Which of Your Dice are the Best in Dungeons and Dragons?

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One Shot Questers

One Shot Questers

Жыл бұрын

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Welcome to the Dice Council, where we tackle the burning questions that every TTRPG player needs to know! Today's topic: Which die reigns supreme as the best in a TTRPG set of dice?
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#ttrpg #fantasy #dnd

Пікірлер: 467
@OneShotQuesters
@OneShotQuesters Жыл бұрын
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@CrisMind
@CrisMind Жыл бұрын
What about the d100?
@kyrorogers1395
@kyrorogers1395 Жыл бұрын
I wonder if you had an avatar of yourself and had a D&D class.
@astrolord4325
@astrolord4325 Жыл бұрын
What about d3? I don't own a d3 but i guess it is important for, like 3 or 4 things in 5e? Also there are 2 kinds of d3 and one of them is hilarious XD
@walperinus
@walperinus Жыл бұрын
if i didnt missheard '' from youngest to oldest'' (d4 goest 1st) OBJECTION the d4 was already a thing all the way back to the royal game of ur, the OLDEST board game that archaeologists discovered (so far)
@binyaminwiner
@binyaminwiner Жыл бұрын
April 11th isn't a Saturday
@Raze_4
@Raze_4 Жыл бұрын
I'd love to see a sequel to this where you go over the different types of dice. Such as metal dice, monochromatic dice, sparkly dice, light up dice, borrowed dice, mix'n'match dice, swirly dice, digital dice, translucent dice, diced onions, windshield de-icer, fuzzy dice, swirly dice, glow in the dark dice, rigged dice, round dice, etc
@Jay-gurl
@Jay-gurl Жыл бұрын
I second this notion!
@ayf449
@ayf449 Жыл бұрын
You forgot dice carved out of the bones of your enemies
@richeesosa6523
@richeesosa6523 Жыл бұрын
you forgot weighted dice
@mightygandalf9208
@mightygandalf9208 Жыл бұрын
He said "etc"
@privateeyety5735
@privateeyety5735 Жыл бұрын
Same
@ninja__5375
@ninja__5375 Жыл бұрын
D12, it's the closest to the hexagon, and it is always clear which number is face up. (Pls make part 2)
@Chiaros
@Chiaros Жыл бұрын
hexagon is bestagon
@jakob3044
@jakob3044 Жыл бұрын
people sleep on the dodecahedron fr
@m2pt5
@m2pt5 Жыл бұрын
You should have a secondary council for the weird dice, like d13 and d100.
@ansir3891
@ansir3891 Жыл бұрын
D16 d3 d5 d24 d30 d100
@blade7y156
@blade7y156 Жыл бұрын
and d7 and d11
@SimonClarkstone
@SimonClarkstone Жыл бұрын
The full DCC set?
@dgior_waf8500
@dgior_waf8500 Жыл бұрын
The d100 is there 2:32
@zemellion26
@zemellion26 Жыл бұрын
@@dgior_waf8500not the percentage die, the giant dice that’s basically a ball
@grantbaugh2773
@grantbaugh2773 Жыл бұрын
I love the d12 but it just isn't used for much. Though I did once make a small sized artificer who used dual lances while riding his steel defender, so that was cool
@JzanderN
@JzanderN Жыл бұрын
D12 has the best name for its shape. Dodecahedron.
@adamlatosinski5475
@adamlatosinski5475 Жыл бұрын
Even d3 gets more use, and it doesn't even exist!
@procrastinatinggamer
@procrastinatinggamer Жыл бұрын
It’s ironically used for less in Pathfinder 2e but there’s some cases where it comes out that make it even more impactful and dramatic. It’s used less because you don’t roll for HP but a few more weapons use it (the way magical enhancements work and are worded - mainly striking runes - means you can’t have a 2d6 weapon). But I know a Gunslinger with an arquebus lives for when they can grab that die. See an arquebus is only a d8 weapon normally, but when you crit with it (which gunslingers are wont to do) it becomes a d12 weapon *and* you add another d12 to the damage after doubling for the crit all thanks to its Fatal d12 trait. So a level 1 gunslinger who crits with an arquebus (which they’re more likely to do thanks to how crits work in 2e and their higher proficiency bonus with guns) is functionally doing 3d12 damage with a single bullet.
