Why are Farming Games called Stardew Valley "Ripoffs"?

[@Stephoulinou-2]

Harvest moon is the OG farming game and ConcernedApe never hide the fact that he got inspired by harvest moon and Minecraft

[@SirenPandaSabo]

And Terraria for the artstyle.

[@speedyllama8380]

That's what I was thinking too. Harvest Moon was the first of it's kind, and if Harvest Moon didn't exist then neither would Stardew. ConcernedApe has openly said that when he started making Stardew it was inspired by Harvest Moon.

[@speedyllama8380]

I've been playing "farming games" or "neighbor-vania" or whatever.... Since Harvest Moon 64... I absolutely loved it and played it over and over when I was a kid.

[@cmlemmus494]

Certainly, but the distinction being made here is that while CA may have been inspired by Harvest Moon, that does not mean that the people playing and making the post-SDV farming games have ever player Harvest Moon. Similarly, George Lucas was heavily inspired by John Ford, both in how he film landscapes and in story elements, but not many Star Wars fans have seen The Searchers (1956) or She Wore a Yellow Ribbon (1949).

[@speedyllama8380]

@@cmlemmus494 If they are older than 30 they definitely played Harvest Moon... Not to even mention that they are still making Harvest Moon games, but they're under their new name, "Story of Seasons"... So, it's possible that even under-30 people have played Story of Seasons and it was a huge part of their childhood as well. I won't deny that Stardew proved that "farming games" could be profitable, but harvest Moon and Story of Seasons weren't nothing... It's a huge franchise.

[@NinjaWaluigi]

I’ll finish the video, but this conversation just feels like a rehash or rediscovery of older conversations. We used to call every shooter “Doom clones” and we used to call every MOBA “Dota Clones” before we developed the names and nuances for the genre. I think people just forget that genres are forged by reinterpretations and remixes of what came before it. All genres have the prototype, the archetype, and then the stereotype, and that’s a sign of good health.

[@salmence100]

That did come to mind, the genres are just so different that the same conversation needs to be had with a different audience

[@Bloodglas]

I think it's also worth mentioning that clone didn't used to be an insult. nowadays I'll see someone call something a stardew clone and people act like it was called a rip-off. clone was just an easy way to say what a game plays like.

[@NinjaWaluigi]

@@salmence100 yeah that’s totally fair, and I think this video does do a good service for this community to advance the conversation beyond “this game copied that game therefore its lesser.” I was just reflecting on my own time on the internet and having flashbacks to the days of yore lmao

[@lexiyah643]

Doom is just Doom idc about it.

[@Red-mg4ro]

Rougelike, Rougelite, Metroidvania, Soulslike, they're all pretty arbitrary in terms of what conditions needs to be met to be "close enough" to be considered as part of a genre. Genre definers, genre originators, genre progenitors, and genre popularifiers(?), can all be separate instances. STV was, AFAIK, the one that made the Farming Game popular. But the aspects that define farming games is more of an innate thing that all farming games would have regardless. In terms of other traits of a game that can be similar to SDV, it can often cause them to fall under a "SDV, but ______" category. The sort of "why would I place this over SDV?" category. Because that "but _____" needs to be something added, or something removed, but something different. Which brings us to the snag SDV / farming games in particular: mods. SDV is, in many ways, very simple. So if you play SDV and think "but what if ______?", then there's probably a mod for that. Not to say that's all encompassing for the thought process behind these games.

[@jaffidaguy9991]

I feel that Fields of Mistria is more of a love letter to farming games such as Harvest Moon and Stardew Valley than a rip off. Its 80s anime aesthetic and different mechanics (such as bug hunting, archaeology and levelling up system), along with a really well designed dialogue system and NPC functions are so unique in its own way and really make the game feel special.

[@lexiyah643]

Omg I like that game Fields of Mistera

[@elizabethdalton3650]

Me too! I agree with you @jaffiaguy9991

[@demonhellkittycat]

Somehow i was never drawn into SDV (i only have 6hrs in or so, played with my partner) but with FOM i was instantly hooked! I don’t know if it’s the dragon lord lore, how each chara has seasonal clothing, or the magic… all that for an early access game! I can’t wait for full release!!

[@livinginthestarway2806]

Yes! I completely agree. I think someone who loves farming sims can get the love from the devs.

[@EraofEra]

@@demonhellkittycat This makes me really want to buy Fields of Mistria. I already thought it looked good, but your description here reminds me of the Rune Factory series (which was one of my favourites growing up)

[@LeeraChan]

Easy explanation for why it took so long for something like Stardew Valley to appear after basically only Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons and Rune Factory existing: the genre was so extremely niche that no one else saw profit in it. We had to wait for the kids who love the old HM games to grow up and get into game development. Then Stardew released and showed that people not only still enjoy farming games but can actually make them all on their own AND make lots of money. And boom, you suddenly have a thriving niche. Most of the games that release now are still very much inspired by Harvest Moon but take modern ideas from Stardew.

[@itsmechara0426]

Bro Fields of Mistria is to Stardew what Stardew is to Harvest Moon. I love both games!

[@anisa2273]

agreed! you can tell it's a love letter to Stardew like Stardew was to Harvest Moon and that's beatiful!

[@ZenHorakti]

Here is the thing. Yes you can said about Harvest moon is the inspiration for SDV But, no Harvest moon sold 30 Million copies. Even with all their series combine.

[@whirlpooltunes]

100% agree

[@RukoS-xy6jo]

Not that having more sale is the point. I also started love playing farming sims because of HM and now I play SDV like an addiction. Gotta start humble.

[@mertensiam3384]

​@@ZenHorakti okay but sales arent what we're talking sbout here, its clear that FoM was made with love, you can see just how much they tried to polish everything and how neatly fit together everything feels so far even as an early access game. Stardew is a love letter to harvest moon and fields of mistria feels like a love letter to stardew valley. Stardew's still gonns be the image of farming sims, probably for years upong years

[@embyrr922]

I tend to call the genre "new in town" games, because to me, more important than and other single mechanic is the fact that you're building up from nothing in terms of skills and relationships. I also think the genre relies very heavily on vibes. More than any other kind of game, I'm inclined to write off new in town titles on art style alone. The story and mechanics aren't likely to win me over if I don't fundamentally enjoy just being in the world.

[@arielle5752]

*Love* this specific classification of genre, definitely adding it to my vocabulary

[@SpiritofLibegon]

Yes, that's how "my time at Portia" can have such strong stardew feel without being a farming game.

[@regsun7947]

At least I'm not the only one who totally discounts games because of graphics. By the time 3D graphics came around I'd had more than enough pixels poking me in the eyes and to be fair a pixel-graphic game on a TV back then looked a lot better than it does on a computer. The guy who made Stardew Valley deserves all the props and I have played it but mainly because at the time it was the ONLY game like it (Harvest Moon: Back to Nature was my first HM game). I still look at SV and shudder at the graphics.

[@SpiritofLibegon]

@regsun7947 "gameplay matters more than graphics" is mostly an answer at the over focus on graphics from AAA title. It makes total sense to judge by looks on games since it does affect your experience. That being said, do note that better looks on old games are often the result of CRT TV memories. CRT wasn't simply lower definition than modern screen, it deformed the image in a particular way. A lot of games, especially retro ones, just look better on CRT. I still play my wii games on a CRT. It's easy to get one online for cheap btw, and you can totally plug it to a pc to play on it too.

[@regsun7947]

@@SpiritofLibegon That's what my sprog says too but I think this can be chalked up to one of my Aspy issues. Fortunately for all of us there are enough games to suit many tastes and play-styles. :D

[@loki555]

Stardew revitalized the farming Sim genre. It's not different than any other hit bringing a genre back into focus

[@MrBosor]

spot on!!

[@igorthelight]

Some people say that "Fields of Mistria" is the next real step. Can't confirm that myself because I didn't played it yet

[@zealoustherealous]

Pixels farming games > 3d farming games.

[@cmlemmus494]

@@igorthelight It's great that they bring something new, but that's not the same as inspiring change within a genre. Monster Harvest had a fun little twist on SDV, but that didn't lead to a bunch of other games copying that twist (although to be fair the game also had issues). Sun Haven is a lot of fun and is more than just an SDV-clone, but again it's not being copied much in the farming/townvania space. If the things introduced by Fields of Mystria get copied by a bunch of other games, then "some people" will be right, but we won't know until after it has been in full release for a few years. Right now it's just another game inspired by SDV with a few tweaks.

