vonriga]

While I don't always agree with your politics, I continue to follow and appreciate your work. Thank you.

[@laterdudesaint]

Still, a good western shows up every now and then.

[@robk7266]

True Grit is probably the most recent western movie that played it straight, and that was ten years ago.

[@Mike_LaFontaine75]

The reason Pat Garret did so poorly at the box office is that it was heavily edited by the studio, and the the director disowned it. The director's cut became available a decade later, this is the one that became a cult favorite.

[@patrickselden5747]

A fascinating video-essay, dudemeister - ta very muchly! ☝️😎

[@erinrising2799]

Was a little bummed you didn't mention Silverado, which is worth a watch if only for the soundtrack

[@colinsilver1041]

I freaking love westerns, but I recently found myself noticing the "myth of the west" in the westerns, so much that I often can't tell what's authentic and what's idolized.

[@lordofooo4386]

Amazing work; really quite good. This is definitely an A in any class I teach.

[@randyacuna3248]

I am in the school that good writing and good storytelling can make a good western, good actors are a plus,

[@archer1949]

I don’t know. Tombstone still remains one of my favorite movies, even though it was made in the tail end of the brief Dances With Wolves revival. It was pretty traditional and eschewed most of the trappings of the “revisionist” western.

[@9786oof]

That Brutus metaphor was 😘👌

[@rayceeya8659]

I've been watching your channel for years. How have I not seen this video yet? I think this might be my favorite video on your channel! I grew up in "The West" and watching old westerns. The evolution of the western is fascinating. I grew up during the Spaghetti Western movement. Those old Sergio Leone film were so much more real than the old John Ford Westerns my dad loved.

[@MrHockeycrack]

Leone was great visualist and storyteller, but there is also a lot of supernatural fantasy, surrealism even in his works. Ford was another school and much older generation, but in no way more unrealistic.

[@benjamin6194]

Loved the video! Loved it. As an expression of my love, I'm gonna nitpick it. Butch and Sundance never took a vow of nonviolence. Butch simply confessed that he'd never shot anyone before, when they were about to shoot the guards after "going straight." Sundance is a notorious gunfighter, I always thought we were supposed to assume he'd killed a lot of people. Butch waslucky enough to talk his way out of most sticky situations, 'cause that was his strong suit. But neither actually opposed violence. They just found it mostly unnecessary until they went straight. Also, I decided even as a kid, that Western's were mostly best viewed as literally myths, taking place in an imaginary fantasy land, not so different from Middle Earth. A few are tied to historical events, but most play it very vague with the details. I always saw their "America" as an imaginary place, not tied to history books. When you think about it, most take place after the widespread adoption of the 6 shooter, sometime after the civil war, but also before widespread adoption of inventions like the telephone or electricity. That's not a very big window. What is it that 30, maybe 40 years in which that level of technology was the norm? The timelines just don't line up if we try to take most of them seriously as history. But that's just be retroactively applying my modern sensibilities to something people took more literally at the time.