When to SMITE with your Paladin D&D 5e

[@AlwaysGrowing0]

I saw this on another video so I will repost it here. One must not forget the sacred rule of a paladin. You must smite on a critical hit, or your become a Oath Breaker Paladin.

[@horbi3683]

That's hilarious 😄

[@-POISON-]

I play an Oathbreaker Paladin and smite all the time.

[@andrewgreeb916]

is the goal to overkill that goblin really hard?

[@aldoushuxley5953]

Oathbreaker is legit a good subclass, so I would do it :)

[@poilboiler]

@@andrewgreeb916 There is no overkill, there is only "start smiting" and "I'm out of spell slots".

[@robinthrush9672]

1) Before asking questions 2) when the target is standing

[@BW022]

#6, the creatures is difficult to hit. If it has a high AC and say blur, fighting in darkness, etc. and you find yourself missing most of the time, it is worth spell slots to do damage. If you are missing 75% of the time, even with two attacks, this could be painful to wait another two rounds just to hit it again. Use the smites when you can since it is a far more reliable way to boast damage. #7, if your opponent is concentrating on a nasty spell. If several PCs are held and you hit an enemy cleric, might as well give yourself the best chance to remove the concentration.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Those are good additions

[@quonomonna8126]

#8 when their existence offends your god and you've had enough of their crap

[@benjaminholcomb9478]

@@quonomonna8126 that's a given

[@liaminal4934]

I love number five. I’m a spellcaster at heart, even when I play more martial focused characters, so my paladins are usually roleplayed as restrained and wise, looking to cast spells like bless and hypnotic pattern (redemption oath) and only smiting occasionally. It’s a super cool moment in character when the enemies start overwhelming us. Maybe an ally goes down or a second wave of enemies show up to what was already a tough encounter and my “defence first, protect the innocent” paladin runs up to the front of the party and starts ripping enemies in half with a glaive. Smite on every hit for four rounds straight and end the encounter (hopefully alive) taking a knee to catch my breath while solemnly stitching up my wounds with lay on hands.

[@TheAdditionalPylons]

One of the most memorable funny moments in my DnD career was when one of my players got a critical hit, dropped a 3rd level smite, and did over 50 damage to a creature with 3 hp remaining.

[@peterthompson760]

lol, got'em!

[@CLNCJD94]

It’s not about the damage it’s about sending a message.

[@peterthompson760]

@@CLNCJD94 The Paladin Smites, and says, "Heresy will not be tolerated." They then look around, and ask, "Anyone else?"

[@papercliprain3222]

Something I ran into just yesterday was learning to smite when the opponent has high AC. We were fighting some knights with an AC I’m pretty sure was close to 20 and when I actually made a hit I smiled the heck out of them.

[@cfalkner1012]

I gm for a paladin who has almost exclusively used their spell slots for smites. Although it’s exciting for the table to see all those dice roll, it’s exciting for me to see how their tactics change once the smite slots are gone.

[@chrislieu6757]

Is sulking a tactic?

[@cfalkner1012]

@@chrislieu6757 Sulking always works. Until it doesn’t.

[@KaitlynBurnellMath]

I would put a lot of emphasis on the 5th point--smite when the fight is going badly. In a way, optimising in D&D is an exercise in risk mitigation. How do you prevent a TPK? You will have lots and lots of fights that go well, where one of the players rolls well or has the perfect trick to get a fight under control. I've run the numbers and a typical 5th level Barbarian will solo-kill a typical CR5 monster, and they'll do so something like 70%+ of the time. And we're told CR5 is meant to be a challenge for a full 5th level party. But does this mean a DM should send 5 CR5 monsters against a party of five? No: if the party TPKed every 3 fights, then you would have an unhappy party. D&D parties are meant to win somewhere around 95% of encounters. The focus of optimisation, then, is to raise that 95% victory margin, to 99%. There's a few ways to do that, including * protecting your saving throws. (If a single die roll takes you out of a fight, that adds a lot of variance to your character's performance). * Spending every resource when a fight is going badly. * Using more reliable strategies (spells that don't have saving throws, lower variance damage).

[@insertphrasehere15]

When you should smite with your paladin: “Yes.”

[@Melorific]

Great video. I agree that smiting is a much more nuanced ability the community generally makes it out to be. Unless you have 1 fight per long rest, paladins actually have a very limited amount of resources. So you have to make those spell slots count. You touched on it during point 4. But I would've added it at the end as perhaps a 5B: If downing the enemy quicker would prevent a potentially desperate situation. If you know an enemy is big and bad and will likely cause a lot of trouble, churning out those smites before things actually get desperate might prevent the desperate situation in the first place, saving you downed allies and might mean you have more health at the end of the fight because the big bad enemy got a turn less.

[@andrewgreeb916]

smite is a good way to force a caster to drop concentration, sometimes just dealing more damage is better than just dropping the enemy sooner.

[@Byssbod]

In tier 4 play you actually have a shitton of resources and little to spend it on other than smites. You've got 15 total slots wheras a full caster has uhhh 19 total slots? And since your spells are best spent just on concentration options so you know, maybe you concentrate on five spells during the day, you might as well smite a lot with your remainder spells. I mean the hell else are you going to spend all 15 spells in that day?

