Which Is Better Solder or Braze? | Pressure Test

[@dcl97]

I worked for a company that built high pressure refrigerant systems, and we did a lot of testing to find the best type of joint. It's important to note that there are different grades and formulations of solder. The stuff you'll find at the hardware store made for plumbing is plenty strong, but they don't even come close to the strength of specialty high Ag formulations which overlap on the lower end with brazing processes. The issue we had with brazed joints in our testing was that the copper became annealed at the temperature required to braze, and this resulted in an overall inferior assembly. The joints themselves are strong, but the heat caused an excessive amount of damage to the crystalline structure of the copper. Soldered assemblies at 1000 psi had a significantly lower failure rate than brazed ones that went through our accelerated lifespan testing.

[@jemjones5675]

This goes into welding, but, as I'm sure you know, but for others, when you heat a metal up super high, you ruin the crystalline structure that has been "grown" during the production process. That's why in metal working, after high temps (like red hot metal) you have to do what's called Tempering to regrow the crystalline structure of the metal, which is what gives it's more strength then just being metal. So. You could, in places, premake your pipes with higher temp-stronger brazes, and then temper them before installation. But that's fairly unfeasible in on-site locations.

[@zachreyhelmberger894]

Wow! Great to know!!

[@jasonthurston799]

@@jemjones5675 Isn't a lot of HVAC regrigerant line copper already soft (annealed)?

[@felderup]

would it be possible to pressurise through cycles to work harden with water pressure?

[@jemjones5675]

@@jasonthurston799 Maybe? I don't know, I was just going by what I know about metal. I know that I've seen refrigerant lines be super soft, but I don't know if those are for low pressure systems or not; I would assume that those are annealed as they are soft. Shrug.

[@JFirn86Q]

I love this testing, and this confirms my point with refrigeration techs that never believe me - a soldered joint using something rated like Stay-Brite 8 is possibly stronger than a BRAZED joint. The problem is brazing weakens the copper from the high heat needed to braze. Solder temps do not do this, and it's just as strong as shown here. It held twice the pressure. Notice how the copper failed close to the braze joint, the heat affected zone. Any more of this type of testing you could do is great!!

[@VTdarkangel]

I'm a refrigeration tech. My main concern with using stay brite vs. braze is the temperatures the system operates at. Compressor discharge temps in a refrigeration system can be over 200 deg F. That's hot enough that it makes me question whether a solder joint can hold over time given its lower melting temperature. If you get into large supermarket systems, nearly all the pipe in the system can go through regular thermocycles of up to that temperature daily, sometimes multiple times a day. The 15% silver braze I use has an application temperature of around 1500 deg. As long as I do my job correctly, I know I'll never have to worry about that joint failing because I have seen properly brazed joints well over 50 years old still holding leak tight.

[@JFirn86Q]

@@VTdarkangel Stay Brite 8 solidus point of 430F and liquidus of 535F. Meaning it is solid at 430F and lower, and won't become liquid until 535F. While yes, in some high heat circumstances I agree, but even in R410A you aren't going to see above 150F (for the record, that would be a pressure of 615 psig, which the system would shut down by that point).

[@VTdarkangel]

@JohnChuprun You're referring to liquid saturation temperature. The temperature of the gas as it comes out of the compressor is much higher than saturation, especially in the supermarket systems I work on because of the higher compression ratios that are required. Any system that has a hot gas defrost will experience those discharge temperatures throughout the system periodically throughout the day. That is a lot of thermocycles that can put a lot of thermal and mechanical stress on joints over the life span of the system. However, I will grant you the AC application. With the exception of the pipe between the compressor and condensor, the thermocycles of an AC system are considerably less severe compared to what I regularly work on.

[@alexirwin2093]

The main problem with soldering on refrigerant lines is the acid from the Flux getting into the refrigerant. This will break down the compressor windings over time.

[@sivalley]

​@@JFirn86Q AC tech and ex Navy nuclear plant operator with a concentration on chemistry controls to toss in my two cents. While the liquidus temp of soft solder will never be reached by compressor hot gas under ideal situations. (I Have seen system discharge temps approaching 250F) You do not have to get close to the liquidus temp for the alloy joint to fail for the same reason a blacksmith doesn't need to bring his iron to the melting point of steel; plastic flow. The joint will not fail immediately. But it will eventually fail as the solder slowly flows. I have been to repair calls for residential heat pumps in the winter time having the vapor lines separate and completely lose their charge leaving behind the tell-tale shiny silvery alloy on the stub and having to go back with 45% silver alloy to get enough whetting for the joint to hold. Now, this not to say that silver soldering copper has no place in refrigeration, so long as it's less than 1/4 the liquidus temp like cold vapor only lines, or low velocity refrigerant flow systems. Finally, a correction to your assumption about heat affected zones; copper does NOT flame harden, it only work hardens. The heat affected zone works counter to your assumption; heating copper to brazing temperatures aneals it making it LESS prone to fatigue failure from overpressure, however because he applied heat to such a narrow point at the joint with respect to the pipe diameter he created a stress riser and explains why the failure occured where it did. You are supposed to heat 3 x diameter of the pipe to create a gradual stress relief in hard pipe (not necessary in soft pipe). The use of type L is not recommended for systems above 600psi, which is why K is used in refrigeration applications so both should have held up to 6kpsi as the soldered test did, but improper technique caused premature failure in the brazed sample.

