How To: 5 Flow Profiles for E61 Group Espresso Machines

[@mgislao7]

Thanks for mentioning me, Mark! I’m going to try your recommendations and report back. Keep the ultra helpful videos coming! BTY, received my Eureka Mignon and love it, thanks!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Mario, You are welcome. As mentioned in the video it's wonderful to hear from end users like you. I appreciate the feedback! Will keep the videos coming. Do report back on your experiences using the profiles and happy to hear you are enjoying your new grinder. Marc

[@markusalexzander5891]

Instablaster

[@cayero]

I so appreciate this video. I replicated the lever shot on my Profitec Drive and it removed so much acidity from my shot. I was pleasantly surprised how much it changed my shot profile while still using the same roast.

[@markbeaulieu5292]

Used my Bezzera Duo with the new style flow valve set to about 3.5 g/s made a awesome coffee shot this morning. I ground the coffee to a very fine pour over setting, 19 grams of coffee and it ran in about 45 seconds. Incredible! May never go back to pour over.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey mb, thanks for sharing your experience! Flow control dose open up a whole new world of possibilities! Marc

[@starmartyr]

My Bezzera Duo MN w/FC arrives in a day or two and I'm so excited to try this as well! 😊 How has it been over time for you?

[@markbeaulieu5292]

@@starmartyr I love my machine and it’s been flawless. The only surprise was the new factory flow control is different than what I was watching on KZbin. Now that I’ve used it for a couple months it does everything that I want it to do just know that the flow rates are completely different.

[@starmartyr]

​@markbeaulieu5292 oh no kidding, what is it that's different - is it that the pressure is only equal or less than the regular flow amount? I know in the video Mark talks about some flow control machines allowing higher flow with the flow control valve, which I read in the Bezzera manual is not the case... P.s. I just got my machine today and took a few hours getting set up and acquainted! Love it, but flow control will come after I master a regular flat profile shot, which is still TBD 😁

[@syedakauserinamdar9199]

Everyone using flow control should watch this video! I appreciate the different profiles listed based on coffee type and I’m excited to experiment with the Profitec 700!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Glad it was helpful! Marc

[@AngryVal]

Thank you SO much for this - I am awaiting arrival of my Profitec 500 with flow control (which I bought as a way to future proof the machine from my growing coffee nerdiness) and this has given me an excellent understanding of how to get the most out of it. Cannot WAIT to try this with a variety of blends!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi VV, You are welcome and thanks for the comment! You'll find more flow profile info here including graphs of the various profiles: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines Marc

[@jasonkrick1614]

The fresh and light profile has been the elusive formula I was looking for. Was considering replacing my Profitec 700 with FC for a Synesso or Slayer. But now that I am on the road to learning and perfecting the manual flow control I have been looking for. These machines don’t even cross my mind anymore. Thanks Marc!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi JK, You are welcome. Flow control provided you with the tools of much more expensive machines! Marc

[@Kinnnnnnnnn1]

changing and experimenting with flow is really interesting! Thanks for the video!!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi David, You're welcome and thank you for the comment! Marc

[@jessybwoy8677]

Well, you just convinced me that i need a flow control for my Majister stella pro ! Let's throw some more money on this machine ! my girlfriend is gonna be mad at you !

[@33Moretti]

Hi Marc, I had always had some issue with my espresso being overly sour. (To mention I am pretty new to brewing espresso with a dualboiler) I tried everything (grind size, brew temp, 1:2, 1:3, overextraction) But I could not find the problem. I had a flow control installed and measured my flow by an app. Now because of your video I started from ground up...and figured out, that my flow was way off. I tried your flow profile for lighter roast and experienced a truly wonderful shot, even tasting the sweet notes I was always searching for. Thank you very much for your effort! Keep up with those great videos!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey Molu, You are welcome and thank you for sharing your results using the flow profile for lighter roasts - so happy to help! Marc

[@cs512tr]

the amount of detail in these videos is amazing great viewing!!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi c, Thanks for the comment. We do like the details too!!! Marc

[@fabianbollig4390]

Really appreciate the amount of detail and passion that went into making your videos (rare to find in other Espresso video content). Keep up the great work! Greetings from Germany

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Fabian, Thanks for the kind comment! Marc

[@JaylewAF11]

I have a Lelit Bianca and have been trying out the flow control, but I've been having a hard time finding some good references on how adjustments at different stages affect the overall flavor profile. This is super helpful and much needed! Thank you so much!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Jonathan, You are welcome! Please do let me know how the profiles work out for you. I'd love to hear the details and sharing would be helpful for others! Marc

[@amprivat5913]

Absolut fantastic video. Ordered a flow control for my 500 right away.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi AMP, Thanks for the comment - glad you enjoyed! Marc

[@joetbn1]

Hi Mark, I just got a Pro 500 PID with flow control from you guys yesterday as an upgrade from my Pasquini Livia 90 that is at least 15 years old. Pulled a few shots yesterday at stock flow rate (1 1/4 turns) and so far it's much easier to be consistent than the Livia 90 was. Just starting to experiment with flow control today. My only problem is going to be not over-caffeinating myself! This is going to be fun, but I'm already bouncing off the walls haha. The steaming is way better than the Livia 90 too. Thanks!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey Joe, Happy to hear you're finding more consistency and better steaming with the Pro 500. Just like you I have to be careful! Here's a link to an article with the profile graphs and more flow control info: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines Enjoy your new machine and thanks for your patronage! Marc

[@robfromga2]

Man this is awesome. Flow control is awesome

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey Rob, It sure is - thanks for the comment! Marc

[@poomped53]

I just tried the 'brewed coffee' method. Wow! It was great. Thanks for the idea! Really cool what you can do with the flow control.

