When Trauma Leads to Villainy

Villains come in all shapes an sizes, and from all backgrounds. But increasingly there is an element that appears to be shared by villains of all stripes: trauma. Through examples of clear cut cases where trauma directly leads to villainous actions, to murkier instances where trauma is a highlighted factor but there may be more at play, to the times when trauma causes even heroes to make bad mistakes. Let's talk about how trauma is framed in our entertainment, and why it's a bit of a problem.
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[@shaunmccomish8572]

Traumatic origin stories for villains can be a tricky thing. The well meaning desire of writers to have their antagonists come across as rounded or sympathetic can have them handling sensitive issues in a problematic way. The same is ironically true of heroes as well. Whether it be their parents, their home planet or Uncle Ben; loss plays a crucial part in many a superhero origin story.

[@Elwaves2925]

I can see that and even putting aside making them rounded and sympathetic, just making a villain bad because....well they're bad is kinda meh for most cases. For me, writers need to use something other then trauma to explain why a villain is a villain. I see nothing wrong with having a backstory where they simply like doing bad things, where evil is what gives them the most joy.

[@calebmarmon1310]

I feel like an underlying implication is that (almost) all heroes and villains have had traumas that sent them down the path they are on. And while the natural temptation of trauma is to resort to evil or selfish means/ends, you can, with the force of will/good values/friendship, turn it into a drive for good. But either way, great trauma will lead to great motivation. Which can make for compelling storytelling, but maybe has bad implications about real world trauma, at least in aggregate.

[@christianc.christian5025]

@@Elwaves2925 One of the best examples of “They’re just evil because they are” is in John Carpenter’s original ‘Halloween’ and it is remarkable how many people - moviemakers, fans, etc - there are who want to ruin that “origin” with bad explanations, causes and whatnot. Like you said, it’s really difficult to do well. But I also think that a sympathetic villain can be as well.

[@Elwaves2925]

@@christianc.christian5025 Good choice and yeah, the remakes do try to ruin that original origin. Thankfully they pale in comparison, at least the few I've seen do. No doubt that it's not easy to do either well, I'd just appreciate the effort of them trying something else. Of course if it did work well, everything after would just copy it and the wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round.....😆

[@adamdavis1648]

@@christianc.christian5025 Out of curiosity, do you think there are people in real life who do terrible things for no reason (that is, real people who are "evil just because they are")? If so, how common do you think that is?

[@wreckitremy]

Trauma is so so tricky. It feels like we bounce between extremes when it's involved. Using that batman line "it's just you" and the comment of "it's an excuse" as an example. That is something that gets said to trauma victims for anything and everything they do, from being triggered, to standing up for themselves in a completely healthy way. Yes, trauma as the reason and this unhealthy pattern is a thing. But it's at one end, and things like "you're just as bad as they are" and the obsession with sparing the main villain on the other end It's like movie makers took the criticism fueling things like "magneto was right" and this unhealthy pattern is where they took it.

[@mjela4516]

With Wanda it was so abrupt. Mostly because Wandavision finale made her out to be sympathetic and just misguided. And suddenly she's hunting a girl to kill her. That's very out of left turn

[@Elwaves2925]

I fully agree and how Wanda (as a character) was treated in Multiverse Of Madness is my biggest issue with that film. The "it's the Darkhold doing it" excuse is pretty weak IMO, given Wanda's state at the end of Wandavision. The Darkhold was effectively a weak MacGuffin so they could get to the next point without any real explanation.

[@AtomicHaven]

Her trauma wasn't abrupt, but her switch to evil was. She lost pietro, blew up a building of innocent people, got imprisoned for Civil War, lost Vision, lost her kids, but she dealt all through that. It kinda seemed like she snapped but we never see that moment where she snaps

[@Elwaves2925]

@@AtomicHaven Yes and just to be clear, it's her switch that we're referring to.

[@nicka3697]

@@AtomicHaven I think that's the whole point though. Did she snap or was she corrupted? The darhold is supernatural and extremely magical and powerful. I would like to have seen dome scenes where it was seeping into her psyche and she was trying to resist it but I guess they went for the surprise of she is the baddie so skipped that. And then of course the surprise didn't work for most people anyway because they'd either read the comics or seen the trailers.

[@XxMusicxKelseyxX]

Yeah I feel like it completely undid her whole entire character arc. She regretted hurting people and was really remorseful one minute and now we're just expected to believe she's turned into a rampaging murderer? It was extremely frustrating to watch.

[@adammyers7383]

Trauma isn’t a problem. *unprocessed* trauma tends to lead to issues. Most stories that tackle trauma don’t get that. A few of my favorite stories with trauma: Steven Universe (Future, specifically), Legend of Korra, and Jessica Jones

[@robinschicha4712]

Interesting enough some iconic characters have almost the same trauma backstory: like Harvey Dent and Dr. Robert Bruce Banner. But one had the destiny to become a Villain 🦹🏻‍♂️ and the other to become a Superhero 🦸‍♂️. It is the role they have to play in the Story. So they can not change, they stuck.

[@DeonTain]

About the Darkhold, blaming actions on the Darkhold is like blaming alcohol for the actions of a drunk driver. Yes they were impaired when they screwed up but they became impaired by choice.

[@kaicreech7336]

I _love_ how Doctor Strange didn't even hesitate before reaching for it. He'd heard about how he'd caused an Incursion, he _saw_ how nutso the other Strange was, and he was like, "sucks, bro, gimme."

[@nicka3697]

The darkhold is evil incarnate. Alcohol is a depressant that impairs motor functions and removes inhibitions. They aren't quite the same thing the one ring can be resisted for some time by a really extraordinary hobbit, Alcohol consumption can be moderated by me.

[@DeonTain]

@@nicka3697 The point is impaired judgement is not an excuse for bad behavior if you knowingly allowed your judgement to become impaired.

[@gregcourtney751]

@@kaicreech7336 well that was getting at the films more subtle and well done character bits: Dr. Strange's tendency to go to drastic possibly dangerous solutions thinking only he can fix the problem. Also in this case knowing another version of himself did it and it backfired even. When he decides to trust chavez to do her part it proves he is one of the "better" stranges. He is able to lookvbeyond his ego and see the less drastic solution that was always there.Essentialy hes one of tge few "bad" versions of him. This is a thing in the comics too. He tends to make dangerous deals for more power in times of crisis and once tried to recreate las vegas with disastarous results, mephisto taking it over, to deal with guilt. Oh and when Wanda did a similar thing by accidently bringing back the millions of dead mutants as zombies from a genocide he scolded her without one line about his similar tendency. So that line from wanda works for the comics too.

[@aivylotus4583]

I think Critical Role campaign 2 makes a very interesting point here: "Pain doesn't make people, it's love that makes people. The pain is inconsequential. It's love that saves them." That is said by a player character to one of the big bads in reaction to his world view that it is necessary to torture his students and break them to make them stronger.

[@the_aberration7398]

I think many storytellers have lost sight of the fact that sympathetic villains are not the only fleshed-out and well-written villains, and that villains created by trauma are not the only sympathetic villains. It is possible to create villains who were made villainous by reasons we understand and that make sense without those causes of villainy to be trauma. And villains don’t always have to have a completely understood cause to their villainy, like Dr. Emilia from Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts, who, as Nathaniel mentioned, didn’t become villainous due to one clear reason. Her villainous nature was probably caused by many influences over the course of her life, combined with genetic factors. We only get a glimpse at some of those influences, and she still serves her purpose for the show really well.

