When YouTubers ask for money

[@LesterDiaz]

The mistake is people don’t come to KZbin to watch TV shows or Netflix style content, the audience wants to feel a connection with the creators, the more they move away chasing tv style content the more the audience feels disconnected to the creators.

[@omnimater]

There clearly are ways to make more TV style productions without sacrificing that. Take Donut for example. It's openly a media company and uses only a slightly more "KZbin creator" style than what similar shows on Speed Network showed in the late 00s and 10s

[@JDeeVis]

Yep. Can even look so for back as the YOMYOMF channel started by nigahiga

[@casey.taylor]

Hard disagree. I come to youtube because of the creators personality and their genre of content not the style. Mr Beast is straight up making tv show style content along with a number of other creators and they're doing just fine. Not only that but youtube is completely free. So of course people would come here to watch tv shows when they don't have to pay for a subscription service. That's why you see so many shows posting full episodes here like Kitchen Nightmares, Mythbusters to name a couple. There's an audience that wants connection for sure but that's just one type of viewer.

[@VMYeahVN]

I partly disagree. I think what you are saying makes sense if you are talking about the actual business model, and not the style of content. There's absolutely room and enjoyment for the style of the content to be TV/movie/Netflix style and the audience of the person making it still be able to connect to the creator. The issue is when the creator tries the Traditional Media created money hungry methods of profit extraction on the audience without providing enough in return to make the price worth it. That's where Watcher went wrong. It's the fact that the monetization strategy they tried to do was incredibly slimy, out of the blue, and not good value. I even saw lots of comments of people saying "if this what you're going to do you better be putting out Disney level shows with weekly episodes and not the 1 or 2 videos a month like they currently do".

[@Skapo]

Which is why many of the most successful KZbin channels in existence are similar to TV in production style right? Mr Beast, Mark Rober, Try Guys, Dude Perfect. I mean the list goes on.

[@brynna8619]

Something I'm not hearing added to this conversation: Smosh has a lot of employees but they post 7 days a week and make some videos with a higher production value but also have videos where they are reading reddit stories and playing board games. I don't think watcher makes enough content let alone balances production value well to handle such a big staff.

[@brutibear1423]

do we know how many employees smosh has? because this is a great point

[@brutibear1423]

found it they have around 30! and so many channels, don't see why watcher can't branch out more

[@Duckduckobtusegoose]

Or even add dropout/college humour into the equation. They have their own app for their content that is behind a paywall. They have a decent amount of employees and a lot of variation in content. They asked for money and were offering nothing new in return. Is the issue sustainability or is the issue them having to take a pay cut and therefore accepting a lifestyle change. On patreon alone, at the low end with their 12,000 patrons they would make around $60,000/mo just on patreon and they ARE getting brand deal still, they do still make money from ad revenue even if it’s not a huge amount. They aren’t broke and if they are it’s due to poor money management.

[@heybuddy3616]

@@Duckduckobtusegoose collegehumor was an established brand identity, it had an enormous backlog, the emerging behemoth that is dimension 20, and its demographic was largely millennials with slightly more cash to spend. watcher is a new company with less content and less variety overall, a small core cast, and had cultivated an audience of dedicated but less financially secure zoomers. streaming services aren’t a bandaid to midsize businesses like this either, they’re a huge risk and even if watcher tv does turn a profit, it probably won’t be for several years. this was a PR fuckup first and foremost, but also it’s not a good solution for watcher specifically

[@blitzofchaosgaming6737]

Watcher makes an average of 2 hours and 12 minutes of content a month. 3 creators and 25 people hired means those 28 people average making less than 6 minutes of content each per month. That is stupid.

[@FrontwaysLarry]

Watcher's huge mistake wasn't paywalling content, honestly. The issue just came from "no extra value, 100% extra cost". They aren't Netflix, they aren't Disney, and all they were doing was taking away what used to be free for their viewers. If they'd instead said, "Hey, we're making a new show exclusively over on our website, AND all our current stuff is over there ad free. If you support us over there for this exclusive series, it'll help us fund future series exclusive to the site as well." - It would have gone over so much better.

[@karmaloe2688]

valid point

[@cellophanefire22]

Spot on! If you want peoples money you have to give them something new for it and give good reasons/framing as to why they should pay

[@shivenverma]

this! exclusives are 100% ok and a ton of channels do it with patreon, but taking what was free and making it paid is just terrible

[@Vi3ES]

this is well said. very well said. Could have made additional offers to the community to become a part of the paywall. Additional value adds

[@Tax_Collector01]

That is EXACTLY what Corridor Digital did and they didn’t get any heat from their fans, this is a successful business model that has been proven to be effective.

[@AubryRugBurn]

I wish people with businesses would understand the simple truth that: *Your business problems are not for your customers to solve* The lack of business planning in pretty much all companies today really shows. But no one does a better job at illustrating this than KZbinrs.

[@hberror404]

amen!!!

[@TheVirtualObserver]

Tell that to Humane (the AI Pin company) and Rabbit (the R1 company)!

[@PassiveAgressive319]

💯👏👏👏👏👏

[@bananamilk1974]

Oooooo shut down!👍👍

[@kazerzinorange]

THAT. SAY IT LOUDER.

[@GrandLineReview]

The tragedy is that I genuinely believe they want to make "television" style content, but we don't live in that world anymore. They can make their stuff as high quality as they want but pursuing that path will always feel like taking a step backwards. They, and all of us here, built an audience of people who have by and large rejected "television" style content. It doesn't meet their needs anymore. Given how often they say it in that single video, I really feel like they would benefit from removing the word "television" from their lexicon and replace it with "Watcher". They need to figure out how to make the best Watcher content and that doesn't always necessarily mean investing more time and money.

[@adi-panda]

Do you think One Piece or other anime would work better on KZbin?