[@JCbrewNweld]

The brazed pipe definitely got annealed from the excess heat. Love the videos!

[@RogerWakefield]

Thanks 👍

[@AwestrikeFearofGods]

Agreed. Greater plastic deformation, even with a shorter crack and lower pressure.

[@HeadsDisplay]

I use solder as my father taught me for pumping but blaze for hvac refigerat systems

[@mdunbar008]

makes sense. The brazing temperature actually weakens the copper, BUT a brazed joint can withstand much more heat before the joint fails. I have always been told that is the reason oxygen and flammable gas systems require brazed joints, so that they won't fail in a fire.

[@bobshanery5152]

Thats the code and only reason out here. Some government EPA nonsense. If your house is on fire that little leaking of refrigerant may help remove some of the flames. I doubt someones last thoughts in a house fire is "Well at least the refrigerant in my destroyed house and AC is fine"

[@ooltimu]

How exactly does it weaken it? It anneals it at most

[@Neo1969]

@@ooltimu Annealing is when the copper would be heated too temperature and held at that temperature for a period then slowly cooled over a long period of time. Rapid heat and then instant air cooled aren't Annealing.

[@ooltimu]

@@Neo1969 1. I said "at most" 2. all info I can find on copper annealing says quick cooling in water

[@someguyonli]

Gotta be honest. I like watching anything you do. I really feel like I'm learning something every time I watch your videos.

[@RogerWakefield]

I appreciate that, we have fun learning and doing these experiments right here with you

[@Mark-op6tx]

​@RogerWakefield interesting test. I wouldn't mind seeing like black iron for fire suppression systems. Also what would happen if you were to use different types of heating and cooling methods. Like if you excessively over heat a pipe then use cold water to rapidly cool down a joint as well as different types of pipes... possibly like galvanized or stuff we dont use anymore. I'm a sparky so it info I will likely not apply but I still like to know.

[@turbotrana]

I learnt alot from this video and the comments. I used to think why not just braze everything, but now can see some benefits to soldering.

[@RogerWakefield]

We've got some great people in the comments, I learn from them all the time

[@jamesallen3739]

Id like to see you test K and M copper 👍 keep the videos coming this is great content. 👍

[@maxwebster7572]

I worked at a shop owned by a fellow who started out in aircraft. The in ground air over hydraulic hoists were plumbed with copper and cement poured overtop. I lifted MANY Dodge vans at 6-7000 lbs and the occasional 1 ton with dump body. Never had an issue. The hoist at my Grandfathers shop had steel lines and they rotted out. Dangerous as hell but I still prefer them over electric.

[@fisqual]

Watching this really makes me happy that I'm old-school and stick to soldered copper. Especially when compared to PEX. Just something about a system that's been around for 100 years that even can still be in service 100 years later is comforting to me.

[@javier.mv11]

It’s always a good idea to watch your videos, I have said this a lot a of times, most of my plumbing knowledge has been by watching your videos, not leaving behind the California Plumbing code book and the UPC! Thanks Roger for teaching!

[@RogerWakefield]

So glad to hear this…this is why we do we at we do. Thanks for watching brother 😎

[@allenkincheloe2591]

As a pipefitter I was told/trained that brazing strengths are it can handle heating and cooling cycles better (like in refrigeration) and ductility when buried. Solder is faster, and cheaper but is more likley to crack if heated and cooled, or if the joints are flexed.

[@nobodynoone2500]

They thermally expand at different rates. Brazing is closer to the copper.

[@kennylavay8492]

so in reality what is the difference the fittings hold and the pipe blows, oranges to oranges. they the pipe fails not the fittings.

[@nothankyou5524]

You don't have a clue. Best you keep your ignorance to yourself

[@nothankyou5524]

​@nobodynoone2500 Not a chance. You don't have a clue. Copper does not handle the heat of brazing well. Your annealing it. You do understand, milk dud?

[@capitalism420]

​@@nothankyou5524 oh really?