@justnova9720
@justnova9720 Жыл бұрын
Wait the d12 made an appearance?
@resileaf9501
@resileaf9501 Жыл бұрын
The D12 is the best friend of the barbarian. No barbarian will ever leave the house without them.
@justmonica9253
@justmonica9253 Жыл бұрын
D8 is the greatest. An absolute classic. The pinacle of 5e one handed weapons, the hit die of all the most interesting classes, the die used in spirit guardians and spiritual weapon: the cornerstones of the cleric. An iconic shape. Unmistakable. Low enough so as not to be relegated to niche spells like the d12, yet high enough to not need to be rolled in huge handfuls like the d6. When the shining hero, the paladin of light, holds her blade aloft and calls to the heavens for righteous fire, do not the archangels respond with 1d8+1d8 per spell level radiant damage? For they know the pure virtue of its form, the divine elegance of its 4.5 average. Climb Mount Celestia and indeed you shall find you do not climb the squarish form of the d6 nr the pyramidal form of the d4, but the geometrically sublime octohedral form of the d8. How could it be any other way? After all, to strive for the d8 is to strive... for perfection.
@johnyshadow
@johnyshadow Жыл бұрын
To that I say... Eldritch Blast! D10 force damage in your face! Don´t like that? How about my longsword (wielded in both hands, of course), for another D10 of slice n´ *dice* damage. XD
@emeraldlily673
@emeraldlily673 Жыл бұрын
Fair folk please, d8 hp dice and d10 damage rolls are my class 😂
@rowan404
@rowan404 Жыл бұрын
The d10 has a special place in my heart because I used it the first time I killed a BBEG.
@katielynne
@katielynne Жыл бұрын
The Deedee dice of course 😃
@OneShotQuesters
@OneShotQuesters Жыл бұрын
Oh Snap! You right!
@fallingfish2027
@fallingfish2027 Жыл бұрын
What else would it be
@Hakaimono
@Hakaimono Жыл бұрын
It has to be.
@RedPanda42
@RedPanda42 Жыл бұрын
So true
@amazingfireboy1848
@amazingfireboy1848 Жыл бұрын
King Dededice.
@Mercadian
@Mercadian Жыл бұрын
It would've been hilarious if you'd added the d3, d5, d7, d14, d16, d24, and d30 from DCC as well!
@sevenevils8282
@sevenevils8282 Жыл бұрын
The odd dice sue the council for diversity and representation.
@DiceNat21
@DiceNat21 Жыл бұрын
I'm sad my d21s didn't get any rep superior to the d20 in every way
@DavidFlrczk
@DavidFlrczk Жыл бұрын
Kinda expected to see a d100
@Raze_4
@Raze_4 Жыл бұрын
We did, right after d10. Though I would have preferred a true d100, but those near spheres aren't too easy to come by.
@cgopop
@cgopop Жыл бұрын
D4 is technically the oldest die having been invented over 4000 years ago.
@Snowmon89
@Snowmon89 Жыл бұрын
No, the oldest is the D1 having existed before even Dice were a thing.... also pretty sure they had coins before dice, so if you count d2 as a die instead of a coin...
@DipUniversal
@DipUniversal Жыл бұрын
​@@Snowmon89 wouldn't D1 be a sphere? I don't know but 1 smooth surface so I'm guessing. Also technically all Dice existed at the beginning, yet it was a madder of who was found first
@CalamitasDeus
@CalamitasDeus Жыл бұрын
What about the d3? It's important for keeping track of charges on many magic items!
@crystalcat3696
@crystalcat3696 Жыл бұрын
thats just a d6, 1or2 for 1, 3 or4 for 2, and 5 or 6 for 3
@CalamitasDeus
@CalamitasDeus Жыл бұрын
@@crystalcat3696 No. It's a d3. You are describing coping with not having a d3.
@crystalcat3696
@crystalcat3696 Жыл бұрын
@@CalamitasDeus ok fine send me an image of a working, 33.3 percent chance of rolling each number d3
@gamemasteranthony2756
@gamemasteranthony2756 Жыл бұрын
Meanwhile, the upcoming Monty Python RPG is over there in the corner with D14s, D16s, and D18s with ACTUAL uses for them sweating bullets at what the judge would think...
@the11382
@the11382 Жыл бұрын
Of course a monty python RPG uses these dice, what did I expect?