[@erickmangali]

thanks for keeping us entertained during stay at home, marc. started playing around with the profiles in the video. the fresh/light roast profile created an absolutely smooth and sweet espresso that i've never tasted before! is there any way you could post the graphs somewhere so we could print them out? and please do more flow profiling videos!

[@LesliesDemos]

Awesome video! Leading edge of espresso geekery!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Bob, Thanks for the comment! So much fun getting geeky! Marc

[@elmtube1]

Makes me really appreciate my manual lever machine

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi e, Thanks for the comment. I too appreciate a good manual lever shot! Marc

[@pingmong5896]

Great jobs. Please do more often with different flow profiles so we can try and learn from that.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Ping Mong Hi, Thanks for the comment! We will do more. Absolutely amazing what flow can do! Marc

[@carp7697]

Front to back great video. But my takeaway: coffee shots! I don't have a PID, but I'm definitely trying this!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Carp, Thanks for the comment! Do try the coffee shots. Marc

[@fahadara]

Wow!😍 Best video in the subject so far… thank you Mark🙏🏻

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey, f, Thanks a whole latte for the comment - glad you enjoyed! Marc

[@cbeenhackker]

Awesome profiling demonstration! Gives me such beter understanding of all the differences there are. Thank you guys so much for al these well explained tutorials!!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi CB, Thanks for the kind comment! Marc

[@ungeru]

Amazon Video, a pleasure to watch. Just ordered the device for my Synchronika and am excited to try out your recipes! Greetings from Germany.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Ulf, Thanks for the comment! Marc

[@jfmcrr]

Don't have a Flow Control? My 500 does, but I have yet to use it. I'm working with something that'll work w/ any E61, flow control or not; I'm using a bottomless dbl shot basket w/21 grams of espresso grind. I open the brew valve w/o activating the pump for 10 seconds to wet the grounds. Then I use the pump to charge the basket to 20 lbs and close the valve. Once the coffee starts to flow, I open the valve and complete the shot. It approximates using the flow control to achieve a simple given profile with minimal fuss. Loved what I achieved. It's markedly different from what I was doing and demonstrated to me the benefits of the flow control valve. Now I will be using the flow control from here on out.... Give it a spin and make your decision as to whether you want to make the move to using a method of flow control/the flow control valve.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi j, Thanks for sharing your technique and results! Marc

[@LuckyDragon289]

Just installed the FCD on my Synchronika. Pulled a shot of a medium-light roast natural Ethiopian/Colombian/Brazilian blend using a variation of profile #1 (1.5 mL/s for 20s, ramp up to 6 mL/s for 12s, ramp down for 6s). Absolutely zero bitterness, but acidity was a still bit too bright. For "full" brew flow, I might try going down to ~5 mL/s for a shorter period of time. I feel like Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith shouting, "Unlimited POWER!!!" now that I have this level of control. Can't wait to experiment more!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi LD, That's awesome power you have - It's the power of the FLOW! Thanks for sharing your experience using flow control. Having details like coffee type and ideas on modifications to the profile is most excellent! Marc

[@eds.2237]

Thanks Marc, this video is a solid place to start for using flow control - what a game changer this device is! Using an older HX machine & Atom 75 grinder, this setup w/ flow control offers crazy awesome results. So far, the sweet bump & lever profiles have done wonders to the Maromas Marmea coffee from WLL. Rock on!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Ed, Thanks for the feedback! Flow control is amazing - as we say going to the next level in espresso is all about the flow! Marc

[@amars812]

Great video! Would be interested if you've found new flow profiles over the years

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi a, thanks for the comment. Don't have anything I'd call new - it's mostly just tweaking these slightly.

[@Miss.Parker]

Give flow a go. Now that's a cool catch phrase.

[@adamspencer9280]

Hi, may be covered on your main site but could we get a PDF of your flow profile charts. Appreciate there are variables, but it would be a great place to start. Many thanks

[@mannyr8795]

Two quick thoughts. First, love how utterly complicated this is, I come from the bbq smoking world and yes, gadgets and quirks galore. Secondly, on that side camera with this haircut you looked exactly like Lou ferrigno in the hulk without the muscle or green paint but soot on 😂😂😂

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey manny, Thanks for the comments! I mean I've got some muscle! Marc

[@KOZ-k1p]

Just love this educational video!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Khaled, Thanks for the comment - glad you love it! Marc

[@GadgetsGearCoffee]

For the dark roast, are you grinding finer than if you did a more classic brew?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi GGC, Much depends on nthe particular coffee used and you r flavor preferences. In general I'm usually using a finer grind for profiles which start with a lower flow rate and coarser for ones that starter with higher rate.

[@Love_cinnamo_roll]

I only have a manual machine(Flair), but I'd like to test the profile you've created! I will try to extract coffee pleasantly, watching out for the water temperature to go down. THANK YOU!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Kang, Assume you have a Flair with the gauge - give it a go! Marc

[@Love_cinnamo_roll]

@@Wholelattelovepage Recently I've been drinking Nordic roasting Colombian and two bright Ethiopian blending. I always extracted espresso from 8 to 9bar. I thought the brighter the coffee, the stronger it should be extracted. But it was mostly sour like chewing whole lemon. But using multiple profiles after watching your videos, I can finally taste the delicious light espresso. I also enjoy home espresso machine and grinder reviews in addition to technical video. Thank you very much for the useful information!

[@channinghatcher8580]

Thank you for all the great videos. Which profile would you suggest for a very fresh dark roast ? Since fresh requires low then medium and dark requires high then low. Thank you again!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi ch, You are welcome for the videos. Good question! Doing a fresh dark roast is a rare (to honestly never) thing for me. I'd try it both ways and taste to see what you like best. My tendency is to hit a dark roast hard and then go low flow to minimize flavor of roast in the extraction. But a lot depends on the particular coffee. You might try a bump: Low flow to start to off gas freshness then hit it hard for a few seconds and then return to low flow

[@Line-vw5io]

Wauw!! Top Job thx

[@Wholelattelovepage]

You are welcome!

