Which is faster? Gen 1 Amnesia Snorlax or Gen 2 Curse Snorlax? Cross-Gen Race

Today, we're celebrating 1k subs on my second channel, GSC Pokemon Challenges, with a Snorlax Cross-gen race. Which beats their original Gen faster, Amnesia Snorlax in Gen 1 or Curse Snorlax in Gen 2?
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/ @rbypokemonchallenges
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Scoring system and rules below!
~~Rules~~
-Solo Challenge: No other Pokemon in battle, no items in battle, no glitches exploits (other than badge boost glitch)
-No Wild Pokemon Grinding
-No Rare Candies or itamins
-0 DVs/0 IVs
~~GSC Pokemon Challenges Community~~
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Patreon: patreon.com/user?u=83413986
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Email: [e-mail]
Twitter: / rbypokemon
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~~Scoring System~~
Scoring:
-Pokemon Starts with a score of 100 points.
-Minus 0.1 points per reset (10 resets = 1 point)
-Minus 0.25 points per optional battle (4 optional battles = 1 point)
-Minus 1 point per TM (Excluding Broken TMs)
-Minus 10 points per Broken TM (Double Team, Substitute, Mimic, Rest, Bide, Toxic)
For why these TMs are Broken, watch my Level 5 No EXP Solo Challenge Series, where even Bide helped Level 5 Pokemon Solo the ENTIRE GAME!
Playlist is here: • Level 5 Challenges
Process:
Every Pokemon goes through 3 separate tests:
1. Minimum Battles
2. No TMs
3. Optimization for score on the tier-list
Rules:
1. 0 DVs (Worst Possible Stats).
2. No Items in Battle.
3. No Stat Boosting Vitamins (HP Up, Carbos, Iron, Calcium, Protein).
4. No other Pokemon in battle (HM Mules allowed outside of battle).
5. Timer STARTS when I select New Game, and ENDS when the Champion is defeated.
6. Required Battles are the 65 battles that cannot be avoided without glitches (See Jrose11's original Minimum Battles video.
7. Pokedoll Glitch is a glitch and therefore banned.
8. Brock Through Walls is banned.
9. Badge Boost Glitch is allowed without restrictions.
10. Save states for routing and catching HM Pokemon only.
11. No wild encounters, except to catch HM pokemon.
~~Every Run has Unedited Live Commentary~~
You're watching it!
~~Pokemart~~
Changing Starters:
-- Software: pokehacks.dabomstew.com/rando...
-- Guide: • How to Start With Any ...
Software I Use:
-- Live RAM access: gamehook.io/
-- Recording: obsproject.com/
-- Photo & Video Editing: www.blackmagicdesign.com/prod...
#pokemoncrystal #pokémonchallenge #minimumbattles

[@joseponte5802]

I think that in the future, a better comparison would be the score instead of time. You don't have the same accumulated experience on gen 2 that you have in gen 1. Just an idea!

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Fair idea. I didn't go that route this time, but something to consider if I do more in the future

[@lisamariefan]

​​@@GSCPokemonChallengesSpeaking of gen 2, it has a small time disadvantage in every race from the animations for Pokemon sent out. Even at 4x speed I'm sure those add up quite a bit...

[@Medabee8]

​@@lisamariefanyeah turning off animations is a thing most people do 😅

[@KyleLeeman]

Man you’re PUMPING content out at the moment. Thank you!

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

More to come! I'd like to make more 😂

[@critik_l]

I’m going to assume Gen 1 wins for a lot of reasons. First, in gen 1 Special was a single stat. Boosting that stat by two stages is massive. Second, the badge boost glitch. Third, gen 1 is a much shorter game.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Al good points, but honestly I think only the third point mattered

[@philipmurphy2]

Congratulations on 1K Subs, GSC Pokémon Challenges

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Thank you! 😁

[@celticv]

Love video . Wtf splash on snorlax 😂 made me cry laughter it hurt lol.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

It is a legit event move in Gen 2... I have to wonder why lol Run is in progress 😂

[@nachomartinezbadenes6474]

I get that RBY won, but it's kind fo a flawed comparison with the 2 games haveng different run times, I think. Maybe divide run time by speedrun time(no doll skip for RBY)?

