Who is Arthur Fleck's Father? | Joker Movie Theory (The Fangirl)

Who is Arthur Fleck's real father? And, for that matter, who is the real villain of Joker? The answer is probably one in the same!
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#jokermovie #arthurfleck #TheFangirl #dceu

[@theticknarthur]

They did mention Penny's boyfriend. She was committed because they found Arthur beaten nearly to death and chained to a radiator in Penny's apartment. Her boyfriend was sentenced to 30 years for attempted murder and she was committed to Arkham. Arthur became a ward of the state until he became an adult and assumed responsibility as his mother's caregiver.

[@theticknarthur]

@Khadijat Buhari That is an odd statement? To What are you replying?

[@brandiarmstrong2902]

@Khadijat Buhari I agree with that question marked statement. ??? I don't understand the relevance of the date-correction statement at this time. Care to elaborate?

[@A_Classy_Phoenix]

One thing that doesn't make a lot of sense to me about the movie: In Penny's file Arthur finds a newspaper article about how she abused him. The cops found him beaten, malnourished, and chained to a radiator. The thing that doesn't make any sense to me: why was Arthur released back into her custody? He would have been taken away by CPS. Also, why wouldn't Arthur remember that? I mean, I kind of get it because I have a lot of repressed trauma, but I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't remember being chained to a radiator, beaten and starved for days. *Edit for typos

[@calliemyersbuchanan6458]

I don't ever think he went back into her custody. He was an adult by the time she got out and so decided to be her caretaker, meaning legally she is dependent on him, not the other way around.

[@razorjake]

If he was released back to her...... It was because, the 70's! -_- they didn't really give enough crap about child abuse.........

[@JokerzPrincezz]

I imagine the abuse was blamed on the ex and once he was out of the picture and penny showed at least moderate progress, Arthur was released back to her. This is how it usually works in cases where either mom or dad is abusive. Once the abusive partner is out of the picture, the other parent is free to raise their kids again.

[@FienxFlames]

Because who he is now in the movie is an alter ego. One who can survive that kind of event by never having gone through it. He changes egos again and thats what the movies about. Alters.

[@jobdiaz3822]

@ the fangirl you said 2009 instead of 2019

[@TheFangirlWatches]

What year is it where you are?! 😱😂

[@jobdiaz3822]

@@TheFangirlWatches 2020

[@wesleywolfe2]

2009!:0 Wow, time traveler confirmed

[@TheFangirlWatches]

You mean it didn't just turn to 2010 where you live? 😂

[@badlilkitty96]

She did have an ex boyfriend that beat arthur.

[@gonzalomarino7381]

Man! I could hear this woman talk for hours and never get tired, I can't put my finger on it but there's something about her voice that I really like. Nice video by the way, very entertaining!

[@ninetteveratinez6578]

I agree, if she could do audio books I would be her first listener 🤞

[@krissypyne3783]

Same here, I just got done listening to her playlist on Coraline, which is 40 videos long, but somehow I'm still hunting around for more.

[@TheFangirlWatches]

Daaaaarn! You guys are over here making me blush, lol. Believe me, I see a LOT of comments about my voice but it's really rare to see people say they like the way I speak (apparently, I have a thick Pennsylvanian accent, despite never having been to/near Pennsylvania, lol). Thank you guys! And, hey, if you ever see someone who needs a weird-o voice over for a video - send them my way lol 😘

[@calliemyersbuchanan6458]

The way I see it 1) Thomas and Penny were never in a relationship 2) Thomas used his privileged status and manipulative power to use Penny sexually. 3) Through her mental illness, she believed his words and saw it as deep and passionate love. (This is why there is such a societal issue of whether the consent of a mentally disabled adult is legally valid) 4) The adoption papers were a brilliant public cover up. Not only did they dissociate father and son, but they also served to gas-light Penny sending her into deeper mental distress and cognitive dissonance. (and like you said, who would ever let someone with her mental and financial status adopt a child!) 5) The abusive boyfriend is irrelevant. Either way, that is NOT his father. He was adopted by Penny or fathered by Thomas...one of the two.

[@calliemyersbuchanan6458]

ALSO from Thomas's perspective, in addition to everything you said, this is also the creepy dude who put his fingers in his son's mouth. yeah NOT cool!