[@cassie6146]

One Piece is actually an interesting counterpoint to the "trauma makes villains" because every single member of the main cast has endured horrific trauma in their past that has not only not turned them into villains, but it had a major role in shaping them into the brave and kind-hearted pirates they are in the present (not to say that enduring trauma always makes you a better person or has some grand purpose, sometimes to quote one Diane Ngyuen "it's not good damge, it's just damage"). Plus when that trauma resurfaces in the form of something from their past coming back, they drop everything to help each other through it both emotionally and the tried and true Shonen method of punching it in the face.

[@arthurpprado]

This trope really upsets me, especially when it's about the loss of loved ones driving someone to become a villain. I can understand why they would try and get revenge but not why they would decided to murder unrelated people when it could make others go through the same pain the villain did. I've lost a lot of loved ones myself and I swear, the thought of someone else going through grief is gut-wrenching. If nothing else, because I've been there and I know how bad it is

[@catbowserfantasytherapist3132]

I think the key to making these work is to make the viewer/reader realize that while trauma might be an explanation for why they feel so passionately on something, the character is still capable of knowing right from wrong and they make the CHOICE to choose villainy. You can be sympathetic towards a person, feel empathy for them about what they’ve been through…and still call them out on their inappropriate actions.

[@spenx09]

I think we want to understand why people become evil, but in real life we actually see lots of people who turn their trauma into a purpose and fight so that nobody else has ti go through the same (school shooting survivors fighting for gun control, rape victims coming forward, etc), so, yeah, trauma alone isn't it. Great video

[@heatherhaven1268]

I liked how season one of Jessica Jones dealt with trauma. Jessica, Trish, Luke, AND Kilgrave all had trauma, and all handled it so differently.

[@gregcourtney751]

Because abuse, abusers, and the trauma from abuse were the major themes. Even most of the side charcters deal with it and show abuse has different versions. It was designed to deal with those themes and not a side theme like in some adventure stories.

[@jessehenson8923]

Everyone has trauma. The difference between a hero and a villain is how they handle it.

[@markpostgate2551]

Batman is the product of trauma too, after all, and so is Dick Grayson's Robin.

[@jessehenson8923]

@@markpostgate2551 every Robin, excepting Tim, is the product of trauma. Later Tim gets his own trauma, too.

[@markpostgate2551]

@@jessehenson8923 I'm not au fait enough with batlore but that is what I would expect.

[@HotDogTimeMachine385]

I just wanna repeat "Stop vilifying trauma victims" until everyone sees how problematic the trope is.

[@ryandyer3466]

Well DC’s got quite a job to do with the Batman Comics,

[@raymondbermudez555]

I feel Wanda going full on murderous antagonist was very jaring for me. Wanda killing people who she clearly outclass when it comes to power without even attempting to non-lethally incapacitate or neutralize her enemies seems to nonsensical. Watching this movie in theaters, I was constantly shocked when Wanda took a life without remorse. It was surely a shake-up for the Scarlet Witch.

[@Rmlohner]

Trauma itself may not be the right word for it, but one movie that really comes to mind with this kind of thing is Falling Down, where for most of its length the movie is deliberately trying to dupe you into rooting for the guy who is by any objective measure the story's villain, by getting you to sympathize with the indignities he's suffered and having most (though notably not all) of his victims be jackasses who you're happy to see get hurt. And then the final scene pulls the rug out as he and the story's true hero finally meet, and the hero's argument for why he's the villain is so logically sound that he's forced to accept it and can only say "I'm the bad guy? How'd that happen?" The line I especially love is "That doesn't give you any special right to do what you did today," which I occasionally even forcibly remind myself of when I find myself getting too angry over something.

[@MRdaBakkle]

thank you for making this video, one thing that kind of relates is the right wings desire to paint mental issue as the reason for horrible shootings. It is a way to make mentally ill people as evil. Pop culture also relates to this and builds off our own biases.

[@adamdavis1648]

Perhaps it's a way to frame mentally ill people as evil, but I think it's more likely a way to deflect attention away from the problem of easy access to guns and blame anything else for the shootings. The implication about mentally ill people probably comes from an honest misconception on their part fueled by exactly the type of fiction writing discussed in this video.

[@benw9949]

Not just villains. Heroes often get traumatic backstories / origin stories too. Currently, it seems to be a fad to put all the characters through the wringer for their prior background and for their current stores.

[@Tamisday]

Regarding the Maleficent example, I was reminded of how lazy the writing for that was. “And her name was Maleficent” had me in stitches. You want to do an anti-hero backstory about how the real villain was the trauma we made along the way and you are telling me her light-fae parents named her “doing evil or harm,” and that it wasn’t a mantle she took on later in life? The trope is so tired not even Prince Phillip could wake it.

[@Serje1227]

Uh, I always viewed the collective use of trauma for villains as an exploration in human empathy. It implies that the villain can be reasoned with, and that if the hero approaches them the right way, the conflict could in theory be peacefully resolved. I also took it as a reoccurring lesson for the audience. Hurt people hurt people, not always of course but it happens. So I always viewed most comic villains' traumatic backstories (especially in their movie/tv adaptations) as a reminder to treat people well. To remember that strangers on the street are people with their own baggage and to treat them kind. You don't go through life without being traumatized, but with a good safety net of human empathy and understanding, life is easier to live

[@ItsMeHarry]

I do get your frustration with this trope and I do agree to an extent, I think the want to bring depth to a villain is something I do think as a premise is a great idea but I do think it creates problematic tropes within it, and I think ultimately having a villain you don't know about or who is just a straight up malicious person works too and the depth comes from their performance and characterisation, not just their backstory. I mean the Weeping Angels as an example is a good concept of a straight up malicious and villainous species with no links to trauma or mental illness or anything that have little backstory, and yet they're widely regarded as one of the most iconic Doctor Who villains and certainly are the most iconic created from the revival onwards. Not to say they are without issues, but they are a great example to point to. I know you pointed out Heath Ledger's Joker before, and I think that there's the obvious mental illness overtones with his interpretation, but equally we never actually had and confirmation he wasn't just a malicious person using a guise or a smaller part, and even then his backstory varied a lot each time he mentioned it deliberately. I personally do think a lot of people mistake a sympathetic backstory to suddenly make a good character, where it is more than just their backstory but also their actions in the present and characterisation. I mean sure, Batman lost his parents, but that isn't why people care for him and people largely prefer Batman once he's moved past the initial trauma drive and becomes more focused on being a good vigilante. A tougher balance to strike than people give credit imo

[@AtodaK]

I agree with you. The use of trauma as a motivator for villainy is both overused and harmful in much the same way that the overuse of mental illness has been. Not two days ago I spent an hour explaining to people that mental illness is not a cause for mass shooters. They insisted it was. They were trying to be nuanced by saying things like "of course I don't mean things like depression, I mean the dangerous ones like schizophrenia". Which also doesn't make people violent. They got angry when I pointed out that their understanding of mental illnesses like schizophrenia mirrored fictional depictions that didn't resemble the actual conditions. But it's true. People see it in movies consistently enough that they start to believe the movies are showing something with a relationship to reality and it leads them to make bad decisions. And to use it as a convenient excuse to do nothing about social problems that could be addressed if we had the will as a community.

[@SimberPlays]

I appreciate you pointing out how this trope makes it seem like trauma will lead someone to become the villain and how harmful that is for people experiencing trauma and the effects of that. There's this idea that giving the villain a mental illness makes them more understandable, but it really just stigmatizes mental illness

[@michaelpeacock4228]

Already I can say it's a delicate balancing act of giving a character a horrid background to sympathize with, and STILL see them as a threat in their adult lives... without making them some sort of "cool anti-hero". (I'm looking at you, Geoff Johns...)

