When Worlds Collide | Why I don't need a lock-in amp | COLLIDE 4 Ep. 03

[@CinematicLaboratory]

I made a decision today. I ordered a second one. This morning I had a 'patch programming' session with Bruxa and Melotus Versio and it was just amazing. So episode 04 coming as soon as possible because this episode was kind of a cliff hanger for me. Also, it was NEVER my intention to trash the C4 in any way, I just couldn't get it to sound like me. I know it can sound like Hainbach and Blush Response could DEFINITELY make it sound like him. I also didn't get my 'wow' moment yet, but this happened just a few minutes ago. I've been 'accused' many times for having ABSOLUTELY no idea of how a Lock-in amp works. I really did my homework, but this video wasn't intended to demo one. I didn't do the official workflow in this video because it would have sounded like 4'33" and my mordax data would only show a DC voltage as the final result. Thats why I made the bold statement that I don't need a lock-in amp. I may have used the word 'we' which was never intended as 'in general'. It's a personal thing. What I DO need, is to master the C4 and it really deserves a 2024 design award. It may end up in my own top 10 after all. Anyway, the struggle is real. We all spend a lot of money on a module only to find out it it doesn't convince, you already own the necessary separates, you can't make it work or you can't figure it out without study. I may have 16K subscribers, but many times I am 'the fool that doesn't know'. This is not a tech channel, I am not a technocrat and all I care about is cool music. See you soon!

[@joranalogue]

Sorry to hear you're not gelling that well with Collide 4 at the moment! I'd like to add a few points that may aid in understanding where the concept of the module originated. Yes, lock-in amplifiers are designed as measurement devices. And while C4 could be used in this application, that's not the intention. Lock-ins use mostly 'standard' synth building blocks to do their measurements. The actual architecture, however, is a far cry from the standard subtractive patch. This provides great opportunities for electronic musicians looking for new sounds and forms of synthesis. The original scientific application is little more than the backstory of our protagonist-cool, but ultimately irrelevant. Unfortunately, and it pains me to say this as I respect your work, but you did not actually use the module as a lock-in amplifier in your video. Simple signal cancellation in the preamp is not lock-in detection. There is an extensive chapter in the user manual on how the lock-in process works, and how to use C4 in this application. Suffice it to say that Maths can not do this. It does take quite an extensive (and expensive) system to patch up everything that's inside the module. So there is a value proposition here. But by using your existing modules and making the patch, you've probably learned more about analogue synthesis than the vast majority of electronic musicians. It's a worthwhile effort, even if you already own C4! I also feel it's important to mention that all of Collide 4's circuitry is cutting-edge analogue. There is nothing 'vintage' or 'lo-fi' here, except for the devices that actually inspired the module itself. It was never the intention to recreate or clone old tech-quite the contrary, we want to push things ahead and imagine an analogue future. To me, and I feel that @Hainbach would agree, the most valuable thing which Collide 4 can offer people, is to rediscover the wonder of exploring electronic sound in its purest form. I've seen this happen in front of my own eyes, and it's a beautiful thing. Yes, this takes actual work and research and effort-a very contrarian concept in today's world of digital instant gratification. We're fighting an uphill battle here, and it's not going to be for everyone. But for some, it might just be what they've been looking for. We wish you all the best on your continued Collide 4 journeys! 🎛

[@ChainsawCoffee]

I am still waiting for mine from my retailer. I started using test equipment in, ah, 1978? 1979? for their intended purpose. Shortwave radio was my synthesizer. Your manual was very clear to me, but of course I have decades of reading said manuals and working with circuits. Your manual probably is a bit opaque to an average musician. There is a lot in the Collide4, and I know I will have lots of fun with it.

