Which Version of 5e is Right for You?

[@theblindjedi41]

Thanks for highlighting all of these options.

[@natebennett3513]

I really enjoyed this video. I backed Nimble 5e and am excited to try it out!

[@Crashloop]

A5e is what I play today for most of my groups, I got one group playing 5e still as they didn't enjoy the crunch. I'm getting Nimble5e to replace 5e, my goal is to rely on other 5e versions then wotc's for the future

[@1979fsa]

I heard Nimble has no atk roll, it's weird to remove the most iconic and fun party of the combat and still call it dnd-variant.

[@SuperFrostyice]

@@1979fsa Nimble is based on rolling a weapon die instead of a D20 to attack, you miss on a 1 and dice explode on crits, it's to avoid the I roll and fail, I guess that's it then wait your turn after 1h gameplay

[@Crashloop]

@@1979fsa Nimble doesn't only change the roll to hit, it also removes the move, action, bonus action system and replaces it with 3 action points, initiative is changed how it works, and instead of spell slots they use mana points. The new classes presented are also based on 5e classes but with new features and what seems much more tactical choices to make combat more interesting. Combat in D&D 5e is not really fun or tactical, and that is what Nimble tries to fix by speeding up combat and introducing more tactical choices. With all the changes it is still possible to use 5e monsterbooks and adventures so it is somewhat compatible, monsters need a quick fixup but nothing that seems to be very hard to do on the fly as you use them. I like 5e as a system, but it's also a system that doesn't deliver very tactical or fun combat due to how long combat can take. If you think the most iconic and fun part about part of combat is to roll a d20 to see if you hit and, well then you are the first I have heard say that ever.

[@GMToolbox]

So tell me your favorite thing in A5e. I really like how they changed equipment. DC20 does this as well, and even TOV has done it to a minor extent. But I think A5e really does it well.

[@Crashloop]

​@@GMToolboxequipment is one thing, but as a narrator what I have seen bring the most smile to my players are the player options and the combat maneuvers. As one of my fighters said it "damn, I'm never going to be able to enjoy a 5e fighter after this". And I absolutely love the monstrous menagerie... One of the best monster books I have ever seen

[@LouAnders1]

Wry much appreciate this video breakdown!

[@michaelpinkston2602]

Tales of the Valiant! My players love the luck system. They also really like the players guide.

[@odinulveson9101]

* rambles like an an coffeine infused addict * They also got awesome dragons! Like sand brown, yellow, void purple, wasteland orange ( rust = deep redishorange ), sky swooping grey-white ones too!🤪

[@hectamus_]

I’m gonna be using Nimble 5E for my next adventure next month. This system looks super promising. Donated to the campaign as soon I got through the precise material.

[@CJ_esc.artist]

Nimble will be my favorite 5e. Have the kickstarter pamphlet from last year. It’s not all or nothing but rather very nice, fun and plug and play options that will make 5e fun again.

[@sebastianmener8473]

I‘m very excited for the release of nimble. Rumors have it‘ll not be to long til a Foundry VTT release of the system 🤩

[@VanBurenPhilips]

DC20 is 100% on my wavelength, I will definitely be running/playing it and would happy to switch to it entirely. Not sure if my forever DM & other players will feel the same - Nimble and Valiant look like options worth considering. I like DC20 and Nimble's action economy, I've found that to be one of 5e's biggest problems.

[@GMToolbox]

You are right on the money here. The Action economy of DC20 and Nimble is great. I like the robustness of DC20 though. For 5e I am going TOV. Its just 5e done better. My players are liking it as we just slowly migrated into it and they hardly noticed. Now they are hooked.

[@nathanaelthomas9243]

Thanks for the video sir 👍🏻 I appreciate your insights from personal experience as I likely will not get to play test any of these systems before my group starts our next campaign and jump right into one and I want to make sure we pick the best one for us. Just a tip for the future, I don’t think it’s fair to D&D 2024 to list its Cons as a bunch of stuff that isn’t in the game or that it doesn’t offer enough player options compared to everything we had in 2014 5e + like 5 or 6 source books. That kinda stuff is better saved for the Pros lists of the other systems and I imagine all the systems will expand as time goes on. Also, your critique of how 5e 2024 didn’t go far enough, I feel is also pretty applicable to A5E as they kept the rules largely the same and didn’t fix many problematic issues, but they got a pass. Additionally, I will happily listen to your personal opinion/experience running a game, but I would have benefited in my own ability to determine if I agree with you if you provided some more concrete examples as to why you feel the way you do. For instance, mostly when you discussed ToV and things like better monster design, I would’ve liked a side by side comparison of how a combat for you played out in ToV versus how it would’ve gone in 5e. All I really know is that you prefer ToV and they have a luck system which replaces inspiration. I don’t mean to come across as harsh and I’m sure you were trying to keep the video short, but if you’re interested, I would be curious to watch a longer form video where you break down your experience with ToV a little deeper. Thanks again and have a great day man!