[@igorthelight]

@@cmlemmus494 Fair points!

[@Craxin01]

I remember when Stardew Valley first came out. They were calling it a Harvest Moon ripoff. Now people don't even remember Harvest Moon and compare the same games in the genre as Stardew Valley ripoff.

[@salmence100]

Someday we may repeat that cycle lol

[@mahbeans]

Perhaps someone said this already, but Dreamland Village Life didn't take kickstarter money and run. They cancelled the project (during the funding period) and nobody got charged, there was no money lost.

[@ryninja5788]

I don’t count what animal crossing added to new horizons as something stardew valley inspired. I see the crops being added as an extension to the crafting system new to this series they implemented into this game. They wanted to get more things to craft but in new ways so it didn’t seem the same as other ways already in the game. And besides, the crops themselves are kind of an extension of how trees and flowers work in AC already, which have been there since the beginning decades ago.

[@kateb6699]

@ryninja5788 Yeah I thought that take was a stretch lmao. Fans of AC had wanted food items to display for a long time, and the harvesting/cooking system just felt like a fun way to implement that with the already-existing crafting system.

[@MrTaekon]

And an entire parade of farming games on N. Direct (don't sue me) the very next year is a coincidence.

[@thistle_ish]

i don't think it was stardew valley inspired at all, but there was a wave of "cozy farming" hype going on at the time, and it capitalized off of it. i love the cooking in acnh--the food models are well designed and it's really fun!! but still, you can't deny that it wasn't necessarily unexpected

[@purplecosmonaut]

Oh it absolutely was.

[@filegnaru]

But it definitely is a neighborvania. With New Horizons having a heavy focus on crafting and decorating, with the farming and cooking being a thing to support both crafting and decorating instead of being a main focus of the game.

[@MarthChan]

As a kid, I always wanted more games like my beloved Harvest Moons. Now that Stardew Valley has expanded the genre, I now have my pick of games that bring me joy. I do definitely think that some of them were or are money grabs, especially the "New" Harvest Moons, but I am seeing more effort being put into those so maybe there is hope. But it makes me happy that if I want to chill, I can pick up Fields of Mistria, if I want some fantasy, I default to Sun Haven, if I want some monster taming, I go to Re:Legend and when I want to actually have the opportunity to play as my farmer's child, Echoes of Plum Grove has me covered. And all four of these have turn into comfort games for me right alongside Stardew and my old Harvest Moons. These games bring me joy and I am so happy to see the genre thriving!

[@sageash7546]

Gonna go check out Echoes of Plum's Grove, thank you

[@MarthChan]

@@sageash7546 If you do, I hope you enjoy! It's a really nice mix of a few fun and quirky elements and I really enjoy it!

[@karlyl7616]

Totally with you on this! Excellently put. I am so happy to enjoy a bounty of games in a genre I've loved since I was a Harvest Moon obsessed kid. Sure, there are cash grabs thrown in there too, but so many of these games are really fun.

[@TorIverWilhelmsen]

You could also look into _Roots of Pacha_ for some more down-to-Earth stone age farming.

[@MarthChan]

@@TorIverWilhelmsen Absolutely! My friend swears by Roots of Pacha! It's 100% on my radar to try out!

[@kit6024]

tbh I think modern copyright law has done terrible things to the way we perceive ideas and ownership of those ideas. Think of how we related to fairytales 200 years ago. No-one was going to call you a rip-off hack for telling your own version of a fairy story with your own embellishments to suit how you liked it. No-one claimed they told a fairytale first. In practice, that's not how ideas work. Originally, copyright laws were supposed to maintain that idea, while giving creators enough time to profit fairly from their work before it was released to the public domain. Now, ownership of an idea is ZEALOUS. Bodies fight tooth and nail to hold onto creative control of a work for decades, and though artists absolutely should profit fairly from their works, even in circumstances where neither money nor reknown are on the line, people are still just as possessive against potential copycats. It's a deeply unhealthy and anti-creative mentality, and the system itself does far more for large corporations than it does for smaller independent creators. We have got to find new ways to suitably compensate artists for their work, in order to facilitate a move away from the ownership of ideas.

[@itsgonnabeanaurfromme]

Original soapbox

[@sageash7546]

Preach!

[@clark5426]

The problem is not solely lies on creators and developers but rather on big corporations

[@LuaanTi]

True, but there is one important thing that changed - reach. Fairy tales developed over time in an iterative fashion, with the more popular pieces getting more staying power. Memetic selection at its finest. But I wouldn't want to go to a book store and see thirty thousand versions of the Little Mermaid with tiny differences on a shelf. It's clear we need to find a balance, and it's also clear enough that corporations are currently _way_ overreaching. Corporations aren't people. They shouldn't _really_ have intellectual property rights :D

[@DL-idk]

I kinda agree until I remember all the remakes Hollywood has been doing over the past few years. That, I think, gets old rather quick. Book space has also been infested by fae and vampire. I had no problem with these fantasy creatures until thousands of authors suddenly all decided to write about them at the same time. I think this is less about copyright. It’s more about people don’t get new experiences and they don’t like the feeling of being tricked into playing different versions of the same game again and again.

[@MaddieThePancake]

Good video, but I'd argue pixel art is a medium, not a style. Compare the original XCOM to Super Metroid, or those to modern games like Octopath Traveler, Celeste, or Carrion. These all have wildly different art styles, despite all being pixel art.

[@mertensiam3384]

Yeah, as someone who does sprite art, its a medium. It shapes your style and how you view things the same way 3D does. 3D allows for more intricate designs while pixel allows for more intention in shape language

[@nullpoint3346]

Aye, you've got a lot to work with and choices to make before you even start making a sprite.

[@confused_beekeeper]

Fax

[@nightbane2889]

@@mertensiam3384 I would say it both a medium and a style. The primary reason I think this is because of DeadCells. It has 3d bones but utilizes resembles pixel art.

[@longdo5910]

Video Game (Interactive Digital Media) is a medium, Digital Illustration is a medium. Pixel Art is an art genre (and a drawing technique-style). It’s like saying Portrait Painting is a medium just because Mona Lisa, Van Gogh self portrait and the portrait of Anne Boleyn looks different.

[@LunarAnimeAngel]

I feel like while there are some clear rip offs but things like Fields of Mystria and Moonstone Island each bring something new, adding to what stardew valley added to Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons. I consider ripoffs things that directly copy but don't add to the game they are trying to imitate.

[@meganbarineau3290]

My one thing with Stardew Valley inspired games that I wish wasn't true is how often they make their dungeons mines. Both Mistria and Coral Island have their main dungeons just be mines. I loved Moonstone Islands little dungeons, and growing up I loved Rune Factory's dungeons. Rune Factory Frontier had you climb a giant beanstalk to the back of a giant whale! I wish we had more creative places to explore and fight.

[@marya234]

I liked Roots of Pacha's spin on it - the mines just have rocks/ores/gems and puzzles

[@EvaHoshizora]

I personally like the SV and Mistria version, but I didn't get to play Coral Island yet, but I did play Harvestella and all Rune Factories, so I'm probs not as tired of it as you are x'D

[@meganbarineau3290]

@@EvaHoshizora to be fair, mines in concept are fine. I just think there's more creativity we can put into them. I was on a farming game kick recently, so I started my fourth playthrough of stardew, then played Mistria, then Coral Island ago in a row. It made the similarities very obvious.

[@BonaparteBardithion]

I can see the criticism since even the SDV mines are basically the HM: Mineral Town mines with monsters right down to the procedurally generated levels and needing to dig for stairs. It's a pretty tired setting. I'm guessing a mine/cave is the easiest way to explain the existence of a large randomized dungeon in close proximity to (usually) a very unmagical town. The more fantastical the general setting is the more creative the devs are likely to get with the resource farming locations.