[@desnou]

It is a problem not specific to Collide 4, but for me personally, Collide 4 is the perfect example of what exactly is the biggest problem with modular nowadays. In the "good old times" half of modular enthusiast would actually own enough simple blocks in their physically large racks to patch Collide 4 from scratch. Nowadays the paradigm shifted to rotating highly specialised modules inside a downsized case and having to buy new specialised modules and rebuild said case on a regular basis when you want a different result. For me that is literally antithesis of modular synthesis. As I wrote at the beginning - this is not specific to Collide 4. Befaco Oneiroi or most of the DivKid's modules are examples of the same problem - modular has become gear-centric instead of knowledge-centric and less about patching and more about fishing for sweet spots within single modules before sending the signal down a simplified path. I personally think it's for the worse.

[@joranalogue]

@@desnou The Joranalogue approach has always been about patch programming. If anything, Collide 4 is an exponent of that, rather than the antithesis.

[@CinematicLaboratory]

Thank you for reviewing my video and thanks for the aid. Foremost, I hope I made clear that a) it deserves a 2024 design award, and b) it's a 21st century module in every way. I agree Maths can't do this, I was only referring to cancelling the mono information from a stereo source. As for the lock-in amp scenario, I think my 'method' of aligning the source and the reference also worked, in contrast to total silence when measuring the MAG DC output. It would just be a line on the scope. If everything worked as intended, you would not hear anything. Sure, I studied the manual which also states you should not use C4 as originally intended in its lock-in role. My 'method' exposed the sinewave buried in noise and it's possible to expose any cyclic waveform by just listening and watching the C4's 'beating' lightshow as you approach the source frequency with the reference. You can visually see (and hear) them align.

[@CinematicLaboratory]

@@desnou I understand and respect your opinion. The only thing I'd like to add is, we're all free to choose our own paths. While Oneroi represents a problem for some, it's an amazing solution for others. I guess it's a side effect of modular going mainstream, and I am sure it will have AI generated melodies or complex waveforms matching original sounds and voices.

[@michaelkonomos]

It’s too expensive for me to probably ever own, too specialized to justify. But I am delighted it exists. I am a huge fan of Hainbach and the idea that they are reconnecting people with the roots of our instruments in this way, but in a modern format, is really compelling. If you watch his videos on it, as I am sure you have, the results sound remarkable. Had I the money I wouldn’t hesitate. And I’m sure this is fairly priced. Happy for anyone who is able to afford one and explore its vast reaches.

[@ChrisMills-AmbientSpace]

I adore the sonic snapshots and acoustic vignettes that you are sharing with us. Thank you.

[@walrtbstudios5430]

The geek in me wants a C4- but the rational me says ‘no, it’s a lot of money and you’ll never use it properly’. But here’s the thing- you briefly showed an Echophon, and by coincidence it was just this weekend that I finally replaced my Echophon that I foolishly sold a year or so back. And I have had a brilliant time over the last few days using it ‘wrong’, simply patching a Wasp filter into its feedback loop and fiddling with the dozen or so knobs available to me. Sonic mayhem ensues. So you are spot on- it doesn’t matter if you use gear the way you “should”, just as long as you can tweeze from it noises to intrigue and delight you. But the geek in me STILL wants a C4…

[@CinematicLaboratory]

If your collection is limited, it's a truly amazing module. I almost ordered a second one, but I'll sit on that idea for a little while and try to borrow one from Joranalogue for a week or two.

[@zackcolbourne6921]

We need a single lock-in amplifier in Eurorack more than we need 900 different filters that are all the same.

[@CinematicLaboratory]

The only thing that's really relevant is what YOU need. So by all means get one.

[@zackcolbourne6921]

@@CinematicLaboratory Oh, I definitely can't afford or justify this thing in my life either. I just like that it's out there.

Thanks for the video, At least it looks like you opened a talk ( and add some more curiosity about that crazy module). I don't own it but I kind of understand as you made the analogy with leibniz system ( which I own and love even if it takes me a shitload of energy to start a patch with, so I rarely play with it) . I have the feeling that making music with such weird devices is in a way not logic at all... but that also the reason why it's fun and can provide magical moments and very unusual music. I Also really appreciate that you are always trying to find workaround with other stuff, it's way more inspiring to try to understand and recreates than just let your GAS think for you.

