Why are Traditionalists leaving, not Progressives

My attempt to answer the most frequently-asked question regarding the Methodist split - Why do Traditionalists feel the need to leave, while Progressives stay

[@tennman6855]

When you let the wolves into your flock you have to expect carnage. The Great Falling Away.

[@IndianaJoe0321]

The radical leftists who usurped the UMC were never saved -- thus, there was no falling away.

[@GasCityGuy]

The final straw for me with the UMC was when the new Bibles arrived at our church that contained a preface with several pages apologizing(literally) for the "masculine dominant" language of previous additions of the Bible. The Holy Bible NEVER needs to be apologized for.

[@austinlovitt8298]

No way. I thought that was something that is coming (like in the UMC’s future), but I guess I’m not surprised that it’s already here. Just wait until all the conservatives leave in a few years. Boy howdy

[@tommylinsley2081]

This has gone on for many years. Evil never quits.

[@DrGero15]

What Bible was that which had this?

[@joerodriguez6043]

They were NOT apologizing for the Holy Bible but way it was translated to make some feel excluded.

[@conceptualclarity]

​@@joerodriguez6043 wrong take

[@juliatepe5760]

Thank you for your time and effort to answer this question. I've often asked this question ; your video is very helpful. Prayers for us all.

[@bearnurse1]

I have heard that another reason conservatives have decided to leave is because they think many umc seminaries and agencies are too full of progressives so it would be too much trouble to root out the liberals so conservatives will leave to make a fresh start with new conservative institutions.

[@tommylinsley2081]

Yes, that is true (I serve at a Methodist church). Conservatives would be crazy to hold on to (and pay for) the woke seminaries that would keep pouring errant pastors (and future bishops) into churches. Conservative UMC churches are free to leave to another denomination, but the same problems are happening to all the major denominations. Even the Baptist church (the last bastion of denominational christianity) is falling to the wayside.

[@ricknelson4721]

You are right. Some more conservative seminary students are going to other seminaries like Asbury instead of Candler or Duke

[@davidcawrowl3865]

@@tommylinsley2081 So what do all these churches - denominations - have in common? Every single one of them? It is the one thing from which multiple issues have risen. Namely: They all have a General Conference/Assembly. Early Christianity (the first century church) did not have such a thing, nor was it ever mentioned as an entity in scripture. Anything man-made is inherently flawed. The old adage of, "Speak where the bible speaks, and be silent where the bible is silent", does apply. General Assemblies are tainted because they are not God-given. They are creations from the mind of man; and flawed. Would that we would get back to the style and format of the early church. Independently guided churches of Christ headed by elders (and deacons) without an overseeing assembly. What we are witnessing is chaos, and it is so very wrong and sad.

[@tommylinsley2081]

@@davidcawrowl3865 You're right. And, Denominations are not God's plan. Denomination = division. I worship in a 1st century fashion. I try to be a light (and also serve) at a Methodist church, but it's not my main place of worship.

[@DavidB-ec7bm]

@@davidcawrowl3865 We had at 1 time a council of Bishops who were supposed to provide leadership and guidance. Sadly, UMC bishops refused to stand up and support the book of discpline.

[@cordeliawalker453]

Thank you for attempting to answer some of the questions we have. Be in prayer for all churches trying to make a decision.

[@suetipping4841]

In the 1960's The Presbyterian Church split into traditional and progressive. I have always been a traditionalist. The progressives have so taken over the Presbyterian churches that it is difficult to find a traditionalist, original doctrine, church in my area. It is quite heartbreaking that at the end of my life I cannot physically attend a Presbyterian Church that practices as my childhood church practiced, where my aunt was children's choir director and my mother one of the deacons. Heartbreaking. I watch 10th Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia online now.

[@beegirl1385]

Exact same reason I left so called United Methodism

[@Steelhorsecowboy]

Great church. My son used to go there and we watch it online occasionally.

[@jeffkardosjr.3825]

What area?