[@GMToolbox]

Thanks for the feedback. You are correct in me trying to keep the video short as analytics show that by around the 7-8 minute mark most people stop watching videos. This is for videos in general, not just mine. So I try to keep them around then when I can. I have however gone into more detail on several of the systems within D&D and TOV to do side by side compressions in longer format going through each feature and trying my best to do an apples to apples comparison. I am currently on a break from creating content as life has just been throwing a lot at me lately but I do plan to continue that series as I have gotten a lot of great feedback on it. I even want to do side by side monster comparisons and maybe simulate some combats as part of that. I hope as I continue to create that content and evolve it you will find it useful. One thing I can tell you is I am currently playing the TOV Ranger at a 2024 5e table. The DM let me do so as he even agreed that the TOV Ranger was much better. I am using TOV Talents, lineage/heritage/ and backgrounds for the character and a Kobold Press subclass from Tome of Heroes which is a 5e book. The only thing I am using from 2024 5e is the spells per the DMs request to keep it simple. It has been very successful and everyone agrees at the table that it is a great character build. Some of them are even considering remaking their characters in TOV now that they have seen mine. The DM has also switched to using the TOV monster vault instead of the MM after seeing it. So in my experience, once I have brought TOV to a table and showed it to DMs and players they have mostly preferred it. I hope this helps you out a bit and I look forward to bringing you more content in the future. Thanks!

[@nathanaelthomas9243]

@ Awesome man, sounds like I need to give ToV a serious look! The D&D Ranger has always been a bummer for me so it’s nice to know there’s a version others have enjoyed. I will have to look those videos up as they sound exactly like what I’m looking for 👍🏻 I hope life calms down for ya man and I’m looking forward to your future content.

[@chascarch]

Really looking forward to Nimble and hoping it rocks.

[@robertsilvermyst7325]

Definitely loving Tales of the Valiant

[@odinulveson9101]

So. I began with 5e in 2022, Im deep into it and splurged alot, ONLY buy physical and local. As a dragon addict, I just ordered the Tales of the Valiant Monster Vault ( it got YELLOW dragons! ) and the Tomes of Beast ( it got BROWN sand dragons ). Want the Codex which have orangish Wasteland dragons and I guess the Void dragons are purplish😂 Might not be fond of greedy Pinkerton Hasbro or the stubborn, kinda ignorant WotC. BUT I do with whats avaiable. I ALSO ( bye my money ) support my Nordic ttrpg publishers and creators. Like 🇧🇻Spillforlagets Dragepust and 🇸🇪Free Leagues Drakar och Drmonar. They have the BEST ease of use Solo and Co-op game modes besides standard GM+ player setup

[@searchforsecretdoors]

I want to run Tales of the Valient for my next 5e game so I will not be dependent on WotC anymore. I will probably end up being a player in at least one game using the 2024 rules though.

[@brunomastronardi990]

What does he mean by crunch when he's talking about A5E?

[@GMToolbox]

more options for more stuff. Kind of like how 3.5 was. Not overly crunchy though. But just more rules for different things to make it feel more "real". If you like those kinds of options it is great.