[@KenSwanson-p4i]

"and then suddenly, it does everything SO well .." .. no kidding, it can happen like that, sort of like the intro of "Wish You Were Here" AM static, unappealing radio stations, and then turning the knob more, and things develop .. there are many terms & processes are mentioned that I'm still trying to get my head around. Perhaps someday, I will be able to beat them into the brain. .. ? ..

[@SnakeOilJohnson]

Very good presentation - I've felt this love/hate relationship with a few modules over the years. The biggest barrier for me is the price......here in Canada, we have to pay $900 for this boutique piece of eurorack technology, which is out of reach of most working musicians. Take a look at your existing tools - you might already have what it takes for building these beautiful sounds.

[@janhenckell4178]

Such a nice and honest video(if true). I have a Ciat-Lonbarde Plumbutter 2 and I like listening to it´s ultrasound filter, discharging capacitors in various rhythmic patterns. I always wanted to do something with these rhythms and tried filters, noise gates, envelope followers but the moment the Collide 4 found its way to the Plumbutter´s output I knew that was it. Now these weird ultrasound rhythms can be shaped and given shapes. I guess that is was Hainbach´s beginnings was all about: to find sounds that came from noise, currents and magnets,

[@intafon]

Very fun conflicted video! I ordered one and then canceled it to order it from somewhere that had it in stock, but then decided not to order it again, partially with the same sentiments you express here. I really dig Hainbach’s sound, and really like Joranalogue’s products, but ultimately decided it isn’t for me (at least right now 😂).

[@CinematicLaboratory]

I ordered my second one :).

[@pbrninja19]

I like this video, but just for the sake of discussion, I feel like a good rebuttal is Joey's (Blush Response) video. About two thirds of the way through he discovers territory new even to him.

[@CinematicLaboratory]

I must have missed it. I've seen it hanging around in his rig, and really wanted to see him use it in a way he would use it. Definitely more in his alley I guess.

[@CinematicLaboratory]

Just watched his video which only confirms that it's not for me and perfect for him :)

[@jonaseggen2230]

I have not watched the video yet and only understand grains of what you wrote. I have liked the video though, because first thing first... I don't know what a lock-in amp is, so what I got from your text made me think about a few broken modules I have. Among them is a Jack Plug Monsoon that can only skweel and I haven't succeeded in using it in any way satisfactory yet. The other is a Rings module that I could not understand why I was struggling so much with it, until I read about this make, Momo modular that apparently has a terrible reputation, so as I now know this, I will see what I can do with a cheat or fake Rings into a broken Monsoon. At least it won't be what many consider a cliché, Wish me luck : D

[@CinematicLaboratory]

I really love your comment and it's extremely likely you'll find an amazing patch with any broken combo.

[@kirkyoung4147]

Tbh I think a collide 8 video is the only answer

[@nickmarkham3743]

Man, I love these patches from about 8:40 in. No idea what's happening but that's what modular does that gets me excited... Any notes on what might have been going on there?

[@CinematicLaboratory]

The idea is basically the path of the COLLIDE 4. Something comes in, gets filtered and pinged so you get these little glassy ticks, then it goes to the frequency shifter, which changes pitch perception (notes). I am using the RingMod with Tides running in LFO mode, so it's panning the shifter's output. COLLIDE 4's VCO can also be set to LFO mode so it's possible to make a similar patch with just one module and a source.

