Which 40k Armies Are BEST in 10th Edition!? | Warhammer 40k Faction Tier List

#warhammer40k
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Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
01:24 Adeptus Mechanicus
02:14 Adepta Sororitas
03:42 Leagues of Votann
04:52 Adeptus Mechanicus
06:05 themagnetbaron.com
07:42 Grey Knights
08:56 Tyranids
09:31 T'au Empire
10:35 Drukhari
12:10 Orks
13:45 World Eaters
14:38 Chaos Daemons
16:16 Astra Militarum
17:32 Thousand Sons
18:46 Chaos Space Marines
20:02 Genstealer Cults
21:37 Adeptus Custodes
22:43 Space Marines
24:31 Necrons
26:16 Knight Households
28:56 Aeldari
30:14 Outro

[@TacticalTortoise]

Huge thanks to The Magnet Baron 🧲👑 for sponsoring this video! Check them out at -> themagnetbaron.com/

[@chromehunter2074]

@tacticalTortoise how can you make a tier list when the full army rules aren't even out for 10th yet? These are just index rules with limited detachment items. ??

[@BERD9001]

DG Terminator with 4" move: I fear no man, but that thing (looking at barbaguant) it scares me.

[@jimmysmith2249]

Right?

[@Narokh]

I really wonder why they don't have the same restriction pretty much every other unit with an on hit ability has - "pick one unit that was hit" - and if it was an oversight that they don't have it or if it was intentional.

[@sebastianmeyer8039]

barbaguants on a forest Battlefield^^

[@BERD9001]

​@@jimmysmith2249"The Death Guard’s approach is slow but inevitable, and their enemies fall choking under clouds of diseased smog." On the bright side, at least they didn't completely ignore the fluff. They nailed the slow part.

[@josephengland868]

😂

[@mattvucu6706]

When GW said they would put fewer re-rolls in this edition they meant they would put more in

[@Syst3m04]

Kind of like how they said it would be less lethal, but some armies can table you turn 2 🤷‍♂️

[@ThePoopoo12345]

They ment just for admech

[@Tyranoxthejust]

You tell em cap

[@MARStheFORSAKEN]

No there is fewer rerolls it's just that they all belong to aeldari,space marines and knights so on average they is technically less XD

[@ballsmcgee7783]

They cut the number of dice you roll, via twin linked, so technically you are rerolling less now.

[@thunderball44]

Deathguard are so forgotten they're called AdMech in the chapter titles 😂

[@Vardaangupta-]

lol

[@nurglematthew893]

Ha! Big luv.

[@CataclysmDM]

They're so bad right now they aren't even worth mentioning XD My giant DG army will be collecting dust

[@jarrod7465]

I know gw wanted to get rid of -1D spam but honestly Death Guard should have been the only faction to keep it it's important to their identity and made them unique and tough to kill.

[@big7industries]

should have reverted to their 8th edition 5+FnP

[@reginlief1]

Yeah, they didn’t necessarily have to completely remove that rule. If death guard kept it, would’ve made them much more unique.

[@mattb683]

I'm pretty sure it was the 5+ fnp but I'd take -1d over this

[@nurglematthew893]

Nurgle Bless Our Constitution In The Kindest Of Ways, Chat.

[@isheh19]

They could just give all DG infantry +1 wound (just like CSM chosen or DA termies). It they wanted to reduce the number or rolls required but still respect faction identity.

[@tudlaur7605]

THANK GOD a video about this of a reasonable length I am tired of seeing 3 hours videos about this

[@soffren]

I'm excited for Orks. I'm always excited for Orks though.

[@spiffcheeso]

Well I guess sisters are gonna be a superfan-only army until the codex drops and hopefully we get points cuts and a bloody rose equivalent detachment option

[@thunderball44]

Honestly the points are OK at the moment, mostly we just need an adjustment to our meltas to be anti-vehicle X. Call them Ministorum Meltas or something to differentiate them if needed. That and a better detachment rule as everyone's saying. I'm hoping we get a decent Valorous Heart or Argent Shroud detachment as well, I've had a whole edition of Bloody Rose and I'm very over only having melee as a viable option.

[@subaveragejoe2]

@@thunderball44 You can't be serious. Paragon warsuits are overpriced WITH MORVENN, let alone solo. Retributors are 10pts more expensive than Devastator marines for no sane reason. Our characters are universally 10-15% too expensive, both repentia and arcos are 30pts more expensive than Desolation squads despite have no armor, Dominions are 130pts despite having basic ass meltaguns in an edition where scout is mid for a shooting unit, Sacresants are 130pts for 10 despite not being able to kill 2 marines on average. The entire army is hilariously too expensive in ADDITION to having bad rules.

[@Lokd0wn]

In all honesty I don't know whether a Bloody Rose detachment would even really have any legs in this edition. With not being able to guarantee charges with Miracle Dice, the proliferation of Indirect and Overwatch and the increase of end/out of activation moves. I can't see the likes of buffed up Repentia or even Sacresants reaching the lines of a savvy opponent in a number that would have a real impact.

[@Istalrison]

Ì mean, it probably is not that representative yet, but Sisters are sitting at a 60% winrate right now

[@doomkingraye7692]

​@@Istalrisonsuperfan-only army as the comment said

[@23tovarm5]

As a admech player, I’m just gonna bunker down till our codex drops

[@FhtagnCthulhu]

At least yours is coming quickly!

[@IsaacEsquivel-Pilloud]

Well, that aged like milk didnt it?

[@midnightflare9879]

I don't care if you're losing with sisters. You're gonna look absolutely badass while doing so!