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Certainly an idea I could try in the future. Main point here is that even with lots of random luck in both runs, Gen 1 is generally faster, but this one felt much closer in practic than the Celebi vs Mew runs, and CurseLax felt overall more consistent as it wne through the game

[@ignisbad9158]

​@@GSCPokemonChallenges The thing is, without a baseline speed, it is a useless stat. Beating a 1 hour game in 1h 10 minutes is faster than beating a 3 hour game in 2 hours, yet the latter is so much better.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

This is a very fair point!

[@TsuikeNovaus]

Comparing the any% glitchless times for RBY vs GSC, I don't see a way that GSC will ever beat out RBY. It has worse overall TM's, a much larger timesink and battle requirement, and fewer glitches in it's favor. Without Yellow being at an actual disadvantage, Crystal will likely never win.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

This is basically the takeaway. As mentioned, the CurseLax felt overall more consistent throughout the run, except for Rival 3, Morty and Jasmine. Everything else was smooth. AmnesiaLax on the other hand, was inconsistent on Misty, Rival 5, Koga, Blaine, Rival 6, Lorelei and Lance. It got a lot of luck in good spots to allow it to win.

[@TsuikeNovaus]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges I'm glad, I'm curious how you will tackle the gap in the future because the concept is really interesting.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I will play around with some ideas. Updates in the future

[@destDN]

You say it yourself, without the rocket plotline Curselax would be better. If you don't want to switch to another comparison than time I'd suggest: Stop the timer in the Rocket section in Goldenrod, but grant the rby part an amount of rare candies that equal about the levels the gsc part gained during that time, apply those directly after gym 7. That way you should end up with about the same time for both games and create a somewhat fair comarison? Even if this race was much closer, I don't see gsc winning anything othervise.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Definitely. I did this one and the Mew vs Celebi and arrived at the same conclusion. Still, this one is much closer than the last one and so there is an argument that CurseLax was better overall. I'll consider how to balance that if I do more in the future

[@richarddill692]

Watching this, I feel like direct time comparisons between the generations aren't very accurate. Even with the post game being disregarded, GSC are still longer games with more content, than RBY. You're conclusion sums it up pretty well, if not for the Rocket events fluffing up the play time CurseLax would have had this hands-down.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I agree wholeheartedly. Considering how to compare in future runs

[@AthomeBurnerphone-cu7mm]

Wouldn't you be able to correct for the difference between the games by comparing the world record speeds for both? So, if, say, yellow speedrun clocks in at 20 minutes, and the other is 25, you could add 5 minutes to the time to yellow to make it a more apt comparison and get rid of the basic time difference between the two games? Anyways, love the videos.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

That is a good suggestion for cross-gen runs!

[@AthomeBurnerphone-cu7mm]

​@@GSCPokemonChallenges I only suggest it cause you were saying something about the bit of extra stuff you had to do in crystal. And it might not work, idk. Just an thought to try and make the playing field as close to even.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I have a couple of good ideas from the comments to try out. Will test and get back

[@AthomeBurnerphone-cu7mm]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges please don't take my suggestion as negative criticism, just a friendly suggestion. I'm also a content creator (different field, we aren't competing, lol), so I know how hard everything is. Love the content you put out. It's very high quality and very entertaining, and your enthusiasm and joy is infectious. Keep up the amazing work.