[@jadxq]

​ @GMToolbox My reply didn't seem to go through, so I'll just make a regular comment... "Decent job" is a bit too generous, but A5e at least seems to have attempted to balance things. The changes are mostly small, but some changes are positive steps to deal with problematic spells. Examples: Banishment allows a creature to repeat the save at the end of its turn with a -1 penalty for each round spent banished. Counterspell has a minor change in that it negates 2nd level spells and lower. You need to roll for spells of 3rd level or higher. If the counterspell succeeds, the countered spell fails but the creature can use a reaction to reshape the spell and cast another spell with the same casting time with a slot equal to or less than the original spell slot. Forcecage can be destroyed by being dealt at least 25 force damage at once or a dispel magic spell cast at 8th level or higher. Heroes Feast gives resistance to poison damage instead of immunity (2024 D&D spell now does the same). Hypnotic Pattern has had the area of effect reduced from a 30-foot cube to a 20-foot cube. Spirit Guardians has a 10-foot radius instead of a 15-foot radius. Several other changes are present in spells with an eye toward re-balancing them. Fireball does 6d6 instead of 8d6 damage (more in line with a spell's power at that level) even though that spell was not viewed as problematic by most people. 2024 D&D will have some positive changes, but from what I've learned, the attempts don't go far enough--though unlike A5e, 5.24 adds concentration to Spiritual Weapon. In any case, I wanted to like ToV, but the designers missed a golden opportunity to retune/fix/rebalance spells that really needed some attention.

[@jadxq]

IMO, the biggest con for ToV is their inexplicable decision not to "fix" the spells from 2014 D&D (contrast this with A5e, which did a decent job of fixing broken spells).

[@GMToolbox]

Can you give me a specific example? I haven't got to play A5e as I mentioned in the video so I haven't dug into spells too much. Would love to compare.

[@jadxq]

@@GMToolbox "Decent job" might be a little generous, but they did make some positive changes--although there are other spells than either weren't changed or didn't go far enough (IMO). Prior to D&D 2024, A5e altered Heroes' Feast so that it grants resistance to damage against poison instead of immunity. Forcecage can be destroyed by being dealt at least 25 pts of force damage at once or a dispel magic spell cast at 8th level or higher. For banishment, a banished creature can repeat the saving throw on each of its turns with a -1 penalty for each round it has been banished (concentration also only lasts 1d4+2 rounds). Hypnotic pattern is a 20-foot cube instead of a 30-foot cube. They re-balanced fireball so that it does 6d6 damage instead of 8d6--not a spell I viewed as problematic, but it shows they tried to re-balance some of the spells that hit higher than one might expect. Many of the changes are subtle or incremental, and I think they could have gone much further. However, they at least demonstrate that they looked at some of the problematic spells and attempted to do something about them--even if they didn't go far enough.

[@jadxq]

​@@GMToolbox "Decent job" is a bit too generous, but A5e at least seems to have attempted to balance things. The changes are mostly small, but some changes are positive steps to deal with problematic spells. Examples: Banishment allows a creature to repeat the save at the end of its turn with a -1 penalty for each round spent banished. Counterspell has a minor change in that it negates 2nd level spells and lower. You need to roll for spells of 3rd level or higher. If the counterspell succeeds, the countered spell fails but the creature can use a reaction to reshape the spell and cast another spell with the same casting time with a slot equal to or less than the original spell slot. Forcecage can be destroyed by being dealt at least 25 force damage at once or a dispel magic spell cast at 8th level or higher. Heroes Feast gives resistance to poison damage instead of immunity (2024 D&D spell now does the same). Hypnotic Pattern has had the area of effect reduced from a 30-foot cube to a 20-foot cube. Spirit Guardians has a 10-foot radius instead of a 15-foot radius. Several other changes are present in spells with an eye toward re-balancing them. Fireball does 6d6 instead of 8d6 damage (more in line with a spell's power at that level) even though that spell was not viewed as problematic by most people. 2024 D&D will have some positive changes, but from what I've learned, the attempts don't go far enough...though unlike A5e, 5.24 adds concentration to Spiritual Weapon. In any case, I wanted to like ToV, but the designers missed a golden opportunity to retune/fix/rebalance spells that really needed some attention.

[@Zr0din]

OK, so there is Nimble the addon to 5e where you speed up combat Then there is Nimble the whole new game with new Subclasses, a new Spell system and more awesome stuff. Yeah I'm following Nimble and it's looking good but I want it to be more 5e add on - streamline than I want a new game. Also, Nimble is very clearly adapted to 2024 (which is good), except for the spell system. Has anyone done a Nimble v1 to ToV evaluation?

[@lyracian]

Personally I would run DC20, Shadowdark or PF2. I will still play 5.24 D&D just because it is hard to find games as a player.

[@GMToolbox]

I really think DC20 is going to be huge! Shadowdark has a good following as well.

