Which 2LT is Best? | West Point vs. ROTC vs. OCS

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Which is the best commissioning source for Second Lieutenants? West Point, ROTC, or OCS? And how can a commander make the most of the 2LTs they get?
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Note: The views expressed in this video are the presenter's and do not represent the policy or guidance of the Department of Defense or its subordinate elements.
( • How to Apply the Joint... )

[@willclayton9909]

trick qustion there all lost🤣

[@the_bureaucrat]

I'm pinning this one because after reading all the nuance and insight that everybody has... @willclayton9909 makes the most important point of all...a 2LT by definition is lost. They do not know what they do not know. And thus all of the following comments with advice to listen to good NCOs etc...it is all rooted in this simple fact.

[@cptkiddokidd5137]

But we could spell "question" and "they're." 😬

[@hawkeyeriza9941]

So true I had no idea what the hell I was doing. And my constant fear was maybe this time CO is going to eat me alive in front of all the enlisted men.

[@titusp9280]

They’re

[@jimreilly917]

Only if given a map and compass.

[@charlesharrington9116]

The one who listens to their NCOs.

[@francisebbecke2727]

I am an ROTC graduate who served 5 years active and 25 years in the reserves. The smartest thing I did both active and reserve was to talk to a smart NCO before making any decision of any consequence. It almost always worked out for the best. Note: If you talk to a dumb NCO the process still works, but in reverse.

[@steveshapland8846]

This was drilled into me in high school ROTC!

[@donnaweinstein9371]

Also being a prior NCO before being commissioned. Mustang up!

[@JacksonFive-rj3so]

The best officers come from the NCO Corps! This is a fact

[@the_bureaucrat]

Listen to the good NCOs.

[@Chamhaole]

Kudos on your summary. The best LTs are the ones that are willing to work hard, but also be teachable and adaptable.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Ain't that the truth?

[@Wardog6]

A USMC boot 2LT who barely graduated PLC is better than most Army officers

[@soarabove337]

@@the_bureaucrat it absolutely IS the truth and that begets "Leadership Style"; I'd give a +1 to simple OCS grads that legit didn't have "Style Points" as part of their curricula (whereas the other two most definitely did). After scrolling through some other posts, I'll render my own (Army 11BP NCO) judgment later lol.

[@denniswhalen6190]

The only thing in the military equally as useless as a 2nd Louie is wet toilet paper. Call him/her lieutenant (can’t be called out for insubordination) until they have earned respect, then LT when the respect is there.

[@l4c390]

Chuck, ROTC is a very diverse commissioning source. For example, there are more prior service enlistees/NCOs who commission via ROTC through the Green to Gold program, than commission via OCS. I'd almost have to list this as a 4th category.

[@gregbailey1753]

And there are ROTC cadets from THE CITADEL, VMI and Norwich who have a military but unique culture and some cow colleges with unique Corps of Cadets (VA TECH, Nort Georgia and TAMU).

[@kevinbergeman4069]

@@gregbailey1753the six Senior Military Colleges provide a middle ground, civilian students around and a full time military experience. I was commissioned through the Corps of Cadets at TAMU.

[@carlhicksjr8401]

@@gregbailey1753 VMI, the Citadel, and Norwich are all professional officer academies, unlike A&M or the cow colleges. They graduate officers of the Regular Army with the same dates of rank as Hudson High. Yes, there are ROTC officers mixed in with them, but those officers are usually local state kids who have a lower acceptance bar than the Regulars.

[@gregbailey1753]

@carlhicksjr8401 I am a 1987 Citadel grad. No, we are not. We are ROTC programs. Only a few are regular Army and only 50% take commissions of any kind (speaking of The Citadel). Our unique Corps of Cadets prepare us well, but we are very different from a Federal school. In some ways better as we are much less cutthroat than our West Point peers and more team oriented. That is my dated experience and observations from classmates who have been stationed at West Point.

[@carlhicksjr8401]

@@gregbailey1753 Fair enough. That must have changed then. I haven't worn the suit for more than a little bit.

[@carlhicksjr8401]

Army veteran here. In my experience, and to be sure this was some time ago, I found veterans who went ROTC to be the best officers. They were older and more mature than the average butterbar, they had a sense of the both the Army and the civilian world, they knew which of the rocks and shoals to avoid and which they could risk, and they listened when you told them something. The worst officers, no matter which training program got them their commission, were the ones that thought they knew how to be an operational leader and didn't think that an E4 and below could tell them anything useful. These were the clowns who would throw an enlisted man under the bus for the sake of their career even if they themselves were at fault. And the **absolute** worst were the ring knockers that got spawned out of the Southern academies... VMI, the Citadel, and A&M. Every Goddamn one of them thought they were Jeb Stuart Jr. They had all the failings of the average shitbrick with an added sense that they are 'Southern gentlemen' who had a sense of 'honor'.

[@the_bureaucrat]

That's a good lesson for a junior officer: "E4's can teach you things".

[@carlhicksjr8401]

@@the_bureaucrat The E4 Mafia: Try doin' this shit without us. 🤣

[@azpete6436]

I served with each. My experience was that ROTC were usually pretty good, OCS could be very good of they were enlisted ranks who applied to OCS. West Pointers took a while to get over themselves, but could be turned into good officers once they began to listen to their men....PS I was a 25 year old E5 with a Bachelors degree, in a technical MOS.

[@carlhicksjr8401]

@@azpete6436 That's about par with my experience, with the big differences being that I was younger than you at the time and I was serving in cavalry regiment [a hot-shit assignment for that era]. ACRs got a lot of the so-called 'best' and allegedly 'brightest' from the prestige schools and many of our second johns had a hard time adjusting to life in the motor pool. And it isn't as if a platoon of enlisted men aren't judgemental assholes or anything 😆

[@성이름-p9t6t]

So G2G. Yeah, I feel like G2G, though they go through ROTC, should've been counted as a different category here.

[@dlondon1144]

Having been an NCO in the US Army and a commissioned officer in the British Army (via Sandhurst) I have to agree with your conclusion. It takes a mix of officer types to really make a unit work well. The one thing that really stood out for me as an NCO was that Mustangs and Ring-Knockers tended to be in it for the long haul while the ROTC officers were much more likely to leave after 5 years. This might be why there are so many West Point grads in the highest levels of the army and so many mustangs in Battalion/Regiment and Brigade staff jobs. BTW - you can usually tell a Mustang officer by his coffee cup - it will never be far from his hand and it will almost always be long-term unwashed. It's not that they don't care about hygiene. It's that the grunge inside the cup carries a reserve of caffeine, just in case.

[@the_bureaucrat]

My old 1SG said that the grungy coffee was "lifer juice". One memorable midnight he told me "Don't drink that or you'll be in the Army for life"...and so it was.

[@Briselance]

Still a bit of an eww moment.😅

[@soarabove337]

Nope, I'm sorry but that's the wrong answer: let's see how much you wagered.... oh wow, taking you down to $0 😉🤣.

[@gregorybrennan8539]

Ah, no. They have the stats on this.95% of West Point leave after LEAGELY REQUIRED service. 95%, Hura!

[@Doc_Egan]

I agree. I have seen good and bad ones from all 3 pipelines.

[@carlhicksjr8401]

True words. Integrity isn't something you can teach at an academy, college, or course. Integrity is learned by making mistakes, taking the consequences and learning from your errors. And it can only be learned in the real world, where the consequences are real not demerits.

[@the_bureaucrat]

@carlhicksjr8401 is right. Integrity is vital. It can't be taught. And it can only be learned in the real world. Powerful words there.

[@jimflowers6455]

I've served with all three types. The "best" depends almost entirely on the characteristics of the individual rather than the source of their commission and education. Some stereotypes do apply: West Pointers are more rigid and rule-following and OCS (and prior service ROTC) products are more experienced and practical. A new officer needs to exercise their eyes and ears more than their voice and pay attention to the NCOs.

[@the_bureaucrat]

You're getting a lot of thumbs up because you are right on many levels.