[@grumpycup4762]

Admech can be summed up as: GW wanted them to be a buffing faction (which is boring af imo, but that's their choice) so they made the mistake of balancing them around when the unit is buffed. A buffed admech unit that has all the doctrinas and stratagems and what-not activated. - Is OK. It's on par with other factions' units. The issue is that that's not how you balance stuff. You FIRST make it on par. The buffs then take it BEYOND that and make it GREAT. The reason for this is that you can only buff a certain number of units each round. Usually only 1. A good game-designer recognizes this. You have a BASELINE that's on par with other factions. Then you use the buffs to SUPERCHARGE certain units. That creates interesting gameplay and counterplay. You make DECISIONS on what to supercharge and when, and how much. The opponent gets counterplay in being tactical: - Oh he positioned his unit over to the left? Normally that's not a threat, but I think he's gonna superbuff it next turn, so I better divert some resources to deal with that! But oh! Then I may not have enough to deal with his tanks over to the right! But that's just the stats on their own, like BS/WS and saves (and wounds). We then have the issue of admech having really lackluster and boring HQs. For instance; 99% of players will only ever take a dominus if they are running Electropriests. Because using him on anything else is stupid when you get significantly more out of him when he leads electropriests. That's bad game-design. Cawl is... better than previous edition, but again; Just boring. He provides an aura of -1 to hit, and for 160 points, that may not be bad choice. But is it fun? Is it INTERESTING? - Not at all. I'd rather he cost 300+ points and be more in line with the likes of Guilliman, Abaddon and the Lion. Providing TRUE power and FUN. Then we have the issue of the Kastelans and the Datasmith. You now cannot run Kastelans without a Datasmith, if you wanna swap protocols that is. Doing so also makes the unit Infantry, which means Kastelans can be wounded by anti-infantry weaponry on a 4+.... Not only that. The protocol swap has a SIGNIFICANT chance of straight up failing. And I think it's still an ACTION to do it. So the Datasmith can literally fail it, and then not get to do anything for the rest of the turn lmao. It's just... a mess. The entire index is a mess. It needs to be reworked from the ground up. Every single datasheet needs to be re-evaluated and overhauled. The only truly good unit we have is the Kataphron Breachers. And even then, it's due to stacking buffs on them.... And EVEN THEN; they're nothing special compared to other factions.

[@jedrzejjezierski2533]

Nice movie bro! I used to use this outro music for my youtube channel a few years back. Ah, nostalgia

[@RotaFury]

It will be fun to see just how much each codex drop will shake things up. Given we get nids first it could show us how much a lower teir faction will change.

[@OspreyRed]

On the topic of dark Eldar. It has historically been a fast shooting, kabalite focused army which spammed lances/blasters/disintegrators. The only edition it had good melee that could do reliable damage was 9th. That’s it. 9th was the anomaly. It’s just back to what it was up until then.

[@archonlelithjose5902]

Yes yes . 9 Edition was the Best for drukhari .

[@mulattofy]

And 6th edition but ok

[@Zach-kc4mq]

This was two weeks ago but I feel you should take another look at Tyranids. I didn't hear you speak about all the buff stacking, which gives things like feel no pain giving a lot of survivability, or the adaptability: do more attacks vs infantry, or guaranteed wounds to vehicles/monsters or the ability to hit characters first. And you can gain multiples of these buffs and more within synapse range.

[@The80sWolf_]

How should I build a blood axe kommando focused army?

[@goforitpainting]

Cool as always.

[@TheStromzilla]

Heads-up: the time stamps show "AdMech" for the DG section of the video. :)

[@OccamsHammer]

Seems mostly reasonable except I think CK are fine tier and 1kSons should move up. SM ahead of Necrons too. CK just aren't nearly as strong as IK. I feel like IK being overtuned is just causing people to think CK are in the same tier.

[@dashkataey1740]

Upset about Votann. I just picked up the army set and read through the codex and was pretty excited about creating my own league. It's disheartening to hear that they are just an army now and you can't have much uniqueness to them like I was hoping for. Regardless, still going to paint them however I want to and make them mine. As for their Eye of the Ancestor rule, perhaps a way to make it better is something like, "Whenever a League of Votann unit is wounded but not killed, the attacking unit gets a Judgement token if it doesn't have one. Whenever a League of Votann unit is killed, the attacking unit gets a Judgement token." I don't know if that would be too powerful or not but from what I'm seeing, Judgement tokens are the way the army works and it needs a better way of dishing them out to multiple units other than just throwing sacrificial lambs to the slaughter. The first Judgement token is easier to give out to units since all they have to do is damage your bigger units but the only way to give them a second Judgement token would be for them to kill a unit. Would make the army feel more like vengeful dwarves. Just a thought.

[@stevenburton7725]

I will disagree with your assessment of World Eaters and Drukhari. After five games so far against the pairing, I have to say that World Eaters have absolutely nothing to do against a dedicated gun line, and that’s all that Drukhari do. And the Daemon Prince/Jakhals combo can’t deal with deep strike. I have not seen World Eaters win a game, even in battle reports. And Drukhari gun line armies are actually very strong.

[@majedmalek4429]

Totally agree. Im a Drukhari player and currently 8 and 3 in 10th. He is right about the dark lance spam though 😂 it works great hahahaha

[@majedmalek4429]

I agree with you i mean ***

[@stevenburton7725]

@@majedmalek4429 my current list is just spam: 2 Archons, 2x10 Warriors, 3 Cronos, 3 Ravagers, 3x5 Scourges, 3 Talos, and 2 Tantalus. I wanted to throw in a Court of the Archon, but it was more fluffy than effective.

[@WrathsReachTTG]

Great watch! enjoying the tsons so far!

[@kandifamily]

As someone who just started his imperial knights army off and is planning on getting into playing 40k for the first time in tenth edition after being into the lore for many years and I really hope that Imperial knights aren’t incredibly ahead of the pack in terms of ingame strength as I would like to be able to enjoy my games

[@carsontyler3203]

What's strange to me is that this is the only video I have seen where both IK and CK are top tier. While strong, most other players I've spoken to put them as a middle of the pack army, with IK almost always being stronger than CK. I think Knights as a whole are a very "noob" stomper faction, but suffer against experienced players. Knights just play a different game than other factions which forces the other player to adapt to them.

[@sgtredbeardtg2862]

I have been trying to pick a combat patrol box and before i saw this video i was like you know what Aeldari seems cool. Now (cause i know nothing) i know they are good.

[@hamishwalker9637]

I'm gonna call serious bullshit of thousand sons in fine tier, they are fucking annoyingly strong. It's crazy hard to even get near them because of rubrics with spammed warpflamers, and Magnus will fuck you up. Some factions literally don't have the tools to kill the bastard

[@johndoe-cv1gv]

Like any high T, W model with a 4++, the only way to kill them is with high volume. It's not unique to Magnus. Magnus just excels at dealing with high damage targets in this edition.