[@jspsj0]

I hated pf2e and don't recomend to anyone.

[@cawoodpublishing]

Original 5E with 1E style and content

[@djholland7]

Just play 1e at that point. What does 5e give?

[@1979fsa]

We call it Shadowdark.

[@Val-ym8pm]

Tales of the Valiant

[@sketchasaurrex4087]

Castle & Crusades has a great 5e

[@TrampasWhiteman]

D&D 5e hits the sweet spot for me, but I think I would definitely try out Tales of the Valiant. The A5e system recently had a science fiction kickstarter that I might look at too. Otherwise, I'm not very interested in it.

[@jspsj0]

I tried many flavors of 5e and my group always end coming back to 5e. We also tried pathfinder and hated it. We are excited for Ninble. Ried

[@Jason-96]

My Fear of missing out by not getting D&D 5.24 is starting to kick in...

[@GMToolbox]

I have it and its fine. I'm not saying you shouldn't get the phb. But there are other systems that are still 5e, that you can get your 5e group to play with minimal effort, and that they will enjoy more. Moving from 2014 to 2024 is about the same level of effort as moving from 2014 to Tales of the Valiant or A5e. Same game at the core but better improvements. I'd suggest putting them side by side for your players and have them build a character in each or at least look at the same class in each and see what they would rather play.

[@n.ludemann9199]

Fateforge, but even better Myranor 5e

[@GMToolbox]

Adding these to my list to checkout. Thanks!

[@n.ludemann9199]

@@GMToolbox Myranor 5e is german though... :) crowdfunded over 1000% and in the late pledge phase now. Myranor is set on the same gameworld like The Dark Eye, but on another, more High Fantasy continent than Aventuria.

[@Viehzerrer]

There's a Myranor 5e now? God, is nothing safe from D&D-fication...

[@n.ludemann9199]

@@Viehzerrer yes, by Uhrwerk . There was a crowdfunding, and i think 5e works better for myranor than dsa5. Ultraviolet grasslands or vaults of varn could do the job too

[@wewantthefunk73]

The black hack

[@darkknight11311]

For me combat speed is what makes me so sick of 5e, so as much as I like crunch, my attention span isn't strong enough to support several hour combats. For that reason nimble is the most appealing for me.

[@-Lindol-]

I have a Gencon 2024 PHB, this is going to be our table's go to system, I think it has a lot going for it. TotV looks too much like the OneD&D playtest for my tastes, our table did every one of those, and we liked them, but the final product of the 2024 PHB is better than what we saw there. So Saturday's I'll keep playing 5.24, and Wednesdays I'll keep playing p2e. But if you ask me which I prefer after having played them both weekly for years, it's 5.24, sue me.

[@GMToolbox]

Ya. I like much of what is in the 2024 PHB. I did a video on it last week. I am more disenchanted with the quality of many of the other products WoTC has put out. Though Book of Many Things is an exception. That book was pretty solid. Also Path of the Giants for barbarians from Glory of the Giants. But KP seems to put out solid product after solid product. There are some I use less than others but overall they have never let me down. I think my biggest thing in TOV that I like over 2024 D&D is the heritage and Lineage system over the species. Character creation is just more fun. I also REALLY like the mechanist. But you can mix and match the 2 systems pretty easy which is nice.

[@knghtbrd]

I know which option I will never play. 2024/5.5E is DOA. I'm not "all-in" on digital subscriptions, I don't want AI, I don't want microtransactions, WotC can forget selling me "digital access" to a non-PDF I can't download on their website. I despise this company for their greed and repeated abuses which include ARMED THUGS invading someone's home BECAUSE THEY SENT THE WRONG CARDS. ToV is pretty cool. It's 5E with a few tweaks. If you must buy something new to play "5E", give it a shot. As for what I'll run, anything WotC is off the table. I actually have disability reasons that made proper 5E not work for me, which means ToV is going to have the same issue. For games I ran, I homebrewed my own simplified rules which I used right up to the OGL fiascom at which point i discovered Shadowdark. It's like Kelsey Dionne took my rules and then just made them better. I'll play in 5E (not 5.5E) games or other variants, sure. But I'm running Shadowdark now.

