WHIPPLE BLOWER vs LOW-BUCK TURBO-383 LS STROKER

WHAT MAKES MORE LS POWER-BLOWER OR TURBO? CHECK OUT THIS COMPARISON BETWEEN TWO 383 STROKER LS COMBINATIONS RUN AT (NEAR) THE SAME BOOST. CHECK OUT THE DIFFERENCES IN THE BOOST AND POWER CURVES OFFERED BY THE TWO DIFFERENT FORMS OF FORCED INDUCTION. WHICH ONE HAS A FLAT, CONSISTENT BOOST CURVE? WHICH ONE MAKES MORE POWER? WHICH ONE MAKES MORE TORQUE? WHICH ONE LOOKS BETTER? IT'S ALL HERE!

[@B0RN2RACE100]

“Watch me delete those comments” 😂😂😂😂

[@Madman299]

It's official, we need to buy Richard a 4l80e for his truck so he can finally boost it 🤣

[@shoes121255]

Don't forget a 14 bolt rear

[@AB-80X]

Nah. He needs a Rossler 400 with manual valve body:) Go big or go home:D

[@shoes121255]

@@AB-80X a 4l80e is essentially just a th400 with overdrive

[@shadowopsairman1583]

6L90

[@shadowopsairman1583]

@@shoes121255 its electronically controlled

[@9010Patrick]

If Richard isn't arguing with himself in every future video I am leaving. Lol

[@jimmyford271]

I learned I want to turbo charge everything I own including my lawnmower lol

[@Fixuntilbroke1]

I turboed my lawnmower, bx2370 best mod ever

[@natemartinez4595]

Seconded

[@STRATOHOLICRichman]

We need more Richard arguing with himself, LMFAO 🤣

[@Lagrange1186]

Yeah that was great. 🤣

[@tenskeeze]

Yup awesome

[@thegdfp6447]

LISA! You may want to water down those umbrella drinks for Richard.

[@waspmotorsports1317]

Great video as always, one of the best KZbin channels hands down!

[@mythos000000025]

Thank you Mr. Clean, I always enjoy! 😉

[@waybad]

Love those arguments between those two brothers in the beginning. Can’t wait till they start throwing punches🤣🤣🤣

[@richardholdener1727]

I will knock myself out!

[@daveb1870]

Love these intros, and its spot on. Some people would argue with a stump.

[@Tim_ToolMayne_Taylor]

Learned that the GT45 is an absolute beast. Thank you for continuing to use it in your tests Richard.

[@yotaismygame]

The cx racing version is much bigger than the dna eBay gt45. It’s a 80/77.

[@jayransier9901]

I really like the channel. I’ve learned allot about back pressure from watching, and just boosting in general. I’ve got a stock 4.8. Unfortunately I’ve got to rebuild the top end. I would love to see a NA shootout on different Cam’s on this platform.

[@shadowopsairman1583]

To me it sounds like you cant go wrong with either. I prefer the compactness of a blower though

[@mattmusselman6499]

Love the banter richards

[@mylesmetoyer6658]

I like how he makes it easy to understand for a young mind like mine 💪

[@spudsmckenzie4123]

Man I love your videos! Fun to watch but you learn so much from them. I like how you're very neutral about them too. Cheers from The Land Downunder. 🍻

[@richardholdener1727]

Glad you like them!

[@beartodrift5345]

I liked the opening arguement lol. Great comment arguments

[@USALT1]

LOL, your point-counterpoint at the beginning was great!

[@richardholdener1727]

thnx

[@matthewritchie3595]

Thank you Richard your the man

[@adeadlyfart13]

LOL!! I love this guy, you make me learn and laugh!

[@jonathanparker5375]

Thanks for sharing this one.

[@dazaspc]

Turbos are cool but that Whipple when you hit the throttle oh yeah

[@WalkerSmallEnginePerformance]

I used to not like turbos until I bought a F150 with the 3.5L Ecoboost and did a few modifications. Good God. I’m a convert.

[@superkillr]

Yeah because his video shows how the whipple has so much more low end torque and boost than a turbo.... WTF?

[@dazaspc]

I have a PD Blower on my 6 liter ls. I like them

[@AB-80X]

@@dazaspc I've been in this game for a long, long time. What the hell is a PD blower?

[@TwoLotus2]

@@AB-80X Police Department blower. Like on the Mad Max car.

