Which is Better, Class Systems or Skill Systems?

[@Raukodraug]

The nice thing with skills is that, as designer, you can provide example skill loadouts that evoke the same archetypes as you might see in a class/level based system. This helps new players build characters more easily and makes characters more adaptable to specific genre needs.

[@Ramschat]

IMHO, Captain America is a straight paladin (with the shield mastery feat) His whole deal is that he fights for his convictions. He is charismatic, inspiring, a protector and he has a strong moral compass that he adheres to. He makes the people around him better (paladin aura's) and he acts as the party face

[@datafogao]

I think he multiclasses on battlemaster fighter, his shield game is too good

[@matthewconstantine5015]

I've always preferred skill based games VS class/level based systems. It just made sense to me that if you wanted to get better at something, you do that thing, as opposed to "I killed my 18th goblin, so now I can suddenly cast a new spell." I think starting with skill based systems is easier than transitioning from level based to skill based. I've found folks who started with D&D have often struggled when moving over to Call of Cthulhu or other skill based games.

[@theConcernedWyvern]

When I played vampire the masquerade after a while of D&D, I fell in love with skill based systems. I don't like how restrictive levels and classes are. I can play with tropes, but I feel like I can't go beyond those tropes to make more realistic and deep characters.

[@randomusernameCallin]

My problem with Call of Cthulhu's improvement system is in encourages the players to be pigeonhole or to try everything they can. I also do not like unrealistic the method is. Use the skill and get lucky or just practice during you character down time. That not how people improve. How a person does improve is more along: "I saw a waste in my spell work during real combat and by 18 goblin kill I understood how to improve my casting allowing me to casat another spell a day. Diromng that time I also watch the Rouge find hand holds I never would thinking about. I also watch the Bard seduce the princess...and the dragon."

[@JKevinCarrier]

In my experience, there are two types of players: 1) The type for whom character creation is an important part of the game...maybe the MOST important part. They want a large degree of control over every aspect of the character, either for min/maxing purposes, or because they have a very specific creative vision. These folks love skill-based systems, and will spend hours tweaking the numbers until they get things just right. 2) My type, the lazy and impatient players. For us, character creation is an annoying chore that we want to get through as quickly as possible so we can get to the actual game. Class-based systems are our jam, because we can just grab a concept "off the shelf" and run with it, with a pretty good idea of what it can do, and be confident that the character will be reasonably balanced and functional within the game. Even better, give me a list of pre-generated characters, and I'll grab one of those and be happy as a clam. For me, the creativity is in what you do with the character once the game starts, not the numbers you crunched ahead of time.

[@justinsellers9402]

#1 here. I want to see my vision of a rogue, so my rogue, not the dev's vision of a rogue, when I play the character.

[@TheSavageGoose]

My favorite system, Savage Worlds, is a skill based system. The way they help with this for the ease of use piece you mentioned with classes is that almost every setting has Archetype characters created for player use so they can have a starting point.

[@generalsci3831]

I feel like asking this question is trying to tell the people that enjoy the opposite end that they're 'wrong'. I kinda get into moods for one, the other, or other stuff (like Kult). Whatever suits the narrative and attitude of the intended game.

[@dungeondr]

I've recently been feeling inspired by skill map systems, such as the sphere grid in Final Fantasy X. It's an interesting way to effectively group class features, while also providing ways for characters to organically diverge into other class fantasies.

[@SergioLeRoux]

It's interesting that playbooks in Blades in the Dark don't actually limit your choices, anyone can put dots into any action rating, and any ability from any Playbook (called a "veteran ability"), and you can obtain any loadout objects by focusing on projects.

[@nevisysbryd7450]

I am creating a system, too-also not yet playtested, though going to soon. Individually leveling skills. Each level nets another feat and every few increases the roll modifier of the skills to open up higher-tier abilities. A friend described it as 'build-a-class workshop.'

[@Parker8752]

One thing I like about Call of Cthulhu and a few other games based on the Basic Roleplaying system is that you choose a career or a profession or the like, and that gives you a small collection of skills where you spend the lion's share of your points. In Basic Roleplaying, for example, you choose a profession which gives you ten skills, and then you spread 250 points between those ten skills. Just giving them 25 each is perfectly reasonable. Then you get INT * 10 additional points to spread through any skills you might want. This lets you have characters who have niches but still allows them to improve.