[@stames6678]

I know you say it every time, but I really needed that “you are beautiful, you are valid, and you are loved.” today. Thank you

[@Mangacide]

Before they passed, my spouse and I would talk sometimes about how losing one of us would be the other one's villain origin story. It was half joking but I have the unfortunate privilege of knowing how deep the feeling of loss some of those characters has is. So now the joke is "God was smart not to put me in a universe where superpowers exist". Then again I have a load of chronic illness issues, so I probably wouldn't have the spoons for universe breaking villainy anyway.

[@tsuritsa3105]

I have chronic illness issues as well and have made similar statements. I know precisely how you feell.

[@PeriLlwynog]

In terms of the analysis, I have to agree completely (in `plain English' anyway). The subtext of trauma tropes is definitely legitimately rooted in trauma, but the focus on mental illness and survival definitely breaks down on what is considered "acceptable" in DSM-5/Psychiatric Trauma. There are very, very few traumagenic villains (or heroes, honestly) that treat the trauma respectfully. This is part of why The Sandman (Neil Gaiman/Vertigo version) is my favorite *traumatic anti-hero*; there are so many parts of the original Vertigo run that are clearly, clearly, clearly things that have aged poorly outside of the late 80s/early 90s British/American experience of the Cold War. But what makes the Endless from that line so interesting (to me, as a late 30s 'Millennial' white-passing queer person born in the Southern United States of America) is that all of them are both absolutely necessary and absolutely broken as entities/people despite their deeper history/lore ties to the rest of DC/Vertigo Comics lore. Without getting too much into why that era of comics writing was so grim and dark (it's mostly the history; if you like to read, consider why _The Watchmen_, _Sandman_, _Animal Man_, _Spawn_, and _Batman_/_Batgirl_/_NightWing_ all had complete breakdowns but did not lead to the complete destruction of the DC Universe/Multiverse in the same way that the Superboy Prime stuff in _Infinite Crisis_/_Crisis on Infinite Earths_ lands versus how the film version of the Marvel Cinematic Universe has handled the trauma that's deeply imbedded in the NYC-focus of the movies so far. (My belief: almost all of those lines had then-little known but now famous British writers, not just Americans). Even though the films are often shot in the state of Georgia/California/New York, they dwell so much on the Global War on Terror (to use the American term for post 2001/09/11 conflicts) that they make every villain and hero (even the cosmic ones) feel like they are *mentally ill* rather than just reacting as people to realities. Tony Stark is based in NYC in most comics stories, but Robert Downey Jr's portrayal felt so LA that I still can't believe that his version isn't based in the West Coast, not New York/New England. This is part of why I love team up lines (like Avengers/GLA/Young Avengers/Runaways) in Marvel so much more in the comics than I do in the MCU. The MCU movies are *astounding productions* and mostly better written/directed than any comics live action films I've seen in the last 20 years. But their approach to introducing the characters who are dominated/controlled by their trauma is still less adroit than the DC Animated Batman/Superman/Static Shock/JLA/JLU of the 1990s. Personally? I find the need to show complete features of absolutely incredible length to be a bigger threat to the genre than choice of animated versus live action versus "motion comic" or plain ol' monthly titles. 3 hours plus of film? Make that a TV show! The writers won't know how the characters and performance gel until well into the run. 7 episodes that start off deeply interesting, strange and amazing, but doesn't gel because of the final two episodes (hi WandaVision)? Don't use COVID production issues as an excuse: budget for time to rewrite and reshoot the last few episodes *while the show is being produced and streamed*. Animal Man's "Coyote Gospel" still speaks to me as an American that grew up in the US South/Southwest before running away and surviving homelessness to earn a B.Arts in the wrong field/craft in New York City. As someone who lived only briefly in 日本の四国の高知県, visiting Hiroshima opened my eyes to the nature of heroes and villains on a global scale than all the obsessive reading of TTRPG/LARP books had gotten me in 17 years. We don't need more Batman or Bat-Men, we need more Oracles and Nightwings. In Werewolf: the Apocalypse terms: we have but one Earth on which to live. All of us (in terms of things that may someday understand this English Language Literary Criticism) will commit sins or faults or through our actions and inactions allow people to suffer. No one person, mythical or comic, can make the decision to help. We all break down sometime; so, in my best Spider-Verse: I want more Spider-Gwens, more Miles Morales, more Captain Marvels, more Ms. Marvels that look like people who struggle to reconcile their culture with the realities of being excessively policed. As this is a KZbin comment and not actually a real essay until read aloud: I think I'm agreeing with Our Dear Host Council of Geeks completely, but can't fit this TED Talk into the margins of my notes on Wiles' proof of Fermat's Last Theorem. And that's why I think of myself as a Whovian and a Trek fan, but still feel exhausted every time I have to have this discussion in June (which is pride month, now, but also the Month of my Brith). I have a face for radio and a voice for bullshitting, but as Mr. Gaiman likes to remind us all: writers are liars. Especially non-fiction ones.

[@shannonchristie-wickham8453]

This is interesting to me. I have an adopted daughter with a trauma diagnosis, RAD. she is 14 now and can make better choices, we try to work on this. It doesn't have to ruin your life

[@TubezThe1]

I feel like many people have taken the phrase "Hurt people hurt people" and taken it from an exploration of trauma to using it as a justification for their actions.

[@nagillim7915]

In all honesty i've never considered Carrie the villain of the movie. Even in the finale i still empathise with her.

[@tysondennis1016]

She felt more like a victim than a villain

[@HotDogTimeMachine385]

On paper she is an example of a villain who snaps and kills people, but I'm pretty sure everyone who's seen the story goes "Yay, good for her."

[@nagillim7915]

@@HotDogTimeMachine385 - i do think during the prom rampage she's had some kind of mental break. The camera work, the body language, the facial expression, all point to Carrie not being at home anymore. I think from the minute the blood falls and everyone laughs until she gets home she's in some kind of fugue state. It's only when she gets in the bath that she begins to come back around to a more normal state of consciousness.

[@HotDogTimeMachine385]

@@nagillim7915 Oh, yeah, I understand that. I'm just saying that while you could describe her as a villain based on Vera's video, she is absolutely a victim with completely expected and valid reaction.

[@Aquilavolpe]

A really good example of this trope is explored in the Treasure Island prequel show 'Black Sails' specifically with the Captain Flint character. What I really love about that show is that Flint is clearly the protagonist, but he usually would be the villain.

[@CaylasCapsule]

I feel like most people irl have some sort of trauma once they get past a certain age. It’s weird to me when adult characters, whether heroic or villainous or somewhere in between, don’t have trauma in their backstories. But it seems like trauma tends to get focused on more when the character is a villain, which is a shame because we all overcome trauma, so having more positive examples of how to do that would be cool.

[@cisalzlman]

Batman in general is a good place foe trauma villains as Batman (and Robin in some cases) is always there as an example of a positive response to trauma as he uses his trauma to fuel his heroism

[@lucypreece7581]

If you want a recent example of Trauma leading to villainy or villainous actions then look to Allison Hargreaves in Season 3 of The Umbrella Academy. She just spent time in Texas in the 60's unable to speak as a woman of colour during the civil rights movement and then she is thrust into a new timeline where she had to lose her husband and her daughter no longer exists. I would definitely say that Allison is a villain in the season. She full blown murders Harlan in cold blood, SA's Luther and then makes a deal with Reginald that will essentially kill everyone else all for a similar motivation to Wanda Maximoff of getting to a timeline where she could be with her daughter. I didn't like at the end of season 3 how Allison's actions were swept under the carpet and just not addresses and she was essentially rewarded for her behaviour by getting Raymond and Claire back. She needed to properly deal with her trauma and then needs to be held accountable for her actions. I didn't like what they did with Allison in season 3. It really bugged me. Like all the siblings have Trauma. The Umbrella's were raised by Reginald who is a very terrible parent. Luther was essentially abandoned on the moon for years, Diego was abused and bullied by Reginald for his stammer and also had to see the body of his former girlfriend laying dead on the floor, Klaus was locked in a morgue and forced to see dead people and also went back in time to the Vietnam war and watched his lover die right in front of him, Five lived through hundreds of years and then has to deal with travelling back in time into a younger body, Viktor was locked away isolated and had their powers suppressed for years and then all of them also lost their version of Ben. Not to mention dealing with 3 Apocalypse events one after the other. Allison's trauma does not justify her actions. All the siblings had trauma. They never did what she did.

