Where are the Goblins? Things Tolkien Abandoned | The Lord of the Rings | Middle Earth

[@CyBromancer7562]

I kinda wish Goblins and orcs were separate races. Orcs would stay corrupted elves, but Goblins could be corruptions or mockeries of Dwarves, being smaller, greedy, cunning and subterranean creatures that can: crawl or climb across rocky terrain; are able to see in complete darkness; are known to dwell within mountain halls, underground tunnels or mines; have a love for hording wealth or weapons from other races; and are skilled at buildings evil machines or wicked engines.

[@zielisawzielony9366]

Good idea.

[@kennkoala]

In the movie Battle of Helm's Deep, the wall climbing Orcs (goblins) weren't there because the Lothlorien Elves had intercepted them and slaughtered them, but this meant only a few hundred Elves were available to assist the Rohirrim. Unfortunately this is not canon.

[@davidponseigo8811]

I never thought about it but you make a lot of sense in your comment.

[@lookmeat]

There are corrupted Dwarves, they are just.. Dwarves. So a bit of a lore dump here. Before dying Melkor (the big bad evil, Satan, Sauron's corruptor and teacher) spread his power, similar to how Sauron spread his power into the one ring which made it corrupting and made it easier to corrupt others. But Melkor didn't spread his power into a tiny artifact, instead he did it to the whole of Middle Earth, corrupting the very land. In a way Melkor's one ring is Middle Earth itself. In this process evil became intrinsically bound to Middle Earth and would crop from it all the time. Because of this the earth itself corrupt, and anything deep within the ground would be evil by it's nature (kind of hinting at hell) and many monsters and creatures come from the dark below, and caves and collapsing things into the ground is important, while distancing yourself from the ground, pushing into heavens in Towers helps the good stay away from evil (and the evil to try to reach towards the good). This is why Dragons seek to have gold and gems, these are imbued with Melkor's evil. And this is why Dragon Sickness, or Gold Sickness, is a thing. A dragon's hoard brings a lot of Melkor's evil, and it corrupts us in the form of Greed. And yet Dwarves, who spend their time in the ground, are very hard to corrupt. Almost everything was created by Illuvatar (God basically), Melkor simply corrupted a lot of those creations to form Orcs, though in other notes he might have made them really badly. An exception was Dwarves, created by the equivalent of an Angel (a Valar) called Ainur, who did a lot of ground-related stuff (similar to Melkor, but unlike Melkor Ainur would repent and remain resilient against corruption) he made the Dwarves (and there's this whole thing of him repenting it, trying to destroy them, and Illuvatar forgiving him and letting the Dwarves live, yadayadayada). Either because the Dwarves were not like Illuvatar's creation (and therefore Melkor, and evil, did not find out how to corrupt them) or because dwarves were made like stones to not change, they were very hard to corrupt. When Sauron had the rings fashioned, the three rings to the elves were out of his reach, because the forger who made them kept them safe. The seven rings of the dwarves worked well, but did little to anything to the dwarves, beyond making them greedier and more aggresive in their ambition. But it did not sway them to Sauron's way, nor made them evil they way it did to the 9 kings who got the rings of men. Corrupt Dwarves like this have appeared at various stages. And in some ways the Thorin who became struck with Dragon Sickness would be how a corrupt race.

[@keeparizonawild156]

Dude I freaking love this. I couldn’t agree more. I have the same mental construct of them as well.

[@SindarinElealar]

Big part to remember is that Goblins during the Hobbit are not yet under the sway of the Dark Lord. In the Battle of the Morannon, we clearly see that Sauron's forces are essentially mindcontrolled; they are not there of their own will, but they are simply easy to bend to his will. Back during the Hobbit he had not yet fully announced himself nor spread his power far beyond Mirkwood, where the growth of evil is noticed. Thus, the Goblins we see in the Hobbit are the only time we see Goblins/Orcs acting of their own volition; even in the Silmarillion, they are almost always subservient to Melkor. After his defeat, many escape and hide in the "deep corners of the world" and multiply. Thus it stands to reason that Goblin settlements like the Goblin-town of Misty Mountains is likely not at all unique a phenomenon, but the behaviour of the Goblins and Orcs under Sauron and Saruman is different, with their minds filled with hatred and war; and indeed, most of those Goblins likely hail from societies emptied by Sauron's call. The "problem of the Orcs" is something Tolkien has gone to some distance talking about how nothing can be truly irredeemable. Also, the Giants and the Trolls simply got rolled into one, I would imagine.

[@willmosse3684]

Good points. But those giants that throw boulders around definitely are not the same things as trolls. They are 100x the size. Mountainous beings.

[@SindarinElealar]

@@willmosse3684 I would agree, but far as the mythos goes, it would stand to reason that giantkin is essentially composed of perversions of the ents like the trolls; they have the size, the strength, and the durability to fit that slot and little else. The same "niche" is filled by especially sun-immune less fairy tale trolls in LotR, just in a more humanely manageable size.

[@patriarch7237]

We might interpret The Hobbit as being Bilbo recounting the story to hobbit children like Frodo. He spices up the narrative of an already dangerous journey over the mountains with rock-throwing giants, and debates with hungry trolls/bad-tempered goblin kings because children will relate to it better - and Bilbo has a more whimsical easygoing nature than Frodo. The Lord of the Rings, related from Frodo's point of view, is a more factual telling of the story as a record, with less "embellishment". Tolkien discussed the concept of female orcs in at least one letter, saying they may exist, but hadn't been seen by the characters hence not appeared anywhere in the stories. I imagine that giants (as creations of Melkor) don't fit with the overall theme that Evil cannot create new things, only corrupt originally Good things, and there is no "good" source for giants in the legendarium.