[@dr0g_Oakblood]

5:41 - without having finished, I think the messed up level curve in Crystal might throw Curse Lax for a loop, Amnesia Lax should probably do decently after the early game, and in the late game once it has the Blaine badge it should crush most of the late game unless its special moveset is worse than I remember. (Lmao I was right, Thunderbolt Ice Beam and Psychic? It should be fine) I don’t think Curse lax should do too terribly regardless, since it does keep some natural special bulk and Curse should allow for its lackluster def to keep up and IIRC it should have decent physical coverage. Stab Return should put in work. (Edit: Shadow Ball and Earthquake too? Should be fine)

[@dr0g_Oakblood]

1:11:25 - yeah not terribly shocked at the Amnesia one winning, but honestly, the Amnesia lax had more walls than I expected

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, I think AmnesiaLax was overall less consistent. Sabrina could have been tougher if Flash caused more misses. Gen 1 has a lot more lucky breaks than Gen 2

[@lucasrinaldi9909]

Yeah, Shadow Ball/Eathquake/Return Snorlax is such a good setup. Love it.

[@janeyth]

I was today years old when i learned fire doesn’t resist ice in gen 1

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, Gen 1 was weird..... Bug was super effective against Poison, Ghost didn't affect Psychic, Karate Chop was s Normal-type move..... Loads of ridiculous things that were fixed in Gen 2.

[@jacoboniaplay]

You probably don't need to set up quite so many Amnesias to sweep in the back half of the Kanto Elite Four. You were taking extra hits you didn't need to and probably would've had more consistency without some of the rounds lost to stat boosts.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Not sure. But I'm also setting them up defensively because Snorlax only has 65 base special

[@browncow5210]

Guessing Amnesia wins. Crystal has more battles, and Snorlax being slow means everyone else gets to slow things down and take a swing at him first. I'm not sure how much curse really helps in game anyways, since Lax already has such amazing power and bulk. On the other hand, Amnesia Lax's special is so bad that taking turns to use amnesia is going to be mandatory.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

All fair assessments

[@stevepierce227]

Something I was thinking about in gen 2 is genders when doing these runs. Since genders are based on DVs, the 0 DV runs for Pokemon that can have both genders will always be female, and the max DVs runs will always be male. Given that every gendered Pokemon can learn attract, and that Whitney's female Miltank has attract, this could be an additional difference in the runs. Not sure if attract would be added to the broken TMs list as it is pretty crazy, but it only works on a select number of pokemon in the game. From my playthroughs I have been kind of paying attention to gender, and it seems the rule of thumb is that the pokemon are the genders of the trainers, but there are exceptions like Jasmine's Steelix and Karen's Umbreon. I am curious about your thoughts on it.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I wasn't eve thinking about Attract. But just like I am not adjusting DVs to manipulate hidden power, I don't think I'd manipulate them for Attract. What I'm currently thinking (though it could change)is to allow every TM on Max DVs to establish possibility. If there is a really specific case where Attract with the opposite Gender MIGHT have allowed the Pokemon to complete the fight in question, I might simply test that as a follow-up. On 0 DVs runs, something like Attract would likely be considered a broken TM for tierlist purposes.

[@shadowtitanx3962]

Bruh. Gen 1 Miss with Double Kick 47:35

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

It happens. Gen 1 gonna Gen 1 😂

[@bateltheassistant]

Both Snorlaxs had thier rough spots ,while amnesialax had no control over badge boost manipulation in key battles ,in which it struggled ,like Rival 5 and Blaine. Curselax had to set up and became slower, making the battles overall slow in general, considering that the Rocket plot line in gsc is really long, so they add a lot of battles to Curselax . But that just shows how Curselax is really broken, because it had only about 6 minutes difference, which is not that bad considering the length of gsc.😊 I hope that gamehook could have had an access to the rocket plot line's ram and eliminate it completely in one click, in the same manner as with the trashcan puzzle Surge's gym . Or maybe you should make your own crystal rom in which the rocket plot line us not mandatory to complete the game, but that would require for you to create your own mapper. So I'm not sure how viable that option is for you.😊 By the way the thumbnail is really adorable, especially Cruselax's speech bubble.😂😂😂

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I think we may just have to pause the time at the Rocket timeline or adjust the GSC time to compensate. It's really fun to do cross-gen comparisons though. Some people recommended doing comps based on my score system rather than time, which is also a fair idea Thanks, I was having fun making that Snorlax 😂

[@bateltheassistant]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges Sounds like a plan to me. 😊

[@BoneBeastKimimaro]