[@theprogressivemichigander6588]

The other part is that saying they want to exclusively make television style content that you have to pay for also said they don't value their KZbin audience at all. When they had a Patreon, no one complained because it's understood that the people paying into the Patreon are donating partially for any perks, but mainly to support the free content that regular KZbin viewers watch. When people donate to a creator, they aren't doing so just to help the creator. They are trying to help the whole rest of the audience get the content.

[@MapleDragonz]

Surprised to see one of my favourite OP content creators here! But I agree, making television style content on KZbin is not a sustainable model. The production of traditional film and TV content genuinely has very little place on KZbin, outside of maybe aggregator channels that purchase the rights of shorts or whatnot and post them on one channel. Watcher would have really benefitted from diversifying their content effort, and they could still produce the content that they would want to make, "higher quality" but at the end of the day it's still not the most sustainable model. KZbin as a platform, as an audience, prefers personable content.

[@emb5091]

I bet they were hoping that a network or streaming service would pay for there shows like how Amazon Video and Hulu picked up there old series "BuzzFeed Unsolved: Supernatural" and "BuzzFeed Unsolved: True Crime", but it never happened or they weren't offered enough. This would explain having such a large staff and focusing on television style content.

[@TheEnabledSecondary]

You can't act like cable, hire all your friends, get a big studio in LA, lights, cameras, contracted work, etc. and not expect to fire people. Entertainment changes fast, and studios hire and fire fast, you can't expect to give people lifelong careers

[@nhtathinfbntb2746]

Their vids arnt even that appealing tho for the amount they spend and people they have. They average a million views. 25 employees is crazy.

[@Escall]

I’ve seen a lot of videos about Watcher and the KZbin landscape and people are overcomplicating what’s going on. The fact is, the Watcher gang is getting old and the majority of their audience is also getting old. As we get older we spend less time watching KZbin videos and focus on family, friends and work. I’m sure Watcher has a young audience but they’re mostly watching creators their own age just like we did. Advertiser’s are spending money on short form content bc that’s what younger people are watching and the majority of KZbin viewers are most likely under 30.

[@neociber24]

I agree with this, some creators want to act like a family and not like the business they are. A lot of factors can affect the revenue streams and when you have 30 people to pay that's a lot of pressure, a lot of creators are scare of firing people because they don't want to be like the corporations they complain about.

[@luckysam78]

one thing i wish was mentioned is that watcher’s audience is mostly young adults who arent really in a financial position to pay for more ad services, and that’s also why a lot of fans felt betrayed. knowing the audience is so important, especially when it comes to presenting information

[@BeanMacdui]

Also, a lot of fans are international and six American dollars can be the cost of two weeks groceries… there was a thread I found on this with comments from people around the world explaining the impact on them.

[@CircusoftheMoon]

On top of that even for us older fans who are in established careers and can afford subscription services they had to justify why *their* streaming service would be worth it. Unfortunately for them they didn’t do that. (At least in my opinion.)

[@spectralnighttravel]

@CircusoftheMoon I'm in that boat. I thought to myself, I already pay 5.99 a month for Peacock, but there I get millions of times more content than Watcher posts. They're just batting out of their league asking the same price for a small fraction of the content you'd get elsewhere.

[@frimanolle]

The issue is that NO-ONE asked for tv-quality videos that requires a streaming service budget to produce. Most of Watcher fans are happy with low budget produced videos that feature the personalities that we love. If the choice is between keeping ur 25 employees or loose the brand that funds those 25 people, the choice from a business standpoint should be easier to make… If low product quality is the answer, then that’s what’s gonna deliver.

[@ParisuSama]

When I run out of money I'm told I should have anticipated, budgeted, and saved for this. I think most people don't want to give companies any kind of exception. KZbin is still young and volatile, scaling up to 25 employees is just insane to me. This really sounds like a case of simply overhiring and being overly ambitious. At least they dialled it back, but the fact that they thought their first plan was a good one is incredibly tone deaf.

[@mr.person1219]

Just because the main guys have a following, starting a new channel with that many people, is insane. You can't provide a sufficient revenue generation from that.

[@FancyStorm018]

Yesssssssssssss

[@RebeccaBredin]

When people find out their budget is not enough to get by, people are told they have two choices: cut costs or earn more. Other channels have been able to scale to this size, so it’s not like Watcher is doing something new by having a large team. They just made a really big mistake on reading their audience. Scaling a business is not ridiculous, but it has risks.

[@moejoesayson1933]

THIS. Also seems like they are trying to cheat their way into TV. If you wanna be TV producers so bad then quit YT and go to the cuttthroat world of TV. I can't remember if it was a video or a comment but someone also said something really important: The moment you become a streamer people will now judge you against other streamers. You can't have it it both ways. You have to close down your Patreon. Netflix doesn't have a Patreon. And if you're gonna charge $6 people are gonna judge your catalog against other companies

[@ParisuSama]

@@RebeccaBredin That's definitely true, it's not impossible and others have done it too. For me though, when I see creators like this scale too big and become unsustainable, it just feels icky to see their solution become, "YOU need to get us out of this. We're taking away the thing we used to give you for free and now you need to pay." College Humour/Dropout, Rooster Teeth, and Corridor have done something similar but it was slow over the course of years and they still put out content on KZbin.To do this so cold turkey feels like simple mismanagement if they're this strapped for cash. I heard what Colin and Samir were saying like how they're trying to make the content *they* want to make and how they're all still learning this as they go, but I think they made a ridiculous misstep and I'm not surprised there's so much backlash because frankly, this was so stupid and the fact that they didn't see that ahead of time is kind of a head scratcher. But hey, like I said, at least they're backing up and re-evaluating, which is definitely the smart thing to do.