[@antoniocatorce]

Rock giants could have easily been corrupted Ents... Even really old Ents who got corrupted by Melkor or got really angry at the other races for the damage they were doing to nature. Doesn't wood turn to stone or similar when fossilized?

[@IsaacKuo]

One funny possibility is if Bilbo himself initially didn't feel like telling his stories. He may have found it amusing to hear what crazy rumors everyone else came up with in the absence of him saying what happened. But then Gandalf shows up on a random visit, and he quickly realizes Bilbo hadn't told anyone anything. So, HE decides to start telling Bilbo's story. But with, like, crazy embarrassing alterations everywhere, selectively confirming/embellishing various stupid rumor stories. Gandalf has a great big laugh at Bilbo's expense and Bilbo has to start telling stories just to set the record "straight". The damage has been done, though, and he has to try to incorporate Gandalf's alterations. No one really believes Bilbo but everyone believes Gandalf's confirmations - especially the ones Bilbo denies.

[@patriarch7237]

@@antoniocatorce Supposedly that what Trolls are - descended from corrupted Ents. Who turn to stone in sunlight (at least in The Hobbit, it doesn't come up in LOTR), so maybe? Perhaps there were Ent equivalents of giant redwoods who were captured and twisted by Morgoth...

[@willmosse3684]

@@antoniocatorceEnts aren’t big enough. Trolls are corrupted ents. The giants in the Hobbit are mountain sized creatures, or heading in that direction, rather than tree sized.

[@SindarinElealar]

@@willmosse3684 Our world does contain trees over a 100 meters tall; that's probably plenty to be corrupted into a stone giant (we never get a very exact recounting of their size, just that they're massive to the point that the dwarves, Bilbo, and Gandalf are like ants to them). Or perhaps they were first corrupted and then their stature increased; drawing off mountains instead of woods lets them reach mountainous sizes. It's not hard to come up with explanations for this particular detail.

[@DamonNomad82]

Tolkien actually uses "orc" to describe goblins in "The Hobbit" on two occasions beyond the name of "Orcrist". The first is just after Bilbo escapes from Gollum and is making his way to the "Back Door" of Goblin Town. He notes how low the ceiling of the passage is and speculates that it seems a bit low for goblins, at least the big ones. Tolkien, as narrator, then explains to the reader that even the largest goblins "the orcs of the mountains" can run even when bent almost double. The second is when Gandalf leaves the company at the entrance to Mirkwood, and Bilbo asks him if there is any way around it instead of through it. Gandalf then explains that bypassing Mirkwood to the north would take them into the Grey Mountains, which were full of "goblins, hobgoblins and orcs of the worst description", while bypassing it to the south would take them to the lands of the Necromancer.

[@willmosse3684]

Yes. In the “orcs of the mountains” passage, Tolkien explains that BIG goblins are called Orcs. So they are the same species, but smaller varieties referred to simply as Goblins, larger as Orcs. This is what Warhammer Fantasy went with, so it’s definitely how I saw the distinction as a kid, even though Tolkien only says it one time, and doesn’t maintain the distinction in LOTR, just calling them all Orcs at this later time. Does he ever use the term Goblin in LOTR or The Silmarillion? I don’t remember him doing so, but I could be wrong.

[@DamonNomad82]

@@willmosse3684 I don't recall Tolkien ever using the term "goblin" in the Silmarillion, but he definitely used it on multiple occasions to refer to orcs in Lord of the Rings. In The Two Towers, when describing Saruman's Uruk-hai, Tolkien refers to some that were slain by Boromir as "goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands". Later, when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are inspecting the site where the Rohirrim fought and killed the orcs at the edge of Fangorn, they see "a great pile of helms and mail, cloven shields, and broken swords, bows and darts and other gear of war. Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head; upon its shattered helm the white badge could still be seen." When recounting Pippin and Merry's captivity in the clutches of the Uruk-hai, Pippen observes Ugluk, the leader of Saruman's force (whose severed head was "the great goblin head" on the stake mentioned above) confronting Grishnakh, the leader of the Mordor faction of orcs. "Round them were many smaller goblins".

[@ThunderhawkVeronicaLazerwolf]

When Professor Tolkien realized that "goblin" was a word of French descent, he changed it to "orc", which is Anglo-Saxon. He was a Professor of Anglo Saxon Language. As insane as it is to consider, The Hobbit, LOTR, and the Silmarillion were a SIDE HUSTLE, not even his full time job! He was a beast

[@maegliinvalantor6441]

Probably would’ve been a hell of a GM

[@jameshumphrey2345]

Let's not overlook the Shagrat and Gorbag episode at the end of The Two Towers. They both had what we would call evil motivations, but they were evidently capable of friendship and respect, even across ethnic lines. Of course this proves pretty fragile, and the knives come out once suspicions and insults start flying. But it is a flash of humanity, or orcanity, or whatever.

[@middleearthtales]

Yes,these two show that they can somehow come together for a common purpose if there isn't someone to rule over them from above,. But it's important not to forget that these two will turn on each other very shortly. They are undoubtedly an interesting duo.

[@thylange]

In the chapter "flotsam and jetsam", Merry mentions Goblins and also humans with "goblin faces, sallow, leering, squint eyed." Aragorn calls them "half orcs". So this suggest that they were different to Uruk-hai.

[@DoomMomDot]

Its worth noting that in the Two Towers, there is clearly a difference between the orcs of the misty mountains, the orcs of the Eye, and the orcs of the White Hand. so using goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs might be just a way to mention those differences. as for the Elves of Mirkwood, its worth noting that they were the descendants of the Elves who never saw the Two Trees, and were regarded by those who had seen the Two Trees as slightly wild.