[@SnarkyRogue]

YES bring on the pally guides, I'm playing one for the first time soon and need all the tips and tricks of the trade I can get

[@peterthompson760]

I would suggest an Elven (pick your favorite Sub Race) Divine Bladesinger Paladin - 8 Bladesinger, 8 Divine Soul, 4 any Paladin. Stack Bestow Curse upcasted to level 5 (Non-Concentration) and Spirit Shroud up cast to what ever. With Bladesinger extra attack you can substitute one of your attacks with a Cantrip, like Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade. Divine Soul among other things gives you Meta Magic. If you take Quicken Spell you can quicken Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade for a third attack, all of which you can Smite. Oh, yeah Magic Missile would be helpful. Point Buy; Strength 13, Dexterity 15, Constitution 11, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 8, and Charisma 13. Racial Bonus; +2 Dexterity and +1 to Intelligence. Suggested Build Order; 6 Bladesinger (Elven Accuracy at level 4), 4 Divine Soul (Quicken Spell/Extended Spell at level 9 and +2 Dexterity at level 10), 2 Paladin, 4 Divine Soul (+2 Intelligence at level 16), 2 Bladesinger (+2 Intelligence at level 18), and 2 Paladin (Resilient Constitution or maybe Tough at level 20).

[@jakob7184]

1:50 I would argue that the misconception is worded poorly. You get more smites not because you wind up with more slots in the end, but because you have those spell slots sooner. You have the option more frequently during the campaign than a straight Paladin especially between levels 4 and 11 where a lot of games take place. A split 2/2 caster is a level 3 caster where a straight pally 4 is a level 2 caster. In general agreement, good advice!

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Fair enough

[@csdn4483]

I was going to make the same point. As a Pally 6/Bard or Sorc 5, you have 2 4th level slots as well which is a pretty big jump. So, you're an 8th level caster which means 4 1st, 3 2nds, 3 3rds, and 2 4ths (which means getting to level 15 as a Paladin to have the same number of slots).

[@petenell5807]

Also, if you use spell points. It's a huge difference.

[@petenell5807]

For multi-classing casters, if you use spell points, those higher level spots are a huge boost to smite numbers. You can have a similar effect with sorcerer. By turning higher level slots into lower level slots. Same dice, but can spread it out more so as to not waste overkill damage. Turn a 4th slot into 2x1st. Both 4d8. But it's not generally worth it with sorcerer. But with spell points....

[@Calimdir]

Okay but are you ever gonna multiclass before extra attack??

[@TheScottishKayaker]

I can attest to making sure the smite is necessary to kill the target. On a lvl20 oneshot there was a mini boss we were fighting and I went last in initiative. Our fighter had gotten in a few good hits but was the only one fighting the mini boss as we had been swarmed with ads so i figured I would hit it hard and try to knock it out of the fight. So I dropped a 4th level and 3rd level smites on each of my attacks criting on ths 4th level and rolled all the dice. Our DM gave me a horrified look when I read off the damage and told me the Jabberwaki only had 12 hp left and even subtacting that 12 from the total I could have killed it outright. An epic moment sure but an utter waste of resources

[@lord6617]

"When should I smite?" "Yes" Hasn't let me down so far.

[@slydoorkeeper4783]

Same, I haven't found a VAST majority of levels 1-3 spell slots very useful, at least in the game I'm in, so spell slots really have just been smite slots. Level 4 and 5 seem a bit more useful, but to me, most of the paladin spell slots feel they are best used for smites.

[@lord6617]

@@slydoorkeeper4783 I think one issue is that as a paladin, you are going to get hit. And you probably aren't protecting your concentration save. And all of the useful spells require concentration. So heck with it, you can basically just bless yourself and then start smiting.

[@slydoorkeeper4783]

@@lord6617 Quite literally this, I've came to that same conclusion that all of the good paladin spells (at least of levels 1-3) require concentration so to keep them going I would need Resilient (Constitution) and/or the War Caster feat. Honestly, I think they could have made the paladin either not a caster and just have smite slots, or have them be a caster similar to warlocks and still have smite slots (in this case, spell slots aren't smite slots).

[@connor712]

I've played several paladins, all in "one fight per lr" type campaigns, so my smite management wasn't particularly measured. The majority of the time, I simply figured out which enemy had to die first and then did my best to make sure that slots weren't wasted on enemies that would have died anyway. Gave the illusion that my character was super high damage despite them not really being built for it. I'd say "well, I'm only doing this damage because I can afford to smite on almost every attack" but it was a hollow statement considering I never actually had to show just how mediocre my characters' damage would be on, say, the third encounter in a day. edit: of course I was always also concentrating on a spell (usually bless or shield of faith)

[@jetsonpitsch4293]

Perfect timing! My friend is wanting to start a game soon and I’ve been thinking about a paladin multi class. The last two days I’ve been rewatching your build videos to find the right one for me. Glad there’s gonna be another example on Friday. Thanks Chris!

[@UncleBBQ]

Another good point to remember is your place in initiative and when that enemy goes next. If the enemy doesn't go until 4 turns later and your party is all in-between it, there's no point in using a resource to kill it sooner when your party can deal with it after your turn anyway.

[@TheBlink182ify]

"When to SMITE with your Paladin D&D 5e",everytime my friend... everytime

[@thetattooedyoshi]

And of course number 6: When there is HERESY

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Death to the unbeliever!

[@bryanburgess3950]

Smite on every swing, and get action surge so you can swing more

[@kenscott1082]

You can’t smite when you’re dead. Sometimes you’re in a race to kill the person trying to kill you. Desperate means you can’t spend the spell slots fast enough.