[@suetipping4841]

@@jeffkardosjr.3825 Sylvania Ohio, near Toledo, Ohio. No Presbyterian Church in America. There are Presbyterian USA (progressive) churches galore.

[@chrisbollow6135]

OPC churches seem legit.

[@drjanebeatty]

I left the UMC and joined an Independent Baptist Church. Leaving the UMC made me sad, but I am completely fed up with progressive, liberal, and woke ideology.

[@Tupelo927]

What do you mean by 'woke ideology?' I ask because it has become a nebulous phrase.

[@t.cjohns740]

I have some family that are trying to lead their UMC out. Did any of your members from your UMC go with you to your Independent Baptist Chuch?

[@beegirl1385]

I went ARP for most of those reasons.

[@russ254]

“woke” means dividing the world into oppressor and oppressed based on race. good races and bad races. it’s a racist conspiracy theory.

[@mrobbins2777]

My concern is that it is misleading, to say the least, for the UMC name to continue to be used after a major split.

[@janiehesser8591]

The conservative faction will be called the Global Methodist church. The liberals will retain the UMC title. We had a meeting at our church last night. I gathered that the consensus is to separate. But there isn't and easy way..it's going to cost a lot of money. So sad.

[@marilynfutrell6781]

@@janiehesser8591 we are Leavjng. We are ready for a revival and Gods word to be preached. We feel this is God’s way of leading us out. And to stand for God

[@kayabernethy830]

Agreed! It certainly isn't United anymore. I think they just threw away 2000 years of Christian doctrine.

[@arimathean4128]

I'm one of the people who were asking this question, so I appreciate the clear, thorough response. I left the UMC about a quarter-century ago for the Episcopal Church. And then, when Anglicanism began to disintegrate, I moved on to Eastern Orthodoxy. My parents and brother are still United Methodist. The main problem I see with "traditionalists" leaving to start a new church is that it bespeaks a very Protestant ecclesiology. I doubt John Wesley would approve, and I'm sure Charles Wesley would not. A church that begins in this way will, inevitably, be overly focused on the specific issues over which it went into schism. It will probably be less concerned with Wesleyan theology and spirituality.

[@michaelbedsole6844]

Thanks Daniel, great explanation! The way I’ve been explaining this issue revolves around a married couple where one partner, say the husband has for some time been openly cheating on his wife and staying out late, coming home after cheating on his wife, or maybe not coming home at all. He refuses to stop his ways or go to counseling and has clearly broken his vows repeatedly over a long period of time with his consistently sinful way of life. What’s the wife to do? She asks her husband to leave but her husband refuses to leave the home. What are her options? The only one I can see is to leave the home and leave the marriage as when vows are consistently broken there really is no marital relationship. The vows that the marriage was consecrated on are broken, the terms of the original relationship have been destroyed and so the woman really has no real option except to leave. And start anew!

[@jamesgossweiler1349]

Leaving isn't based on a "feeling" nor is it a "tradition." It's based on Scripture and sound doctrine based thereon. Good grief, doesn't anyone read and accept the authority of Scripture anymore?

[@timothythompson4036]

You only hear this discussion on social media.

[@jdbreaux8080]

Daniel, thanks for keeping us informed! Don't know where you live, but I was born and raised in East Baton Rouge Parish. We are blessed in Texas and Louisiana to be passionately involved and face this problem in the BoD. Thank you for keeping us informed and educated as this issue has finally reached a point to being resolved. I pray for us to move forward *with the gospel* as soon as possible. IMHO... I believe *the* only problem is in the Book of Discipline, while a living doctrine, is hypocritical from front-to-cover. With or without LGBT, this living book is inherently in conflict. We solve that, everything falls into place. The point being "...to do *no* harm." If this book is not resolved, a split will not address the source of the problem and will ultimately destroy our deep love for the Holy Trinity. If people wish to fight, and take this to courts, they clearly do not understand the source of the problem. Those who wish not to address this conflict may as well agree to legalize slavery in 2022. I do not think slavery should be legal. Humanity does not believe that either. We are not following God's teaching if fail to address the source of this problem. My love, humanities love for God should be boundless. This is a problem to overcome.