[@danielbeach4855]

When I hit my first platoon in Schweinfurt, 1985 with 3-7 Cav, I did not wear my ring for the first 6 months. I wanted to make my own way vs. suffer the stereotype of the ring knocker. The first day I put the ring back on and walked into the CP one of my NCOs bellowed "Holy Shit, Sir! You're a ring knocker?!" That was great feedback to me that I was doing a good job at leading my scouts.

[@the_bureaucrat]

That's a good story.

[@TradBowBruce]

There is a fourth type of 2LT...the former enlisted who attends a secondary military academy, like Norwich, Citadel and VMI, for example, who is commissioned through ROTC. They have the best of all three worlds! :) Actually, it was my WWII NCO Grandfather who told that when I get to my platoon, to tell my NCOs to run the platoon and I will get them all the resources they need and keep the old man happy and out of our business...in turn keep me in the loop of all and any potential landmines...proof positive, I had the best platoon and company in the Battalion.

[@carlhicksjr8401]

In my top comment I said that veterans who go on to get a commission were the best officers I ever served under. They were more mature and they actually listen when you tell them something.

[@dlondon1144]

I had a mustang CO once who's watchword to the NCO support chain was simply this - "Don't let me be surprised." He viewed his role as CO as being two-fold: 1 - complete the mission, and 2 - do everything he could to facilitate the NCOs' efforts to help him complete job 1. He reckoned he couldn't run interference if he was caught off guard, hence - no surprises, please.

[@the_bureaucrat]

That point about managing the flow of information and "no surprises" is a huge point in terms of organizational and personal success.

[@oldtop4682]

I just made a comment about the Citadel and VMI, but put it Texas A&M. I forgot about Norwich - I never encountered one of those guys, but know about the school. Your grandfather was wise.

[@TradBowBruce]

@@oldtop4682 thanks...he sure was! Yeah, we Norwich guys are an oddity...lol :)

[@Engtissueman]

USAF ROTC product commissioned in 1971. I had one advantage in that my father was a Seaman in WWII and USAF officer after the war retiring with 22 years total service. He gave me both perspectives. He also taught me the importance of listening to senior NCO’s. That served me well in my five years in the USAF. I was one of two munitions officer stationed on a detachment of 90 in Turkey. My first counterpart was ROTC also. We worked great together. He was replaced by an academy grad who I fortunately outranked. When he was figuring out who had rank, I explained to him that his predecessor and I had the same commissioning date and went on active duty the same day. He said, “Then you use date of birth to establish who is the ranking officer”. I told him that we didn’t care about who was the ranking officer. If it was in his area, he made the decision. If it was in my area, I made the decision. If it was my area and I wasn’t around, then he made the decision and vice versa. He had trouble understanding the concept.

[@the_bureaucrat]

That is a great point about a military family. My dad and his friends were from the Vietnam era and didn't serve. I had no real idea what I was getting into, but my kids had a huge edge when it came to what to expect.

[@clhagy]

Found this absolutely fascinating. Never stopped to think about how the different paths to becoming an officer would impact that officer in his/her role. Very well done - brilliant analysis. And I agree - a mix is what is needed.

[@the_bureaucrat]

That is kind of you.

[@robertcourtemanche9185]

What you basically said is that mustangs are great for the troops and ring knockers are great for the brass.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Would you disagree?

[@robertcourtemanche9185]

@@the_bureaucrat I really like the idea of having all three types of officers, not just at the 2LT level, but at every level - and unfortunately you rarely see a mustang make it to general officer.

[@joebobgrizzler9963]

I watched them come and go. The best was an 11B who had been in Ranger Battalion, then went SF and got tabbed, was Pathfinder as well. All schooled up. PT stud. Went to OCS as an E6 He was a 30 year old Infantry Platoon Leader. I'd have followed him through the Gates of Hell.

[@the_bureaucrat]

OK...but just based on that bio...I think I'd follow him too. I mean, that is one hell of a resume.

[@robertreese867]

I commissioned ROTC after serving 4 yr enlisted. Ring knockers were always too political though a met a few good ones. OCS usually were squared away but often we’re afraid to break rules. ROTC had the gamut of crappy officers to high quality. For all, the key was a company CO who put the new 2Lt with the best platoon daddy and told the young officer, “He’s in charge until he tells me you’re ready to take the reins.”

[@the_bureaucrat]

This is such a unique perspective. My experience had almost no one actively putting new 2LTs with NCOs chosen to develop them. If anything, it seemed random. I'm glad someone out there was thinking.

[@johndeboyace7943]

OCS during Vietnam war, almost everyone in the class, Arty OCS, was a college graduate draftee save one, a green beret MOH recipient. Honestly I couldn’t tell the difference among Lt’s, was in two units with very high number of West Pointers, 3rd ACR in US and 11th ACR in Vietnam. Was in Army 3 years, 1 as enlisted, couldn’t tell the difference and it was something no one talked about.

[@damianbarramedajr7458]

when a mission is given, the west pointer 2lt turned to his nco, barked some orders, and took off to play golf; the rotc 2lt turned to his nco, hung around while the nco briefed the unit, and that's the only time the 2lt made sense of what the mission is; the ocs 2lt turned to his nco, "i'm leading. let's get this done quick because i have a golf tournament to catch".

[@the_bureaucrat]

Hilarious.

[@Dog.soldier1950]

@@damianbarramedajr7458 funny but total BS

[@damianbarramedajr7458]

@@Dog.soldier1950, lol! ncos rock!!

[@justinwatson1192]

Many NCOs do indeed rock. Some of them, though, have all the brains of a rock, just like some officers.

[@Nac626]

Dad was Army ROTC, mom was Army OCS, and I was USAFA. We all don't work for a living and tried to listen to our NCOs.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I bet that was a fun dinner table.

[@dannylo5875]

Cute. So how do I jump to the Air Force!?

[@Project_1868]

West Point Combat Arms by choice followed closely by OCS Combat Arms who were enlisted combat arms NCOs. I was enlisted for 23 years, thankfully most 2LTs willing to learn from me. 🇺🇸

[@Moto-foody]

As a 22 year 11B, you took the words right out of my mouth.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Didn't he though?

[@cidcampeador7922]

It’s funny you mention that, because I was enlisted in the NG for 5 years before I got my Officer’s Commission through ROTC and had a great time working with my junior enlisted and NCOs, but noticed my Co Cdr was eyeballing me too frequently. Some of the things he talked about during meetings I had no clue at all. Figuring out the Cdr’s intent two levels up and working towards meeting their intents was hard for me at the beginning. I felt incompetent and didn’t understand why if I was enlisted I was lacking on so much knowledge. I was depressed and felt as I was walking on eggshells on a daily basis. This got the best of me when one afternoon I was exhausted in an FTX and had a negligent discharge (it was with blank ammo but still) and ended up getting relieved as a PLDR. Fortunately this happened in Korea and I knew I had another chance for redemption back in CONUS. I ended up successfully commanding two different HHCs after that.

[@the_bureaucrat]

You put the idea of commanders intent 2 levels up into excellent context.

[@DREMONEYSNIPER]

That’s a really good story to hear, I feel it’s hard for me to relate to the people who are natural leaders and I can resonate with more with the people who had stories of them not being the best in the beginning later on to excelling on in their career. I’m currently enlisted and while I don’t think I’m a bad soldier. I have my days where I feel like I’m incompetent or I’m a failure , so to hear you share that story and later on moving on to better things gives me hope.

[@dukedumby]

Hey Sir, just stumbled upon your channel and wanted to say this video was northing short of awesome! In BCT (2012) we had 2 ROTC as Battery Commander and XO but in AIT a really great pair of mustangs (one was an e-8 and got waivered in for age just for the pension, the guy provided a really unique and great atittude having been not just an NCO but a damn senior NCO who was suddenly an 0-2 (when we met) and 0-3 within the same year). The academy people also range from bad to great, same everybody else. Thanks for not generalizing and I can't wait for the 30-second video about warrant officers.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Thanks...Now that you mention it...I could probably rile up a whole bunch of folks with a few well placed Warrant Officer comments.