[@Cleptomancer]

Short & Sweet. Number 5 was a lesson I had to learn the hard way. Holding back resources when you're losing leaves a really sour taste when you actually lose & know there was stuff you still could have done. Looking forward to the hexadin video!

[@Zswasd]

I've played a hexblade paladin on a short campaign once and it was very cool, looking forward to your take on this build!

[@ChristnThms]

Another consideration when evaluating Smites, is whether the Paladin is using GWM. Casting Bless on yourself before the fight, if you're able, will almost undoubtedly deliver more benefit than a single smite. Similar consideration for Magic Weapon and Elemental Weapon, if you don't have an actual magic weapon. I find that Paladins, more than anyone else, are the ones demanding a Long Rest after every fight. It's not that Smiting is bad. But it seems that the vast majority of players who are fans of it show zero self restraint.

[@ambushthesniper5729]

Which paladin makes a better tank? Also thank you Treantmonk yet again you deliver. Look forward to the next video.

[@MikeydactylGaming]

Conquest can mass fear which does wonders for tanking for an entire team. Actually worth going Hexaladin to max out your charisma saves ASAP.

[@Seraphim_MTG]

Another tip I'd say is to know yourself ad your tendencies. Do you tend to tell yourself "I should have kept some slots for spells", then when you make considerations, err on not smiting. If you end the day with unused slots, err on delivering divine justice. Knowing your bias helps counteract them.

[@chiepah2]

One thing on extra spell slots and Sorcadin, sorcery points.

[@comfortablegrey]

Short and sweet. Looking forward to the next build!

[@96samcosmo]

I think the biggest factor is if you think smiting will reduce the number of turns until that enemy is removed from the fight. I think that concept sums up points 1-4 quite nicely.

[@ASUbuckaroo15]

As the appointed tactician/optimizer at my game table I agree with all of these suggestions for when to smite except for when you know the smite is not needed to kill the enemy. The only time I have used a smite to overkill an enemy was when we confronted a mid game BBG who had assaulted our keep killing two of our players in the fight. Player character sacrifices and some fantastically lucky interventions saved the two and solidified BBG as enemy #2 on our hit list. IRL multiple years later (in game a few weeks) and the group is playing in person for the first time in years. We are searching for an artifact and run into the BBG and her two pet adult dragons. Things were desperate to say the least and the fight got real emotional for the group when we here the magical words DM: "You don't need to use your 2nd level slot on that last smite, how do you want her to die?" Table: goes feral Paladin: "Can I use a fourth level slot instead?" Table: is yelling "KIIILL HEEERRRRRR!!!" DM: " Sure?" Paladin: "I plunge my sword downwards into her chest just below the neck channeling all of the radiant energy allotted to me by the Gods of Justice." Paladin in character: "You are the reason SHE is in such a dark place. May the Gods have more mercy for you than I do." DM: Radiant fire burns away everything below the neck leaving only hear head intact. TLDR: Paladin uses highest level spell slot to overkill BBG due to repercussions and trauma from the prior encounters with the BBG. It's OK to use your smites when you don't need to in order to finish an enemy if the moment calls for it The Friends don't hate many people, but they all hate Talis the White.

[@Jarikraider]

When to smite? Do you have spell slots available? No -> Don't smite. Do you have spell slots available? Yes -> SMITE THE WORLD!

[@german3652]

As a current Hexadin, I can’t wait to see what you’ve come up with

[@devin5201]

Great video but I have my own list of situations to smite 1. the enemy is at full hp and you hit them. 2. the enemy has taken some damage and you hit them. 3. someone looked at you wrong. 4. you want to make that goblin explode. 5. just because.

[@SigurdBraathen]

Great list, but you forgot: "You're pretty sure that ugly orc only got 1 hp left, but you really would like to kill it *GOOD* ". ;)

[@unvoicedapollo3318]

Always good to know I'm using my smites correctly (just started a d&d campaign with a paladin and none of those criteria have come up...yet)

[@thomasace2547]

TMT: When should you smite with your paladin? Me: When the Fiend/Undead you’re fighting hasn’t gone down and you just rolled a Crit

[@exqueue3813]

Sorcadin isn't the best example, since sorcery points let you generate extra spell slots and convert larger slots into multiple smaller slots.

[@humbertomartins7205]

10 minute version of : BRO THERE'S NUANCE TO THIS BRO SERIOUSLY LOOK AT THAT NUANCE.

[@DeadMech1]