[@docblade3270]

I am a writer, not as amazing as tolkien of course, but my story goes for thousands of pages and i created a very long lore and universe, and before publish the first book, i had to rewrite it because it was written some 10 years ago, and i got amazed how the concepts and other things were changed and evolved as the story developed, so, if i had published the first book as originally was, it would be way inferior to what is now, and even have some errors! And even now, i already want to change some things in next editions! So, i understand why concepts and ideas can be changed or left behind, because i use to say that "the story didn't go in that direction"!

[@In.Gy.]

I want to share my headcanon. They are all orcs, but Goblins are orcs specially adapted to life underground. They are smaller, weaker, and incapable of facing sunlight. But they're more agile and excellent climbers. Mordor orcs, or just regular orcs, are a well-balanced all-terrain type of orc. They can stand indirect sunlight and are larger than Goblins, strong, and well suited for overland travel. They lost the climbing ability, though. Then you have Saruman's half-orcs. Which are fine in the sun, much smarter than orcs, but weaker. About on par if not stronger than humans. Then there's Uruks, which is more of a rank among orcs to denote the strongest among them. The Uruk-hai Saruman made are super orcs, basically.

[@machinegunftw86]

I dig it...😂😂😂😂

[@maximus3160]

Nope

[@richardthomas5362]

I got the impression that the mountain orcs are sort of "regular" orcs, they were bred that way by Morgoth. Both Sauruman and Sauron did their genetic experiments to make orcs stronger. Sauruman bred orcs and men to get something larger and stronger, like Ugluk. Grishnakh, in the book, was much larger but more apelike - a sort of orc which had been either selectively bred or magically enhanced on the genetic level. Sauruman's Uruk-Hai stood upright like men. Sauron's apparently didn't.

[@Qbliviens]

You could argue that there's a distinction between Wild Orcs living and breeding in the Misty Mountains, you could call those goblins, and Saurons Orcs which are larger and more human like. Uruks are definitely not a rank but a breed of Orcs that is stronger and bigger, there are both Mordor Uruks and the ones of Saruman,m which where cross bread with men. There are also Troll Orc hybrids in Mordor if I remeber correctly

[@olthac]

I always felt that that was the case. Goblins are just a type of orc. Like pugs are a type of dog. The Hobbit had several things that sort of vanished, but not really.

[@somerandomperson8282]

I think Tolkien got the Orcs right in LOTR. They should not be overly civilized, they are the harbingers of doom, bred for violence by dark forces to be an existential threat for all good races.

[@fantasywind3923]

Tolkien actually used the terms interchangeably! So Goblin or Orc is just different name for same type of creature! For goodness sake in Lotr even the Uruk-hai are sometimes called 'goblins' (but in the case of Uruks, all Uruks are Orcs, but not all Orcs are Uruks :)). Stone Giants are the one anomaly...though the legends of giants are mentioned in Lotr as well....Tolkien could have easily explained their existance too if he wanted :)....I feel Stone Giants are the unique element of this world. It's feature so I accept they DO 'exist' in Middle-earth :)...along wiht many other unexplained, unknown, nameless dare I say ;), things and creatures out there that were not accounted for...for there are many mysteries in the world! "Also the Orcs (goblins) and other monsters bred by the First Enemy are not wholly destroyed." Letter 131 ... "Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in. The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarin and uruk in the Black Speech." Letter 144 ... There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs: and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men. Upon their shields they bore a strange device: a small white hand in the centre of a black field; on the front of their iron helms was set an S-rune, wrought of some white metal. The Uruk Hai, The Two Towers ... "Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head; upon its shattered helm the white badge could still be seen." Two Towers ... "'Not a sound but the wind,' he said. `There are no goblins near, or my ears are made of wood. It is to be hoped that the Orcs will be content with driving us from Moria. And maybe that was all their purpose, and they had nothing else to do with us-with the Ring. Though Orcs will often pursue foes for many leagues into the plain, if they have a fallen captain to avenge.'" So is this silly argument over...I think so :). In The Hobbit: "If you have ever seen a dragon in a pinch, you will realize that this was only poetical exaggeration applied to any hobbit, even to Old Took’s great-grand-uncle Bullroarer, who was so huge (for a hobbit) that he could ride a horse. He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in the Battle of the Green Fields, and knocked their king Golfimbul’s head clean off with a wooden club." In LotR he says of the same event "2747 Bandobras Took defeats an Orc-band in the Northfarthing."/"And later in the days of Arassuil, Orcs, multiplying again in the Misty Mountains, begin to ravage the lands, and the Dúnedain and the sons of Elrond fought with them. It was at this time that a large band came so far west as to enter the Shire, and were driven off by Bandobras Took." The Hobbit: "‘The passage was low and roughly made. It was not too difficult for the hobbit, except when, in spite of all care, he stubbed his poor toes again, several times, on nasty jagged stones in the floor. “A bit low for goblins, at least for the big ones,” thought Bilbo, not knowing that even the big ones, the orcs of the mountains, go along at great speed stooping low with their hands almost on the ground.’" So yeah...the word Orc is used in The Hobbit book. To be precise there is another case of use of 'orc': ""Before you could get round Mirkwood in the North you would be right among the slopes of the Grey Mountains, and they are simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs of the worst description." The name of the swords introduced in Hobbit book: "Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin" The term goblin is used often in The Hobbit: "Day drew on. The goblins gathered again in the valley. There a host of Wargs came ravening and with them came the bodyguard of Bolg, goblins of huge size with scimitars of steel. Soon actual darkness was coming into a stormy sky; while still the great bats swirled about the heads and ears of elves and men, or fastened vampire-like on the stricken. Now Bard was fighting to defend the Eastern spur, and yet giving slowly back; and the elf-lords were at bay about their king upon the southern arm, near to the watch-post on Ravenhill." And Azog is even name the Goblin, in lotr appendices he is the orc chieftain. From the Harper Collins 2006 paperback edition of The Hobbit, Author's Note: "Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all to our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind." Elves....vanish?! Ugghhh I remember that Gandalf is able to vanish and appear seemingly out of thin air when he needed to :) but it's basically his agile stealthiness hahaah.