[@hamishwalker9637]

@@johndoe-cv1gv but he also has the 2+ armour save, so making him fail saves is also bloody tough, especially because of the cabal ritual to re-rolls saves, that can be done twice because of the enhancement. I play csm and it feels like my two options are deep strike a unit of obliterators 9" from him, hope none die to the inevitable 10d6 of warpflamers on the squad of nearby rubrics, and fire all their damage 6 guns at him and home for the best, followed up by ramming a brick of chosen lead by a master of executions (and either Fabius bile for s6 accursed weapons, or a master of possessions for his anti-psyker shit) for full re-rolls on units below half strength for the chosen, then pray that does enough, cos if that doesn't finish him he probably almost wipes the squad. The other option is 3 forgefiends with max ectoplasma cannons shooting him for 2-3 battle rounds and hope he doesn't double-move ritual to come squish them all.

[@johndoe-cv1gv]

​@@hamishwalker9637 It's tough. The bigger threat is the 1 CP stratagem to reduce a failed save to 0 damage. While it can theoretically be used twice, it does eat away at your cabal points so that you cannot then use them to buff the damage output of Terminators. Killing everything else is the easier option. Rubrics, Tzaangors and HQ's are all T4, Terminators are T5. They have no MW protection, and can all fall so incredibly quickly. Magnus will only kill a few TEQ's in melee each turn, and as his psychic weapons lack the PISTOL keyword, they cannot be used in melee... Whereas a brick of SoT's will annihilate near enough any target in the game in a single round of shooting. Also, Temporal Surge (double move) has a restriction that doesn't allow you to charge in the same turn. To quote the index... "can make a Normal move. If it does, that unit is not eligible to declare a charge this turn." It's also not smart to send a 410 point model way up the field (losing access to his most important buff, the aura for +1 to hit and wound on psychic weapons) just to trade for a handful of TEQ's (you're spending 410pts, to trade for roughly 150) Oh, and Magnus will kill 4-5 Chosen in melee, based on averages. (see below) 7 attacks profile hitting on 2's results in: - 6 successful hits, - 1 wound roll of 6 (proc-ing DevWounds) - 1 failed wound roll - 4 successful wound rolls 1 x 3W Chosen dies to the DevWounds flat 3. You then make 4 saving throws at -3 AP. You're then rolling 6+ to save. Short of luck, 4 more dead. Chosen will deal 1-2 wounds to Magnus, but a lot more to Terminators. You're making a poor decision / trade to send them in to Magnus.

[@codyott1982]

I think I saw your sm tier list, but as I own sm and nids, I would like lists of both (if you haven't already done them).

[@theemus]

DG so bad they didn't even deserve to have their chapter in the video named after them.

[@jakestefano4118]

I foresee the nerfbat incoming for Knights

[@jeremycoffey5249]

So glad all four of my armies are going to suck in this edition :) Nice breakdown but I did see a really good game on another channel that showcased some serious grey knight butt whoopin on some demons. I think they are going to be a little more solid than you think. I think the ability to be able to always jump to be in position for attack or bolster defenses will be a huge advantage. And sadly not they are not one of my four armies :) DG, LoV, AdMech, Tyranids

[@dittmar104]

The redeploy is definitely stronger in casual play than higher tables

[@clayandros2038]

I kep seeing this EVERYWHERE so Our custodes rerolls are probably some of the least aggressive reroll mechamics compared to something like space marines or even the eldar who can just fix their rolls. Also because of how vehicle and heavy fure focused the meta is right now we arent in a very good spot when everything isnjust focus fire drop 3 damage shots on iur already small units.

[@FhtagnCthulhu]

While I think Votann can be okay with points adjustments, I don't think that would make them fun. They are still a tough army that needs units to die to trigger their core mechanic. They still have some do-nothing characters. Still can't benefit from their army rule and several of their own buffs. Basically no rerolls. Strats are a mixed bag. They just do not have much going on. I think even just raising them back to BS 3 wouldn't be broken. The one nice thing I can say is that the 'ignores cover' is fluffy for hunter weapons and very useful. At this point, just take away judgement tokens and start from scratch. They are almost as bad a design as Admech or DG, just accidentally have slightly better sheets.

[@christopherhughes7970]

As someone who has never played 40k but has played other tabletop games I’m curious to know if you can combine multiple armies in one list. Like could I Combine space wolves and imperial knights or space wolves and astra militarum, or possibly even all 3 into one list and still be a valid fighting force?

[@user-hv6gi9ux6z]

You can ally in "imperial agents" for imperial army's, allowing you to take a few models from inquisitors, assassins and knights. Genestealer cults can use imperial gaurd units. And chaos army's have agents of chaos which is the chaos flavour of imperial agents

[@donaldtsummers80]

Just a heads up, your bookmarks have Death Guard listed as Adeptus Mechanicus.

[@UnalloyedMalenia]

Sisters really got done dirty

[@FrankSGuerra]

CKs seem too high to me, and 1KSons too low, but I think this is pretty close.

[@Vardaangupta-]

nah chaos knights seem to be on par with the imperial knights the only difference is that imperial knights tend to be a bit more tanky where as chaos hit VERY hard, the brigands are the main reason they do so and with the desecrator giving re rolls it is very hard to survive a shooting phase of a knight army especially because you can't hide behind terrain because the big knights can see you even if you are behind ruins

[@Dale4cetanu]

@@Vardaangupta- Brigands aren't big knights though and CK big knights are not as lethal OR as tanky as Imperial big knights. So You can hide from brigands, and you can kill the big ones easier. It's not the same

[@Saltism1]

came here to say this, our faction rule isnt comparable to the IK one and against Marines(there is a lot of those players out there) or any other good LD army, we dont get our army rule to take affect that often. I agree their shooting is good but this has started off as a shooting addition so its good for most factions if they focus on shooting as was stated in the video.

[@ConorJT3]

Really enjoying my daemons in 10th so far! Only played 2 casual games against my Thousand Sons buddy and managed to win both. Be’Lakor is such a boon. They kind of feel like how you described Orks; if you can deliver a ton of charges in one turn it bodes really well Also since Corrupt Realspace can be done in any Command phase, doing it in your opponent’s turn then getting away with Realm of Chaos can be a tricky little combo

[@madisonkung8390]

I'm building a primarily Tzeentch/Slaanesh Daemons army this edition and I couldn't be more excited! They're a bit of a more fiddly army from my understanding, but I have a lot of faith in them.