Paladin warlock you say... I recently played a campaign with one of those. Vengence paladin hexblade warlock. Sprinkle in 2 levels of grave domain cleric, the lucky feat, and get ahold of an amulet of the devout. Gives you a character that spends two turns charging up and is then capable of one shotting just about anything. it was kinda disgusting. Preferably you'd have a grave cleric in the party so that you don't have to do path to the grave yourself and then no longer need a specific magic item but I play in a party that is usually 3 people. So I had to carry that responsibility myself. Turn one: decide if you are in the most important fight of the day. if yes, pick the most important enemy and beeline towards them. (Action) Eldritch blast at them and then use (Bonus Action)hexblade's curse. You attack first instead of buff first because your target might be an illusion and you want to find that out before you use an important resource on them. Also this probes the enemies AC which is important for deciding if you want to great weapon master on the big attack or not. Turn two: Use your paladin's (Bonus Action)Channel Divinity vow of enmity and either immediately use path to the grave or hold action it to go off just before your next turn. Turn three: Cast (Bonus Action) banishing smite (or similar spell) then cast(Action) Booming Blade and use great weapon master if you think it's safe. This is an all or nothing single attack so while 20 extra damage is nice and you've done everything to put the odds in your favor you should still choose wisely. You are stacking your weapon's normal damage(Mine was a greatsword so 2d6), Booming Blade's extra damage(3d8 plus 4d8 if they survive and move next turn), Divine Smite(5d8 + 1d8 depending on enemy type), Eldritch Smite(I had 5th level warlock slots so 5d8 plus prone if they live and are huge or smaller) , and Banishing Smite(5d10) into one single giga smite that averages 93 dice damage. You are rolling an attack with advantage that crits on a 19 or 20. Possibly super advantage if you took elven accuracy (I didn't). Spend a Lucky dice to help secure the hit and fish for a critical. You have roughly 30% chance of a crit maybe higher. If you cit you are doubling your dice damage. And path to the grave doubles the total damage. A plus 5 charisma mod, a +3 magic item, +5 charisma damage again from hexblade's curse, Maybe +10 great weapon master if you felt safe is 23 flat damage. For a total average of 418 on a crit. Enemy is probably prone if they live, will take a handful more damage if they try move away and if they have 50 or less hitpoints left after the attack they are banished Impressive but looking at the damage total of a single round skews perceptions a bit. There are many things that can go wrong and you are pouring an awful lot of resources all at once into a single enemy. Only some of those resources come back on a short rest. Things like the enemy casting shield or mirror image can potentially make you miss your one attack wasting path to the grave. The enemy might just teleport or run out of range. You don't level paladin high enough to get nice things like an improved aura or even improved divine smite so most of the day you rely on eldritch blast rather than being a swordsman like you might prefer. If you make a mistake anticipating encounter pacing you might shoot your shot too early or use up short rest resources in one fight and not end up having time to recover before the big fight of the day comes and finds you. The new Fizban's stuff high level enemies can do at the mid point of a fight can also screw you with their second phase starting with full hp regardless of what it was that put them into second phase. A powerful enemy worth dealing this much damage to is also probably capable of dealing you allot of damage in the time it takes to come online and you have to get progressively closer to be in range for all the abilities. An enemy might also learn to counterspell your cantrip attack which would be quite funny. Boots of flight or some other method of flight an be nice to grab if you can. You absolutely should take misty step and counterspell. You don't want your marked foe getting away from you or bring out of reach. Even if you have to delay an extra round of turns. Overall it was a fun character to play. We started at 15 so pit fiends were one the one shot menu when I started. I haven't put much thought into how level level play might feel or progress. It was a very dragon heavy campaign centering on Tiamat so optimizing AC with some armor and taking the shield spell didn't help terribly. Almost everything was throwing dex saves at me which wasn't my forte. I took gift of the chromatic dragon for reactive resistance as a late game feat to improve survivability. I was wearing plate so stealth was not much of an option, was fun to try though. Potentially if we had time to prebuff in a fight adding chromatic infusion could add slightly more damage. Getting ahold of a late game magic sword with extra dice damage similar to a holy avenger also boosted my giga smite even further. Though like any build geared towards doing one specific thing eventually the excitement drops off. It's always cool rolling all those dice and having to take a minute to add up your exterminatus but the steps to get there are the same over and over. Nothing quite compares to the first fight you run through the combo. No one really expecting the final steps that really push it into the obscene and finally releasing the tension built up through the adventuring day, judging when is appropriate, hording your resources for the perfect moment to go all anime charging up before vaporizing the badguy and possibly a building behind him as well.

[@barbiedea4367]

We all should go ahead and share this with our “Forever Paladin” players lol

[@dantedetoussaint209]

Whenever the hell you want, that's when you smite

[@Gafizal1]

astute observations, looking fwd to the Hexadin video... I hope, in the Hexadin vid, you'll compare it to the Soradin in terms of which you feel is more optimal and why.

[@AlwaysGrowing0]

Soradin is more optimial. You get way more spell slots and the hexblade dip does not stop the build from being mad.

[@aldoushuxley5953]

Yup Hexadin > Sorcadin, if you get two short rests as god intended ;)

[@aldoushuxley5953]

@@AlwaysGrowing0 you need a 15 in str for heavy armor, you can achieve that at character creation. The only really important stats are cha and con. Normal Paladins want to may both cha and str, you only need to really invest in one.

[@adamstadick2044]

another one to consider, if an enemy needs to die ASAP. You mentioned this somewhat in 4B but to emphasize, if you are going up against a summoner or the BBEG, or some other threat that becomes far more dangerous the longer they are alive, that’s a good time to smite. If you do this you might not get to 5 when things are already a problem.

[@XeroShifter]

Hey Treantmonk, just found your channel thanks to my own love of utility spells in D&D, and my desire to empower my party members over direct damage. I love that someone has tried to take this all as far as possible. I was hoping that you might have suggestions or a build on a variant of the idea on a ranger. I saw your variant, and a few videos where you mention the ranger, and even checked out your wordpress but I wasn't able to find anything that seemed like a dedicated support ranger. I've recently built something I think should do passably but I'd really be interested in your take on the idea if you ever feel inspired. Excited to subscribe, keep up the good work.

[@michaelmurphy2112]

#6: If you know you're getting a long rest after the encounter, smite away

[@rallyoso2998]

Ran into one such encounter with Dave P in DiA. Things felt desperate, one character had died already, and the party was seriously considering running away instead of progressing. Pulled out the smite, despite it being my last spell slot, and allowed other party members to dispatch the remaining creature more quickly. I felt like it was worth it, but then again, we have an entire dungeon to run through still, and Lay On Hands uses are gone already.

