Which of Tolkien's Stories Are Part of the Middle-Earth “Canon?”

The question of what counts as "canon" in Tolkien's Middle-earth writings is thorny and convoluted, and devolves pretty quickly into guesswork, but let's see if we can narrow things down a bit.
Hello Future Me's video on the unreliable narrator is here: • Why Lord of the Rings ...
For my video on the Hobbit retcon, click here: • The Hobbit Retcon
And for the translation conceit, click here: • The "Translation" of t...
Other Links:
Rumble at rumble.com/c/c...
Odysee: odysee.com/@To...
Twitter: / jrrtlore
Patreon: www.patreon.com/tolkiengeek

[@VoiceofGeekdom]

Great breakdown Joshua! Pretty sure In Deep Geek was the other channel you were thinking of that covered the 'unreliable narrator' issue (maybe others as well -- but Tim and Robert released their videos within a couple of days of one another, if I remember correctly!). I talked to Prof. Corey Olsen (who you mentioned several times) about the concept of 'canon' in Tolkien's legendarium, on his 'Other Hands and Minds' podcast recently, for those that may be interested in this issue. 🙂

[@GirlNextGondor]

Me: careful attention must be paid to the context of a piece's composition, Tolkien's explicit and implicit intent, and any editorial alterations. Also me: Canon is a lie; all realities are valid. Sauron is a giant cat and Gil-galad is a composite clone of Finrod, Fingon, and Orodreth who was grown in a vat. Excellent video; you laid out a ridiculously complicated question with admirable clarity. Instead of headcanon, I extend the Biblical metaphor and use deuterocanon to distinguish what one thinks "really happened" from the preferred version.

[@thebeautyloftpt]

Hey ! , Girl Next Gondor !, Can you say hi to me :) , I'm a massive fan of your. Channel my KZbin history is endless haha 🤣, I. I go thru half a day with your vids,I like your unique take on the Lore , I loved your Magia and goittia, sorry for the misspelling. I have a common sense theory about the issue of the Orks Mortality that Tolkien never explained before he passed . But I'm sure it's been thought of before but I don't see it anywhere ever !, I was wondering if I can talk to you about it ?. And you will be able to tell me if it's feasible or where I am hitting a brick wall I'm not seeing lol.

[@maximus3160]

That might be the dumbest thing I've heard all day. All realities are not valid. Tolkien wrote what he wrote. What he didn't write is "all realities".

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

@@maximus3160 dude, context. She’s specifically referring to other things Tolkien wrote (Sauron = Tevildo, prince of cats; pretty sure the cloning but is just a joke).

[@GirlNextGondor]

@@TolkienLorePodcast Who, me? Joke about Tolkien? 🤣

[@thebeautyloftpt]

@@maximus3160 lol , do you know who your talking to ?, If you don't agree , it seems to me you took a simplified out of context version of what girlnextgondor said ?. But either say can you explain it more clearly for me , or don't be so nasty in the reply as you made yourself look foolish, there are imo a ✋ full of Tolkien channels on KZbin of the quality of GNGNDRS so you should at least be respectful in your reply, as you should with anyone, but I would stake my hair on it ( I like my hair 🤣) that she really isn't concerned by your reply at all, it definitely annoyed me the more haha

[@larrykuenning5754]

I think the criterion of "Tolkien's final intention" doesn't really work as an absolute in determining canon. This is especially obvious in dealing with the "Myths Transformed" section of _Morgoth's Ring_, where Tolkien tries to make his legendarium consistent with real-world astronomy and therefore has to eliminate the whole story of the making of the sun and moon after the death of the Two Trees. In itself this greatly disturbs the earliest stages of the history, to such an extent that Tolkien was never able to fully work out a new version. But the problem goes further than that, because if he wants to be consistent with real-world astronomy about the sun and the moon, he should also do so about the planet Venus. Yet this would destroy the entire story of Earendil becoming the Morning and Evening Star, and therefore the light of Earendil's star being caught in Galadriel's glass and given to Frodo. This would destroy a major bridge between the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings: "We're in the same tale still," says Sam because of the glass. I think it's better to follow Tolkien's usual practice of treating his published works as "authoritative" in some sense, and accept that this means some of his late intentions have to be canceled out as unworkable within the established context.

[@raydavison4288]

Or it could be taken as an allegory with a basis in fact. Much of LOTR is related to us by rustics who wouldn't know a lot of science. To them, the craftsmanship of the elves is magic. But, LOTR.is a story written by one man. As such, there is a limit to how far you can go in tnterpretation even though Tolkien's universe is vast.

[@Tar-Elenion]

The extent sun and moon, before the death of the Two Trees is in both Lord of the Rings, and in The Hobbit (the Hobbit was deliberately revised, by Tolkien, to include it).

[@jeffnorris7592]

Not Jeff here, with a question: What about Tolkien's famous letters? On one hand, he is answering questions from readers and elaborating on points in the published stories. My own bias is that I find this so absolutely charming that I would not discard them! On the other hand, these letters as I understand them were not intended for any kind of publication or issuance. Since he was well known to be constantly revising his work, it is also possible that with time these would also not be definitive "answers". The reason that I ask is that more and more I'm seeing them quoted to back up more analytical lore videos.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

I’d tend to count them as “canon” in the sense that if he had written the info into a story, it would be consistent with what he put in the letters.