[@christiancinnabars1402]

It isn't just that their dungeons are mines, imo. It's that, as said by the reply above, they are all specifically _Mineral Town mines._ Go into the mines, break rocks with a hammer/pickaxe, dig for stairs/ladders, and occasionally fight monsters. We've seen in other games that a lot more can be done for mines. Minecraft's generated caves do not function the same way as Pokemon Platinum's Underground, nor does Pokemon Platinum's Underground function the same as even the dungeons in the spin-off series Pokemon Mystery Dungeon. Minecraft has seamless vertical movement thanks to being a 3D game (though even 2D games could implement the mechanic; albeit with moderate difficulty) and thus doesn't require RNGing stairs. The difficulty/obstacles come in the form of needing resources to convert raw materials and to fight off the ever present hostile mobs, and needing to craft higher tiers of pickaxes to collect certain valuable materials. Pokemon Platinum(as well as Diamond/Pearl and BD/SP)'s Underground has no monsters or differing floors at all, and instead focuses on a minigame where you clear out valuable items from walls. The obstacles there being your skill in locating and freeing said items before the wall collapses and buries any unexcavated items. PMD's dungeons are focused way more on fighting opposing Pokemon and finding pre-spawned stairs in each floor, but they still have aspects of a mine. At least in the Rescue Team games, you can break through walls by either knowing Rock Smash or having a high enough IQ (sounds weird, but it's a whole system in the games), which has a low chance of dropping items that are either very rare or flat out unobtainable otherwise. In those games, you can alter the very floor you arrive on and make your own path through the level once you gain the ability to break through walls. All of those games mentioned have vastly different approaches to dealing with mines/mine-like dungeons, so seeing all the mines in farming sim games be virtually the same can lead to gameplay burnout on top of visual burnout.

[@emilybennett8409]

ppl calling fields of mistria too similar to stardew are ignoring Stardew's origin as something that began with Concerned Apes origin as a harvest moon fan. As a Harvest Moon fan, I was ecstatic when I first played Stardew Valley. I feel the same way about Fields of Mistria

[@kcspace64]

My only point of contention is that there are so many fantastic Harvest Moon, and then, Story of Seasons games between the first game and Stardew! Animal Parade, Magical Melody, Trio of Towns (just to name a few great ones!). They're real gems that really improved upon the farming sim genre and are still worth playing today imo.

[@batmabel]

Yeah but they all belong to the same franchise, which I believe is the point here. There are pretty much no other games outside the Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons franchise in this genre before Stardew Valley came along, and that was one of the major points why the creator of SV made it in the first place - he wanted to play Harvest Moon on his PC but it didn't exist. Stardew Valley then went and breath new wind on the whole industry, making even HM/SoS come back with things inspired by SV in them. Of course HM/SoS is the original, that's impossible to deny, but SV is a genre-defining game and changed the gaming industry as a whole. It's very likely that none of the other farming sims we see today would exist without Stardew, just none did before of it regardless of Harvest Moon already existing. To me that's what makes Stardew Valley such an important game for the farming sim genre.

[@BloodyFox13]

How can you not put friends of mineral town in your list of great HM games? :O ;)

[@beingmegucaissuffering.5326]

I feel like Rune Factory also gets overlooked a lot.

[@fatimagochi1184]

@@beingmegucaissuffering.5326 For sure! So many people saying that SV was the first farming sim to introduce fighting to the genre and I'm here like: "But, but, RF exist..." I LOVE farming sims since I got to play HM BtN and I've played almost all HM/SoS and RF games, so yeah, please we want more farming sims :D

[@EvaHoshizora]

@@beingmegucaissuffering.5326 it does get overlook a lot since it was the niche of the niche, had us, the fans, not begged for Nintendo to give them anotehr chance, they would have bankrupt and RF5 wouldn't exist now D=

[@kateb6699]

Honestly while I do love both games, as a longtime Harvest moon/SOS fan who's had to deal with Stardew fans dismissing all new releases from the series as "ripoffs" (including the remake of AWL, a game which originally released in 2003), watching Stardew fans freak over people praising Fields of Mistria has been great schadenfreude. Like damn there's a group of fans of a new game who are unfairly dismissing an earlier series you really love? That sucks, I can't imagine what that's like.

[@pawsp7]

Genuinely brings me joy to see them in dismay after how they've disrespected us. Too bad they can't even argue they actually have the better game tho lol

[@donkeyching8339]

as an avid stardew fan (well over 4000 hours lol) i never understood the hate towards other farming games, especially harvest moon. like i get it if you just prefer stardew over other farming games but just because a game comes out with farming and npcs you can build relationships with doesn’t mean it’s a ripoff. i can’t imagine how devilishly good you feel with the unwarranted stardew hate lol

[@ZombieBarioth]

What's wild to me is you have this subset of fans who like to pretend that all the more recent SoS games are shit and that Stardew "revived" the genre, despite the genre basically not existing because it was either Harvest Moon or Farmville. Of course the games might feel a tad bit stale when they've been the only player in town for 20 years. The thing that really set Stardew apart was the customization and the more mature vibe, since Harvest Moon/SoS was steadily becoming increasingly PG and cutesy.

[@Grac3AndP3ac3]

I agree, I didn't even know awl got remade until a year after and was sad/angry to hear people giving it low ratings for being a stardew valley rip off downgrade when it was absolutely a 10/10 remake! It took what the old game had and updated it while also giving you more then what the original game had and while the reviews put doubt in me, I still (out of love for Harvest moon/Sos A wonderful life (first game I ever played as a kid in the farming genre) I still bought it and have been having a blast ever since! I'm year 2 at the end of summer with all the hybrid crop seeds! And the processing room and pound! :D I can't wait for Van to return just so i can sell him milk and cheese

[@KenBladehart]

@@ZombieBarioth Harvest Moon always been cutesy since the very beginning. You just dont see it

[@Foxborn]

I'm assuming your timeline is only showing the first entry of each series of games, but you showed it as if to say "harvest moon shouldn't be considered in the same realm as Stardew because it was released so long ago" but there have been at least 20 different Harvest Moon games and 2 Story of Seasons games (which are the same series as Harvest Moon, just with a different title) before Stardew was even released. And the third Story of Seasons was released just a few months after Stardew. Just wanted to put this here because the timeline you showed wasn't really an accurate depiction of how the farm sim genre evolved over time leading up to Stardew.

[@shadowjmg2]

They were showing series in the genre over time. Harvest moon gets released later they make rune factory then stardew comes out. Prior to stardew the genre was just harvest moon or fantasy harvest moon. I'm honesty not aware of any other farming games before stardew.

[@jokerofspades-xt3bs]

Yeah arguable the most important farming game outside of the first Harvest Moon is Harvest Moon on the Gameboy Advance, the timeline was a bit confusing and weird but it does still get the point across

[@AvidgamerZ]

@@shadowjmg2 The Atelier series, while strictly not farming, I'd argue falls into a similar category.

[@Mienarrr]

As someone who has loved cozy farming sims ever since I was a child, I love the fact that there are so many new ones coming out! Pardon my language but who gives a crap if not all of them are as „good“ as the ones hailed to be the best in the genre. As long as they are unique in some ways they can still be enjoyable. I dont like all this nitpicky comparing that the gaming community does to farming sims. Edit: I also firmly believe saying Stardew Valley is the blueprint is false. If not for the harvest moon series, stardew valley wouldnt exist as it was a huge inspiration. Game devs only picked up on it because of the huge hype it (deservedly) got at the time and how people seemed to be more open to the genre, but its not the number 1 just for that. That feels wrong imo.

[@nicole9680]

The Stardew Valley discourse over the last near-decade has really completed my transformation into an old head. I love STV for expanding the genre beyond Marvelous' niche. But the monkey's paw curls because the fans that came along with STV's success are often extremely dismissive of the history of the genre. And if I were not an old head, I'd ignore it but it bugs me that STV is the standard for the genre the STV set of mechanics have become the standard set. And we never get more modern interpretations of like romantic rivals, robust family life, etc. I just think that's a bit sad.

[@AvidgamerZ]

Man! The romantic rivals thing just gave me flashbacks of Friends of Mineral Town.. Walking into Gray and Popuri's heart event before I got to befriend her and being locked out cause of it hurt..