[@smille12]

As a plumber starting in the 70s, brown jersey gloves were my go to when soldering, unless they got wet, lol, i have noticed the antinomy of the solders and quality of brass and copper fittings has diminished greatly since then, thanks for your content

[@smille12]

Not sure what to do with my old lead ladels. Lead pot and caulking irons anymore, they just take up space in my box, but will keep them for whatever reason, lol

[@smille12]

@mattmuch7536 antimony , added to a tin lead solder as a substitute for some of the tin , it is added to increase the strength and properties of a solder. It helps the unsimilar materials create a permanent bond. Example of one is 95/5, gooday

[@smille12]

@mattmuch7536 50/50 has been disused for potable copper since the epa lead and copper rule , where potable water systems had a acidic Langlier index it leached the lead from the solder creating a potable water violation, when the Langlier is alkaline it coated and prevented the release of lead

[@monteglover4133]

I’m a retired HVAC&R contractor I’ve used a turbo torch for both soft and hard solder. I have seldom seen a proper joint fail but most were the tubing, soft solder are more prone to failure from vibration. I piped a refrigeration systems that were to be temporary with soft solder and after 10 years no leaks. The silver content is for flow and tinning (adhesion) Hard solder is brazing and soft solder is soldering

[@rdalemd76]

Been using Staybrite 8 for about 10 years now and not having any leak issues. I would certainly trust this over sharkbite style fittings or compression fittings with o-rings.

[@PoorWays]

When I first started in plumbing it was turbo torch and map. After going on my own and with Mapp no longer produced I just use the best Benzomatic portable torch and camping propane. Depending on different research it seems Mappro(Polypropylene) only gets between 5-10% hotter but costs twice as much as propane. I almost always drain lines before soldering, clean fittings & pipe, so I've never had trouble getting hot or getting a callback. If I run into a situation where I need more heat(rarely), I usually run a secondary hose torch which I can control with the bottle torch both with one hand.

[@jeffcroft10]

Test pro press fittings please

[@topher8634]

I've seen these push apart when a line freezes.

[@MrKnnthc93]

@@topher8634that’s user error. Why would you use exposed copper in freezing temps

[@topher8634]

@@MrKnnthc93 they weren't exposed, when I responded to the service call. It was the line feeding an outside bibb that passed through a mechanical room that has an exhaust fan drawing in outside air to cool refrigeration condensers. The line was insulated, but the store owner didn't shut off the Bibbs prior to the freeze. And I reinsulated after the repair. Apparently the propress pushed apart before the line busted. Typically on soldered fittings the line splits but I have seen soldered caps push off too. It was always on an older building though.

[@MrDeviousdom]

@@MrKnnthc93 The real question is why would you not sweat the fittings together? Two options come to mind: Lack of skill. Laziness. If you are in a combustible environment or one that does not allow open flame, then use inductive heating. There are no excuses to not do the job right.

[@seanmcmurran7552]

Also do a test with a control, multiple samples and high speed cameras. Just saying, either way, good video

[@AmericaTheGreat-1776]

You should test “best to worst”. Stainless, to type k, l, &m copper, braze, sweat, propress, and sharkbite.

[@theduck17]

Saw a little bit of leaking on the brazed pipe before the copper blew out...but based on the angle, couldn't tell if it came from the brazed portion or elsewhere. But the solder definitely held up. Great video!

[@RogerWakefield]

It looked like it was coming from the adapter where it attaches to the blast chamber, joints held up!

[@theduck17]

@@RogerWakefield That's what I was thinking, thanks for confirming!

[@kolossrodossky493]

Did not expect that at all ! Always trusted the soldering and it is looking promising ! thanks for the content !💪

[@RogerWakefield]

No worries! Glad you enjoy what we do

[@jackmclane1826]

I started using a special solder for AC work. Private. I'm not a contractor. Harris Staybrite No 8 has a bit higher melting point than normal plumbers solder. I was not able to break the line with a 200bars nitrogen tank. The brazed joint blew next to the joint, where the high heat from brazing damaged the copper. So when using the correct solder, it is better than brazing. Same here! The braze blew at half the pressure as the soldered pipe did.

[@MMPCTV]

Thank you for the explanations. I thought soldering and brazing where interchangeable terms. Now I know they aren't. Thank you for that. BTW - I'm a DIY home owner. I'm slowly replacing the copper with pex in the walls, because I don't trust my soldering skills. I just found your channel, I've watched two videos and I've already learned something.

[@MIGHTYX2010]

🤯 I would like to see if the burst PSI changes from rapidly cooling your joint with cold water say from dipping it in water or using a spray bottle after you sweat your pipe. Then explain to us about the annealing process and how it does weaken the copper or does not. 💪👍

[@TooPAC92]

Yes type k definitely do that one

[@RogerWakefield]

Coming soon!

[@milesdurand1772]

I personally use a map gas proline hosed turbo torch and atlas 370 showa nitrile gloves. I love my turbo torch.

[@andrewsaffle]

For me. What i use to solder... i went and bought one of those Propane solder kits from menards... Works perfectly.