[@skatemetrix]

It's all canon- apparently Tolkien "discovered" lost texts and translated them. Even the four/five Silmarillions are canon: Lost Tales Silmarillion was recorded by the man known as Elfwine. 1930 Silmarillion was the "complete" version and recorded by someone else. 1937 Silmarillion was a larger version but incomplete because whoever recorded it either never finished it or the end bits got "lost". Early 1950s Silmarillion was devised by High Elves in Middle Earth but whoever found them, Man or Hobbit, discovered only the intro and the first half. 1977 Silmarillion was the one recorded by Bilbo Baggins, under the title of the Red Book of Westmarch, after translating various Eldar tales. Where possible he added characters in Lord of the Rings, such as Galadriel, and inserted them into the Eldar tales. All Silmarillion versions, except for early 1950s Silmarillion, were interpreted and translated by either Men or Hobbits, these were based on Eldar tales which came from two sources: the Elves who stayed on Middle Earth and the Noldor who returned to Middle Earth. This is why the Valinor sections are lighter on detail and all events between the Elves arriving in Valinor and the Noldor leaving Valinor are known ONLY because of the Noldor who arrived in Beleriand. It's also why the first kinslaying is glossed over since the Noldor would be extremely reluctant to reveal the full extent of brutal massacre of the Teleri in Alqualonde, besides the Noldor arriving in Middle Earth may not know the full details. Early 1950s Silmarillion, being so different, had likely two primary sources: Glorfindel who was sent back to Middle Earth during the 2nd age and the Istari who were sent to Middle Earth during the 2nd and 3rd ages. This is why it is radically different and why the Valinor sections are so detailed because at last some Elves on Middle Earth discovered a more detailed history which was not biased by the Noldor. That's my "in-universe" explanation for the mess that is all of Tolkien's works outside of the Hobbit and LOTR.

[@thebeautyloftpt]

I absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE this opinion and share it after reading your view, I mean the core of what you say is indeed factual not just an opinion, it only travels towards what you Assume with common sense the most plausible explanations of the potential authors using Real middle earth events. I will screenshot your comment and always keep that in mind , I very very very rarely do this , only if It follows the most plausible explanations to the legendarium and how Tolkien's style of world building was written, as by the LOTR you can Just tell out of the only possible theories which one he would have thought correct , as he was EXTREMELY decisive in his views of the legendarium, it seems he wasn't at all decisive to most I realise , and that he was all over the place , but I don't think so for a second , it's just when you have built "discovered" 😉 such a gargantuan legendarium, over his life , of course their will be inconsistencies and I don't think he had any trouble in deciding the way forward , as you said he wrote as if it was revealed to him ( in a way the final Human translation of the found ancient texts ) , not his own story he feels he can choose what happens. But I think the mass audience's confuse indecision for correct continuity, at the point Tolkien was at I his world , any amendments, additions , "discoveries" made, would have all had such a HUGE domino ( butterfly 🦋 ) effect on previous publishings, some it would enhance and reveal the "ahhh this makes total sense now" yet at the same time it would almost ALWAYS conflict with a totally different past ot future event. So it must have been like a time traveller going to the past to try and change what happened, only to find that you have created a ripple in time that has unforseen circumstances and you go and try to then fix that repurcussions, and so on and so on .... We've all seen movies like this lol , it must have been an impossible task for him. I do wish that he had a grandson of daughter who was as interested in his works like Christopher was, they wouldn't even need to be an author !, Just have a fantastic mind and understanding of what their grandfather would want to do , and work with a modern fantasy writer who he/she could dictate to and the ghost Author accurately conveys their thought into the style of writing Tolkien used. I would say Branden Sanderson would be a great choice but ONLY as a ghost writer for a truly invested Tolkien family member, with zero personal embellishment lol. Then they could use all the Information we have from JRR himself and use the most in keeping to flesh out the silmarilian fully, and yes writings would need to be written to bridge the information chosen together like skillfully repairing a rich tapestry to its full glory , but I'm sure it could be done ? . Sorry if I've rambled and repeated myself, and not always made sense, I have ADHD , BUT I TRIED MY BEST I PROMISE 🤣

[@AragornGhost15]

As an student of History, recorded History really works like this and it's really interesting

[@skatemetrix]

@@thebeautyloftpt It's just an opinion of mine and the best in-universe explanation I think of. I personally believe that had Tolkien been able to or given the chance (see all the issues he had with publishing the Silmarillion + LOTR in the early 1950s) he would have finished the Silmarillion and given us the version seen in Morgoth's Ring and The War of the Jewels (History of Middle Volumes 10 and 11), the updated Fall of Gondolin and perhaps even an updated Tale of Beren and Luthien, those would be canon. If that had been the case we would not be here discussing other versions. But all those other versions are fun to read, especially the 1910s-1920s Lost Tales version which is Tolkien at his most imaginative.

[@thebeautyloftpt]

@@skatemetrix I still haven't listened to Morgothes ring it's next after my second silmarilian listen ATM , I know reading is a totally enveloping experience as I used to read so much , but as I've got older , I say older I'm only 31 lol 🤣, but my ADHD has gotten worse not better and now reading feels like a struggle not the escape it once was , so I listen to audio books now, plus also still getting used to wearing glasses and those little f****s keep falling off lol.

[@Barbossa778]

Head canon is more the personal interpretation of events or concepts that the author doesn’t elaborate on based on context clues. It’s not just pure fan fiction, that’s entirely separate. I definitely see how they can bleed together though

[@alanpennie8013]

Yes that's right. "Headcanon" is an attempt to correct inconsistencies and gaps in the published text.

[@Hopium500]

Anything written by Tolkien is Canon. The only things I wouldn't consider Canon are things like the video games and the upcoming thing on Amazon.

[@Golux5]

Anything written by J. R. R. Tolkien is canon. Anything edited by Christopher Tolkien is includable in canon but may be excluded. Everything else is fan fiction.

[@thegorgon7063]

Nature of Middle Earth doesn't say anything about female dwarfs having beards (only male) yet that is one thing some people get upset about in the Amazon series...

[@Anu_Sol]

@@thegorgon7063 The following passage is from The Lord of the Rings Appendices: "Dís was the daughter of Thráin II. She is the only dwarf-woman named in these histories. It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need, They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone'." Female Dwarves definitely had beards.