[@Wes-xk6hl]

I feel like tau at least 1 tier higher but only very specific lists My thing with knights is that everyone always seems to ignore that they only have like 6 models on the table. What does the community think they should get for that incredibly huge disadvantage? It has to be something. We cant just ignore that key aspect. Sure its real easy to hate on them if you act like the other variables are the same as every other army. But if you make them about the same strength as other armies (which have 50 models on the table) then by definition they are going to be trash. Which is obviously why theyre so hard to balance and are always on the knifes edge of being viable or unplayable

[@aleczandergordon1298]

Na knights need a big nerf, every single player sees that.

[@Wes-xk6hl]

​@@aleczandergordon1298 think you missed the point. I didn't say anything about them needing or not needing a nerf

[@MrHoneuma]

Nah. Tau currently have the 2nd worst winrate in the game. If anything, they're too high.

[@leSmokySmoke]

My knight list has 2 big Guys and EIGHT small ones :) I walk over and obliterate everything I see, No Army can Deal with 8 Tanks (with toughness 10 for some reason) and 2 mega Tanks Walking Up to you Just smacking your face in. I am not at any disadvantage, because after my First Turn you lost at least 3 whole Units No Matter what it is. I need a Nerf asap :) Make armigers T9 Raise some Points so I can't have 10 Guys and then we're fine maybe

[@SLG493]

@@leSmokySmoke you are the first knights player i've heard to admit that the faction is OP thanks for your honesty mate.

[@kylewells6871]

When the 40k app asked what the name for my DG list was gonna be, I went with "Sad Guys" ((facepalm))

[@subaveragejoe2]

Honestly, he's being generous with Sisters. The entire army is just...not functional. Even points won't fix us.

[@EPICSAWIKI]

Sister was my second army and I Just finished building all of them. 1850 points of sisters right before the index’s dropped.. I feel you brother..

[@nurglematthew893]

Very great reviews, Teammate!

[@JasperXoR]

I think your ad covered up the Ad Mech part. it's labeled but there is no discussion of Ad Mech.

[@woahhbro2906]

TSons are probably a bit better than CSM, but solid list

[@neckris512]

i play sisters, i like the " miracles are better than fate dices!' haha! sure just w8 to get table 1rst and i will saw u!

[@XPOL12X]

Necrons are insane. A single cryptothrall tanked 21 wounds before dying- it has 2 wounds. Then it got reanimated. I blew away 13 warriors with 6 bladeguard. They all got reanimated and then wiped the bladeguard. Last fight against warrior blob of 20 plus the diviner, overlore and cryptothrall, i killed at least 50 warrioirs and sniped the diviner. Character reanimated at full health and warrior blob still full health at the end.

[@Tehstampede]

I like that knights are in a good spot right now because I play CK but I don't like that they're in the BEST spot because they're going to get nerfed

[@Wes-xk6hl]

That's the story of every edition. O yey, knights are actually playable maybe I'll actually see some awesome models on the table. Enter community who thinks they should have never been added to the game. Knights die off and I never actually see them I really wanted to play knights, but I just can't because it's been like this 3x now. I'd simply be a fool to pay all that and paint them up for nothing other than some awesome models on my shelf

[@TheMalthas]

@@Wes-xk6hl I've played knights for a couple of editions now and even when these tier lists say they are bottom tier I've never seen it. Most of the lists you see on the battle reps are really cookie cutter and i really feel that their strength lies in more skewed lists. Like 10 armigers and 1 questoris, or bringing one of the big acastus class and a vailiant stacking it very heavy. i find if you aren't playing against someone really good they fold with the amount of pressure you can apply across the whole table.

[@MrHoneuma]

They're not. This is his opinion. As far as actual performance thus far, Chaos Knights are actually just barely in GW's target performance at 45%, if it weren't for the fact that 13 armies are below that mark, you could make the argument that they're underperforming. So I would say don't worry too much about it. As long as they're based around Battle Shock, they probably won't be in the top tiers. Imperial Knights on the other hand are 1 of the 2 most overperforming armies with a winrate over 60%.

[@tommyback7642]

How do you deploy from an aircraft?

[@alfred8936]

It seems like GW chronically overvalues Miracle Dice as a mechanic. Sure it's strong, but every Sisters unit feels pointed like it somehow makes up for their awful stats

[@OperatorJoker]

Literally played a game against T'au yesterday as Astra Militarum and got board wiped the second battlephase tell me how they are labled as "MEH". I lasted longer against Adeptus Custodes

[@nickthenoodle9206]

I have an Eldar army, and there is good news for those who face them. Two words - Indirect Fire. Eldar don't really have an answer. Imp Guard find it easy to wipe the floor with them when stationary. 3 units of 3 mortar teams fire 9d6 S5 attacks auto wounding on 6's. 1 squad of 3 has a decent chance of taking out a Farseer in cover, and out of sight. Marine Desolation squads are excellent as well. This is the way. Oh, and its important to note that Aeldari were not play tested, otherwise it would have been noticed that some storm guardians, ie dedicated melee troops, don't have a melee profile. Their datasheet was simply copied and pasted from the original incarnation without fact checking. Autarch Skyrunners with a fusion gun cannot melee either.

[@boyanpenev9822]

The eldar index is carried by several absurdly priced units and the way Fate Dice interact with "natural" 6s. Making fate dice not count as unmodified and upping several point costs (knights, prisms and wraithguard are imo the top contenders, and I can definitely see D-cannons and hornets joining them) can make a considerable difference in win rate. Ironically, outside of Harlequins, GW did a decent job of keeping them in a competitive but far from overwhelming state for the latter third of 9E.

[@nickthenoodle9206]

@@boyanpenev9822 Knight are broken, but can be destroyed. I normally play Eldar, but I played with a mates Marine army, against his Eldar. He borrowed my Knight and 2 Prisms as well. My army included 30 Scout Snipers, 1 unit led by a Phobos captain with bolter discipline, and the army in devastator mode. With the Storm of Fire stratagem, the Knight didn't survive long enough to shoot, and used much of his fate die. My 15 desolators destroyed two of his 3 Prisms that round as well. For well under a 1000pts, these 46 troops destroyed the heart of his army. I play Eldar. I know how to beat them. Currently the means is Indirect Fire.

[@ruas4721]

@@boyanpenev9822 Beside the combination of DW + FD the Eldar index is very bad. The Fire Prism and the two Avatars are the 3 good models with damage and tankynes. Most units are just unplayable.