[@Ryan-323]

When in doubt, add pressure and C4!!! I love plumbing, old-school anything better is explosives.

[@clutteredchicagogarage2720]

Great video! I would definitely like to see the pressure difference of L, K and M copper pipe. I'm not surprised that a good solder joint held and the pipe failed. In part, it's because the solder wicks in between the fitting and the pipe, and so you have double-walled pipe at the solder joints but only single-walled in the in the middle. It makes sense that the double walls of the pipe+fitting with solder in between will hold more pressure. That's why I would like to see how much pressure different thicknesses of copper pipe will hold.

[@jemjones5675]

So would I. I keep seeing how people are doing comparisons of copper vs other materials....but they use like the thinnest copper available. "Yeah these'll only last 20 years"....when the thick shit last like 80 lol.

[@fuzznut25]

I was almost done installing my HVAC unit and my oxygen regulator popped. I ended up tig brazing my last joint on the suction line. It worked surprisingly well and didn’t ruin anything lol

[@fuzznut25]

No I think it worked fine. I backpurged the lines with argon before brazing so I don’t think any carbon was introduced into the system. Then I left it pressurized with about 150psi of argon on both sides for 24 hours no leak. Vac for 2 hrs then charge. Has worked fine for nearly 2 years

[@jeffreyplumber1975]

ok I like the turbo acetelene If Im on a job site ill use the b tank almost every time if its handy . but i quit bringing out on small jobs doing resedential repairs or water heaters Ill use the turbo mapp hand torch dont like those quick start types just a regular turbo. You prooved my opinion braze over heats pipe makes it lose the heat treat blows up but the joint itself is rock solid. not uncommon for some jobs to spec out braze on 2 1/2 " and bigger soft solder to 2 inch. Up to you Im not tha interested in PSI of type m or k . great channel thanks

[@rickyrichy5496]

This is crazy. I didn’t think it would hold

[@PoorWays]

Just a humble addendum, I still do carry a can a Mappro in the work van just in case like a security blanket but truly never had to use it.

[@haha-yq6fh]

This is fascinating to me as a welder. I thought the end cap would bust or it would blow in the heat effected zone and it did. I bet the soldered test piece withstood more pressure because of the lower heat input as well as smaller heat effected zone

[@joshuarock8223]

I really enjoy your videos, your energy and how informative you are. Thank you.

[@RogerWakefield]

I appreciate that! Thanks for watching

[@Hnkka]

Brazing of course in finland we dont even train soldering at vocational school. Everything is brazed using oxyace torch, welds are done with oxyace or tig. Furniture like sinks or copper pipes that are left insight are connected with those crush/squeeze fittings from uponor. I think we only braze because we use brass parts here instead of copper

[@lawrencecole6527]

This HAS been fun! Thank you!

[@derschafer1012]

My first boss preferred soldering over brazing (all else being equal). He said that heating the copper to the temperature necessary to braze also anneals the copper, making it softer and more likely to blow out. I was just 14 when I was working with him, and he was a former chemical engineer for Merck who would balance formulas for drugs, so I never questioned him on such things. I noticed that the brazed pipe blew out at 3,600 while the soldered pipe blew out at 7,000. So I wonder if that supports what he told me. I also worked as a building mechanic for a different pharmaceutical company on a campus with 38 buildings. They would constantly remodel and the plumbing contractors almost never soldered or brazed joints because that required a hot work permit. Because of the scope, scale and red-tape restrictions, it was more expedient for them to ProPress everything. The younger plumbers in that company, as talented and professional as they were, didn’t even know how to solder simply because they never needed to do it. And ProPress does suck. It was a running joke between the maintenance mechanics that our job was to follow the contractors from building to building fixing all the leaking ProPress joints since we could solder without hot work permits. Me and one other mechanic, Mike, must have repaired around 50 leaking joints in my 7 year stint on that campus. Maybe it was their tools being beaten up or neglected or failure to recalibrate them - but that’s still a pretty high failure rate. I didn’t mind tailing the contractors at all, I really enjoy soldering. It’s somewhat cathartic.

[@YungSteambuns]

​@@mattmuch7536 it's definitely for a long period when brazing, 3/8 usually takes about 15sec But 3/4 can take up to a minute sometimes and sometimes a little longer if it's a coupling in a weird spot and you have to get both sides

[@joshualux8309]

Stk 9 and ill never change. I just wish victor would sell plumbers repair parts like they sell welders repair parts for their cutting torches. Hey victor, plumbers have the right to repair to. And wether you like it or not I’ve already rebuilt several of my stk 9s

[@victoryfirst2878]

The water hydraulic pressure test machine we had at work was rated at 100000 PSI. I can tell you I enjoyed destroying things whenever I had the chance. First we would test for specifications and then DESTROY THE ITEM. !!!! I used either the TURBO TORCH OR MAPP TORCH for soldering Sir.