[@keithwilson6060]

There is nothing wrong with the Book of Discipline. It mirrors the precepts found in scripture regarding homosexual lust and conduct. If you don’t like it, leave.

[@russ254]

this slavery allusion makes no sense. gender ideologies are sex fantasy identities - slavery is forcing other people to participate in your sex fantasy.

[@alanjohnson6398]

I am a conservative person and I am a member of a fairly conservative congregation. We voted to remain within the United Methodist Church although it was not a decision that was easily made and we lost a number of long time members--whole families of members--in the process. It is a decision I still rehash and pray on almost daily. Our overarching reason for staying really focused on what we felt was the intolerance of the Traditionalists with regard to homosexuality and the issues related to it. (Ordination, marriage etc) In the end we took the view that a key foundational principle--perhaps THE key foundational principle--of the UMC was John Wesley's commitment to the idea of salvation through grace. All can be saved by grace and all must be saved by grace. No one, gays included, is denied the gift of prevenient grace nor denied the opportunity to experience justifying grace and, ultimately, sanctifying grace through the Lord Jesus Christ. We took a long look at the history of Christianity and realized that the catholic (i.e. Universal--not Roman Catholic) church has changed and evolved its views on any number of moral issues over the millennia. Even in Christ's time there was a realization that circumcision, while demanded of all Jews under the first Covenant, was not essential for salvation. In the 1800's there was the clear realization that slavery of any kind, no matter how beneficial or paternalistic it may have been practiced, was an absolute sin and abomination. This was something John Wesley himself preached vigorously about. So we rejected the intolerance and embraced the true meaning of grace. But that is not the end of it. For it is also true that the 'progressive' UMC adopts and embraces a number of ideals my church rejects categorically. The nauseating 'demasculinization' of the Bible is one major point. The implicit anti-semitism of the UMC platform is another. These are things that we who remain in the UMC must fight with all of our vigour and vehemence. And there are many more as well. I vote every year to withhold our connectional apportionment as a matter of principle. For us it came down to a decision to fight the 'rot' from within or to walk away from the legacy of 250 years of Wesleyan soteriology.

[@russ254]

enjoy your abortion, and your replacement of marriage with “confirmed relationships”, just to make gay people more comfortable.

[@ricknelson4721]

I have been a Methodist all my life. I was baptized in the United Methodist Church. Now it seems that we are being forced out, but having to pay large sums to leave. No grace from the liberal wing.

[@davidauenson5446]

Sometimes you just must walk away and start over..

[@JLkreider]

No one is being forced to leave.

[@terryhenson3350]

I don't feel forced out. I have left on my own accord! It is shameful what is happening in the Methodist Church! As a lifelong Methodist, I am sickened at how the Book of Disciplines is just being thrown out. It has been what governed the Methodist church for so long! Shouldn't even be a question, just because a group of people don't want to recognize the teachings of Christ!!! It is no longer recognized as The Methodist Church.

[@opaaria195]

@@JLkreider that depends on what you consider as being forced...Many of us are very hurt that we are having to make these difficult decisions…it very much feels like a marriage involving infidelity and loss of trust, and being left with no option but to overlook and accept, or divorce.

[@imherwerdio6852]

Sounds to me like you all are getting upset over nothing. You're just mad because you can't be validated in your homophobia.

[@billsaus2553]

Recalling the Apostle Paul’s prophetic admonition in 2nd Timothy 3:1-5…seems to be an appropriate perspective of what is transpiring in the UMC.

[@frankrahm8041]

Who are you and where do you serve? An self-intro at the top of the video would have helped me. Thanks.

[@danc8791]

I see your points however I don't think you should be afraid of litigation if it means being at a financial disadvantage by leaving early.