[@Nicjagger]

Awesome video!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Nico, Thanks a whole latte for your comment! Marc

[@chabaneouali1955]

Hello, I am looking at the dark roast / bean blends chart , is the 15 sec @1 1/4 applied regardless of the initial flow of the machine or it depends on it ? Many thanks . Lovethe video btw

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi co, Thanks for the comment and question. 1 1/4 turns is a good place to start. If flow is too fast at that setting grind a hair finer. If too slow, grind a bit coarser. Marc

[@LivingTheLifeRetired]

I know this is an old video but still great info. I’m trying flow control on my new Profitec Drive for the first time. Is there any detriment to the pump when restricting flow? Does it somehow wear the pump out faster in any way?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi LTLR, that's a good question! Restricting the flow is no problem. The rotary pump has a bypass which diverts excess water/pressure. Marc

[@tristanmccoppin5761]

Marc, I am trying your profiles and loving them. Do you have a solution for the following: my profitec pro 500 PID when I clean it with Kafiza the brew handle, becomes very stiff, and sometimes it gets stuck, even in between cleans. Should it be lubricated with food safe lubricant by any chance?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey TM, Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the profiles! How often are you backflushing with Cafiza? Overdoing it can remove the lubrication from internal group components. I'd limit backflushing with cleaning agent like Cafiza to once every 120-140 extractions. You can do plain water backflushes daily to weekly depending on machine use level. If you'd like to re-lubricate E61 internals check out our video on the full E61 rebuild/maintenance: kzbin.info/www/bejne/e32sqHdqZdmmqNU Marc

[@tristanmccoppin5761]

I have one of these machines coming. Can I turn off the flow control completely if I choose? Or does everything have to be operated with that little knob. ?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi TM, You can operate the machine as if the flow control does not exist. On Profitec and ECM machines open the flow valve 1.25 turns from the closed - no flow position to use the stock flow rate. For Bezzera machines stock flow rate is at 1 valve turn open. Here's a link to an article with graphs of flow rates at various valve positions for Profitec and ECM machines: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines. Marc

[@tristanmccoppin5761]

@@Wholelattelovepage Excellent and after 1.25 turns on the Profitech does it hit a hard stop?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

@@tristanmccoppin5761 No it does not

[@bobadams9106]

For making coffee instead of changing the grind size to medium at 14g as mentioned can o just leave my grind size the same as my usual doppio of 18g ? Would the differences be noticeable?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi bob, Not sure I fully understand your question. But up dosing with more coffee can work. In general, profiles which start with a lower than standard flow rate will benefit from a slightly finer grind size than what's used for a stock flow rate extraction. Conversely, profiles with a higher than stock flow rate may need a slightly coarser grind. You may be able to achieve the same thing by adjusting dose weight higher for low flow and lower for high flow starts. Marc

[@matthewtoeneboehn7784]

Thanks for the video! I think I’m going to love playing with flow control but my wife prefers more of on/off simplicity. What setting would you leave the flow at to approximate a standard shot?

[@jeffbetcher9034]

Really appreciate all of the WLL videos. I have been enjoying my ECM Classika with flow control for 8 months now and finally got around to calculating gm/sec rates. Recognizing you said all machines are different, is there an average for vibration vs rotary pump for comparison. My results (1/4 increments through full open) were 2.63, 3.4, 5.33, 5.43, 5.61, 5.7, 5.86, and 9.935. Seems pretty flat in the middle. Is this okay or is there a flow control valve adjustment I need to make? Thanks.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey Jeff, Glad to hear you are enjoying the videos. Here's an article with a graph of flow rates for vibration pump machines and more profile graphs and info: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines Your rates look perfect! Marc

[@layas8690]

Great Video Marc. Any reason why the fully open valve flow control is not equal to the machine stock flow since in both cases they are set to 9 bars. What’s the stock flow in g/s?. thank u

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi L, Thanks for the comment and question. Difference in flow is due to a much larger possible opening in the FCD mushroom as compared to stock mushroom. Approximate stock flow rates are 8g/s for vibration pump machines and 11g/s for rotary pump machines. Hope that helps! Marc

[@layas8690]

Whole Latte Love Thank you Marc

[@meredith18352]

Expecting delivery of my Synchronika with flow control today. Upgraded when my Breville dual boiler blew up over a week ago. It will be interesting to see how I go with my now slightly aged, high altitude single origin (Ethiopia) beans. They were proving tricky on the Breville so this might be a steep learning curve. I'm in Australia so usually make coffee at low humidity, does the effect extraction in any way? Thanks for posting and lets hope I can do justice to my machine (will need a new grinder but thought I might give my husband apoplexy if I bought both at once).

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Meredith, Congrats on your new machine! With flow control you'll get a lot more out of those beans. If they're relatively fresh using a longer low flow pre-infusion followed by medium flow after first drip really will tame the typical brightness and brings out the juiciness. Low humidity shouldn't affect your extractions so long as you are grinding fresh and storing your beans properly. It can affect grinding with more static in low humidity environments. Marc

[@sdv1001]

Hey Marc Did you install the new stiffer spring that came with the Flow Control Kit; or did you retain the stock spring (which, I understand, retains the automatic pre-infusion of the stock set-up). Can you please report on the benefits or otherwise of leaving in the stock spring. Thank you

[@paulandrews5184]

Hi Marc, I have an ECM Slim...... do I need to change the spring at the outlet spout on the group head? Not sure if this model has pre infusion. Thanks