[@domennysometimesplays2484]

Romantic rivals disappeared because Japanese Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons fans hated it (both for not liking one of the NPCs having their future partner "stolen" and being left out or for just not agreeing with the official ships lol)

[@FarmingSimNews]

My Time At Evershine is bringing rivals back to some extent. I hope more and more better old school features from HM make their way to these games

[@shannonreed822]

You know, I'm going to admit that while I love the rest of the video, I absolutely disagree on harvestella being a stardew valley clone. I do think it was an attempt to ride the wave of farming games, but I don't think it was *just* that. As someone who finished all but the epilogue dungeon and the well dungeon, you can tell there was genuinely a lot of passion in this game. You can tell care and effort were put in! But you can also tell that no one on the team with any power had played a farming game since the original rune factory. Harvestella genuinely has its own identity and clear vision, but it also feels like they gave it to in-house devs who only knew how to do the RPG part of making games, but not the farming part. I can't say that for some of the genuinely awful or cash-grabby games I've played in the past. If there had been some special 20 dollar DLC content I'd be more likely to agree with you that this was more cash grab than not, but instead I think that it was Square Enix genuinely trying to dip its toes into the water of farming games to find out if it's worth their time to invest in something even bigger. Especially when you look at it compared to all the rest of the non-rpg (and even some of those) games coming out by them. That said? I love literally all of the rest of the video. And I am going to see if I can get neighbourvania to proliferate among my friends because "Cosy farming game" is less fun to say.

[@RooftopRose079]

Agreed. Harvestella was a great game with much more focus on its overall narrative/character stories and the farming was very much a side thing you could choose to focus on if you wanted. The majority of the game is combat and character interaction. Not to mention how crazy the story can get. I loved it!

[@shannonreed822]

@@RooftopRose079 Yeah!!! Yeah!! I really hope they make another game in the future that has these elements, now with the experience to make improvements in the farming areas. Not really a sequel, unless it's like, 500 years in the future or something, but like. I feel like now that they have some experience and feedback they could really make something even more special?

[@kiketsu]

Thank you! I felt the exact same way

[@angelsheavenlygarden1267]

Forgive me if this has already been brought up, but I feel the need to mention “Harvest Moon” is not Harvest moon anymore in Jp it’s “Bokujou Monogatari” (ranch story) and was localized under the name “harvest moon” but people who make the actual hm/bm games got a new localization team and “harvest moon” is now “story of seasons” the original localization team just owns tye rights to the harvest moon name and any new hm games are not made by the original team

[@finleyy]

yeah I think this would've been good to mention in the video

[@moonknightress5059]

I have to speak out in defense of Harvestella because it's a good game that was a victim of bad, deceptive advertisement. It's neither a farming game nor a neighborvania game, it's a classic battle heavy jrpg that only has farming elements and those were put front and center in the trailers

[@Nifilway]

Yep! It’s more similar to final fantasy than stardew valley

[@angel1452678]

The video makes a lot of good points but there's a lot of stuff just swept under the rug. To say harvest moon (and by extension story of seasons) should be left out of the conversation is like saying the original AC had no affect whatsoever on today's rise of "cozy" games. Along with that, the vegetables in AC was an extension of the fruit and flowers system that had been there since the beginning in 2001. They didn't sporadically update ACNH with crops either, it's been documented that crops has always been part of ACNH's code since release and during 2020 the game had already been doing monthly updates that added in content like swimming or the art part of the museum.

[@Sl1mch1ckens]

Its 2am and im tired, the fact that assassins creed and animal crossing both get sortend to AC made this read very differently for a second lol

[@domennysometimesplays2484]

@@Sl1mch1ckens and then there's Armored Core too xD

[@elizabethdalton3650]

Dude, Harvest Moon is the reason behind Stardew Valley’s existence! ConcernedApe met the creator of Harvest Moon and got approval!

[@joeytabora1052]

The nintendo direct thing is really funny to me. I think it definitely put the phenomenon on to people radars. On the other hand Considering that two of the titles were remakes of Story of Season/Harvest Moon games (Rune Factory is a spinoff of Story of Seasons, for those who don't know), and one was the next entry in the Atelier series. I don't know much about the other games that were announced, but it's very funny to me that this big thing that made people start talking more about Stardew Valley ripoffs contained 3 games that were so far from being that.

[@RyanJW001]

I don't even think Atelier is anything close to a farming game in the first place. If you strip the game down to its core, it's a series where its incredibly detailed crafting system takes center stage. Farming is just one of several avenues to obtain materials, and the extent of it is to plant a seed and come back later to a list of materials that get shoved in your storage. It's not even available until mid game, and making it viable as a way of gaining useful materials often takes a fair bit of effort for payoff that's sometimes only dubiously useful. It is very strictly a means to an end. A supporting mechanic to the game's main loop. It's honestly weird to even see it mentioned in this video.

[@AvidgamerZ]

Yeah! Confused the heck out of me too.. The new RF and Atelier announcement got me so excited and then I saw the whole "ripoff" backlash and that just made my brain go into "cannot compute" mode. xD

[@GlizzyAssassin]

Lmao that thumbnail is gonna grab so many rage bait viewers

[@m.ceniza4688]

had to click when i saw animal crossing

[@dallydaydream]

I will admit to the "surely everyone knows by now that Harvest Moon came first?" kneejerk reaction, but usually vidoes like this make a point to clarify that early on

[@aya.studies]

@@m.ceniza4688same 😭

[@astraphel1896]

It got me but then I was like wait maybe this is to go AGAINST that and I am glad to findout it did!

[@waffles3629]

Fr. And some of the comments ring that so true, sadly.

[@HexManiacHana]

Modern Harvest Moon games are only Harvest Moon in name; Natsume kept the name after Marvelous split. Story of Seasons is the real Harvest Moon. Honestly when I see a new neighborvania game, I just think "oh neat" and probably wishlist it on steam if I vibe with it.

[@dreamysheepstudios]

It’s insane to me that some people will call Harvest Moon a Farming clone to Stardew when HM was around since 1996. I honestly love the farming game mechanic with having romance options and such and don’t mind games that are similar. Like there are so many shooter games that are basically the same mechanics but no one really calls them clones. I think the unfair part of this genre is that people put Stardew Valley on the highest pedestal when Harvest Moon is actually the pioneer for the genre. I grew up with HM games on the Wii and my DS, and when I first played Stardew when it came out, I was like “Oh sweet, it’s like another Harvest Moon!” but as time went on, it got so popular that people forgot about HM and it just makes me so sad to see others say that Stardew is the peak when it was already done sooo long ago

[@sageash7546]

Same. I love SDV and am still playing and I'm glad CA made it the way he wanted to but I want there to be more games like it because there's so much he didn't touch!

[@finleyy]

this

[@LuaanTi]

Stardew Valley happened because CA _wanted a Harvest Moon game on the PC_ . The devs/publishers of Harvest Moon and Story of Seasons weren't interested in doing that. Then Stardew Valley absolutely exploded, _far_ outselling all the Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons titles combined, proving that the PC is a great target platform for a game like this. Unsurprisingly, this was what _finally_ convinced HM/SoS to release a PC title. It's not CA's fault that they ignored the PC for more than twenty years :D Also, he clearly went back to the OG Harvest Moon for the most part. Which was another hard pill to swallow for publishers at the time - the idea that _maybe_ older games still have something to offer, and that games aren't necessarily better just because they are newer or have fancy polygon graphics. And encouraged a lot of budding developers to just make the games they want to make, and see if they stick.

[@Pikaton659]

Ryza catching strays for absolutely no reason lol

[@kipame]

Atelier franchise being included in there got me baffled it hasnt even got farming why are we naming it

[@a5zr]

Neighborcore is what i’ve been calling them 😊

[@4eraeI]

In the end, calling (the majority of) these games ripoffs is the re4l rip-off in the end

[@lilysapphire3434]

The emotional damage I got from the timeline excluding Innocent Life in 2006, it's a lovely farming sim with brilliant sci-fi and fantasy elements but no one remembers or heard of...