[@varanidguy]

After moving to my first house in AZ, I was surprised to see that the neighborhood didn't have pressure regulators installed on the homes. The PSI is between 75 and 80 here, so clearly it's not a huge risk of blowing anything. Still, I may install one anyway as kind of a "just in case" thing. But I've been here for over 2 years already with no issues, so...

[@gurubry]

Have you done a pressure test where you solder a joint then cool it down immediately with a wet cloth, vs a joint that was left to gradually cool?

[@strikerj4810]

I just did a solder joint recently where I used a rag to wipe down the joint after soldering to remove excess solder (solder was still liquid) and the rag was somewhat wet. Well while I was doing this I heard a pop noise and was certain it was the solder joint cracking from the wet cloth cooling it too rapidly. So I resoldered the joint and should be good now.

[@PaulRuckman]

I would love to see you do M copper the same way, you remind me of my masters giving me homework back in 1980.!

[@shadeiland]

Solder I use a turbo torch stk-99 mep gap with the built in lighter. For brazing I use turbo torch with a b-tank don’t remember the model.

[@chrisdaniel1339]

Did you notice the brazed joint leaked before the burst occurred. I am impressed with the solder joint. Good cleaning is key.

[@deathreus]

A portable induction heater for precise temperature control would be a game changer, hot enough to melt but not hot enough to compromise the metal

[@jaimedpcaus1]

I liked this video. You did a lab test. 🎉 Thanks

[@RogerWakefield]

Glad you liked it! Do you prefer solder or braze?

[@jaimedpcaus1]

@RogerWakefield After your review (during the lab test) it would be more expensive to do a braze when we now know that the problem is not the older but the pipe.

[@JimmGr7]

Nice video. interesting, for a refrigerator technician. it would be nice to try with a cooling pipe or in general to look for thicker ones in the housing. tubes that are usually for cooling applications, are over 1.2mm. those meant for dioxide, are even thicker.

[@badbronco06]

Test L and K tubing. former propane guy here and it like to see how much flare fittings and K and L tubing can handle

[@VarrasseK]

Definitely should have started with K 💪 but would love to see the pressure limit differences between K/L/M. Also, type K with solder/press/compression/push fittings, if you could. Thank you for all of your content!! Edit: step up to a 2" copper pipe with a thicker wall. to truely test them maybe even go as far as special ordering the pipes from a manufacturer with a 0.15" wall 🤔

[@RogerWakefield]

Yes we're planning on testing L and M type copper. Thank you for the suggestions!

[@rad196390]

I’d really like to see a k-type copper pipe, fitting and joint pressure test!!!

[@RogerWakefield]

I’d like to try it out too! We’ll start that soon

[@jamess1787]

Home owner here, never did legal plumbing work. Used a regular ole bernzomatic torch, works for me. Brazing: nope, never had to do it. 😁

[@asf130thecompany7]

Yep he knows his stuff :D Fun to watch :)

[@Deamon1333]

We use an Induction heater for soldering and Brazing.

[@jpeterd92]

My theory for why the pipe failed at a lower pressure on the braised joint was because the copper was annealed more by the higher temperature softening it.

[@Fireman208134]

I have blown copper pipe under less pressure. Was working on a slow speed diesel engine and only had copper L type for a temporary lube oil pipe repair. Maby 50 psi. The non compressible oil caused fatigue failure and blew the pipe at a lower pressure.

[@xcoder1122]

A really solid joint is rarely the weak link. This applies to all types of joints. Even if you join two pieces of wood correctly with wood glue, it is more likely that your wood will break at another point than at the joint. Even with welding, the metal will usually fail structurally before the weld breaks. If the joint gives way first, then it was not a good joint and it was usually the work of an amateur who did not know what he was doing.

[@trevorwhalley7466]

Dear Roger. One good reason why companies dont solder is THE BLOWLAMP, THEY GAIN A SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION IN INSURANCE RATES, due to the much lower risk of fire. Having used a blowlamp in a confined space, left the building after 30 minutes for lunch, then returned to be greeted with fire engines putting the house out i very much agree with the change. Another. reason is carrying blowlanp fuel canisters in tunnels is not permitted

[@jpeterd92]

I spent 2 years working at an r&d company building prototype furnaces, and we got to blow stuff up like this sometimes 😁😁

[@meatballhead3290]

Rothenberger Quickfire Torch with MAP gas bottle for soldering Natural gas pipelines and Central Heating pipelines (UK). We don't Flux the inside of the fitting either, we just flux the pipe that goes into the fitting.

[@williammorris3303]

I’ve seen this test done between solder and press before but I’d like to see it on your box

[@dragonhero14]

Not sure if you've already tried it, but I'd love to see press fit connections tested.