"But because it was already a slow physical tank" Incorrect. Snorlax's HP and Sp. Defense are high. Its physical defense is failry low (65) by comparison. It's still very tanky regardless thanks to its high HP, of course, but I can't leave this detail unchecked. Curse on Snorlax does help it fix up its bad defense though so it's still good.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

That's kind of the point. It has massive HP, SCD, and moves like Curse simply make it into the slow tank that it is supposed to be. This is where it's much better than something like say an Onix - all that Defense is useless without HP

[@bitterzombie]

Aint no rest for the wicked

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

No rest in this one at all 😂

[@d.a.d.-ohgosh]

Lol Magicaids did the ad for Bloodline who I'm subscribed to. So ridiculous lololol

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

KZbin ads be trolling?

[@d.a.d.-ohgosh]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges they do be trolling indeed

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Damn, I just set them by turning ads on, but I will see if I can improve the placements.... Can't control what ads get shown though 😂

[@d.a.d.-ohgosh]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges ur good man. I thought it was hilarious! I love Magicaids! Super unexpected to hear an ad for an online game by a MTG KZbinr on a Pokemon channel lol! Also keep up the good work on RBY and GSC gaming! You provide a unique angle to solo runs and it's dope. I love eggsceptional, Scott, and Squidgy. Despite all being old Pokemon game solo run KZbinrs you all offer something very unique and enjoyable!

[@johncalabro8710]

Another idea. In crystal Calm mind slowbro vs curse slowking. Reason slowbro higher defence means calm mind works better and slowking high special defence on curse

[@thewisemanpaul]

Does He claim the mind of the opposition

[@johncalabro8710]

@@thewisemanpaul haha yeah I just saw the misspelling. I meant calm mind.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

We can claim minds too 😂

[@BlueCardGanks592]

You didn’t oneshot the sandslash in rival fival because you crit which eliminated your boosts. Most the time you would have won that battle

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

For sur. I missed that in real-time

[@franslair2199]

RBY OU Lax doesn't use amnesia all that often, the main set you are going to see on ladder is probably reflect rest plus 2 attacks

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

True, but for a solo run you would absolutely use it in Gen 1

[@franslair2199]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges no doubt, just saying that's not the set that makes snorlax so dominant

[@dr0g_Oakblood]

38:03 - I’d argue that Hidden Power is not a great strategy for 0DV runs since it is a differing variable if you have a mon that isn’t 0DV, so it’s not a 1:1 applicable result.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I can understand that to some degree. I used it here in lieu of Dynamic Punch, which would have gotten through eventually, but is just so inaccurate

[@BobtheExile]

What happened to the audio at 20:30? The video went silent for a few seconds

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Working on fixing that right now. Hold tight

[@BobtheExile]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges Thank you kindly

[@thetest6784]

Not a bad run. I would concider knocking out mons that can confuse, Sandattack or status you before setting up and to do it on a easier mon. Also the Charakters add up more time with amnesialax than curselax. Like just add alax and clax to keep it the same. Sometimes early game Training makes the endgame easier specialy when you play with 0 dvs just because of the exp points for early levels. Other than that well done.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Cheers, in some cases it was really hard to setup with CurseLax, especially on Ghosts with Curse, but I need to find some better spots. Understand about characters, but if anything it made this closer. Definitely agree early levels help in some spots.

[@thetest6784]

@GSCPokemonChallenges I agree setting up on ghosts is super annoying. But as a example with Blaine and ninetales, I would have knocked out the fox and sett up on the firehorse. Would have probably made it more consistent with a lax.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

For sure. I think a big factor there is just how random his entire team is in Yellow and they all seem to Crit thanks to their good speed

[@altheapolyam]

For me, even if gen 1 snorlax finished first, gen 2 snorlax was generally faster. Johto takes longer to beat than Kanto, and Gen 1 Snorlax was harder to play around

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I can agree with this sentiment. CurseLax felt better overall

[@Br0oham]

Honestly, I don't think Rest would make a difference between the two Snorlax, I think it'd make them both perform much better on the basis that just setting up to +X and using your 1 move that buffs will never be as fast as playing them the way they actually benefit from being played

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

The goal was really to compare Curse and Amnesia. Snorlax is at his best as a mixed attacker with strong setup and Rest to recover in battle.