[@emerlance]

was a great game, but one of the reason why it turned off some people to play because we can't have a proper relationship like Harvest Moon at the time

[@haruananase3706]

Oh man, Innocent Life! I really enjoyed that one, and I agree that it's sad that it's forgotten. I can see why, however - it had a few niche concepts that ultimately detracted from why people play these kinds of games. Being so story-heavy, the fact that you can't customize yourself, build relationships, or basically be 'yourself' is one big deterrent. Secondly, it felt...short. Because of the set-in-stone storyline, once you beat the game there wasn't much reason to continue playing. You had a set time limit and no long-term goals to work towards - once you solved the 'mystery' of the island and farmed the crops you needed, that was it. Four in-game years max to enjoy the game. And, lastly, it first released on a console that in itself suffered from popularity issues, especially overseas, the PSP. All this contributed to it falling into obscurity. I played it and enjoyed it immensely, but there were certainly reasons it's obscure. I, honestly, would really enjoy a more futuristic farming sim in the same vein, since none have released that really appeal to me in the same way as the HM/SoS games do, but one that actually did employ all the mechanics the games are known for without such a strict storyline and time limit. I think that would be an untapped niche of the market!

[@hellkisser]

In Indonesia, Harvest Moon: Back to Nature was so popular until this day, due to its became the first game that got localized to Indonesia. So, when Stardew Valley was start to get attention in 2016-2017. A lot of people's call it Harvest Moon copycat, but they were shock when they saw the combat mechanic

[@KenBladehart]

Those people never heard of Rune Factory? Lmao what

[@hannyprasetya8638]

^it is, Because as an Indonesian, its literally my first time hearing that game. Though that is just my personal experience, i have never seen anyone talk about "Rune Factory" as farming game, only HM.

[@hellkisser]

@@KenBladehart No, Indonesian players only play Harvest Moon Back to Nature anyway, due to language barrier they don't even play other HM/SOS game, let alone knowing what the heck Runefactory Only player that really into the series are the only one who know RF

[@beomkaslana]

Rune Factory series are mostly in Nintendo consoles. And Nintendo (until switch) is pretty much very obscure in Indonesia because they favor Playstation SO MUCH. I always see PS1-PS5 rentals everywhere, but never Nintendo rentals.

[@EmeraldAshesAudio]

Ngl, my initial reaction to Stardew was "A Harvest Moon copycat? Fantastic. Love Harvest Moon."

[@Rihcterwilker]

People forgetting harvest moon existed for decades with a bunch of games and calling it Stardew valley clone.

[@clarehidalgo]

My friend in high school turning into a skeleton at the tender age of 17 when people were calling a 1980s Anime (Getter Robo) a rip-off of a mid-2000s anime (Gurren Lagann)

[@hitchicker42]

New gaming vocabulary has been added to my lexicon, Neighborvania, thank you Salmence

[@MercuryA2000]

Yea I really like that as a name for it. It feels right.

[@safetyboots]

It's a terrible name that doesn't make sense. Even the vague "cozy games" handle is better.

[@batmabel]

@@safetyboots Fr, that's gotta be the worse made up genre name I've ever heard lol

[@CompSomAnichi]

It so funny seeing this reply section be 50-50 split on the name at the time of me writing this comment section.

[@CompSomAnichi]

I break the tie and say I like neighborvania more than cozy game. Edit: 13:45 Salmence about the word

[@MNTNHMESMO]

Neighborvania is not a good name for this type of game. I think we should mash the biggest ones together like people did with Metroid and Castlevania. So these games should be called something like Harvest-Valley games. Or Stardew-Moon games.

[@UltimaKeyMaster]

Neighborvania sounds horribly inaccurate. I want to fight Dracula with a shovel before I consider it as such. More seriously, I have a more important distinction: Which games let you ACTUALLY SAVE IN THE MIDDLE OF A DAY and not have to fully commit to that day to save. And yes, Stardew is included on the negative side here because you need a mod for that. Rune Factory lets me and that's one BIG reason it's my go-to for these games.

[@Veylon]

You can save in the middle of the day in Fields of Mistria.

[@batmabel]

Fields of Mistria allows you to save in the middle of the day.

[@eugenie8661]

You can quit in the middle of the day and keep your progress in Sun Haven too! It loads you back to the farm of the area you were at. Little anecdote; I just started a new Stardew file and almost closed midday once cause I got used to doing it in my latest Sun Haven game lol

[@MonAhgasInsomniAroELF]

yesss i HATE games that do that!!!! coral island is probably one of my favorite farming sims right now, but the fact that it makes you save at the end of the day like stardew and not at any point is a MASSIVE red mark to the cons list for that game. it actually makes me play a game less if i can't save at any point. i don't always have a whole 30 mins-an hour or something to play a whole day, sometimes i want to hop on for 15 or twenty minutes, do a few things, and then save and head off for work or errands. like it seams like such a outdated/obsolete, anachronistic mechanic. why on earth would you not allow people to save at any point?? especially considering games or computers crash sometimes. it would be so much more comforting to gamers to know that they have a recent save they can go back to if a crash happens so they won't have to re-do a ton of shit, rather than being forced to re-do everything they did throughout the whole day. so dumb honestly

[@BonaparteBardithion]

My guess is ConcernedApe implemented only saving once a day for added challenge because that's the way it was in early Harvest Moon titles. Later HM titles do allow saving anywhere and, speaking from experience, it does encourage save scumming against negative events or poor dialogue choices. Being able to save only once a day encourages the player to plan more carefully and either accept negative outcomes or sacrifice further time to getting the desired result. New games using the same save mechanic probably have a similar intention. Personally, I prefer the convenience of being able to shut the game off anytime (and save scumming).

[@Arcuied]

This video would be better without the Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons disrespect. I understand that this isn't a "History of farming games" video, but that is a big oversimplification of HM's legacy, as if they only ever made one kind of game. Yes, they're all farming games/neighborvania, but if you erased the names and references I bet most people would think they're made by entirely different people. Because they are, they just happen to come from the same company and can be lumped together because of it and the "farming game" concept, yet at the same time they can all very extremely different.

[@NintendoCapriSun]

Please lord, don't let the player base of Journey ever die! I've played a few too many of these by now to mention. Fae Farm was just OK to me, I think I liked Harvestella slightly more, but I didn't "finish" either of them. Wylde Flowers was the most pleasant surprise, but well crap, didn't finish that one either. Sun Haven has been the most tempting one that I haven't tried. As for Mistria, it's gonna be huge and I'm here for it. Not having to worry about when shops are open? Be still my beating heart.

[@AngelicMissMarie]

Calling any game a rip-off stifles art and freedom, unless someone is literally taking assets from a game and using them without permission it's just a new game in the farming genre.

[@clarehidalgo]

I actually played Stardew Valley before any of the Marvelous Story of Seasons (formerly Harvest Moon) and Run Factory games though I was aware of them. I like Rune Factory's skill system best. Sleeping, eating, farming, and even walking all have proficiency levels that increase your stats

[@pokespritemaker3]

I'm so saddened that people call Stardew the standard of farming games when Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons did it first.

[@evilgeniusha01]

First isn't always best. There's a reason "X invented a thing Y perfected it" is a cliche. Stardew is the standard in the sense that it's the reference point people measure other games against.

[@pokespritemaker3]

@@evilgeniusha01 I guess it's just my nostalgia or boomer take. I grew up with Harvest Moon: Friends of Mineral Town and played that so much as a kid and other installments of the series (not the current crappy pay 2 win ones though. The Story of Seasons installments). Don't get me wrong, I love Stardew as well and Fields of Mistria is just as enjoyable.

[@Bloodglas]

the reason people compare it to Stardew is 'cause that's what most people know as the standard now. Stardew was inspired by HM but these new ones are inspired by Stardew, so it makes more sense to compare to that. like, I always see someone mention the originals but I never see people talking about the new Harvest Moon or Story of Seasons games.

[@safetyboots]

​@evilgeniusha01 Harvest Moon did it really well, Stardew Valley is just the most famous currently. Your argument is no different from saying that Undertale perfected the "Earthbound formula", which is a ridiculous and nonsensical oversimplification. The thing is that farming games as we know would exist without Stardew Valley, but not without Harvest Moon.

[@UltimaKeyMaster]

It is the standard. Harvest Moon and Rune Factory walked so Stardew and its brethren could run. The standard means baseline in quality, not first.