[@impacking]

Every warrant officer I’ve ever met was a baddass muthafucka who you didn’t want to get on the bad side of.

[@kdubyaw3246]

Every West Pointer 2nd Lt I served with in my 20 years was humble and eager to learn. They wanted to succeed and knew they couldn't by being a know-it-all.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Every? What time period was that?

[@kdubyaw3246]

@@the_bureaucrat 79-99, ROTC was hit or miss, and most OCS were prior service and squared away.

[@dougbyrd1970]

Nice video. I was a mixed product. I attended ROTC for a year in college then enlisted and attended the West Point Prep School for a year before graduating from West Point 4 years later. However, don't forget that all West Pointers spend a month embedded into real army units and we received training support from active Army personnel at West Point so it's not like cadets have only been exposed to other cadets. My regret is that we weren't exposed enough to how the real army operates with all the warts and chaos that is entailed with that. West Point is a pretty well-oiled machine and we should have been trained not to expect that after graduation and we should have been trained more with how to deal those situations before we graduated.

[@the_bureaucrat]

You're about as mixed as someone can get! Good point about the contrast between the well oiled machine and warts and chaos. I was ROTC and never performed well in training settings where everything was supposed to go clickity-click. But in wildly bizarre open ended situations, I did better than my peers.

[@PapasDino]

Great question...I was the product of ROTC in the mid 70's and found over my 26 years on active duty that for the most part after about 5 years that cohort of officers looked much more alike than they did when first commissioned as they'd grown together and (hopefully) overcame those weaknesses. BTW, when I was a Infantry 2LT colonels looked older than dirt; now they look like babies! ;-)

[@the_bureaucrat]

You are spot on with the idea that mid-grade O3's don't have nearly the variation as first year 2LTs. And as far as "baby COL's"...you know its time to retire when you start thinking sergeant majors look young.

[@rickcrawford9939]

I have worked for all three. By far Mustangs and OCS were the best JOs.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I can believe it.

[@CalebKennizzite]

Excellent video! I am also an ROTC grad, and the insights shared here match my own personal experiences. But perhaps most importantly is your wise conclusion…which I agree with wholeheartedly!

[@the_bureaucrat]

Thanks...best of luck in your journey.

[@sagedotmuzik]

Have to say that I totally agree with your assessment at the end. I think all of the different types tend to balance each other out and help each other grow.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Thanks.

[@3cap97]

Interesting topic & discussion. Just for the sake of conversation, I came through US Navy Aviation Officer Candidate School (AOCS) in 1978. We "candidates" who were striking for pilot / NFO / Aviation Maintenance officer. Not precise, I think we started with 60 - 65 guys and graduated 30-31. If we had any prior enlisted --- there may have been ONE -- but my fuzzy memory indicates NONE. Yes things are very different nowadays. You appear much younger than I am. and your video referenced Army not Navy. However you seemed to indicate that Army OCS was exclusively prior enlisted. I received my commission and ended up with with the wings of a "Naval Aviator (a.k.a. pilot), served nine years active and 16 Navy Reserve, retired as O-6 also having been a Commanding Officer. Along the way and until today, I had / have friends and acquaintances from all three commissioning sources. With that stage having been set....and for those who are still reading.... I agree with your conclusion... the "mix" of the three commissioning sources is a good thing.. ..and further I believe that it is critical to preserve and maintain all three sourcing methods.... in order to continue said mix!

[@the_bureaucrat]

You caught me...I made a slight mistake where I was talking about "OCS" as if it was 100% "Prior Service" and as if no prior service went thru ROTC or West Point. I kinda flubbed that one.

[@mr5timewcwchamp]

Prior Service NCO’s (E6-E8’s) are some of the best Officers I’ve met. OCS or Green to gold. Everything else I’ve seen is a mixed bag. Basically anyone who applied themselves, listened to good NCO’s and got mentors ended up being fine.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I hear that lately the Army isn't letting those older NCOs commission.

[@oldtop4682]

@@the_bureaucrat Haven't been for awhile - you might be able to get a commission as a WO, but even there they are selecting younger NCOs over that MSG who knows the job cold already.

[@Moto-foody]

You know how you can tell a West Pointer from other officers? You don’t have to, they’ll keep telling over and over and over and over. Personally I don’t care about their pedigree, I prefer junior officers who I are willing to learn from their NCO’s and more experienced officers.

[@marianotorrespico2975]

--- AH, YES! THE RING-TAPPER . . . who wears cologne and stands with his hands in his pockets, whilst telling you about the hardships of combat training in the woods without a butler; ALMOST like the infantry school at Benning, he says. Really, sir. To the enlisted soldier, that coded language means: "set-up my tent with a plywood floor and a hot stove BEFORE I arrive at the A.O. and standby to standby" for action.

[@BrianKern2121]

Marine here, we called the Naval Academy officers "Ring Knockers" they would always be knocking their Academy rings on everything all the time.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I think this suggests an option for the West Pointer who wants to do well...don't wear the ring and say "I went to a school in New York".

[@marianotorrespico2975]

@@the_bureaucrat --- YES and NO . . . but, unfortunately, bragging rights are part of the appeal of the academy.

[@Dog.soldier1950]

@@Moto-foody not a Marine option Boat U thing

[@ThePolareyes53]

The best officer I ever worked for was ROTC. You always knew he was the commander because of his leadership. I also worked for a couple of Mustangs that were good officers.

[@the_bureaucrat]

That's good to hear.

[@johndotter351]

I met all 3 types of 2LTs from those commissioning programs but found that usiually prior enlisted who got their commissioned either through ROTC, or OCS, were the best.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I feel bad that I didn't mention the PS ROTC 2LTs...they are something special.

[@cgross82]

Well said! As a National Guard OCS graduate myself who spent enlisted time on active duty, I have seen lieutenants from all three sources. The National Guard tends to depend mostly upon OCS commissions, but we also had ROTC graduates and the occasional West Point graduate who joined the Guard after active duty. No commissioning source is superior to the others, and they do have different strengths.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Just between you and me (I was Army Reserve), I always found it strange when I ran into a West Pointer in a Reserve Component....their stories of how they got there were always complex.

[@arthurbrumagem3844]

I spent 23 yrs in the army and most of my officers said it was” sergeants business “ . They let us run the show quite often

[@the_bureaucrat]

That works well as long as they take care of "officer business".

[@arthurbrumagem3844]

@@the_bureaucrat all about teamwork 😉

[@MDavidW100]

Pretty much nailed this one Chuck. I remember an article I read written by an OCS grad 20 years ago that pretty much said the same thing.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I'm a bit suspicious that this is one of those ancient truths...that even in the Waring States Period, armies lived with the differences between high born & well educated young officers and dusty, seasoned officers. And came to the same conclusion that together they make a strong force.

[@oldtop4682]

The advantage of West Point grads has declined a lot over the years. I remember my father calling me in '82 when Reagan appointed Vessey Chairman. He was ecstatic - "Finally, someone who isn't a ring knocker!". Dad was an OCS guy. One thing Vessey did was win the hearts of NCOs. Asked what was his toughest job, he responded "1SG in WWII". Hellz YEAH! Do the West Point grads still commission one day before ROTC? It used to be like that. I served with all three types you show, but there's another group - The Citadel, VMI and A&M types. Yeah, kinda covered in ROTC, but these programs are pretty special. I had great experiences with these guys as well. It does take a variety, and generally the Army does a good job of weeding out the non-performers - or finding another field more suited to them/functional area. Last thing - AT LAST I find that I am not the only one with hair that just won't stay down! I can wax it, mouse it, whatever it, and there's always a few recalcitrant hairs.....

[@the_bureaucrat]

Jesus, the hair! And the beret didn't help. When we switched to the beret my hair went crazy. I had to keep a high and tight just so that it didn't move. These days people comment on it and it's like "what am I gonna do? Care?"

