Which is Better: Axis & Allies or Shogun? Board Game DEBATE SERIES

[@kartchner7]

Shogun all the way! By far the best of the game master series. Random set up, and unique army movement are my favorite two game functions. Different things to spend money that affects strategy at different stages of game. Plus the ninja!!

[@LegendaryTactics]

Agreed! And you can never go wrong with a ninja! What games of the series did you try?

[@kartchner7]

@@LegendaryTactics I own shogun, conquest of the empire, and axis and allies. I did play fortress America once that a friend had. I’m not a big fan of axis and Allies as I felt it was just playing the same game over and over. Conquest was a fun game but some spots were very difficult to win from, and some mechanics like roads never made much sense. Ships and catapults ruled.

[@sharebear421]

Axis and Allies the best of all time Imo

[@Aldaronification]

Just need to have a debate now on the other games from this series. “Fortress America”

[@LegendaryTactics]

I'm embarrassed to confess that I haven't played it. Even though I've been staring at the ads on my Axis & Allies box for years....

[@waynewhitfield409]

Had four game Axis & Allies, Samurai , Fortress America and Conquest of Empire ( which was my favourite ) Brings back great memories. For Axis & Allies I took and 4ft x8 ft sheet of paneling and draw a world map and that’s what we use for our games great times

[@Rangersly]

Well explored and critiqued guys! I've own and played both games and Shogun is an easy, easy win for me. First, it was much better balanced with clear rules right from the start. They never had to revisit the Shogun rules even when the game changed name. It was perfect as it is. Axis & Allies had to go through multiple rule revisions, and a lot of players will implement house rules to try to make the game more fair and interesting. Another huge factor is the replayability. The A&A set up is the same. Every. Single. Game. The strategy options are very limited with A&A. With Shogun, the set up is random, so you never know where you'll start, bringing much more creativity in strategy. Axis & Allies is more popular, but I would argue that to keep players interested, they have to bring out new expansions all the time because the basic game is not enough to keep the brand alive. After a few games playing both sides, games get stale and even frustrating after a while with A&A. I could play Shogun every week because every game is fresh and new.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, it's surprising that A&A remains the most popular of the two. Perhaps it has a more familiar theme?

[@Rangersly]

I think you got it. WWII history has a much broader appeal (especially in North America and Europe) than medieval Japan.@@LegendaryTactics

[@francb1634]

Shogun's popularity and staying power was probably tanked by going through 3 different names, 2 of which have since been taken over by other games.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yeah, that likely didn't help. It would be interesting to look up the sales figures from the mid-80s though! I'll bet Axis & Allies was the biggest hit, even from the get-go

[@LegendaryTactics]

RESULTS: At the moment (June 2) , Shogun has the edge with 12 votes, Axis and Allies has 10, and amazingly, a game that we didn't cover, Fortress America, has 3 votes. 1 vote for a draw.

[@FrancisFenderson]

You guys made me pull both of my boxes from the closet! It's been ages since I played either. A&A is definitely much more popular but Shogun is still the superior game for me. While the board may not look as appealing at first glance, that was a good design choice IMHO because of the way the game is set up. It's also much more replayable due to the randomness and strategic adjustments that you must make as you go. A&A games, over time, tend to flow into a sameness. That familiarity is not necessarily bad but it can feel stale sometimes. Thanks for doing this VS video. Very fun!

[@LegendaryTactics]

Thanks for watching! I think the game board in Shogun also reflects the Japanese aesthetic of simplicity as well

[@koala-py7uy]

12-sided die had existed for quite a while when this came out. I was rolling them in D&D well before this game was released. Great games though I own and have played both many times, Shogun hands down wins on components.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, I always loved rolling my different D&D dice! But even now, I can't think of too many games which use a 12 sided die, let alone a bucket of them...

[@hgman3920]

Don't forget Conquest of Empire when you discuss the MB Gamemaster series. It was the second game published in the series, coming out before Fortress America and Shogun

[@LegendaryTactics]

Wasn't there a pirate one as well? Broadsides and Boarding Parties, I think? I never knew anyone who tried any of the games outside of the "big 3"!

