Why are so many High-End Raiding Guilds Quitting?

[@BigMuskachini]

Because Blizzard feels losing to RNG is better than losing due to something you as a guild can control

[@Jstandshere]

Bk Big Fish yep, the blue post said that exactly. If Tommy keeps fucking up at 1% then you're supposed to be more tolerant. Poor Tommy! But if you lose to a boss because your RnG gear didn't proc that's okay. .........

[@Incensement]

And that again tells me they should finally just fire the fucking lead designers. Because those guys obviously live in a fantasy world and have no grasp of what is actually going on with their game.

[@polihayse]

Making the game difficult discriminates against bad players! They didn't choose to suck at the game.

[@draves8953]

polihayse RNG does not make the game difficult, just tedious.

[@polihayse]

Draves I'm joking. I was a raider in SNF and I'm ticked off by the decisions that Blizzard has made this expasion. RNG has become the standard and it is just this massive equalizer that tries to remove skill from the equation. It doesn't matter how much effort you put in because any random guy with bis legendaries will match you. Just like in mario kart how you can be 20 seconds ahead and then get fucked over by RNG with blue shells and come in last. It appeals to casual players and not players who are the slightest bit competitive. Blizzard is trying to attract the super flakey non-loyal facebook gamer and they don't give a shit about the people who have dedicated the most time to their game because they think that portion of their audience is addict d anyway so why try?

[@kalle417]

I think it comes down to a few things. 1. Spamming mythic+ 2. Raids aren't rewarding anymore because of the first reason I listed 3. To many grinds. Artifact power, BiS, best legos etc. 4. RNGforging is fucking gay Everything just feels repetitive and unrewarding. Getting a good dps legendary is more of a moment of relief than a moment of joy. Getting artifact power capped makes you sigh of relief instead of feeling happy/proud after a long grind. I really want to appreciate legion for what it is but it's impossible. I haven't nearly as many moments of joy in legion compared to other expansions.

[@SkritchB]

Akaal yep been having tension and feeling usless this whole expac, then i get a bis and I could only think "finally i wont be usless" instead of being happy

[@misskobeyoshi2500]

Even the content drought in Wod last year felt more alive

[@monkpawfire]

nah thats overeacting

[@kalle417]

ZeroPopulation ye ofc, but they'll still farm mythic+ for non-set pieces to min/max dps/hps

[@misskobeyoshi2500]

ZeroPopulation The problem within the causal community is who is going to give a shit when you share it with friends

[@cvkpaper]

"they do it for free" world first in a fucking nutshell

[@Cinnamon1080]

cvk paper Exactly. It's a completely pointless endeavour. It's never been a big thing and has been shrinking for years.

[@synthiaify]

it was more rewarding back in the days. Ensidia etc. made a lot more money with sponsorships, liveevents etc. than now,

[@mrpreston2273]

cvk paper end of the day it's a game haha!

[@chasey1978]

Yes and people stop when they finally realize how dumb it is to take it so seriously. That realization comes in different forms for different people. Losing sleep and missing work, losing time spent with family, gaining weight, realizing you could have been working on real life skills and maybe gotten a raise at work instead of playing wow so much.

[@mightyx]

TItanforging and legendaries killed them more than anything else

[@SkritchB]

Boon Kiu Yip yep getting a gear back in the day, you now had it, if you dont get specific piece titanforged + socket its not an upgrade even if you run the hardest difficulty, is what killed legion but Also kept it alive cause people cannot complete their character this week, well maybe next week a titanforged drops, and then they just burn out

[@K.Ronaldo94]

this, lets also add random gemslots

[@strangedevice2547]

They should make it so you need a whole set of speed gear in order to kill a boss just to add more to the game

[@MrBraffZachlin]

no, making alts impossible to keep releveant because of those things plus artifact power system has nailed shut what garrisons and class halls started

[@karlous1]

alts and also secondary specs, like i main assass on my rogue, i'd liek to use outlaw for mythics+ but there no way that spec can compete with my 52 traits main weapon which im still shoveling ap in to reach max

[@AZ-do6qr]

The moment you're playing WoW in order to get something out of it, is the moment you've stopped playing for the fun of it and you know it's headed down the drain. In the early stages of WoW the grind in and of itself felt rewarding, you could be grinding for hours to level up your mining or herbalism in WotLK or Cata and it still wouldn't feel as a grind. Right now the amounts and durations of grinding in order to stay competitive and not to fall behind (sometimes unrewarded), is so overly absurd, it's inevitable most players have become consciously aware of it. And with that you start thinking and realizing what other things you could have done with your time, that would have felt more rewarding to you. The most important things of a reward in WoW are the feelings and memories associated with it, rather than the merit it holds. Right now however. the merits are high, but the feelings are low. Cx

[@Jaigarful]

Games aren't about fun anymore. They are about compelling players to play. This was one of the intents behind an achievement system. People like having those systems and they use them to reel people in. You notice how anytime you get an upgrade in-game, its like a slot machine? It plays a "YOU WON" sound and flashes a bit? You notice how your bonus rolls actually look like a slot machine when you use it? All these things are intentional, and they prey on the same things that get people hooked to gambling.

[@misskobeyoshi2500]

Casuals and Asmongold can't understand this and act like the game isn't that bad...... must be nice using your guild as a reason to continue playing.

[@misskobeyoshi2500]

The Bugs bunny

[@TheJollyMisanthrope]

That's the problem with the mindset of professional gaming. Fuck the game, it's all about money and attention.

[@TheJollyMisanthrope]

They need to cut out as much RNG based content, that revolves around gearing, as is humanly possible. Leave the RNG to mount drops and other things that are a perk to playing the content. RPG's were always about completing "x" task to get "y" item. Not complete "x" task, roll the dice, and get "xyz" item, depending on the dice roll. You should be going into a raid knowing what you will get if the item drops, not hoping you get the best version of that item. The problem is when Blizz introduces things like legendaries, and doesn't seem to realize the consequences it will have for hardcore gamers (of which I myself am not) who are getting the game the most press in the gaming world, it makes you wonder if they have the first clue about what they are doing. Legendaries were poorly thought out from day one and should have never been included. This is coming from someone who has 21 of them across all his characters.

[@Phailox]

Its funny how a game director can sit in an interview, and casually say that the game isnt meant to be played 80hrs a week. Meanwhile a lot of top guilds are quitting the wf race, because thats exactly what is required of them. Simply shows how little the wow developers understand the game they are making. Feelsbatman

[@liangdar9675]

"The game is not meant to be played 80+ hours a week" - Balances nighthold around having maxed out artifact weapons, BiS legys and having the right setup. Because fuck logic.