[@MathiasYmagnus]

I have never been privileged to sit in on a ln officer evaluation debriefing. However, I have been told that there is a bias towards academy graduates. Same thing with the 900 DIV boot camp.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I'm not sure how far that bias really extends. Certainly by the time we are doing promotion boards on field grades, it has no perceptible effect.

[@Dog.soldier1950]

in my experience Naval Academy were equal to the Citadel officers with NROTC very close behind and were all absolutely the gold standard. They all come in with several years of additional training and experience which allows them to be up to speed quickly in the FMF. Never ran across a VMI graduate. Of course OCS is very uneven. Many many prior enlisted with combat experience in my early years.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Your point about OCS being uneven is counter to what some other folks have said...but then you bring in the idea of combat experience...I wonder if there has been variation in these patterns over time?

[@Dog.soldier1950]

@@the_bureaucrat I served 1972-2003. That was my experience

[@Dog.soldier1950]

@@the_bureaucrat having been a OCS graduate you have a wide variety of experiences. Combat and prior service vets but a good share of College grads looking to be Marines but with very little to no prior experience. Once you get to the Fleet it takes time to come up to speed and that prior experience helps a great deal. Overall the Marines expect perfection

[@DeltaEcho256]

I have experience with both ROTC and OCS. I was a prior enlisted Regular Army soldier with a college degree who went non-scholarship Green to Gold and entered ROTC as an MSIII cadet/graduate student. I had a GA assistantship from my school that paid my tuition, fees, books, stipend, etc. I also served in the ARNG during grad school and got some benefits through that. After one year though, it was clear that graduate school requirements did not jive well with my ROTC schedule. Advanced Camp conflicted with graduate program internship requirements, classes conflicted, etc. So I voluntarily left the ROTC program after one year and applied for OCS upon completing my Masters degree. OCS was much more difficult but much more condensed and focused. I had nothing else to worry about except the challenge of completing OCS. It certainly felt more serious than ROTC in a sense. So I commissioned as a "mustang" 2LT out of OCS. That prior enlisted experience and my age of 30 certainly helped me and gave me a certain level of respect as a new 2LT. All that being said, my wife, who was traditional non-prior service earned her commission through that same ROTC program and she was an outstanding junior officer. Better than me if I'm being honest!

[@the_bureaucrat]

Awesome. I'm glad you found a path thru to get in.

[@majorhicksusmc]

I am a Marine, I joined when I was 17 in 1966. Spent 13 months with Delta Company 1st Bn 3rd Marines in Vietnam as a machine gunner. The company had two NROTC officers (The Company Commander and out 1st Platoon Commander), but the XO, 2nd and 3rd platoon commanders were prior Staff NCOs who received direct commissions because of the shortage of infantry officers. They were all great officers. And, they all believed officers need to lead from the front, first in last out. I was a E-5 Sargent when I received a direct commission. I served as a platoon commander in a rifle company that had a West Point graduate as its company commander. He had spent 5 years in the army, then made a lateral transfer to the Marines as an Infantry Officer. He was one of the best officer I ever served under. Great leadership, tactically sound, an expert with supporting arms use and employment. I learned more from him than any other officer I ever served under. Personally, I think it’s more about the individual than how they obtained their commission. I’ve seen great 2nd Lieutenants when I was enlisted and lousy NCOs, and great NCOs and lousy officers, but it was not because of their rank that they were lousy.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I think you are 100% correct about the individual.

[@bobanderson6656]

I fail to see the need for the service academies. The cost of producing officers that way is absurdly expensive. In the long run, do they perform any better?

[@l4c390]

I've gone back and forth on this over the years (FWIW I live next to one of the academies), but I think you can't just look at their contributions in the uniformed military. Many leave the service and go on to contribute to the nation via serving in other parts of government.

[@roadhouse6999]

I was an ROTC LT. I had a lot of friends from West Point who were very high performers and brought a lot to the group in IBOLC.

[@bobanderson6656]

@l4c390 a lot of capable people from many colleges end up in the govt....

[@bobanderson6656]

@@roadhouse6999 High performers come from many colleges and universities.

[@l4c390]

@@bobanderson6656 Probably not as high a percentage though.

[@jasongriffin1127]

I’ve seen good and bad from all pipelines, I would offer it based off the individual, and there’s also a lot of other variables.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I think you're right about the individual and when it comes to those other variables, they are variables in the individual.

[@rickdunn3883]

USNA BGO and former Navy Officer here: Not sure about the Army, however, in the Navy we generally see that USNA grads have an advantage for the first couple years O1-O2. Probably due to being immersed in the Navy 24x7x365. However, the ROTC, OCS and other commissioning sources can Catch up quickly. Not every USNA or USMA grad are top performers. Once commissioned for a few years it's all about performance.

[@David-nx2vm]

Well said. Reminds me of the old saying “you can get by on your looks for about 15 minutes. After that, you have to actually know something.”

[@the_bureaucrat]

Love it!

[@GentlemanJack295]

This was well done.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I had help from a couple friends.

[@johnferguson7738]

Love your videos, but was curious about your take on military college LTs like from VMI, Citadel, etc.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Number one, VMI produced George Marshall and if they never do another good thing, that alone will be enough for me. Number two, As a junior officer, the military college folks seemed strange to me...they were in the ROTC camps, but they were not like other ROTC cadets. Number three, once commissioned, they seemed to be committed to the job more deeply than "college boys", but less rigid than West Pointers. The only downside I experienced (and this was late 1990's...so take it with a grain of salt) was that the military colleges seemed to allow slightly more hazing and pranking than West Point. It's probably no longer an issue, but at the time, you could count on a brand new Norwich grad acting slightly immature.

[@larryspiller6633]

I have served with all of them. Personal opinion here, the West Point guys seemed to have it together from the day they showed up. That is not to disparage the others. In fact I can only remember 2 shit bird officers on active duty and one in the reserves for a total of 3. One of them was a Warrant. There are more subpar Soldiers lurking about than Officers if you ask me, no matter how they got commissioned.

[@the_bureaucrat]

You're probably on to something. I'm starting to think that there is a "leadership pipeline" that people pass thru and the different commissioning sources have different timelines. The prior service guys are more likely to have made a commitment to the military (for them being a 2LT is a continuation, not a beginning of service). The West Pointers have "gotten their head in the game" even if they might not fully understand the game yet. ROTC varies depending on the university and the type of scholarship they were on.

[@larryspiller6633]

@@the_bureaucrat Mirrored my thoughts!

[@danielmcneely1579]

I have had good ones from all 3, and shitty ones from all three. I will say that OCS graduates, or prior service guys who got out and went to college tended to freak out less.

[@the_bureaucrat]

That point about "freaking out less" shows up even in Field Grades. They can't even fake being worried.

[@txdino6063]

IMHO and experience. An aspect that separates the three groups is their willingness to be ‘assholes’ to or ‘push’ or “lead” the enlisted to get a task or mission accomplished. There is a good middle ground which the West Pointers tend to be on one side of while the OCS grads are on the other and the ROTC seems to start in the middle. The good ones find that balance, the bad ones never do.

[@the_bureaucrat]

That's an excellent point. Not "how much does the 2LT understand the enlisted", but "how much are they willing to drive the enlisted".

[@dcstrng1]

The very best combat (actual) officer I ever served under was a direct/field commission 2LT; yep, they're rare and may not always have all the theoretical training of their more traditional colleagues; but at least in my very limited experience, what they know, they know from actual experience -- someone shooting at them and their troops.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I think that you highlight an important part of this discussion...where the service is happening.

[@Aethelgeat]

My father was a master sergeant. One brother went academy, the other enlisted, got out, earned a degree, went back in through OCS. He had some fun stories about the difference between the mavericks and those without any military sort of background. He understood that when the officer said something, how it might be perceived differently by enlisted and NCOs. Both brothers understood the value of listening to NCOs and managing through them.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Sounds like a good history of family service.