[@TheFangirlWatches]

I have no doubt that Penny had a lot more stock in the relationship than Thomas Wayne did. He probably cycled through the help, turning on the charm and flashing some cash, and then discarding the women after he had his fun and got bored (or they started getting attached). And, as much as that finger scene was gross, it did give Wayne a heads up that Arthur was lurking around and likely to confront him. Which means, when Arthur does talk to Thomas, Tommy boy has already had time to prepare what to say. We never get to see Wayne's REAL reaction because he already knew Arthur was seeking him out.

[@jobdiaz3822]

alfred could be the father because at the time penny would of been working for thomas alfred would of been working for thomas too plus in the film alfred seems so sure that arthur is not the son of thomas wayne i have read a lot batman comics and i dont think alfred is the type person to lie about thomas having a secret son

[@noisykrickett7758]

job diaz this movie doesn’t take place in any existing Batman universe. It’s a lone, self contained story.

[@DudeitsVero]

I nearly had a panic attack in the theater watching that movie. When you find out your worse through a movie . 🙃

[@devvynully]

Based on that scene where Penny is being interrogated at the police station, it felt like they were trying to break her in a psychological way. My take from that is Thomas Wayne asked his police friends to make her an unreliable witness by making her look crazy, and then she got medicated for her craziness, which made her have all of the necessary symptoms for people to think she always had it. I also wonder if Penny's ex boyfriend was a plant/setup by Wayne to make sure she spiralled down and to trigger a traumatic/criminal event.

[@TheFangirlWatches]

For as much fanfare as Joke has had, I would have almost preferred a backstory movie with Penny just to know all the nitty gritty details going on here. She's so docile in the film, and even today MANY Rx's are given out wrongfully to people who don't need them and it messes up their way of thinking. There's so many open options with Penny that I so want to know more!!

[@raven3067]

Wait you said 2009

[@daniagadborg2026]

Oh good it wasn't just me who heard that. ^^

[@tempestjewel]

I heard that too XD

[@TheFangirlWatches]

Did I? Lol that sounds like me I never know what freaking year it is 🤣

[@peg637]

I thought I was bugging lol.

[@tempestjewel]

@@TheFangirlWatches I feel that XD

[@gingermaniac5484]

You know a channel is good when you click off an mlp music tribute for the notifications heheh Thanks fan mom!

[@TheFangirlWatches]

I thank you for your enthusiasm 💕

[@JokerzPrincezz]

Yo how you gonna just skip over the whole traumatic brain injury and abusive ex plot line? :/

[@s0me.edit0r]

Like how the rebels in Hunger Games are the good guys too

[@katiesherman6517]

I know Penny wasn’t painted as a bad person for the majority of the movie, but that’s because the movie was filmed through Arther’s eyes. He didn’t see his mother as bad through the majority of the movie. It was only when he had to come face to face with the facts that he realized the horrific situation he was in. He had been beaten half to death by her and that’s more than likely where his laughing problem comes from. But yeah, I don’t doubt that she wants him to have a happy life out there with Thomas or something of the like. It’s just really hard to overlook the terrible things she has done.

[@dunraptoress5126]

Someone may have mentioned this already, but after Penny has died. Arthur Fleck is holding a photo of his mother. Read what is written on the back of the photo of Penny. Pay close attention to the initials of the writer. "T. W." Thomas Wayne? :)

[@AshutoshTiwari532-]

Yeah exactly , also during encounter with wayne , he (Wayne) was evidently saying you (arthur) were adopted . How could he know ?Or he was deliberately saying that to make look his hands clean .

[@sammyvargas4368]

Made it to the end like always...cant wait to see what's next.

[@TheFangirlWatches]

Monday is set for A Silent Voice character case study. :)

[@fabiolopes3629]

The Fangirl is perfect

[@TheFangirlWatches]

Thanks hon! Love ya! 😘💕

[@katiehutchins4667]

Thank you.... it’s funny I actually just finished watching this movie two or three weeks ago for the first time and I was confused about this exact thing and as I’m watching your videos I see you made this one so thank you again!!! And please please please please do some stuff about Harley Quinn!!!!