[@SkritchB]

liang dar yep even for heroic people need 900+ for a pug simply because boss mechanics are so punishing, and without atleast titanforged from mythic +, you are not Killing hc Bosses in pugs anytime soon

[@nikolastojanovic5959]

liang dar Stop talking out of your ass mobile.twitter.com/WatcherDev/status/835156538650066945

[@turost3034]

+zXTheFoxXz Yes! Great, make it hard. Make the boss mechanics punishing. Make it hard to do with a random group, awesome. I want raids to be difficult and punishing so actually accomplishing something aka killing bosses feels rewarding and comes with a sense of accomplishment. Why are you complaining that Heroic bosses are hard to kill? That's the way it should be! I'd go as far as to say people with your mentality is contributing to what many would call the casualization of the game.

[@HuorNolatari]

actually i think that game director is right. It's the players that choose to be first whatever and play shitload to get their 'merit', none forced them to do this.

[@lmarcelus]

I'm with Ion on this. Most of this guilds are falling apart because stupid raid leaders and guild administrators demanding players have 5 geared alts and 80 hours/week of farming. Its just stupid. Method guild leader demands that the tanks have ALL TANK SPECS geared and ready to go at any time. Of course AP farming played a huge part on this, but it can be bypassed. (And its going to be fixed in 7.2, both AP and Legendary)

[@xSegami]

You're also ignoring the fact that the game plays this way based on how they've designed this expansion.

[@chipz662]

Negative, it is the top end player's fault for thinking that they need to have 5 toons max ap/gear for it. And crying about not getting enough attention over a video game, is bullshit.

[@larsm3336]

The players are fully aware of this when they signed up, the difference now is the fact that you have a huge rng system in gearing, legendaries and you still have to farm an insain amount of ap. The reason those reqiuerments are a thing, is because it is needed to stay competitive. You will not compete in the world first race without putting in the work.

[@BigMuskachini]

They designed the fucking game this way, dont hate the player hate the game.

[@larsm3336]

they are not crying, they are saying "This is not the game i fell in love with and the time investment to stay at the top is something i am not willing to invest" so they quit, simple as that.

[@cstu6864]

"Remember to take all things in moderation (even World of Warcraft!)" -WoW Loading Screen

[@TheMa0s]

Danksmoke Bong you know there is a way to fix it luk

[@cstu6864]

did you ever think to search youtube for a fix? i searched yesterday and now loading screens last a max of 15 seconds.

[@BarryMcCockiner-pk9mv]

check m8

[@gabycounter]

wow feel like a free to play game with this stupid grind

[@sihTdaeRtnaCuoY]

And pay to win...

[@neicot]

Pay to farm ap*

[@jamessalvatore7054]

Dont compare this disaster here with Free to Play. What Wow is atm is just plain bad. F2P games like say SWTOR got legit good gameplay. Quest design, RPG, combat system, zone downscaling, etc etc.

[@stargleamvids]

+James Salvatore I don't know about recently, but on lauch SWtOR had none of that. A lot of their classes specs were ripped off from WoW and renamed and re-skinned. The PvP was inbalanced as hell and there was no PvE content to speak of. Maybe it is better now, but SWtOR was worse, because that was during its' pay to play time.

[@NamesAreForNerds]

James Salvatore legion really isnt bad at all. unless maybe youre a world first raider or a noob. if youre not you really dont have much of a reason to complain.

[@empmagiccamera2591]

Title Answer: They are tired of the grind to stay relevant in Legion, it's already been said by the members of those guilds. Pay attention.

[@Lisuna0]

I was going to type an entire paragraph, but then i realised i don't give a shit about world first raiders. Nobody is telling these people to go and be the first to kill a boss.

[@whipslash1132]

Actually thinking of quitting myself before the grind gets worse and hits infinite in 7.2 how the fuck is that good or fun for anyone? This fucking casualization of everything for maxed profit is gonna end the world and everything we love.

[@lawlestest]

i resubbed a few days ago (for the 3rd month in a row ,ever) and i'm already regretting it .. Barely have the willpower to logon to my main, and when i do, i just check my WQ's, get bored, run my daily HC for the AP token, and do LFR during the resets (+emissary boxes daily), get disappointed, and logoff.

[@whipslash1132]

Detective John Kimble Fucking /clap at your intelligence.. When Vanilla came out it was for gamers, not elites, not noobs, just people. The game decided how far your skill and intelligence would take you and if you didn't have a brain you could barely get past BWL. Now take a look at todays mess where they are trying to appeal to both parties, we end up with one half maxing all traits but at the cost of ridicilously high gametime and the other basically getting them for free next expansion. I wanna play like iv'e always done for 10+ years, taking time off from work for new content, gearing up and then chill with raids 2-3 days a week until next expansion, not having to do mythic+ all the time between raids, it's exhausting, boring, monotonous. You see the problem yet detective? WoW has always been about ups and downs when there is much to do and other times there aren't. Now there ALWAYS is but it's not worth the effort and people are starting to realize it.

[@DreadPages]

Whipslash BWL didnt take any braincells to kill. People were just shitty in vanilla and resources to get better were much worse than they are now.

[@whipslash1132]

DreadPages Well, both. AQ and Nax was the real nightmarefuel.

[@Ecliptor.]

vanilla was fucking shit lmao you would have a raid of 40 man where at least 20 were below average players, and 5 people doing nothing or being gigashit

[@revjirhcs]

I thought the WotlK system where you would get 10 wipes a week and going up every week toward 25 was a pretty good system to stop ppl from burn-out.Also the skill level was what mattered not the time spend. And ofc to have 4 difficulty levels of the same content also dont help alot with burn outs. So in my opinion blizzard should take another look at WotlK raiding and consider it because in my opinion it was a better system if they only had 25 or 10m back in those days.

[@MeNotyouxD]

Magtheridon Apocalypce The weekly pull cap was what really started split-raiding. People would raid on their alts to learn the fight for their mains. This is the reason Blizzard removed it. If we had a pull cap today, the grind would be even more insane, as you'd need up to 11 as close geared to your main to do practise pulls with. It would also kill off more semi-hardcore guilds, as soon as the guild reaches the pull cap, all raids for the week is cancelled. Which leads to people getting frustrated and leaving guilds constantly, ruining any chance to build up a good progression guild..