[@nickmarkham3743]

@@CinematicLaboratory Thanks! That just leaves the input to the patch. It doesn't just sound like a pinged filter. More like a pinged and maybe modulated filter? Like something Stazma would do with the VCFQ? Goes from being a glassy ping to a filtered synth tone to a liquidy modulated droplet. . . Maybe I'm wrong and that would produce a vastly different result. ^^ . . . Hm. . . Rings instead of a bandpass filter. That's something I'm very excited to try when I get myself a "B-stock" 1630 clone frequency shifter and a befaco A*B+C. :3 That's either going to be magic or way too much of a good thing. (If nothing else, rings in parallel with this VCFQ > Kozalin > ring mod > delay thing would be neat. ^^ ... Me system can't get built fast enough! :U )

[@CinematicLaboratory]

@@nickmarkham3743 You're right. Very observative. The source that goes into the VCFQ is a MakeNoise STO using the varishape output with a bit of modulation on it. So there's a lot of expression on the input.

[@PCoyte]

I was getting some great sounds out of it at first then seemed to get in a rut making some unsatisfactory noises and had to take it out of my case. You've given me hope! I used it live the first week and also saw Hainbach perform with it so I think hearing it through a PA makes it shine as despite the distortion it is quite subtle

[@CinematicLaboratory]

All I can say is give it a few weeks or even months to discover it.

[@PCoyte]

@@CinematicLaboratorythat’s what I’ve been doing with all my modules for years! Thanks for all your great videos

[@jandobbelsteen8953]

I do own a Collide 4, and I do own an actual lock-in amplifier. And yes, you did completely misunderstood how a lock-in amplifier is used in measurements. If you would like to understand, then you should check-out one of the videos that 'The Signal Path' has created about this measurement instrument, I'm not going to try to explain it here. Also, a lock-in amplifier is patch-programmable, and the Collide 4 is getting all internals out in the open, so it is a really versatile and patch-programmable module. And yes, you can put the resonant band-pass filter after the frequency shifter (patch programming). And modular levels are no problem for this resonant band-pass filter, also not if you want clean sound. And this is an expensive module, but I guess that any combination of high quality analog electronics, combining an extremely high gain amplifier, with a pingable resonant band-pass filter, with quadrature sine oscillators (with TZFM), with a frequency shifter, with a clean low-pass filter, would be expensive. And it's completely patch programmable (or did I already mention that?). I guess it's a bit like the Serge modules. This module requires a lot of experimentation, and maybe knowing a bit of how the thing actually works, might help understanding it faster. I wish you a lot of interesting experiments, and maybe the module grows on you with time :)

[@CinematicLaboratory]

Thanks for sharing. Maybe you should watch the video again with less prejudice and just let me struggle.

[@jandobbelsteen8953]

@ sorry, trying not to be :)

[@robriki2]

5:24 Doing mid-side processing with Maths? I know that wasnt the purpose of that video, but it made me go back at Maths manual. Again. Always good from Time to Time.

[@CinematicLaboratory]

It's probably not in the manual but you can use channel 2 and 3 with a stereo channel and then invert (cancel) the center information. I am not sure how to extract the only the center information. It's something worth exploring and making a video about.

[@robriki2]

@ it’s not in the manual! I’ll investigate, though. Also being able to do live « center » only would means WEIRD (and cool) vocal remixes in our racks!

[@jherekco]

Do we need a lock-in amplifier is Eurorack? No. Do we need a collide 4? Hell yes. Most modules are a combination of simple analog building blocks which can be recreated by other modules (or circuits). It’s the design choices, limitations, usability and the sound which makes each unique. I’m sure you could recreate this module with a case of doepfer, however not many people have the time or inclination to try that. I respect your successful attempts to do so! I played with module at machina bristronica, I loved the sound of it, it took me to a place I hadn’t been in Eurorack, with the massive gain I found something to comparable to the industrialectric rm1n pedal. At some point I need to buy a collide 4, but I have other rabbit holes to explore for now!

[@CinematicLaboratory]

In fact, I made a doepfer layout in modulargrid with separate components, but with a dual quadrature VCO, the pre-amp with envelope follower and the amazing stereo multimode filter. I was planning to use it in the video, but decided to use something I could build. It' also shows even with doepfer it would add up to an expensive case. modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/2242451

[@MeAlexSenna]

Not a module for me, way too much money for what it does in my rig.