[@froggymuds]

I haven't watched the video yet, but I will say I think fields of mistria is an incredible game. It's just different enough from stardew to be enjoyable without straying too far from what I like about it

[@theuglywolf2536]

There's another factor as well - people find their favourite and latch onto it. For most people, Stardew Valley was their first farming/life sim, and formed their opinions that anything that came after it was a clone. People of a certain vintage referred to SV as a Harvest Moon clone. People that are fans of vampire lore, Arthurian lore, Robin Hood lore, any form of mythical lore will latch onto the first novel/movie/wiki article they read on it and declare that that is the true source of lore. To them. every other farming/life sim is a clone because it dares to stand in the shadow of the first one they first loved.

[@katashworth41]

I really enjoyed Travellers’ Rest, there’s the Stardew element of growing ingredients, cooking/brewing with your ingredients and serving the townspeople. The pub also gets an adorable cat.

[@nataliemart4164]

thanks, i want to find something like STV. i startes stardew only 3 weeks ago and it`s my favorite game. someday I`ll maybe try mods. But I wish to find something similar and with good quality gameplay. And i`m really interested in stories with npc

[@bunnykisses]

I feel like this video topic is important for this genre of games (Neighborvania) because it is so tiering to just hear "xyz is a clone/dupe/ripoff" when folks don't understand it is a GENRE. great job!

[@CyrusMajin]

The term I've heard and used myself is "Farming Life Sim." These are kind of a loose fusion of both the Life Sim genre and being a farming simulator, but lighter on the overall mechanics that would put games like Stardew Valley actually into either category. This in turn makes these a more appealing alternative for those who find playing a full on Life Sim like, well, "The Sims" or an actual farming simulator incredibly tedious and boring.

[@cats4president]

IMHO Farming isn't really the core of these games, making friends with the npc's is. I can image SDV-like games where the farming has been replaced by another activity and it would still feel like the same type of game. But if you would take away the connect-with-npc's part it would not feel like the same sort of game.

[@n1fffan]

kinda funny that you mentioned those later harvest moon games as being ripoffs, because that is exactly what spawned the creation of Stardew Valley. I'm sure most reading this know the story by now. ConcernedApe loved the Harvest Moon series, played them quite frequently, when he played the then newest Harvest Moon (which, basing on the timeline, I'm thinking was The Lost Valley on 3DS, released in 2014, which was the first Harvest Moon produced by Natsume after losing the rights to localize the Bokujō Monogatari series) and was disappointed, because it wasn't the game series he grew up loving. Seeing this, he took to working on making his own game.

[@nyaruhodonyaruhodo5675]

atelier games have had 'tiny garden to grow ingredients from seeds you synthesized' mechanics since AT LEAST Rorona (2009). no idea why Ryza is in the vid lol

[@invaderjoshua6280]

I think Lightyear Frontier is a great example of a fantasy farming game that nearly completely dose its own thing and try’s a new take.

[@loke6664]

I think I prefer the term "Slice of life game" myself. Neighborvania just doesn't roll of the tounge as easily (maybe because I ain't a native English speaker?). There is always a discussion about if a game is a clone, inspired by or just generally in the same genre and I don't think we should use "clone" too often. Clone implies it is a cashgrab, trying to get a piece of the pie from a successful games and those games tend to be pretty soulless. Mistria is heavily inspired by SDV, that is clear but I think they put in a bit too much effort into it for it just being a clone. I am not so sure it can sell more then 30 million copies like Stardew though, but Stardew really had no competition at release and it came out at the perfect time so I have my doubts if any similar games actually can beat in in sales. Stardew also have another advantage: It is a game about escaping the stress of modern life to settle down in a small town and becoming a farmer. I think many people have fantasized about doing just that so it is a theme anyone can understand and see themselves in. A fantasy adventurer settling down in a small town is less general. On the other hand, Mistria do add more customization to your house which certainly have a lot of fans. Personally, I think it's biggest weakness is that all the NPC have anime styled portraits while the player only have the chibi character they walk around with. I hope they add that because the character portraits are rather good, they should have the character creation system focus on that instead and just simplify it for the walking sprite.

[@neokolder472]

I believe that Neighborvania can describe more than just farming games. There are a lot now games where main focus can be on any kind of stuff. Like alchemy, smithing, shop or restaurant ownership etc. And s lot of them can be united in the case that they are about doing it in some sort of society, being part of neighborhood so to say

[@MonAhgasInsomniAroELF]

true. but also by that definition, even skyrim would fall under the category of neighborvania since you run errands for people in towns, grow relationships, get married, etc. it could even be argued that it could tote the genre of farming sim, considering you can farm, mine, craft, catch bugs, etc 😂

[@neokolder472]

@@MonAhgasInsomniAroELF I wouldn't say so. After all to be a part of neighborhood you need to live there. So basically any game where you don't own any kind of property is automatically disqualified. As well as games where you own some sort of property, but that property is isolated (f.e. Minecraft or Core Keeper)

[@i_am_ergo]

"Neighborvania" is as imbecilic a genre name as "souls-like" or "multiplayer online battle arena." Just saying.

[@Bekah_Penguin]

I’m not sure why some people fuss over the fact that a lot more people are making farming life sims these days … If you don’t want to play it, then don’t. I love the genre and there can’t ever be enough of them because I will eventually play them all as long as they good! I was so tired of waiting back in the day for a new harvest moon game to come out because that was the only of its kind back then. And I agree, sometimes new games can try to be too different and end up making a worse game for it.

[@MonAhgasInsomniAroELF]

i love your perspective and i wholeheartedly agree. as someone who frankly just does not even like stardew valley but enjoys other farming/life sims, nothing is more frustrating than trying to learn about a new one, or going into the comment/review section, just to see a bunch of bs about how "it's just stardew valley but with xyz added" or like you mentioned "it's a stardew ripoff" especially considering stardew valley isn't even the blueprint (again, like you mentioned), harvest moon is. people really are missing the fact that the similarities they're seeing are literally just the genre being present. i love that you brought up platform games and first person shooters, because yes! there probably are some comments in those communities about games being ripoffs or something occasionally, but i certainly hear about it a lot less. because people in those communities seem to better understand that the point of a genre is to present different stories with the same/similar mechanics and focus! from an outsider, all those games look exactly the same to me, but even i wouldn't consider them ripoffs of each other, because that's the genre. they're _supposed_ to be similar! maybe it's because i'm a writer and avid reader since i was young, but i get that content of the same genre is SUPPOSED to follow a fairly strict set of rules that will be the same in every single story coming from that genre. if it deviates from those rules, it is no longer considered part of that genre, but either a hybrid or one of its own. when i read historical fiction, i sure as hell expect the setting to be from an era previous to ours, it should never be a modern/future setting (for example if you write a story about modern people putting on a historical play, you can't call that historical fiction just because there are elements in your work of fiction with a historical focus/theme. that is NOT how that genre label is meant to be used). the expectation is that the story takes place in a historical time period, that's where your characters actually live/are from, and where the entire story, or at least the majority of it, takes place. that's something you can always reliably expect when you pick up a book of that genre. or if i read romance novels, there had better be a swoon-worthy main lead who falls in love with the main character, and they _have_ to have a happy/satisfactory ending where they end up with each other, those are rules of the genre that cannot be changed and must be followed in _every. single._ novel of the romance genre. but no one ever complains that all romance novels are the same because... that's the fuckin point lmao. same goes for farming sims. people really need to recognize that the point of the farming sim genre is for games to be very similar (same theme, focus, and general objectives/activities) but have their own unique flair, and just not be a 100% exact same copy. that's it. no other requirements. honestly, i don't know what the complainers expect. if they don't want to play a game similar to stardew, why do they even play other games in the same genre? just go play a new genre. but i guess they can only play one game per genre then, since ever other game will be considered a "ripoff" of the one they like best 😂

[@Vekets]

Lukewarm take, I'd still be playing SoS - Sunshine Isle if it got free updates making it better every so often. The best thing to ever happen to Stardew is that ConcernedApe never made a Stardew Valley 2.

[@luminousazael3137]

Got a huge whiplash when the atelier series somehow got included in that Nintendo Direct section or war crimes

[@milo4885]

Oh my god a youtuber who actually details what games the gameplay shown is from in the description. I'm more grateful than you can imagine. Thank you!

[@KitKatStudioskittenforever]

Stardew set a standard but other farming games still rock too!!

[@safetyboots]

No, the standard was set by Harvest Moon. Stardew Valley is just the most famous currently.