[@dzlok]

There was hardmode in wotlk just wasnt selected by a menu 3 drake sartharian leaving towers up on flame leviathin ect

[@dark666105]

Maybe if they didnt balance Mythic around having a completely full artifact and the RNG of the leggo system.

[@larsm3336]

Maybe make paragon points not function in raiding for the first 2 months of the content and then nerf the content by making them function later on.

[@dark666105]

Or just not make them function in raids at all, like they dont in pvp.

[@vexi6231]

dark666105 well thats bullshit why would you even want them. the problem is the rng and the ap grind those are the only problems

[@qaantum]

I think you should look that up last 3 bosses(mythic) were tuned for 54 because of people grinding the shit out before the emerald nightmare and killing it within a day

[@marxman6896]

Legion is like combining all of the worst parts of vanilla (grind grind grind grind, poor class design) with all of the worst parts of WoD raiding (RNG loot, split runs). The content is great, but the systems in place around that content are catastrophically terrible. Legendaries, AP farming, and titanforging are all absolutely awful systems.

[@Klyptic]

I really miss when WoW was good, everyone played it. The game had a community and you never wanted to log off. Now look at the game. Really sad to see where the game has come. You know what's ironic? I remember every time a new MMO came out everyone said "ooh this is the one that'll end WoW", guess what, Blizzard killed WoW, not some other awesome MMO.

[@Halikarz31]

Pretty dramatic bud. A shit ton of people still play, will continue to play, and most of the people who are quitting or have quit will come back, as has happened since always. WoW is still good for a lot of people, there is still a community, and people who play/pay don't want to just log out, else they would have unsubcribed. I don't doubt you have reasons to dislike WoW, but you cannot project your opinion and personal experience as if it represents the game/community as a whole. Maybe it's just time for you personally to move on to something else.

[@mrgoob76]

Klyptic i could have told you that back in 2007

[@kswiss89]

Klyptic I'm with you, played since release raided high end raids, competitively pvped, was great, got legion, got to max then just never logged on again, maybe it's just me but the game definitely lost its magic and sense of wonder

[@MacwinsTV]

There are many people coming back and going . Life goes on & Yes wow is still live .

[@smellyfish36]

I think the player base killed wow.

[@insaneapples1559]

I just think the high end raiders are getting older and moving onto new stages in their lives, and once a couple healers decide to leave your raid balance goes to shit.

[@SkritchB]

insaneapples that wasnt a problem before, because if you Went into a raid and got the item you looked for, you now had it, in legion you have 20 ilvls that could be added to the gear, EVEN at the hardest difficulty, with socket/ leech, that its now rng based to be competetive, and its no longer about skills so if ur healer leaves, you simply cannot even get a replacement, because the amount of gear he would need for a world first race with the 10-20% increase from the best possible gear, with everything combined i just think people collapse, and it all became a problem with ilvl + socket

[@irllcd13]

+zXTheFoxXz Agreed, titanforging is a terrible idea. I already fight RNG to get loot, and to get the right loot, it should not ALSO determine how good that loot is.

[@MrKillswitch88]

I am really glad that I did not come back, may as well have two or three jobs and still have more time for other things than this expansion.

[@boots911]

it seems like this has happened every expac sine cata first few months of the expansion: "wow there's so much to do this expac is amazing, wow has made a comeback" middle of the expac: "this game is dead, there's nothing to do, too grindy, content is pointless, it's too easy"

[@Warriorfall]

last time i was this early legendaries weren't a meme

[@KsanUwU]

Warriorfall cata?

[@misskobeyoshi2500]

Cata doesn't count m8

[@archvaldor]

Another problem with offering prize money is that it would almost certainly end up in court as whenever Blizzard have world firsts for something the winners often use some kind of grey creative use of game mechanics/exploit and get stripped of the award/reinstated. The Lich King and MOP first to 90 world firsts are good examples of this-they were dramas that were enough of a train wreck even without money being involved.

[@themetalone7739]

These people are making a conscious decision to do the things that are burning them out. Just like Ion Hazzikostas said, AP (for example) is not meant to be something that you turn into a "I must max this out" goal. I understand the mentality that leads these people to play it that way (the mindset of, everyone having maxed out AP could be the difference between a 3% wipe, and a kill), but it's totally up to each player how they want to play the game. These people complaining about the work they have to do is exactly as ridiculous as people who play 1 hour a week complaining that they aren't making any real progress. If you don't like it, change your behavior and stop complaining. The issue is that a lot of these people are taking the "all or nothing" approach. Either they put in the massive amount of work it takes to be in a top guild, or they totally quit the game. There's a ton of middle ground between those two points. If you're obsessed with getting a world first kill ("obsessed" is the other word I can think of to describe people who put themselves through this, for virtually 0 real reward), then that obsession is going to take you to places you may very well not want to go.

[@misskobeyoshi2500]

IT ain't burning out!! Nobody talks in chat!! Unless if you're on the top 4 servers that are full. You won't be seeing shit. Why trade when you can get it yourself!! Why bother when you can do it yourself!! Not to mention even if you do get the best of the best like Asmongold NOBODY WILL GIVE A SHIT!! His guild is the only reason he even continues this game!! Get rid of the guild and he is tired of the same bullshit!!

[@sej120]

Dead Battery i would say the the fact that a great amount of his livelyhood and the general fate of what happens to most wow yotubers when they do none wow content has decent part to do with it to but that doesnt really matter games dead everyone should movw onto ffxiv anyways since thw only othwr decent mmo near even what legion is.

[@monkeyking9863]

Dead Battery my server is empty especially since i play ally on a horde server and people talk all the time in chat, so stop making shit up and grow up

[@Ezek86]

I havent really liked WoW since dragonsoul, and only really check the game out for a couple of months every expansion. I cant believe this game still has so many players.

[@WeallAreAdults]

same but i'm on the hype train again since classic was announced! I hate retail and it sucks hard, but its still better then alot of games out there in the genre.. i'll be able to play for a year(ish) till it comes out

[@whipslash1132]

Cause we pay to work for this whatever it is, isn't a game anymore i can tell you that. Making something for everybody never works

[@Gh0stBustaz11]

Why are so many High-End Raiding Guilds Quitting? Well, its because they're just tired of the game, this happens every expansion, nothing new. Old guilds fall, new guilds rise, thats the beauty of an MMO, its someone elses turn to get world firsts.