[@hgman3920]

I had a high school friend who had Conquest of Empire. We played a couple times but it wasn’t nearly as good as Shogun or A & A. I always wanted to play Broadsides and Boarding Parties (the pirate one), but it was almost impossible to find in stores so I never go the chance

[@SumerNivek]

Milton Bradley A&A...had some epic matches of that (along with Risk) during college in the late 90s. Never got to play Shogun, but remembering seeing it being played in the mid-90s at Origins in Columbus, Ohio and was floored by it.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, college was a perfect time for those loooong games of A & A! Hope you get to try Shogun sometime!

[@Aldaronification]

I love this format and I love the onscreen dynamic/ charisma. My vote goes to Axis and Allies. Very nostalgic game for me. In fact I first played this with my cousin and this is the game that got me hooked on more “complex” boardgames.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Your cousin sounds like he has great taste! Same for me. Without Axis and Allies, I would have a giant vacancy in my spare time. Thanks for checking it out.

[@andrewwalsh531]

I haven't played either but surely would if I had the group. It's great that you have had these games since you were kids, that is quite an accomplishment in these days of disposable everything! It looks like Nato even has the original bags the components came in, the plastic packaging, etc. keep up the good work....I call the debate a draw, how's that for diplomacy :)

[@LegendaryTactics]

A draw is perfectly acceptable (although I think Nato won) - from Nato

[@davegoodridge8352]

Those games were so fun

[@LegendaryTactics]

They are still fun! Break one of them out and see!

[@timvilleneuve7244]

Flying Fortress or the castle fortress, great comparison! I'm a WW2 history buff so my bias lies with A&A.

[@LegendaryTactics]

They are both great genes - I think that's why it makes for a great debate!

[@mertozdal8952]

Without a doubt, SHOGUN! ⚔️ I still own the game and kept it in pretty good condition. Swords dealing is amazingly thought. Just discovered your channel, keep it going, there is not many of us around 🤓

[@LegendaryTactics]

Thanks! We will do our best!

[@bahasainggeris7884]

Shogun for the win! When you paint the swords, coins, castles, castle bases, etc. the game really pops! Random set-up meant every game was very different despite player type. Axis and Allies was more popular because it was WWII. To this day, WWII has many more games dedicated to it than feudal Japan. For my money however, Shogun wins any day.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Agreed! I had never thought to paint the components (never been much of a miniatures gamer). It sounds intriguing and also a bit sacrilegious at the same time

[@christophneuschaeffer7489]

Funny, I also started painting the swords, coins, castles, the Ninja and the Ronin. But I still have all the way to go with the armies. But it really adds so much to the visuals of this great game. I already finished painting the units for Conquest of the Empire and Axis & Allies - they do look awesome. That keeps me painting until Shogun is finished too.

[@willIV9962]

We had A&A, FA, CotE, B&B, but never Shogun. It has always been on my to-do list to play. However, I've played so many A&A games I have to vote for it.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, A&A is far and away the most played, I think. How is B&B? I always wanted to try that one

[@willIV9962]

​@@LegendaryTacticsI have very fond memories of B&B. I still have pieces of the game from my youth. The ability to blow your enemy out of the water, and take mast, guns, crew off the deck was a fantastic feature. It's been over a decade since I last played, but as far as time commitment this was the shortest of all the Game Master series.

[@jeffmackey2740]

I mowed so many lawns to be able to buy one of these games in '86/'87. I was more enamored by the Shogun theme and aesthetics so went that way. And while I'm clearly biased, I think Shogun remains the superior game

[@LegendaryTactics]

That's great! Well-earned! Did you own more than just the two?

[@DRGames-dm2dz]

I think for this vs I have to lean towards Shogun, But if given a choice I would choose Fortress America, FA is Red Dawn meets Risk. I would love a tournament version where you take a series of games like the Gamemaster series and do a VS for every two to see who is on top :) Gamemaster series games A&A Shogun FA Broadsides and Boarding Parties, this one I think you guys would really like lol Conquest of the Empire Any chance to do a American Heritage game series VS video? Games in series Dogfight Broadside Skrimish Battlecry Hit the Beach

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, those are all great ideas! It's always a matter of too many games, too little time... But I'll see what we can do!