[@thegorgon7063]

@@Anu_Sol and in the Nature of Middle Earth when talking of beards Tolkien wrote "all male dwarves had them" if female dwarves had them then surely that would have been mentioned?

[@Tar-Elenion]

@@thegorgon7063 Why?

[@beatleblev]

The lack of hard canon and the narrative frame are two of the best Legendarium conceits. It makes the story more lifelike and lived in. In general, I am with you on the Hobbit, LotR, and the Silmarillion as the core and a huge collection of narratives that are analogous to incomplete archaeological manuscripts. Would I prefer that Tolkien quit his day job and focused on his Legendarium of course, but I am also so thankful that Christopher put so much effort into preserving all of the essays, bits, and letters that answer questions and add detail to the story of Ea. I think an publisher worthy of the title would press for the Silmarillion content to be expanded on and released in several volumes. The first would be the Ainulindale, the Valaquenta (edited down) and the War of the Jewels sans all the stories that get their own volume like the Children of Hurin, Beren and Luthien, The Fall of Gondolin, and the Akallabeth. There is a part of the Legendarium where the version I prefer is not the same as the one that I think is more accurate to the story. That is the legend and fate of the Blue Wizards. I prefer the story of Morinehtar and Rómestámo, but think that the truth is probably closer to the fate of Alatar and Pallando. Why? Because their failure echoes the fate of the rest of the Istari. All of the original Istari fail in their task to unite the Free People and direct their victory over Sauron. Only Gandalf is faithful to the task and his sacrifice to save the Fellowship is accepted by Eru and he is enhanced and sent back as the White. As head canon, I prefer that Pallando be of the people of Namo. A doom wizard sounds pretty dope. Also, if Ulmo attended office meetings more than once an Age he might have gotten an Istar representative too. All of the above sets the Legendarium apart from the genre of books that it inspired.

[@thebeautyloftpt]

I love your explanation!, In my head cannon , putting aside for a moment the blue wizards failure or partial success , I like to think the names of the blue wizards names as all accurate, I think Alatar & Pallendo are their Maia names, such as Ollorin, Cumumo , Awendil, & then I think their secondary names are what the men of the East simply called them , Morinatar - Darkness Slayer & Romestamos - East Helper, their given names in Arda by the children of Eru, such as Gandalf , Mithrandir , Tharkune? - Suruman - Radagast ect ... Anyone have an opinion on this ?, Its bit cannon but seems common sense to follow the cannon of the other Istari. ?

[@hendrikm9569]

About the House of Finrod issue: In the Silmarillion is the short Story of the Human House of Haleth, which originally had a different name, but because Haleth was so Badass, the house took her name. Her Brother was also a member of her house though, even though he obviously is not a child of hers. Maybe the House of Finrod thing is best viewed through a similar lense: While it might not be direct descendants from Finrod, they still are from the same House as Finrod, and because Finrod is pretty much perfect, and one of the greatest Members of his house, they call it the house of Finrod. From how I see it, LotR and the Hobbit are our basis for what is canon, obviously, and the Silmarillion doesn't contradict those in any major way, that couldn't have happened to Tolkien in the same way (see first and second edition LotR), and it is the latest more or less finished version of the story, therefore, it should be seen as canon. Sure, one could say just the latest versions, but that would leave you with quite the unfinished tale (see what I did there...) which would leave more questions than answers. If we look at it from the Bible Point of view: Chirstopher Tolkien decided, with his best intentions, and education, what should be the final canon, just like a lot of priests decided, what will be bible canon, hundreds of years after Jesus died. Now, is the bible canon exactly what Jesus would want? Probably not, but it is the version, that some of the most educated people on the topic decided, is the most likely. And to see Christopher Tolkien in that way, seems plausible to me, placing the published Silmarillion solidly in canon, even though, it probably isn't exactly how JRR Tolkien would have published it, had he been able to finish it. That means, while our core of canon is The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion also is definitely canon. Going on from this main canon, everything else can be considered "sidecanon", if it doesn't contradict our main canon, however, if two pieces of sidecanon contradict each other, I would give the edge to the one written later. Examples: The Children of Hurin: Adds a lot of details, doesn't contradict the main canon: definitely sidecanon. The Lay of Leithian: Adds a lot of detail, however, is wrong about the Finrod ancestry: details are sidecanon, except for the non canon family tree. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth: Doesn't contradict main canon: Definitely Sidecanon.

[@CounciloftheRings]

Excellent video mellon nin! It's a very fascinating topic that many fans find confusing, but at the same time it's important to get right especially in discussions concerning lore. 👌

[@anarionelendili8961]

I am pretty much where you are with the canon, too. Thanks for the video!

[@brethilnen]

Great video, now i want to make a chart showing what is canon and what is not

[@quaffdowngin]

Good luck

[@joannemoore3976]

Interesting topic. The unreliable narrator device seems so typically Tolkien, and is another reason the created world feels so rich and real. And I think on some level Tolkien really felt that he was translating and refining something already in existence, which came to him as 'given things' as he put it, not from a manuscript but from the imaginative world. Sometimes Tolkien is finding out alongside us.

[@SuperCory1973]

I remember once hearing a Tolkien scholar say, "Tolkien had his first ideas, his last ideas, and his good ideas. And those aren't all the same thing." I like that framing because it gives me leeway to pick and choose which parts on the margins of the legendarium work for me. Personally, I hate the idea that Gil-galad is the son of Orodreth, who, in that version of the story is actually Finrod's nephew instead of his brother, and really prefer him to be the son of Fingon. I have a hard time buying that Orodreth's son would have the standing to be High King. I also like the idea that Gil-galad was born in Beleriand and is only just older than Elrond's generation instead of being born in Valinor. It gives his story more texture, imo. I feel the same way about Elven reincarnation. I ignore the idea personally. It lowers the stakes and seems to exist mostly because Tolkien didn't like that he had reused the name Glorfindel. I mean, why would Feanor be so upset that Melkor murdered Finwe if the Valar could just bring him back?