[@devvynully]

It's also possible that Arthur's mental condition was caused by the medications. It doesn't mention how long he is on them but I thought it was for a long time. Like that he had some issues growing up, so they medicated an otherwise normal person and the long term use of those meds made him susceptible to developing something, including sympathetic symptoms from his mother.

[@TheFangirlWatches]

I didn't consider that in this video, but it is true that psychotropic medications can alter your brain, especially if you're taking them before the age of 25 (when the brain is supposed to be fully developed). When I was a foster parent they used to just drown the kids in psychotropics to make them complacent zombies and, from where I was standing, that seemed to be ruining their lives for the long-haul.

[@brandiarmstrong2902]

If Wayne was Arthur's dad, then the real tragedy isn't that both of Bruce's parents were shot right in front of him, but that Arthur has a majorly evil man for his father. Yes, in this case, the villain is not the man hiding behind face paint, laughing uncontrollably at literally anything. The true villain is the man who let the entire city of Gotham go to crap, and then decided to run for mayor again, turning his vitriol on the working class, and the mentally ill. Gotham sounds more like my home state every day.

[@captainbeastwinger4940]

5:10 hehe penny doesn't want arthur to be pennyless after she dies

[@denisejeffries2675]

Thank you for the video! Suggestion for a theory video: Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. Also, I really enjoy your character studies!

[@TheFangirlWatches]

Oooh I haven't seen Chitty Chitty Bang Bang but I've always meant to. 🤔

[@TheFangirlWatches]

Oh and Monday is a character case study on Shouko from A Silent Voice (ani-yay!).

[@denisejeffries2675]

Looking forward to your upcoming video! Chitty is a fun old movie, one of the rare times I prefer the film to the book. Would love to hear your take on it and who your favorite character is! Mine was Grandpa Potts played by Lionel Jeffries. Thanks again for all you do!

[@ivanterrible7362]

There is an argument to be had on the nurture vs. nature causation of delusional behavior and whether an otherwise "normal" child brought up in an "abnormal" situation might have a skewed sense of reality, healthy relationships, what have you. I took the film as a study in how a toxic world results in a twisted world in which heroes don't (can't) exist.

[@overlycaffeinatedsquirrel779]

Called folie à plusiers, or "the madness of many. A shared psychotic disorder is a rare type of mental illness in which a healthy person starts to take on the delusions of someone who has a psychotic disorder such as schizophrenia. Shared psychotic disorders usually happen only in long-term relationships in which the person who has the psychotic disorder is dominant and the other person is passive.These pairs tend to have a close emotional connection to each other. But apart from that, they usually don’t have strong social ties.We can see that fits them perfect. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now this is not a judgement. And is in no way true of everyone as there are many factors we don;t know. Research has found that adopted children are at risk for suffering from mental health disorders. Twelve to 14 percent of adopted children in the United States between the ages of 8 and 18 are diagnosed with a mental health disorder each year, and adopted children are almost twice as likely as children brought up with their biological parents to suffer from mood disorders like anxiety, depression, and behavioral issues.Add to the fact he doesn't remember his abuse.Well, (PBA) is a condition that's characterized by episodes of sudden uncontrollable and inappropriate laughing or crying. Pseudobulbar affect typically occurs in people with certain neurological conditions or injuries, which might affect the way the brain controls emotion. If you have pseudobulbar affect you'll experience emotions normally, but you'll sometimes express them in an exaggerated or inappropriate way.Pseudobulbar can be managed with medication, but at the time Joker was set often went undiagnosed or is mistaken for mood disorders.So this is why his medication did very little when he hadiit. His visions are interesting as most are power fantasies. He seems to know these aren't true. Many factors can lead to psychosis. Such as injury or mental health conditions. What we do know is that during an episode of psychosis, the brain is basically in a state of stress overload. Stress can be caused by anything, including poor physical health, loss, trauma or other major life changes. When stress becomes frequent, it can affect your body, both physically and mentally. When a brain can no longer effectively process a certain level of stress, the processing of information and emotions is impacted, resulting in trouble perceiving reality,. So by then it's all up in the air. We see Joker go through movie extreme version of all that. So being adopted likely to contribute. Though the movie is to subjective as what he wets, to clocks in the background show the work that went into it. Sorry this was so long

[@somethinunameit637]

I'd love to see your dyed hair braided

[@TheFangirlWatches]