[@geoffreyperrin4347]

"I'm still a long way away from play testing this thing" on a smaller scale l, as soon as you have the minimum to test some core ideas start play testing with friends ASAP

[@kelmirosue3251]

That's what I plan to do with my system as well. Once I get the basic rules down of how to play the game and at least some ability features I want I plan to go down that route

[@ShadowEclipex]

I am working on a TTRPG system that is more skill based leaning with a minor class system to help give direction for players to build around. Still in very early testing though, so probably will change a lot as time goes on. The curent version of classes is pretty much a set of abilities for the characters to start out with, but so far has no barings or limitations on the skills they can take. (Skill limitations more come from the races/species options I have) I don't have it implanted yet, but I want to make powered up tiers to the classes, maybe a skill tree, so players have can feel like their classes are improving, but most of the character growth will be through skills.

[@elijahelizalde4308]

Deadlands Classic, skill based, and has some of the most unique and thematic rules for any tabletop system I've ever played

[@thetruefushicho]

I just wanted to say that I appreciate you guys using Pathfinder 2e as the visual example of a class-based game instead of D&D.

[@TalesFromElsewhereGames]

Oooh Charles is workin' on his own TTRPG? That's exciting - would love to talk shop with you guys at some point about that!

[@WhatisTableTop]

@@TalesFromElsewhereGames Absolutely, send us an email and we can talk about it!

[@OMGSAMCOPSEY]

Theory crafting an rpg myself, the perfect rpg in my mind has a mix of both. Although classes can be restricting when it comes to character design theyre also a great tool for balance. It makes it far harder to build an incredibly weak character or a broken character. Im not saying skill based cant be done right but when its done wrong it looks like skyrim where everyone ends up playing sneak archers. What im writing attempts to offer talents on most level ups, with lots of those talents being level up-able. At levels 2 and 3 "Take a beginner talent or level up a talent you have to intermediate level" Levels 5-6 "Take an intermediate talent or lower, or level up a talent you have to champion level" etc Theres a class progression on top of this so you can feel like A Sage or Alchemist throughout instead of being "im a skilled guy" Also Class specific talents and Species specific talents available as well as a talent pool which everyone has access to. Im trying to offer the ability to create unique versions of Brute, Scoundrel, or Wizard etc, without relying heavily on multiclassing.

[@Xhalo1183]

The benefit to class based systems is simplicity and balance. You know that whatever you pick you will be able to do something in every pillar of play and when it is time to level up it is easy to do. The benefit to skill systems is that you can more easily create the type of character you want, however, you can also create characters who will have absolutely nothing to do in some pillars of play because they didn't think about what to do during that pillar. There is also no clear time to stop and advance. I know one person who never advanced past character creation stats during a skills game because she didn't know how. We didn't find out until about 75% through the campaign. Had one guy that was completely useless in combat outside of drawing enemy fire for the first round. Put all of his points in social skills so he got their attention but no actual dodge or soak to speak of so he went down in the first round.

[@theConcernedWyvern]

Skill systems are best with a lot of communication and experienced players. Classes are great for getting people into the ttrpg space and for good, quick fun, in my opinion. Im working on my own system which is skill-based, since I often feel pigeon-holed by classes. I've had the exact same issue you described with class based systems. I played a very social class which turned out to not have much combat viability (the class was viable but the subclass i had wasnt great for it). I had no idea we would be doing mostly combat and assumed the campaign would be a balance between all three pillars. We spent most of our time in the middle of a jungle, with zero social opportunities after the introductory quest. These seem more like communitication issues than problems with the systems. I do think that skill based systems need better built in advancement triggers, as sometimes you can end up with a ton of points you don't know how to spend.

[@radfoxuk8113]

In video games I prefer a mix of both, but I feel a class system is better in less controlled environments, like TTRPGs as it helps guide players in their actions, helps them with the RP, but it should NEVER be used to prevent a player from attempting an action. Like how most player rulebooks for TTRPGs should be used as guidelines, and not laws, I always think of the Pirates of the Caribbean, the first one, when the female lead uses parley to get on the ship.

[@radfoxuk8113]

I really love the idea of a healer assassin, that uses their healing to give their targets tumors, clot induced heart aneurysms, or just cancer, cause no one would expect it, but subverting the healing ability to create deadly growths, is a terrifying use of healing abilities. Another being the torteror healer. Is that how healers should work, no, and the rulebooks often don't allow for this, but that's why they are more guidelines, it should always be up to the DM/GM to allow or disallow these player choices. Rules lawyers are so annoying to me, lol.