[@samhunter1205]

@@ruas4721 you keep spamming this bollocks. Do you have some sort of problem?

[@samhunter1205]

@@nickthenoodle9206 agreed indirect is a major Aeldari weakness. That said, both Space Marine and Imperial Guard indirect is very far from ok and also needs a severe nerf. Also, out of interest, if you opponent was playing a wraithknight into a ton of indirect, why the hell didn't he deep strike it? I mean, I don't disagree that the few factions that can spam ridiculously undercosted and very efficient indirect can beat Eldar, but at the same time that doesn't mean Eldar are not broken or that all armies can do the same thing against them.

[@thefloridaman41]

As a Daemon player I feel like we have a really weird niche where we just need some quality of life buffs in the game like you said or else we are gonna be a really weird army in a few months. Like Mass battleline spam (particularly Daemonettes & Plague Bearers) with Daemon Prince support over the classics GD spam.

[@xaymhd8818]

Tsons definitely need to be higher

[@michaelallen7269]

Hmm dark eldar has always been a shooting army since 3rd Ed. They just became decent in melee the last few editions.

[@dawn4383]

I think the problem is they have a lot of dedicated melee that are just terrible now.

[@skilz2kil528]

@@dawn4383 I havent gone through the 10th changes too much yet, what made all their melee trash now?

[@FearTheCaboose1337]

​@@skilz2kil528weak high volume melee is pretty bad this edition, and that's most of their melee threat

[@dawn4383]

@@skilz2kil528 They lost advance and charge, combat drugs, stratagem synergy, and general melee blobs got nerfed by the engagement range changes.

[@samhunter1205]

@@skilz2kil528 yes. Some of the coven options are ok but Wych cults and Incubi are not good at all. Wych cults also lost their combat drugs, which is a major loss of flavour and another fucking brain-dead decision.

[@davidjones4772]

I think GSC are top of good for sure. With uktc terrain they would go above knights.

[@Poisonedwight]

I really wish they’d give slaanesh his own traitor faction or even just a separate faction from the chaos deamons I mean he has the emperors children but when are they gonna be made playable?

[@joheras9330]

Deathgaurd look at Chaos demons and Nids and wish they could share the Fnps they have across the board... its a travisty as somebody whos fought nothing but eldar all week i can say this... Gw really loved this faction to much and gave it literally the jack of all trades and thats not even considering there fate dice mechniq which is just a supped up version of sisters miricle dice i have no idea what GW was thinking or if they were thinking when making eldar faction as a whole.

[@lukefreeman4281]

The GW design team have always been full of Eldar d#ck riders. Its fine Eldar units being the best but make them damn expensive!! ATM their super powerful and cheap!! 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@n0rst4thew1cked3]

Question for KZbin people. This is my first change to a new edition, got in during late 9th. For Black Templars, Helbrecht and the Marshal don't have Chapter Master or Captain keyword. Do y'all think that's an error? And if so, how long does GW take to make changes like that?

[@user-jp6zs9vz8r]

Hard to say. It may be intentional that they don't want the rules for castellans to stack with them, or rules for apothecaries, lieutenants etc. to combine with the marshals. Or it could indeed be an oversight.

[@munchinbiscuits]

Sadly GW are rarely consistent enough to give you a straight answer. You could get lucky and get a surprise faq, or it could be something that gets addressed at the next balance dataslate

[@n0rst4thew1cked3]

@@user-jp6zs9vz8r from 90% of the videos I've watched, with groups who competitively play 40k, most of them think it's an oversight, sucks because it really is a game changer

[@user-jp6zs9vz8r]

@n0rst4thew1cked3 they did just say this morning that a balance and errata is coming next week from the looks of it. Hopefully it will be addressed

[@D00M3R_MAVS]

what about black templars? they have different rules to "space marines".

[@RobDP1981]

Sad my tyranids werent buffed to be higher up the list.

[@ValyrianGenos]

T-Sons are OP right now.

[@Bovineicide]

It's so funny that 40k is having it's DnD 4th edition moment

[@jakestefano4118]

I'm out of the loop on that one. What's the similarity?

[@Bovineicide]

@@jakestefano4118 wotc decided to make huge, sweeping changes to 4th edition that everyone hated. So much so that 5th is basically them going back to 3.5 lol

[@jakestefano4118]

@@Bovineicide Ha gotchya, I could maybe see that if they dont get their balance in order quickly.

[@thetimebinder]

No, 4e was a well designed game with great rules and purpose. WH40K has NEVER been any of that.

[@re1v3r]

After watching Grey Knights @TableTopTactics, they're OP

[@stomptrooper1896]

DG should get their own tier below bad.

[@ryankyle2467]

That’s a little disappointing how low the Orks are but that’s fine since my other two armies are pretty high on this list!

[@bronzejoseph9393]

Orks now don't have too much power to smash everyone just by brutal force. But, they can be more devastating in missions. Well said, they are now cheap (85 for Boyz, 105 for SnaggaBoyz), mobile (6 inch move and charge after advance in specific situasions) like witches, tough (5 toughness against bolters and lasguns, 5++ once per battle, nobz with boss have -1 to wound) like wracks - they can fill the board, and with a few ones, that actually can do damage - outscore EVERYTHING. Necrons can ressurect from "nothing" - don't care Mortal wounds everywhere - well done, I have 22 more units to go (more often, mw concentrate on killing 1 unit) So, yeah, Orks aren't too strong - but they have more scoring tactics, than anyone else. And, cause missions nowadays are around objectives - I can do nothing with your army, and still win.

[@bloodraven5533]

I'm really not a fan of Astra militarum's 'lethal hits if you're stationary' Sacrificing movement for lethal hits might be good, but it's so boring. Like who wants to fight against a stationary tank line, who wants to play as that? Maybe with artillery, but I don't want to have to sit still with infantry and tanks just to be able to put out a middling fight

[@RazORKful]

Still faithful to my ommnisiah.. hoping the new codex later in the year gives us something.... Why do they hate destroyers so much?

[@obsidanix]

Grey Knights probably need to go from meh to good. Unless is a army thats brought a lot of tanks. Knights will push and hold any infantry army off objectives. If its a tank advance amd charge baby carrier with the hammer does fair damage to tanks.