[@DardyGamer]

ill save you the time spent watching with a TL;DR: people are quitting because the game is shit

[@Pixmoo]

I agree

[@ichhabdochkeeahnung]

I loved Firelands and the daily zoe as well.

[@LawrenceDerp]

no, TLDR is people are quitting because there's no external rewards for hardcore raiding

[@rubyreyaspeedy]

Disfigured you're an unhappy boy today, huh? Did something bad happen at school?

[@Omegadarkdrake]

Cata pvp was arguably the worst time for pvp in wow. Blizzard had no idea what to do with certain classes, just look at the changelog for paladins throught the expansion. Tol barad was an absolutel mess too.

[@ScrewYoou]

2:19 How can you 'just take a couple of weeks off of work and go back to work after progression is over'?

[@Golikol369258]

tbh. currently im not sure wether im playing a gambling game or an mmorpg. legendarys, titanforge warfoge stuff, proccs of specific skills. all that stuff looks more like a gamble.

[@SkritchB]

Shinrak and a gamble you cant win, atleast before, if something dropped you had a chance to roll for it, now if something really Good drops, that Guy keeps it, while this Can be Good in one way, not just hanging out a poor guys using them and tunnel all gear to 1 Guy, its very bad because now bad performance Can get a 925 while the ones who carried cannot even get a chance to roll for it

[@misskobeyoshi2500]

zXTheFoxXz so your ilvl 915? If not STFU and continue gambling

[@sej120]

zXTheFoxXz that kinda sounds like you only run with pugs and not guild groups which is understandable that what moat people only have time for unless your talking about lfr which when it qasnt some form of personal loot had people bringinf friwnda with them to ninja gear in dragon soul lfr shit i remeber how many pug groups were complaing 1 expansion ago about people ninjaing items in pugs with masterloot.

[@Cblazed]

thats how they keep the addicts going

[@misskobeyoshi2500]

Casual patch = nicotine XL

[@Trazynn]

The definition of 'hardcore' has also changed. In older expansions it took creativity and intelligence to find shortcuts in the progress necessary to clear content. Not just for the individual player but also for the guilds themselves. Being a world-first had more prestige back then than it has now. Guilds also finished contents within days or weeks, not within hours of each other. All of that gave hardcore raiding more prestige than it does not. Rather than planning and scheming your way ahead of others all Legion offers is a singular grind that all players participated in. Being a world first only means your guild ran the threadmill a bit faster than the rest.

[@samymasta]

2:26 Who the FUCK,takes WEEKS off from work to play a game?What the actual fuck.Unless you're working at mc-d.

[@Meddyuwu]

The same reason people take weeks off to go to the beach. Its their vacation.

[@samymasta]

I doubt people will literally go,ask their boss 2 weeks prior and take their precious vacation solely on the intent of playing a video game 6 hours a day,at night,everyday for a week.You basically take vactions for a second job that doesn't pay. Again,comes back to how constructive you are with your time. Don't get me wrong,I play this shit too,but I won't ever say no to earn fucking 1200$ to just go play intense for a week,most people won't be playing like you will anyways because they have jobs,and THEY,aren't taking fucking vacations for wow. Oh,and you'll fall behind anyways 2 weeks after that.

[@loladin123]

In many parts of the world your vacation is paid for, for up to 4 weeks. So they aren't missing out on money unless you meant people should be having another job during their vacation for double salary?

[@SkritchB]

To stay in a high end guild, 9-5 Jobs are fine really, the problem comes in when a new expansion releases, and everyone is on ground 0, you need every single hour a day to grind gear, and since they Enjoy doing it they take their varations for it

[@asmongold1341]

Yeah they are taking vacations for WoW, that's how many mid to high-end salaried positions work, you can take vacations when you want to.

[@IAMOGGLOL]

The titanforged thingy is pretty easy to fix imo. They just need to cap it. For example if you re doing normal the highest it can titanforge is up to HC ilvl or 5 under. And if you do HC the ilvl will be the same case there, up to Mythic and so on. Then those who put in alot of time doing mythic raiding will still have that amazing gear that some people cant get.

[@pravdavitezi588]

"You think you do but you don't" Only way to fix this shitty game is to give us OFFICIAL Legacy Servers let Diablo3: Legion die.

[@drfrodo]

Well, if they just do a similar format to blizzcon arena's but with a raidteam size, it could theoretically work. Before a raid is launched, they get a time window to put together a 10 man team, with 1 or 2 players to switch, sign your team up on battle.net. Content is launched, players monitored by GM's, prize money is spit by blizz and divided accordingly to accounts listed. Blizz contacts them through some secure means to deliver rewards.

[@brimstonevalar6053]

No need to make a video of 14 min to answer a simple question...why are so many High End Raiding Guilds Quitting ? because the game is SHIT.

[@maxuli21]

Is your hobby to answer people for days with autistic comments? :D

[@leftright2]

Disfigured where the hell does elysium even come into this are you stupidly lost?

[@Klyptic]

Disfigured even if he does play on Elysium guess what, Vanilla was actually fucking good, so I'd rather play vanilla for 30$ a month instead of legion for free, legion is dog shit.

[@LegaltTO]

Brimstone Valar So true. WoW died after MoP tbh... As someone who's played since vanilla, I never thought I'd say that haha. When I reflect back, MoP was my most played expansion other than WOTLK. Blizz should just put the nail in the coffin and start developing a new MMO. As good as WoW is/was, the game is just too old now, and I think that's also a big part of the hate... at least for me. Blizz is just milking the shit out of WoW as much as they can smh... All these resources could be put to better use.

[@Telarius]

LegaltTO They just keep trying new stupid things

[@Kthuluu66]

I was taking a break form wow got back beginning of February and feel so behind, I've come back a few months after a release and never felt this left in the dust. There is so much grind. Order hall resources, and the artifact weapons.

[@N7Spectre]

Should have just started your video at 10 minutes. People always say look at all these people leaving this old game, it must be getting worse. Shits just getting old, and so are the players. WoW will never be an E-sport either, it has always been and will always be a casual game. If you feel like your working so hard that you need to be compensated for playing this game then you might as well find something else to do.

[@plackiplicki3531]

James Curtis WoW isn't getting old, which is proved by the recent success of Vanilla private servers. There is definitely a problem with the enjoyability of the game ATM.

[@RaZhOdKaaaa]

Placki Plicki I wouldn't call a couple of thousand players a success, to be honest

[@marxman6896]

WoW and it's playerbase are aging, but that has nothing to do with why Legion is killing off the hardcore playerbase. The soul-crushing AP grind and RNG bullshit are what is killing off the playerbase.