[@Br0oham]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges I can see that, I do feel most people would excuse using it as an anti-poison/paralyze lose condition though, it would have made it a bit less rng punishing for you to do at least

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

For sure. I will do a proper run of each in their version in separate videos with "optimal" strtegy

[@davidlee2052]

Nice

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Thanks

[@rjthepoet500]

amnesia lax is my prediction.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Sounds legit

[@johncalabro8710]

I think if you could skip the Team Rocket radio tower part in Gen 2 it would make it a closer race. That part is the worst. It is the number one reason why I don't like Crystal as much.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I agree. That part is so time consuming and basically strong mons are just OHKOing everything anyway

[@Zalera44]

Before I've watched to whole video: gen 1 wins cuz badge boost glitch

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Fair guess! LGLG!

[@obambagaming1467]

Comparing GSC with RBY is really unfair. GSC is actually longer than RBY, even without the postgame, because of the Rocket plotline, just like you said. I think those comparisons work better if its the same game.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

For sure. We have a lot of good ideas from other commenters on some ways to compensate for the time differential. In the Celebi vs. Mew cross-gen, I compared the final results if you have Celebi back the time lost on the Rocket storyline for example.

[@boybrushedred18]

For gen 1, a suggestion would be to use a rare candy before each e4 member. Just so you don't level up in battle and you won't lose the extra badge boosts.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I specifically banned Rare Candies in the files for this one. in other runs on RBY Pokemon Challenges, I do that quite often though

[@commanderbly3344]

Amnesia lax since it's faster

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Curse does lower speed 😂

[@veghesther3204]

IMHO both those moves kind of SUCK so I won't teach it EITHER one so I won't ever have it use Amnesia/Curse EVER but Gen 1 is still the EASIER game of the 2.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Agree with that to some degree. I think most of the trainers are actually much easier in Gen 2, since levels are smoother.

[@veghesther3204]

EXCEPT red's Pokemon are SO over leveled that when NOT doing a SOLO run I didn't even HAVE lv 65 Pokemon against his LV 85 to lv 90+ ones that's why even SOLO the Gen 1 games are so much easier since the highest leveled Pokemon battle in Gen 1 doesn't really even top lv 80.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Fact. The Red fight with Mewtwo on Minimum Battles was pretty tough

[@EmilyBodoo]

I do not understand this. Isn't the point of the video to compare snorlax in gen 1 to snorlax in gen 2? Why did you change the learnsets and movesets? I think that if snorlax in gen 1 has amnesia, headbutt and rest at level 1, when snorlax in gen 2 only has tackle at level 1, you should have played around that and not change things. The snorlaxes you are comparing are not real, they are not in the unmodified game.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

The point is to compare the effectiveness of Curse in Gen 2 to Amnesia in Gen 1 for Snorlax. Watergun and Curse are both TMs that are transferrable with Pokemon Stadium 2, so you could legit have both movesets after beating Rival 1

[@EmilyBodoo]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges I accept this argument, but it still looks strange to me. Firstly, I think that in the future, if you do something like this, you should better explain the reasons for it and how to achieve it "legally", because not everyone knows about such things. Secondly, if the point is to compare builds, then why use different games? Wouldn't it be more objective to do this in the same game for both builds? Perhaps the special split is important to you, but still, I think it would be more interesting to create these builds while in the game itself, because curse also exists as a TM in gen 2, so this is also possible. It would make more of a difference between them, at least. Perhaps, in the end, the problem is that the video simply did not live up to my personal expectations.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

It's all fair feedback. This video is more a celebration that I got the second channel to 1k subs by putting a run from my Gen 1 channel up against one from my Gen 2 channel. I think the format and presentation has a lot of room to improve. I agree that in general same game comps are simplest. Thank you for taking the time to give good feedback!