[@mightymickey8879]

Great video! Late to the party but hands down Shogun wins for me. While I grew up with A&A and only got my hands on my copy of Shogun (in this case Samurai Swords complete with the plastic swords) only recently, the gameplay is so much more varied. While you can attempt different strategies is A&A, there are really only a 1-2 standout strategies that come down to luck of the dice. The bidding mechanic of Shogun keeps every turn dynamic and also helps balance out resources as some can be lost due to overbids on ninja / turn order.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Absolutely! The only downside to Shogun/Samurai Swords is the fact that you need at least 3 committed players. And 5 is really ideal

[@brutalusgaming8809]

The latest version of Shogun is Ikusa (meaning war in Japanese) I love the game so much I forked out a small pile of money for an Unpunched copy. Having played A&A recently and then Shogun I can say Shogun is simply a better game. No arguments about who gets to play anything but Russia... and with the fast game rules it is 4 hours long for what is still a VERY satisfying experience.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Agreed (Nato here)! Such a good game, and it deserves to be just as popular as Axis & Allies. For some reason, it isn't...

[@robertmoffitt1336]

Fortress America got a reprint by Fantasy Flight Games some years back.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, I saw it at my friendly local game store and I didn't buy it for some reason.

[@TheSultan79]

I remember when I first saw this game axis and Allie’s as a teen back in the 90’s at some comic book store I had to have it so I went out and got a job for the summer and paid 75$ for my first ever copy and was my favorite game until a buddy of mine got me involved with gamesworkshop Warhammer fantasy and I have been wargaming ever since so I like axis and Allie’s a lot and play it from time to time

[@LegendaryTactics]

Nice! It truly is a great introduction to the hobby. Do you still play Warhammer?

[@gwydion2418]

Shogun had a release in-between the two mentioned in the video sometime in the mid 90's and it was titled Samurai Swords.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, and, if I remember correctly, they didn't include the little plastic swords to determine turn order... If that's the case, oh, the irony!

[@gwydion2418]

@@LegendaryTactics I own a copy of the Samurai Swords version and it does include the swords but not the little Styrofoam sword holders like Shogun had. (which I had owned long ago but lost along with a copy of Fortress America that I regret ever losing) As far as playing the game I would rather play a random game of Shogun than a game of Axis and Allies but both were great.

[@raygun6271]

Great idea for a video! Own both, enjoy both, but played A&A more due to other people's interest. If forced to pick I would choose A&A. Also, pleased to report that my Samurai Swords is in near mint condition...just lucky!

[@LegendaryTactics]

Wow! Mint condition! That'll be worth something! They are both great games - lots of memories associated with both!

[@BrashFink]

While A&A does have the history, the game has also had MASSIVE revisions, for example, the amount of spaces across USSR. There are so few spaces across Siberia that I have had games were Japan is actually in a position to cause serious 2 front problems for the Russians. When Shogun was re-released as Ikasu, it had basically no changes at all. That says a lot about that game.

[@billhackenbracht4708]

Awesome format. Keep up the great work!

[@LegendaryTactics]

Thank you!! More to come!

[@LegendaryTactics]

What game would you put Diplomacy up against in a debate?

[@billhackenbracht4708]

@@LegendaryTactics That’s a tough question. I’d consider Dune. And, thinking outside of the box, I’d consider a game like Container. But Dune and Diplomacy are two of the games to be published prior to 1980 that have continued to be “popular” through to today.

[@pyrotelekinesis7253]

My brain says A&A, but my heart says Shogun🥷

[@LegendaryTactics]

It's a classic battle, between heart and head

[@ebutler5202]

GameMaster Axis and Allies I think takes it. Samurai Swords (Shogun) I found a little to chaotic in a Risk sort of way. Conquest of the Empire was my second favorite of the series. Fortress America games always started fun but the end game would really start to drag. I would however play ANY of the four if they hit the table... over many more modern games.