[@MrHoneuma]

I'm going to disagree straight away on the notions that Leagues of Votann and Adeptus Mechanicus are bad. Based on win-rates, they're 2 of the 8 armies in GW's target range of 45% to 55% at 48% and 49% respectively. Someone even went 4-1 with Admech at one of the GTs this past weekend. So I think its probably safe to say that their players jumped the gun and overreacted. Sisters aren't doing great, but theyre still about 37% for their winrate. Death Guard however are actually dead last at a 26% winrate. In order at the moment, its Drukhari, Guard, Sisters, Tau and Deathguard as the bottom 5 factions.

[@big7industries]

Admech aren't great, but they don't belong in the bottom tier, been playing special Olympics with the derpy armies, and Admech are definitely the big Fish in the pond, they could prolly make it into the "Meh" bracket. A small points reduction will prolly get them into a good spot.

[@jegysesara7070]

Love the Knights getting some love. My Forgeworld Lancer has changed each edition and now it had a bondsman ability and way more deadly. Just awesome!

[@willlondon4964]

Agreed, seems Knight Lancer will become a common sight once the plastic kit is out. (I'm waiting until then to get one) 4++ is amazing one less attack than a gallant but much more durable and inbuilt tank shock.

[@jegysesara7070]

@@willlondon4964 I have had this one from 8th Edition, wanted an Imperial Knight that was unique and saw the least love was given to the Lancer. So I ended up restoring one that was beaten up from eBay for about 160. Safe to say, it seems to always be the Warlord or Second in Command. It does very well but yeah, it is a built in tank of death. My only real concern has been 1000 point games. Generally all you can take is one knight and maybe rest of Armigers. Got lucky as the Lancer with 2 Warglaives and 2 Helverins is exactly 1000. Also yes, them having a flat 4++ Invul is surprising. Most of the time, it survives enough till near the end. Now it may survive the whole battle potentially.

[@mekpriestchris8746]

Wow. I hadnt actualy kept up with 10th eds release or read through my armies data cards yet so when you put them right at the bottom I decided to pause and go have a look.... And wow I did not expect them to rad nuke my cog boys this hard. 4+ ballistics and 90% of the unit rules stripped. 10th is a completely different animal. Obviously I don't have a lot of context yet. I knew everything was gonna get somewhat kicked. But had no idea they were boros kicking shit straight to the moon. Will be really interesting to get a game in of this ultra stripped down stuff. Though I have to say the one thing i actually don't like (rather than just being gut thrown off by which could be wrong) Is the removal of faction customisation. We waited so long for custom subfactions to come back for 9th and now they are just gone again. So good bye fluffy rules choices, hello again generic models but green I guess. Maybe the codex's will give more options. Though i remember them saying somewhere 1rule in 1rule out so..... i guess I'm probably just shit outta fluff.

[@LoftOfTheUniverse]

If Aeldari are the top, then their counter picks would be higher on the list i.e. custodes, 1k sons, grey knights.

[@DarrinSK]

Somebody help my machine boys!!! :(

[@valaquenta220]

Good. At least now we know that votann ,death guard and adeptus mechanicus will eventually receive some major buffs (as they should). Which (funnily enough) makes it the BEST moment to start collecting one of these !

[@Grossmond]

I like how you point out how Necrons have an amazing full wound reroll while not calling out its requirement of half range....

[@CrustDee]

Because you get it at full range when the unit is led by a character which is extremely easy to do. With the enhancement

[@Grossmond]

@CrustDee You're not wrong, and I agree that its easy to have a leader. It just felt like a bit of an oversimplification to the requirements of the strat.

[@CrustDee]

@@Grossmond probably just to get his point across smoother. I don't think most of the strats will be used often without the leader buff. :)

[@mintyaroma987]

I think you could have placed Thousand Sons higher - between their Cabalistic Rituals, Strats and Ahriman allowing another free Strat and hence Ritual, you can make 3 blocks of 10 man Scarab Occult Terminators or Rubric Marines all have Devastating Wounds along with other buffs from characters pumping out 40+ MW a turn fairly reliably. They have insane combos with very high ceilings so as long as you apply them properly they can just about take on anyone!

[@johndoe-cv1gv]

If you're going to make statements based on a factions abilities... MAKE SURE YOU'RE CORRECT WITH WHAT YOU SAY. The fact that you even think Devastating Wounds is the correct choice to tech towards, speaks volumes to your ignorance. FYI, the math of combo-ing Sustained Hits 1 (via detach rule), Lethal Hits (via sorcerer in terminator armour), and the cabal ritual to strip armour saves... is SIGNIFICANTLY higher damage than fishing for MW's. 1) Ahriman's once per battle free Cabal ritual cannot be used on Echoes to generate a free stratagem if you've already used said ritual in the turn. Refer to the line in his datasheet ", all the other rules for using Rituals still apply". Ahriman CANNOT use his ability to double up on a ritual. There's an enhancement that allows double tapping of a cabal ritual, but it isn't free (25pts + cabal points for ritual). At most, you can use 2 separate stratagems TWICE in one turn. (spend CP on stratagem 1, spend CP on stratagem 2, spend cabal rituals to re-use stratagem, activate enhancement to then spend more cabal points on another stratagem). The strongest stratagem double up combo (to layer on to 2 x 10 terminator units) is full re-rolls, and bolters buffed to S5 with the PSYCHIC keyword. BOTH units required to be within 6" of Magnus to gain the aura buff. 2 x 10 SoT's, Magnus, and at least one Sorcerer in Terminator Armour (with enhancement to double up on cabal rituals) is 1360 points. Throw in another 65 minimum points for a 10 man unit of Tzaangors / Cultists for the backfield objective / screening, and you're up to at least 1425 points. Congratz, you now own two objectives, and have 575 points left to perform objectives, and contest another primary objective (provided you even have the range). 2) One 10 man brick of Terminators, at half range, with every single buff layered (S5 Bolters, PSYCHIC keyword, full hit and wound re-rolls, Devastating Wounds detachment rule, AND proximity to Magnus for +1 to hit/wound) is 32 attacks. Fishing for 6's, re-rolling EVERYTHING that isn't a 6 on the hit roll, yields 9.504 x 6's. Factoring in the 2 x SRC's (12 shots, you'll gain an extra 2 MW on average. Your total is 11.504 MW's Lets assume you went for 2 x 10 SoT's, and somehow can position them both in proximity to Magnus, while ALSO gaining LoS for EVERY single model to shoot, you now have 23.008 MW's from a 1360 point combo (AND all of your resources). Magnus shooting puts out an average of 2.5 MW's, and his melee (if you somehow manage to charge him in, which would make things tricky to keep him within aura buff range of SoT's... Good luck). is approx 2.9 MW. New total: 25.508 (or 28.408 with melee). Any other available points you have left over, teching in to the highest damage potential for MW's, would bump you up to at best, 30. This is assuming an unbelievable amount of unlikely factors are going your way (in which your opponent is stupid enough to allow you LoS with TWENTY terminators, without ANY recourse). In essence, you'd have to be vs'ing a fellow window licker, with dementia. If you double down on your window licking, and take a 3rd unit of SoTs... Congratz, you now have 165 points left to spend on units that will score you points. You will also be unable to position in a way that allows you to both benefit from Magnus' Aura, AND have LoS to shoot. You will also NOT have more than 10 cabal points total (defeating your ability to even double tap the free stratagem ritual, as it costs 6 per use, totaling 12). Congratz, you now also lack the CP to protect Magnus if you fail a saving throw against a big damage gun. Take a moment to stop licking windows, and use that time to do some self reflection.