[@GMToolbox]

@@knghtbrd ya. I need to check out shadowdark. I regret not doing so at gen con

[@davidlewis5312]

'ARMED THUGS invading someone's home BECAUSE THEY SENT THE WRONG CARDS.' not that I am defending WotC for that stupidity but this is also not what happened. 'I'm not "all-in" on digital subscriptions, I don't want AI, I don't want microtransactions, WotC can forget selling me "digital access" to a non-PDF I can't download on their website' and this isn't either.

[@hawkname1234]

@@davidlewis5312 Hey LOOK! It's a single person who actually read up on the completely free and publicly available information on all these accusations about WotC! And stood up to people saying things that aren't true! The rare honest and courageous (or at least independent-minded) person in a TTRPG forum.

[@NotQuiteAllHere]

A5e and its not even close.

[@chapman3713]

Having two versions of D&D 5e is a confusing cynical money grab.

[@GMToolbox]

You mean with WotC? Ya. They should have just called it 5.5 or 6e.

[@Nolinquisitor]

No FateForge? DC20? Everyday Heroes?

[@jaysw9585]

My problem with all these 5e adjacent games is that they are mostly just cut and paste of Dungeons and Dragons. Tales of the Valiant is straight up plagiarism. That's pretty low. None of them actually do anything different, or improve on the formula. Okay...the Lord of the Rings game does change the formula, but most of them are just the same game, which makes you wonder, why not just play Dungeons and Dragons? I get, people hate WoTC, but your still playing their game, but by playing these clones, your just encouraging plagiarism, which is just as bad as anything WoTC has done. My recommendation is just branch out, and learn another system. There are some really great games out there, that aren't any more difficult to learn. Dungeon Crawler Classic is particularly good, and not that far of a deviation to 5E that the concepts aren't difficult to grasp.

[@1979fsa]

That's what paizo did with 3.5>pf1 while wotc was moving to another style. Now wotc is moving again to another direction and i think it's ok kobold press to keep 2014 rules alive.

[@jaysw9585]

@1979fsa but WoTC isn't moving, they are just revising. DnD 3e was abandoned. It still wasn't right, but it wasnt as gross. When Zheihander came out, everyone gave them hate for copying Warhammer, but it was a different game, just the mechanics were similar. These 5e clones are almost exactly the same game and no one says anything about it.

[@GMToolbox]

@@jaysw9585 To be fair, its not plagiarism. These Clone systems including TOV have done nothing illegal. They used the SRD which is in creative commons and freely available for all to use, to build their own system from. It is VERY similar to 2014 D&D but thats the point. They have been making 5e books for 10 years and we have been buying them, not just from KP but from WoTC, and other publishers and now we can continue to use those books with these systems. TOV made many departures and changes from 5e as well, with the lineage and heritage system, luck system, and class/subclass structure. But they also gave us a clear path to adapt our material to their system. I'd call that an all around win for anyone who wants to continue to play 5e but isn't happy with WoTC for one reason or another. But also, as I said in my video, if you are looking for a bigger departure form 5e, try DC20, MCDM, Daggerheart, DCC, or one of the many many other amazing systems out there. These 5e variants are made to fit a specific niche and they do that very well.

[@jaysw9585]

@GMToolbox it may not be illegal, but it is plagerism. If you turned it in as a college paper, you'd get a 0 on your grade, a review by the school board, and likely expelled. There is so much of WoTC in Tales of the Valliant that Jeremy Crawford should get a writing credit.

[@jleonas]

@@1979fsaPF1E was not nearly as close to 3.5 as ToV is to 5E. And WotCs new direction now is not nearly as significant a departure from the current game as it was when they made 4E.

[@djholland7]

5e is not fun at all. No version of 5e is. Modern ttrpgs are focused on combat with a plethora of feats. The DM is heavily burdened with player backgrounds being spot lighted in the game. Players aren’t expected to do more than show up. Combats last hours and requires some CR balance system that again places the onus of charter survival on the DM. And the player just shows up.

[@davidlewis5312]

I mean some of these complaints contradict each other and frankly it's a challenge as a DM to kill pcs unless your players are brazenly stupid

[@jspsj0]

And some cons are a pro in my book

[@darthtc23]

None. 5e sucks. Is woke. Play a real masculine, balanced and cool game instead: D&D Rules Cyclopedea. Man up!

[@hawkname1234]

I *think* you're doing a parody of a basement-dwelling, rightwing incel loser. But you just can never tell. There are a lot of people around who are actually that pathetic.