[@LegendaryTactics]

That's great! I don't know if I even had the opportunity to acquire Conquest of the Empire - I'm not sure if it was as broadly distributed.

[@markm3705]

A&A (aka Risk on steroids) stole my gaming heart as a teenager. Love the strategy and challenges when playing both sides. Best as 2-players, not a good multi player game, too much downtime. Then came Shogun, a fantastic multi player game, though like Risk, don't make too many enemies, they'll gang up on you and you're a spectator for hours. OVERALL I couldn't live without owning A&A, but could go without playing Shotgun... if I absolutely had to

[@LegendaryTactics]

They are both great games. I, Nato, think that Shogun is the better game overall, but you can't argue with A&A's success

[@Rhone007]

Both are excellent, but for re-playability Shogun wins. No static set up each time, therefore not predictable. Predictability can lead to boredom imo.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Not only that, but alliances shift around during the game as well, making it more dynamic

[@jumpmaster82nd.]

Literally wore out the boards on each game! A&A, Shogun, Conquest and Fortress America...then kids came along...now playing A&A with 2 grandsons!!!

[@LegendaryTactics]

That's great! The adventures continue! Have they tried the other ones?

[@jumpmaster82nd.]

@@LegendaryTactics they're still a tad young. A&A often ends up as a little WWII playset after a bit. But hey, its the introduction to gaming that satisfies me!

[@jeromyfisher297]

A&A all the way! Still have my copy and the app on my phone

[@LegendaryTactics]

Nice! And what about Fortress America?

[@derek_davidson]

Dune vs Cosmic Encounter

[@LegendaryTactics]

Great idea! We'll have to do that one!

[@standriggs2420]

I like Shogun for the balance, everyone is on equal footing and each game is different. It also accommodates different numbers of players well. The main strategy was to knock off opposing generals, since that would cripple your opponent. Changing the turn order each round made for interesting situations. Also, you alluded to it, but negotiation skill was really the key to this game. Making and breaking alliances really determined the outcome more than on the board strategy. You could never defend everywhere with just 3 generals, so there was always a back door that needed to be covered by an ally (or stabbed in the back). Plays like a much better, richer version of Risk, where anyone can win. Fortress America always seemed to play out like the same game every time. America just gets pummeled for the first few rounds, but if they can hang on long enough they always win in the end. And the one vs. many meant it was really just a two player game. I never saw much room for strategic variations. A&A is also fundamentally a 2 player game, but each country is unique and play very differently. It can play out similarly each time, but the best part of A&A are the major strategy variations like Kill Japan First, or ignore Russia and take London, or see if Japan can take Moscow, or the myriad of other crazy ideas. The historical context and global scale I think are major reasons for its enduring appeal. I know I'm late to the party, but since I still own FA and Shogun, and played A&A a bunch back in college, I felt obligated to comment!

[@keithr9640]

Love both but I haven’t played Shogun in decades and I played A&A last month. Lol Gotta pick A&A though this video has me itching to play Shogun again.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Your pick may change after trying Shogun again ... It's so good! But then again, so is A&A!

[@paulgibbons2320]

They both scratch a different itch. Both great games. I think I slightly lean towards Shogun. The D12 mechanic makes it feel a little more grown up. Its a very well balanced and tactical game. Allies an axis did great job of giving all the factions a unique challenge. Which is good but can be fustrating.

[@LegendaryTactics]

I agree with your analysis. Your comment that the D12s feel more "grown up" is interesting - never thought of that before!

[@paulgibbons2320]

@@LegendaryTactics just find D6 can be limiting.

[@gregoryeverett9811]

I have the Game Master version of Axis and Allies. I have played Shogun and Fortress America. Of the three, It would be hard for me to pick either A&A or FA as my favorite. I realy enjoyed both. Shogun for me is deffinitly in last place, I have won A&A plying the Axis, though you are correct in that the Axis is the harder faction to play.

[@KabukiKid]

Yeah, the better comparison for me would be Axis & Allies and Fortress America, because they were my absolute favorites from that line. All of the games were a blast, though.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, if the Axis doesn't win quickly, it's going to be really tough. I really have to play Fortress America sometime!