[@aesir1ases64]

Hmm I am not sure if at that time Feanor knew about reincarnation, since Finwe was the first to be murdered in Valinor. But still I guess it does seem to lower the standards, I personally not fan of that the same way I dont like that humans go to the Hall of Mandos as well.

[@Peter-tg9zv]

I stacked, The Hobbit, the LOTR, The Silmarillion, and The Children of Hurin. That’s my Tolkien Canon. Would be great if Beren And Luthien and The Fall of Gondolin were completed into actual stories someday.

[@Lothiril]

For me, Canon is determined through a couple of factors: - basis: last published version by JRR Tolkien - coherence with these texts - impact of change on these texts - JRR Tolkien's last intention - available material This means that on the basis of what Tolkien had published, I try to arrange my headcanon based on which of his posthumously published texts fit with the existing texts. Among those, I try to go for Tolkien's "last intention". This means for example that even though it's probably one of Tolkien's last ideas, the version of Celeborn being one of the Falmari doesn't fit since he's clearly Sindarin in the published texts. However, if it's a small thing with basically no impact, like the change of a birthday a couple of years back or fourth for Arwen for example, then I think "last intention" can overrule the "published" rule. I think it's acceptable if it helps to make the universe as a whole more coherent, and it's easy to imagine that Tolkien would have corrected one or two tiny dates in a later edition of LOTR. But the available material comes into play as well: if there is a large amount of text written for a version, but Tolkien's updated thoughts on this is just a few notes, I tend to go for the part that is more fleshed out. This mainly applies to the flat vs round world discussion, because the flat world incl. the history of the sun is such an integral part of most of the stories that it's hard to go for Tolkien's last intention here completely. This is probably mainly for my own satisfaction, because I don't want to have to ignore large amounts of texts for a couple of lines on ideas that were never really integrated into the overall story.

[@sophiejones3554]

This is the wrong question. Tolkien said himself that his intention was to create mythology. Mythology by definition, does not have such a thing as a “correct” version. It evolves in the telling and retelling. The concept of “canon” simply does not apply here. Tolkien’s thoughts on his work should be read (indeed, I hope they become more widely known): but they are just that, his thoughts. There’s a lot in his texts that he very obviously didn’t think about (like the plothole wherein Aragorn doesn’t read the password off the Moria Gates). Very few texts have been picked over as much as LotR: it is probably the third most examined text EVER, after the Bible, and the collected works of Shakespeare. Trust me, we’ve noticed stuff that Tolkien did not mean to include (but definitely did).

[@jankrizkovsky9446]

This will be a useful and comprehensive reference video to point people to when they ask about canon, good work.

[@thebrotherskrynn]

Fantastic video, agree on every point regarding Tolkien's canon, for me it is also the Silmarillion (though the Children of Hurin novel I include as canon due to it being how Christopher and maybe JRRT intended the tale), Hobbit & LOTR stories as they are supreme in terms of canon, along with maybe the Dagor Daggorath (as I really do wish it was included). That's it. I don't like to go too far beyond Tolkien or Christopher's intent. Like you don't have the energy to try to skim through all the material to decide, strike or include in continuity. Mostly I stick with what JRRT & Christopher stated is canon. I have the same relationship with Howard's Conan universe, only what Howard wrote is canon to my mind. The rest is mostly fanfiction (no offence intended towards later authors but they are not the og author). Everyone appears this week to have gotten caught up in talking about canon, from Philosopher Games and I, to you, so that now I'm getting exhausted by the topic. So glad I found this video and that you addressed it so well, better than what I could have done (as you always seem to do with JRRT topics lol).

[@katherineneville5304]

My head-canon consists of unexplained things I filled in for myself during the decade when all I had was the Appendices. For example, what was Aragorn doing when he went "on a journey of his own" in the summer before the meeting in Bree. Or what was Rosie doing during the Ruffian Occupation. Some of those things were eventually filled in through the letters and HoMe, but not all. I enjoy hearing others' head canon of this sort, as it generally reflects their take on various characters. It's like art work--not every depiction of Tom Bombadil will match everyone's imagination, but a good one will add something to the cauldron.

[@GreatGreebo]

Glad I found your channel….EXCELLENT break down of Tolkien canon. I am in the same camp as you with The Hobbit, LotR and The Silmarillion being considered ‘canon’ with a few small exception like Gil-Galad being Orodreth’s son etc. (Also, I’m cool with all Christopher Tolkien’s attempts to bring his father’s unpublished works to print; He was his fathers most staunch supporter and the greatest defender of Middle Earth Lore. (Compared against what Brian Herbert did with The Dune series after his father died, Christopher is a canon publishing machine IMO) Thank you for this video.

[@NATHANOLOGY]

Thank you so much for making this one!

[@elfdream2007]

Personally I think of it all as mythology and mythologies can be messy.

[@phoule76]

One does not simply acquire the ring as a gift, Bilbo.

[@Pandaemoni]

I am comfortable not thinking too hard about "canon." Even within Lord of the Rings, things like the clearly can't be 100% accurate (like a stenographer's record of what they said), and one of the points of the History of Middle Earth is to look at how the writings of Middle Earth changed over decades of Tolkien thinking and writing about the world. Then, as you note, even Tolkien saw some inconsistencies and so referred to earlier versions or accounts as "rumors" (like, for example, in early versions the dwarves were serving Morgoth, then later it was stated that was a rumor made by those who hated dwarves). I am not even sure, with the whole "Death of the Author" that later writings trump earlier ones, let alone whether Tolkien's intent trumps what has been published. Even actual, real world history has a lot open areas for debate about what "really happened," so I am pretty comfortable just enjoying all of the possibilities for Tolkien's world that he fleshed out over time. I rather like the Dagor Dagorath, for example, and I've read pretty convincing arguments that Tolkien changed his ming about that. That's fine, but I am still prone to think about that more than I do the "there are no prophecies about the end of Arda, and no one knows what will happen in the long term to the world" version we get in the Silmarillion.