[@willmosse3684]

Very comprehensive analysis!

[@fantasywind3923]

@@willmosse3684 thanks :).

[@IsaacKuo]

Fascinating analysis! Since these stories are supposedly told through the filter of Bilbo (The Hobbit) and Frodo (The Lord of the Rings), we have a lot of flexibility in interpreting the differences. For a lot of it, we can assume Bilbo was ... uhh ... lying. He was basically telling this story to other Hobbits, who presumably would never leave hicksville so he could say whatever he wanted. In contrast, Frodo was compiling stories from himself and his fellow adventurer Hobbits, plausibly with the help of visitors. And this adventure plausibly left Frodo's spirit too drained to even think of trying to come up with fanciful lies or whatever. With goblins, hobgoblics, and orcs, for example ... Bilbo's adventure did not really expose him that much to the outside world. He may have been confused himself about the differences - if any. Conversely, the adventures of Frodo and the other hobbits were so much more threatened by the orcs that they may have simply not had any time to consider any classifications among them. Frodo could easily just decide to call them all orcs, because they didn't have any "easing in" to learn about which kind were which kind. There was practically no pause in their struggles to try and learn anything more than what they needed in order to try and survive the next day, the next hour, the next minute. And yeah, they'd have a pretty negative view of those orcs, for obvious reasons. Personally, I like to interpret the orcs as basically elves. They might have been twisted in appearance and ideology, and reduced in longevity, but on the inside they were still quintessentially elves. Part of this is my desire to see Morgoth as never really as powerful as he wished he was. And by extension, Saruman wasn't so powerful in making his super-orcs ... they were just half elves (elf-human hybrids). Conveniently, anything in the text that contradicts my interpretation, I can chalk up to Bilbo/Frodo having distorted perspectives. Even with the Silmarillion and such, we're talking stories by the elves - who have their own obvious biases.

[@glenedwards1567]

I feel like the Hobbit was also aimed (at least in my mind) at a younger audience than the LOTR and The Silmarillion. Another difference that always stuck in my mind was the Trolls in the Hobbit vs the LOTR. The 3 in the Hobbit spoke and were intelligent, whereas in the LOTR they are depicted more as beasts or creatures that are owned or controlled by orcs.

[@hobi1kenobi112]

I'd love to see Orc lineage. It'd be fascinating to know exactly where from what or whom they came, the different branches, etc. Whether there was any mixing or they were all geneticdlly engineered. They were woefully treated as a species but of course, one can likely understand Tolkien's thinking. If he made them too familiar, they became too like us, they become 'human-like' in our eyes, and we start to then sympathise with them. And there was no room for sympathy at the time. But looking back now I like to think there's room. 😊

[@richardaproche]

Great video - similar situation with trolls maybe? Very chatty in the Hobbit, but seem to become more mindless in later works

[@keithbidwell7070]

Great content. Love the perspective.

[@uriustosh]

Interchangeable term based on the written sources but I've always head canon'd that goblins are just small orcs. Some tribes of orcs are smaller than others, and I put forth that the weak smallest ones are goblin (orcs). Like dogs, all dogs are dogs but not all breeds look the same or are the same size.

[@fantasywind3923]

The Wood Elves question...it basically is part of the elven enchantments.....some of the elves do have certain abilities and powers....and hell in The Silmarillion elf Eól also had enchantments that would be no doubt in kind similar to those of Wood Elves of Mirkwood: "And it came to pass that he saw Aredhel Ar-Feiniel as she strayed among the tall trees near the borders of Nan Elmoth, a gleam of white in the dim land. Very fair she seemed to him, and he desired her; and he set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out, but drew ever nearer to his dwelling in the depths of the wood." This is very similar case with the enchantments that would be protecting the wood elf feast spots in The Hobbit :).

[@anubis2814]

I always took it to mean that Orcs changed with the return of Sauron. In fact Tolkien himself stated that Orcs needed a strong leader to survive. Since Sauron still existed in some form, they could still exist but once destroyed many committed suicide or wasted away without that force. they became more savage the more powerful Sauron became. Also while elves may have the ability to vanish from non-elvish eyes, elves have the ability to detect each other. As Sam said, Elves can be merry as children one moment and sober as old men in the next depending on the situation. Its this first aspect I which they had explored me in LOTR instead of all of them appearing to have a stick up their asses all the time. Elrond in the Hobbit Movie appeared to portray this at least somewhat jovial tendency among elves. When things got serious, such as after the counsel of Elrond, only then did Elves take that much more stoic serious demeanor we see in the movies. Prior to that they were much more joyful. I think being able to swing between the two depending on the situation is a trait that would be required for someone immortal or living forever would be nothing but depression.

[@fingerfeller]

Thanks!

[@middleearthtales]

thanks a bunch for being our very first Super Chat donor! Your support is so precioussss :)

[@PXCharon]

It's worth noting that the Red Book of Westmarch began as Bilbo's narrative, and ended as Frodo and Sam's. Bilbo was naieve about the world like other Hobbits, and may have perceived encounters with elves, and what he heard about goblin town somewhat differently than reality. Frodo grew up around his uncle with visits from Gandalf, and sometimes dwarves, and was somewhat spurred on by the idea of adventures and heroes. His influence on the Red Book may paint a more stark contrast between friend and enemy.