[@Gg-rssystG8]

Best way Fix the breach Repentance. 1Cor 6: 9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

[@nicothebassdude]

Years ago I left the church I grew up in because they decided to leave the UMC denomination for the same reasons this split is happening. That church is now bankrupt and the 200+yr old building likely will be sold in the next couple years. In my current (UMC) church, most of the people that were going to leave, had already left when our new pastor simply started preaching "Love your neighbor, no matter what"... and they felt attacked. Churches are already dying, ones that exclude people will just do so faster.

[@mcneillmama50]

Ones that are all inclusive aren't growing either. Church attendance and financial giving is down in all denominations. Don't fool yourself. Ppl are tired and weary of the hypocrisy.

[@JaneJones-bq7fn]

Thank You. Forward with Global Methodists

[@luannelangley2500]

My question is: How do we know that the Global Methodist Church will not do us the same way the the United Methodist Church has done? I've been Methodist all my 62 years and I put my trust in the Church to follow the discipline they set but, have not.

[@keithwilson6060]

As long as the new Global Methodists carry with them the same poison pills into the new conference (female ordination, pro-abortion stance, reluctance to sternly condemn homosexuality, etc.) they will apostatize to the same leftist position in a matter of a few years.

[@MethodistPreacher]

Based on the website, rules are in place to protect the local Church. Since the property remains under the ownership of the local Church should any changes be made that do not comply with the local Church’s beliefs the said Church can leave unharmed.

[@stevenmcgillivray9283]

Follow GOD's Word on homosexuality, and lesbianism, and their alphabet soup moral depravity. Human's ideas etc., can't hold a candle to the BIBLE. :-)

[@TheMrTTT]

While I can't predict the future, I do know the UMC has already disaffiliated from the local churches. This video lays out exactly what that looks like.

[@TheMrTTT]

Thats why many churches are moving to Free Methodist. It's been up and running on Bible-based traditional teaching and Christology since 1860.

[@timothythompson4036]

The UMC is collapsing. I am a Episcopaliam my whole life. The Episcopal Church is collapsing over the same issues. The Baptists are next. This is getting ugly.

[@IronPyromancer]

This is completely off topic, but I see many Pastors of multiple denominations with the same set of books he has on the top shelf to his left. What is that set of books?

[@danielhixon8209]

I see them in tons of videos too! That is the collected writings of the Early Church Fathers, specifically, the reprinted set of the Ante-Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers put out by Hendrickson a while back. When I graduated seminary in 2007 I bought the whole set new from Christianbook.com for about $230 - amazing price! - today on Ebay the set goes for closer to $2K (they are older translations and all available online for free as well) - www.ebay.com/itm/296202053325?itmmeta=01HSXHDV0XZPD9QFJ8GY91QEFJ&hash=item44f704a6cd:g:3LMAAOSw1ZxlvUMo&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0Mxij5U7eg%2BGBrodCWdTWzyvT%2BKUTA8zfI8nD2XSMfkzABUlM2%2BAt7OBY6oj7mJaIRmW7ptI4KRoq4N8Wrz2p0PMu22MNRNtRoDoCGA5s5%2FRSrPP0P%2Bw85iHe%2FWBUjNAA9ro54Z8ykLwcmDwLWpmfGf%2FG0sry7d1rQRWxTmHbCQTJY7y%2BlUtYGcYW7ZutYLMal2Z%2Bu7cgzj8ZpFpsmIoPVIXt9c83%2Bp2EvTkrIoZf%2FZibFc%2Fcul2FBmyrDhlOrvOxk2tg6YbjItE8H2JNUArWbQ%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9Cwt7HPYw

[@IronPyromancer]

@@danielhixon8209 sweet, thanks for replying. I don't know that I want to drop two grand for them, but now that I know what they are I can keep my eye out for them.

[@UnashamedofJesus]

Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 2 Corinthians 6:14

[@philipmatherne8572]

To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife. To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? 1 Corinthians 7:10-16

[@mitchmonteith6468]

I agree with you but is there a quick answer/solution to the problem. If progressive want new laws they should leave.