[@andrewgreeb916]

unless that dungeon needs to be cleared now you should be safe to pull back and rest to recoup.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

There are a lot of desperate fights in Dave P campaigns regardless of your optimization. He plays hardball.

[@nathanaelpoole1369]

I had an experiance where the party had a paladin and a grave cleric. Cleric holds action to use path of the grave (ememy has vulnerablity to the next attack), paladin casts blinding smite and charges, intending to smite on top, crits on my dracolich and rolls about 55 damage, doubled due to crit, 110 plus strength amd magic lance 117, and then that doubled due to the grave domain 234... enough to drop an average dracolich... which I allow, he will return and both hate and fear the parties' paladin. And he will not be caught by suprise again... and I design a new magic lance for the paladin as the raw radient energy that was channeled through it transmuted it into something incredably powerful.

[@arsov9885]

Hype is high!

[@Awoken0]

It's ironic that I was watching your Sorcadin videos just before you uploaded this.

[@-POISON-]

When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack.

[@bozieu]

It's really easy to summarize: 1. On critical hits 2. Every other attacks. They are called smite slots for a reason, use them! 💥

[@fisher00769]

I know this is mainly an optimization channel, but I'd bring up flavor still. You're a Paladin. It is satisfying to bring holy justice on the evil guys and smite them for 20 damage overkill. Obviously I don't recommend it if you're not sure you won't need that slot before the next long rest...

[@samuelbroad11]

nice thoughts about the mult-class spell slots and comparing them at 11th, Improved smite at 11th really does seem worth levelling to straight class pally in.

[@KnicKnac]

Interesting enough I'm playing a Glory Paladin so this was helpful. I've been using Smites during critical hits and just casting Divine Favor for extra damage instead. Haven't been given a magical maul yet.

[@tiradegrandmarshal]

Divine Favor is actually inefficient for the most part. You have to hit 4 times with it to surpass the expected damage you'd get from just a 1st-level Divine Smite (4d4 = 10 avg., 2d8 = 9 avg.). From levels 1-4 you'll probably never get to that point, and even at level 5 or higher you likely won't get there until round 3. The only times I ever use Divine Favor are when (a) I'm only facing CR 1/4s and 1/2s where the extra damage might be the difference between one-hit kills and not, and (b) if I'm forced entirely into a ranged combat where I can't smite.

[@edwardgiurgiu6812]

when you said you don't get more smites from multiclassing because you don't wanna spend more than your 4th level spell slot blew my mind. never thought of it like that before

[@jescapnut2003]

Looking forward to hexadin build 👍

[@WTHIWUA]

PSA: Don't forget if you have proficiency with arcana you can make yourself spell scrolls Useful to have more options available than just spell slots at any given moment

[@TheRobversion1]

I'd add one more rule to that smite rule, smite if there's a grave cleric in the party or you are a grave cleric yourself who just used path to the grave. doubling your next attack's dmg is worth your highest level smite.

[@kevinryan9258]

Especially if you also crit that attack.

[@TheRobversion1]

@@kevinryan9258 yup like if a diviner rolled a 20 on a portent die and is ok with using it on you for a massive nuke.

[@spectralfire4842]

What about font of magic? Don’t sorcery points mean multiclassing sorcerer will get you more smite slots?

[@yuvalgabay1023]

White out seeing the videos i can say the answer is like the one for Eldridge BLAST or fire Ball. The answer is YES

[@PunkrockTSG]

(In the tune of SpongeBob's Striped Sweater) "The best time for paladins to cast smite is all the time!"

[@AfroditeBell]

yesterday…I watched Treants Double bladed scimitar video for my Shadar Kai, Veng Pally…and now suddenly this wild video appears…HOW!?

[@evilallensmithee]

1:00 TL;DR: Wrong! That is not how math or grammar work. X is the "total extra radiant damage" S is the "Spell Slot Level used" Y is the number of "d8 for spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8". The antecedent modified by the dependent clause must be the last applicable noun. The 5d8 is applied to This means Y ≤ 5, Y =S-1 If S-1 > 5 then S is false And therefore X = 2d8 + S-1 Means if S=1 X = 2d8 + ((1-1)d8) X = 2d8 + ((0)d8) X = 2d8 And if S = 6 X = 2d8 + ((6-1)d8) X = 2d8 + ((5)d8) X = 2d8 + 5d8 X = 7d8 Now, my opinion is it reads like they meant to say smites deal 1d8 plus 1d8 per level of the spell slot above but in the editing process someone thought it would be simpler to just say what using the lowest level would do and then explain the "up casting".

[@Plamkton]

With sorcerers flexible casting you can burn the higher level slots for nany low level ones.

[@brianfox340]

Well, sorcerer gets you sorcery points, which can be more spell slots (though that may not be a good use all the time)

[@LahyriAurbach]

answering the question of the title: right now.

[@seankeaney823]

As a general rule most of my 1st & 3rd level spells have gone to smites… 2nd level spells tend to be used for their utility… about the only time I use a 4th level slot for a smite is on a critical and then only to a big threat… though I agree that sometimes using a smite on a critical hit is not the most optimal use of the slot, it still feels good to do it.