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Paul, All E61 groups operate the same. I've used flow control on E61 with and without the spring change and have not found a big difference although YMMV depending on the types of profiles you are doing. Little to no difference if doing profiles which start with a long low flow pre-infusion using flow control which is probably the most common way it's used. Marc

[@paulandrews5184]

Perfecto Marc, thanks. All the best and stay safe

[@spencerstarr4131]

Hey Marc! Me again... I went big, going with the ECM Synchronica w/ FC and the E37SD (also splurged on the precision shower screens and baskets). This is an exponential increase in Espresso capability over my V3 Silvia (to which I added an Auber PID w/ "pre-infusion") and Rocky Doserless grinder. The learning curve is steep, but I'm getting there and having lots of fun. I do have a general (maybe even a "Captain Obvious") question for you re: flow control: In order to work with the flow profiles you've outlined in this video and the live streams, it's necessary to dial-in a "regular" shot following 20-30s extraction time w/ 2:1 ratio, correct? Then, after having a dialed-in baseline, one can begin to play with flow profiling?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Spencer, wow that’s a massive upgrade! Glad you are having fun with it. Yes, dial in normally and go with flow manipulation from there. After you can always work the grind a bit to fine tune. Best to you, be safe and enjoy your new capabilities! Marc

[@ItsTheShiki]

Is dialing in shots for flow control machines the same as non-flow control machines? I'm never sure if I should dial in my shot with the flow profile, or dial the shot in normally and then apply the flow profile to that dialed in shot.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi TPK, Thanks for the question. Best practice is to dial in without using the flow control. To get the stock flow rate on any Profitec or ECM machine open the flow control 1.25 turns from the closed/no flow postion - then dial in. After that extract using a profile without changing grind size. A tip... if using a profile which starts with a very low flow rate a slightly finer grind size after dialing in can help. If starting with high flow rate (especially on rotary pump machines) a slightly coarser grind. Marc

[@Sammiecheeks16]

Hey question if I have the pro 600 do I do a pre infusion b4 I do this

[@andrewstine8265]

What setting are you using on the sette grinder?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Andrew, Honestly do not remember. Even if I did, doesn't matter as a setting on my grinder will likely not give the same grind size as a setting on yours. Especially on a Sette as grind size changes as the grinder breaks in with use. Beyond that, Grind size will need to change with the coffee used and the dose weight. Best way to arrive at the proper grind size is to dial-in using the stock flow rate. Get stock rate at 1.25 turns open from no flow on the flow control. After that, when using flow control you'll likely find that you need to grind a bit finer if doing long low flow pre-infusions and a bit coarser if using higher flow rates at the start of extractions. If unfamiliar with dialing in grind size here's a video demonstrating how: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oIC8aHdmZ9Nnedk Hope that helps! Marc

[@phillydelphia83]

Hey guys love your videos as always. Question for you, with traditional shots we often dial in grind to get our ratios 1:2, 1:2.5 etc within a designated time (eg 28-30 secs). With this profiling I’m not entirely sure I understand what we are tracking against. Are we just going based on the time per your graphs as the variable or is it also based on the ratio/weight.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi PW, thanks for the comment and question. Depending on the profile used timing tends not to be relevant. For instance if you do a very long low flow to start profile you might not have 1st drip until 15 second after pump on. Fairly likely total time from pump on will be well over 30 seconds. Other profiles may be inside typical base level timing. Best approach is to use to use brew ratios with timing in the graphs as a starting point. Hope that helps! Marc

[@phillydelphia83]

@@Wholelattelovepage helpful as always. Appreciate all the effort responding Marc

[@Element9846]

Hello WLL, Do the flow control knobs on your E61 machines have hard stops to prevent over loosening or is it something an at home barista should pay close attention to as to not unscrew the knob too far while extracting? Thank you.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hello Phil! Thanks for the question. Yes there are hard stops you cannot go to far. That said, You can turn the valve and get a higher than stock flow rate - especially on rotary pump machines. Regardless of pump type you'll get a stock flow rate with the vlave turned ope 1.25 turns from closed. Here's an article with graphs of flow rates at various valve positions for bot vibreation and rotary pump machines: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines Hope that helps! Marc

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

Hey Marc, Great video, as always. I have been looking into your suggestion of the ECM Classika. What a great machine. I have been thinking that maybe I do not need a machine that is capable of milk frothing. However, I would like the E61 with flow control and a PID. What would you suggest? I believe I saw a unit that had the above features, and I believe it had an outside water tank. Idk how I feel about the outside tank. After taking the measurements for espresso machine and possible grinders, there would not be any room on the area where my coffee stuff is. I have my green coffee containers, roasted coffee container and various brew methods. The outside water tank would just not work unless I put it or the grinder on the bottom shelf, and that would be silly. Thank you so much for your help. This is a big decision for me and will be a huge accomplishment. I spent a long time in the hospital and am returning back to work. Saving a bit of money and not letting my ADHD mind get distracted feels so good. You can see why I am so detailed in this purchase. Thank you again. I truly appreciate you. KG

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey KG, I replied in another comment. Fairly certain the Puristika water source will not function properly if placed below the level of the machine. Pump will not be able to provide the suction to pull water up. Marc

[@andrewstine8265]

Flow profile to improve decaf beans? Usually pretty fresh as I home roast them, so typically have beans anywhere from 2-10 days from roast, however the decaf just never gets very good it seems. Using a profitec pro 600.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Andrew, It's rare for me to do decaf. But, when I have done decaf I've had decent results using a lever style profile with a high flow rate and slightly finer grind. For very fresh from roast coffee I'd start with a low flow rate pre-infusion to allow CO2 to off-gas and reduce brightness - especially if it's a medium or lighter roast. After that, crank open to a high flow rate - ~2 turns open, then taper off the flow rate as shot progresses. Hope that helps! Marc