[@JayGaddam-mf1vc]

I enlisted in the guard as a 19D and made it to the rank of specialist before going into ROTC and doing the SMP program. I am going to commission and stay in the ARNG at the end of this academic year. Humility is something that CDTs need as they go into the force. Being a prior, I feel that I understand the junior enlisted and I have seen good and bad leaders throughout my time in the guard. I've taken the good and worked to apply it in my leadership rotations during my time in the ROTC program. Hopefully that prior enlisted experience will help. I am looking to commission in IN, FA, or AR. Wish me luck!

[@the_bureaucrat]

Good luck! I know everyone wants you to succeed (especially your future Soldiers).

[@michaelperry7871]

Great assessment.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Thanks

[@LegoDude2004]

WOW, this video is making me reflect something harsh! I was enlisted 5 years and then became a boot in the USMC. I can tell you that your observations also apply to the Marine Corps. There are some significant cultural differences from Army to the Corps but you are mostly spot on. YES, as I got closer to retirement I found myself more willing to tell certain officers and senior enlisted my "strong personal opinions" more freely than my NROTC and academy grads. And being self critical, I think at every level I treated my unit as "my boys" and they loved me for it but perhaps that was NOT was needed.

[@the_bureaucrat]

It seems like you lived up to the expectations of the Corps.

[@cptkiddokidd5137]

OCS grad here. As an EM, some of my best LTs and some of my worst LTs were West Point grads. Some of the best and some of the worst were ROTC grads. Some of the best and some of the worst were OCS grads. When I was a Company Commander . . . . it was the same.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Therein lies the truth. No commissioning source prevents bad officers and none guarantees a good one.

[@brett76544]

I can remember speaking at an SRBC meeting Susquehanna River Basin Commission, and an LTC was there that I trained as a 2nd LT and as a 1st LT in an engineer line platoon and later as an assault and battery or mobility and counter mobility platoon leader. Then had him as a Company commander a few years later. I started speaking and he asked a question, and I said LT and he just smiled.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Happy memories...

[@wolson9]

I had been in the Army a couple of years before selected to West Point. Your conclusion is correct: there is no one path to the best 2LT. Because of my previous service I could and did retire as a Major. For the first year after becoming a 2LT I tried to play the role pretty much by the book and got good OER's. Later, I took a few risks along the way as would an OCS'er, too, but succeeded. Was I the best 2LT? Not by a long shot. Even with prior experience and West Point, there was a lot to learn. In some cases I acted like an NCO rather than as a 2LT because I wasn't happy with the NCO I had. I was probably assigned that NCO because I did have prior experience and could compensate. (This was immediate post Vietnam where we had "shake and bake" NCO's that never learned their jobs.) I didn't think that was good and I don't think I learned all what I was suppose to learn at that point. But, when I did get a good NCO, I was able to pull back and let him do the job. My job was then much easier as well he was able to give guide me in the right directions. I think the chemistry a 2LT has with the Platoon Sergeant is the most important factor in whether or not a 2LT will be a good 2LT. As a Captain, I began to think, "What the hell was I doing?" Some of my classmates overtly stated they were trying to be come Generals which I thought was absurd. They were the "ticket punchers" who I felt were going through the positions but not really learning to do their jobs well. I felt yearlong tours in the jobs made you familiar with doing the tasks but you certainly weren't masters of them. So I decided to do something different. I ask for and was denied at least twice for a job way off the "ticket" that I felt would be my best contribution to the Army. My Branch Officer was not pleased. Finally, on the third request, I got the job and did very well in it. I undertook some very high level responsibilities not usually granted to a Captain and then, Major. It became a four year position. My boss, a Civilian, tried to make it longer but the Army would not let that happen. But I was so far off the ticket that I became unpromotable especially when ticket punching promotion board members tried to compare my performance with this of my peers on the ticket. Retirement was my only option. So eventually, the risks will catch up you.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Those Captains who say they are trying to become Generals always boggle me. I mean, the selection rate from COL to GO is really narrow (never mind selection to COL). And there's not a heck of a lot a CPT can do to influence his COL board or his odds for GO. I always thought a stronger position for a CPT was "I am going to be the best LTC I can be"...do that and the rest will take care of itself.

[@wolson9]

@@the_bureaucrat I basically agree. The mission for a good CPT should be to be a good MAJ if he gets promoted and to look forward to being an LTC. Most majors are in staff positions and this can be a challenge to a CPT. If a CPT, is not in a CO positions, he should seek a BN Staff position. Thus when and if he does get to LTC and gets a battalion, he will have a chance to succeed. While there is plenty of information regarding the pyramid getting into senior officer ranks, I don't feel most officers realistically understand it. They also fail to consider "What am I going to do with the remainder of my life after I leave the Army?" It is highly likely for most officers that they will no longer be in the Army once they reach the age of 45. That is at least 20 working years, about the same time, that a retiree will have been in the Army. Advance education is a necessity: unless you plan to be a college professor, it really doesn't matter how you get it. (If you do plan to be a professor, it matters where you got that education to meet the selection panel reviews looking for specific skills.) You can not expect to go into an entry level position any profession. You therefore have to get the education needed for a mid level position. I was very fortunate to be able to get both a Masters degree and a Ph. D. part time while in the Army. Thus on retiring, I went out with several different job offers. The Army career is a benefit IF you can support it with a foundation. You have learned leadership skills that many corporations need. You have very good people skills. But you need the formal education to go with those skills.

[@soongone99]

All depends on the individual. I have known great young LTs straight out of the academy, prior enlisted from OCS that couldn’t pour piss out of a boot, and everything in between…

[@the_bureaucrat]

Here here. Its about the individual!

[@feltwedge]

Great points.

[@the_bureaucrat]

It is a great discussion.

[@marksmusicplace3627]

as a retired Senior NCO SFC. I have work at the squad, section, platoon, company, battalion and brigade level, I really don't like many west point officers. I delt with officers ranging from the LT platoon leader, all the way to working with the brigade commander. One example would be, I was the S2 NCOIC 101 CAB, 101st ABN Div working for LTG Richardson (ret) his wife is General Laura RIchardson. This was when LTG Richardson , then Col Richardson who was the brigade commander at 101st Aviation Brigade in 2008. I was working in the BDE S2 . He was approchable and easy to work for. LTG richarson was prior enlisted. Same with other officers that were either prior enlisted or ROTC officers. Easy peasy, great NCO and officer relationship in getting missions done . The west point officers were the ones I always had issues with. They have the mentality they don't have to listen to experienced NCOs or they are better than enlisted. My comment will grow into a 500 page novel about my distain with most west pointers, but I digress.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I think you really put your finger on an important point...the NCO/Officer relationship. There can be a lot of versions, but bottom line...a healthy relationship is key.

[@ralphmarkasher]

I was ROTC and had West Point and OCS officers either in my classes or units. There were good and bad COs. I had some really bad West Point ones and also some great ROTC ones that made stars.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I think the thing you capture here is that if you spend enough time dealing with enough folks, you will see the full spectrum of humanity.

[@donlowry6469]

Best one I ever knew was my XO who was an e4 who kept getting battlefield promotions and by the end of his 3rd tour was a lieutenant which was later made official.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I didn't realize how prevalent this was in Vietnam.

[@donlowry6469]

@the_bureaucrat I don't think it was, really. He was a survivor, and after two battles, he was senior at the end. I think it messed him up, survivor's guilt. He joined the NG when he came back and made 1st lieutenant, and when the Iran hostage crisis began, he transferred to an Army reserve unit that was being activated.

[@armorman55]

It’s actually super secret option D; those with field promotions. The rare few who crawl above the others because they’re special

[@the_bureaucrat]

You're right.

[@wcatholic1]

I was a 16S from 1983-1986. In garrison we were (almost) always done by 17:00. In the ROK when an IG was coming up we worked a month straight except for Sundays.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Ain't that the truth?