[@DreadPages]

Placki Plicki Legacy servers are free and still just a fraction of the legit game. So no, the surge is tiny.

[@marxman6896]

Using the "free" argument against private servers is pretty damn stupid. A) People are afraid of them because they can be shut down at any moment. B) Word of mouth is the only advertising they get. C) Most people want to play the newest version of the game, even if it isn't as good (subjective). D) Vanilla/TBC aren't for everyone.

[@finnersz]

I mythic raid and never felt the pressure to mindlessly grind. I passively picked up AP from dailies, raids, a handful of m+ per week etc. and I reached 54 not long ago. I understand for bleeding edge guilds this isn't enough but that's so few people and I highly doubt all these complainers are at that level.

[@grunto321123]

Vanilla wow was the biggest grind known to man yet nobody is complaining

[@truthseeker508]

Nostalgia

[@dinguuuus]

Theres shitfest pointless grind. Then theres fun grinding.

[@Ravernoob]

the split raiding start in cata around firelands where people farmed the legendary staff for several mains at a time

[@stoi_]

Sup ya'll, it's me, it's ya boy Assmongold. And today I wanted to turn a 90 second conversation into a 14minute video because I think it's important to cash in on what little is left of WoW's popularity before the collapse. Turns out the Devs didn't listen to how much people hate RNG, partly because of sellouts like me assuring people it's not that bad. Whoops, my bad. Gotta get that ad revenue though boiz. Oh well, the 90s it took to cover this simple topic is up. Please like and subscribe.

[@SkritchB]

Chris G if its so easy, why dont you start making videos yourself instead of critisizing other peoples succes in what they do?

[@stoi_]

zXTheFoxXz Oh, I would never. I'm afraid I'm completely outclassed in the "Get a bunch of retards to defend me in the comments" department. Also, I have a and 8 to 5 that kind of gets in the way of convincing children to give me money via watching ads as I perform autofellatio.

[@buliwyfZrage]

And WoW was never as shit as now, you make me laugh too. Lets sum it up quick what the Game offers in a good way: Warcraft Lore Decent looking Raids and Zones and Cutscenes Thats about it right now. Lets sum up what it does terrible: Class Design or so called Class "Fantasy" Class Balance PvP PvE Gearing Artifacts Talents Honor Talents which are just a revamp of old spells made to talents rofl RNG legendaries from which are just shit while others are far too strong

[@MrPFMneto]

Chris Gemoules you are absolutely right!! I feel this way with 70-80% of this youtuber content. I like his guides though.

[@goldengun180]

Hello, I apologize for the off topic nature of this comment -- but I've gotta ask, what addon are you using to display pets 4/4 as well as the achievements that you need to do (0:36)

[@ShiyoKozuki]

Legion is honestly the worst "MMORPG" I've ever played. MMORPG in quotes because quite frankly, I don't consider this game a MMO or a RPG. It's an action adventure game with a lobby. There is no RPG and no MMO aspects in sight, the game is the furthest it can be from a MMORPG as humanly possible. The developers working on this game are something I expect from a low tier low budget indie team, not a multi-billion dollar company that brought me Diablo2: LoD, Starcraft1: Brood wars, and Warcraft: The Frozen Throne. Blizzard needs to clean up their developer roster and finally pretty much everyone in charge if they want their game to actually be good again.

[@Halikarz31]

Out of pure curiosity, if you have the time, explain exactly what Legion has or doesn't have, that makes you think it's neither MMO or RPG. I have no idea how this statement can be believed, so i'm genuinely curious.

[@palmeer]

I would also like to hear

[@badassoverlordzetta]

I smell a lot of nostalgia. Those games you mention were great then, and people have moved on. WoW was great then, and it too will move on, at least for the players who grew up with it... New players fill the void, perspectives change, and so things move on.

[@jamesnetherian4981]

@Halikarz31 shhh... don't ask questions this entitled shit can't answer because... duh... you have to understand that people with absolute ZEEEROOOOO brain and ZERO game developement knowledge are talking. people who are completely rotting away mentally are talking about a topic they wether play or understand. Just leave the manga doll. Ignore her.

[@cliffordkinney6307]

I must agree with you, My personal reasons to the decline is mainly AP which takes a long time to get for your legendary. and that doesn't account for alts or even secondary secondaries like holy/shadow

[@mikepajicpaulaszman1780]

TL:DW; Game fucking sucks

[@ahlund88]

started in dragon soul, a big "scandal" was when paragon used a glitch where as long as they boosted 1 person at a time, the group got full loot even though the whole raid was lootbanned

[@gary6631]

I'm really glad they're all quitting. The elitism that is mythic raiders is hurting wows community by making everyone either become tryhards or be forgotten!

[@ChumblesMumbles]

It certainly does seem like some of the progression mechanics they built into Legion would make the tricks that are common among top end progression guilds much more difficult to pull off. Getting multiple alts kept up at top-end gear and upgraded artifact is just a helluvalot harder now than it had been previously. Now it's true that top-end guilds play the game in a very different way than the normal player, but as long as someone is doing it that way, then someone is getting the world first.

[@MrExorius]

i am the only one that like grinding ?

[@lioxle5350]

From my perspective as a casual heroic raider: "Hardcore" always is a relational thing and therefore the group of hardcore players are players who commit strongly to a game. With Legion however, the time to cap your character in the sense that at a certain point your gear can only improve through raids is nearly impossible to reach unless you commit your life to it. And at this point which also has affected guilds at all levels of play the "hardcore" scene needs to restructure itself. The guys who go for world first have two options: Option 1 is that you play in a guild where you accept that reaching the capped character is no longer possible if you commit a REASONABLE amount of time and you play with people who commit this set amount of time and then run with what you get. Option 2 is that you basically sacrifice a year and a half of your life (and health) and then you have to find around 19 other people who are willing to do that also. What I am wondering about is if there cannot be more ... effective ways to play the game. When I am talking about effective ways I am talking about something like psychological and physiological effects which come into play. Obviously, if you farm AP like a madman your characters (especially the mains) will currently dish quite more damage in theory. On the other hand, the gameplay itself requires a lot of concentration to execute it "perfectly" and I wonder who can do that if they basically play 15-18 hours a day because doing that may be manageable for a short amount of time but you will feel the effects, especially if you live on fast food, quite clearly and I would like to know how many wipes you really get from your characters being "not capped" in comparison to people losing focus and doing silly mistakes. Also a short take on the AP farming thing: I think I read a Blizzard statement about legendary luck-algorithm past 4 received legendaries where they said that they simply did not expect people to grind countless hours to get the most optimal set. One can discuss about whether this was a reasonable assumption or not but what I can't get into my head is that some people actually feel the need to beat the game so badly that they really farm like this. Blizzard created systems in Legion which basically make it nearly impossible to cap your characters outside of raids and they assumed "Okay, now people never stand around in cities anymore" (which is true and I love this). But what PLAYERS have to recognize that, like in real life, this cap option does not really exist anymore. Now, "hardcore" players, following the patterns they have used for years, failed to recognize this in my opinion. They were, sorry, so stupid that they basically gave up their life for months to farm. And therefore, the hardcore scene is self-destructing right now because of these ridiculous high standards they set for themselves for raiding in Legion.