[@gordonhemberton6519]

Out here in California we have tens of thousands of mid-century modern homes and apartments with copper hydronic space heating pipes in the slab. We were tought that you always had to braze the repairs because the concrete would attack the soldered joint causing it to leak again wthin a few years.

[@Shawn_RHVAC]

Would love to see you test brazing alloy vs. Staybrite 8 silver alloy solder for refrigeration purposes. Everyone still set on the overheating/ brazing with needed nitrogen. Staybrite 8 is fast and significantly lower temperature.

[@alanpreiss1224]

I think that the Stay Brite 8 Solder joint is as strong, if not stronger than the braised joint. The excessive heat from the brazing process actually anneals the copper pipe making it softer so the pipe bursts under less pressure and opens up less because it is annealed. I think the only reason why brazing is used in HVAC is because there is little if any prep required. You simply flow nitrogen and that’s it. I have soldered HVAC lines with Stay Brite 8 and and even regular leaded solder and as long as you prep well and use very little flux and don’t contaminate the inside of the pipe, the joints are good, and the system runs for years. Soldering causes no oxidation on the inside if done right. I have never seen a situation where brazing out performed a good solder joint with either lead or silver-based solders. Whether it was Plumbing or HVAC. My HVAC Tech would argue with me to the ends of the Earth about this but has never tried soldering as it is not the industry standard. He has never been able to prove otherwise. I have HVAC soldered joints that are still holding up even after 10 years, so i’m confident in my opinion.

[@Andrei-xl1xe]

Really informative and entertaining also, it was easy to listen and get info into my head while watching you blow stuff up.

[@Z-Ack]

I use a butane torch thats modified. Its a blazer pro brand.. thing gets hot for butane.. can melt aluninum easily..

[@PatrickBaptist-vv2bg]

Thanks Mr. Wakefield I def learned some things. Magic is such bs though.

[@lmt7816]

I have a TurboTorch but still have my old Goss Switchfire which also works.

[@RogerWakefield]

Which do you use more often?

[@lmt7816]

@@RogerWakefield the TurboTorch. The Switchfire was my first real (not bernzomatic) torch.

[@lmt7816]

I just remembered the Goss torch last usage. I helped a good friend replace shower and tub valves in his bathroom. He's a former union Ironworker and wanted to learn how to solder copper & brass, so, I showed him with the Goss Switchfire and MAP-Pro. I started him with the detail Goss torch (TD) on a cap for the spout stubout and then moved up to T1 for the valve bodies.

[@RogerWakefield]

I love that!!!

[@SDS-1]

Yes I used to blow up hydraulic hoses at 10,000 psi and above to validate rated working pressures.

[@mikewalko536]

Great video! Thanks for testing and posting

[@RogerWakefield]

Thanks for watching!

[@xushenxin]

Good test! This is what I really want to know!

[@erikyoung256]

You did well and I shared it with many!

[@RogerWakefield]

Thank you so much! Glad you enjoyed it

[@scottcpan68]

I'm a DIY guy who has been soldering copper plumbing pipes for years and have become very proficient at it. I'm about to replace my entire HVAC systems myself and my only concern is the refrigerant lines. I would like to just use solder because I already have everything that I need. To braze them I would have to get the tools and materials then learn how to do it. This is a residential R410a system that will rarely see pressures above 300 psi. I've heard different opinions on soldering vs brazing, would like to hear some more.

[@monkeymoment6478]

As an HVAC installer, braze them in. If you are really stuck on brazing, at least use the Stay Brite 8 gimmick

[@frequentlycynical642]

I replaced my ancient evaporator last summer. Since there was no 50 year old evap available, I had to engineer my thermal specs and dimension to purchase an appropriate unit. Silver soldered all the joints. Tested to 400 psi, no issue. Brazing is totally unnecessary. (I used to oxycetalyn braze iron and steel years ago, so it's not like I'm afraid of the process. You can do it with an ordinary propane torch. Think about this: a brazed joint is held together via a ring of material. Soldered joints are held together by the two surfaces trying to separate in shear. That will never, ever happen.

[@andrew1898]

Roger. You should of Aneeled the copper after you heated it. Would of made a stronger cross linked pipe. All you have to do is quench it in cold water after heating

[@jameskitzmann6268]

Yes. Don't blow up pvc without some serious safety shields. A maint man blew up a 8" PVC sch 80 Chill water line and it punctured tires, took out a section of brick wall, had shards of pipe stuck in car doors. I'm a safety third get the job done guy and i leave plastic pipe alone after seeing the damage. We had repaired a leaking joint at an elbow and let dry overnight. We were supposed to restaart the system but the maintance man said he knew better, let the system fill about half way and turned on the pumps (3x8") with the outlet valves wide open. We had 20 guys out there nonstop for 4 or 5 days replacing the entire system with black steel victalic and weld pipe.