@asquirrelplays
@asquirrelplays Жыл бұрын
D12 for me. It's the geometry dream number. The Babylonians knew what was up.
@TheM8
@TheM8 Жыл бұрын
Hope d10 talk about outside of dnd uses as most other systems use it
@Woodthorn
@Woodthorn Жыл бұрын
I don't know about *most* others. Many, certainly, but hardly most.
@Traumglanz
@Traumglanz Жыл бұрын
@@Woodthorn D20 seems certainly pretty rare when going outside of the DnD world. And D10 is just another way of writing D100 ;-) it really is used in a lot of system and I would not be surprised it it's really most. Anything else would be actually an surprise. Outside of damage, D6 seems to see a lot of use for damage for whatever reason.
@thetravelerofworlds8359
@thetravelerofworlds8359 Жыл бұрын
The trouble with dice is that when rolling you have an impulse to choose on die or another, yet when you go to choose a pair of dice, you often forget the difference between D12 and D20, because they look the same. I may, however have a solution. Like when I slice and dice vegetables for my nieces and nephews, I can often dye them different and unusual colors so that the children are easily impressed by the mysterious food in colors they've never seen before and forget that they're eating vegetables. So I propose that we do something similar to our beloved dice. Perhaps not dye for each die, but instead simply buying a set of dice where each one is a different color, making it difficult to confuse one die for another if one only refers to them by the hue instead of the number or shape. This will more easily allow us to slice and dice our enemies with our dice, instead of dying a terrible death, and as players will not cause us to die inside because we can't quickly choose which die we need to roll.
@procrastinatinggamer
@procrastinatinggamer Жыл бұрын
D10: “Nearly every game made by White Wolf and Onyx Path rely on me along with nearly every Warhammer RPG on the market. Also what do you think’s gettin’ rolled for Cyberpunk Red, choomba?”
@thelastobasknight3966
@thelastobasknight3966 Жыл бұрын
What about the fabled d100?
@Alex-cq1zr
@Alex-cq1zr Жыл бұрын
"Your honor, we are always together. Practically part of each other. May only death do us apart." "Aren't you siblings?"
@masterbob2451
@masterbob2451 Жыл бұрын
The next video should include the DCC dice - that would be cool
@keegantompkins9553
@keegantompkins9553 Жыл бұрын
I really like D8s, they're big enough that they feel like they have that exciting "oomph" But they're also small enough that sometimes you get to roll a lot of them.
@lemone630
@lemone630 Жыл бұрын
I have this one D6 that looks like a minecraft dirt block, and I hereby decree that Daryl the Dirt Die is officially the best one.
@pedrohenriqueguinsk4244
@pedrohenriqueguinsk4244 Жыл бұрын
D4 being "the youngest" is funny because the D4 first appeared in the ancient mesopotamian game "Royal Game of Ur"
@NikFromm
@NikFromm Жыл бұрын
We didn’t get to hear from D100 though! I’m pretty sure that one livestream challenge you did with it means you have the most knowledge (and/or trauma) of using it!😅
@cindygauthier8567
@cindygauthier8567 Жыл бұрын
Argument for d6: there are systems that use ONLY d6s, but d20 still tends to rely on the other dice to make a system functional. D6 needs no support, but is happy to lend a hand to the other dice for more rules-heavy systems
@WildBluntHickok
@WildBluntHickok Жыл бұрын
You can make the same argument for D10 though.
@SillySyrup
@SillySyrup Жыл бұрын
What about those d100s that acually have 100 sides and those d3s? D16s also exist.
@supergamer1388
@supergamer1388 Жыл бұрын
Unless they are particularly large, a d100 is better known as a ball.
@WildBluntHickok
@WildBluntHickok Жыл бұрын
D3 is useless. Just use a D6 and divide by 2 (rounding up). I guess you could make the same claim about the D4 being made obsolete by the D8, but a handful of D4 can at least be scattered behind you to discourage pursuit.
@SillySyrup
@SillySyrup Жыл бұрын
@@WildBluntHickok Just because a D3 is useless doesn't mean it shouldn't be included as a die in the video.
@mbryson2899
@mbryson2899 Жыл бұрын
I once accidentally spoke with Lou Zocchi back in the 90s while trying to order OOP Chessex cardboard counters. I had him at "Zocchihedron," the d100, and then he spoke freely about the old days of Avalon Hill and gaming in general. Ma Bell charged me a small fortune for the privilege, but it was worth it to speak with a gaming legend.