[@MonsterMina]

I think this conversation was missing the perspective of "of course you don't want to fire your friend-employees but if you want to be a business, you have to act like a business" I think a lot of the audience is upset at how it feels like their solution to a problem of their own making (over-hiring for their content/company ability) is asking the audience to bail them out. Of course the advertising landscape can be changing, of course there is instability in income with most online content. But you just hired on more friends right before you said you can't afford KZbin?

[@RandomPerson-cf3gt]

Or Ryan and shane can just take paycuts to avoid firing anyone. Their fellow buzz feed escapees Zach, Keith and Eugene took paycuts.

[@illumistration]

The problem I had with the recent situation is that there really wasn't any value proposition. It felt like they were asking you to support their fundraiser while giving you less than before, and not with an understanding tone.

[@daverules]

making it work is not having 25 employees for a youtube channel

[@samixamehta]

Yes! This... ☝️

[@nathan890-n6l]

idk why creators feel the need to expand so quickly. maybe they want to feel like a legit operation and overcome imposter syndrome. but it’s not always worth it

[@thatgirl9532]

Also a majority of those employees are people who worked at buzzfeed

[@thatgirl9532]

@@nathan890-n6l Steven’s new food show just seems bland, the name is just not appealing. I don’t get why they won’t just run with worth it, if the try guys can get the rights from buzzfeed to make without a recipe every year.. then why not worth it with watcher… Also it doesn’t have to be crazy Michelin star meals in France lol

[@Muhluri]

Didn't they also hire family members?

[@anniemae4182]

One thing that you didn’t touch on that was a huge source of anger for the audience, was the fact that shortly before Watcher put out their “goodbye KZbin” video was that they announced they were bringing on Andrew and Adam to bring Worth It to Watcher…. Which is a very expensive show. They then went and put out a video complaining about money and needing more of it. I really think they need someone with actual business experience making calls like this… and telling them when something is a bad idea

[@xuapril32]

Exactly! They were saying they couldn't afford to keep running on just KZbin and advertising so they need more money, and immediately turn around and eat $1000 steaks or whatever. You can't ask your viewers for money to make new content when the content is "hey guys watch us travel the world and do expensive things".

[@KaleidoAbridged]

Steve, Ryan and Shane want to make tv quality productions, but they can't afford it, and their fans don't want it.

[@TheVirtualObserver]

Harsh yet succinct. 🫡

[@hattrickk15]

Ok but you can't in the same breath say you're doing this to keep the lights on AND say that you're doing this to expand and start highly expensive series.

[@--ashleyashleyashley--]

I think that when creators pull the curtain back and talk openly about the financial fragility of their business it can prompt the viewer to think about their own financial fragility. People typically don't enjoy being reminded of a poor financial reality and, when that self-acknowledgement is being mirrored back to the viewer by a creator who is ostensibly better off than them, it's easy for a bad taste to be left in the viewer's mouth.

[@veryclaro]

Such a great point. And when ‘institutions’ (meaning groups) do it, people become critical because they’re supposed to be consistently well-oiled machines with different parts, that need to clearly achieve an output (which is also what they claimed on the Goodbye YT video). Made people extra critical even about the founders’ financials (Steven’s Tesla, Shane’s wedding costs, etc) when prior to this, no one really cared. People will start speaking about cost efficiency on the institution’s side to make sure they’re being smart about their money even before they take someone else’s, especially not ours.

[@Koraeffect]

Hard to feel bad for content creators that play a violin about their hardship in this economy. Let’s see the financial docs or tax returns. 🫠

[@Duckduckobtusegoose]

This is amazing insight. It leaves a poor taste to hear well-off people ask people who are much less well-off for money with nothing of value in return.

[@mavicityrelayson2924]

Spot on. I live in a "developing" country. 6$ buys me 2-3 meals. Most creators that I follow are exponentially better off than I am. I pay for KZbin Premium only because they adjust for idk, GDP or some metric (3$ for me) and because I want to support my quasi-relationships with the creators I've followed for literally a decade now. It's annoying because I love Watcher, loved them since Buzzfeed. I've unsubbed for now because of how upset I am. Lol it sounds funny and irrelevant but I can't deny the feeling of being ditched.

[@BeanMacdui]

@@mavicityrelayson2924I am from the US and I read a comment section on another video about the watcher debacle. The comments were full of people like you who are from countries around the world and they were explaining the exchange rate and that six dollars is the cost of two weeks groceries and lots of stories along that line. I keep trying to bring it up in these threads because people aren’t even considering the large fan base that are foreigners! Makes me mad that no one is talking about this!

[@HoodedChance]

I just keep thinking about the Vlogbrothers in this; how Hank just went out there and while being a goofy brother of a professional writer helped build internet communities and invented Vidcon and saw the potential of online video in ways others just didn't...it's important to remember the ones who paved the way to allow others to have a chance at greatness while they settled nicely into the background and just keep chugging along, not reaching for the stars - just growing and producing great GREAT content with Crash Course and everything else at Complexly. Hank doesn't get enough credit.

[@icambridge]

Asking people to pay for something that used to be free will result in 80-90% of them refusing and being mad. It makes sense when the 10-20% makes you more than what you had before.

[@jamierussellville101]

I think the biggest thing is the tone deafness of not acknowledging the economy we are in. It's called being self-employed and having a small business. There are highs and lows. They just hired too much staff for the low.

[@Sanjna0720]

What do you think about the Mythical model then? They have content behind a paywall in their tiered subscription model. They make SO much content and varied in production quality. I used to be a 3rd degree member and then decided I couldn’t afford the monthly payment, but I never felt like I was missing out on content or merch opportunities because there is so much outside of the pay wall.