[@normanmadden]

Before watching; Going with 15-20% more power on the turbo at the same boost level.

[@francfurian8215]

Excellent comparison Richard, both good setups. For me the turbo is the way to go, the peak torque numbers & curve alone won me over. Cheers😊

[@richardederer5331]

And then a 4.8 cam shootout will be exactly like an NA 5.3 or 6.0 shootout. They will just make slightly more power than the 4.8.

[@mikekaine2698]

Love this channel don’t think it’s one better‼️. What was the compression was the motors and can they be used in daily driver.

[@davidciesielski8251]

That was really great!!! I wonder how much more egt the turbo would make over time/ how practical that motor would be on a road course....? What a monster!!

[@Procharged32]

Like to see a bigger Whipple on it excellent video Rich.

[@navaho5430]

Whipple would be nice on the road as a DD Cheers.

[@kcdesignconcepts5216]

And even more fun on a track.

[@theozman38]

Hello Richard!!! Halarious intro. Those two have boost rage combo issues. Ok I’ll mind my own business. LOL 😂!! That whipple charger is the way to go, I would prefer it to be intergraded with the engine and let the boost be determined by the driver needs. Like a switch to go to track or extreme street racing. Dynojet has that option. But best psi for the buck is the gt45 charger. Can’t beat it!! Thanks Richard!!

[@SuperXs1100]

For off road use I definitely prefer supercharged over turbo. Don't need to be nearly as precise with gear selection.

[@blair79bear38]

try fitting tat turbo and intercooler under a cramped hood. the whipple fits on virtually anything. I'll pick the blower with its easy installation. no hot exhaust to plumb all over hells half acre.

[@JimmyLLL]

Great result. You could have really thrown things out of the ball park by letting the turbo boost higher down low and let it run out of puff and boost on its own.

[@corbinschad1]

There are losses with turbos. I don't know why everyone says there is no loss. You can't restrict the exhaust and expect no loss. Just look at the dyno graph. They both made the same power even though the blower made a little less boost. If there were no losses with the turbo, it should have made more power with less boost.

[@michaelbenardo5695]

Yup, turbos increase pumping losses. Superchargers don't.

[@hotdog9262]

one can compensate with less restrictive resonators/mufflers or even straight pipe. as for the results this is a cheap ebay turbo

[@alexnelson9828]

You should reach out to Smooth Boost, they control supercharger boost through the bypass valve. It’s a neat idea and would be a good fallow up of this video.

[@Yournotawhat]

“I will knock you the heck out “ has to be the least intimidating threat I’ve ever heard haha.

[@r3d-1truth17]

😂 😂 lmao- hilarious start! Cheers

[@bacobetts8179]

I'd like to see what a SBC 383 and 400 would get with the Edelbrock Eforce 122 Supercharger, with various boost. Nobody's shown what the bigger cube old school small block SBC engines can do with a carby fed Eaton Rotor Supercharger.

[@idriwzrd]

Lockdown has been rough on Rich.

[@james10739]

When you were talking about the to motors you should have pulled them both up just to see the difference NA

[@johnbeardsley2962]

Hahaha love the self-arguments!

[@mavsformulaful]

Bro, u shoulda used the same test motor, lol.. Im shocked how close those two motors were overall. Sweet test.

[@umakemerandy3669]

Always bobbin like a walking chicken for the intro 😊

[@richlandhillbillyperforman5425]

Ohhh who makes that black elbow the TB is mounted to? My 109 Whipple TB doesn’t clear my IACV on the 2.9. Blower belt hits the TPS. Even with the smallest pulley from Wegner it’s closer than I’d like.

[@414Chevy]

Hey, hey, you two!!!!!! Play nice in the sand box.

[@benhowe2087]

You can make a flat boost curve on the supercharger with a bypass valve or blow off valve. It would be even less efficient unfortunately as you will need to set the pressure release at the boost level attained at low rpm with the valve bleeding pressure almost all the time after that. An even smaller pulley would be needed.

[@xxjagherxx]

Kinda unfair test yeah. That is exactly what the turbo was doing blowing off it's excess the WHOLE TIME. Then not same set up for supercharger, so it never had chance to make same torque.