[@bobtheskutterbot]

Hopefully season 4 addresses it...

[@JumbleJammyJokes]

100% agreed!

[@SomniRespiratoryFlux]

In terms of explorations of trauma, both villainous and otherwise, I feel like Psychonauts and its sequel deserve some attention. While I'm sure they could have done better in some ways, especially the original being a bit "edgy mid-00's" at times, both games really do ultimately end up hitting the point that everyone has some degree of trauma, and that most of the time a person broken by trauma is just broken and not a villain. The villain in the original is still kinda shady and bent on military conquest in 2, the implication to me being that the trauma you resolve in the first game more made him willing to do bad things to do things he already would have done anyway. (Less "trauma made me want world domination" and more "trauma made me indifferent to the morality of stealing kids' brains to do it".) The main antagonist in 2 in particular is implied to have had very little trauma, and is a villain because of who he is more than anything. (He also gets a similar thing to what you said about Kipo, where he doesn't get a "we can talk him out of it" like every other antagonist in the series so far, because there isn't a way to reach him - he's just a self-centered asshole, plain and simple.) The closest there is to a clear-cut "villain born of trauma" is the anti-villainous main threat in 2, and there are enough hints that that resulted more from the circumstances leading up to the traumatic breaking point, as well as enough counterexamples in both games to make it avoid the issue of unintentionally blaming trauma alone for atrocities (at least in my judgment). It's a really surprisingly nuanced appraisal of mental health and trauma, and you can tell that especially in 2 the focus was on stressing compassion for trauma victims. I won't try to claim it's perfect, but... I just really like the game and want to gush about it doing this kind of thing right, where so many people use it serviceably at best and with way less consideration for the undertones of it all.

[@borjankosarac3645]

I remember stating that Doctor Strange: MoM was basically just doing a version of the Dark Phoenix Saga, which itself was a massive issue in the same vein as Carrie White. That not just trauma, but often really powerful female characters seem to inevitably court villainy so often… Urgh.

[@HotDogTimeMachine385]

To be fair Wanda is essentially Feige's Jean. He can't use the X-men so he was petty. Wanda's powers were more or less just telekinesis like Jean for most of her scenes.

[@TheDCbiz]

But to be fair, unlike the original phoenix saga and more like avengers vs x men, the make character is also showed as being just the same. The illumaniti was even more worried about villian strange than villain Wanda. And strange does villianous actions like using the darkhold to fight Wanda. Even sinister strange is a villian strange with rhe darkhold.

[@danielgonzalez-pf5el]

I feel like people fail to recognize that Wanda was never a hero. Having powers and being an official member of the avengers doesn’t make you a hero, it just makes you a social worker with a flashy costume and powers. Wanda never showed any signs of heroism. I’m the MCU she always struck me as an emotionally unstable lost child who the avengers let tag along cus she is too powerful to be left unsupervised. Even the moments when she was the most proactive were when she was out for blood, finding Ultron and torturing him after killing Pietro, going after Thanos as soon as she was brought back and other few moments when she decides what to do instead of following another real hero’s lead. Wanda was a hero turned villain, she was a ticking time bomb that finally went off after getting the Darkhold.

[@evaserration6223]

For me, my favourite example is Jinx from Arcane. From what I gather prior to Arcane, Jinx from League of Legends was a fun one dimensional manic pixie nightmare girl in the mold of early Harley Quinn. In Arcane it could've easily been a throwaway detail but instead seems like the entire show hinges on the mountain of trauma she has experienced. But for me it gets away with it because the circumstances behind her initial turn and where she ends up feels so tragically inevitable due the world she came from, the current volatile social climate she lives in now and the people around her just being who they are in response to this world.

[@Concreteowl]

The dark hold isn't just an evil book. It's addictive self medication. She is owed but the power from it makes her feel entitled. There is a mountain temple prepared for her from the beginning of the Earth. And she was already loaded with trauma, the death of her parents and brother. The experiments of HYDRA. Everytime she catches a break the universe kicks her in the teeth. It's a shame there isn't a universe where Vision is alive and raising the children alone because his Wanda is in a coma.

[@marti9734]

Agreed with everything you said

[@tsuritsa3105]

I want to talk a minute about Billy Butcher and Homelander. Both of them have trauma. Both of them are violent, violent men. I'm of the opinion that Butcher is heading towards no good end. But I don't think the show is using their trauma as a vehicle to excuse their actions. Rather, in Butcher I think it is being used to show how he has succumbed to the cycle of violence instead of breaking it. It's his tragedy, not his explanation. And in Homelander it is not shown in order to make us sympathize with him but rather so we understand how he can be so completely disconnected from everyone around him, without for a second making his actions seem acceptable in any way. Now, the Boys is a long form show that has the time to develop it very, very well - and it's a satire of the mediums we are mostly talking about here. But I think they are handling the trauma every character goes through very well. One of the key elements is that every character is shown responding to trauma in different ways, which means it is showing that there are always options for the traumatized person in how they choose to respond. Movies have a shorter run time, traditionally to do this. The MCU should be held to a higher standard, as their characters have years to develop on screen across different movies and shows. Wanda is a complex case that I would have to write an essay to really get at what I think about it.

[@bobtheskutterbot]

As I watched this, I kept thinking of insightful comments I could add about Farscape... and then you mentioned Farscape... and Spider-man.... and then you mentioned Spider-man. Ah well, I have nothing insightful to add it seems... Except to note that I would have talked about John and Aeryn in Farscape rather than Scorpius. Their trauma added to them as people and created a strength in them by season 4 and the PK wars that wasn't there in season 1. Seeing trauma used without a lazy "it leads to villainy" message is really very healing to watch. Which is why I keep going back every few years to rewatch Farscape. (I did by the way listen to a lot of your Farscape podcasts interleaved with a recent rewatch (series 4 + PK wars) and loved them.) And this is also why I count myself as a Spider-man fan. A really frequent criticism of the MCU Spider-man is that he didn't have the trauma and suffering that many fans see as integral to his personality. The latest film was loved in part for the multiverse aspects but also for introducing the trauma to Tom Holland's Peter. Without this, he's just a kid with accident powers (and in the MCU, hi tech gadgets) which doesn't connect so well to the audience. Bottom line... we all experience trauma. We need examples of it being integrated into a full and healthy person.

[@paddywan]

I think that more interesting villains are when trauma isn't highlighted. It was perfectly captured in "We need to talk about Kevin" where a seemingly ordinary person with a nice life and a loving family just is a monster or whn villanry is circumstantial and more related to power etc like in "The stanford prison experiment". Yes, I see the irony that Ezra Miller is a star in both examples but it doesn't relate to the point.

[@TeresaShiho]

Your little bit about Syndrome, and how he uses his trauma as his reason for being a villain - but it's not WHY he's like that - reminds me of a quote from a Teen Wolf villain: "You don't have to be psychotic to be a killer, you just need a reason." To me, it's saying that ANYONE is capable of doing horrible things if they can justify it to themselves. And so I often find myself asking, "is it believable that this villain/character would act this way, for this reason, given what we know about them?" (Great video btw, I love thinking about villains and what makes them tick)

[@palacsintakat]

Villains because of greed and power issues >>>> demonizing trauma. It's more realistic

[@palacsintakat]

Like iron man 1 is a PERFECT example of a good villain. He’s evil because he wants the power and money Tony has and it corrupted his morals

[@palacsintakat]

Also thanks for the heart ❤️ this was my first video from you and I instantly subbed and am going down a channel rabbit hole haha 😊

[@darlalathan6143]

Yeah, just use true crime and gangsta rap lyrics for villain motivation, lol!