[@jbearclowater]

Generally speaking, when it comes to this sort of thing, I don't think many people on KZbin do it better than Mythical. Mythical has very smartly monetized their fanbase without abusing their fanbase or the good will of the fans. Their merch items don't always work (That cereal they released last year is an interesting error in judgement, in my opinion), but they've found great ways to incentivize fans to their paywalled platform without alienating fans who cannot. Watcher tried to follow the Dropout model, but they lacked the back catalogue that Dropout had to pull from, and Dropout only went all in on the paywall when they had to, because of bankruptcy, and otherwise built their platform up to what it currently is over time. Dropout is very successful now, but operated at a loss for a while. Watcher was trying to speedrun to that to keep the lights on, as they explain in their apology video, but took some serious missteps in setting that all up. I think they should have followed Mythical's model instead, where they continue 'business as usual' more or less on KZbin, but put their bigger swings that might not work as well on KZbin there, and also offer fans more value by joining the paywall site.

[@Judymontel]

Good question

[@dmuth4484]

I dont watch mythical but it sounds like they have reached such a massive level of scale where they are able to create a plethora of content outside of the paywall, a scale Watcher does not have yet. Note that this plethora of "free" content only exists because of the paywalled content that funds it. This model works provided you reach this scale. Getting to that scale is the hard part. I imagine a valley of death that you have to overcome, whether its with viewer dollars, investor dollars, advertiser dollars etc. But reaching scale costs money.

[@mr.person1219]

​@@dmuth4484Mythical comes from years and years of building their audience. Diversifying their revenue streams honestly just makes sense in the long run. From multiple channels, patreon, merch, etc. Good business model overall.

[@aprilgranzow8716]

Watcher wanted to be this without the organic growth first

[@wend4004]

I know that Mythical is a hard comparison to make because Rhett & Link have been around since the inception of KZbin (or actually before that) BUT - clearly the creator economy can support large media companies without putting all of their content behind a paywall. I think the issue is, as you guys said - is companies that grew during covid and expected it to stay that way. And those companies need to not blame covid for their companies dying, they need to blame themselves for not understanding the business they were building before sinking millions of dollars into it. Just because you can grow doesn't mean you should, and just because you're making money today doesn't mean you will tomorrow.

[@MrCheesyPerson]

The one month content window is a HUGE deal. You’re splitting your community into two where both are not talking about the content at the same time.

[@ThePandaSupreme]

This isn’t the biggest deal… a lot of creators do this with websites or patreon right now

[@craigrider2116]

21:37 I think a common problem with stuff like this is the concept of being scalable. My mentor stressed to me that being scalable is being able to scale up AND down. Otherwise when you open that studio you’re running a brick and mortar business. And you need to be prepared for your margins to shift to a “normal” brick and mortar level.

[@itsmetonylei2540]

Welcome to publishing! This is the same as the traditional publishing industry. There's a lot to learn from magazines and newpapers... they've been through this already. Some have failed, some figured it out. The ones that figured it out have a unique value proposition to customers and have shaped their businesses around it.

[@SpencerCornelia]

i really appreciate that you guys fill in context for stories that have "drama", which is why I much prefer getting creator related news from this channel as opposed to others.

[@Silverpicker]

I'm a niche creator in the coin collecting space and I can tell you that my industry-specific sponsorships are healthier than they have ever been, but my more generalist sponsors have more or less entirely dried up entirely. Very interesting episode!

[@tAhmeed874]

It kinda makes sense since niche creators generally cater to less broad audiences. But these guys were basically the ideal sponsorships guys. They're like late night talk shows in advertisability so they deffo aren't struggling to get sponsors

[@thatgirl9532]

Watcher made a massive mistake making this move. In a few months time, they will be back on KZbin. The smartest thing to do for their company/channel would have been to fire at least half of their employees to cut down on costs. Having and paying 25 employees is one of their absolutely huge mistakes, they went from escaping buzzfeed to creating their own buzzfeed, asking their audience to pay for content is another huge mistake.

[@WolfCharmer]

Exactly because they can make the same quality content with have the staff

[@committedtodd]

I'm willing to die on the hill that the biggest turn-off to KZbin over the past 5 years has been the commodification of it.

[@EricLondaits]

One reason why I think it was badly received is an "unsaid" thing that some of their audience might have felt subliminally: if you go behind a paywall, you *know* some people will not follow you... you count on it and accept it. That's OK for people happy to pay, and that's OK for people who'll just shrug... but for the people right on both sides of the fence (the ones who will pay reluctantly and those who can't get themselves to do it) it feels like a very violent and aggressive stance. The other thing is that, yes... in one way, most people (in the US) can pay USD 6... in another way, it's understandable they can't, especially when Netflix, KZbin, Spotify, etc. are asking for more and more each day. It's not about paying USD 6. It's about another, e.g., 5% into your monthly entertainment expenditure, which might increase next month or the month after, when another service raises their price or another creator you follow goes behind the paywall.

[@KillerTacos54]

I think the way they handled it was very mature, upfront and genuine which I respect them for. That being said, idk why they thought this was a good idea in the first place

[@thatgirl9532]

I think we all appreciated their apology but it honestly seems they rushed into things and didn’t think or even ask their audience on their thoughts before jumping the gun. Also having to pay 25 employees is absolutely so absurd, they literally have become buzzfeed 2.0 also a majority of their employees seem to be ex buzzfeed employees… I wonder how many people have actually paid for their service

[@daveforz]

yes theory kinda did the same thing years ago with project iceman, and they always push their merch. it’s about how you package it I guess.

[@SalemTechsperts]

As a short form creator wanting to venture more into long-form, this was incredibly insightful and educational. Specifically the trend of advertisers wanting to dilute their funds among shorts across platforms vs just long on KZbin. The grind to pump out a quality Short form every other day to satisfy the algorithm is wearing me out. Long-form is much more enjoyable for me to make and work with, but it seems I'll have to continue the trend of Shorts-focused content. Thank you guys for doing this.