[@handsomeroblordandprotecto8459]

Iwould like to hear how many miles the junk yard motors have on them.And l would like to see a supercharge base test going fromm 6psi in incraments of2lbs and up

[@mtabbot]

Love it!

[@canadianmarauder1923]

I’ve heard you say every cam is a turbo cam lots but I think this is 1st time I heard every cam is a supercharger cam. This is good cause I bought stage 1 SHM n/a cams 3yrs ago and now I have an m122 for it.

[@daytradescottie7253]

Yes, everyone!

[@Freebaggin]

Good test mate. What exhaust manifolds were on the turbo setup?

[@jonathonvince561]

So it looks like you were below the efficiency on the hit with the blower. It liked the additional spin with smaller pulley.

[@kadenjohnson1072]

Another great video thanks! Have you done a video about how exhaust and intake chamber size effect the motor?

[@richardholdener1727]

port size or chamber size?

[@kadenjohnson1072]

@@richardholdener1727 port size specifically.

[@HotRodDave]

I bet that turbo set up is cheaper also. I do like the whipple and am exploring my option for an up coming drag week style build for my 65 El Camino

[@timothycarey3883]

Yes turbos are way cheaper.

[@madvtecyo546]

My truck is all stock it’s awesome 😂

[@incolink]

what was the apparent parasitic loss ? witch will have been the power difference at a given boost level? how much more boost did the Whipple need to match the turbo HP ?

[@HotRodDave]

Good one

[@ts302]

I'm a turbo guy. However I've toyed with the thought of driving a blower with a CVT type drive unit-spin the blower quicker to get the desired boost and then adjust the blower speed via the CVT to maintain the boost level-min rising boost curve.

[@thetruth5232]

Use a bigger blower and put a throttle valve paralell to the supercharger to alter boost. My car has it stock.

[@buschlightpyro660]

Great video. What was the a/r on the turbine side of that gt45 turbo?

[@ejm406]

Great comparison! Very interesting, how do you control your wastegate with the electronic controller, c02/ dome pressure? I’d like to see how you set it up.

[@richardholdener1727]

I will do a Waste gate video

[@russelljackson7034]

Right on

[@joshbergman5597]

Whipples are great. They are like a mix between a tvs and a centri blower. Tvs blowers really hit hard down low

[@ryancrisp6786]

I have a factory TVS on my CTS-V. The advantage is you're able to really spin it at lower RPM but no parasitic loss. Then the valve closes and instant torque!

[@TheMoldyOne]

I always understood if the Supercharger is working right the power curve difference is below 4000 and turbo is above 4000.

[@richardholdener1727]

THAT IS NOT ACCURATE ON EVERY COMBINATION OF SUPERCHARGER (TYPES AND SIZES) A TURBOS (SIZES)

[@TheMoldyOne]

@@richardholdener1727 turbos usually have to spool up right? While if the supercharger is sized right it usually keeps boost threw the rpm range. While turbos get more boost the higher the rpm unless your doing compound turbos.

[@shorty808100]

One of these days I would like to see a supercharger at least 12-71 or bigger on something, would really like to see a 16-71 but that would take a hell of a motor to withstand it

[@432rides]

Driving a turbo with exhaust also restricts your exhaust flow. Both take power to make power.

[@pettersaethre]

not if you swap the other restrictions to compensate

[@sinistersilverado965]

Awesome 811hp from a GT45

[@dantinkes3073]

I 100% get the idea of this comparison. But looking at your whipple boost curve I'm thinking belt slip. I struggled with belt slip forever with a 3.4 whipple 5.4 4v ford. The boost curve was always rising same as what I see in this test. Finally after switching to 10 rib pulleys 3.75 upper and a 9" lower I had the flatest boost curve yet. I had all the boosts by 3600 rpm 23.7 all the way to 7000.

[@richardholdener1727]

a rising boost curve indicates a lack of belt slip

[@dantinkes3073]

@@richardholdener1727 Would it be different on an eng dyno? On the chassis dyno under accel the run was four seconds to 7000 rpm. I was having trouble with belt slip on the sudden accel. Video showed smoke coming off the upper pulley. Peak boost was the same between the pulley setups. But the 10 rib had way more boost in the curve.

[@werks96]

@@richardholdener1727 The blower you used is a positive displacement pump. Its boost curve should be linear.