@iantaran2843
@iantaran2843 Жыл бұрын
D12s are skills in the game I run. I honestly couldn't go back, it's nice to see it actually getting some use 🤣
@prscorpio
@prscorpio Жыл бұрын
I found the D2's arguments cohesive and sensible. Hard to beat that depth of meaning. #TEAMD2
@Justforvisit
@Justforvisit Жыл бұрын
The love to detail in these sketches is just freaking amazing! I even paused to read the whole newspapers article! And it was very worth it! xD
@Drakoni23
@Drakoni23 Жыл бұрын
I like D12. The Dodecahedron is a great shape. D10 and D10s aren't actually platonic solids tho. Some might say that makes them unique but I think they are up to something >_>
@maxendermen
@maxendermen Жыл бұрын
The best D is the bards
@krookodile25outside39
@krookodile25outside39 Жыл бұрын
2:02 usually we say "Ciao" or "Buongiorno" but its still quite good
@Truthliberation
@Truthliberation Жыл бұрын
I actually just started running Waterdeep Dragon Heist and a new player got the d12 confused with the d20 😅
@YB-dh1fu
@YB-dh1fu Жыл бұрын
This was great!
@brendanmurphy2937
@brendanmurphy2937 Жыл бұрын
Personally the humble d8 is my favorite, all the best 1-handed weapons use a d8 as their damage dice 🙏
@Mytthical
@Mytthical Жыл бұрын
I’m new to dnd and these videos have been quite fun to watch while I learn the rules
@aster7654
@aster7654 Жыл бұрын
I require page 3, the suspense is killing me!
@sourwitch2340
@sourwitch2340 Жыл бұрын
my favourite die is a d12 both to roll and in this skit it's like a little trickster, big enough to sow chaos and give results quite unpredictable, but not so large that rolling it casually feels overwhelming. like, every time you roll a d20 feels... special bc virtually anything could come from it, the greatest anguish and the most wonderful of pleasures. and that is great. but it can also be a bit much. so a d12 finds itself at a solid middle ground between the majesty of the d12 but the humour of a d10.
@TheVirtual3
@TheVirtual3 Жыл бұрын
The d8 won my heart and vote, I'm meeting him across the road in the local pub tomorrow evening
@formidableplays4750
@formidableplays4750 Жыл бұрын
I literally couldn't relate more to the mix-up between d12 and d20. I'm a new player and just got my first playing dice. So to test for "beginner's luck" I decided to roll the "d20" 6 times and see what numbers I get... I was really upset when I rolled four 12s, a 10, and a 1, until I realized I was using a d12 dice...
@o7freedom
@o7freedom Жыл бұрын
D-100: ALRIGHT PIPSQUEEKS STEP ASIDE! I'M READY TO MAKE MY CASE! edit: AND WHERE'S! MY! CHAIR!? (glares in Magic Surge Table and Devine Intervention Table with malicious intent.)
@Audreys_Cloud
@Audreys_Cloud Жыл бұрын
D8's argument was Gr8.
@beckybequette8212
@beckybequette8212 6 ай бұрын
I have a preference to D4 as a handful of them can be used as caltrops in an emergence
@russanloke
@russanloke Ай бұрын
Dont tell my other dice, but my favourite is an orange d10 that survived a 10 story building fall (it went rolling off the balcony), we found it by some miracle, it was intact and it rolled a 10.
@naturesguard8745
@naturesguard8745 Жыл бұрын
I think you need a sequel where D3 shows up as the nemesis of the councile
@TigerSira
@TigerSira Жыл бұрын
What about d100?
@timwardo5877
@timwardo5877 Жыл бұрын
The d8 is my favorite and it gave the most compelling case
@FHBStudio
@FHBStudio Жыл бұрын
Don't forget about the conjoined twin: D100!
@artbookgaming
@artbookgaming Жыл бұрын
Love you, Ad-barian!
@maddie9602
@maddie9602 Жыл бұрын
D100: "hey! I exist!" Percentile: "me too!"