[@deathkorpsofkriegguardsmen8488]

Well if it isn’t the greatest technician that’s ever lived.

[@BaldskiTheIII]

I do appreciate that Steven, Shane, and Ryan are making high quality videos just for the fans to watch it. But, the thing is... Nobody really asked for it. Making a video about Leaving KZbin was such a huge blunder, and the amount of impressions to it is insane. Imagine having thousands of Patreon users supporting you, just to slap them with a 6 dollar paywall sign is upsetting to anyone else.

[@pithygrapefruit]

And these guys downplayed how much of an ask that is. Sure it’s not 13k, but almost 6k paying is no slouch. If they already generate at least 350k, it is conscionable to then take another 350k out of your audience’s pockets? All while not offering anything for the original 350k and offering the same thing they had for free for another 350k. So they essentially pay 700k for a KZbin video that has always been free. Can’t believe they just tiptoed around it.

[@yoinkiepoo]

y'all need to interview moist critikal

[@BaldskiTheIII]

Get this to the top, I highly agree with this.

[@yoinkiepoo]

@@BaldskiTheIII yessirrr

[@tjmorake2743]

Agreed.

[@octoberbaseballyt]

They probably not gonna do it since he is not kid friendly

[@johannesklein7064]

He never really goes anywhere I think and he lives in Florida

[@Dimsrose]

I don't think a lot of people are realizing though that You are your own advertiser. By having any content, you are advertising yourself. This is how you become your own brand. There's obviously a lot of value in that because that is why big companies PAY for you to talk about them. That is why Netflix has a KZbin with new content that helps further advertise itself.

[@BeanMacdui]

This! And you worded it way better than I could have!

[@katelynb2913]

Aw man, you know colin and samir had to jump on this. Shoutout to them for trying to bring everyone together on this

[@tortlebard]

the point of the wall break really hits home. for some reason youtubers feel less corporate then other businesses and when watcher introduced the paywall it immediately felt like one of my favorite youtube channels became no better than a streaming service upping its price every 6 months to appease their bottom line

[@matie52]

Great perspective on the topic from Colin and Samir. I think the biggest difference when people compare Watcher to Rhett&Link, Smosh or Try Guys that also employs lots of people, is their content and how much it costs them to make their popular shows. Watcher’s founders most popular shows Worth It and Unsolved involved lots of travelling and spending money. As they said Ghost Files also need to hire freelancers whenever they go travel to a haunted location to film Ghost Files which if you add airfare, accommodation, food, equipment, etc. that probably costs a lot for just one episode that might make 1M to 2M views posted once a week. Whereas R&L’s GMM rakes in about 1M views each for 5 videos in a week and the production cost is significantly lower as they just film themselves in a studio and they film multiple episodes a day. Even if Keith’s Try Guys buys all of the menu from one place that probably wouldn’t cost as much as a Ghost Files episode. Smosh’s cast appear in three or more different channels which collectively posts at least 6-10 videos across all channels and they also film in a studio without much traveling. I guess the unfortunate thing here is that Watcher’s beloved content Worth It and Unsolved just cost too much to produce for a KZbin channel without Buzzfeed money which again had a channel with lots of videos a week that performed really well. I understand where they came from in what they were thinking but I think they took the worst way possible. I think there might have been alternatives they could’ve taken. It just felt way too sudden to a lot of people. I really like Ghost Files and would support them but maybe like wait until all episodes are out and then subscribe for a month and then binge watch. I wish them the best and hope this is the end for them.

[@kdude965]

Corridor perfected the paywall model. Post really good content for free on youtube, then post viewer greenlit content behind a paywall. They still have great content for free while capturing the people who want to pay more for them

[@oriolesaltec]

Mythical has done a good job with this too. Their first tier content is lacking sometimes, though

[@liriodendronlasianthus]

I think Dropout was the most successful

[@-tristan]

I made it to the deep end of this one boys. As a viewer I have a lot of thoughts on the topic. Thinking about KZbin history... creators were heavily disincentivized by viewership to promote sponsored product/ads. As time went on, viewers began to celebrate creators for "getting that bag". I believe that the audience will continue to support creators who remain true to themselves. In KZbin transparency is key, disingenuity can be felt and is often the death of channels.

[@PhillipsLacy]

I always enjoy these little chats about the creator economy. I come here to learn often

[@daverizz]

Yeah, just starting to watch this, but I can already say, I have too many subscription services already, and my budget for paying for KZbin content (beyond KZbin Premium) is 1 Patreon at a time. Currently Johnny Harris. Previously Van Neistat. And my sub is a sign of support. 100%

[@daverizz]

Yeah, 100% agree on the #DeepEnd IG musical stills. ...it's a *little* less annoying when there are multiple photos to swipe thru, but if it's a single photo with music, it's straight up confusing UI.

[@ciaolife]

I think a big part I didn't see talked about is communjty engagement - they hugely benefit from features like the chat and they haven't replicated that at all on their website. It's a black box of content

[@kevinbparry]

Loved this conversation. Appreciate the transparency from your side!

[@EcomCarl]

Watcher's experience highlights a critical junction in the creator economy where sustainability meets audience expectations. Engaging directly with the community about monetization strategies can build understanding and support, ensuring content creators can thrive while keeping fans happy. 👍

[@RunDownRiver]

$0 overhead makes the girls go crazy

[@Jensun]

I watch every single video you guys release, you two are always very informative and laid back and I truly appreciate what you do for smaller creators. The dream is to make it big on KZbin and start something of my own, but damn is it difficult at the start. I'm still holding on to my dream of succeeding and one day making it on your show!