[@independentassesor2630]

Hey Richard, Run both with a super strong bottom end and give it all the boost from both the blower and turbo that it will take

[@markrich3271]

@RICHARD HOLDENER You have to check out on3 107 mm billet wheel journal bearing gt55 with the proper engine combo it's good for 2500hp and it cost 1000$ . It's the cool new turbo. Put that on your big bang motor. I've seen dyno test of 300hp increase at the wheel vs s488 running same boost levels on compounds. That's sweet.

[@richardholdener1727]

300 HP AT THE SAME BOOST LEVEL?

[@markrich3271]

@@richardholdener1727 no that would be awesome but not realistic , it was on a diesel cummins. It would make 80 psi max with the s488 and 115psi with the on3 107mm gt55 . Also needed more fuel with that air flow . Just goes to show the cfm the larger turbo added that cfm can be seen as a restriction in boost.

[@DBSSTEELER]

Yay Super Ritchie split personality argument!

[@deanbryan3034]

What a supercharger needs is a cvt style drive, spin it harder low down then bring it back when the boost requirements are made haha or a turbine bolted to the back.

[@corystansbury]

Procharger i-1

[@h22bomb]

Just run a TVS blower, damn near flat boost curve

[@timothybayliss6680]

Cvt belts are nonsense. They also have really high radial loads. the tension on the belt is one part of where in the shifting pattern it is. A serpentine belt is actually really good, they take up a minimal amount of room, the pullies are monolith and typically never fail and have no maintenance. Adding a Cvt might give you a little more torque but at huge complexity.

[@scotttod6954]

Cvt runs opposite of what you would want though. It starts with low gearing and runs to higher. You would want it to start high and then low to keep a flat boost pressure. It would be interesting setting up back shift and secondary ramps. Again though you would have to run inverted pulleys or something weird to get the desired effect.

[@corystansbury]

@@scotttod6954 A CVT can start wherever you want. We don't need to debate this. The i-1 already exists.

[@bryanphipps9131]

Lol thats a great idea to argue! To make fun of the haters!

[@ls4.8frank]

Turbo almost always produces closer power to torque numbers given the proper setup. Supercharged the numbers are farther apart

[@chrisraven8076]

dont know how it will do on a dyno, but im still curious about compound boost. best of both worlds. hoping for this in the future

[@youtubesecurity5702]

Do a stock bottom end 302 with a b cam tfs heads vic jr and nos 200 to 300 hp shot

[@rchalmers3]

Twin-screw Supercharging an engine cost so much that I think many of us find turbo-charging is preferable. If the costs to fit all types of forced induction were equal, our discussions would be about how to apply each power adder to specific engine displacements and specific usage.

[@sylumgand]

Outside of Top Fuel, you get a supercharger for the looks and sound these days. The performance gain is just a bonus. I don't know anyone who would build a motor for raw power with a blower, it will always be turbines. Be it exhaust run or belt driven. As for expense, if you buy 1 quality turbo its about the same. If you buy two its more expensive, but also twice as powerful again. $2500 for a blower is not that far off $1500-2000 for a quality turbo.

[@KTger]

@@sylumgand What are you talking about? Legit turbo kits are not cheap and just as expensive as a Superchargers. You are talking $7,000-$10,000 for either kit. You don’t see big twin screws on street cars because the torque they create causes the tires to break loose. This is why you see more pro charged or turbo set ups with more aggressive street/track builds. Generally speaking Turbo’s are much easier on internal parts, transmissions, rear ends and advantages in tuning. New Whipple 3.8L is making 2500hp on Coyote and Hemi Applications with appropriate engine build to support. The old negative about superchargers 10-15yrs ago was they were extremely inefficient and didn’t make power like Turbos could. That’s now vastly changed with technology, and now you have guys running deep 8’s on truck and car applications with just mere supercharger at full factory car weight. ATI Racing was running 6.60’s with a Iron 388 and a old Gen 4.5 Whipple in a 3,000lb car. Now they moved to a Billet Block and new 3.8L with the intent to chase 5’s. That’s how far superchargers have come.

[@sylumgand]

@@KTger If you are spending $7k+ on a turbo setup, you're paying for the names and labor to install it. And you cant even use the old saying "You pay for quality" because everything is shit anymore.