[@RogerWakefield]

That is CRAZY! Hopefully no one got hurt? Pressures that high are very dangerous and we take safety seriously, thanks for looking out 😎💪

[@jameskitzmann6268]

No one gut seriously hurt thankfully. The guy that turned on the pumps got hit by the doors to the room or something . Myself and my Journeyman were about 10 min away. Ed Thomas Company and a building for Exxon back in the late 70s . That was a very fun company to work for. We were in the plumbing service department , The company was a Mechanical contractor in Houston.

[@Jimmermahomoney]

Everyone thinks it’s the steel or alloy that will bite you. No it’s plastic.

[@RogerWakefield]

Plastic and porcelain!

[@Jimmermahomoney]

@@RogerWakefield yep that china is as sharp as a katana when splintered

[@destinylags6863]

It just depends what the joint will be used for... for hvac, compressor for example... we need to braze these instead of solder because of the vibration of the compressor... yes solder can withstand a little more, but the vibration is what we NEED braze for

[@chahahc]

And this is why I always use solder for in wall connections.

[@williammorris3303]

I went to finish a job in Pittsburgh for a plumber , when I got there I brought everything I needed in, then the guy overseeing the site stopped me and said I couldn’t sweat in hot water tanks because,”Greg never solders”. Greg is the other plumber I split work with often

[@RogerWakefield]

Plumbers reach out to me all the time and say they aren’t allowed to solder…. CRAZY!!!!!

[@williammorris3303]

@@RogerWakefield soldering use to be a diy skill, now it’s on its way to being a lost technology. I use propress but at the same time some things need to be soldered. I see ppl make messes with propress because something is to close to press so they circle pipe around Willy nilly to make it get in there

[@whitewalker47ag49]

I am interested to know if brazing actually makes a weaker connection in copper pipe. This test is not conclusive as there was only one test with each but the solder joint held more than twice the pressure before the pipe gave out, I suspect the cause is to be the excessively large amount of heat being put into the copper changing its characteristics although I cant be sure without further testing. If so then why braze at all.

[@PowerPlay25kV]

I suspect the annealed copper from the brazed joints enabled the pipe to fail much sooner compared to the soldered joint. Was hoping the big guy was going to speak to this…

[@SilvaDreams]

I have a feeling that it is just old method vs new. Old pipes were cast iron so brazing would actually make sense where as modern soldering works much better specially on softer copper pipes.

[@gablacasseb]

I do thousands of brazing a year as a hvac tech and never seen one fail. When done properly

[@wd8557]

Stay Brite 8 is stronger than both, but looks and goes on like solder. I use it every were in refrigeration except at the compressor. I confirmed this Harris.

[@RogerWakefield]

Thanks for your input. Much appreciated!!!!

[@WesB1972]

I have had really good performance over the years with StayBrite 8.

[@bigdeal6058]

I would really enjoy it if you could pressure test a crimp on fitting like propress. Learn a lot from your video thanks.

[@RogerWakefield]

I've got that written down, 👍🏽

[@leifhietala8074]

If I had to guess, I'd say the higher process temperature of the braze joint weakened the copper itself, which is why that pipe failed at a significantly lower pressure than the soldered test article. They both failed close to the fitting where all the heat was applied. But it's also worth pointing out that just one sample of each isn't a rigorous test, or a large enough sample to indicate correlations between processes and failure levels.

[@thehvachacker]

I staybrite 8 a lot of new AC refrigerant lines. It caused me to stop putting flux into my fittings. To try and prevent flux from getting into my system. The annealing of the copper from high temps caused it to fail under less pressure. I have many AC systems 20+ years old still cooling. I braze my hot gas discharge line. Suction connection on compressor or anything before the condenser coil/ refrigerant sub-cools. Lineset fittings getting enclosed behind sheetrock I also braze. Many freak out on my vids cause I like to solder my lineset fittings. 😂😂😂

[@flyinghigh5531]

I solder with map, braze with oxy acetylene, either a 2 tip for tight spots, but rose bud normally

[@syreplays5079]

Now roger, turbotorch is a brand. They make acetylene, propane, and mapp torches.

[@markburton5292]

would be interested to see a test of the compressed fittings vs soldered. We just had our hydronic system redone and the used pressed/compressed copper fittings

[@Vermythe]

In Poland we use brazing on copper natural gas lines, only problem i see with them is copper getting annealed near the joint, its always a litlle scary when you need to unthread a fitting from those pipes. There is a significant chance that it's gonna twist and break on you if handled incorrectly. And amount of heat required to braze, in confined spaces, with a flmmable materials all around, i would rather use a press, tyvm :)

[@jamoecw]

I would try using a hammer to fold over and seal a copper pipe to see if the heat from either weakened the pipe. I would also check the expansion wear from heating and cooling the joints excessively to see if that changes things. One should expect the brazing to have weakened the pipe, the solder less so if at all, and the brazing to possibly handle thermal wear and tear better.