[@tkka3250]

I can assume my ynnari are mid low tier being a close combat deal?

[@TheMartinator99]

You have an aeldari army with a few special models and a different coat of paint. Just use the aeldari parts. That index is full of good stuff

[@samhunter1205]

​@@TheMartinator99Most people don't have three of every unit to choose from though do they? If your collection is made up primarily of Aeldari melee units then yes, it will be pretty bad, at least until you go and buy the models to turn your list into a gun line (which you probably don't want to do, or you wouldn't have been playing Ynnari in the first place). Almost every single Aeldari melee unit got severely nerfed from 9th edition. Banshees, Scorpions and Incubi are mediocre at best. Wytches and shining spears are bad. Troupes are ok but none of your melee options can deal well with heavy infantry, let alone vehicles or monsters.

[@TheMartinator99]

@@samhunter1205 You will still easily best mid low tier with access to fate dice and the detatchment rerolls. That index is full enough of good sheets beyon the broken ones

[@samhunter1205]

@@TheMartinator99 you are missing the point. Ynnari have traditionally been a melee army, and that is how almost everyone plays them. The index can be full of amazing options (and it is, if you count broken as amazing), but that doesn't matter if there isn't a viable melee build. Now sure, Ynnari can lean into more firepower than before but that just compromises the identity of the army. It is a similar situation with Drukhari. They have some really quite powerful gun-line builds, but that doesn't matter too much to most Drukhari players because that isn't what they play.

[@TheMartinator99]

@@samhunter1205 a) im saying there are amazing options because theres plenty of stuff in there that isnt quite broken but really good with the faction rules b) factions play different now get over it c) i wont take complaints about how your army is mid or low tier from someone who literally has aeldar models standing there. If your place on a tierlist is of concern to you, and you play ynnari, chances are you have enough aeldari models to easily pivot into a good list. A lot of other factions arent that lucky. Ynnari is a bonus flavor you put onto your elves, stop bullshitting yourselves

[@EPICSAWIKI]

Played my first game of 10th last night. Tyranids Vs. Grey Knights, I won but only by a hair. The psychopage is practically designed to kill Grey Knights so that helped also. Even though I won, it was really underwhelming on both of our sides. We had fun like always but it just felt.. weird? You know? Nothing felt “Smooth” about Tyranids. It’s hard to describe but my opponent agreed he felt the same way. Idk if it’s 10th or just both of our armies but something feels off.

[@alexzero3736]

Grey knights as very elite army often struggle against unit spam armies...

[@darksteelmenace595]

I disagree on the Chaos Knights. If your opponent has decent anti tank or can mitigate the high toughness they actually melt pretty fast because their saves are really mediocre still. And their army rule is just very inconsistant. Also their own anti tank is kinda meh because the meltas have too little strength.

[@UntiltedName]

Their army rule and the abilities keying off it may as well not exist during the turns it maters most tbh. They should be in good tier at best but the Towering rule is making people alarmed about them. If they lose Towering or people use solid terrain, they need something to guarantee battle shock, not leave their rules up to lucky shock tests.

[@kuhndog7468]

No black Templar?

[@Wes-xk6hl]

The real winners of this edition will be necrons and gsc. With such a huge shift towards tanks, which wont be changing, it means everyone is going to have to build for that. Virtually everyone they play against will be that so theres not really a choice. But then that means they arent set up to deal with gsc or necrons. And you cant set up for both at the moment

[@leSmokySmoke]

Thats bullshit. If anything it hurts gsc and necrons aswell, gsc for example wants to bring 2 Trucks, 2, 4, some even want to Bring 6 ridgerunner. Which you either cant do, sacrificing your own choices, or Just give away bring it down because it grants so many points. Plus both factions, especially gsc again giving away assassination for free aswell. So on a competitive Level, you either cant bring your own AGame right now and suffer yourself against vehicles, or give away at least 30 Points for free since they can all just kill your low T vehicles easily. Which makes it very hard to win right now, even with all the Points you can make yourself.

[@leSmokySmoke]

Assassination needs a Split as Well, with any character at 3 wounds or below only giving 2vp

[@oscarsantillan6487]

chaos knights are not in the same tier as imperial knights, chaos knights have army rules, as well as a detachment rule, chaos knights have one between 5-10% of the games, and the rules of the questoris knights, as well as the bondsman abilities from forgeworld models are far better than any other biffs than chaos knights get at very similar points costs, the only thing that chaos knights get are better armiger class datasheets, mainly the brigand war dog, besides that is just worse imperial knights, as well as worse souping options.

[@Wes-xk6hl]

Lol iv tested both and 14 small knights in chaos is unbelievably better than imperial. People complain about knights lists that aren't even that great. This chaos list I made makes them look like trash

[@valaquenta220]

fully agreed : chaois knights are mid tier, not top tier. Imperial knights are op though.