[@quaffdowngin]

I’m totally down with that. I love it all. Even the unending contradictions. The second I came across the Dagor Dagorath, I said out loud HOLY S***!!!! It will always be my head canon ending, but I can wholeheartedly accept Christopher’s interpretation at the end of the Silmarillion at the same time. It’s all about imagination!

[@Steven_Edwards]

I think it's important to remember also that he didn't write the books from the point of view of his own writing's being authoritative, but that he discovered them, not in the sense that he discovered them from Middle Earth, but that he was inspired by God and discovered this imaginary world and it was revelation to him as a good work. I don't think he intended this, but you see this a lot in his letters where he's like, 'I think this happened' or 'I believe' to questions and unfinished parts, as he was still 'discovering' the truth. In another franchise, one of the authors (of which there were many) wrote that he believed there was only one story out there, one 'real' story, but like historians they each wrote from their own perspective and what was revealed to them, they were all simply chroniclers of the 'real' story, which no one every really knows, we just have the best attempt by the author to tell the story as best they can.

[@serene-illusion]

Loser modern historians: "Based on carbon dating and several scriptures by different individuals of the time-" Classic pre-modern historians: "It was revealed to me in a dream."

[@jonathonfrazier6622]

I thought the Silmarrillion was translated by Bilbo from elvish sources during his stay in Rivendell.

[@flameofudun8447]

Great video! What we mean by cannon and how we define it is an important topic and I think this video is an exceptional break down of the issues and nuance involved. The unreliable narrator is a fun Tolkien idea to explore. The fact that Tolkien spent his entire life working to perfect his world speaks to the value he put into cannon. I like that you spent the time to illuminate the topic of cannon and Tolkien in a way that is unique to his literary work.

[@UngKristen]

I could dig it if that first Hobbit was in canon with the LoTR and Gollum just realized he was being careless with the thing he loved

[@kimwelch4652]

The concept of canon is a volatile and fuzzy concept especially when applied to literature. Canon really applies to a work as a whole, but collapses when spread over multiple works. Even parts of a series often fail to follow any real canon or retcon previous works. The LOTR is one work even though it published as a series. The canon of LOTR is not completely compatible with the canon of the Hobbit, and, in fact, the LOTR text retcons the Hobbit on several points. The Silmarillion is not one work, but a collection of notes and stories originally not meant for publication. While the Silmarillion does act as the backdrop of the LOTR the canon of the Silmarillion stories are not completely compatible with each other much less the Hobbit or the LOTR. Things get worse when you add the author’s later commentary which is most certainly retcon material fabricated to answer uncomfortable questions in a comfortable way, or as in the case of J. K. Rowling to troll the readers. My advice is to enjoy the stories as they are and throw canon in the garbage where it belongs. Each story, movie or series should stand on their own merits or not at all. No world is completely coherent, not even the real one.

[@andygreen7314]

Arguing over what is Canon about a mythos is like disappearing up your own fundament. Tolkien knew this that's why there are so many threads of the same story that lead nowhere wrap up in themselves and contradict each other, however this does not make them useless they still form part of the overall web, define it, give it substance and strength. Tolkein himself could not explain the origin of the orcs, the number of Balrogs, the nature of Tom Bomberdil, Goldberry, the end of Arda, the Dagor Dagorath, the fate of Melkor/Morgoth, the origin of Ungoliant.. etc, etc, etc. It is enough to know the broad strokes and outline of the story and colour it as you see fit. I mean if you wish you could go completely anywhere with the story, after all you what to limit yourself to the idea that when the Ainur sang the Universe into being they only sang into existence one realm/world (Arda) and Eru sent only a handful of them to shape it. What did the rest do sit around and watch it, maybe hold back the void and creatures like Ungoliant from devouring it? What did the Elves and the Valar do on valinor for the rest of Ardas existence, sit around in harmonious stupor for milenia forgetting Middle Earth existed. What about the fate of Dwarves, Eru breathed life into them where did they go, not to the halls of Mandos, Valinor, nor did their spirits as far as is written leave Arda as men's spirits could. Then you have to contend with the fact that if everything Melkor did only furthered Eru's design, then you confront the fact that Melkor himself only followed Erus plan and his rebellion and ensuring conflict and misery was also by Eru's design/will. Tolkein himself described fantasies as cauldrons of story, a pot of soup made up of collection of all stories simmering over time that you don't retell verbatim but you add your own flavours and spices to. So stop wasting time arguing about what is canon and not canon. There is a story or many versions of a story that Tolkein gave us which contains the ideas and flavours taken from a cauldron of other stories exactly what is in your bowl will not be identical to someone else's bowl and you may add seasoning and other ingredients to taste. As long as the soup nourishes you it has done it's job.

[@radagast7200]

Leaf by Niggle isn't, but I feel it gives pretty good insight into what exactly the "gift of men" was suppose to be.

[@JonPITBZN]

"Why should I care about your headcanon if you just made it up for your own private enjoyment?" Nobody's saying that you necessarily should. Some fans enjoy them, is all.

[@bjdenil]

Bilbo won the ring vs Bilbo found the ring... tells us a lot here about how Tolkien thought about it. (You got there) A+ on this! Great video! Great Explanation!

[@Tar-Elenion]

"'How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuiviénen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?' " This is the "line".

[@VatticTV]

I don't feel the need to decide what is or isn't canon. It's more interesting to acknowledge the vagaries.