[@dereklucero5785]

I’ve got a story. I was in the 3rd ACR in the late 1990’s. This bronze star Iraqi vet E-7 decided 1 day eff it, I’m going to OCS. A few months later he shows back up to report back for transfer (I was the NCOIC taking in new guys) . 2LT (can’t remember his name) with 3 rows of ribbons, a bronze star, a CIB, etc, etc, etc, next to 2LT Joe West Point with his marksmanship badge.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Two entirely different people. 🤣

[@blchamblisscscp8476]

Are you considering senior military academies as ROTC or what? Texas A&M, The Citadel, And (not sure of the name) North Georgia are senior military schools equivalent to West Point. North Georgia particularly graduates cadets already parachute qualified.

[@the_bureaucrat]

For this discussion I lumped the senior military academies into ROTC because that's the program they are actually commissioning under. One of the trickier things about getting info on those schools is that the Army doesn't report them separate to Congress.

[@willbryant8602]

Friend of mine was an Artillery Officer from ROTC out of Vanderbilt, made the observation that West Pointers were most likely to become General Officers, and ROTC Officers made the best staff officers. From my experience as an NCO in the VaARNG (Inf) I saw a lot of VMI officers and Mustangs, I preferred working with the Mustangs. VMI cadets in the Unit developed that cadet superiority thing even when they were junior EMs if they were upperclass at VMI , a real pain in the ass for junior NCOs to deal with. Only West Pointer ever assigned to my unit was relieved for cause. WB SSG 116th Inf 89 to 98

[@the_bureaucrat]

I think there's good reason why NCO's would prefer Mustangs. Just the common base of reference would be valuable.

[@Mn-yh2bp]

Would lieutenants that come from nonofficial military schools for example, Virginia military Institute or The Citadel have the same pros and cons as an ROTC graduate or West Point graduate? I think I’ve heard some comments about sidle graduates that make them sound more like Mustangs.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Technically VMI and The Citadel graduates are part of the ROTC program, but that contributes to the wide variability of ROTC 2LTs. I would say there is something unique about a VMI-type grad in that there was no incentive to live the military cadet life. West Pointer get "free" education, so there's an incentive to go and stay. But a VMI-Guy is paying for the cadet experience just like he would be if he went to Virginia Tech. It suggests something different in their character.

[@ricksher1320]

What's the difference between a 2lt and a PFC? The PFC has been promoted twice. In seriousness though, the OCS 2LT has the initial advantage over the WP or ROTC 2LT. The OCS LT has knowledge about how the Army really works already. As they move up through the chain though the WP followed by the ROTC officer wins out because of their network of fellow senior officers.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I like your point about the network of SENIOR OFFICERs.

[@jddrafts]

Two of the better officers I had were ocs officers. Knew a guy that was an e4 and when he went to college became a cadet but still drilled with us. Not sure how that worked. Had good experiences with non prior service officers but I don’t recall if any of them were West Pointers.

[@the_bureaucrat]

He might have been Simultaneous Membership Program. I think that mix of PS, College, and Drilling makes one hell of a well prepared officer.

[@71qban]

Greetings Sir, would you add "Direct Commission" junior officers to this group?

[@the_bureaucrat]

I tend to leave them out just because their jobs tend to put them in unique situations to begin with.

[@schizoidboy]

Off topic I remember hearing how during the Battle of Ramadi the Marine Corps Reservists were best at working with the civilian population because they were reservists who were civilians when they weren't deployed. In either case the ability to communicate and be understood is of great importance especially while being in charge of any group.

[@the_bureaucrat]

You are putting your finger on the key point in the broadest sense. People who understand the people they are communicating with will always have an advantage.

[@francisebbecke2727]

I didn't have any trouble figuring out who was in charge, the first sergeant.

[@the_bureaucrat]

You make me smile....you know you should avoid telling people what's really going on, right?

[@MW-jj1rn]

Each of the produce officers. I served under all three and know mustangs. I’d say one factor is the character of the person. These institutions have an enormous influence on how these officers will enter into service and how they will lead and command. Good conversations…

[@the_bureaucrat]

Thanks. I like your point about "HOW" the officers enter into service. The timing and expectations.

[@lelandgaunt9985]

The one that get to play ultimate frisbee/football everyday.😂

[@the_bureaucrat]

See? The day I let the company play dodge ball, I had half a dozen old NCOs with twisted knees. 🤣

[@rrl4245]

Agree with your evaluation. West Pointers also have little in common with the average private they command. No concept of life in the hood, on the block, or of civilian teen-agers. They've been isolated at the Point during their early adult years. ROTC officers grew up on some university campus, and were probably back on the block, at least during summers. Also, many ROTC officers expect to become part-timers - Reservists or National Guardsmen. They plan to have other, full time careers outside the military, so there's a certain lack of motivation, amongst them. I too was a ROTC officer, but I earned an RA commission, as I expected to make a career of the Army. Although I gave up on that idea when I wound up a Captain in a staff slot, and the fun and adventure ended.

[@the_bureaucrat]

That's a really important idea...ROTC graduates are much more likely to be clawing their way out of some lower socio-economic situation. And even if the West Pointer is too, he's been insulated for 4 years and exposed to many people who aren't from such a background.

[@steveshapland8846]

One of my best officers was 12 years as an EM.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I knew LTC who had been an E7...something special about that man. He's an O6 today if you can imagine.

[@highchamp1]

Anachronism (of a hierarchical social class structure) Captain and above Lt's for admin and specialist (skills and training roles). (...and probably better for it)

[@the_bureaucrat]

You're probably right.

[@ewok133]

It’s usually a good sign if I have to pry to find out where the Lt comes from

[@the_bureaucrat]

That's is a funny insight. Even with General Officer Bios, that odd hesitancy to say where they came from tends to reflect a healthy degree of humility.

[@larryschweitzer4904]

Navy rotc here 1964. Served on a carrier during Vietnam. I knew officers from all 3 back grounds. There were good & poor from each. A friend who had graduated from canoe U. felt trapped compared to most of us who were headed into corporate America when our time came to get out. The low pay back then didn't encourage the best Jr officers to stay in. My pay was $220/ month out of which my mess bill was $36. Right out of college I had job offers of the $700-900/ month. Some of the senior officers on the ship were "mustangs," enlisted that had received commissions. Among them were the best. With a couple of exceptions. Grueling months at sea also took their toll. Most of the NCOs were very good. New to the Navy there were quite a few that had been drafted or given the choice of military or jail by a judge. A fair # didn't adapt well to months at sea. Part of my job was to sort and pack the belongings after suicides. Wives and girl friends didn't help with the dear John letters. Most unforgettable experience: going through Nuclear, Biological and Chemical warfare school for officers. It was intensive and I learned about things I had no idea existed.

[@the_bureaucrat]

It's interesting the point you make about pay. I came in just after the 90's RIF and there was a strange effect where the folks who stayed seemed to be ones who had less opportunity on the outside.

[@jimpage6533]

When I went through OCS " The Infantry School" at Ft Benning from Aug '67 through 17 Feb '67 the 92nd Co.OCS it was 6 months of 24-7. We spit shined everything even our floors and hall ways. We all were enlisted swine who had already been through Basic and AIT, some were even senior NCOs, with one or more tours in the Nam. We had already played the training game and knew our way around the real sysrem.

[@the_bureaucrat]

"the Training Game" 😎

[@David-nx2vm]

I commissioned through Air Force OTS in the ‘80s during the Reagan buildup. About half of my class was prior enlisted including me. It was made very clear to us prior enlisted throughout our training that we were not “union stewards” for our troops. You have a perspective that academy grads don’t have, but you have to strike a balance. Also, I encountered only a few clock-watchers in my time, but the system is self-cleansing - those types don’t last long.

[@the_bureaucrat]

That point about the system being "self-cleaning" is apt. I think that part of the reason for the variation caused by commissioning sources is that the individuals are at different stages in the "self cleaning" process. Poor quality OCS candidates probably never even applied for the program. Maybe a bit of that with West Point and folks who failed to adapt to that environment didn't graduate. ROTC makes it easier for someone who shouldn't be an officer to at least pin on the rank.