[@nathanross5527]

I've played one paladin and kept smiting to a minimum. There were definitely combat encounters where it was better to cast certain spells than smite. Even for the final battle of the campaign, my paladin got downed once. We were 20th level and I had two spell slots left. A Wish spell brought me back, and we were fighting two enemies. One was just dispatched. The other, an elder brain controlling 75% of the world's population, hadn't been touched. The rest of the party was ignoring the brain, so my paladin attacked. I didn't figure it on having too much hp, but wasn't super sure on that, so used my last two spell slots for smiting with my attacks. Both attacks hit, one was a crit. If it hadn't been the final fight, I might have hung onto the slots for some healing. But I obliterated the BBEG instead.

[@Sparhafoc]

When must you smite with your paladin? Yes.

[@jeffreycarlson1523]

Great analysis, but I'd add one more thing to consider. Do you know the initiative order, and how many allies are up after you? If you think it's likely your allies will finish up this battle before the monster has another chance to act, don't waste your smite just to get the kill. There's a LOT of things to consider here...how dangerous is the monster's next turn, how confident are you that your allies can finish him, what are the chances of reinforcements showing up or legendary/lair actions going off, and how likely are you to rest after this fight and get the slot back anyways. But if it's say the first fight of the day and there's one wight left that isn't likely to hit anyone, and you've got your excellent ranger and rogue buddies going before the wight....I wouldn't blow a smite here.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

That's true. I often see tactical mistakes because of initiative order. The most common I see is with spirit guardians. The creature is definitely dead at the start of its turn being in the effect, but players will use attacks to actually drop it.

[@claytonmidgett7997]

Strangely enough, pure hexblade is the superior smiter since they can drop 5th level slots for full effect.

[@aldoushuxley5953]

And with ranged weapons and inflicting prone. On the other hand, only once per turn!

[@antondovydaitis2261]

For me, the additional slots from multi-classing are for upcasting low level spells.

[@cameronpowell1864]

Dang, I love paladins

[@The_mekboy_you_deserve]

You can go and build a paladin that buffs himself with spells and uses his smites regularly. You can set up a spirit shroud and still be able to smite, not worrying about concentration for spirit shroud, and you add extra damage from your attacks, it certainly is a better use of a third level spell sloth than a smite. In two turns you gain the same damage from a 3rd level smite, and from then on you only gain more damage. You can put up auras to help aid your party, like aura of vitality, which is a decent bonus action use, you can even pull out a level 1 life domain cleric dip after that, and your party will only be more grateful.

[@peterthompson760]

I would suggest an Elven (pick your favorite Sub Race) Divine Bladesinger Paladin - 8 Bladesinger, 8 Divine Soul, 4 any Paladin. Stack Bestow Curse upcasted to level 5 (Non-Concentration) and Spirit Shroud up cast to what ever. With Bladesinger extra attack you can substitute one of your attacks with a Cantrip, like Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade. Divine Soul among other things gives you Meta Magic. If you take Quicken Spell you can quicken Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade for a third attack, all of which you can Smite. Oh, yeah Magic Missile would be helpful. Point Buy; Strength 13, Dexterity 15, Constitution 11, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 8, and Charisma 13. Racial Bonus; +2 Dexterity and +1 to Intelligence. Suggested Build Order; 6 Bladesinger (Elven Accuracy at level 4), 4 Divine Soul (Quicken Spell/Extended Spell at level 9 and +2 Dexterity at level 10), 2 Paladin, 4 Divine Soul (+2 Intelligence at level 16), 2 Bladesinger (+2 Intelligence at level 18), and 2 Paladin (Resilient Constitution or maybe Tough at level 20).

[@tiradegrandmarshal]

Spirit Shroud only equals a 3rd-level Divine Smite in two turns if you actually hit all of your attacks on those turns. More often than not you're going to miss at least one of those attacks, so realistically you're waiting until round 3 before you match the Smite's damage. There's also the whole thing about damage now being better than damage later; smiting early likely killed that enemy faster and made rounds 3 and later an easier mop-up where whatever extra damage you'd get from SS isn't that big of a deal.

[@Shalakor]

.....You do know that "myth" of multiclassing with a fullcaster for spell slots is based on a 2 level Paladin dip, not 6 levels of Paladin, right? It's kinda more about having more slots to cast/upcast high level spells on top of getting the lower level spell slots sooner, and obviously starting with Paladin for the extra proficiencies on your mostly fullcaster while avoiding being super squishy the first couple of levels where unlucky character deaths are quick and easy to come by even in relatively easy encounters. Basically, avoiding the Oaths on purpose so the main class gets main focus, plus Smites and a Fighting Style. (Bonus points: pick up a Blade cantrip level 1 if you're playing High Elf/High Half-Elf or Magic Initiate Warlock if you have a Feat for both Blade cantrips, or Eldritch Blast for versatility, for an even stronger start of campaign build that alludes to aiming for fullcaster in flavor right out of the gate.) ... It is very hard to pass up on level 6 Paladin still, not going to lie, but every non-Paladin someone makes is also not getting that.

[@peterthompson760]

I would suggest an Elven (pick your favorite Sub Race) Divine Bladesinger Paladin - 8 Bladesinger, 8 Divine Soul, 4 any Paladin. Stack Bestow Curse upcasted to level 5 (Non-Concentration) and Spirit Shroud up cast to what ever. With Bladesinger extra attack you can substitute one of your attacks with a Cantrip, like Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade. Divine Soul among other things gives you Meta Magic. If you take Quicken Spell you can quicken Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade for a third attack, all of which you can Smite. Oh, yeah Magic Missile would be helpful. Point Buy; Strength 13, Dexterity 15, Constitution 11, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 8, and Charisma 13. Racial Bonus; +2 Dexterity and +1 to Intelligence. Suggested Build Order; 6 Bladesinger (Elven Accuracy at level 4), 4 Divine Soul (Quicken Spell/Extended Spell at level 9 and +2 Dexterity at level 10), 2 Paladin, 4 Divine Soul (+2 Intelligence at level 16), 2 Bladesinger (+2 Intelligence at level 18), and 2 Paladin (Resilient Constitution or maybe Tough at level 20).