@400and4
@400and4 Жыл бұрын
Objection! Bullbackproduce! The dice are made to be rolled! D12 is the best as it rooooooollllllsssss so well. You can just toss it and it goes on to roll and roll and roll and roll until it falls off the table and you have to pick it up and lie to the DM you rolled a nat 12 regardless of the outcome. I rest my case.
@lilliawolf7831
@lilliawolf7831 Жыл бұрын
D6 dice stacking ! Favorite for people waiting for party veteran / ex dm one shoting everyone in entire area .
@linkeffect82
@linkeffect82 Жыл бұрын
My favorite die is my 99 and a mystery! The mystery is sequestered between all the other numbers!
@how4989
@how4989 4 ай бұрын
I HAD A LITERAL ACE ATTORNEY TRIAL BASED OFF THIS IN MY BRAIN WHILE WATCHING IT
@michaelconnell1010
@michaelconnell1010 Жыл бұрын
D100: This is outrageous! It’s unfair! How can you be a dice and not be on the Council!
@theryuyami
@theryuyami 4 ай бұрын
How is no one talking about D8's smooth talking, like dayum.
@elliottjohnson9398
@elliottjohnson9398 Жыл бұрын
That was not the ending i was expecting
@diezweids
@diezweids Жыл бұрын
This is like my 10th time watching this video and I only just realized why the d1 said “we are ALL under the age of twelve” when d12 is twelve, it was because he is always forgotten
@highjack5517
@highjack5517 6 күн бұрын
My man D6 was done dirty in this video
@sephirothslayer1152
@sephirothslayer1152 11 ай бұрын
I love my d6 and d12 the most because they consistently roll well, and my d20 next because it is the least consistent of all my dice, seemingly only able to roll between a 1-7 and a 16-20 in perfectly even amounts.
@MatthewSchooley94
@MatthewSchooley94 Жыл бұрын
I kinda wish the d1 was a Mobius strip instead of a sphere.
@KoboltBlue
@KoboltBlue Жыл бұрын
Was waiting for the d100 to roll up to the stand, only to keep rolling unable to stop
@BagelFrog
@BagelFrog Жыл бұрын
Really looking forward to next week and explanation of Dragonborn puberty
@ballisticm0use72
@ballisticm0use72 Жыл бұрын
I kinda expected the d10 twins to merge and form d100
@mr.slappii513
@mr.slappii513 5 ай бұрын
Honestly I think Dice should be like moose where Dice is both the singular and the Plural. I actually did that most of my life because it just sounded right, it feels way better.
@awrapaoxenhead3984
@awrapaoxenhead3984 Жыл бұрын
Made to many Yatzee jokes on the d6 and ended up missing the fireball joke.
@andrewcabrera505
@andrewcabrera505 Жыл бұрын
D12’s have the best shape. Elaborate like a d20 but less pointy and more round and spiny, and the fact you never use them just makes them that much more special
@jerichospades8928
@jerichospades8928 Жыл бұрын
D8 wasn't trying to slander his opponents but he was trying to d8 the judge. So was a bard involved in the making of a d8
@thealmightykamina5443
@thealmightykamina5443 Жыл бұрын
The newspaper is dated a month from now. This can only mean one thing... Duke is a time traveller!
@HateSonneillon
@HateSonneillon Жыл бұрын
I'm becoming a fan of d4s. They have so many uses despite having so few faces. Most people only come up with at most 4 outcomes for a d20 roll anyway. Having a smaller range also means they have a higher chance to get its highest and lowest numbers, which is good for very explosive mechanics. They're also great as small timers.
@MRandomGuyYT
@MRandomGuyYT Жыл бұрын
When is part two also I’m using that D8 pick up line. 1:49
@obadijahparks
@obadijahparks Жыл бұрын
Starting out with classical music told me enough about how this was gonna go.
@cinderschitt
@cinderschitt Жыл бұрын
D4 bc you can roll a lot of them and I like rolling a lot of dice. Close 2nd is d6 bc cube :)
@somerando1073
@somerando1073 Жыл бұрын
D10 because it can also be percentile if it has a friend.
@t0rp0r
@t0rp0r Жыл бұрын
Spot on with the d12... It gets accidentally pulled to roll a d20 much too often ..