[@KawaiiAzusa]

And current tournament results show that you are correct. Right now Imperial Knights have the second best win rate in the game while Chaos Knights are pretty much exactly in the middle of the pack. I think this shows that Towering or at least Wardogs/Armigers aren't the problem. The Big Knights are just undercosted and leave little counterplay to many armies, especially with the enhanced tankiness of IK (like -1 Damage aura, or a 6+/5+ FNP)

[@Wes-xk6hl]

​@KawaiiAzusa literally 1 weekend of tournaments lol. And the vast majority of those were rtts which have never really counted in terms of measuring things. For the most part you guys are probably right but let's give it a bit more sample size before we start quoting win rates And everyone is wrong about what makes imperial stronger. IF they are stronger, it's because they can slot in agents to virtually fully mitigate the weakness knights have always had. The fact that I havnt seen anyone talk about that tells me most people don't really know much about the situation

[@oscarsantillan6487]

@@Wes-xk6hl I mentioned that chaos have worse supping options, because a vindicare can snipe the warlord turn 2 and give a 5+++ army wide, an option that chaos doesn't have

[@Sigdowner]

For Votann, changing the token role to "they get +1 BS and +1 WS against the unit" would be a quick fix that may not make them amazing, but would help a lot. That and 24 range for the Magna Rail Rifle, but I'm not holding my breath on that second one.

[@reginlief1]

While I agree whole heartedly, I imagine trying to word that could be hard. I think I’d rather change the Iron-Master’s ability to “increase BS”. And then hope we get a melee-focused leader in the wave 2 we’re getting…

[@markhohenbrink5230]

I agree with the Bad tier entirely and would add Tau is definitely almost in that tier if you dont want to spend anywherw between 2-3k USD on forgeworld units. The index has a ton of problems and FTGG in incredibly bad for what the Tau playstyle is with something like the Taunar.

[@adamgarcia3063]

why am i not surprise for the xenos faction getting almost Meh ranking hahahaha

[@TheSoulMeister]

My sisters. My poor sisters army. ;_;

[@chiledog24]

Played 3 games with deamons vs guard using belakor to prevent any fire turn 1 every game i had to concede on turn 2 as one round of guard shooting destroyed 50 percent of my army in each game

[@Wes-xk6hl]

I have to believe a lot of the doomsdayers for the top factions are doing so in order to distract from their own broken army. There are plenty of things that are way too strong. But noone is talking about them Meanwhile, I can't even buy a win with tyranids

[@aerka0s760]

Did your tables have sufficient terrains to hide, did you try to put more units in deep strike while protecting only a few units with Be'lakor ability?

[@chiledog24]

Yup lots of terrain my entire army was either in deepstrike or covered by belakor

[@jeffreywitty3088]

Chaos knights are just "op", low cost for war dogs (135 to 150 points each) and their ability to "all-round" are nearly overwhelming, Imperial knights less so (if facing Eldar). T10 with 12 wounds and a 3+/5+ save is frightening (pun)

[@WoWisdeadtome]

I haven't played 40k in probably a decade. I played Adepta Sororitas at the time, largely because they were essentially as good at shooting as space marines and still had the power armor crutch but at only 2/3 the cost. I didn't want to play space marines because literally EVERYONE plays space marines. Seriously a tourney list is an anti-marine list because if you play four games at least three will be against marines. My only other army is Drukhari, which also seem weak. Guess sitting out another edition won't matter.

[@erikstoner98]

New meta list is known, DG has a 28% winrate lol (General Jannis explains more)

[@D00M3R_MAVS]

no way, you put nids as "meh"? I think they're one of the coolest factions in 40k.

[@StrandsOfFate]

In years to come we will look back on 10th edition as a broken one. It's potential is there, but there are too many flaws in the core rules interactions and foundations.

[@Khorzho]

Gonna have someone come over to play this weekend. Will be a fun 9th ed. game.

[@Rhino_king1]

Death guard aren’t bad tbh you just need to be good

[@TheWhiskyDelta]

A key problem I feel is people are still mostly building 9th style armies; very small elite glass canon builds. But 10th rules and lethality changes I think requires larger base infantry forces than most people are prepared to run. If we take the bottom DG, there signature abilities for 10th of -1T and Lethal hits basically demands volume of fire to be good. But most armies are running barley 20 models total.

[@wenbenson143]

I 100% agree

[@homer7245]

thousand sons are definitely above necrons. literally one of the few factions that have the ability to wipe a necron warrior blob thats fully buffed around (like half your 1/3 of your arm) the amount of mortal wounds they pump out is insane

[@thetimebinder]

I like how no one can agree if Tau are good or bad.

[@Dre0oq]

I think they moved the skill floor up. Tau have some solid options but they're hard to play well. Any army that emphasizes mobility/positioning over raw power are harder to pilot.

[@michaelmaddox2536]

My beloved Blood Angels are shit now. :(

[@ruas4721]

I disagree for Custodes and Eldar. Custodes: in theory they have very good profiles, but the army has like zero anti-tank capabilities, vehicle heavy armies or in the worst case knights are like unplayable against. Also the objective game is realy bad in my opinion, the leadership is "bad" (for so few units) and there are so many automatical tests and bester scoring units in the game ... Eldar: The index is not the problem, but the interaction between Devastating wounds and fate dice. GW will fix this obvious error in no time and Eldar are done, maybe mid tier at best. Besides the mortal spam they have no good unit but the two Avatars and the Fire Prism. The best thing the rest of the army brings to the field is mobilety and many units not even that. If you look at units like Scorpions, they are just easily one of the worst 5% of units in the game and many other Eldar are the same. Only op because GW cant write rules.

[@thetimebinder]

Custodes can literally run a Knight.

[@thetimebinder]

I disagree with Aeldari being bad once Devastating wounds + Fate Dice gets fixed. The current skew list that is exploiting those rules is done, but that is the point. Also, just not using ruins with any windows utterly wrecks the Wraithkight version of the list. I've been doing just fine and I don't run a knight at all. Honestly, spamming fate dice into invulnerable saves has been way more busted.

[@williamevans8106]

Oddly enough, it appears that AdMech have about a 50% winrate, so it doesn't look (so far) that they are actually *that* bad.

[@weissraben4476]

Might be a spike still - it's literally one single data point - but people /did/ start saying that AdMech wasn't /that/ bad when actually on the table as soon as testing became possible (with indexes and points).

[@knotcho2715]

Also I’m noticing the more I learn about the game and watch all these YTers. They just go by what they “know” from what’s on paper.

[@ChimeraGames]

Was looking for this comment. It’s important to remember that most KZbinrs making these lists and giving their opinions on 10th have not played every army themselves. Go with your own experience and enjoy painting and playing what’s coolest to you!!!