[@radfoxuk8113]

I view the skill tagging system in the early Fallouts as a form of class system mixed with skill system, as it allows a player to focus on a specific skill set. I'd say a TTRPG system that uses skills, and tagging a few skills, as the base, allowing a player to improve those skills faster than the others, and the skills you tag give you the class, would be very interesting.

[@dallassukerkin6878]

Skill Based systems have a tendency towards encouraging min-maxing and in the end lead to every character being the same by dint of player direction towards the most efficient. Class Based systems put all of that to one side and foster the players interest in making the character a *character* rather than a medium for DPS. I've played both a *lot* over nearly fifty years and, for table-top, pen and paper, RPG's, class based is much the preferred option for having creative fun rather than doing the most damage. Min-maxing has always been an unwelcome part of roleplaying and Skill Based systems encourage it. They either suck the life out the story telling by turning characters into the 'robot' expressions of the number system in the game or they simply become uninteresting - RuneQuest suffered from that a lot as the system seemed good at first glance but the combats became interminable. An exception to this might be Call of Cthulhu as, unless the whole group conspired to make it so, you couldn't DPS your way out of trouble. The big downside with that game is that *everyone* goes crazy in the end ... or gets chomped.

[@spiralvex2686]

As someone who has had to play a lot of Pathfinder and DND 5e in the last ten years I have had a completely different experience. Everyone in my 5e games who has even a shred of CHA dips warlock hexblade. Every fighter or archer takes the GWM, sharpshooter and crossbow expert feats. As the new subclasses in DND 5e dropped I'd stop see a lot of phb, options being picked as everyone rushed the busted options in xanathar's guide. In my mythras and Runequest games there's always been a decent spread of abilities, concepts and weapons chosen.

[@dallassukerkin6878]

@@spiralvex2686 Good points that I think show there has been a shift in the general mindset of a lot of players to be more like that of computer gamers rather than the improvised storytellers that we used to be. That's not necessarily 'bad' I suppose but it's not the sort of gaming I am interested in myself when sitting around a table with a group of my friends. Of course, as the scythe of time is always at work, that friend group has shrunk a lot over the decades, so we couldn't put a party together these days :(

[@ethangnasher3848]

I think a job system could work, you could have maybe up to three different active jobs but these only gain points when performing on their element, and not talking just about the typical barbarian, rogue, wizard stuff, i'm talking about chefs, alchemists, hunters, sailors and whatnot. You gain points you could spend on skills of these jobs and they're kept even when they're not on your active list, so you can have characters that grow and change, because i'm sure there's barbarians whom become knights or rogues that want to become a wizard and whatever else you can think.

[@amyloriley]