[@CyberYork123]

I was delighted by your introduction. It took all the arguments I would have had and got them out of your way, so you can make that new point. And I agree. Using trauma as a story device can not only become messy, tricky and simplifing complex issues. It also can shape the idea that trauma is likely the reson for bad actions, when it's not. And although I really overall enjoyed "Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness" it would be great to have a Superhero Movie, where the plot deals with a hero with trauma helps an antagonist to deal with their traume before they become a supervillian. While for the matter of tension and conflict terrible things happens around them due to life being as hard and sometimes horrible as it is.

[@benjamintillema3572]

Multiverse of Madness also does the "hero is flawed/made a mistake because of trauma" thing as well. Dr Strange is confronted with his "evil" self, someone who used the Darkhold, like Wanda, for selfish porpoises that resulted in the destruction of his universe. The very first thing the two of them, "evil" and "good" Strange, talk about is not about what happened to the universe in decay around them, not about America Chavez, no. The first thing is how they both lost a sister when they were children. The film has hinted that the main flaw Strange has as a character is that he always needs to be in control. And before introducing the audience to perhaps the worst version of that impulse the movie stops to shoehorn in a tragic backstory to explain it all away. Dr Strange is a deeply flawed character. He wouldn't operate on patients if there was reason to believe they wouldn't survive because that would break his "record" as a surgeon. He's dismissive of everyone around him. He only wants to use magic to fix his hands and get back to his old life. When he's told there's a threat against the universe he doesn't really care until he's the only one standing in the way of it and annihilation. He breaks the rules and uses magic for selfish porpoises. He refuses to treat Wong with respect, especially when he takes the title of Sorcerer Supreme. He could have checked in on Wanda, someone he knows is a powerful witch who has abused her power already, but didn't. He is in many ways just as selfish and messed up as Scarlet Witch but the movie doesn't want to discuss that so it distracts you with a sad tale and moves on.

[@SanjayMerchant]

All these characters becoming supervillains due to trauma, I feel cheated that all I got was a mood disorder and a guilt complex.

[@leacwm]

I fought in a bigger war than you will ever know. I did worse things than you could ever imagine. And when I close my eyes I hear more screams than anyone could ever be able to count! And do you know what you do with all that pain? Shall I tell you where you put it? You hold it tight till it burns your hand, and you say this. No one else will ever have to live like this. No one else will have to feel this pain. Not on my watch!

[@drewlytle2281]

While everyone brings up Starlord in Infinity War, I think you could equally point out Thor as well. He could have killed Thanos but the Trauma of what he did to Loki had him wanting to exact a more methodical and painful revenge. All while he was relishing in Thanos' suffering, Thanos rather then getting back decided to finish his plan and hit the snap. I say Starlord and Thor both screwed up and could have ended this if not for their past pain. You could also point out some more classical examples for this topic. Obvious one is Ahab from Moby Dick, the Trauma of losing his leg pushes him to kill this one particular whale (albeit a rather unique one). It's the Trauma that pushes him to seek revenge at any and all expense. While I haven't read the book, some adaptions of Frankenstein has had the titular doctor suffer the Trauma of his mother's death and other death along the way that in turn leads him to this path of vowing to conquer death and create life as he does.

[@youtubeuserremainsanonymou9022]

Lex Luthor totally did not need familial abuse. He is fine taking after his dad as a ruthless capitalist even if he acted like he might be slightly different when he was younger

[@IdiotinGlans]

I think Arcane has found a good way to avoid saying trauma makes you a villain. EVERYONE (except, argurably, Caitlyn) in this show has trauma, good people or bad. While one of main arcs of the story is how one character became a mad bomber type villain and it is clear trauma played a HUGE role in it, at least two other heroic characters have the trauma from vry same events and did not turn out that way.

[@Percival917]

It occurs to me that the Devil May Cry series uses the trauma of the loss of Dante's and Vergil's parents to motivate the actions of both brothers- Dante takes a more heroic route, but doesn't embrace the demonic power he inherited from his father until he undergoes character development in Devil May Cry 3, the prequel to DMC1. Vergil takes a villainous route, thoroughly rejecting his humanity and embracing his demonic power, not realizing until Devil May Cry 5, the last entry in the canon timeline, what a mistake his rejection of his own humanity was. The actions that both brothers take, heroic and villainous alike, are motivated by their trauma, even after their characters undergo character development that steers them on a better path.

[@nekusakura6748]

Scarlet Witch's arc doesn't work for me especially after I learned that Sam Riami openly stated that he was only vaguely aware of Wandavision's exsistence. It also reminds me a lot of Joe Quesada's ordering Grant Morrison to kill off Jean Grey in the 'Planet X' storyline to get rid of an Empowered Female hero on the Protagonist's side. Seriously, they could have left Wanda as an Anti Hero.

[@Estarfigam]

Most real villains, just think they are doing what is right and ignoring the consequences.

[@Concreteowl]

What I love about The Ninth Configuration is it delivers trauma to a nuanced but ultimately horrific character and it turns him into a saviour.

[@WhitneyAllisonGG]

The best character for Trauma villain is Magneto done right you can sympathy his motivation to humans and mutant relationships. It is explain why his motivation and enriching his character. I have a lot gripes about Fox's X Men universe but you see Magneto going from hero to Villain and Anti Hero over the franchise. You got a point where Magneto was taking down the X Men only to realize that his villainy nearly killed his own son Quicksilver. Magneto grew up in the Concentration camps that killed his people and family X Men Apocalypse he lost his daughter in Germany and nearly killed his own son. That's probably the only story arc I liked in the movies.

[@pious83]

*Magneto.* As soon as this topic popped up, he is the very first example that comes to mind. Oddly enough, not mentioned here? His trauma, arguably a retcon in itself. 60's Magneto was very much a one dimensional villain. His childhood in Auschwitz defined him and his worldview. Yet, it was probably the death of his first daughter (trauma number 2) that set him on the path to villainy. Even then, he has done heinous and very evil acts because of this. Finding vindication and Justification by it. But, he's not wrong. This is the way that Marvel has been able to ease him away from Supervillain to hero to _Morally Grey._ He is basically a discussion point in and of himself. I do think his trauma informs his character. His "never again" Batman pledge, is to not lose his people to evil while he has the power to protect them. Also, you mentioned what I would consider _pure_ villains. Those that are allowed to exist, without sympathy or dilution. I would point to Judge Death, from 2000AD/Judge Dredd. Perhaps one of the greatest Supervillains ever made. His motivation and mindset is very simple: The dead don't commit crimes. So Life is the crime. They gave him a back story several years after his debut. Young Death - Boyhood of a Superfiend. Without spoilers, I strongly encourage you to read it.

[@robinschicha4712]

Magneto in the Movies is more of a classic Villain in the sense how his actions are painted for the audience: he is seducing Pyro to the Dark Side, betraying the X-Men and Mystique’s Trust by opportunity again and again, makes big speeches as a dictator („We are the Cure!“) and his body count is very high, including 👮🏿‍♀️. He is not holding back his Evil 😈 nature. As a regular Human on the Street, you would fear 😰 him for good reasons..