[@lexikiq]

thanks for keeping me company while i wash dishes, i really appreciate your balanced take on this as i feel a lot of the reactions online have been wild

[@alijahan]

A couple of things weren't mentioned about charlie's video here, firstly he mentioned that he himself has employees and not just editors and production crews, he employes gamers for his esport team which demand a way higher salary than editors for example and he can pay them easily just with his twitch streams or adsense i believe. And he isn't just a dude sitting in front of a camera in his room like you mentioned. As previously mentioned he has esport teams which are very expensive, he has a warehouse which would also cost a lot of money and they do product tier lists which also cost money. He does music with the gentleman, he has a podcast and recently started a new channel too. And he does money donating streams pretty often now. So he does have a lot of cost and it isn't just a dude in his room like it may have been in the past. And he is like the least ad friendly creator and if he doesn't have a problem paying his employees, i'll take his word for watcher just being greedy for making this move, unless they suck at money management and just burn cash to warm up the studio.

[@brian_akhtar]

i think Bedros Keuilian is right. he said the problem is that you train your audience that you aren’t selling them anything. so when you do, they’ll be furious. so you have to train them from the beginning that you are/do intend on selling something, so when that day comes, they shouldn’t be surprised. i’ve been making sure we do that in the early stages of our business and i am very confident in this strategy

[@BeanMacdui]

Train your audience? No thanks….🙂‍↔️

[@brian_akhtar]

@@BeanMacdui ok bud that’s life but ok. hope you never condition anyone to treat you the way you want to be treated based on your mentality….

[@BeanMacdui]

@@brian_akhtar I set healthy boundaries for myself. Your use of the word train sounds more like manipulation. Honestly though, you’re right, for the business world that’s how it works. Like it or not, it is the reality.

[@pb_and_nutella]

TLDR: *If someone buys a bigger house than they can afford, it’s their fault when it blows up in their face. If you overgrow your company and move too fast, it is your fault when it blows up in your face. Asking your audience to make up for your unwillingness to live within your extremely reasonable to live within means is not the move.* 15:30 is the thing that they seem to not understand about their content and why people watch it. People are willing to pay, people pay with views, patreon, merch, live show tickets, among other things for different creators, suggesting otherwise is disingenuous. I think their saying essentially “we can’t make ends meet” and it’s clear that they’re making enough to do so, but you’re just overspending and shooting way above your pay grade (studio size/ location, over-hiring, hiring friends/ family, overshooting production value without a proportionate increase in viewership), yeah it’s not nice to be asked for money in that scenario. If someone buys a bigger house than they can afford, it’s their fault when it blows up in their face. If you overgrow your company and move too fast, it is your fault when it blows up in your face. Asking your audience to make up for your unwillingness to live within your extremely reasonable to live within means is not the move. The Deep End (Taylor’s Version)

[@baldlyrudy]

Just want to get this out there as someone that went through your first cohort. It was awesome and it definitely propelled my channel in the right direction. Thanks guys!

[@rolo8950]

The entire reason i watch youtube is because it is free content, movies, shorts and videos on everything under the sun. Why would i pick ONE youtube channel subscription over netflix or hulu or amazon prime where i can watch a ton of shows and movies? Im a fan of many youtube channels of literally every genre....so if you want to make me pay to watch you, ill literally just watch the other channels. As the viewers, most of us are too lazy and watch all kinds of content that we just wont watch you anymore if its no longer free when that need is being met by other creators.

[@seagol666]

i feel like you guys should explore the two ways of doing things. Someone like a Linus Tech Tips with 100+ employees running successfully and someone like MKBHD running with a much smaller crew being equally successfull

[@omnimater]

Yeah I'd like Linus on for the contrast to many of the other operations they discuss

[@pickerof]

hope they read this

[@oriolesaltec]

Is MKBHD still that small? I guess for the views that they get it’s pretty small.

[@omnimater]

@@oriolesaltec MKBHD waited a long time before he started hiring a team and even then it was slow and deliberate. Currently a team of 13 including Marques

[@seagol666]

@@oriolesaltec compared to LTT they are in size... It's also an interesting juxtaposition because both channels cover tech.

[@daniethegirl029]

I feel like you did a better job explaining the advertising issue than they did. I don’t make KZbin content so maybe I’m just ignorant but a staff of 25 to produce one episode a week seems high. I follow creators who put out one episode a week and they have a staff of 2. I do think they got lost in production ambition, that doesn’t resonate with their fans. Also, really feel (again I may be ignorant) like they need to hire some business people. (Accountant, financial planner, pr, etc.)

[@De-wow]

When I initially watched the Watcher video I thought “What is it that they are trying to get ahead of?” Sadly the future of KZbin appears to be advertisers. Ad breaks are becoming longer and more frequent. I truly believe Watcher’s intent is to be able to exist without being beholden to advertiser demands. This move was about being able to control their content. There is some sort of trend coming our way that we don’t see that they trying to get ahead of. Unfortunately they get the backlash as they are among the first to try to solve the problem. This is just my gut feeling. It also appears in trying the solve the advertiser issue they forgot about the people who made them successful. I was glad to see this video. It brought a different perspective to this debate.

[@makariespe]

How you _did_ you go about marketing your course to the specific audience? Great information! Thank you :)

[@RefeelYoga]

Perhaps I'm not part of the "normal audience", being a creator myself, however, regarding your guys' course, I think it's amazing. You two are certainly experts in your very specific field. You've both invested significant funds and years of your life to get to the point of understanding that you have, and to be able to share in/receive that knowledge SHOULD be an investment. It values you. It values the knowledge. And it gives value to the experience of being a student. I have seen first hand - especially when it comes to detailed courses - if someone doesn't pay enough, they wont feel like they've invested and they won't have the same value of and commitment to the course, as they receive when they actually need to consider the investment. Not charging, or setting too low of a price point on courses does a disservice to both you and your students.