@soossoos1509
@soossoos1509 Жыл бұрын
Personally i love The d6. Ive been playing a lot of other tabletops thats not dnd at i can Play it everywhere since everyone owns a d6
@user-cf6ee2ud2y
@user-cf6ee2ud2y 5 ай бұрын
Missed a chance for d3 (which multiple systems call for despite no manufacturer making one). It is a real thing and they look funny. I liked the D “because the dm said so” 1 and the D “technically a coin” 2, if something has 50% odds I don’t have the players roll % it gets confusing fast just heads or tails (or heads 1 tails 2 if we need an actual dice). You could argue D “yatzhee” 6 is actually more useful the D ”5% odds” 20 since every board game uses him and a bunch of other rpgs use him, but in the context of dnd he’s a bit lower on the totem pole. Still credit where it’s due old dnd only used d6 and percentile, so cut my boy D “double digits” 100 some slack (even if he needs D “no ten” 10 to function).
@Kineth1
@Kineth1 Жыл бұрын
My vote is for the D4. It's the only one that has a use outside random number generation.
@TheInGeneralGamer
@TheInGeneralGamer 5 ай бұрын
I was kinda hoping D10 would have a brother so they could be D100. Was fun to watch tho!
@thecommander9137
@thecommander9137 Жыл бұрын
D6 is the most popular dice out there, so I guess that would be in his favor, an equally good reason for the D6 to be the best die is YATZY!
@Blandy8521
@Blandy8521 Жыл бұрын
My favourite is the d12 because they're fun to fidget with
@BreathWeapon
@BreathWeapon 3 ай бұрын
The fact the Yatzee joke is still a thing is intense
@hexbox2182
@hexbox2182 Жыл бұрын
Where’s the 1 giant d100 aka the golfball!
@glknight1813
@glknight1813 Жыл бұрын
You forgot the Eldritch Horror that is... THE D100!
@Voxel_Cat
@Voxel_Cat Жыл бұрын
OSQ you should do a chat adventure
@jetwarrior101
@jetwarrior101 Жыл бұрын
Where were d100, d60, and d24? I must know their cases. THE PUBLIC MUST BE INFORMED!
@dw9253
@dw9253 Жыл бұрын
Don't forget the d3 from the wild magic barbarian
@bradleypaul7728
@bradleypaul7728 Жыл бұрын
TURTN THE DICE CONCIL INTO A ON GOING SERIES
@davidecamassi7585
@davidecamassi7585 Жыл бұрын
D10 speaks Italian, so is better, no other objections
@mikeesplace
@mikeesplace Жыл бұрын
I was waiting for the end to be all of them getting crushed by a d100
@charlesc3564
@charlesc3564 Жыл бұрын
*Laughs in d30, d17, d13, d11 and d7 in my dice bag*
@Alylyx
@Alylyx Жыл бұрын
When used for damages, rolling a 12 on a D12 always feels like a crit. Best feeling ever.
@FrinniferFran
@FrinniferFran 6 ай бұрын
Let’s not forget the very niche and impractical but still impressive d100
@sukikurai
@sukikurai Жыл бұрын
i am putting some ikea furniture and it made me think of what i think would be a funny video idea. how dnd classes would put ikea furniture together
@ry7qx2nq9i
@ry7qx2nq9i Жыл бұрын
4:33 "More angry" -Ad-barian Edit: Also, petition for Ad-barians' nickname to be Ad-barry
@Darkuriziel
@Darkuriziel Жыл бұрын
I think the d2 should have won. Everything will be decided by coin-toss ;) Also the idea of a part 2 with the odd dices like d3 d5 d16 d24 d30 d100 and so on would be nice.
@ketsuekikumori9145
@ketsuekikumori9145 Жыл бұрын
D100: *rolls past the podium*
@Deathmvp1
@Deathmvp1 Жыл бұрын
You should have added the d100 that could not stop moving past.
@lordmars2387
@lordmars2387 Жыл бұрын
D6, d10, and d20 all have systems running off them; the rest all complete for 4th place. Except for d4, I'd rather roll a d20 divide by 5 and round up then use a dice that cannot roll.
@beardiemom
@beardiemom Жыл бұрын
D10 is best and that is totally not in my very biased opinion because D10s are all you need for my favorite system.
@Alex-cq1zr
@Alex-cq1zr Жыл бұрын
What system is that?
@beardiemom
@beardiemom Жыл бұрын
@@Alex-cq1zr Vampire: The Masquerade. It has reignited my love for TTRPGs a couple years ago and the only system I have found consistant groups for since then.
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