[@wavetactics13]

The association of smaller orcs with the word goblin predates the Jackson films. The orcs of the Hobbit were from the Misty Mountains, when those orcs were depicted in LotR they were described as smaller and weaker than the Mordor orcs and Isengard Uruk Hai. Folks put 2 and 2 together and the association was enough to carry on into works that drew inspiration from LotR, like DnD, long before the films. Young and female orcs aren't seen for the simple fact that none of the Fellowship go anywhere they would really expect to see them. The only times they might have would have been in Moria or Mordor, and in neither case did they go into an Orc's den. In Moria the orcs came after the Fellowship, and in Mordor Sam and Frodo only entered the watch tower and avoided the orcs as much as they could afterwards.

[@ice9snowflake187]

It's possible that the orcs underwent a societal transformation of some kind between The Hobbit, and Lord Of The Rings. They came under the dominion of Sauron, and their former social structures were replaced with a more regimented and militaristic style of rule.

[@robinsteeden7466]

Goblin town = free range Orcs. Moria and Isengard = controlled, trained Orcs. The Uruk Hai and Moria's black Orcs = improved, scientifically bred orcs.

[@raphaelargus2984]

He does mention orcs specifically in The Hobbit, separately from Orcrist, as well as goblins, and you're right that goblins are probably referring to smaller breeds. My favorite orc of all time was the specialized Tracker Orc from ROTK.

[@DoggosAndJiuJitsu]

That, sir, is an fn unit.

[@the_flyattractor8656]

I like to think that Orcs aren't Born/Created but more that they are Made! Like in the Peter Jackson's LOTR with the Urak Hai. Made by corrupting something of the Earth. Like the Soil and Minerals or even Trees. (Maybe explaining why the Dwarves and Elves don't like them so much) And also explains how there can be so many on a short notice and the different varieties of them. Like FIghting Orcs like Urak. Or the smaller sneaker ones or ones with big noses for sniffing as mentioned in one book.

[@maegliinvalantor6441]

I would say there’s a marked difference In the hobbit between the Rivendell elves and the elves of Mirkwood. And also remember that Elrond refers to the swords being from Gondolin. I would look at the Mirkwood elves being more representative of his later concept of their fading.

[@RedwoodTheElf]

Orcs were described as "The Largest Goblins, the Orcs of the Mountains." in the chapter "Riddles in the Dark", so it's NOT used only once in the name of Thorin's sword. In fact, you contradict your own statement, when you mention that Gandalf mentioned Orcs and Hobgoblins along with Goblins.

[@exharkhun5605]

Don't forget the difference in how orcs talk. Just finished the Hobbit again and I noticed their diction is more advanced than that between modern people on television (which isn't a high bar of course). It may be some whimsy added by the narrator, I've always assumed the narrator is telling the tale to children.

[@bgcvetan]

My head cannon was that Goblins were the most wretched and broken of the Elves and descent from Morgoth's first attempts to corrupt the Elves.

[@hermanmelville3368]

Nice pics

[@michaelmaltzer5426]

Something to think about what things in the hobbit that never appeared again anywhere, is that the hobbit as a tale… . was written by Bilbo and called there and back again… it is highly likely that the things that we see in the hobbit that we never see again are just him making things out to be more than they are to make the journey more stupendous than it might actually have been

[@monolalia]

The Lord of the Rings continues that tradition, though: “THE DOWNFALL OF THE LORD OF THE RINGS AND THE RETURN OF THE KING (as seen by the Little People; being the memoirs of Bilbo and Frodo of the Shire, supplemented by the accounts of their friends and the learning of the Wise.) Together with extracts from Books of Lore translated by Bilbo in Rivendell.”

[@sullir9397]

It's documented, didn't want to say well known, that after the surprising success of the Hobbit which was written to be a simple tale for children, that Tolkien then piggy-backed that success to turn it into his life-long passion project by combing it with the mythology he had been creating when he wrote the Hobbit's continuation, The Lord of the Rings. The reason of this change between both works explains the inconsistencies found between them as he greatly adapted The Lord of the Rings for this purpose.

[@The-Mstr-Pook]

I always got the impression when reading Tolkien, that Orcs are corrupted Elves in lineage. Goblins are corrupted Dwarves, and Uruk-ai are corrupt men, And able to walk in the sun. Men being creatures of the daylight, not of starlight of Elves or caverns deep for Dwarves. Hob-Goblin was a Orc / Goblin interbreed. Like a donkey and a horse to make a Mules.

[@hishamg]

I assumed the difference between the elves of Mirkwood and the elves of Lothlorien is because they are different tribes or nations of elves with different traditions and customs. The same for the goblins and orcs, the goblins of the misty mountains are a different tribe or nation of orcs to the orcs of Mordor. I assumed that misty mountain orcs were independent of Mordor and that they sometimes traded with other races.

[@aidanallan8591]

Saruman tells his Uruk captain about the origin of the Orcs. "They were Elves, once," the White Wizard says. Taken in untold ages, the Dark Powers tortured, corrupted and bred the captive Elves until they became the vile Orcs.

[@Uriel77200]

Dungeons and Dragons took most of its inspiration from these books. They use the word Halfling instead of Hobbit. In D&D Goblins, hobgoblins, and orc are all Goblinoid creatures but different sub races. Orcs were the closest in size to humans, hence the breeding of half orcs with humans was possible. For me, this has always made the most sense and is how I like to compartmentalize the issue.

[@JohnRoy-nx1fu]

I was always led to believe the Moria Orcs were Goblins due to their Green skins but were actually the horribly mutated pink fleshed freaks from The Hobbit ; An Unexpected Journey

[@vodostar9134]

I feel like the portrayal of orc/goblins in the hobbit is the true portrayal... tribal people with a king under the mountain and several subspecies that had different names that were inconsistently applied. And the the (in-fiction) writer of the LOTR intentionally dehumanized (depersonalized?) them as one does to one's enemy in wartime. Overall, good analysis.