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

This is interesting as ever. I would probably include other things in the canon. Tom Bombadil for example. I could argue that Smith of Wooton Major, is a tale of middle earth as it has become,I would also include Farmer Giles and Leaf by Niggle in this category. I could just about make a case for the Father Christmas stuff, his view was that the legendarium had begun to take it over. Clearly Beowulf and Beothnoth is not middle earth canon, the same can be said for Gudrun. Otherwise I personally find it difficult to exclude anything he wrote, but the works published after his death, can be considered as associated stories if one wishes. This of course is just my view. Thanks and keep up the good work.

[@joeschmo6637]

I've read about 30/36 or so books by JRRT (and Christopher T, along with other authors approved by he and the estate) which published/edited his works, and I consider that pretty much ALL the different versions too place, and even amalgamated different events, details which ~might~ seem to contradict, I suspect that JRRT would have approved of this method if all his material on ME Legendarium would ever be put to one cohesive narrative.

[@hglundahl]

3:14 With the author of Maccabees, you rather have a writer who doesn't try to get recognised as canon, but gets so anyway, after the Ezra canon was already spread among pharisees, and this because the High Priest includes a scroll of Maccabees (or two) in a basket in the temple, the canon that Christians are going to use, mainly, up to the Reformation. And us Catholics after that too.

[@aoxc61]

A very interesting video thanks 😊!

[@qujmilton]

I personally think that everything is canon and when we reach contradictory information I go with Tolkien's later writings over the earlier ones.

[@janach1305]

I think of “canon” not in terms of the Bible, but in terms of the works of a certain artist. Mozart’s canon consists of all the works known to have been written by him. If JRR Tolkien’s canon consists of all the works written by him, the Silmarillion is iffy because it was finished by his son Christopher, not by JRR himself. JRR would certainly have finished it in ways Christopher did not, yet the writing was still primarily by the father rather than by the son.

[@jakeferreira1211]

I tend to default back to the Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, and the Silmarillion, unless it is later specified that something was incorrect by Tolkien's writings. As for the Unfinished Tales, History of Middle Earth, his Letters, etc. I go with everything is true as long as it doesn't contradict something in the stories written and published entirely by Tolkien himself.

[@thebeautyloftpt]

I Believe Tolkien was EXTREMELY decisive in his views of his legendarium, it seems he wasn't at all decisive to most I realise , and that he was all over the place , but I don't think so for a second , it's just when you have built "discovered" 😉 such a gargantuan legendarium, over his life , of course their will be inconsistencies and I don't think he had any trouble in deciding the way forward , as he wrote as if it was revealed to him ( in a way he was the final Human translation of the found ancient texts ) , not a story he feels he can mess with. But I think the mass audience's confuse indecision for correct continuity, at the point Tolkien was at I his world , any amendments, additions , "discoveries" made, would have all had such a HUGE domino ( butterfly 🦋 ) effect on previous publishings, some it would enhance and reveal the "ahhh this makes total sense now" yet at the same time it would almost ALWAYS conflict with a totally different past ot future event. So it must have been like a time traveller going to the past to try and change what happened, only to find that you have created a ripple in time that has unforseen circumstances and you go and try to then fix that repurcussions, and so on and so on .... We've all seen movies like this lol , it must have been an impossible task for him. I do wish that he had a grandson of daughter who was as interested in his works like Christopher was, they wouldn't even need to be an author !, Just have a fantastic mind and understanding of what their grandfather would want to do , and work with a modern fantasy writer who he/she could dictate to and the ghost Author accurately conveys their thought into the style of writing Tolkien used. I would say Branden Sanderson would be a great choice but ONLY as a ghost writer for a truly invested Tolkien family member, with zero personal embellishment lol. Then they could use all the Information we have from JRR himself and use the most in keeping to flesh out the silmarilian fully, and yes writings would need to be written to bridge the information chosen together like skillfully repairing a rich tapestry to its full glory , but I'm sure it could be done ? . Sorry if I've rambled and repeated myself, and not always made sense, I have ADHD , BUT I TRIED MY BEST I PROMISE 🤣

[@serene-illusion]

Sorry, but reading this almost gave me a stroke

[@thebeautyloftpt]

@@serene-illusion no sorry needed I have ADHD , AND I had to shorten that lol 🤣, I'm very aware that many people could say what I wanted 2 in that S.A in 1 paragraph lol , my mind flits around and I repeat myself and run of point a lot I realise haha

[@kamion53]

Is canon not just the stuff that is written in the published books? when Aragorn for in stance mentions the cats of Queen Beruthiel if gives nothing of info about those cats in the LotR. just that there were cats and it doesn't matter a thing Tolkien had quite a background story about this queen and her cats...... in his notes in the basement. That is stuff in the basement and not canon in the LotR. As a reader of book A one has only access to the info written in book A and not to the pile of notes that were used to construct book A. And when somebody publishes that pile of notes as book B, it does not changes the canon of book A. An other exemple is when Aragorn sings the story of Beren and Luthien in "A knife in the dark" , what is recited in this chapter is the canon about those two legenday figures in the LotR. And that canon stays the same even after the publication of the Silmarillion gave a more extended version of the tale or the fact that "the Lay of Leithian" was a poem Tolkien wrote long before he wrote the LotR. The Lay of Leithian is NOT canon in the LotR, it is just an unfinished text in the basement. Tolkien wrote a lot and changed a lot but only gave access during his lifetime to the reader of a few books settled in his Middle Earth ( hobbit, lotr and tom bombadill stories) and that was the canon, the rest material to come to the canon. When Tolkien did not write in those works a character did not do something , then that character did not do it, period! ( referring to the lame excuse of McPain& McKain that because Tolkien did never write Galadriel did NOT go to Numenor, they could pretent she did) sorry when I'm repeating myself.