[@kishansolanki2782]

MKBHD also has high production cost since a long time yet they never ran out of budget and always delivered a better video from the last

[@GuntherDaGreat]

I like how you guys have a well-rounded approach to monetizing your audience. What Ali said was so true; the paid content isn't for your entire audience, and as creators, we have to navigate that properly. Thanks for sharing guys!

[@savvybuilds]

As a small creator I can see why more people might need to "ask for money". The effort that goes into making quality content along with providing valuable information should be worth...something. The time commitment is huge! Adsense can be great but it can also be a total let down at times. I still haven't ventured into sponsored videos but that to requires planning, organizing, and negotiating. Running a channel is no joke these days. Great vid, thanks guys!

[@akashantony333]

I love how much value I’m getting from this comment section. A testament to the community the C&S team have made.

[@JairoSaysHi]

Such an important episode! Thank you so much for your take. Here's some money to prove we're okay with paying KZbinrs... as long as the value makes sense!!

[@bltotrs92]

i would rather give the amount i can freely without a paywall to get to the content

[@melanybahl]

Thank you for the objective review of the situation. Very instructive.

[@maiphammy]

Love when yall do videos just you twoooooo. This was a good one

[@matt.stevick]

I don’t know if anyone else that is business experienced thinks that this entire thing is originated and revolving around one fundamental flaw that they made with their operation: *Twenty Five* employees. It’s that simple. Too many employees, employees are the most expensive part of a business, and KZbin shows and channels by nature should be like 1-5 people generally, some exceptions for a few more.

[@chrismilton8792]

I'm glad you covered this... well done. It's not unique to Watcher, the monetization (or funding, or profitability) has been difficult or a mystery for a lot of channels.

[@Judymontel]

It really depends on how you ask and what the setup is. A channel I follow had a certain series for a while and then announced that series was going to become available for Patrons (on Patreon) only. I couldn't afford it at the time, but I was happy to join their Patreon when I could. It used to be free, it wasn't free anymore, so I enjoyed their other content that was still free. It was very respectful on all sides.

[@dougsmith4678]

Thanks!

[@addieadaaddition]

Would really love to hear conversations with folks from Dropout and/or Nebula to get into the nuances and nitty gritty of why and how they are able to have successful streaming platforms. It doesn't feel crazy to me that Watcher would go into a pay model. What does feel crazy is the structure and lack of detail of their announcement video. I think there is a world where they did this transition much more successfully if their communication had been better.

[@aprilgranzow8716]

Is nebula successful? (Sincere) I didn’t get that impression when I looked into whether it was worth the money.

[@diamondplayz2145]

I don’t get how they didn’t have the foresight to see that this was going to backfire big time.

[@justinccaudle]

Politely asking Colin and Samir to do a video on the slow mo guys. I apologize in advance if y’all already have. Thank you for all that you do.

[@mclovin6537]

Have moist critical on, would love to see you guys debate ❤

[@HowToADU]

Having the Veuve Cliquot box of Louis 200 behind you, talking about the guys who asked for $5.99/mo 😅

[@OperationAndrewDocumentaries]

It's their content. Their business. They have a right to charge what they want. Just like they have a right to stop making content altogether. 25 employees is a lot though for a YT channel. My guess is they overhired. While things were booming over covid. Now they have to make a difficult decision But they have a few options. But I haven't seen the original video so I don't know how badly it was executed

[@Julie-p6u6m]

I used to love both formats of Buzzfeed Unsolved and still watch old episodes!

[@thishappycrafter272]

This is the first time I’m hearing someone say they love “Worth It”

[@livingtheskylife]

This is such an important and relevant conversation! I am in the process of shifting my business model at the moment and I am thinking deeply about all of this. I am tired of the volatility of advertising and brand deals and am focusing far more on reaching the right audience and delivering deep value to them. Also, I could not agree more with that gripe 😂 I tried doing the music on photos when it first came out and it was a hard no for me. It's not the vibe.

[@somaticswithaudrey]

Feeling grateful for this episode. I’m just starting out on my KZbin journey and was starting to get cold feet when I see lot of bigger KZbinrs and people doing online courses starting to burn out. A lot of these people are people who built big teams and they eventually built something so big, that the organization that they had built was running them instead of the other way around. I’m now seeing most of these people reduce their teams and starting to run more lean operations. It was helpful to hear you both talk about this phenomenon and inspires me to keep things small and lean as I continue to grow my channel.

[@imanim8793]

I subscribed at the end when you asked because I realized I’ve watched tons of your videos all the way through, but always search your name to find the videos. I’m not sure why but I’m subscribed now.

[@benjaminhiggins3194]

I think particularly with your channel because you are always discussing the creator economy and all the mechanisms of it, it did not feel odd to me (as a non-creator) that you also had an $1800 course. Perhaps I would feel differently if I was a creator who couldn't pay that, but I didn't feel in any way put off by you mentioning that. Thanks for the interesting insight.

[@KateBrunotts]

You both always host such thoughtful discussions, thank you for creating!

[@pandemonium8276]

The biggest problem though was the overall approach. It was the combination of all things: the sudden paywall, the fact that they were crying money (specifically talking about Sara Rubin) like if one of the shows didn't involve eating gold coated ice cream and flying the most expensive option out there. Also although I understand that Steven and partner both probably made the effort to save the money for the wedding, the fact that they could save 50 k just for the venue is not something that screams "we need liveable salaries" like Sara said. You have more than liveable, lady. And if you have 25 people in your business and you can't pay them it's more like a you problem.

[@midwestboyzoutdoorz]

Saw that thumbnail change, definitely support the change. Went from ranking slot ten on my home page (desktop) to number one.

[@midwestboyzoutdoorz]

Can we get Sketch on the POD?

[@falcon_1239]

Thanks so much Colin and Samir I really appreciate your video. I am not a creator myself but have always been interested in the creator economy after discovering you and watching you for a year I can now confidently say that you guys are one of my favorite creators and I have a lot of respect for you, your informative and engaging content, and your thoughtful opinions.