Classes can be seen as templates for skill-based systems. Like, a class being a pregenerated list of skills you pick up each level. As someone else said, multiclassing makes it able to make it become more skill-like. But let's also take it in another direction: classes give access to more synergistic skills meant to be played together; classes can offer unique skills that should never be combined with other unique skills, and classes can offer more weird game mechanics. 1. Synergistic skills I look at League of Legends (or any DotA game). You've got a character with 4 main abilities, more with so-called spells and potions, but let's ignore that for now. Taking my main as an example, Nami-a buffer/controller. Ability 1: Deal damage to enemies in a small targeted area and stuns every enemy inside. Has a delay between cast and effect, meaning smart enemies can disengage if they react quickly. Allies in the area are safe. Ability 2: Chain Lightning/Heal. Heal an ally, damage a nearby enemy for less, heal a second nearby ally for even less. Or damage an enemy, heal a nearby ally for less, damage a second nearby enemy for even less. Ability 3: Buff an ally, making their next three attacks deal more damage. Ability 4: In a wide line, slow down all enemies and deal big damage. Long cooldown. Passive: Increase the movement speed of allies targeted by these four abilities. Playing Nami is not a matter of picking the right abilities (though that is still partly a thing, with so-called spells and potions, but let's ignore that for now), but it becomes "How can I master playing with just these four abilities? There are combos. Do abilty 4, slowing down enemies, follow up with ability 1, making them unable to avoid the delayed effect due to being slowed down. ...Or should you wait for using abilities to increase movement speed of your allies? Timing is important after all. This tight set of abilities could not be made in a general skill system, in which everything should work with everything. I'm also thinking of MMORPGs here. A Frost Mage in WoW freezing enemies, then shattering the ice for massive crit damage. The Mistweaver monk using channeled over-time heals, then putting other heals and effects in that channel making them instant-cast. The minigame becomes to know who to target with the channeled heal, and when to skip the channeled heal and just heal normally with more flexibility in targets. 2. But back to tabletop Pathfinder 2e offers multiclassing in a different way. You pick your class, and you gain all your class features front-loaded at the first few levels. When you multiclass however, you don't access these features until much later, if at all. If you multiclass into a rogue, you can only pick up Sneak attack at level 4, and it only deals 1d4 damage at that. While true Rogues have a Sneak attack that's way more powerful, even at level 1. Same with multiclassing into Wizard. You'll only pick up two cantrips at multiclass level 2, that's it. No leveled spells for you. And at level 4, you could gain just one 1st-level wizard spell. That is, you pick between a 1st-level spell OR a spell school ability. But not both. In the end, Pathfinder 2e offers a class-based system, you have unique abilities from your class, and you can pick up a minor extras multiclassing. But it's mostly dedicated to playing just one class, and doing it well. 3. 13th Age and Meta Mage's Pretzels RPG Class-based systems allow the classes to be more distinct than just getting skills from a pool containing all skills. It can get weird. And that's okay, because it doesn't have to be balanced to work together with abilities of other classes. 13th Age offers a Fighter, who rolls a d20 to attack and then chooses their abilities after they know they hit or miss. 13th Age offers a Chaos Mage, whose player picks gems or beads from a bag and casts random spells based on the color of the gem or bead. 13th Age offers a Fateweaver, who, like the auto-hit Magic Missile spell, doesn't roll dice at all. Not for attack and not for damage. They can pass on doing damage for doing more damage next turn. They do have defensive spells such as "say a positive integer number. When you next are dealt that much damage or more, prevent damage equal to your number." Say a number too high, and an enemy never rolls damage high enough to reach your number, making your spell worthless. Say a number too low, and you block too little damage. But you never roll. And you could never do these things in a system in which every ability could potentially be used by anyone. Meta Mage's Pretzel RPG goes even further, offering 30-something classes each with their own unique mechanics. One class uses poker cards, another uses Fate Dice, another class uses a dice pool containing a d4, d6, d8, d10, and d12. Another class rolls 5d6 and hopes for at least a single 6. Another class uses differently colored dice. Another class uses coin flipping. Another class uses ... ------ Then of course, you still have systems such as Lasers and Feelings, or Honey Heist. In Honey Heist, every player has two stats: Bear, and Criminal. Then players make Bear and Criminal skill checks, becoming more Bear or more Criminial on a failed and successful skill checks. They lose the game if they are ever fully Bear or fully Criminal. In these kinds of games, the concept of skill systems or class systems are not in the least bit a thing. I'm just presenting it here to offer an alternative perspective. Not every rpg should be put in either of these two categories after all.

[@randomusernameCallin]

I also like class since many will allow you to boost skills that not uuse much. While in Call of Cthulhu you need to use the skill to have a chance to improve it or use your down time.

[@spiralvex2686]

That part about not being able to synergize skills and abilities is really incorrect. Mutliclassing can give more options usually at the cost of gimping your progression in several areas and taking longer to pay off and may not even be stronger than someone who mono-classed a better class. And in a skill based fantasy system like Mythras or Gurps Dungeon Fantasy or RuneQuest nothing stops you from getting trained in talents, spells, and other abilities to come up with good synergies or combinations of powers.

[@amyloriley]