[@robcastleton3359]

At 18:12 it's Fingolfin, not Finarfin :)

[@millernumber1]

I personally really glaze over when you try to play psychological games with the narrator, especially when you read History of Lord of the Rings, and it doesn't feel like Tolkien is necessarily writing with an implied narrator with a psychology in mind. Of course, I feel the same way about people playing "the game" with the Conan Doyle Sherlock Holmes writings. I think it really detracts from people's ability to enjoy the books (as opposed to enjoying the game, which in my experience too often delves into being mean to other people who disagree with you), as well as people's ability to analyze them as creations and art instead of some kind of real history.

[@quaffdowngin]

I love your breakdown of this subject. To me every version of every story is canon, because it is what was written the moment his pencil scrawled on that particular page at that moment. I can enjoy The Book of Lost Tales, as much as I can enjoy The Lord of the Rings, or The Silmarillion. It’s all the stuff of legends!

[@Leahi84]

This is just one of those things that frustrates me that he wasn't able to live long enough to complete more. It's just a shame.

[@serene-illusion]

I kind of dislike how all his works are seen as some sort of "inspiration" instead of some lovely geek writing stuff he found super interesting, and making inconsistencies along the many decades span

[@kamilziemian995]

Very good video.

[@kimberlyhornikel771]

How do you decide what is canon when you are looking between 2 printings of the same book. Example between the first edition Silarrillion and the later editions. Would you consider the canon the first because it is first edition because it is closer to JRR's intention or a later edition because it has some corrections?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

I’m not sure what corrections were made to the Silmarillion, but based on the second edition of LOTR I would assume they were just printing errors and the second edition more accurately reflects the manuscript, not so much an issue of canon as copying accuracy.

[@vadersfist20videos38]

For me, much like yourself The Silmarillion, Lord Of The Rings, and The Hobbit as well as The publish The Children Of Hurin are canon and the rest of what I consider canon is more to fill in gaps in the timeline and gaps is perhaps not the best term, I should perhaps say areas where more detail is needed.For example several parts of Unfinished Tales to me are canon such as Aldarion and Erendis, The Disaster of The Gladden Fields, Cirion and Eorl, and so forth. Essentially anything that happens either somewhere else during the story such as certain versions of The Hunt for The Ring or The Fords of Isen or anything that is referenced in the main story as something that happened in History or is remembered such as what we find in The Appendices of LOTR, Unfinished Tales, and I do agree that much of it comes down to what version of which story do you like best. So for me only alternating versions of particular stores are excluded and everything else that contradicts as little as possible is brought together in my mind into as complete a History/Narrative as possible becomes canon to me. That way I have one single story from Eru creating the Ainur into the early years of The Fourth Age and everything that happened between

[@LeHobbitFan]

Fascinating questions... I suppose we can never truly know what should and should not be canon based on what Tolkien would have done. It's one convoluted hornet's nest when you get down to the fine details, especially when you factor in the unreliable narrator aspect of things! ^^

[@jamesbyrd5175]

I just look at it with a what's significant, a fully fleshed out idea (so no to the sequel etc) , and isn't contradicted or updated by the established texts in major ways as a guide. So Hobbit, LOTR, COH, Silm, Gondolin (both the early and the later unfinished versions), Mariner's wife, are the main stories. I've only finished one book of the Histories series so I can't comment on Athrabeth since I never read it. There are other things that can fit into a hypothetical "canon" extended appendix, but listing texts some of which are a couple pages long goes against the spirit of what I think a good representation of a main corpus is. Not exactly the same as canon, but I think it is a good guide. I don't like the idea of obsessing over final intent for canon. That could lead to strange places.

[@thebeautyloftpt]

In my head cannon , putting aside for a moment the blue wizards failure or partial success , I like to think the names of the blue wizards names as all accurate, I think Alatar & Pallando are their Maia names, such as Olorin, Curumo , Awendil, & then I think their secondary names are what the men of the East simply called them , Morinatar - Darkness Slayer & Romestamos - East Helper, their given names in Arda by the children of Eru. Such as Gandalf , Mithrandir , Tharkune? - Suruman - Radagast ect ... Anyone have an opinion on this ?, Its not cannon I know but to me it seems common sense to follow the cannon of the other Istari. ?

[@tom_curtis]

I don't agree that the issue of cannon is thorny. The idea of cannon presupposes that there is a single, coherent telling of the story that we could treat as being 'true' of Middle Earth. For that to exist, you have to have a reliable, stable story. Ergo, later potential revisions, that may themselves have been revised had Tolkien lived to publish his own version of the Silmarillion, should only be accepted where they are coherent with published versions of the story. On that basis, The LoTR is cannon with regard to the Third Age, and takes precedent over The Hobbit and the Silmarillion with regard to the Third Age. The Silmarillion itself is cannon for all events prior to the Third Age, for the versions of those stories with have in the LoTR are for the most part songs composed by Hobbits. For the Children of Hurin, that would take precedence over the Silmarillion for that story, as it is more particular; but none of the other tales from the Silmarillion were ever published in a complete form independently (other than the obviously non-canonical Book of Lost Tales); so their detailed telling does not take precedence

[@jamesbyrd5175]

So would the incomplete version of Gondolin in UT be canon? You also do lose a lot if you completely ignore the Lost Tales version of the Fall of Gondolin. That chapter has inspired so much artwork and fan generated content. Silm's cliff notes version does not do that Great Tale justice most of all (as opposed to Beren and Luthien or even Hurin). Even though that chapter was written so early, it manages to avoid most topics where other early stories contradict the later legendarium blatantly. Functioning almost like one of the mythic versions of the same story, passed down by elves and just slightly altered. Most of the complaints center around the amount of balrogs which I think is minor and explainable. Just look at the Tolkien Gateway article on it. They have battle maps, heraldry from houses described in the text etc. And there is nothing to supplant it unlike so much other material covered in the Lost Tales. And it's a single cohesive narrative to boot, almost large enough to be a standalone novel. How rare is that from UT or HOME materials. You don't have to deal with interruptions by Christopher Tolkien or read a string of fragments to finish it. Not canon but highly reccomend people check it out for completeness. Even if you don't enjoy HOME or UT style material (like me).