[@boooshes]

Nice discussion. For many small churches, the required financial burden through the 2553 process makes disaffiliation difficult or impossible. Any organization that moves to a place where their own rules won't be enforced is subject to minority disembowelment. Here in the Virginia conference, the move to disaffiliate is fairly small so far. Our bishop has repeatedly said she will uphold her vows to follow the discipline and has not spoken out regarding her personal opinion. Of course, that is good but only lasts as long as the bishop or the discipline remains unchanged.

[@danielhixon8209]

Hi boooshes, It certainly is expensive, however it may be more 'do-able' than many churches realize. We got our 'unfunded pension liability' numbers this week and it was a good deal less than some of the early "guesstimates". Another factor is that - depending of course where a congregation "lands" - some or even all of the apportionment line in your budget could be shifted towards paying back a loan or re-building reserves that were spent down to pay for the "buy out". Perhaps a deal could even be worked out with a local bank or wealthy member of the community to get a loan with little or no interest, to be paid back in, say, 5 years.

[@boooshes]

@@danielhixon8209 would you care to share the size of you church or maybe the pastor salary you pay and the unfunded liability they quoted. We had a local church with a small congregation that got a figure around $80K. Fortunately we have no debt.

[@danielhixon8209]

​@@boooshes can you email me direct at revhixon at gmail

[@TheMrTTT]

Here's the text of the preamble of the Proposed Legislation. "We envision the post-separation United Methodist Church will strive to create a structure of regional conferences to facilitate ministry adaptable to regional contexts, and we further envision that the post-separation United Methodist Church will repeal the Traditional Plan and remove all other restrictive language related to LGBTQ persons. Not all traditional United Methodists may choose to separate from The United Methodist Church and join a New Methodist Denomination."

[@terryhenson3350]

They have 2 choices!

[@denecroxford2475]

I know that when the Church of England allowed female clergy, it bled members to the Roman Catholic Church. Even though the UMC has always permitted women ministers, maybe because the UMC has taken more liberal stances on a number of other issues (excluding those positions taken on same sex marriages and the ordination of overtly LGBTQ clergy), that having female pastors is becoming more of an issue and perhaps churches that don't have female clergy are perceived as being more traditionalist and possibly less progressive in their ideology, and therefore seem more attractive to erstwhile Methodists with more conservative views. This is just my theory in light of what has happened within the Anglican Communion. It may also be interesting to see the number of converts to Catholicism, High Church Anglicanism or Eastern Orthodoxy that have come from the UMC, for example. And even UMC members who have adopted other faiths like Islam, orthodox Judaism or schools of Buddhism that do not permit women priests, assuming indeed that that was one of the prime reasons for their conversion.

[@richardcomfort1032]

I do

[@Sun-nq9ip]

Breaks my heart….i was born into Methodism. Sunday school. Church events. MYF. Methodist youth camps. Worked at an eastern Methodist assembly ground. Methodist College. Married in Methodist church. Children christened in Methodist church. And, now this. So sad. I’m of the mindset that marriage is between a man and a woman who are to be fruitful and multiply. This church decision is confusing to me. ( I have some lesbian/ gay friends , who I love - but do not agree with their choice in this.)

[@maryjohnson502]

Don't know how umc can even consider ignoring the bible.

[@carolhunt6191]

Correction, many enter through it

[@carlshorttjr5711]

Thank you for the video; it was very informative and reinforces the fact that the majority of conservatives have allowed the minority liberal voice to be the loudest once again!!! Such a shame.

[@nickbarton9819]

Yes it is

[@terryhenson3350]

@@nickbarton9819 t really is a shame!

[@marilynfutrell6781]

Yes it is. But we are leaving and ready to hear Gods word being preached.

[@robertburke9920]

Consider studying the book “Think Like An Advanced Christian- BURKE.” Excellent Maturity.

[@bran09don72]

I wish the traditionalists would have stayed and held firm.