[@twostep1953]

(Texas A&M '76) I had the best of both worlds in the Corps of Cadets at A&M. We lived a life of full-time Corps, but were surrounded by civilian students ("non-regs") and didn't wear our uniforms off-campus when not at school events. I know the Citadel (South Carolina) and I think V.M.I. (Virginia) always wear their uniforms. All three are R.O.T.C. and are still better than the academies at mimicking life on military bases; which have far more civilians than people realize. The base is run by government employees; the military are just visitors, and most of the military personnel have family. The speaker is correct; West Pointers, etc., usually expect to make the military a career, and the mission of the R.O.T.C. is to create a reserve of junior officers in case of war. Each has its mission. But the lowest ranking private in your platoon knows more about the Army than a new 2LT platoon leader. I think ALL officers should be prior-enlisted and go through Officer Candidate School (O.C.S.) - and during war-time all new 2LT's should be combat veterans promoted to officer. If a private goes up a hill one time to capture it, a squad-leader going back and forth among his men covers enough ground to go up it twice, and the platoon leader four times. Having the least experienced man in the platoon expose himself to enemy fire four times as much as a private is the reason new 2nd Lieutenants have a life expectancy of 30 days.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Two really good point here. First, I never noticed how some of the Corps of Cadets mirror normal military base life. Second...I doubt you could sell the idea of a "combat" course for 2LTs during peace time. But during a real shooting war, that might be a huge benefit.

[@RedStickHistorian]

I graduated from Navy OCS and felt the Academy guys had an advantage due to being exposed to the Navy for four years (including summer cruises) before arriving onboard. The ROTC guys also had an advantage due to summer cruises but not to the same extent as the Naval Academy guys. As OCS with no prior enlisted experience, it was all a shock to me and I took some time to get my footing. My ship's Captain did not believe in allowing time to come up to speed, so it was tough. By the way, it is the Chiefs and Petty Officers that really run the ship.

[@the_bureaucrat]

That is fascinating how the OCS route can leave you underexperienced. I figured it was always the Chief & Petty Officers...

[@jackleg2007]

I always wondered what the final cost in is creating them each way.

[@the_bureaucrat]

OCS is dirt cheap. ROTC middle of the road. West Point...astronomical...so expensive that no one wants to talk about it and when you force them to, they really try to avoid discussing "cost per student". They prefer a more wholistic view of what the entire body of cadets provides the military.

[@jameshill113]

😅 I researched this issue at Naval Post Graduate School looking at USMC fitness report data. For lieutenants, it was clear that rankings were: 1-OCS 2-ROTC 3-Academy. For Capt-Maj: it was 1-OCS 2-Academy 3-ROTC. For Lt-Col it was 1-Academy 2-ROTC 3-OCS. So, our best senior officers were Academy men and our best junior officers are OCS (includes prior enlisted)

[@the_bureaucrat]

Interesting!

[@philip48230]

1971 I asked a West Point instructor about my thinking of applying to West Point. His response was not to waste my time going to West Point. In a Conscription, soon to become Volunteer Army, I’d relate better and lead better. Medical kicked me out. Since, I’ve worked with many persons who were enlisted than commissioned either ROTC-OCS exhibited more common sense and had clearer visions of how to accomplish the mission. I’ll take “mustangs” any day.

[@the_bureaucrat]

That is a great insight. In a conscription Army, the gap between the West Pointers and the draftees is much larger. It's big in today's Army, but just the idea of "do you want to be here"...a West Pointer would say "yes" while most of his troops would say "no".

[@hawkeyeriza9941]

These are some very good points you made. In my country there is also 3 ways to become officer Military Academy ( Long Course ) , Military Academy ( Short Course ) And Jewel Commission for enlisted men. And as a long course officer my first few days was also the same like west point 2LT I use to feel like I don't get the respect that my men should show me as an officer and I keep asking myself if it is because of my sex. Then my CO told me It has nothing to do with gender role and being a female in a male dominated field 2LT are suppose to be staff officers in a company because the are there to learn how a company operate. And by the time I become a LT lots have change and I gain a huge respect for the NCOs as they has huge hands on experience which we lack. But 3 years of officer school teach us how to use that experience

[@the_bureaucrat]

I'm glad someone helped you thru that experience. Lots of folks in the minority of any group overlook the fact that even the majority members get knocked around quite a bit. And I like the idea that "2LT is a staff officer"...we might put them in "leadership" positions, but it is really just a training role.

[@ranchhandrandy3213]

The best LT is one who was at least corporal (or specialist) prior. So I'm going with OCS.

[@the_bureaucrat]

You guys know I'm a Pentagon rat, but even at that level (when they were MAJs or LTCs), there was a strange positive quality about a Mustang. Can't quite put my finger on it...it's not that they were particularly "good" at their jobs, but they had this strange sense of responsibility. As if the reputation that Mustangs are superior officers pushed them to BE better officers. And their concern for the troops showed up even when writing reports to Congress.

[@1caseyk]

Outstanding. I could never be that even-handed. My commission source was OCS, and although I went into the one year ng military academy as an E-5, I was indeed younger than my OCS peers (20-21) who were, many of them, Vietnam veterans. Here is my take on comparisons of the three commission sources, and I will be fair but not as even-handed as the good host. The hundreds of West Pointers who I served with, when they were freshly minted 2LTs, had limited to no understanding of the army itself, but instead acted like a class of cadets, or as an academic class. Information flowed to the class, and not really to the outside army where they were now serving. You did a great job describing that fault. Were they smart? Indeed many were, but then again some very boneheaded thinking also came from their group. Among the very smartest I will say those men were remarkable (one was headed to medical school; another was the army's soldier of the year in his prior enlisted service). When you had a few acting stupid, it was a surprising and disappointing remark about the USMA system. ROTC produced some interestingly non-military types. Agreed that they were isolated socially from the pack. Your report is very good! OTOH, if an ROTC graduate is talented, he (nowadays also she) is an estimable officer and worthy of respect. Once they become military, their careers and service can shine as much as anyones. OCS. Of course I'll say good things. Better standard of proficiency. An OCS grad will go into his/her unit well ahead of the curve for his military job. This saves an enormous amount of time for learning the job of being a company grade officer. Leadership is strong among OCS-sourced officers since they've already experienced EM, NCO and junior officer interactions for several years before receiving the commission. OK: two more types of officer sources. Those who receive a field commission. This is, in my estimate and some experience, the Gold Standard of good leadership. This Maverick is "born good". The other parsing of new officers is the guy commissioned from an academy that is not West Point, such as The Citadel or Texas A&M or VMI. These critters are noteworthy because possibly the greatest "officer's officer" ever was George Marshall, who was not a West Pointer. I subscribed.

[@the_bureaucrat]

George Marshall is my favorite officer of all time. I believe he may have been pivotal in preventing the real WW3.

[@1caseyk]

@@the_bureaucrat Yes; I never thought about it, but he'd be in my top 3 or 5 general officers in American history. He led the American part of the largest military endeavor of all time, and the largest officer corps.

[@rickybobby8224]

The problem (back when I was in) was that "they" allow very bad ROTC programs to survive. The worst officers were always from low ranking ROTC programs from schools you never heard of.

[@the_bureaucrat]

That is an interesting point. That low quality ROTC programs struggled to bring in any cadet they could, didn't do a great job of getting them ready, and then tossed them on the service.

[@Billy_the_Greek]

I served under three 2nd Lt's, one a West Pointer, the second ROTC cadet out of JMU, and the third a mustang. The best PL was the West Pointer, followed by the ROTC, and the worst was the mustang who was fired after getting a DUI.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Hmmm...was he arrogant?

[@markblue9476]

If you want to win a war, OCS in field, ROTC in Staffs Corps and RIng Knockers in command billets. Each to their own and leverage the strengths of each. Note: said as a Mustang myself.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Brilliant assessment.

[@vallettapetracyneran8587]

The most dangerous thing on the battlefield is a junior officer with a compass and a map.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I bet there are some ways for a junior officer to be even more dangerous.