[@tiradegrandmarshal]

The problem there is you'll be level 8 before you have both Extra Attack and smites (Bladesinger, Valor and Sword Bard all get Extra Attack at 6). Meanwhile, the straight Paladin has been smiting twice in a round for 3 whole levels before you get to.

[@peterthompson760]

​@@tiradegrandmarshal Lol, thank you CAPTAIN OBVIOUS, we all know that AND don't care; we like being more advanced spell casters with more spell slots/better options.

[@jeorde]

Hey Chris! Did you know that Wizards of the Coast put out Errata for Divine Smite a while back that allows it to scale up to 6d8? IIRC, they did some other changes to Paladins then as well. Do you not use that errata?

[@tiradegrandmarshal]

That errata applied specifically to the cap for undead and fiends. It still does not increase the damage for 5th-level slots.

[@jeorde]

@@tiradegrandmarshal Ah, I see my error. That makes sense. Thanks!

[@bobshark666]

This should extend to Eldritch Smite for Warlocks.

[@banan9377]

Honestly for me as a spellcaster main I just treat Smites like any other spells, picking the right spell (or smite) for the current situation you're facing is the key for an effective build, limiting yourself on just one or the other is just dumb because you're removing one of the strengths of spells, which is versatility. I think if you're already good at spellcasting then smites are pretty easy to evaluate since it's just an additional thing you have to consider in addition to the other spells you already have.

[@LikeButton7]

When you should smite: when you crit: end video

[@mrbean3470]

My cousin played a paladin in our campaign, and they were smite slots, not spell slots. But oh the crits... Yowza.

[@--DW]

I would suggest that you will get more spell slots if you take a lot less paladin levels. I know Chris's head will explode if you don't get 6 levels of paladin for the saving throws but 2 paladin with sword or valor bard will leave you just 1 level behind a full caster in slots. If you are really keen to throw out the smites.

[@peterthompson760]

I would suggest an Elven (pick your favorite Sub Race) Divine Bladesinger Paladin - 8 Bladesinger, 8 Divine Soul, 4 any Paladin. Stack Bestow Curse upcasted to level 5 (Non-Concentration) and Spirit Shroud up cast to what ever. With Bladesinger extra attack you can substitute one of your attacks with a Cantrip, like Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade. Divine Soul among other things gives you Meta Magic. If you take Quicken Spell you can quicken Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade for a third attack, all of which you can Smite. Oh, yeah Magic Missile would be helpful. Point Buy; Strength 13, Dexterity 15, Constitution 11, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 8, and Charisma 13. Racial Bonus; +2 Dexterity and +1 to Intelligence. Suggested Build Order; 6 Bladesinger (Elven Accuracy at level 4), 4 Divine Soul (Quicken Spell/Extended Spell at level 9 and +2 Dexterity at level 10), 2 Paladin, 4 Divine Soul (+2 Intelligence at level 16), 2 Bladesinger (+2 Intelligence at level 18), and 2 Paladin (Resilient Constitution or maybe Tough at level 20).

[@tiradegrandmarshal]

OTOH, with such a build, you have to wait until level 8 to have both Extra Attack and smites. The straight Paladin has been smiting twice per round for 3 whole levels before you got to do so.

[@peterthompson760]

@@tiradegrandmarshal Lol, thank you CAPTAIN OBVIOUS, we all know that AND don't care; we like being more advanced spell casters with more spell slots/better options.

[@harrysarso]

i wish the paladin smite got special overflow ability >when killing an enemy but deal 14 extra damage you deal that damage to all enemy creatures adjacent to you or the creature to me that sounds good mechanic story wise and stratigicly

[@josephrion3514]

If you use the spell point system using 2 for 2d8 and 3 for 3d8, so third level slots at 5 for 4d8 really drop off.

[@peterthompson760]

For a Hexadin Build, I would suggest a Shadar-kai 16 Oath of Devotion Paladin and 4 Hexblade build. For a Smite Build I would suggest an Elven Divine Bladesinger Paladin, 8 Bladesinger, 8 Divine Soul, and 4 any Paladin (pick your favorite for Flavor). Alternatively 8 Bladesinger, 8 Divine Soul, 2 Hexblade, and 2 Paladin. You have lots of Spell Slots, and several ways to recuperate/create them.

[@timovandervalk679]

I would love to play a Bladesibger Paladin one day, but those builds will not work unless you roll for extremely high stats. You have to invest in all stats but wisdom for this to become effective and even if you use hexblade you should invest into dex for your armor class, because you can not use Bladesong in Heavy/Medium Armor. Sure, you could just compketely ignore Bladesong and wear heavy armor anyway, but it is the best ability this build has to offer. As I said, I would lije to play a Bladesinger/Paladin, but this creates too many problems inside the build, especially for the sake of just beeibg a "smite" build.