[@the_aberration7398]

Overall, an excellent video! I would like to add that I don’t think the live action film Maleficent is intended to be a subversion of how the character Maleficent was portrayed in Sleeping Beauty, it’s intended to be a subversion of how gender and gender roles were portrayed in Sleeping Beauty. There are only six female characters of note in Sleeping Beauty: Aurora, the Queen, three Good Fairies, and Maleficent. The Queen only has one line in which she fearfully asks if Maleficent, whom she refers to as “Your Excellency” is offended that she wasn’t invited to the christening. Aurora is subservient and was willing to marry someone other than the one she loved because that’s what her father wanted, and this is portrayed as good. The Prince stands up for himself and his right to marry who he wants, which is portrayed as good. The three Good Fairies are clever, intelligent magical women, two of whom are old, and they are portrayed in a positive and heroic light, which is a rare and pleasant surprise. But they still serve the king and uphold the status quo, and are weak compared to Maleficent. Maleficent is incredibly powerful and is the only woman with agency and desires that don’t involve serving men in the entire movie. She is the villain. Maleficent, the film, subverts this in many ways. I remember reading an essay about it, but I don’t remember what it’s called.

[@melodyqueen6432]

Just starting the video, just gotta say that your intros are usually pretty good, but this one is fantastic

[@saena971]

The way most tragic villain backstories are written, it's not the trauma that makes the villain, it's their ego. Every time I see a villain's actions "explained" by the loss of loved ones, I think "what makes them so special?" People have been losing loved ones for millenia, and yet somehow, the villain's suffering and pain is SO important that they have to murder other people's loved ones? It sets off my bullshit detector every time. The number of people who have survived trauma and become more compassionate, more kind, and less willing to cause suffering to others is far, far greater than the number who come out more cruel and destructive.

[@jp1701A]

I actually think that 90s comics were awesome especially for Superman and Batman. One of my favorite letterhacks, Joe Frank of Scottsdale Arizona, wrote in after as issue of (I think) Action Comics. In that issue where Morgan Edge, the tv mogul and secret head of Intergang, was in a coma. While in the coma he had flashbacks to his childhood where we discovered his father was abusive and may have killed his mother, sending him on path to darkness. Frank wrote in and asked why is it that we are unable to have villains who are just evil? Why do they all have to have deep physiological motivation? He suggested it be better if they could give a story where Edge murdered his own mother when she didn't raise his allowance. Myself I call it the "Darth Vader" problem. It was so cool to learn that he was Anakin Skywalker that now all of our villains' have to be good people who went bad because something. When Disney does an origin of Palpatine I really don't want it to have his drive be the death of any loved one or abuse. Lets just have him be pure evil.

[@SpencerDragonMonster]

Since you brought up horror villains, I'm reminded of how you can trace all of this at least as far back as classic Gothic horror literature (I'm thinking specifically of two really bad-looking dudes).

[@VortexTraveller]

5:30-5:32 My comment got in a Council of Geeks video (got to admit I wish it was under more favourable circumstances. 😅) You made a very good point, I didn't consider that Wanda freely chose to wield the Darkhold even after seeing how dangerous it was when Agatha used it. Its not even like a "One Ring" situation where the Darkhold actively entices someone to use it, it was a choice she made of her own free will. As much as I do still enjoy other aspects of MOM, In retrospect the film really does do both Wanda & her trauma dirty, after the end of "WandaVision" where she seems to of learnt from her mistakes & starts coming to terms with her trauma, to being engulfed by her trauma to the extent she doubles down on her mistakes to the point of becoming a complete monster.

[@borjankosarac3645]

I’d argue there’s more details in some cases you mentioned (Harvey Dent in TDK is implied to have something broken within him, from Aaron Eckhart’s performance; the novelisation of the film states his abusive cop father used the same two-sided coin to psychologically torture him while also beating him)… but that’s semantics and doesn’t make your arguments incorrect.

[@knitcrochettiger361]

oh dear lord, this trauma leads to villiany trope is old....in real life, many "EVIL DOERS"/"Criminals" did not have a trauma in their past that lead them to villiany......and sometimes people who had a traumatic childhood leads them to do great things to help others......good example, some social workes, police, firefighters, nursers or doctors had a trauma that lead them to HELP others

[@elbruces]

Asa supervillain watching this, I get that I'm not your intentional audience. Still I find this an interesting discussion. Even if only to better understand my competition. Batman doesn't do shit for orphans. There are orphaned and refugee children all over the world. They don't dress up as furries and beat up poor people in alleys. That's called a "kink."

[@XxMusicxKelseyxX]

I mean, he does so *something* for orphans in The Lego Batman Movie, but it's mostly to serve his own ego lol

[@Syurtpiutha]

Paranorman is SOOOO good. I love that movie to bits. My one note is that I'm not sure the bully-character fully works.

[@rebeccatomlin3121]

Sort of a niche example but it took a 35 year old franchise by storm: Emet-Selch in Final Fantasy XIV. Up until meeting him, the game’s villains were always hooded body-snatchers puppeteering people throughout history to destroy themselves seemingly just for the sake of summoning their god. But through Emet-Selch, we learn that it’s just a means to an end - he is among the last of the race we used to be, an ancient people who cultivated a utopia only to lose it to an unforeseeable catastrophe that ended their era, and they have to grind everything and everyone down so they can have their god rebuild it and us back to the way it was before. And though he is prone to hamming it up as a villain, it’s clear that having to do this over the past thirteen-thousand years is killing him inside. He misses his home, his family, the two dearest people in his life from back then, and every day has it shoved in his face that all this needs to go for them to come back, but he keeps looking for any excuse to find an out, because he knows deep down that the present peoples of the world have value, even if he can’t quite appreciate it himself. Through the player proving themselves by putting an end to him and overcoming his plans, he gracefully admits defeat, free of his burdens, and only asks that his people be remembered. There is more to it, but this is already long and the finale to the overall story and his involvement is relatively recent, but to have ousted even the PROTAGONISTS of some of the most-loved games in the series in official popularity really shows how strong of a character he is, and his trauma is inherent to both his villainy and, arguably, his heroism.

[@prophetisaiah08]

Having watched Wanda's journey in its entirety to this point, I don't see "trauma directly leads to villainy" in her story; but given how common that trope is, I can see why other people see it there. In my viewing, Wanda's story is more, "maladaptive responses to trauma can lead to villainy." Wanda has had a long history of not being able to effectively process the trauma she experiences, and each failed coping mechanism only brings more trauma. But instead of changing, she keeps doubling down on her harmful behaviours untill she's lost all care for the harm she's causing.

[@Torthrodhel]

Your video helped me figure some stuff out in the story I've been writing the longest, which also is the messiest aimless jam of a story with the greatest potential for problems, but one my mind will not let go of (perhaps that being why I'm so unkeen to have it finished quickly).

[@EmeralBookwise]

You are right when you say that anyone who lives long enough will have trauma, and yeah, most of us don't become villains because of it. Then again, most of us would have nothing to gain from turning all that pain outwards. To take Wanda as an example she actually walked away from her trauma, even if only ever so briefly. At the end of her mini-series she came to terms with the fact that Vision was dead and that her children never existed. What drives her to villainy isn't the pain of loss, it's when through reading the Darkhold and learning about the multiverse she sees a path to reclaiming what she lost. Likewise with Hal Jordan, it's not the trauma of losing his hometown and everyone he ever loved there that drives him to madness, it's being denied the option of using his powers to bring them all back. To turn this personal, a few years ago I lost my girlfriend to cancer. It took me time to process and move on from that, and I'd like to think I'm in a better place now, but... well, if I believed there was any actual way to get her back, I'm not sure if there's any limit to what I'd do.