[@alecmagician]

lul people still play this game?

[@noobsaibot7073]

Not anymore, atleast now, it is really going down for WoW, Sad but true.

[@Ryuzaki365]

I think one of the things they should've changed is how far they can reach with their artifact weapon (ap-wise). Instead of having a cap of level 54 artifact then it should be much lower so people wouldn't need to endlessly grind it. A much more fitting level would be 44, which is 10% dmg increase for dps specs. This would also result in spending more time and funnel more ap into your other specs and having people be more diverse. Right now theres too little people with tank spec in dungeon finder (opinion) and i think it is due to the fact that people simply dont want to tank when they dont have that extra dmg and health from traits. So if the cap was lower, then people could funnel more ap into other specs like protection warrior if you main arms.

[@kevinpedersen5290]

So asmongold, people are quitting because they can't make money off of wow? :P That sounds a bit deluded, don't you think?

[@christopherl.1072]

Kevin Pedersen more as: because they need to live from something, and they can't make a living from wow.

[@jamesnetherian4981]

no he says streamers, top guilds, etc. who need sponsors, earn money with it. not just casuals. you know it's not that wow is bad. it's not. people just like to complain because stupid. it's just that WoW is old and still an MMORPG whereas MMOs are out of date. The new way to go is mobile games like hearthstone or MOBAs. FPS are timeless. Competition is key to gaming nowadays. WoW has arenas, but that's too weak for esports.

[@GuildMasterDeathNote]

I think you are 100% right, and I would add because the #1 complaint about W.O.D. expansion was lack of content. Blizzard did as it always does over reacted and gave us way to much content, to a point of over load.

[@Shatamx]

Yea I've definitely cut my time from 4-6 hours a day to 1-2. My guild started mythic nighthold. We are trying to recruit two more tanks because other guild members are just not playing that much anymore to grind alts. I wish them the best of luck. Especially with 7.2 inc. Also @ 10:00 fucking A man. I still can't believe we put 10-14 hours a day in TBC. I was also on a top guild on my shitty RP server. Still we had server first Archy and Illy beans. I was 20. Now almost ten years later I shudder thinking about doing those heroic 5 mans.

[@ulrik12345678]

i agree 100%.. most of the guilds that disband, are down to the fact, that top raiding isnt the same as it was last expansion...Last expansion you didnt have to grind mythics to upgrade your wep, you gear grinding for next raid or so, could be done in a week max, or by raiding 1-2 days a week clearing the current raid, with alts and mains.. not they have to grind for AP lvls, which is alot more work then "normal" And if only half of the raid put that much work into their accounts, then others, that half will at some point get fed up, and try to find another guild with your mentality

[@wallraven55]

I have been playing a lot of the old school runescape and I think blizzard could take a note. It gives the old school reward feeling while also being nostalgic. it adds new things to the game that feel like they could have been there. But most importantly they have almost every single update voted on by the community with 75% to pass. I love the interaction between the devs and the player base.

[@brandonc8892]

I'm a casual raider and even I got fucking sick of the grind. Being expected to have my 54 traits for NH? Fuck that nonsense.

[@MisterRmk]

I quit because there was way too much rng with legendaries, how much of a grind it became and how bored i got of the island...Such a small continent, too little to do for a hardcore player..

[@jedidiah4004]

As far as split raiding is concerned, it originated in order to counter limited attempts on Hardmode bosses, since then it has become much more of a a mainstream practice in many guilds within the top 100. I think the idea that split raiding is itself the problem with a lot of the burnout at the high end, it is worth discussing that the AP/titanforging/legendary systems were to some degree implement in order to discourage split raiding among other things.

[@jibber-jab]

Extensive split raid farming was always going to be the casualty of Legion some high end guilds might quit but give it some time the expectations for what is a high end raiding player and guild will change and the balance will restore itself, other guilds will rise and the high end game will keep on going just like it always has.

[@BigTimeRoamer]

Hello Asmon, you really hit me hard when you spoke about yourself at 16 and yourself now at 26. I really think that this is the exact reason why people complained about that legacy servers stuff, about how much they enjoyed the game in the past and how they`re not doing it so in the present. Well, this is the reason they don`t do anymore, because they grew old, and responsibilities came, work came, kids came (for most fortunate), and the time and freedom they had to put in their passion shrinked since that moment. I personally was one of them and felt frustrated but in spite of that I kept playing the game and enjoyed it as well, but one day when my anxiety filled the glass and spilled it over, I looked up for a private server of TBC and joined it. I played for a few hours but guess what... I felt disgusted, annoyed that I didn`t have the tools that the current game version provides, unpatient to farm like it was supposed to happen back then, and then it hit me again. We are where we are now, because we demanded it, because we wanted these changes to happen, but we forgot the roots of our requests and now we act like morons, like spoiled brats who didn`t get their cookie after not eathing everything on the plate. Please excuse me If I wasn`t on the same line as the subject was supposed to be and please accept one more apology for my english. I`m neither american or english. Cheers and keep up the good work.

[@seanfitzy2256]

It's the titanforging that grinds my gears . Makes everything seem i get unsatisfactory when it isn't Max titan I remember when I first started I really wanted a pre raid epic from nexus . Priest healing mace . I know it was there , I knew it's stats . I farmed it and it dropped after a little while and I felt awesome . Now I would maybe get it but it might not be titanforged so I would be less happy .

[@jupiterdreamer]

one big things irking me about legion is that i cant play my mains os because i dont have the legendaries for it. 150k plus dps difference between my ms and os with maxed weapons isnt cool.