[@akquicksilver]

Great video! I'm intrigued. Do you have the flow control conversion kits in stock again?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi JB, Thanks for the comment and question. At this point we do not have upgrade kits in stock. I had hoped to have dates for new stock but the virus happened. The upgrades ship from Italy so given what's happening we are in holding pattern at the moment. Marc

[@eltonnoway7864]

Hmmm... 5 months later and still no kits in stock. Nor do any of the other retailers who were offering "their own version" of these kits have any in stock. Makes you question if the rush of flow control copycats failed to recognized the design success Lelit incorporated into their Bianca. Lelit actually redesigned and tweaked the internals of their E61 group rather than simply adding a valve and manometer. Early adopters of these flow control kits quickly discovered simply adding a control valve and a manometer to a standard E61 did not result in the same flow control profiling the Bianca was being praised for. It was then discovered Biancas design uses the E61 needle valve control the flow versus a conventional E61 that replies on internal spring pressure in the group. It turns out Lelit makes the preinfusion spring much stiffer in the Bianca because when the control valve is all the way to the right it is more restricted than the conventional group jet. Eventually early adopters of these flow control "kits" discovered they had to install a heavier spring in order to emulate the Bianca . The stiffer spring and smaller opening work "together"allowing the control valve (i.e. paddle) restrict the flow. I'm guessing once ECM works out the redesign details they'll come out with a new version of this kit... with the components actually designed around the concept of flow control.

[@arnienz1962]

What flow rate should we be aiming for to mimick a non modified machine? There will be times when I don’t want to use flow control

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi a, Thanks for the question. On ECM and Profitec machines equipped with flow control open the valve 1.25 turns from the closed/no flow position to get the stock flow rate. For other machines, it will be different. On Bezzera machines it's about 1 full turn open for stock flow rate. Marc

[@topwanker]

What is the reason for calculating the flow rate of the machine? The numbers don't correlate to the amount of coffee out when the water sees the resistance of the coffee in the basket. Or did I miss a part of it?

[@phillipphan1394]

Great video thank you. please can you do your flow table also as a pressure (bar) at puck table? thanks!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Phillip, Thanks for the comment! While pressure and flow are related they are not the same. Flow makes no distinction with regards to grind size while grind size does affect pressure. That said, you might use a graph of flow rates as a map for pressures. Marc

[@rweakley]

Can a flow control be added to any E61 group? I.e. Crem One machines?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi r, We've tested FC devices on E61 groups on a wide range of machines and it works on all. Marc

[@2s_company_]

This is a very good video. However, the number of turns on the Y Axis will not correspond to everyone's espresso machines. What will match, is the flow rate calculated near the start of the video. If the Y-axis of the flow profiles was replaced with flow rate, this would be much better. Anyway, thank you for sharing this. I still consider this an amazing contribution.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Awinash, Thanks for the comment! Marc

[@mileselou]

Hi and thank you for this great video! How do you use the grinder with flow control? Do you adjust it using a regular flow and only then tweak flow control?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Miles, Thanks for your comment and a great question! My typical process is to dial in using normal flow. On my Pro 700 that's with the valve open about 1 1/4 turns. After that I may make grind adjustments depending on the type of profile, coffee used, etc. For instance in the first profile used in this video I adjusted the grind a bit finer from normal dial in. A lot depends on the coffee used and one's flavor preferences. Find a profile you like then test how grind size adjustment changes flavor. Marc

[@TeddyDeanShorts]

Hi Mark. Where can I find these (and more) profiles? Preferably in g/second? I've done the measurement on my machine that you recommended and can't find where to apply the results.

[@PeterGillmakeuplover]

Hi Marc for an up coming video if you've not already done could you please do a video on cleaning brew groups for both semi automatic and super automatic machines. Thanks :)

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi PG, Thanks for the request. I have this for E61 semi-auto groups: How To Clean E61 Brew Group Mushroom, Jet and Top Valve: kzbin.info/www/bejne/anmYaISJerJ3ntU For super autos it depends on manufacturer. If group is removable it's a weekly rinse with room temp tap water being careful not to remove lubricant on moving parts - so don't scrub those areas. In machines with no removable groups like most Jura machines it's a cleaning tablet inserted into the bypass doser and run the automatic cleaning cycle. Jura machines will alert user when it's time to clean. For Gaggia removable groups I have this video on deep cleaning: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnjQl6F9g8R9h6M Hope that helps! Marc

[@PeterGillmakeuplover]

@@Wholelattelovepage ok thanks Marc

[@KOZ-k1p]

I imagine flow control can be used to adjust when switching to single shot vs double shot. Single shots also come out faster so we can reduce flow?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi KZ, You can use flow to compensate for grind that's not quite right. If you have well paired single and double baskets you may not need a lot of grind size adjustment. Of course the amount of coffee used in each plays a roll. Marc

[@hn9382]

The drip coffee style makes me really consider flow profiling 😅

[@GlenEdwards]

This was great! I always thought it was more based on the pressure profile, reading the manometer, as that’s what I’ve seen others doing! This was very informative to see how to measure the flow rate and then go by quarter turns without paying attention to the manometer. I wonder what you’re take is on the pressure profiling compared to flow profiling?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey Glen, Thanks for the comment and question! My take: Making exceptional espresso is the art and science of controlling variables. There's bean type, roast level and age... Dose weight, grind size/quality, brew temp, filter basket, flow rate, brew pressure and technique items like grind distribution and compression (tamping). That's a lot of variables! Reducing the number of variables or using tools and/or techniques to reduce variance increases consistency. Brew pressure and flow rate are related. If I pull a number of shots using the same grind size using different brew pressures the flow rate through the grind will change. So contact time of brew water with the coffee changes. If I change my grind size a bit and I use the same brew pressure contact time of brew water with the coffee changes. If I change grind size and control the flow I can keep brew water contact time the same even though grind has changed. In my experience and in research test results there is little difference in standard extraction quality (as measured by TDS) in a range of ~6-10bar of brew pressure but a big difference in quality with changes in flow rate. By focusing less on brew pressure and more on flow one reduces the number of variables. Flow rate has more impact on extraction quality than brew pressure. Marc