​@@spiralvex2686 Well, yeah, that's the core of a skill-based system, is it not? A class being just a template of premade choices in that skill-based system. In D&D, there is no reason a character couldn't take both Magic Missile and Entangle as spells. Except for the fact that these spells belong to two distinct character classes, Wizard and Druid, and as either of those you cannot take the other one. Because they don't respectively have access to the other spell in their template. The moment you start multiclassing, you create your own templates and you can access both spells, if they fit your concept. That's true, and makes a skill-based system better than a class-based system. Classes are just premade choices in that skill-based system after all. Except... when they aren't. Classes have the potential to be so much more. If they don't use that potential (e.g. D&D), then sure, get rid of the precontext of the class system altogether. What I meant with... No, let's get something straight. Can we both agree that creating a character build and mastering a character are two different things? I'd argue they are two separate hobbies even. Plenty of people in subreddits as r/3d6 create custom characters from 1 to 20, all statted out, without actually playing these in game. And I say that because, multiclassing or a skill-based design offers input in this hobby, the hobby of character creation. When all choices are made for you, or you made all choices in the past, and you play your character, it's a different hobby. The hobby of mastering what you have. In a class-based system like League of Legends or World of Warcraft, you have some tools that you need, but distinctly do not have all the tools you want. A paladin character might have no ranged options. When multiclassing, you can easily get your ranged options. But when character customization is not an option, you have to fall back on other party members to fill in that gap. It changes the dynamic of the game. Everyone has distinct strengths and weaknesses, and hopefully they are created with these in mind. This dynamic is much harder to achieve if everyone can just make sure they can do everything through making the right character build. But what if you want to play a ranged paladin, you ask? Wrong question. You can't. But you have to understand a class system gives up player expression through character, as far as class design goes. If character expression is important to you through your class mechanics, this system is not for you. However, do note that character customization might still be possible outside the concepts of class, in forms of skill proficiencies and such, or the fiction of which clothes you wear and what your face looks like. A half-naked barbarian might have problems entering a fancy ball, and that has nothing to do with their class abilities. Inner class workings then. The limitations of a class can give you new ways to think about. If you're a healer and you make sure you build a character to have enough healing spells for the day, that's one thing. But what if your class gives you this unique thing of having only one healing spell, but it has a cooldown for an amount of turns equal to the amount of characters you healed with it. You heal 1 character? 1 turn cooldown. You heal 5 characters? 5 turns cooldown. Now you have to think. You have to strategize around it. You can't just take more healing spells and be done with it as always. Because character customization is not an option in this class design. It's these experiments that are harder to achieve when making a skill-based system (or a spell-based system in which you pick your spells each day). But with a tightly designed class system, a healer with one healing spells and hopefully some other spells that work tightly together with it, these experiments are much more achievable. D&D doesn't do this, mind you. For me, D&D is just a skill-based system that uses classes as templates in it, rather than go deeper in what it could mean to have a class-based system. Does this clarify it for you? Hoping on a reply.

[@DarthStuticus]

Yes. The Answer is Yes.

[@WhatisTableTop]

That is the correct answer

[@ChrisVengeant]

Rolemaster is skill based but you may still choose a profession which represents the fact that some people inherently have an easier or harder time with every skill that exists. You can skip professions too but will not have an inherent advantage or disadvantage anywhere.

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

class systems naturally evolve into skill systems, because being restricted to a single class in a game that takes it's character customization seriously makes no sense. there is no reason why a character can't learn skills outside of a certain archetype unless you go out of your way to write it in the lore or something. even class based games don't usually restrict themselves to classes, pretty much all of them have multiclassing. like vancian spellcasting eventually gives way to simpler more flexible resource systems. cause vancian spellcasting is garbage lol

[@randomusernameCallin]

The thing about a skill base is you cannot have the large asymmetrical rule to the same away a class system allows.

[@Drudenfusz]

O course it is also possible to do neither, and that where I personally also fall into.

[@JMSouchak]

Skill based is better.

[@bobdole3996]

It is superior just overly complicated at times and tends to be harder to balance.

[@familykletch5156]

Encounter balance is the worst form of gamification.

[@elijahelizalde4308]

Awwww yeah, these are the nerd deep dives I'm on youtube for

[@swordsnstones]

interesting thoughts, our game is skill based and yet we use levels also :)

[@swordsnstones]

our game allows players to gravitate to which every archetype they enjoy without being locked in , in order to use multiple skills. The PC can use weapons as well as cast spells and heal, they are not restricted to one only. :)

[@swordsnstones]

leveling up in our game is basically something to progress towards in order to increase your HP , and increasing the Combat DC against monsters to hopefully allow your PC to live longer. At 4th we introduce specialty skills, at 6th the GH can determine a Modifier skill bonus [+1 to each stat mod or specified] based on how a player is developing their pc towards a certain skill set [upcoming in an update] Keep 'em Rollin'

[@mart8675309]

2:01 I'm gonna stop you right there. I don't agree that video game RPGs are mostly class based. The elder scrolls and fallout series use a skill based system as do most JRPGs like FFX for example. So do the witcher, mass effect, zelda, elden ring, dark souls, etc. I'd say it's really only video games based on D&D like BG3 that use the class system.