[@LegendaryTactics]

Did you have a chance to play all of them?

[@SZRLM]

A&A is instantly recognizable, especially in the west as it's a direct reference to a point in our history. Shogun/Samurai Swords/Ikusa is foreign. Add to that the name changes not for marketing reasons, but legal reasons. Shogun is a very fun game with more strategy and thinking on your feet and the armies also offer an alternative lose condition with if you lose all 3 armies you lose the game.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, it's a tough call. I really wish Shogun had been more popular as it really is a great game. It just didn't catch people's imagination as much as A&A, and perhaps for the reasons you mentioned.

[@96632777]

I grew up playing both games, But I have to lean towards Axis and Allies. Fond memories of staying up late playing against my older brother.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, it seems like Axis & Allies is winning the nostalgia war... I'm glad you have such great memories!

[@delaneyalusa]

I have Shogun as Samurai Swords which was the 2nd release by MB. I have the Original Axis and Allies with an expansion that came out adding in Destroyers and other pieces. Samurai Swords had the swords for bidding.

[@LegendaryTactics]

You got to have those swords! I'm curious about the Axis and allies expansion. I'm not familiar with that

[@delaneyalusa]

@@LegendaryTactics I will look at my copy latter and see if I can find who made it. We played an option rule for Axis and Allies. We had 3 boards. The main board was a blown up version we had on plywood. The Allies had a board on a separate table, and axis had another on another table. It was for Fog of War. You did not know what the enemy had if you attacked. You would both move your pieces to the territory and battle it out like the normal game. If you wanted to recon, you could fly a fighter or bomber over, risk is being shot down. If you succeed, you had 5 or 10 seconds to look at their board and remember everything to report back to your team.

[@Mark-hp2ko]

Shogun wins my vote. But among the MB Gamemaster series, my vote for fave game goes to Fortress America.

[@LegendaryTactics]

That's the one I haven't played - it's always been harder to get than the other two, in my experience. Did you try the reprint from a few years ago?

[@gemini7490]

I play both and i am owner from both. The mechanic from A&A wins, i loved this game. And i am happy that my A&A group still exists. And we still play. Shogun i think is the beginner friendlier game. Its a good game, but A&A survived the time better as Shogun, FA and Conquest, special with all the other versions. Greetings from Austria

[@LegendaryTactics]

Greetings to you from Canada! It's a good thing that you are still able to get this game to the table regularly!

[@AreMac64]

Need to break the tie. Shogun. I still have my copy, even the swords. Mine have liquid white-out on the diamonds so you can actually tell draw rank order. Random setups, bidding, leveling up and Ninja! I wish the provinces were more colorful rather than looking like a rice paper map. But the Japanese are known for simplicity, so not out of theme.

[@LegendaryTactics]

True! I like the whiteout idea -: that would certainly help telling those swords apart!

[@ColasTeam]

I think I'll have to go with Shogun! It just seems like a more modern game with more modern design.

[@LegendaryTactics]

I agree - it holds up quite well! Do you own a copy?

[@kevinbertram4828]

Fortress America is hands down the best in the series. WOLVERINES!!!

[@LegendaryTactics]

Red Dawn was one of those movies that really caught my imagination as a kid. Does the game feel like the film?

[@rjung6309]

I love both games. A&A has a static setup so you can dream up opening moves. Shogun is more random and every gameplay is different. I have the Ikusa version and looking at getting either A&A 1942 2nd edition or the A&A anniversary edition reprint coming June 2024. Praise the dice gods. 😂

[@90rightangle2]

Shogun. A&A seemed too luck dependent and lacked seriousness, particularly for someone who cut his teeth on hex-and-counter wargames. Shogun’s random set up and social component was refreshing for a beer-and-pretzels game.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, I think the diplomacy in the game really made it shine. What about Fortress America?

[@90rightangle2]

@@LegendaryTactics I never played FA. So, thanks for making it A&A vs. Shogun, and not the best of the three.