[@madDjakni]

I don't really pay attention to these things when watching movies (I'm a simple mind simple pleasure kind of person) How ever the use of Scarlet Witch in MoM really bothered me because It felt both rushed and incomplete. Here is this heroine who up until now has been depicted as someone who regrets all the collateral damage she causes, and now all of a sudden she doesn't care how much damage she does or how many she kills in order to get her way (and yet she still wont kill the biggest threat to her plan aka Strange) and then to redeem her they have her destroy the Darkhold in every universe and the temple it's based on (and "dying" for it but let's be realistic here no body no death). 2 things I think would have fixed this in my eyes at least. 1.) If we had a bonus WandaVision episode (or a short story), between the finale of WV and release of MoM, where she's delving into the Darkhold and slowly getting more and more corrupted, show her searching for her boys and for a solution until the Darkhold shows her something (if they want to keep the audience in the dark they can but I'd prefer not to because I think the movie would have been better if Wanda got a more fleshed out story instead of being used as a surprise villain (granted revealed early)) and all we'd see is a page with a Star on it. 2.) Have her not slaughter the sorcerers at Kamar Taj. Simple, she didn't need to slaughter them to get through, now some might have died in self defense but that is more understandable than her just outright slaughtering them all just for being there.

[@heatherhaven1268]

Great video!

[@dante6985]

With our major heroes - Batman, Robin, Superman, Spider-man, Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Rey, among others - one trauma comes to mind. For all intents and purposes, they're orphaned.

[@robo3007]

You praised the first season finale of Titans for demonstrating that it only takes a small amount of trauma to make someone do something irredeemable. Has your opinion since changed or is there something that sets it apart from the examples discussed here?

[@rashkavar]

The biggest problem in fiction, and especially in movies, is that characters don't have a critical component to managing trauma that real people do: a community to help them through the trauma. Who does Harvey Dent relate to in the Dark Knight? He has Rachel, his fiancee. There's Gordon, a work buddy he has a guarded trust for. Batman, who he's only just met in a scene in the movie. He has dinner with Bruce Wayne, but again, that's framed as new acquaintance - Batman is evaluating him for the first time, using the cover of Mr. Wayne the potential campaign financier (because elected prosecutors...that's such a weird concept to me as a Canadian). A couple of minor court functionaries and police characters - more work acquaintances with even less of a relationship than Gordon. ...Sum that up, and he has one person with a significant emotional connection. And when he needs the support of others who are significant parts of his life, her death is the reason for that need. So he has no grounding whatsoever. And before any professional counseling can start, Joker shows up at his hospital bed and starts twisting the knife on that trauma. Hell, in that movie, of all the characters with close emotional ties to others, Batman, a character who this trilogy of movies frames as being isolated, probably has the most characters he's deeply invested in. Gordon is a trusted ally and friend. Alfred is the man who raised him after the death of his parents. Fox, his weaponsmith and a man who has, again and again, proven himself a reliable source of wisdom and moral grounding. And Rachel, a childhood friend. And hell, we see instances where at least 3 of them provide that sort of grounding over the course of the series. Rachel's response to Bruce revealing he was going to kill the man to killed his parents back in the first movie. Fox when Batman reveals his cell phone sonar surveillance system (though in this case, Batman's a bit ahead of him and has already set up the system to be destroyed the moment it's no longer "necessary"...for the movie's definition of necessary.) And Alfred, in basically every scene, is the moral compass for both sides of the character. This is not to say that every traumatized person who doesn't have that support network to help them will make the worst possible choices. There's way more nuance there. But it's an important aspect to coping with trauma that doesn't exist for most characters in most media. There's a handful of books I can think of where some characters come close to having a group of friends and acquaintances that approaches a normal social life for a real person, and thus can actually reasonably portray this kind of communal support...but many writers assume that because we don't see these characters on screen, they don't exist in the fiction of the universe at all and thus their characters don't have that community.

[@cakt1991]

This trope and its sibling in true crime explaining/justifying the actions of vile people misses the mark, because they try to argue solely for the nurture side of the nature vs nurture debate. But with time, it’s been proven again and again that both nature *and* nurture play a role. And I love stories that acknowledge that, especially if the hero and villain have both been through trauma (especially of a similar nature) and yet you see the difference because of their choices.

[@natsmith303]

I'd also offer up Halloween 2018 for Laurie's trauma leading to her being the prepared badass the climax needed her to be, and it's everyone around her who either wants to exploit her experience (the true crime bloggers) or to write her off as a crazy alcoholic (her daughter Karen) who are framed as in the wrong. Now that franchise kind of inherently comes with its own baggage around mental illness, but as far as this subject I would say they nailed it!

[@slashandbones13]

While I enjoyed the movie overall, I found the messaging very muddy for that reason.

[@jacksithlord1301]

As someone who wants to write characters this is very insightful thank you

[@nicolecurrie2896]

I mean, I get why everyone goes for trauma as backstory: real life bad people usually come from trauma (see serial killers). I also get just how badly this trope can be used.

[@roberts.2300]

As a real life motivator: No, trauma is not always the factor that makes people do evil things. It's a bit multilayer then that honestly. I used to work with a therapist for close to fifteen years, so I see when the motivations of people lean into certain salutations to explain there bad habits. However in the end it's still a choice whether those actions to continue is up to the induvial. Usually tragedy can be part of it. Nevertheless there is also generational legacy (nature vs. nurture, and even genetics) of bad behavior (I personally broke that abusive cycle myself). The influences that people have throughout their life is a major factor. Especially if they are around those people most of their life. Some of us are forced to break away from those things, while other have no choice but to embrace it (for the time being). It almost can fall into the terms of exploitation if you will. In all honesty the motivations for some of these villains have been shallow when they were first conceptualized. However as time has gone on some of it has been explained. Not in the best way possible, but I think with time other stories will come where their identities become fully realized. True, not everyone needs a backstory for them being "evil." However people are complicated and I am sure that is what makes trauma an easy tool to explain some of the motivations, but not all.

[@elliart7432]

I've just noticed a whoooole lot of horror movies seem to love giving their male slashers abusive childhoods, so I was really hoping someone would make a video addressing that or similar

[@charlieinthefog]

There's this book I just read call "The Way of Kings". Kaladin (one of the main characters) loses his brother in a battle. From that point on, he will be shaped and will try to protect everyone, but mainly young men who are weak and cannot fight back. Throughout the story he will always think about his loss as a reason to protect people and I find it genius!

[@rachelbecknell4259]

I haven't just had trauma, I've had PTSD. It broke time for me. It made me afraid. It heightened my alertness, especially where I didn't have a wall or other protective surface behind me. It gave me a few panic attacks. It made me wonder if I was "going crazy." You know what it didn't do? Make me want to cause it for anyone else. I don't doubt that some peoples' trauma, even PTSD inducing trauma, can motivate them to violence, especially if that heightened alertness causes them to see a threat where there is none. But too much of our society is biased against those of us with neurodifference for me to endorse using normal human trauma, or even severe, possible life-ending trauma, as a motivation to do harm. I find it ableist and tremendously upsetting.

[@Ky_AnCom]

Some more extremely accurate examples of trauma (specifically the trauma of extreme violence against women) creating villains would be Kayako Saeki and Sadako Yamamura from The Grudge and The Ring franchises. One could easily point out (not even argue) that the entire concept of the Onryo of Japanese myth is that if a villain created from trauma.

[@safirak7988]

"They did that with Hannibal" sounds like its a new thing (arguably it is, if you see 2006 as new). Hannibal Lecter, the cannibal killer, originating from his major trauma (google, if you're interested) was written by Thomas Harris, the author of the character. It was never a factor to excuse him in stories other than the "origin" story though, so I would it's more of bonus element than a core motivation.

[@PogieJoe]

So cool to see Kipo mentioned here. Love that show.