[@jsmithCRJ700]

Any chance you could have a PDF of the profile charts?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Jason, Thanks for the question. I'm working with our web team to make them available via a blog here: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/blogs Stay tuned/check back in a few days. Marc

[@jsmithCRJ700]

Whole Latte Love Thanks! Ordered the Jack Leveler the other day. Can not wait to try it out!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Awesome!I used it for all the shots in this video. A tip with the leveler. It's a tight fit in some stock filter baskets. Not an issue so long as you clean any grinds from around the leveler head in between uses. I find it's less of an issue with precision baskets from IMS/Baristapro. Marc

[@scottyjackson6665]

Will flow control reduce the lifespan of the pump?

[@JohnDennery]

A whole new world of experiments! This was very cool and definitely has me excited to pick up a flow control device at some point. I did have two questions: for the 14g "coffee shot" did you still use a standard double size filter basket? I was wondering if the coffee needs more room to expand when brewing so long like that. Also, did you use the same grind setting for each of these shots or would you change it depending on how long/how much pressure you plan to use? Obviously that variable didn't need to be included in this video focused on flow control, but I am curious if grind size took some fine-tuning as well for these different methods. Thanks for sharing these tips for playing with different flow profiles!

[@jaysonmarinay1552]

Hi marc.. Is it fine to use flow control device on programmed volumetric button?? Or its just work well on manual only?? I would like to control the flow of my machine.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi JM, Appreciate your patience as I somehow overlooked your comment :( Anyway, if it's truly a volumetric with a flow meter measuring water output or if using manual function of volumetric machine it should work fine in E61 group. Be aware many "volumetric" dosing machines actually use timing for shots and not brew water volume. Marc

[@jaysonmarinay1552]

@@Wholelattelovepage thankyou so much.. really appreciated..

[@khalid0790]

This is what I was waiting for, I wish if included a slayer style shot profile :-( not sure if you can do that one with the flow profile.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi C&b, That style most closely resembles the first profile for fresh and lighter roasts. A very low flow for 15 seconds and then increase flow for duration of the extraction. Marc

[@petterenglund3736]

Hey! Thanks for the video! I have a question: When talking about brew time of x seconds, is that from the point that the pump is TURNED ON, or from the point at which the first drop of coffee HITS THE BOTTOM of a cup? What about pre-infusion? For example: the pump runs for 4 seconds followed by a pause for 5 seconds. Does the total brew time include the pre-infusion OR not? Thanks!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Petter, Thanks for the question. Personally I use first drip if/when using timing. As seen in this video first drip with a long low flow pre-infusion might not happen for 15 seconds. I do not include that in shot timing. But when doing higher-end extractions I don't pay much attention on time and focus on the resulting flavor. For me timing is the most basic method of dialing in and I only pay attention to it when working with a new coffee under standard brewing conditions. In those situations I still use first drip and tend to the lower end of the 20-30 range when working with a rotary pump machine and the higher end when using a machine with vibration pump as they take longer to build up flow and pressure. Marc

[@alexlazaridisf.7276]

Does the ECM Classika come with a stock number of seconds of pre-infusion? And does the flow control at, say 1 or 2 bars, allow you to extend it? Thanks again for the vid. I'm binging on them.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Alex, You are welcome for the video and thank you for the question. The stock Classika without flow control does standard E61 preinfusion which is better considered to be pre-wetting as there's a limited amount of brew water put on the coffee cake and no pressure. With flow control on the Classika you can extend a true pre-infusion with low flow/pressure for as long as you like. That's exactly what I do when extracting very fresh from roast specialty coffees. A pre-infusion at 1-2 bar for 15 seconds to first drip. From there increase to a gentle flow that's below stock flow rate to finish at ~1:2 brew ratio. This profile is amazingly good at reducing brightness in very fresh from roast coffees. Marc

[@magnusdanielsen8688]

Cool video :D

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi MD, Glad you liked it and thanks for the comment! Marc

[@georgiosathanasopoulos1192]

Happy New Year from Athens Greece!!! Does the flow control kit fits good to my ECM Technica V Profi?

[@ShervinLeMan]

YES...first 3 people I asked said no, the next two said yes...my flow control kit should arrive tomorrow...Good Luck my Greek friend....Shervin.

[@georgiosathanasopoulos1192]

@@ShervinLeMan Thank you my friend. Please when you install the kit and practise with it some days, send me if worth the money... 😉

[@dvmisk]

Hi Marc - marvellous videos. When E61 machine is idling I think the flow control should be kept open at 1 1/2 turn to allow water from circulating inside E61 group. Is my assumption correct?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Davor, Thanks for the kind comment and question. I can see why one might think so but it is not the case. The thermosiphon continues to flow regardless of the position of the flow control valve. Valve (be it stock or FC) within the mushroom has no affect on thermosiphon flow rate. Marc

[@Entertainment-wn9de]

Hi , any recommendation for light duty commercial espresso grinder ? What should we look for in a grinder before purchasing it ? Thanks

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi E, Thanks for the question. For light duty have a look at the Ceado E37J: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/espresso-grinders/products/ceado-e37-j-electronic-coffee-grinder A step up from that is Ceado's E37S: www.wholelattelove.com/products/ceado-e37-s-electronic-coffee-grinder-in-black Things to look for: programmable timing with consistent dose to dose weights, all metal construction, precise grind size adjustment. 64mm burrs or larger. Larger burrs grind faster and produce a more consistent grind particle size. The J has 64mm, E37S has 83mm burrs. In commercial setting you want reliability as well both of these are rock solid. Hope that helps! Marc