[@leehallam9365]

On the elves I would say we don't see the ordinary Mirkwood elves in LOTR, only Legolas who was the Kings son, so we don't know how they would behave in that work. Tolkien is clear there are different elves, most of those portrayed in the later work are of higher status. I think a lot of changes nwith goblins/orcs is just terminology and having multiple names for slight variations used inconsistently is what we do in language in the real word. I don't think Tolkein ever implied that they had any love or affection, my take on it is they were a purpose bread slave race and that deep underground were breading pits where female orcs produced fast maturing youngsters, but that it might have been different for a ruling orc in those places where they ruled themselves. The Beornings are odd, because he had no need to put them in the LOTR, they were not part of The Hobbit, Beorn lived with his animals. It may be they were not mostly of his race, but men who came to live in the lands he made safe. The stone giants, I wonder if they ever were actual real creatures or a way of portraying a terrible storm. Tolkien did actually go back and re-write The Hobbit after writing the LOTR, to change The Riddles In The Dark because the original didn't fit with they new story, he didn't change any of the inconsistencies described, perhaps because they were not important enough, or perhaps he just didn't consider them to be inconsistent.

[@chriswerth918]

The idea I got from reading Tolkien was that all evil creatures got the Goblin Spirit, an original evil, spawned by the Morgoth, himself. We can read about Goblin Men, the evil spirits send by the Witch King to possess the Barrow-Wights or even the powerful spirit planted in the body of Glaurung, the dragon. All of those are Goblin. As well as all the Orc are. So... every Orc is a Goblin. But not every Goblin is an Orc.

[@korak2183]

The most close thing to goblins in the films at least, are the called orcs from moria, whilst physically resembling goblins the most.

[@dearthditch]

I thought maybe Tolkiens reflections on his time at war changed his tone. Especially when it happened a second time. Good and evil seemed more black and white

[@OldBaldWookiee]

There are seperate species of goblins and orcs and uruk hai ( the ones who attacked helms deep) the goblins are the ones who were in moria which was def from the lotr trilogy

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

that is a movie destinction. in the books there are different breeds but they are all called orcs and goblins, even the uruk-hai are sometimes called goblins.

[@imperatorvespasian3125]

I always took it Goblin was the Dwarf name for Orc

[@JohnnyNakatomi]

Gorbag of Minas Morgul was a Goblin.

[@CoSmiC__VoiCe]

First of all, I apologize for my English mistakes caused by the translator. I think Tolkien is a great literary master in terms of fantasy. But in former years there was no criticism and comparison like now. For this reason, continuity errors often occurred. Consider the topic that Tolkien fans criticize the most in the Peter Jackson adaptation. "Tom Bombadil." Tolkien never even explained the type of this "being". "He's just Tom Bombadil." said. There are similar mysteries about the common origins of Maiar and Balrogs. These are supposed to be the same kind of beings, but they don't look like that in the Silmarillion. As far as I'm concerned, Tolkien never rebooted what he wrote later with the influence of the poet aspect. In other words, he left the concepts that he had changed while writing with the old ones in his previous works. Saruman created the Uruk-hai, but I don't remember it being mentioned in detail in the book. One of the reasons for this is that it is not written in chronological order. In fact, the whole story actually derives from a poem (Beren and Luthien). The first Hobbit is being published, followed by the Lord of the rings trilogy. But the real stories are in the silmarillion, and unfortunately this book never ends, it can't be completed. That's the reason for the confusion. In the film adaptation, Saruman tells them, "you used to be elves". In the books, Melkor is blamed for this situation, and the origin of elves and orcs is the same. Goblin is more of a mythological nomenclature than an English term. In mythology, elves are neutral, they are not good or bad. However, in northern mythology, cursed and corrupt, mutilated elves are called Goblins. They look like Satyrs in concept. Orcs nomenclature is not very common. Tolkien published The Hobbit in 1937, The Lord of the Rings in 1954-55, and Simarillion in 1977. (edited and published posthumously by his son Christopher Tolkien in 1977) There are a total of 40 years between them The issue of races is what confuses the most here and causes "unfair criticism" directed at Tolkien. We don't see female dwarfs in books either. The 7 dwarfs of snow white in fairy tales? Why are they all men? That's what Tolkien does. What you call a dwarf is not the dwarf we know. Fairy tale dwarf. So are the Hobbits. It's always a mystery. After the film adaptation, computer games came out. Games like World of Warcraft thought of the races in these mythologies, which Tolkien made famous in the modern era, as real races. This is not true. Let's think about an orc. Boy orc? Here, in fact, Tolkien is making a mistake, and many similar mistakes, he admits it. Gollum talks about the baby orcs he killed. That's just why we think about the young and child orcs. In the Hobbit, there are Azog and Bolg, father and son. (Actually, Azog doesn't exist much, Azog is the main villain in the film adaptation.) Child orcs are not impossible, but they are close to impossible. Because an orc means an elf who has been corrupted, tortured for thousands of years, no one can be born as an orc. It is difficult to think that they had a sexual relationship, Tolkien purposely omitted these parts. (he was writing for children) Even if a birth is possible, the child will have to be corrupted, and there are not many explanations in Tolkien about dark spells here, for example, the Necromancer, an ancient form of Sauron. So corrupting a child with black magic or giving birth with black magic these are creepy subjects that Tolkien doesn't like, ghoulish fairy tales. (John Ronald Reuel Tolkien, not. It could be George Raymond Richard Martin) In summary, when an orc is born, he is born as an elf. The answer to the question of why a female orc is not seen (not mentioned)is the same as the question of why there is no female dwarf. There is, but it didn't need to be mentioned. As Sauron grows stronger and comes out of the shadows, the number of orcs is increasing. Here again, there is a production that takes place by magic, the details of which have never been entered. But as shown in the film adaptation, they are not created from mud, that is, soil. That's why Saruman Uruk-Hai was telling you about his origin in the movie anyway. Tolkien never goes into the following topics in his books: topics that cannot be explained to children or may be difficult for children to understand. Orcs are also like immortal elves, and evil weakens them. Apart from the Hobbit, goblins or orcs are small ugly creatures, that's how the books describe them. The opposite of elves. The mythological original elves are small green ugly beings, malicious or playful fairies. Then came the different versions. Very beautiful and typical of northerners, they are depicted as blonde, for example. Its original form is a genie in eastern mythology. Tolkien seems to have thought of all of them. He later likened the elves to imposing, noble, elegant, but powerful warriors. They were more magical beings before, and we also see these old features in the Hobbit. You know Glorfindel. In fact, he died fighting a balrog in the first era. However, he also appears early in the Lord of the rings novel. This is a topic that kept Tolkien very busy because there are no two elves with the same name who lived in Arda. That is why Tolkien describes him as having been sent back to middle-earth (for an unknown mission) through the Valar. Because even though his sketches were written a long time in advance, the Silmarillion da Glorfindel was not supposed to die. Or the fact that there is no elf of that name in the lord of the rings trilogy. So is the issue of child orcs. In fact, orcs should never have been children, they should not have been born as orcs. However, a dialogue in the Gollum and Bilbo encounter broke the continuity.