[@GUSftw]

loved this

[@MichaelLeeOne]

I worked in HVAC and we used a small oxy acetylene torch and I liked 6 silver solder because I liked the way it flowed and it was way cheaper then 15 percent and I had to pay for it myself lol

[@dwpinspectot]

The solder did not have as large a heat effected zone. As we know doing pressure equations we have to account for both heat and cold in the math. Heat WILL soften copper so that gave the in this case type L copper more ductility and therefore was able to split sooner. I did however expect a larger buldge or stretch. From an API-510/570 inspector thought process by the way

[@markmatt9174]

Ex military, USAF 1986 to 1993 Aircraft Hydraulics Technician. Back shop test bench & Titanium line tester setter.😢 Titanium lines once bent nneded to be SET by high pressure so they held their shapes. Small 1/4" lines had a set pressure around 45,000psi if i remember right. 😮😮😮 blew up a good number of lines. Most often blew the expansion tools out of the ends (he k of a mess and booms inside the crash box we built on our Hyd test bench. Love the air oversystems, once cycling a accumulater i had rebuilt I over e tended it on the high speed circuit & coated the shop 😂😂😢😢😢😢. 3hr cleanup and moping on a Saturday. 😡 Blew up a #12 hyd line that also made a heck of a mess, had a 90 degree bend in it. Broke and shot fluid out the 90 in spot that went right out the open top corner of the crash box. 😢😮😮 turned our wall clock pink 😂😂😅😅. Sgt 384th FMS McConnell AFB KS 1987-1991, OTE team B2 Edwards AFB CA 1991-1993.

[@xald1234114]

The smaller hole on the braze is because it was only roughly 3k psi from the high heat, the soldering didn't get nearly as hot so it retained it's strength

[@isettech]

A fresh joint is much different than an aged joint after electrolosis has attacked it. Add a few temperature cycles on a hot water system and ask any plumber about joints beginning to leak. Otherwise it is a good video. There is a reason refrigeration lines are brazed and not soldered. The temperature cycling and pressure cycles have something to do with it. It would be much cheaper and easier to solder refrigeration systems, but they need to be leak free for years.

[@WesB1972]

I have used low temp silver solder on HVAC split systems and they have lasted the life of the system.

[@aaronlindberg7462]

Now i can rest easy about all those solder joints ive buried. Never been taught to braze.

[@TexasEngineer]

I want to see flex hoses, like to the water heater. Had a flex hose blow because of the water heater heat. Replaced with stainless. Go ahead and test the stainless and copper flex hoses too. This is a mission critical joint.

[@davidgapp1457]

Pressures on HVAC systems are considerably higher than domestic home water pressures. I nitrogen test hvac lines, usually up to twice the maximum operating pressure. Mostly done to detect leaks. On one occasion, due to operator error, I tested a system at nearly 1,000 PSI. As a result, the flare joint stripped and the pipe blew out. Quite a surprise as I was bubble testing the joint at the time! So it would be interesting to see some hvac piping tests, not least because the average hvac join I see is nowhere near as good as your typical plumber achieves on water pipes.

[@andrewveres3965]

Dude your going to hurt yourself and prematurely end the life of HVAC equipment don’t test it that high please from one hvac technician to another

[@rayzerot]

Dude the manuals tell you what pressure to test the systems at and it's never twice the maximum operating pressure

[@davidgapp1457]

​@@rayzerotI think it's very good you go by the manual and recommend you continue doing so. I design systems and I know exactly what the materials technology is capable of achieving. That includes tolerance to vibration, embrittlement, corrosion, unintended electrolysis, contamination, stress/fatigue cycling etc.. I watched this video mostly because they're fun and I'm assuming that's why most people watch them. Enjoy!

[@Parabellum-X]

What does it mean to 'fill the cup'? I went to school for HVAC two years ago, and started my own business. I braze with a #2 tip, using Acetylene & Oxygen. That's all I can tell you in regards to my brazing process. I'm really good at brazing, as there are never any leaks from my joints. But I've never heard the term 'filling the cup'.

[@erikbrantner4295]

Generally I only brase for refrigerant systems like HVAC, But neither of these will be efficient for type M copper or under freezing conditions

[@pittyman]

The solder is melting quite above 250 C. In it is added led to reduce the melting point (POK 60, for an example). If you use no led solder the temperatur is quite above 300 C. I have no idea what are you using in the USA, butbin Europe is a different picture.

[@brucestorey917]

Before you even started, I knew the failure would be the pipe and not the joints. I think most plumbers would know this.

[@RogerWakefield]

Just trying to show everyone….