[@Entertainment-wn9de]

Thank you for your reply , I have another question is cafello tutto v2 all in one coffee machine good enough for a light duty cafe that serves less then 80 cups a day ? Thanks again

[@3babech790]

I love having a machine like this❤❤

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi LH, Thanks for the comment. How are you using it on your machine? Marc

[@coffeeauthority]

Great video Marc. Have you seen the Decent De 1 machine yet and how they are doing flow control? Any plans to carry this new brand in the future?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi CA, Thanks for the comment. I have seen it. As far as I know they only sell direct. Marc

[@TomReinerDE]

Mark, that is super interesting. Can I fit the flow control mechanism to other E61-type machines, e.g. Rocket Appartamento?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Tom, Thanks for the comment and question. We have tested the FCD in a variety of machines with E61 grouops including the Appartamento and it works. Marc

[@a.b.5757]

Hey Mark, what about using the additional manometer? In your video you didn't use it at all...

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi A. B., Thanks for the question. Although I did not verbally reference the E61 mounted gauge I did keep an eye on it. For this video I was far more concerned with basing extractions on flow rate rather than the pressure in the group. That said, having the group gauge allows one to base an extraction on a pressure profile rather than a flow profile if desired. Marc

[@mgarwatoski]

I’m really close to upgrading to a Profitec 600 with FC. A friend told me about the Crem One that’s supposed to be out soon in the US and according to Welbilt WLL is the authorized retailer. Got any info on this in terms of release date ETA or when you’ll be making content on the double boiler model with PID and flow control?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Mark, Wow, you have friends with knowledge! We have been involved with Crem's new machines and have a bunch of preproduction models in-house at the moment for final refinement recommendations. That's been slowed down to a stop with current events :( So no release date at this point. We were close a month ago then this happened. Marc

[@mgarwatoski]

Whole Latte Love I would read between the lines here that it’s u likely to be available this year if you still are planning to send refinement recommendations that would lead to changes to the final production units. I’ve been involved with product beta testing myself and know it’s a long process. I’d like to see the top end model incorporate level controls for brew water and steam 😉

[@teresajacobs1302]

Mark, do each of these flow profiles start with pre-infusion? If so, how much time on and time off do you use for pre-infusion?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Teresa, Not all of the profiles start with pre-infusion. Kinda depends on what one considers pre-infusion. Some consider the release of water from pre-brew chamber of E61 groups to be pre-infusion. I do not IMO that's just pre-wetting as there is no real pressure or flow involved. The profiles which start with a very low flow like those for lighter fresher roasts do use a long low flow pre-infusion. Hope that helps! Marc

[@candilite]

mark 👏

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi AS, Thanks for the applause! Marc

[@anotherguycalledsmith]

Another stupid question… Is there any benefit from having your ”zero point“ of the valve at _3 o'clock_ ? Did you choose so because of the knob? Wouldn't it be more intuitive to have this starting position at _12 o'clock​_ ??? Just asking… ;-)

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi agcs, you can loosen the knob, pull up the sleeve and reposition as you like so starting no flow position can be wherever you like! Just be sure to leave a little space - about a credit cards worth between bottom of sleeve and top of mushroom so you are able to fully close to no flow. Marc

[@anotherguycalledsmith]

Hi, Marc… - thanks a lot, I really and _still_ love your excellent videos ;-) Yes, I know. But this kind of lever of my cheaper than ECM-solution is even worse than ECM's own strange sphere-knob. I will replace it with a nice _black durable plastic_ or even _stainless steel_ star-knob which will sit perfectly on top of the FCV. Then, a 12 o'clock _zero-point_ position of the valve is better possible than a solution with too long levers or ones that need to be flipped while turning them - leading to _3 or 9 o'clock_ positions that I find counter-intuitive ;-)

[@philgoogle1535]

Hi Marc, I enjoyed this video/tutorial. You've made me realise that the FCD at full open delivers a different flow rate to the PF than the stock OEM mushroom valve. How many turns do you think the FCD needs to flow the same as stock on a Synchronika using the internal water tank?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Phil, Thanks for the comment and question. On my Pro 700 (identical internals to the Synchronika) It's 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 turns for flow similar to stock mushroom. Marc

[@philgoogle1535]

Thanks Marc. I tried your dark roast 15 second 1 1/2 turn hold then ramp down on a favourite dark roast blend. I think it made an improvement tuning out some of the bitterness (11 days old). Thanks for your good work. I'm enjoying the experience.

[@camilocalderon4780]

Hi Mark. I have a question about dialing in the grinder for flow profiling machines. Should I dial in for a 25 - 30s shot at a stock flow (lets say 10 g/s which is what average machines use to bring) and then start playing with profiles (which are gonna change my timing, I understand that)? Is that the process? Or should I dial with different g/s until I find a good point of taste and then star playing with profiles? Thanks for your reply.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi CC, Thanks for sharing that info!

[@nusstu]

Hi, was there any pre-infusion set on the machine?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey EE, Thanks for the question. Flow control and modifying flow rates replaces pre-infusion. Great example is the profile used for fresh from roast specialty coffee. Starts with about 15 seconds of very low flow rate building to about 2 bar before first drip starts. From there ramp up to a medium flow to finish the extraction. Does wonders to tame the brightness in very fresh lighter roasted high altitude coffees. Flow control is far more flexible and controllable than typical E61 pre-infusion. Marc

[@nusstu]

@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks, that made a lot of sense. I'll turn off the pre-infusion on my Bianca then. I also can't calibrate this the way you do with the ECM as the Bianca has only a 200 degrees movement. I can only reach a max flow rate of around 8-9 g/s and that's already setting the min flow rate at 2.5g/s. Is there any difference if I can't reach the flow rate at the higher end when I'm trying to mimick lever profiling for example?