[@FlammableAirFreshener]

last week I sat down, made a 'to do' list of things I needed to do on wow. looked at said list, then logged off. this does affect more than just the high-end raiders as is if you look at someone who wants to at least play at a high level.

[@РайанВанМон]

my personal voice would state that back in "the days" of BC and even the beginning of wotlk, the game was "beatable" as in you could go through the game and accomplish most of the things you wanted. you could get lost in the game and top tier gear. now everything seems so scheduled and overwhelming. its like even when im not playing im still thinkng "man theres something i could be doing.... OMG A FORGOT ABOUT THAT ULDUAR ACHIEVEMENT I MISSED TWO XPACS AGO". and to me that makes the game not satisfying because theres alot of things holding me back from being in the current state of the game you feel? its too hard to stay on top of things and still have time to do the leisurely activities or go pvp raiding nowadays

[@strx63]

For me what has changed over the years is that in the past you had raids and pvp, not much farming was needed. Now if you want to play the game fully, you need to spend a lot of time grinding for pets, toys, mounts, appearances, achievements which ultimately take a lot of time. Raiding has become more streamlined due to guides addons etc, but overall you need to play more now than in the past, if you want to complete all aspects of the game.

[@Fharlion]

The addition of the later AP traits made the hardcore side of WoW "too hardcore". Getting multiple specs or characters up to speed used to be demanding and time consuming, but not impossibly so, because it was only gearing, consumables and maybe professions (on top of character knowledge). Now that a huge long power grind was also added to the list, being hardcore is simply too demanding on many people because that is when they need to play 80+ hours a week.

[@schmonkeeshomky5386]

I must say, this is the first WoW installment where I only have one character to max level, and he only has one spec to AP 50+. But, at least I'm not sitting in garrison asking myself why I just spent two hours jumping up and down and running in circles doing nothing.

[@noodledkx545]

There is no refractory period to high end raiding anymore. Back then you could have all BiS gear in the first 4 weeks of raid release(top 10% guilds) and wait until the next raid to do it again.

[@Mazxlol]

I havent played legion for a few months now, i do not miss it AT ALL. i used to raid hard core in MOP, even managed to get heroic warforged weapon etc. honestly i HATE random loot, its one of the reasons i dont want to raid anymore.

[@metallfreak15]

The 10.000h is a myth: The second myth is that it requires at least ten years, or 10,000 hours, of deliberate practice to reach an elite level of performance. Ericsson et al. (2007) explained this idea as follows: “Our research shows that even the most gifted performers need a minimum of ten years (or 10,000 hours) of intense training before they win international competitions” (p. 119, emphasis added). Subsequently, Gladwell (2008) proposed in Outliers that “Ten thousand hours is the magic number of greatness” (p. 41). More recently, the Nobel laureate Daniel Kahneman (2011) wrote in his book Thinking, Fast and Slow that “Studies of chess masters have shown that at least 10,000 hours of dedicated practice…are required to attain the highest levels of performance” (p. 238). But the data indicate that there is an enormous amount of variability in deliberate practice-even in elite performers. One player in Gobet and Campitelli's (2007) chess sample took 26 years of serious involvement in chess to reach a master level, while another player took less than 2 years to reach this level. Ref: : Hambrick, D.Z., et al., Deliberate practice: Is that all it takes to become an expert? Intelligence (2013),

[@jormungandthemidgardserpen1845]

exorsus are still in the race. at least until tomb if sargeras. they talked about it in finalbosstv interwiev. Alveona(guild master) told, that they will fight for world first KillJeaden. and nurse(exorsus rogue) told the same on this stream.

[@sourlol2109]

Ex top 20 US raider... been quit since end of MOP. The last point related to time investment vs reward as well as life moving on forced me to quit. After multiple years of /played I had graduated high school and college had multiple relationships and begun my career. I don't regret my life as a hardcore raider, but there is no way I could go back to that lifestyle. i can commit to 20-25 hours of raiding in addition to all of the out of raid effort that needed to be put in. loved wow, happy to be retired

[@ppp-bb6rj]

I can't say I'm too worried about super-top end guilds dwindling - I think they tend to take a game and make it a job. I'd like to see untradable personal loot everywhere though, it could help reduce split runs and stuff - manually handing out loot to player is only really relevant to 0.01% of the playerbase, and even then, only for the first few weeks/months of a raid patch.

[@Urra83]

They quits because never before end raiding (hardcore raiding) has involved so much effort inside and outside the raid, in an artifact power system that seems to have no end, the cost in time is simply not worth it..among other factors.

[@aarongodwin6302]

Asmongold what I think is interesting is that all of these top guilds are deciding to quit around the same time which says that most of these players all feel the same, and were only pressing on because they felt an obligation to their guild.

[@dolerbom]

The high end players quitting just shows that the grind can be too much for everybody on the spectrum. These players are insanely geared, but even the most geared people in your guild can get unlucky with legendaries, unlucky with titanforging, unlucky with world boss loot, etc. Fuck sake, the person who writes the hunter guides on icyveins does not have one best in slot legendary, and I am supposed to think it is achievable beyond good luck for me to get mine? God forbid blizzard make your class unplayable (every tank except monk and druid) and you have to reroll. Blizzard should have had the foresight to see how this much rng and grinding would make people quit.

[@sej120]

dolerbom im a little confused about the tank part when literally sco and slootbag have said this expansion is the best its been in awhile for tank viability how only monks and druids are allowed unless you mean it in the sense they do were a 1% difference in damage reduction can make or break you getting world second rather then world first. which i know pretty sure most of community doesnt even step foot in until the next expansion

[@dolerbom]

I am not sure how tanks were in wod, and all of them could be played in emerald nightmare because it was easy, but right now running anything other than a druid or monk feels like a chore, even on things like heroic guldan. Tank killing mechanics that druids can just take and monks can just stagger one shot warriors, blood dks, and pallies. It is not just the top % having tank struggles in nighthold progression.

[@redrov3r]

Blizzard should totally put a prize incentive for World First, it would revitalize the game and put a much more competitive edge into the game. The only way it would work is revamping the current raid set up into something similair to tiers.

[@marcobaukrowitz9936]

Personally, im going back to a Private server of choice in an older expac. The reasons i quit is obv. 1. AP grind 2. The 0 chance to Reroll to another class or EVEN ANOTHER SPEC, Some people love to Play alot of different Classes ... (i am Warlock ) I feel like the Legendarys arent even that annoying for the Progress, but as a Player who does care about Warcraftlogs during farm , its fucking Disgusting AF.