[@hgman3920]

Definitely Shogun! I was in high school when these games came out, and as I remember it was mainly the annoying WWII Wehraboos who played Axis and Allies, which was a huge turnoff. I still have a copy of Samurai Swords in shrink which I bought in the early 90s - I's still waiting on the right time to crack the shrink and play it once again

[@LegendaryTactics]

Wow! I wonder what that would be worth? Have you ever checked?

[@aaronsnyder310]

Although I still love A&A, Shogun is better overall. The random set up gives it better replayability. These days A&A gets a replayability shot in the arm, from the addition of new units. These have to be taken from other games, or bought from HBG though. To me that keeps A&A alive and kicking at the table. I had Fortress America back in the day. I liked it but not as much as A&A.

[@LegendaryTactics]

I have never tried Fortress America, although the concept was cool

[@aaronsnyder310]

The cards mixed things up a bit, so I'd call it a worthy companion to my original A&A game.

[@Stumptonian1]

Shogun for sure. Much more balanced. A&A really only worked with 5 players so the Allies had to negotiate with each other about 'lend-lease' to help Russia or Britain. Shogun (or Samurai or Ikusa) could work well with fewer players.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Agreed, although it is best with 4 or 5 - with 3, there was always one player that was ganged up on, in my experience. More players creates a more fluid situation. And A&A could be played with 2 players, while Shogun could not...

[@JustanOlGuy]

I had A & A but always wanted Shogoon 🌎.

[@LegendaryTactics]

It's so good. I always wanted Fortress America

[@LH_Thiele]

I love A&A but as Axis you can‘t win because there are some important moves and decisions from the Allies in the first two rounds and then they will win the game 99% of the time. Axis can then only win because of bad luck on the other side.

[@LegendaryTactics]

I don't know if it's that extreme, but certainly the Axis needs to win quickly, otherwise, the combined economic might of the Allies will win the day, just as it was in history. There's

[@LH_Thiele]

@@LegendaryTactics yes you are right. The axis has to win quickly. Some moves and decisions I‘m talking about are the following: - Factory in South Africa (-additionally/alternatively a Factory in India) - Great Britain must research heavy bombers - The Soviet Union stonewalling in Caucasus and Karelia against germany. No attacks to germany, just stonewalling. Everytime we play the SU Player spent all the money for infantry/troops.

[@mikefontana3324]

I had all three Shogun, A&A and Fortress America. I played all of them a lot and my favorite was always Shogun, followed by Fortress America and finally A&A. There were reprints of Shogun and Fortress America at the time. Shogun got renamed to Samurai Swords, probably due to naming conflicts with James Clavell's book and the artwork on the Fortress America got modified slightly to change the Latin army general to look less like Sadam Hussain. I still have my copies of Shogun/Samurai Swords but sold off my Fortress America. I did pick up the reprint that FFG did awhile back ago though. Also I believe Fortress America was inspired by an old SPI game of the same name as it was a chit based invasion of America. I didn't have that one but was heavy into SPI wargames in the 70's and 80's

[@LegendaryTactics]

That's interesting about the SPI Game... I'll have to look that one up. How was the reprint of it?

[@mikefontana3324]

@@LegendaryTactics I misremembered the title but the SPI game is called Invasion America. Guess I'm getting a bit old. As far as the FFG version, it's mostly the same with some tweaks. Invaders get some cards to use instead of just America. There's a 10 round limit for the invaders to achieve its victory condition otherwise America wins. This generally helped in the end game when either side is in a slow decline, but not willing to give up. The units had new sculpts and were very nice. I think the more controversial issue is the custom dice. They still use the d6, d8. and d10 but they have custom icons instead of being purely numeric. It didn't really bother me and the generated outcomes were the same. Alas this version is out of print as well and getting pricey on the second hand market.

[@ericsnyder3543]

Shogun was by far the best of the 5 game series for balance and replayability. A&A was the most popular, and continues to be so. But there are limited choices in the first turn or two that dictate much of what will follow. Fortress America was pretty good and, imo, under valued as a solid game. Conquest of Empire was interesting, but when playing with 6 players, the 6th player was at a real disadvantage given how the turn structure works. And finally, Broadsides and Boarding Parties was fun, but the darn ship had to be built/taken apart each time you played to fit in back into the box, and that is never a good thing over many plays. Btw, still owned and in mint condition, and yes, I have the ninja too.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Nice! I always wanted to try Broadsides and Boarding Parties - it looked so cool! Was it a fun game?