[@chamber251]

This unfortunate current split in the UMC reminds me of a similar split in southern Methodists in the 1960s-1970s. When I was growing up in the 1960's South, many churches left the UMC because they opposed racial integration, believing the Bible called for continued segretation of blacks and white. My wife and I were both sad and excited as we recently transferred from a church leaving the UMC. We have joined a UMC church that is staying the course until the next annual conference. We would have preferred to see our old church support, and the UMC approve, one of the other options than the Traditional Plan. We hate to see the church divided over this one issue of acceptance of gay marriage/clergy. We have gay relatives, and it appears to us they were made by God and nature this way, and deserve full acceptance and support in the church. We suppose the broader issue is how literally we interpret the Bible. We think our society's understanding of homosexuality has improved over the last many centuries.

[@DavidB-ec7bm]

I agree that society's view of homosexual activites, transgendor activites has changed. Did the Bible become a guide book instead of the word of the Lord?

[@edharris6452]

Yes, there are similarities, but the Bible explicitly lists homosexuality as a category of fornication in both the old and new testaments. Mosees on the other hand, took a darkskinned wife, and everyone gave him flak for it, but God said that those who opposed Moses were wrong. Therefore, there is a difference between Biblical and cultural preferences.

[@JLkreider]

I haven't heard anything about what the Central Conference are doing. This is a dilemma for them. They are traditionalists. If many traditionalist churches leave this would give the African churches an even larger vote in General Conference.

[@genegoodman5233]

If the conference wanted to do the right/honest thing and be fair to all sides, then there would be no cost. I know theirs legal costs, and just normal business costs. What some of the big shots, people who have the power are trying to do is steal as much as they can from the church’s that disagree with their thinking. The conference didn’t pay for any real estate when each church joined. Now the churches are going to pay a penalty to get the real estate back. What’s being done is not right, these look like the money handlers that Jesus threw out of the temple. Thanks for your video.

[@MethodistPreacher]

As an AME Church pastor, I know what’s next for our denomination, per the last General Conference (2021). One thing comes to mind. If bishops are in charge of how each conference decides the exit plan with its costs, etc. I see two things at hand. 1) Knowing most local Churches may exit and with fewer Churches there comes a possible budget deficit. Forcing exiting Churches to pay in order to leave will fund the smaller UMC denomination for years to come. 2) By charging so much to exit, most Churches may opt out of leaving, however pastors may do so. Meaning the bishops can appoint more “liberal” pastors. These are just my thoughts. Now on my personal interpretative note, I do not consider those who claim to be “progressive” as truly “progressive” since historically homosexuality has been around for millennia and the “progressive” move (according to Leviticus 18:1-3) would be to not copy the “Egyptian nor Canaanite” abominable lifestyles which were acceptable and already a practice of those cultures.

[@beegirl1385]

You are right. It's all about funding the liberal arm of the UMC ...rather involuntarily.

[@terryhenson3350]

That's beside the point, Pastor.

[@lagagirl]

This is the best explanation yet.

[@jenniferevans2046]

When two cannot walk together they should separate (Amos). More and more churches are being split by the progressive ideas (which are not progressive but regressive biblically). The bottom line is whether or not a congregation believes and adheres to God’s word, rather than societal changes which are in direct contravention with God’s word. More and more true bible believers are starting to go underground, maybe back into house groups.

[@marypeck4846]

I have felt that "the church" would eventually go back to meeting in individual homes but who would listen (to me).

[@toddbu-WK7L]

There is *nothing* better that the traditionalists can do than to walk away from everything, perhaps with the exception of pensions. Otherwise, leave it all behind - the buildings, the missions, and anything else that you think has value. That's because the real value behind your faith is the love that you receive in the death and suffering of Christ to pay the penalty for your sin. You may think that I'm joking or that I'm a progressive, but neither is true. You don't need anything other than a faithful heart to worship our Savior, and you may just find that life is better when you walk away from conflict. Otherwise you just become bitter and angry. Is that really worth the few bucks that you'll keep when you're done?

[@janiehesser8591]

Whitfield would turn over in his grave. Corrupted churches....sign of the times.

[@michaelhinton6965]

The UMC is splitting because the bishops do not enforce the disciplne, thus favoring the homosexuals. I wonder why.