Aww man that's not a bad idea but irl it's all starting to fade pretty bad at this point lol

[@pixelalien5059]

I now that this could be just a cuinidens but Thomas Wayne has brown hair and a similar face structure to joker. And penny has blonde hair Which could help with the adoption thing but I think this is something to think about

[@PaigeSinclaire]

Thomas Wayne reminded me of Bloomberg lol

[@griffionpatton7753]

Ah, they made the movie Joker. It was in the can, and ready to show. The studio said, "Change it, or we will kill it." So the 4324953 key points. The actors took a moral stand, and refused to do a reshoot. That last scene? Never happened in the original movie. Not the same woman playing the social worker. Joker walking away? They don't show his face. Different actor. Points? Batman and joker are brothers. That young woman was his girlfriend. The movie ends with Joker standings in the riot realizing he found his place.

[@sydneypitts7692]

Where did you get your Anime poster? Is your light blue hair dye permanent or temporary??

[@ashleymartinsonforever3131]

This theory is interesting. Makes sense in a way. In a way I do feel bad for Arthur, I don't condone his actions.. still very sad.. Your theories are always fascinating and it's interesting to hear your thoughts. It's possible. It makes sense... That's one way to look at that. Maybe Thomas was his real dad but chose to keep silent. Shrugs. Awesome video Always be amazing 💜💙.

[@TheFangirlWatches]

Oh there's no excusing Joker's actions, especially long-term in the DC universe, but everyone has a story so it's interesting to see where Arthur's rabbit hole goes.

[@ashleymartinsonforever3131]

@@TheFangirlWatches exactly. I agree with you 💯. Still it will be interesting to see where this story goes and sees what happens next.

[@lisettegarcia7013]

Fangirl, I have watched Joker and me and my entire family and we liked it. Even my grandmother and she isn't a big superhero universe movie fan. I do think Penny is responsible for making Arthur (Just my opinion) like this since she did lied to him all his life. I'm also good with psychiatry but I don't know who had a bad childhood after watching Joker and Birds of Prey. You can't let mental problems go out of control, keep it a secret, and/or let your loved ones suffer. Be there for them.

[@Dragonlove3]

Awesome

[@sighingsaichania7033]

Made it to the end!

[@PlasticSinks]

5:10 "pennyless" 🤦‍♂️

[@TheFangirlWatches]

Sometimes you choose the pun life. Sometimes it chooses you. 🤣

[@redjirachi1]

Cracked made a theory that the Joker is Batman's brother before this movie came out.

[@andrealee8561]

Did we watch a different movie because once he got his files n found out what his mother and her boyfriend did to him as a child.

[@dreamwishergirl]

Can you do a video on the Netflix show Marianne?

[@TheCartoonluver23]

I think the delusional aspect of Arthur could be the abuse from the ex byofriend mentioned in the newspaper article he saw but your theory makes a lot of sense

[@ashlynfoster192]

Dumbdoors army

[@jessicalunar7857]

I love you 🦋

[@rewriter3981]

If you watch *2009’s* joker movie

[@monroerobbins7551]

Honestly, I feel like I need to say something that people might get mad about: Thomas Wayne isn’t the villain. He’s a tool, he doesn’t have tact, but not the villain. The villain seems to be a domino effect: Fleck was abused and put into the system (or if the records were faked, that he was abused for years, or he was just mentally ill and had a mentally ill mother, and had no father), and he was apparently in a system that was failing, same as the other protestors. The system created, or contributed to the creation of, a guy with nothing to lose. When Fleck killed those guys, high profile children of rich people that people were already ticked at, things fell into place for a revolution, all that being piled on by Wayne’s lack of tact and arrogance on television, a disconnect in a situation he would already be very defensive in. I’m not saying it’s excusable, I’m saying it’s a bit more realistic. And in the end, everything fell into place. Joker was born, Wayne was killed, as well as his wife, leaving a child alone, a privileged kid thrown into a similar system Fleck had to struggle through, except with a thinner wall for him to peer through. It’s like they’re two pawns in the same chess game, and it’s not Thomas controlling the pieces, neither is Mrs. Fleck. There is no villain, IMO; it seems too complex for that. Though, I’m probably wrong, and feel free to correct me. I just feel like we can’t point the finger at one person, whether you read the film with the grain or against the grain.