[@middleearthtales]

I enjoyed reading it very much. Thank you for your contribution. you said an orc was an elf at birth. So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that each orc is changed from elf by black magic. I think the weak point of this theory is that orcs multiply even when sauron is not in charge.

[@CoSmiC__VoiCe]

@@middleearthtales Yes, true. In any case, it is never explained how Sauron increased the number of orcs. However, it is also not explained why they decreased in number during Sauron's absence. Tolkien associates it with evil, but does not describe how it happens. When the Balrog dominates in Moria (Khazad-Dum), the orcs also gather there. The Balrog there does not take orders from Sauron, but derives from the same evil(Morgoth). It defines everything, if you don't leave questions to ask, it won't be a fairy tale. In this respect, Tolkien was different from modern writers. (more adult and professional in terms of fiction) He had a natural talent that was inspired by the oldest traditions and poetic, epic storytelling.

[@matthewseanmclachlan]

"Intriguingly" nice touch of Elfish grammar lol

[@AdaKitten]

For me, The Hobbit was Tolkien's story told to his children, while his later more researched and elaborate work was what we can nit-pick and discuss. The first one was just a light-hearted adventure aimed at his kids, and only an indicator of what would come later. Putting too much emphasis on the Hobbit seems a bit futile in that context. To me anyway.

[@Lasu_X]

Hmm Dwarfs and Orcs hating each other the most, then we have Musli and Juice religions hmm xD

[@TheKulu42]

I think there were orc women and children, but we just don't see them much. For instance, would it be possible to immediately tell the difference between male and female orcs when a mob of them is on the attack? As for orc children, many of the so-called "goblins" could be children. I imagine orc children growing quickly so they could fill Sauron's ranks.

[@fredgilbert2032]

Orcs are goblins and goblins are orcs. End of story the terms are used interchangeably in both the Hobbit and LotR. However, there are different 'races' of orc/goblin much like there are 'races' of man each adapted to their home environment or bred for certain traits. Some are bigger some are smaller some even look different, have different builds, strengths and weaknesses. Much like the races of man. There is nothing to indicate in any of the works that there are not Orc women either. If I showed you a movie like 'Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World' would you assume that humans have no females because they are not depicted in the movie?

[@runningsuperska]

The AI is a bit creepy.

[@JohnMinehan-lx9ts]

In the Hobbit, the Dwarves, Bilbo and Grandalf are on Orc ground. In the Lord of the Rings, Orcs are just presented as an Army. The Elves in The Hobbit are a cut off group of Elves who have lost part of their culture and are dangerous because they are fickle and trivial.

[@brucehunter8235]

You said that "orc" is only mentioned in The Hobbit once as part of the name "Orcrist", but later on you mention Gandalf talking to Bilbo about "goblins, hobgoblins and orcs". Which is it? (I like your videos very much btw).

[@middleearthtales]

You're absolutely right. I've contradicted myself. I should have said it is mentioned in very few places. Thank you I appreciate it!

[@aelfredrex8354]

I see the Hobbit as more of a stand-alone work with most elements of the overall Tolkien world, but not as true to that world as the others.

[@b.benjamineriksson6030]

"in reality an orc doesn't need a reason to..." 😂😂🤣

[@donwilliams3464]

The Urak-hai were an abomination; a mix of Orc and Elf. This is referenced in The Two Towers.

[@MiningForPies]

Orcs are called goblins a number of times in Lord of the Rings. He tends to use Goblins or the more rustic hobbits.

[@BigT2664]

I disagree with some of your assertions. Goblins and Orcs are different. It's like Dobermans and Chihuahuas, they may be distantly related, but nobody is ever going to confuse a Chihuahua with a Doberman. The Battle of Horns Deep is completely different, since those were neither orcs nor goblins, but Uruks. Saruman had magically combined the genetics of men and orcs to create them.

[@middleearthtales]

Actually, it is Sauron who created the Uruk-hai not Saruman. He starts using them long before Saruman. Thanks for the comment. But I think there is nothing to support what you say in the later books. If goblin are different why do you think they don't appear in silmarillion or lotr?

[@mattias969]

In my country we have many folk tales about stone throwing giants. But they are mostly good and not evil. The same with the troll folk or the fae. There are many tales of trolls actually cooperating with humans like lending out their copper cauldrons to poor old women. Also we have the elfs aswell and they act alot like they do in the hobbit i grew up in a rural town near the primal forest here and my old grannie used to tell these tales to me. Tolkien didnt invent these things they are old northern European folk tales

[@marc-andretrudeau4412]

Tolkien stated time and time again that there is no pure evil in middle earth. He doesnt belive in thr concept of pure evil, so orcs cannot be pure evil.