[@JaneBuchanan-g8w]

That's for damn sure! I had a degree in Geography and wasn't worth a hoot with the Army's mapping system. West Pointers were overly impressed with themselves and could not relate with 18 year olds. ROTC in my time 52-55 years ago were a complete mixed bag. Some of the best and a few of the absolute worst...how they were ever commissioned I will never know.

[@markothwriter]

I got into West Point and was ready to go... then I failed the physical. I had to go to state school and go through ROTC. Even to get into ROTC I had to join the National Guard, and go to basic - but not AIT. It was the best thing that ever happened to me. I don't care about how it made me as a 2LT, a state college and ROTC made me into a better person and I benefit from a better group of friends. I have such a broad group of friends with different careers and different ideas - that I would have never met through West Point.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I think your journey captures an important issue about what leads to 2LT success. Filtering. Many lesser candidates would have quit if they were faced by your twists & turns. The fact that you overcame them was a huge validation that you were the "right" kind of person to become an Army leader.

[@DaveP326]

I was an E7 in a wartime army, and I've instructed in NCO schools. I've seen officers from all the officer programs, and GENERALLY speaking (because there are ALWAYS exceptions), OCS officers who had been NCOs were generally the most knowledgeable about military subjects. They were also the most comfortable with troop command because as NCOs, that was part of their job. I always taught my NCO candidates that if they want to command, they must command. They weren't the most highly educated academically, but they did know their role in the army structure. ROTC officers were what I call the frat boys. They generally treated the army as a corporation wher you began work at 0800 and went to the Officers' Club after 1600. Some were better than others, but even the best of them weren't as capable as the OCS "shake & bake" officers Now we get to the West Pointers-"the ring knockers". They liked to knock their WP rings on the bar to let everyone know they were there. The ring knockers are in a club. The command staff usually give the ring knockers preferential assignments because it was assumed that they would be "lifers", and certain assignments were necessary for advancement. There were excellent WP officers and some not-so-excellent officers, and it didn't take long for their subordinates in all ranks to decide if their platoon leader was a rising star, or a loser. To be honest, most of them were OK. Some had a longer learning curve, but they came around eventually. There were some who couldn't read a map and didn't want to admit it, but the men knew. I had served with our Batallion Commander in Vietnam when he was a lowly Lieutenant, so we got along. He would call for me to report to him, and he usually saidWe have 3 new LTs. Would you please check them out on their map reading skills. I did and those who couldn't find their way to the mess hall were re-trained until they could do it in their sleep. By the time our unit was sent out, everyone who had to know, did know how to read a map. If I had to rank them in order of competence, on Day 1, it was OCS, West Point, and ROTC. After I was finished with them they were all competent. THe one thing they all had trouble with was sticking up their heads to see what was going on in a firefight. Too many 2nd LTs were killed that way. If they lasted a month, they would probably survive.

[@the_bureaucrat]

I like the point you make about West Pointers getting preferential assignments because of the assumption that they are going to be "lifers". Sort of a conformational bias.

[@mikekimveteran]

Don't forget Senior Military College Graduates... Norwich, VMI, Citadel, North Georgia... And, two year Junior Military College grads (Valley Forge, New Mexico Military, etc. ) and SMP types. You covered the most common types. Thanks

[@the_bureaucrat]

At some point I have to come back and summarize all the great points that people have made. This issue of how ROTC commissions from places ranging from The Citadel to Berkley is worth noting.

[@sandovalperry2895]

There is another type of commission-the Direct Commission. I was direct commissioned because I had a skill and a license that the Army Nurse Corps needed. Because Directs have special skills we usually aren’t pushing troops. However, there are a fair number of Directs, like myself, who had prior enlisted service.

[@paulrodgers252]

that considered OCS : Officers Commission Selection; in the Military, as you know, will send you to School for your MOS;

[@sandovalperry2895]

@@paulrodgers252 it’s not OCS. Civilians can be directly commissioned up to the rank of O-6 for certain medical specialties. JAG and Chaplains can also be direct commissioned. These are civilians who have earned advance education before entering the military.

[@paulrodgers252]

@@sandovalperry2895civil military persons : civil i a ns : civil ians : civilians? or civil Indians : civil ians : civilians? they are call: civil by the United States Constitution Laws; if you want challenge my Words: I would highly suggest you read Constitution Amendment XIV Section 3 (ratified 9 July 1868) from ‘No to State’ which does establish an office for each side of the or;

[@the_bureaucrat]

I tend to think of the medical, JAG, and chaplains as special animals. We desperately need their skills, but the truth of the matter is that few rank and file folks get to see enough of these specialties to be able to tell the differences between the "good" and the "bad" ones.

[@sandovalperry2895]

@@the_bureaucrat just an aside, we use to wear white uniforms (actually cook’s whites) and white socks and shoes. A cadet on summer training was in the hospital and said that he didn’t know that the Army had cook officers. A little bit of education followed. 🙂

[@jon.p.]

Here, the Philippines, just the army Training: PMA receive complete issue on their first day. I didn't. OCS wasn't able to issue most of my gear I had to use my own shoes on first couple of weeks. While OPC, had the same problem with issue. Promotions: PMA, next is OCS. OPC get the bottom pick Casualty: PMA dies first and way too often. My OCS has thankfully never had KIA.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Fascinating.

[@mikethemechanic7395]

Worst officers I met were West Point. I got along with most officers. We shared the same upbringing. I went to private schools and lived upper middle class. I would hang out in the Suburbs off post. I always had West Point officers question me why I was in their neighborhood. I was on first name basis at my ASP with lots of officers. Every single West Point officer would loose their shit and yell at me. My first time in the field we had a West Point 2LT. He told us to pack up at day 26. It took us 10 hours to break things down and as the last pallet was going on the trailer. Battalion commander asked the 2LT why we were leaving. The 2LT made a mistake and was told we had 2 more days and to order us to unload and re set up the field. Our Platoon Sgt was told this. He refused. He told us to sleep on the ground. The 2LT starts to rip into the platoon sgt. Our platoon sgt was in Vietnam and had a silver star. No one messed with him. After 10 mins of yelling. Platoon sgt yells” I was in Vietnam mother F. We refuse to set up the field again.” Our 2 star shows up and rips into the 2Lt. He immediately leaves. We go back to the barracks and go to sleep. A week later the 2LT was transferred out of our unit. About 2 years later we got another West Point 2LT. Ranger etc. he made us go on a 25 mile road march. We were an Ordnance unit. He made us run on our days off. That guy was transferred out of our unit…

[@the_bureaucrat]

I think you raise an interesting point about the background of Soldiers and the background of their junior company grade officers. The more in concert they are, the more smoothly things go. The greater the disconnect...well there you go.

[@MrCadet08]

You missed the 4th category, the six senior military colleges and considering more VMI, Citadel, & Texas A&M contribute 2000 butter bars yearly, you made a big oversight

[@the_bureaucrat]

It's fair that I whitewashed the distinction between ROTC at Berkley vs. VMI, but the numbers are lower in the 2020's...total commissions coming out are closer to 200 per school and distributed across all services. So while it's an oversight worth addressing, it's probably a bigger issue for young folks considering a future.

[@wacojones8062]

I was a Cadet at the Citadel for a short period of time Failing German I withdrew ended up with 2 years active duty with a total of 27 years 7 months 14 days of federal service most as a SFC with a focus in how to teach recruits how to kill Russians. 19D4H and 11B4X. I knew a lot of officers a few made it to senior Commands I knew 2 who went from enlisted to Brigadier through OCS. I saw some very poor active-duty Captains and Majors who were a serious risk to the troops. One case a Ft. Knox resulted in 2 serious injuries due to lack of spare barrels for the Machineguns being used for the day and night live fire exercise. Open breech case detonations in M60 MG with one cartridge ending up in the throat of an active-duty sergeant the second 45 minutes later ended up in the arm of another active-duty sergeant arm. Fortunately, my reserve unit had multiple full-time paramedics on scene to deal with both cases preventing further harm to both individuals. We never had any feedback from the active side about the poor descensions by that officer involved.

[@the_bureaucrat]

Holy cow!