[@KTger]

@@sylumgand I’m not even taking about expensive competition turbos. Top of the line stuff can run you $5,000+ similar to the 98mm Pro Mod Gen2 I once had from PTE. Raw materials alone isn’t as cheap as you’re making it, whether you put it together or someone else does ( time is money, no matter how you slice it ). You also need the machinery to begin with in order to even fabricate. 🤣🤣.

[@sylumgand]

@@KTger You are talking about top of the line stuff. I have a big single(not 98mm but 76mm) rear mount. The turbo was $280, charge tubing was $150, BOV $50, fuel regulator $150, 2.5in exhaust tubing $125, didnt even bother with a wastegate so toss another $150 I have to spend, $150 for the hat to mount on my Sniper, $80 for oil lines because a hydraulic shop is nearby and its easier to have them make them for me. No where near $2000 and it runs and drives, not taking it past 8psi until I put it on a dyno and have someone who knows fueling handle it. I have more invested in the super sniper and hyperspark ignition system, than I do the turbo equipment. And I could have still done the rear mount without the fancy Holley shit.

[@dogprowilhelm7630]

1 GT-45 at 800HP is awesome. What about 2×GT-45 an easy 1,000HP with the proper cam? The bottom end seems stout, but a lower compression piston might stave detination.

[@richardholdener1727]

2 GT45S COULD DO 1500+ HP

[@speedracer7428]

What size Whipple and what size turbo is being used ?

[@fredericrike5974]

Richard, you and Ritchie need to get along better! Didn't your mother tell you better than that! Loved the twins bit- lots of general info and a hoot to boot! FWIW, I would love to see the "equalized" boost format you described. Now, how is the "Nova" coming?

[@richardholdener1727]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@fredericrike5974]

@@richardholdener1727 Very few people can make a review of charts and figures entertaining and informative- you manage that on a regular basis. Probably drives your wife nuts- but she was likely "different" to begin with. I'm a NA guy at heart, but beginning to learn enough sound , sensible info on boost I might just make an exception come next toy. You are crazy, Richard- don't change!

[@lawrencegarcia1370]

After watching every video in this library I've found a new reverence for boost! I have a 4.8 sitting under a tarp guess what it's getting boooooost!!!

[@aw9680]

The sudden Beavis and Butthead moment... 🤣

[@TheProchargedmopar]

👍

[@Lagrange1186]

That turbo 383...😍. Have you done any turbo blow thru carb 383 LS testing? That GT-45 seems like instant boost. Bet it would make one killer street combo! You know.... if you were the 800 hp daily kinda guy 🤣

[@hoonaticbloggs5402]

Why would you want a carb on an LS ?

[@Lagrange1186]

@@hoonaticbloggs5402 call me an old school fan. I can tune a carb... fuel injection... takes more equipment than a few wrenches and screw driver 🤷🏼‍♂️ ( p.s. yes I know fuel injection slaughters carburetors on performance in almost every aspect... I just like an old 4 barrel 😏)

[@troylambert5140]

I'm absolutely convinced a CSU blow through on the LS 383 will totally decimate the fuel injected numbers. Evaporative cooling is superior although fuel economy would be down but if it's a weekend toy hell yes!

[@nerd1000ify]

Fuel Injection gets evaporative cooling too. It just happens inside the cylinder rather than the manifold, so it's.less obvious.

[@jamesbosworth4191]

@@hoonaticbloggs5402 No damn computers and sensors to have to worry about.

[@trevorthomas6043]

Do you think using electric waste gate good for a street car?

[@snivesz32]

I wish he would dyno from 2000 rpm for each run to actually show the true difference. eg a turbo that hasn’t spooled up yet vs a supercharger that’s always on.

[@richardholdener1727]

you drag race a lot from 2000 rpm?

[@g1967]

@ the beginning they look like they could be brothers..lol

[@bcbloc02]

Turbos for the win!

[@AB-80X]

You know, the guy who's doors I blew off during a heads-up race last fall had a similar thought. Legend has it that he is still sitting at the line, waiting for his turbos to spool, asking himself what happened...

[@deanbryan3034]

The first minute "When dyno testers answer stupid" lol

[@rmorris3722]

Your best video, lol

[@The3chordwonder]

Boost won this competition. I'm curious, at ~800hp, how much more fuel was the whipple using? I think that would help illustrate how much less efficient the SC was. Also, why couldn't supercharger manufacturers put a CVT into the input shaft of the SC, so that it could more of less keep the drive speed flat, resulting in a fairly flat boost curve? Seems like a no brainer to me? Great test and thank you as usual for doing these tests!