[@peterthompson760]

@@timovandervalk679 The Hexblade version is actually harder and less effective, I know it sounds weird, but overall it's better to focus Dexterity, then Intelligence, and finally Constitution. You leave Strength/Charisma at 13 and dump Wisdom for the first option. I gave the Hexblade version because of the video concept, and it's technically possible with Point Buy but I wouldn't really advise it. When I played the Divine Bladesinger Paladin I did roll well, but it can be done with Point Buy. If you are interested, I can walk you through how I did it and you can see if you want to try.

[@tiradegrandmarshal]

No one cares about builds that are only effective at level 20.

[@WexMajor82]

"ALWAYS" As a DM, I've had my fair share of escaped villains at single digit HP, when a smite from the paladin AT ANY POINT would have finished it.

[@stealedmango]

Hexadin hype!

[@lipeeefl]

Always!

[@aaronhumpert3782]

When deciding to use any other smite besides divine smite, are you basically gambling on if the current attack lands or does it get applied to the next attack that hits?

[@poilboiler]

Smite is like Rage, right? All the time.

[@zEr-ne5ri]

finally paladin optimization.

[@joshuajackson472]

Joining the table in a game at 12th lvl on it's way to 20... There's already a battlerager, grave domain cleric, bard don't remember which valor maybe, wild magic assassin, and moon druid ranger. I'm considering a front liner to stand with the barb, a primary caster, or a spellsword type. Sometimes paladin is on my short list, sometimes not. Also eldKnight, aberrant mind sorc, chain lock, most wiz subclasses... Any ideas or suggestions to help me make up my mind?

[@peterthompson760]

I would suggest an Elven (pick your favorite Sub Race) Divine Bladesinger Paladin - 8 Bladesinger, 8 Divine Soul, 4 any Paladin. Stack Bestow Curse upcasted to level 5 (Non-Concentration) and Spirit Shroud up cast to what ever. With Bladesinger extra attack you can substitute one of your attacks with a Cantrip, like Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade. Divine Soul among other things gives you Meta Magic. If you take Quicken Spell you can quicken Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade for a third attack, all of which you can Smite. Oh, yeah Magic Missile would be helpful. Point Buy; Strength 13, Dexterity 15, Constitution 11, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 8, and Charisma 13. Racial Bonus; +2 Dexterity and +1 to Intelligence. Suggested Build Order; 6 Bladesinger (Elven Accuracy at level 4), 4 Divine Soul (Quicken Spell/Extended Spell at level 9 and +2 Dexterity at level 10), 2 Paladin, 4 Divine Soul (+2 Intelligence at level 16), 2 Bladesinger (+2 Intelligence at level 18), and 2 Paladin (Resilient Constitution or maybe Tough at level 20).

[@joshuajackson472]

@@peterthompson760 that looks great, thanks bunches

[@peterthompson760]

@@joshuajackson472 Thank you and your welcome, I'm glad you like it. I use Extended Spell primarily on; Mage Armor, Aid, and Death Ward. These spells when Extended last 16 hours with no Concentration. I cast them before I Trance, after 4 hours I have my Spell Slots and Sorcery Points back, as well as 12 hours of Spell Duration on all 3 spells.

[@joshuajackson472]

@@peterthompson760 think I'll throw one together now. It scratches all the right itches.

[@peterthompson760]

@@joshuajackson472 I chose Aereni Wood Elf as the Sub Race, so I could get Expertise in Arcana. There is an Arcana Ability Check to learn higher level spells from Scrolls. Good luck, and have fun.

[@thedeaderer8791]

The way I do it is I use my spell slots for spells unless I know that smiting will possibly kill that monster with that hit. Or anytime I crit

[@MrC17f]

Do you think is a good idea to smite and eldritch smit on the sme attack?

[@peterrasmussen4428]

I would add, if you a confident this is the last battle of the day, and you have a lot of spell slots left. Smiting is free from an action economy stand point, and any spell slots not spend at the end of the day are just wasted.

[@Halosty45]

Wait 5th level slots didn't work? I thought the errata said they did but upon re-reading it's what you have shown for the extra damage. I can't see any reason to not allow it, but also the value difference between a 4th and 5th level slot has to be more than 1d8.

[@breathetyb8467]

This video is forward compatible with 2024 imo

[@chiepah2]

A long video for "Use it all the time." I wonder how he will fill the rest of the time.

[@commentary4298]

What are your thoughts on making utility scrolls and saving actual slots for smites? Keeping 2-3 scrolls of go to spells seems wise right?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Depending on the down time you have and how the DM handles crafting, I think it's a good idea.

[@peterthompson760]

Hopefully you can buy them as well, and of course the dream would be a Ring of Spell Storing/Pearl of Power/Spell Gems (ask your Game Master).

[@odedkhazon8542]

Doesn’t the smite actually work with a 5th level spell slot now for an extra d8 over 4th level? I saw that in an Errata a couple of years back that changed the sentence to be “to a maximum of 6d8” Edit: changed a spelling mistake in the “”

[@TreantmonksTemple]

The errata allows a 4th level slot to do 6d8 against undeads or fiends, the cap is still a 4th level slot.

[@odedkhazon8542]

@@TreantmonksTemple Ah, Thanks for the clarification! :D

[@grecojones]

Balladin is more like it! 😃

[@bikzimusmaximus5250]

The % damage increase on lower level smite against undead and fiends is illusory. It obviously comes out to a d8 damage increase no matter what. Like yeah you're increasing the damage by a larger percentage, but you're doing that because you're increasing a smaller amount of damage by the same amount as you would increase a higher spell level smite. That's not implying that you should use a higher level spell to smite undeads and fiends, just that what spell slot you use for your smite doesn't matter for that feature as long as you do use smite.