[@leonidesbabanto1585]

@@safetyboots come on, I acknowledge and appreciate Harvest moon for basically kickstarting an entire genre, but let's be honest, Stardew Valley has objectively surpassed Harvest Moon and is definitely the standard that other farming games are compared to. Like it's not even close

[@safetyboots]

@leonidesbabanto1585 Stardew Valley being better doesn't mean it set the standard. Besides, Stardew Valley doesn't implement anything groundbreaking to the genre, it only improves on the foundations laid out by Harvest Moon. You could say that Stardew Valley is the new industry standard, but that's not what we're talking about. Every new game on this genre is following the steps of Harvest Moon.

[@MasterLPG]

@@safetyboots *That obscure 'E.V.O.: The Theory of Evolution' game though, nice!* 😎

[@CallMeFreakFujiko]

Stardew didn't set the "standard." Stardew didn't implement anything that can't be found in the Harvest Moon games made before it besides maybe the combat system. Even then Rune Factory was still made way before Stardew Valley. Play Harvest Moon Friends of Mineral Town or DS and you can totally see where all of Stardew's roots (heh) came from.

[@redridinghoodie34]

i don't think it should be understated the appeal of this fable that one can just become a subsistence farmer/homesteader by moving somewhere rural and having a house with a lot of land around it to utilize. i think that's probably a big reason why farming sims/"neighbourvanias" have exploded in popularity post-Stardew Valley, the idea of "god i wish i could just move somewhere out in the country and have a farm" is a very compelling (and somewhat controversial) fantasy to have, esp. given how unattainable it is for many ppl to whom video games are appealing (urbanites with modest incomes and lives that feel suffocating for a variety of reasons). the "cozy" game also rising in popularity for similar reasons can also attribute to this phenomenon, but this is just some food for thought.

[@NoraNoita]

All these farming games so far, have not yet beaten either Harvest Moon Hero of Leaf Valley, HM Back to Nature or Stardew Valley, for me yet. Also calling out Atelier games is owning to the fact you never played an Atelier game, they are magical.

[@skylara_k]

The Atelier games are also a very long running series, releasing nearly one every year since 1997, where you can see the progression from game to game. Just more proof this guy knows nothing about what he was talking about and this was all about views. Shame he got what he wanted.

[@RyanJW001]

Atelier also isn't even a farming game. Farming exists (at least in the most recent entries), but the mechanic is pretty basic and mostly just exists as a means to an end. It's far from the point of the game, and it's rarely all that worth doing unless you need specific materials at really high quality or you need some of the rare effects farming can add. Not really something I've found particularly necessary to bother with until end game. And like, no other game does crafting like Atelier, at least that I've seen. Crafting is the real meat of Atelier, and it's incredibly detailed and intricate.

[@bleuumscarlett7977]

Atelier is more crafting rpg than farming life sim, yes, but i see the similarities nonetheless: it's cozy, you go explore the map, you forage ingredients you use in crafting... sure, it's not farming, but the similarities are there. It's similar to rune factory (at least the one i played) enough that i see why atelier was mentioned

[@delrodriguez9422]

These are not rip offs these are just more of the same ingredients mixed into new meals that i can eat again and again I get more of what i love in a new package

[@AmSmith-yx1lh]

Harvestella is a beautiful RPG, and I feel like it should have stayed just a MMO RPG. I bought the game secondhand in December of 2022, and I loved the characters, the beautiful world, the interesting characters, and everything the game has to offer. Minus the farming...honest to God I forgot about it's farming mechanic because I was so much more entranced with its dungeons and story, that I completely forgot about the like doomsday storm thing that comes at the end of every season. I think the game could have benefited much more from either sizing down it's farming mechanics, or axing them entirely

[@EAlexandra3]

Great video! I like the bit about that everyone will have their favorites and that's a good thing. I know Traveller's Rest has gotten a ton of accusations of being an imitation, but I love that game for such different reasons than I love SDV.

[@bear3s]

Fields of Mistria is definitely a special one between all of them, I loved the QoL changes and especially the NPCs, they're all lovely

[@elise3517]

Hey, Ranch Story isn't just 2 games, it has decades of them Kinda frustrating to see you just plop the first Harvest Moon and Rune Factory games on the timeline as if the series hadn't made tons of advancement in them As a Stardew fan, basically everything in Stardew before 1.6 already existed in Ranch Story/Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons/Rune Factory The only things Stardew added were using its own combat system instead of a previous Ranch Story or Rune Factory one, making your own clothes, and randomized quests (which was already a thing in life sim/self sufficiency games So yeah, Harvest Moon kinda SHOULD be in the conversation, Stardew is a Ranch Story fangame with original stuff added in late in development That's not a bad thing, but pretending like Stardew isn't directly borrowing 90% of its design from Ranch Story is disingenuous Edit: Still glad you made this video, Mistria shouldn't get shat on by people who don't know better Just that brushing aside how much progress Wada and his team made over the years is aggravating Ranch Story ALREADY has gone severely under credited when people talk about HM-likes

[@ironwolf5802]

If anything for single player games, what could kill it is another game that most people would think of first. If someone ask me for a relaxing farming game, I think Stardew first. If asked for another I've played a Harvest Moon (one on the Switch can't remember the name), or Sun Haven. I still recommend other games too, but Stardew is first to mind.

[@SilentRuth10]

Great video! I def agree that the oversaturation has tampered folks' excitement regardless of a game's actual quality. After many replays, what makes me smile most in Stardew is actually the little things - the "pop" sound effect when you pick something up; the lovely music that fades into atmospheric wind noises; the chime when you level up. The small details make it satisfying to play the game for hours, just like Minecraft's little chime as you gather EXP orbs!

[@jamiekaystardew]

All I know is concerned ape's stardew valley and music soothes my soul! I suffer from anxiety and I've learned to save myself by playing a recorded playthrough on my KZbin. I also play a few others, but I don't know why they'd be called rip off when it's a genre, or category. Good vid anyway! I wish you'd play Livestreams. ❤❤❤

[@CallMeFreakFujiko]

People who are saying shit like "Harvest Moon walked so Stardew Valley could run and become the standard" has obviously not played enough Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons games. Stardew Valley has clear direct inspirations coming from Friends of Mineral Town and DS. (And the entire series, but I mostly see it in those games.)

[@dbb3451]

I think it is interesting that he mentioned Ryza 3 here randomly because Ryza and all the Atelier games have ZERO things to do with farming sim/neighborvanias. I think he just thought it looked like it fit the aesthetic and just decided to randomly throw it in. Kinda like the people he was kinda chastising did? Just thought that was interesting.

[@ziljin]

Coral Island is my favorite farming sim. I dont like pixel art where I can't see any details. Also Coral Island has chonky cute cuddly animals like Harvest Moon, unlike Stardew Valley.

[@nightfrostbreeze]

I really love pixel art being used in this genre because it makes gridding out your farm and house much easier and cleaner looking.

[@ZenHorakti]

Because before SDV, all Harvest Moon game so hard to get at least... 1 Million copy sold Then, SDV is 30 mil sold. People never ever think farming game can be that popular.

[@Degrelecence]

I love you @Salmence, but I think Neighborvania is a terrible name! lol It is hard to say and requires and explanation to 'make sense.' Here are two alternatives: Rural Life Sims (you said it yourself at 5:18). And Stardew-like (in the vein of Rogue-like or Souls-like or Metroid-vania).

[@SirSmuggler]

Nice summary of the "problem", but I have to ask, what does Atelier Ryza have to do with it? That can hardly be likened with a neighbuorvania? And the Atelier series goes back as long as Harvest moon if I not misstaken.

[@salmence100]

I didn't categorize Atelier Ryza as a "Harvest Moon-like" game, just as another release that also had farming in that Nintendo Direct

[@Raiaka]

@@salmence100 The problem is that you specifically mentioned it with the cash grabs without any followup disclaimer like you did for Fae Farm. It's another entry in the Atelier series. They're alchemy games. Of course there's going to be a gardening element to them. There were no changes or additions that would suggest an attempt to capitalize on Stardew's success. It just feels like a lack of due diligence, because your lack of clarification means that a viewer who is not familiar with the Atelier games is going to come away from this video with the impression that Atelier Ryza 3 falls into that cash grab territory. You could have very easily just not mentioned it in this video.