[@ericsnyder3543]

@@LegendaryTactics It has been a great many years since I last played a game of B & B, but as I recall, it was fun. That being said, I am, at heart, a wargamer, and I enjoy a good many strategy games.

[@skywiseskchan]

Shogun all the way. Well, not all the way, the board for A&A is nicer but Shogun generally wins all over the rest.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Agreed! The board for A&A is actually quite nice. I like the color scheme.

[@LoneWolf-zc7nw]

Axis & Allies all the way! Axis & Allies is ultimate world war 2 game.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Have you heard of War Room? It's apparently the Axis and Allies game that Larry Harris always meant to make. It's a lot bigger, but it's apparently very cool, and might qualify as the ultimate World War II game...

[@jefflindell7657]

I still own all three, A&A, Shogun and Fortress America. Of the two in the video A&A gets the nod, but FA wins a three game showdown. Wasn’t there a fantasy version in that big box genre??

[@KabukiKid]

There wasn't ever a fantasy one. I would have loved that, though! :-D The GameMaster series included, Axis & Allies, Shogun (aka Samurai Swords later renamed to Ikusa), Fortress America, Broadsides and Boarding Parties, and Conquest of the Empire.

[@LegendaryTactics]

KabukiKid beat me to it, there was no fantasy one. It's a bit surprising, given how big fantasy games were at that time.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Did you get a chance to try them all?

[@eviltwin2322]

For me, Shogun wins on legacy alone. It was adapted for the PC and spawned the Total War franchise.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, I can see that. Shogun is such a great game!

[@zaynevanday142]

Supremacy was an awesome game ❤❤❤

[@Firefly-101]

Shogun wins for me. There are too many unique pieces and items, but the map on A&A was better. The rules are better with more complicated options that don't exist in A&A. I really thought he was joking when he said they all look the same, Japan only had Infantry and cavalry back then? Simple answer why you don't see Shogun like you do A&A is because Japan is a niche theme, most Americans are not interested in Japanese history whereas A&A is WW2 and all Americans and Europeans were educated about the war and the history for the said Nations.

[@LegendaryTactics]

I think he meant that the units in Shogun are all soldiers, whereas A&A has very distinctive things like bombers, tanks and battleships, which make it seem like there is more variety.

[@tmon6219]

Shogun!

[@LegendaryTactics]

Agreed! (This is Nato) Did you own any of the others?

[@tmon6219]

@@LegendaryTactics No just played!

[@JimEwing516]

I like both games but would have to vote for Axis & Allies for it's relevance to recent history, and the number of hours spent playing. there is a rare and little known fourth game in the series called Broadsides & Boarding Parties.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, I have heard of Broadsides & Boarding Parties - have you tried it? What do you think?

[@JimEwing516]

@@LegendaryTactics I occasionally think of trying to snag a copy, but it has been a collector's item for at least 30 years or so. It must have been one of the less popular games in the Gamemaster series. It looks nifty, though.

[@GPlewright]

In my opinion Axis & Allies is really a two player game while Shogun/Ikusa is a true all on all multiplayer.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, although certainly on the Allied side it was interesting to try to get every Nation on the same page

[@man-yp1gb]

Everybody wins

[@LegendaryTactics]

Our egos will not allow it :)

[@KabukiKid]

I adore both games, but if I am forced to pick, it is A&A. The newest version, Axis & Allies Anniversary, is truly the superior version of the game now, though. I believe you may have left out the information that Shogun had to be renamed to Samurai Swords because of a FASA game based on the James Clavell Shogun novel. That game came out in 1983. The MB Shogun came out in 1986, so they were the ones that had to change. Also, it is the case that the game was reprinted again in 2011 from Avalon Hill and, once again retitled... now to Ikusa. Yeah, they removed the plastic swords, which is a sin... but it did replace the Styrofoam screen bases with nice plastic ones, at least. If anyone is seeking copies of Shogun, always ask the seller if the ninja piece is still there. That piece is almost ALWAYS missing from second-hand copies.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Ha ha, great advice! I have a card game named Shogun as well, based on the Clavell novel - perhaps that's the one? I had forgotten about Samurai Swords (not the best name). Thanks for the great comment!