[@kjmav10135]

The UMC is splitting because of right wing bigotry and hatred. There. Fixed it for you.

[@FreddieVee]

Do I understand this explanation correctly? The Traditionalists are leaving now because the can't predict the future.

[@danarose6314]

They are all going to Purity Island

[@paulblack7512]

if the Christian church isn't pure it is perverted...

[@revywong8998]

I fear that this split will either kill the UMC or the UMC will dwindle to a very small branch in the methodist movement in the long run. My church already left the UMC and joined the Free Methodist Church

[@TheMrTTT]

UMC is already dead spiritually. Activist-agitators have done their bidding and destroyed the once exceptional institution. Leadership wrung hands for 40 years and let it happen.

[@musicmanucsj]

I can perceive the UMC loosing many members after 2024. At this point the UMC is loosing over 3% of its membership every year.

[@shawnpark7514]

I agree that the spirituality at UMC is dead now. Our church would like to move out from the UMC. How did you join the Free Methodist Church? Which the BOD paragraph did you use?

[@revywong8998]

​@@shawnpark7514 My chruch's board of stewards voted to dissaffilate unnanimously then the the vote was put put to the churches congeration which had to pass by a two - thirds magority then the second vote was to seek affiliation with the Free Methodist Church after all that 1. the church payed the required apportionments and our portion of the unfunded retired clergy benift liabilities of the confrene to fulfill our obligitaions 2.the alabama - west florida confrence of the UMC meet to ratify our dissifiliation at thier scheduled june 12-15 annual confrence 3.the trustess of the confrence then signed over our property to the trustess of the church then we were realesd from the UMC trust clause 4. then we begin steps of fromal affiliation with the Free Methodist Church 5. Our clergy either retired from the UMC and continue to serve in retirement or follow the steps to transfer thier credentials to the Free Methodist Chruch. my Churches buy out was 4.3 million we keept our building and property we used 2553 over human sexuality

[@buddyroeginocchio9105]

Thank you for a frank and honest analysis of the current situation. I had several thoughts come to mind that are too acerbic for the current climate however here are some observations that will probably bear out. First, the next general conference will probably hold a traditionalist majority if the interntional ecclesia is included. Second, no matter what rules are formulated to remedy the situation, the progressives will simply ignore them, anarchy suits their plan quite well if reason fails. Third, and this is a grim note, trying to enforce rules to repair the denomination will as you say cause endless ugly and weary litigation, however a passive exodus to a new denomination will also cause equivalent litigation. The only way to avoid litigation is to accept the status quo, something most in good faith will not be able to stomach in the long run. We need to humbly pray that the next conference will by some miracle produce a Christ honoring solution. As I drive back and forth to town I am continually struck by the display of a rainbow flag in front of the nearby UMC Church, it does make one weary.

[@user-ey4hd3cp9q]

If your strategy is retreat and their strategy is infiltrate then you will lose forever

[@danielhixon8209]

It sounds like you may have been watching RedeemedZoomer and the Reconquista videos; If not, you may like them. He says never give up on an institution you could still fight for. I appreciate his passion, but don't think he fully appreciates the monumental (and costly) efforts that were made for 50 straight years to turn the UMC around, but all the same I wish him and his project well. There are different analogies that one could use to describe what traditionalists in the UMC did: one is "broke ranks and retreated leaving the field to the enemy." Another analogy would be they were "the folks who actually noticed that the Titanic had hit an iceberg and then prudently got into the lifeboats." Even then I believe that the new orthodox expressions of classical Protestantism (GMC, ACNA, PCA, etc.) will eventually be in a position to buy back properties that the liberal churches can no longer support (I notice just in the news this week reading about two different mainline church-affiliated liberal arts colleges closing and selling their campuses because they are no longer viable). To return to the retreat analogy: if the British had not retreated at Dunkirk, then the Nazis would have won World War II. Sometimes a retreat brings an opportunity to consolidate and press forward in a new direction. If the Reconquista folks are successful in "waiting out" the decline and demise of the revisionist leadership of the mainline churches then there could even be an opportunity for whatever is left of the mainline churches to re-unite with the growing traditional expressions. We will see what the long-term possibilities are.