[@mjmjersey]

Mark I love my Pro 700 with flow control but I can't get my Brew temperature right because the espresso is coming out warm it's not hot enough it's really bothering me

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey michael, What's you brew temperature set to? 200F is midpoint of espresso brew temperature range and a good place to start for medium roast coffee. Make sure your Pro 700 is fully warmed up prior to use. Usual warm-up for E61 dual boiler machines is ~25 minutes. PID display will indicate it's up to temp much sooner but it takes additional time for the E61 group to warmup. Keep PF loosely mounted in group when not in use so it warms as well. Preheat cups on cup warming surface and/or preheat with hot water from the machine. Typical espresso temps out of the spouts is ~190F. It quickly cools by 10F in cup and even more if going into a thick cold cup. Hope that helps! Marc

[@stuipooey1]

Hi Mark, another great video on flow control. I have found that when doing longer preinfusions I have to grind a lot finer. If you then try the same grind with a normal flow rate it will just about choke out. Do you find the same. So far I haven't found flow control (ECM Synkronika) as good as I had hoped but with your videos I am gaining more understanding of what this can bring and I will try some of these for sure. Thanks

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Stuart, Thanks for the comment and sharing your experience. I do find I need to grind a little finer in general when using longer pre-infusions. But there is some variability depending on coffee type. I have not experienced choking out when going to a normal flow rate. In this video I used the same grind size for all the extractions except for the first one with the fresh from roast coffee. Marc

[@stuipooey1]

@@Wholelattelovepage thanks Mark, really appreciate your feedback, I need to experiment with other coffees, I am a creature of habit when it comes to beans.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Stuart G Hi Stuart you are welcome please report back with what you find working with some different coffees I would really like to hear about it and I’m sure other folks would as well best wishes

[@420gramas7]

Can you tell me when the coffee brew time counting starts to reach 25-30 sec? Is it when i press start button on the machine or the first drop in the cup?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi RG, Thanks for the question. It's important to understand that timing is the most basic method of appraising an extraction. It's useful when dialing in grind on standard machine. When one is using flow control with extra long low flow pre-infusions or other flow rate modifications timing to "golden rule" of 20-30 seconds is rarely useful. I use many machine types with different pumps and flow rates. Timing is helpful when comparing extractions on a single machine with no flow modification. Marc

[@squibcakes74]

Dark roast or nothing for me! Does flow control work with non rotary, if so will a kit be available for the ecm slim? Cheers take care!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi sc74, Yes, flow control does work with vibration pump! A kit will be available. Out of stock at the moment due to high demand and we get them from Italy so current events are causing delays. You can check back at this link for availability of the ECM flow control upgrade kit for E61 group machines: www.wholelattelove.com/products/ecm-e61-flow-control-device Marc

[@squibcakes74]

Whole Latte Love Woo Hoo!

[@luatle3077]

I wonder that could I add this flow control to my Rocket appartamento?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi LL, Yes, we have tested flow control device in a variety of machines with E61 group like the Appartamento and it works. Marc

[@luatle3077]

@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks, could I use ECM's Flow control kit for Rocket?

[@JasonAlexzander1q47]

Without warranty, does that make the espresso machines that you sell less expensive? I bought my ecm syncronika with flow control for under $2000

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi James, That's an unbelievably crazy price. We have a 3 year warranty on the Synchronika. Marc

[@dato007]

From the flow app, it doesn’t look like anything you’re doing is changing the flow rate. As you rotate the knob, the flow rate looked the same across most of the pulls. ??

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey d, thanks for the comment. Flow rate into the cup and potential rate onto and thru the puck are two different things. For instance as the puck erodes during an extraction it presents less resistance to brew water. If flow rate onto the puck stays the same as puck erodes flow rate into cup would increase. Marc

[@dato007]

@@Wholelattelovepage thx!

[@randyhull6307]

What would be the typical expected flow rate from a non flow control e61 on an ECM?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Randy, Thanks for the question. Typical flow rates for E61 groups are ~8g/s for vibration pump and 11g/s for rotary pump machines. Marc

[@randyhull6307]

Whole Latte Love Hi Marc, thank you for the reply. I will be checking my Synchronika’s flow rate today!

[@christian365563]

Do you happen to know the standard flow of an Izzo Alex Duetto IV+ ?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi CG, I have not measured rate on that machine. But, typical vibration pump does ~8g/s, rotary pumps ~11g/s. Really easy to measure your actual if you have a scale or measuring cup. Run 20 seconds and weigh output in grams or measure volume in ml then divide by 20. Here's an article with more info plus 5 profile graphs: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines Marc

[@christian365563]

@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks Marc! I was asking as I am getting that machine in with flow control pre-installed so I won't have a way of testing the stock flow. Is there an ideal flow rate for making good shots when not flow profiling? I read somewhere that 7-9 g/s (200-280 g per 30 seconds) is an ideal rate. In your experience, would you say that is accurate or is 11 g/s more ideal?

[@charlesnetzler2262]

Can this be applied to the mina?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Charles, Funny you should ask... I have worked with profiles on the Dalla Corte Mina on my own and with their coffee pros including Danilo Lodi and Fabrizio Sencion. The first 2 profiles in this video are based on theory from their work adapted to use with flow control on E61 group machines. Of course with the Mina flow is programmable in 5 steps and repeatable. Marc

[@charlesnetzler2262]

@@Wholelattelovepage Hi Marc, I am very new to flow profiling and really have no idea what I am doing with the Mina besides trial and error, hope to see more videos on flow profiles on the Mina or profiling in general :)