[@KabukiKid]

@@LegendaryTactics I don't thing that sounds like the same game... the FASA one had a board and counters and all that.

[@lynnmoore3684]

Shogun has more replay value.

[@LegendaryTactics]

Agreed! Although I probably played Axis and Allies more because you can play with 2 players. Shogun requires at least 3 and is best with 5, which can be hard to arrange.

[@kennethhendrickson2865]

Shogun. Better game

[@LegendaryTactics]

Agreed! - from Nato

[@christophneuschaeffer7489]

Axis & Allies, Shogun and Conquest of the Empire are all great games. I guess Axis & Allies stole the show over the decades because World War II is still present in so many aspects while Medieval Japan and Ancient Rome are subjects for history buffs with a special attention to these two periods. As I own all three games I can acknowledge that Shogun can be played with the out of the box rules right as they are. There are only very few alternative or house rules around. That tells you something about the game play and balance of this game. In this respect it is the best game of the series. Conquest of the Empire suffers from two bad rules: catapults and inflation. Catapults are way too strong with their combat advantage. And inflation should start the round after the first player crossed the bar and only if his/her income stays above that level. If it kicks in immediately, the next players are seriously hampered. When Eagle Games published the game it contained two rule sets: the Classic and an advanced rule set. I never played the latter, but the classic rule set contained many loop holes and questions. As I love this game so much, I took the best from both versions and added two units: auxiliaries and pretorians. With these changes it is a very balanced and fun game to play. Well, Axis & Allies has become a family of games, some of them good, others not so much. I like the tactical games such as Guadalcanal and D-Day, but they have a completely different game play and set-up. From the strategy games I like the Anniversary Edition best and it is the one with the highest prices on eBay. The Global 1940 game is a mind boggling experience, but it takes many hours to play. And there is a reason why there are so many house rules around in order to balance the game or to add some historical flavor to it. Based on history, Axis & Allies is the clear winner, based on game play I would vote for Shogun, because the drawing of the swords for turn order, the Ninja and above all the Ronin are so cool. Conquest of the Empire has a lot of potential if you are ready to think and play with rules that are not contained in the original version. And on a final note: I love all these games so much that I started to hand paint all game figures and components and turned them into small pieces of art. The amount of detail in all three games is really amazing - at least if you play one of the later editions of Axis & Allies where all countries were provided with historical sculpts instead of the generic ones of the classic edition of Axis & Allies you guys are talking about.

[@guyhemmings5793]

Is the game shogun, ( i had it as a teenager but lost it) stull available somewhere new or used?

[@LegendaryTactics]

I don't know if the original is hard to find, but you could try looking under "Samurai Swords" or "Ikusa", which are its later iterations

[@CBs_Bill_from_Montana]

Axis ands Allie’s is clearly better because there are 40 variations of it. They still release new ones every few years. However, Shogun is really fun and looks really cool too. We broke all of our swords almost immediately. Fortress America was fun too.

[@victorfinberg8595]

and i declare ... you both win shogun is more of a niche game ... but spicier i remember one guy who always said "ninja, ninja, big and furry, come out of there with your paws in the air" ... because the ninja can be strong or weak ? glory days

[@LegendaryTactics]

Ha ha, love that rhyme! Glad Shogun is #1 (along with Axis & Allies!)

[@victorfinberg8595]

axis and allies has been massively expanded by fans into the computer version tripleA. no nostalgia there, it is current

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, I have the computer version, and it is well done

[@harveydents]

aweome vid! I still have both of those games and still play them! I also have Fortress America! WISH i had broadswords and boarding parties! Thats like the holy grail of gamemasters!

[@LegendaryTactics]

Yes, I am surprised that it didn't do better than it did. It looked cool and has a great theme - but I never saw it for sale anywhere!