[@Dai_Tallsian]

Curious what your thoughts are on how trauma is used in Arcane, both for our heroes and villains. It feels like the actions of every major named character in that show from the obvious (Jynx, Vi, Ekko) to the less obvious (Heimerdinger, Mel) are informed by some kind of trauma, whether it be for good or bad.

[@ganondorf797]

One Piece actually directly adresses and subverts this trope several times. I'm thinking of, for instance, Hodi Jones and Doflamingo.

[@sworddragonsliege]

How is someone being born a villain any better? I think why people like using trauma as a reason is because they believe that humans are inherently good, and that only something awful would drive them to do horrific things. Perhaps some people handle trauma less well than others. But I think saying someone is going to end up bad whatever one does isn't a good message either. Saying that it is their nature to be evil instead of saying the evil they experienced wasn't something they could handle.

[@CouncilofGeeks]

See you’re making an assumption that an explanation must be provided, so that if it’s not trauma then it must be “born bad.” But… why does it have to be explained at all? Like, give a motive, sure. But what’s wrong with just greed? Lust for power? Desire for chaos? How many stories actually benefit from addressing either the question of past trauma or innate tendencies?

[@sworddragonsliege]

@@CouncilofGeeks I made said assumption partially because you said Syndrome would have turned out bad anyway. So were you not already making the assumption or did I misunderstand that? I do agree that an explanation is not necessary to make an effective villain. Perhaps it is only a personal preference, but I enjoy a complex reason for why a villain is doing what they do, I always like to know why everyone does everything. And I do agree that just the fact that a villain has experienced trauma should not automatically make them the embodiment of evil. On a side note, I think pure evil itself is not a very interesting villain, though a pure evil villain can still be an enjoyable one. Thirdly, where would "just greed" or "lust for power" come from? Those aren't really reasons in my mind, they are actions, the ways villainy is performed. As far as I know people who are completely happy and comfortable with life do not commit "evil". And what is trauma but a condensed form of unhappiness and discomfort?

[@lonewolf6884]

I think a good exmaple of hero with trauma that helped motivate them is Edward Elirc. Edward Elric that had some trauma dupped him as kid and it cost literally an arm and leg and almost his brother and we watch through Fullmetal Alchmeist: Brotherhood of him correct that miskate and healing from said tramua and owning up to his miskate

[@nicka3697]

I think at times your arguments were confused. While I agree that there is an issue here Peter Quill remains a hero, he gets angry and makes a big mistake but that's a human failing not villainous. Gomora overcomes her trauma and ultimately so does Nebula, at least in some timeliness. Even Wanda overcomes her treatment from Hydra to become a hero, and you could argue she deals with her Endgame trauma during Wanda Vision to emerge OK but falls to the corruption of the Darkhold perhaps to be redeemed once more now that its influence is gone. I have a lot more problems with Twoface and the Joker where internal evil is so linked to external appearance. I think that is a much bigger issue partly because of a lack of representation of ugly heroes. And no the hulk isn't ugly and nor is the Thing although they might think they are they don't have weeping boils or lopsided faces.

[@martinmorles1]

Traumatic backgrounds for villains is great when you want your audience to be synthetic yet many recent lack the sufficient execution. As the actions of the villain are so extreme to the point that you can't be side with them. Villains like Mr freeze and thanos I can get behind , but Magneto and Scarlett Witch , their reasoning is so one note.

[@marocat4749]

Magneto is great when he is not over the top but reacts just over the top to a human villainry. In the movies he is great. But thst goesin how thought out he is written i guess. But itsxa goodmotivation,because technically he is right. But trauma though opression ans mental health like like wanda are complex. Seriously thanos? His original his he was in love with sense would have been better(and less makinf a malthusien philosophy case)

[@phylasvell]

Ngl it’s a red flag you agree with thanos when he’s a mad Titan and the whole point is he is just a madman

[@martinmorles1]

@@phylasvell good point, difference been thanos background was consistent with his actions , were still insane , but more believable.

[@WhitneyAllisonGG]

@@marocat4749 Yep. Magneto was one of the few things that Fox got right in it's movie adaptation. The difference between Wanda and Magneto is that in both movies franchises was the execution. Both actually had similar stories that they are products of War. Magneto singular goal is preventing the Holocaust for Mutant kind by any means necessary. Everything that Magneto did made sense in the Fox movie X Men. The problem with Wanda is that she wasn't stable to begin with. Most of the introduction was seen WandaVison and not in Doctor Strange 2. You didn't really get a cohesive telling Wanda Maximoff story arc.

[@Tentaclest02]

Sometimes it seems to me that "realistic" traumatized villains are not so realistic. That in reality people do absolutely terrible things simply because it is beneficial to them, or because they think they are right.

[@jensconcepts671]

I am trying to find a way to word this that makes my thoughts clear because my thoughts on this subject are a little muddled. I like the trauma as an influence for the bad guy under the sense that it can be used as a mirror towards the lack of compassion and empathy society has towards individuals can close individuals off. Individuals can break wrong based off of abuse and trauma a supervillian can emphasize this occurrence. I would like it to pull more of a statement of the role societies coldness towards people has in the compounding of trauma. Steven Kings Carrie could be asked is she a villain or an abuse victim that finally snapped at her abusers. Is society the actual villain in her story.

[@Elwaves2925]

You make some good and very valid points, although I don't think I fully agree with your conclusion. Purely because it is a part of defining some heroes as well, even if it is to a lesser degree. However, I do agree that it is overused for villain, a change would be great. One point I really do disagree on is Carrie White. She was not the villain, she was the victim. Her mother and a number of the townsfolk were the villains.

[@gregcourtney751]

Yeah one good way of having villains with trauma is to have a hero with similar trauma. That way its more about how each copes and contrasting that than the trauma turning someone bad. It also can give sympathy as well.

[@lollydolly4590]

I think the villains need to be a bit less abruptly villainous to show more clearly how trauma has lead them there, and yes the trauma of heroes highlighted more as well. I do think villains with traumatic backstories are more sympathetic because as you say we all have trauma. With Wanda I think the issue is the disconnect between Wandavision and MoM because Wandavision went overly one way with Monica being totally overly forgiving of Wanda and brushing off what she did rather than showing how she did something bad and that can lead to more things. And then MoM just leapt into everything

[@yate0128]

Honestly if she at least mentioned bringing her brother (and her parents) back, then I'd understand her motivation a little more than 2 imagined children Would still suc but eh

[@citrinedragonfly]

I'm not up to date with the series but I like the way Miraculous: The Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir deals with trauma as impetus for both heroes and villains, and how the same event leads two characters down two completely different paths. Gabriel's reaction makes Adrien's life worse, but Adrien in the end is still a good person, which is why he is given one of the two most powerful Miraculous - and one of the ones that Gabriel wants so desperately that he uses his powers as Hawkmoth to try and take it in every episode, not knowing who's behind Cat Noir's mask. And, we also get recurring villains in Marinette's class, like Lyla, who are bullies and unkind people despite others trying to help them, who choose to work with Hawkmoth because it furthers their own ends. I think it's an interesting take, and I don't know if you've seen the cartoon or not, but for me, it uses the trope of 'trauma making the villain' in a way that's more complicated than the norm.

[@M-CH_]

Ok, I need to "um, actually": Candyman is not supposed to be perceived as a character; he's a myth, an urban legend (complete with a hook for a hand). In the original novella ths is stated even more clearly. The Candyman only exists as an object of belief - the gruesome story of his origin (completly absent in the novella) might as well have never actually happen as long as people believe it. And in the movie, Candyman sets out to turn the protagonist into another figure of myth by turning her into a monster in public perception. What makes her a monster is not the trauma she undergoes, but her death, which makes her villified public persona the final "version" of her, unassailable by the only witness which could call out its falsehood.