[@SoulTouchMusic93]

i wondered about it too but i guess it's the responsiveness of the cvt that's not there yet. imagine being at iddle and the thing being in boost, read as "6th gear" on the supercharger and then you revv it in neutral and the thing blows itself apard because the cvt doesnt downshift in time.

[@nerd1000ify]

It's been done, e.g. the DB600 series of German WW2 plane engines had a hydraulic CVT driving their centrifugal supercharger. In that case, the CVT was controlled based on altitude so the engine wouldn't overboost down low where the air is denser. Power was still regulated by the throttle. The Allies used a simpler system where there were two sets of supercharger drive gears, and a clutch to switch between them. While less complex, it had the downside of creating a range of altitudes where low gear couldn't provide full boost but high gear would overboost unless the engine was throttled back. The low gear also generally was too fast for sea level, so some throttling was needed at low altitude in low gear as well. Thankfully they had boost controlled throttle bodies to handle this so the pilot didn't have to watch the boost gauge all the time. I've often thought the latter system would be good for hotrods, you could have a mild low gear for less heat and fuel use during normal driving, and a wild high gear for smoking tyres. Ideally with a Mad Max style lever to switch between them.

[@JosephVE3GKT]

It's been done, Procharger made the i1 a while back. Centrifugal superchargers are more efficient than whipple type. I guess it was too expensive for most people.

[@The3chordwonder]

@@JosephVE3GKT Thank you, that is really awesome. Speed costs money, right? :)

[@nissman3]

What are the specs on that turbo used?

[@button-puncher]

Richard, got a big Procharger laying around to put on a 4.8L? I've always wondered if you could get a flatter boost curve by using an oversized centrifugal supercharger and had a boost controller connected to the BOV to bleed excess boost at high RPMs. Even though it's oversized, theoretically because it's generating lower pressure, it'd wouldn't be a massive power hog vs using a smaller SC. But the bigger SC would be less efficient...hmm. It'd be a be a waste instead of using a turbo but It'd still be interesting. If anything it'd be good at blowing any leaves out from under your hood. :D

[@richardholdener1727]

we have done that

[@incolink]

So many Die-hard blower fanbois can't comprehend the turbo making 5 more pounds of boost at 3500rpm banging on about the size and putting a CVT transmission on it this was a very decent blower totally humiliated by a 300$ wuhan war whisle if you want to put a CVT on the blower lets put a good VGT turbo in there and see how that plays out another sluaghter no doubt

[@dielauwen]

How about charts showing cfm per horsepower .And a chart showing throttle body area per horsepower. Maybe you could do that from previous tests. CAT want to know.

[@jimhodges3471]

If you had a do over with the big Cadillac, what turbo (or turbos) would you like to try?

[@richardholdener1727]

the Gt45 or s475

[@michaelponzi5267]

Do you have any data down low in the rpm range? 2000rpm and on. Would like to see the torque and hp curves down low coming off idle and the boost curves as well to see when each one starts to come in, how fast each can build boost

[@richardholdener1727]

no-I don't run WOT at 2000 rpm

[@Gear_Banger]

I just wanna see the NA then the super then the turbo on the same engine…. Of course that takes time and work but it’s on a dyno so plenty of room to work.

[@ZONES89RS]

Blower tax wasn’t so bad on this for some reason. Maybe the turbo was just already pushing pretty hard

[@hoonaticbloggs5402]

It would be nice to know intake air temps on both combinations

[@TwoLotus2]

Yep, good point.

[@lte008]

Use the turbo and whipple.

[@AB-80X]

Hey Mr. Boost:) I have a question you might be able to answer and talk about in a video. Why is it that the twin screw blowers like Whipple and Kenne Bell don't give the same snappy throttle response the classic Roots blowers have? While the screw blowers do compress the air in the rotor section, they are still predominantly positive displacement blowers just like the Roots blowers. What's your take on this?:)

[@richardholdener1727]

I wasn't aware that twin screws lacked snappy throttle response

[@AB-80X]

@@richardholdener1727 I didn't mean as in not snappy at all. But with the stuff I've done, I've never seen them be as "explosive" in their throttle response as a classic Roots. Not sure how else to explain it.