[@tominiowa2513]

Pretty sure the only *cannon* are in the superseded version of Númenor that also had steamships, dirigibles, etc. Given more time, Saruman might well have invented the cannon.

[@tom_curtis]

@@jamesbyrd5175, I would say that "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin" in the Silmarillion is cannon. I do not think that anything from The Book of Lost Tales can be cannon unless included in later, complete, published tales or explicitly mentioned by Tolkien as something he intended to retain in letters post dating publication of LoTR. That is because the change in the size of the Elves from The Book of Lost Tales to the Silmarillion is too important a change. It necessitated the change from Tevildo to Sauron in "Of Beren and Luthien". I would be inclined to include anything from "Unfinished Tales" as cannon unless expressly contradicted by, or incoherent with The Silmarillion and/or LoTR. Specifically, "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" in UT, which apparently was written circa 1951 should, IMO, be accepted as cannon with the preceding caveat.

[@tom_curtis]

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds ..." - Ralph Waldo Emmerson "Especially as it relates to spelling" - Tom Curtis

[@jamesbyrd5175]

@@tom_curtis I'd still highly recommend for people to check out the Lost Tales version of Fall of Gondolin. Do not relegate it to version history. Be as it may set in a quasi Middle Earth universe, it's enjoyable even as a standalone work.

[@keyrtan]

IMHO; Lamsa translation, Genesis, Psalms, Proverbs, New Testament minus revelations. In terms of Tolkien it would be useful to add terms. * Hard Canon; written and published by the author in their lifetime. * Soft Canon; mostly written by the main author but not published in their lifetime. * Head Canon; anything left up to the reader to define

[@ericshade9632]

For Me, the stand alone "Children of Hurin", "Beren and Luthien" and "Fall of Gondolin" are the final word and, therefore "canon". To these, the remaining elements of the "Silmarillion" make up the most canonical form of the book.....thus Far. I do expect, more stand-alone First/Second age stories to be published and I will probably deem these to be the final canon as well. I also will not be surprised if one day, a revised, re-jiggered "Silmarillion" will emerge. And as long as the Tolkien estate give it the thumbs-up, then that will be the final canon too.

[@RedSeaGull]

It seems poetic or bittersweet that the canon of what Tolkien wrote ending up being in some ways as elusive and incomplete as the histories and mythologies he himself loved. Personally, I feel that whatever he wrote is canon, unless undermined by more recent writings or statements, since that's all we have to go by - except for the cases when his not publishing his stories was due him being unhappy with what he'd written, which I wouldn't disregard, but would hold more loosely, as 'legends'. I'm by no means a Tolkien expert but I disagree with Christopher Tolkien's leaving out the descriptions of the Dagor Dagorath end times from the Silmarillion, as well as the general approach of condensing material to make the narrative style consistent. Better in my opinion to cram as much information in as possible, so I'm glad we have the expanded Children of Hurin, Beren & Luthien, and Fall of Gondolin, though I do wish there was a version of the last two which tried to make them cohere as one definitive story. It would be cool if one day the Tolkien Estate did try to recompile the History of Middle Earth series into a fully expanded Silmarillion, using Christopher's version as a guide

[@crimsonthumos3905]

I believe the Silmarillion to be canon. However, I do believe that it was far from finished and refined to what Tolkien envisioned or hoped for. He himself often changed or edited the stories within it. So, I believe the Hobbit and LOTR to be a refined, perfect canon. the Silmarillion and other stories secondary canon. So they are canon, but incomplete like passages of an old tome

[@istari0]

I too accept Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit, and The Silmarillion as canon unless other texts can convince me that some part of what they have is a more convincing, while still remaining complete, version of the story. Such things would almost certainly be in regard to The Silmarillion and involve writings from the Unfinished Tales or the full books of the three great tales published separately in recent years. The HoME books can provide some additional insights but so much of that is texts that were never completed for one reason or another. I find it frustrating when some people try to push fragments of incomplete stories as being canon because Tolkien wrote them later but never finished them. Without a coherent story, how can you say these later ideas should replace the early parts as canon? Had Tolkien lived long enough, we would have such things a Valinorean year being equal to 144 years of the sun and the sun and the moon being created much, much earlier. Elves and men would have awoken much earlier with men being the source species for orcs. So how would have all this affected the Two Trees and the creation of the Silmarils, etc, if this is what happened.

[@ForceWave-1139]

The movies are the most canon. That’s right, I’m going chaotic neutral on this.

[@xXSirKRXx]

Are you or have you ever considered becoming a tolkien scholar?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

When I was young enough to make that decision I didn’t know it was viable. Now it’s a bit too late lol.

[@user-ik4kh9lt6d]

Of course The Silmarillion is part of Middle-Earth canon. Its about its freaking origins.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Did you actually watch the video or just read the thumbnail?

[@user-ik4kh9lt6d]

@@TolkienLorePodcast Just read the thumbnail.

[@decem_sagittae]

Why do Americans always pronounce 'canon' as 'cannon'? It's ridiculous.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

How else would you pronounce it?

[@groovecouple4644]

“Canon”? Anything Amazon isn’t touching lol…

[@jman518192]

Wait head canon and fan fiction are not by definition synonymous??? 🧐🤓🥸🤓🧐 This also sounds very similar to the caution of allegory for me in this world. 😂 I find this amusing. A headache but an amusing headache 😂