[@Onlinejaguar]

I pretty much agree on most points on this video. I raid 2 days a week casually and the titanforging and legendary systems basically ruin the linear gearing progression. Doing the same content over and over in the hopes of getting a titanforged item is not fun.

[@ActionhealerYT]

As a former hardcore raider that has played since Vanilla and is now 30 years old i agree with everything you say, i used to think hardcore raiding was really fun but my life as an adult does not allow for such a lifestyle anymore.

[@zxjoshxz]

Midwinter and SNF have merged to become more competitive for worldwide raiding, but there was also a lot of drama with that.

[@theonlyaveragetroll]

I quit because I've been playing for ~12 years, I wasn't really behind the curve, 897 Prot Pally, both weps 45+, 896 Havoc DH, 54 traits in both weps, game just got boring after doing the same thing over and over for that long. Game is going casual, rewards for time put in just isn't worth it anymore.

[@gavin58582]

Funny thing is during Vanilla and TBC there was content for casual and Hardcore players alike. Blizzard fucked it up to make the game for everyone when they had the game was good for everyone. And yes not having LFR/LFD is a problem. The only thing they could have done was do 10 and 20 man raids instead of 20 and 40.

[@TheDeadOctopus]

I just returned to playing TERA and there's a feeling I get playing TERA that I never got in WoW. The feeling is that of upgrading a weapon to its maximum capacity. It feels so good :)

[@Kyle-uo5bg]

Great video, I agree with the points that were presented. These are my thoughts about the decline of hardcore players: I enjoyed when "BiS" was plausible, you could set a goal of getting BiS gear and grinding all day to get it, finally achieving it felt so amazing! Once you got BiS you could casually play alts or play other games to prevent burn-out. Now players feel too compelled to play wow *strictly* and stick to one character primarily for grinding Legendaries, titanforged and AP, while hardcore players must also maintain alts throughout the expansion... needless to say it's exhausting and makes you doubt the point of endless grinding. I enjoy playing multiple games but wow currently opposes that playstyle, so I quit.

[@UFalum2011]

I'm nowhere near high-end raiding, and even I get pissed off with RNG loot. I can imagine that's a massive factor for the big boys...

[@primux1]

I've quit playing wow ( was a raider like you.. 3 nights a week ) because my guild fell apart when they required 20 people for Mythic. It was the best year in a while! I just recently came back to WOW but only as a casual player, login in only a few times a week and it feels less taxing on real life! I suggest everyone does this at least once...

[@jonmaciel]

It's possible to monetize but - same goes for HS and HotS - there needs to be friendlier tools available for caster and observers. Look at DOTA, just watch matches live as they happen. For WoW, an event organizer would need a way to create a custom lobby for a game...for either 2 groups or 4 if you want...and essentially have raid races. That even would be streamed and you can watch the top guilds clear raid wings simultaneously the fastest times win. PVP, how nice would it be to just be able to watch high ranked players playing against each other right from game rather than hoping and praying someone is streaming? Ease of access is what it comes down. When it comes to casting and event organizing, blizzard games in general are not friendly.

[@Korijenkins1414]

I think this applies to the more widespread raiding scene. Why raid mythic at all? Why put in all that effort? For titles and mounts that can be obtained solo, or with greater ease, in the next patch? If you're just raiding to have fun you might as well just raid heroic and meet people.

[@ShiyoKozuki]

Hardcore raiding should have died 10 years ago. Raiding is an outdated concept in MMO's and doesn't actually work and isn't fun to the vast majority of people. You didn't have to raid in vanilla to enjoy the game and play it for months. Too much development time is spent on raids which isn't content the vast majority of people want to do, and content the majority CAN'T do. I'm a hardcore gamer and I don't have time to screw around in 20 man raid content, because that craps obnoxious and stopped being fun in 2008. FF14 does it right, 8 man bleeding edge raids, 24 man casual fests. That's much better - however I feel that 4-5 man dungeons should be the main focus and raids should be the casual focus for people who are bad and need to be carreid by 9-19 other people. Expecting 20 people playing perfectly every single day grinding and doing mechanics flawlessly in 2016 is just awful.

[@dylansimcox7288]

Shiyo Kozuki if they stopped making raids all 25 of my guild members would quit

[@BerraLJ]

Love the siege of Orgrimmar raid in the background, did 10/14 solo on my 101 prot pally yesterday :) totaly failed on the Spoils though so quit there.

[@Starburp]

150% agree with that blizzard has a very aged player base I've been here since wc2 and Diablo 1. I'm nearly 29 years old. Increasing the amount of time we need to invest in our favorite game as opposed to reducing the amount of time is just going to decrease the player base

[@StraussWyldeTT]

The amount of content is not the problem. We love it. It's the artifact grind, paragon BS, for each spec on on your main and alt that's the killers.

[@user-fk5lu6jp8p]

The idea is to put 10,000 hours into something while you are under 10 years old to become a master, not just 10,000 hours. It fundamentally changes the meaning of that quote.

[@aussiesparks]

Original wow started as a perfectly delicious pizza.Then they just kept adding topping, got rid of the pizzas base, added things that are delicious on their own but dont belong on a pizza. Then they topped it off with so much cheese that it masks the horror lying just below the surface.

[@mrs.alienrope5778]

we should poll the top 10 raiding guilds and give them a few choices and see what comes back. 1) other life commitments 2)top raiding is too much like a job 3)no real life rewards 4) ap grind 5) high raid standards/commitments 6)top guild/raid drama. Let them be able to choose multiple and them have them choose one most likely and one least likely. Then we can know for sure.

[@aznmarinex2]

i dont have time to raid so i mainly do high m+ and i have a blast. i like being able to do harder content with less people because organizing 20 good players together is annoying

[@zold909]

Blizzard made a big mistake with AP...instead of daily quests you felt like you had to do to keep up now it's artifact power. Add the fact that if you are running high mythic + dungeons all day long, potentially you walk in to. Re raids out gearing the instance almost immediately. It sounds like so much work to beat a new raid tier in a week on mythic mode, then you farm it for months, to outgear the next instance so you can beat it first again. No wonder these hardcore raid teams quit. It's all luck and grind now.

[@RealKengeki]

I think when the discussion comes down to "am i gonna sit here and grind this game for a chance to make money," then you've truly forgotten what gaming is about.