[@thehellyousay]

in the hobbit, there is mention of "biggest goblins, the orcs of the mountains". goblin are orcs. the hobbit was a kids' tale, the lord of the rings was for an older audience. geez, belabour a nothingburger of a premise to death, already.

[@srstriker6420]

What is the difference between an orc and a goblin, what about the Big Bad before Sauron and Smug?

[@kennkoala]

Where does Gollum get the wood to make a boat? If he stole a boat, why do the Orcs have boats?

[@Qbliviens]

This always bothered me in regard to trolls. In the Hobbit they talk to each other and the dwarfs/Bilbo, and while being dumb and brutish abnd wanting to eat them, they still have some form of conciousness and culture. In the lotr they are just like rabid animals on the lose, without any reason.

[@a.N.....]

Saurons domination over them turned them into real monsters? Years of breeding programs made them dumb

[@joemck74]

For somebody with a Lotr channel, you seem to miss a lot of the basic principles of the world/story.

[@middleearthtales]

such as...

[@jaebrowne6780]

I am dragon… 😂😂😂😂😂 okay bro lmao

[@somerandomperson8282]

Is this a real voice or an AI voice? I am assuming AI voice due to some odd inflections and overly consistent tone, but it's getting damn hard to tell. sometimes.

[@hakanofrivia7011]

He explained in the past videos it is AI narrated for special reasons. Maybe he or she has speech disability, I dont know. But the content is quality..

[@atol71]

Maybe the goblins did not live in Middle Earth lore area. Elfs and stealing goblins....

[@matthewheimann4492]

Goblins and Orks are the same thing. It states that in the first chapter of the Hobbit.

[@RoyCyberPunk]

Well they already had trolls/ogres and orcs and the freaking Nazgul for crying out loud so adding giants/Nephilim to the mix would have been overkill considering Sauron already had Corsairs and other humans at his service and disposal as well.

[@whynottalklikeapirat]

The stone throwing giants are not orcs they’re like … stone throwing giants … cos … they’re giant and-uh … throw stones. So … yeah …

[@NostalgicGamerRickOShay]

I can't help but think that this is where Skyrim is better than Lord of the Rings in that orcs make more sense in the Skyrim universe.

[@machinegunftw86]

We need more orc characters and stories..🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@mattias969]

Orcs were once elves

[@davidcoupal8083]

how did you guys get a picture of my sister-in-law

[@rubenlarochelle1881]

Where is the anomaly about female and young orcs? We don't see them in Lord of the Rings simply because we only see their military, which is made of adult males.

[@maul42]

So, this is probably written and narrated by an AI, eh?

[@gandalf4751]

😍😍😍👌

[@Lengsel7]

Goblins are smaller and more cat like, with big saucer-shaped eyes and pointy chins. Orcs are more human-looking.

[@Xerxes2005]

The explanation is actually quite simple: The Hobbit was not meant to be part of Tolkien's legendarium. It was not set in Middle Earth, and so each race is not the same as they are in The Silmarillion. It's only while writing TLotR that he decided to set this story in Middle Earth after all and changed the races accordingly.

[@RoyCyberPunk]

Dude that's impossible given the fact that Bilbo is prominently in both books and is clearly the same character 🙄

[@Xerxes2005]

@@RoyCyberPunk It is quite possible. Tolkien wrote The Hobbit as a children's book. It doesn't even mention "Middle Earth" at all. Tolkien always wanted to write and publish the Silmarillion, but he was asked to write a sequel to The Hobbit. He began writing the new novel as if it was The Hobbit 2, with a simple quest. Then he asked himself "what Bilbo's ring really is?" That's when he decided to place the action of his new novel in Middle Earth. But he had to make changes to The Hobbit for the 2nd edition. So he introduce tales of Gondolin by Elrond, and he changed the way Bilbo got the Ring. That's why, when Frodo tells Gandalf that Bilbo told him how he got the Ring, Gandalf answers "Which story, I wonder." But he couldn't change anything. So The Hobbit remained a fairy tale with whimsical Elves and Goblins and Trolls who speak Cockney.

[@fingerfeller]

interesting, i do not believe orcs and goblins to be of orcish nationality, goblins are underground and dont take to the sunlight, some orc were also light sensitive, thus the creation of uruk-ai (sp?), which can exist and battle during the day, and then trolls , pale orcs, the orc battle in a tower in mordor sam comes upon, perception is an amazing action, how something appears to look and feel compared to another individual which could be totally against that interpretation (perception) , idea. etc. i do think they are two different creatures , and orcs are supposedly created by abused elves if i recall, its possible goblins came from abused elves, but the things saruman and the worker orcs created were uruk-ai if i recall, but if orcs were not able to be in light ( as the rings of power even alludes to ) why were there orcs in the 5 armies battle during the day?, did that battle occur during the day in the book because it sure happened in the day in The Hobbit, strange

[@jeffpotipco736]

The hobbit was a kids story. Lord of the Rings was not.

[@498lbrw]

You should quit using an A.I reader in these videos. Definitely an orc-like practice.

[@hakanofrivia7011]

He explained this many times in his past videos. Maybe he has a weird voice or speech disability. The AI would certainly give a lot of people opportunity to create the content and share it on youtube. I respect that..

[@clownofthetimes6727]

Goblin was a word for small orcs.

[@maximus3160]

No. Goblin = Orc, no more no less

[@h0plite996]

They descended from the Trumpers.

[@DonMeaker]

Orcs are Germans, Dwarves are Jews, the French Catholics are Men, and the English Protestants are Men. Dwarves, like Jews, were dispossessed, hoping to return to their ancestral homelands.

[@nutellanorbert2799]

I cant stand this elevenlabs generated ai preset voice - sorry.