[@Geico23]

Nice yap session

[@StorageYUPPP]

This is a really good video. The conversation around the realities of monetization on KZbin and across the digital landscape was very insightful

[@samueladams9186]

I understand people shifting their business models, at the end of the day creators need the revenue to pay for their overheads as you say but also that revenue is essential to making innovative content as they always need to stay on top of competition. Also I would love to see Ryan Trahan back on the show as he is truly dominating with literally 2 employees, his take could be extremely valuable not only for up and coming creators but also the huge creators that really could reduce the size of their workforce. P.s. great video 😄

[@Vi3ES]

love this. Would def love to hear what trahan is up too and how he is managing with just two employees. Also he is such a talent he is a bit of an outlier but ya would love to hear how he is running the ship.

[@0hubi]

I wouldnt be opposed if it werent for the fact that they took previously free content and locked it behind a paywall. They could've made "premium" content for a subscription, and still made the regular free content available on youtube.

[@themysticcuber992]

It was like MKBHD said once, you can make a paid service free, but it's VERY difficult to get the consumers to support a free service becoming paid (he said this for something about Twitter I think).

[@Smoked_Chief]

I think a KZbin group that has done a good model is the sidemen with having quality content on their main channel for free then having extended clips etc on their subscription based SidePlus content.

[@themysticcuber992]

Lmao I didn't actually watch the video when I made the comment, I didn't realise they actually talk abt this exact point in the video.

[@miloseveggies8064]

Thanks for a more adult, nuanced, and informative discussion on Watcher's goof. Most reactions immediately devolve into strident whining.

[@razzyp]

What got me was as a OG fan they started acting like other KZbinrs. Let’s be honest nobody asked for these high quality videos it’s about getting us to fund their lifestyles. They chose to move to Los Angeles for what I just don’t know. 90% of the videos I turn on YT now there is always someone asking for money in some fashion. Cash app, Go Fund Me, they only get on live for the super chats and then we don’t see them again for weeks it’s exhausting. On top of that we all have so many subscriptions as it is that just keeps rising and don’t get me started on that mess. If I feel a creator is working super hard I don’t mind shooting a tip their way now and then but lots like to guilt you into it. Many of us are struggling and haven’t even asked our family for a dollar. Then you have people like Watcher who got their start ON YT, was doing just fine, pretended they were for “the people” (eat the rich) and now want to hold us hostage with their paywalls. At this point I only watch videos that don’t need extra assistance and simple do it for the enjoyment.

[@OutThinkMedia]

Part of the problem is simply with their rollout. I didn't watch them much before this, but the channels I know who've gone to a membership or Patreon model - or both- is that they were transparent for weeks or months about how they need to change in order to continue bringing their audience high-quality content. HappyGamerGG and his business partner Mrs. K spent an hour on a livestream explaining BTS before they said they felt horribly they had to raise their programs by $5. The Financial Diet warmed their audience up for months before they moved some longer videos behind a paywall for a week + added membership benefits.

[@dude.dans_]

For nearly a year, I've been watching every video you guys post and somehow it wasn't until Colin brought it up at the end 32:17 that I realized I wasn't subbed 😅 Anyway, I'm a longtime Huge fan, but new sub! You guys are my go to account for any Creator Advice.

[@chrismartin17]

I think there is this sort of "creator class" mentality. We all got this idea that content creators (KZbinrs, esp.) should make millions, or close to it. Maybe we need to adjust our understanding of how wealthy professional content creators can expect to become. Now that there are so many, and the dilution of ad $$$ is real, maybe creators aren't making the celebrity-money we've long associated with them. Such that KZbinrs maybe need to get their drinks from Starbucks and not Erewhon (no offense).

[@evony5661]

They should have followed suit with what Dr. Richey did. "...we just need 1% of the viewers to join..."😅

[@SapphicStories17]

I’d love for you guys to have Sticks on, it feels like they are making these high quality productions in the goal of reaching that feature film level production. I’d love to see how they are making it work with just a few key creatives.

[@lamyyartifex]

Amazing deep dive. It is super fascinating how youtube and youtubers and youtube watchers have changed. Of course we are subscribed ❤

[@animebeast6933]

Lol so funny at 20:00 when Samir talks about breaking the wall to the audience and starts looking at the camera and asking us about it, literally breaking the wall to the audience in the process! (in a good way)

[@AuthenTech]

i run light and lean and i love it

[@JullianLue]

Okay ill say it SINCE nobody has the guts to...... So I'm not rich.... I'm far from that but I SO SUPPORT A WORLD WHERE EVERYTHING INCLUDING SOCIAL MEDIA BEING A PAID SERVICE! PEOPLE HAVE TO EAT! SOME PEOPLE JUST WANNA BE ENTERTAINED AND GIVEN VALUE FOR FREE ALL DAY EVERYDAY AT THE EXPENSE OF PEOPLE THAT PUT BLOOD, SWEAT, TEARS AND SACRIFICE INTO PRODUCING CONTENT! #TheseUngratefulCHEAPAudience So they dont want to pay, YET THEY SKIP EVERY AD THAT COMES ON, AND COMPLAIN OH GOOGLE IS STEALING OUR DATA, FACEBOOK ETC ETC... As a creator you're suppose to give FREE entertainment and value then put on a fake smile when in real life you're suffering, in debt, who knows maybe even short on food! CHEAPSTERS ARE SO WEIRD AND ITS ACTUALLY DISGUSTING!

My experience as a creator is that brand deals are the worst, I really don't mind that now they are harder to get and all that because I've been trying to move away from them. This video is very interesting because now I have an idea of where not to look for revenue.

[@amartgod]

i fuckin love yall thank you for highlighting the larger issue