[@TheFangirlWatches]

In terms of the Batman universe, no Thomas Wayne was not a villain. And, even in terms of this movie, he did nothing that warranted getting killed. Also, you're not wrong that the "caring government" system really failed Arthur HARD. But, it we look at this movie from the Joker's perspective, and we take in all the different people - who would be the most villainous in his eyes? I really think Thomas Wayne is the answer. IF Thomas had acknowledge Arthur as his son, Arthur's life as an adult would change to where he might be living in the lap of luxury and receiving the best medical care. Or, IF Thomas had acknowledged Arthur at birth, his mother would have been better cared for, maybe no dying, and Arthur would have skipped over a lot of traumas. He would, arguably, have a good life in either scenario. But, with Wayne coldly rejecting Arthur, that was like taking a dream and stabbing it to death right in front of dreamer. It might not be his snapping point, but it's definitely a major tipping point for him. So, from Arthur-vision, Wayne is the ultimate bad guy - the rich dude who refuses to share and spits on the disposable nobodies. Wayne is the one character who not only hurt Arthur, but who hurt Penny, and that is unforgivable for a son of a struggling, single mother. Don't forget, even with Arthur being a creepy creeper, Thomas did have forewarning that Arthur might approach him after showing up at his home. So, we didn't get Thomas truly caught off guard and scrambling to think of an answer, he was already prepared to be confronted at some point. And that means it would be easier for Thomas to have his response predetermined, which really came off (in my opinion) during the confrontation.

[@monroerobbins7551]

The Fangirl, ohhhh, from Arthur’s perspective, okay, that I get. Sorry, I get it now.

[@poisonivystar4]

I click on your theories because I enjoy the theories...and I have no intention of watching The Joker. The movie just doesn't interest me. But, had to watch your theory on it.

[@mathieuleader8601]

Maybe thomas had a twin brother

[@IndyCrewInNYC]

Hey! I made it to the end! Btw an ex-boyfriend inflicted the brain trauma Arthur suffers from.✌

[@Missydev02]

Thier was a second male mentioned The abusive ex boyfriend that tide Arthur to a radiator during the scene ware penny is being evaluated by the doctor the doctor says they found Arthur in the basement

[@strawberry_2.0]

2009........................

[@TheFangirlWatches]

Is this not 2010? lol

[@jadepeppermint2734]

I don't know who the real father is but Thomas Wayne seems like a jerk to me witch is saying something about how his son is so different from dear old dad

[@TheFangirlWatches]

I think it would be so neat if DC redid this movie from Thomas Wayne's perspective so we could really FEEL both sides.

[@jadepeppermint2734]

@@TheFangirlWatches that would be awesome

[@hairsprayguy84]

Thomas Wayne was an alcoholic in the bronze age and hit Bruce regretted it and gave up the drink then took Bruce and Martha to make amends Bruce told his mom he hated his dad and wished he was dead, Bruce Lived to regret it

[@sammyvargas4368]

Ohhh yes give me the darkness!!!!!!😈😈😈😈

[@TheFangirlWatches]

🌕🌖🌗🌘🌑🌒🌓🌔 All the phases of the moon darkness for you lol

[@BoPeep031]

Heeey! I made it to the end!😘

[@TheFangirlWatches]

Thank you kindly Bo! 💕

[@Lilitu4242]

Not going to watch still haven't seen it. But keep up the good work and see you next time.

[@TheFangirlWatches]

No worries, thanks for dropping by anyways! Monday is A Silent Voice (which I believe is still on Netflix or Hulu if you haven't seen it yet).

[@hairsprayguy84]

What are you some religious Zealot who hated violence

[@Lilitu4242]

Broke and have to wait.

[@Lilitu4242]

@@hairsprayguy84 what does that have to do with anything tho

[@hairsprayguy84]

Oh I thought you weren't going to watch the joker movie because of some she reason

[@brandiarmstrong2902]

Dang it, Megan! Your spoilers ruined the movie for me! Lol! Jk. I've seen this movie 20x. Love hearing from you, hun! 😉

[@johnhayward998]

That sounds almost like mina loveberry when she was attacked by the dark horse when she was attacked she cried out for the ghost of solria for help and then she is still loyal to her even though her queen didn't help so mina is really misted up in the head