[@frogb00ts]

​@@salmence100 Yeah the lack of clarity in that section really just made it come across as you saying that all of those games you mentioned with the exception of Fae Farm are cash grabs, even though 2 were from the company that invented the genre and the 3rd is an entry in a 20+ year old series that isn't even a farming sim.

[@icarue993]

Before this, I completely forgot Ryza had a farming mechanic (and Sophie 2 did too). I hardly can call it farming in a similar way as SV, but I barely played Ryza 3. I finished Ryza 1, half way Ryza 2, started Ryza 3. And after Resraliana (or the gacha game), Im just waiting for the TWO Ateliers next year...

[@icarue993]

@@Raiaka I mean... Atelier having a yearly (or more) release does make it a bit cash grabby, specially with so much DLC, but for me, it falls between cash grabby and not. There's enough soul and innovation to enjoy the games, but... its yearly releases. If anything, maybe they are very smart developers/publishers.

[@Alex1jag]

In what world is Atelier Riza a ripoff of anything? The Atelier franchise has been around since the PS1 era, and the main mechanic of the series is the alchemy.

[@vonfaustien3957]

Because most people are completely ignorant of history and think the first thing they saw in a genre must have the orgin. Diesnt matter if Harvest moon and its derivitives are old as dirt. It doesn't matter if Concerned Ape flat outnsaid he was inspired by them a suprising number of people are just incapable of recognizing the world didnt start with there birth.

[@eanternet]

What game is shown in 4:13? The one with card battles

[@TheADHDM]

Moonstone Island

[@rieiid5867]

It's hilarious to me that people act like Stardew is THE farming game when I was playing farming games for over a decade before it ever came out 💀

[@lapniappe]

I guess for me it doesn't matter. I just want to go and farm and romance people. I have noticed a lot of people say X is Stardew because they've Stardew'ed first. (which is me. I remember my best friend gushing about it and I said and i quote "Why would I want to waste my time doing that?" (enter covid, and a very long illness where all i could mentally handle is farming games and 1180 hours and counting.lll because i love it LOL). There are times where i say "I wish the farming was ala stardew" but there are a lot of times i say I wish stardew was like this game." there is no perfect game, (stardew included) and that's why there are so many versions. beacuse people want. something to scratch that itch. I am still surprised no one has made a farming sim where all the romancable people are 30++ because that's a HUGE chunk of the market.. that's a BIG backlash on games (like stardew, SoS and Rune Factory etc. the fact that they are older now and the marriagables are so young - or seem young are just immature). so. yeah I am happy for all the ripoffs for there is more land to till!

[@AzumarillConGafasBv]

How can you say that Animal Crosing is a Stardew Valley clone?, they don't play the same nor does the concept of Animal Crosing matches the ones seen on Stardew valley, that seem as a bit of a stretch to my liking

[@chibisatan2901]

The whole thing with games that dont have heart and just chase the money is something thats really annoyed me for awhile, its gotten to the point where a vast majority of games i play are indie games cause most AAA games just dont have any heart anymore. Even if i dont like a game after playing it if i can tell the devs were passionate about it i have a very hard time hating it, but the games that are unapologetically bad and lack any passion just upset me.

[@YourPalRal]

Whenever I see you reblog something on tumblr that is clearly from you name searching yourself, I get a little chuckle.

[@vivivista8142]

As someone that grew up playing Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons and Rune Factory games since the early 2000s, all hearing "SDV ripoff" does for me is make me feel old. 😅

[@Hasiruh]

I feel like often times the people complaining the most are the ones that really ONLY play Stardew exclusively. Theres nothing wrong with that however it often blinds them to the systems other farming sims had before stardew. I grew up with the Harvest Moon series, I have played countless entries and there was a HUGE roster of ideas and systems that they had. Some fumbled in execution but the over all baseline ideas were there. And I see some of these old ideas that by now are over 10 years old in newer farming sims like fields of mistria. Using a Windmill to make Flour isn't something that ONLY stardew did, it's not even something stardew started. In Harvest moon The Grand Bazar you pretty much only use windmills to get new items. In Harvest Moon Animal Parade theres both a wind and a watermill where you can mill different things to get new items and make flour. That game is well above 10 years old now. From the Glasshouse (first I've seen something like this be implimented was Harvest Moon Islands of Happiness) to the Bundles (a lot of Harvest Moon series have you collecting items for story beat moments, the Rainbows from Harvest Moon Tree of Tranquility is the first example coming to mind) This is nothing new, it never has been anything new but if you only base your "standard" for what a farming sim is on one singular entry of an entire genre you cannot help but compare because you think that's the game that did it first (which is false) or was the first that did it well (which I'd also disagree with, the windmills in stardew aren't very utilized) I could go into detail and write a whole essay of what farming game had what system and which ones utilized it best but the end of it would be that stardew wasn't on the top doing all of them the best. Stardew is dear to me as well I absolutely love it to bits however I love HM entries that I have played and grown up with just as much. Theres no contest of which one is better. They each bring something new and unique to the table that the other did not. I enjoy Fields of Mistria more in the NPC aspect, especially the bachelors and bachelorettes, I just simply like their design more and their dialogue feels more richer than the one in stardew (at least in my opinion) Stop trying to look for the best farming sim tm and try to view and enjoy a game as it stands alone. I still play the SNES version of Harvest Moon sometimes, theres a charm in simplicity as well that I and many others cannot deny.

[@madamfuturepresident1143]

Can we get a list of every game you showed in this video in the comments or description? I'm interested in checking them out!

[@DigiDestined45]

I'm sorry I hope I just misheard. But Ryza 3 is being lumped in as a cash in on the popularity of farming games? The Atelier games have been around for decads, nearly as long as Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons. But on top of that Gust, the developers of the Atelier series has stated they pump out their series as much as they can because before Ryza 1, they were at risk of going under without the niche sales of the series.

[@Kogami]

1:51 I still see people not in the know calling *Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons itself* "looks like a Stardew ripoff", especially when they announced new entries in a Nintendo Direct or smth 😭

[@Lillyluri]

Personally I always thought it's a good joke. But I guess there may be people repeating it without understanding it. 😂

[@huntressartemis3379]

Yay!!!!! A Salmence video on my birthday.🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@Niaru.m]

Pfft, I felt like Stardew is a ripoff of Harvest Moon when it first came out. In time i found that it has some original ideas and solutions, but the bare bones of it is the same as Harvest Moon.

[@notruminari5668]

We live in the age where we can call harvestmoon a ripoff of both harvestmoon and stardew valley

[@logixindie]

I used to think "ripoff" is a neutral term of something is copying something else. So I would call a game ripoff while saying it is a better version.

[@saffronnie3969]

I lost it at 1:00 when you showed three of my fave farming/cozy games!!!!!! Roots of Pacha is SOOO underrated! And Fields of Mistria isn't even finished and probably already a fave of mine. Stardew Valley is simply a classic. And I say this before I finish the vid btw, but, Stardew simply kicked off the farming/cozy game genre. I wonder why it's so hard for people to understand that?

[@liamnelson9691]

It would be really funny if Haunted Chocolatier comes out and people just gonna call it a Stardew Valley clone.

[@shreyaspamaraju262]

"Well no shit sherlock"

[@indiegamerred553]

Comparing Atelier to Stardew Valley is like comparing Halo to Fallout. These games are two very different games in how they are played and what your goal is in them. Stardew Valley is a game about a dirt farmer becoming the richest man alive while, Atelier is about a alchemist committing war crimes against the local wildlife and harvesting their organs to commit more war crimes. They are not the same.

[@zeldaadlez9068]

nah it doesnt have enough platforming and exploration to be called Neigborvania. I'll stick with Farming Game because farming seems to be the main focus.

[@beauxlawrenson5220]

I used to be obsessed with stardew valley and started modding it, then I discovered coral island and everything I was modding into stardew was base game, all the quality of life improvements like seeings townsfolk on the map, the better more detailed decorating. The game is so similar but became my favourite because of what it added to it. Now my favourite, harvest moon ds was my first game in the genre and finding stardew valley added everything I wanted from the game. Coral island was the next progression from that to me, however I do miss the sprite art style