[@robertcarr7943]

The Bishops are like the government they want the great retirement and benefits but got away from the word of God (Titus 1:7-10). If the Bishops would have took a stand 10-15 years ago, there would be no problem. They used to visit Churches at least twice a year. The only thing saved the traditionalist was the African Methodist Church vote in 2020.

[@shmataboro8634]

Thank God for Africa.

[@pwcorgi2000]

@@shmataboro8634 Amen!

[@alans9707]

Why is the UMC letting the lost lead the church? Why would anyone want to go to a church that won't fight for it's scripture. Might as well go to a social club.

[@TheMrTTT]

Methodist vows of loyalty are to the local congregation: not the larger UMC. We also vow to confront evil in whatever for it presents itself.

[@rachelcorrie8928]

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

[@pwcorgi2000]

The bishop from the North Ga Conference was just one of many, who went against the vote. She even caused all kinds of problems to Bethel UMC. :(

[@dhelton40]

Things that would have been over the top in 1890 are accepted as normal by conservatives now. So it goes, the Methodist will split and 40 years from now, when gay people are normalized in our cullture, people will wonder what all the fuss was about. This is silly, I think the church will come to regret this, as religion declines, it will most likely be hard to put it back together. Together we stand divided we fall.

[@rickleeo970]

kicked the can down the road

[@kentfrederick8929]

It seems to me that the UMC has made the split about same-sex marriage and the ordination of gays. The GMC has made it that issue, the fact that UMC bishops aren't all following the Discipline, that the hierarchy of the UMC has become very top-heavy and expensive for congregations (apportionments), that the practice of conferences owning the real property of each congregation is outdated, and that the practice of a bishop and the cabinet appointing pastors should move to a appointment/call hybrid process, as a group of issues for starting a new denomination.

[@danielhixon8209]

Kent, certainly there are some other very serious reforms needed in the UMC; part of the trouble of this sexual morality debate is that it has dominated recent General Conferences, or made people suspicious of reforms if they were introduced by someone "on the other side", such that these other very serious needs have gone unaddressed for WAY too long. One of the hopes of having an orderly split was that these issues could finally be addressed by each of the new groups.

[@speaklifegardenhomesteadpe8783]

@@danielhixon8209 I pray you read my comment on your other video and the holy spirit speaks to you where my words fail. I'm not in any so called denomination, though I have been and my dad was a pastor during a church split. I recall it was hard for the long term members scared to lose what I call earthly things, the property and financial crap... Which to me said more about them... In the end, many prayers, meetings, legal advice, tears and a slight change in attendance... The church became independent. I was proud of my dad for standing. It was hard on him but he did it and after it was great. They kept the property and wrote up a new church constitution or whatever and ran themselves. Years later I was called out in my own path, I see the massive problems with the body of Christ. I couldn't begin to elaborate. Listen only you will stand and answer for what you're doing. Why are you in a system that stands between you and God when God literally sent Jesus to break the veil, among so much more... Then men go build it back up... There's just so much money and power in it I guess... Please if you love Jesus, please pray for HIS direction and follow the holy spirit only. My heart grieves for the body to live as Jesus called us to live. It wasn't like this. God bless and keep you brethren.

[@TheMrTTT]

My research on GMC is that isn't about non-biblical teaching and Christology. The gay marriage and pastor issues are small symptoms of the larger problem.

[@shmataboro8634]

Also the GMC Bishop's will have a limited term, not a calling for life. A bad UMC Bishop is just about impossible to get rid of.

[@shmataboro8634]

@@speaklifegardenhomesteadpe8783 the part that breaks my heart is that we are a small village church and don't have any of the problems the debate is about, but we can't just mind our own business because the church is splitting and forcing everyone to choose sides.

[@bethelshiloh]

Man’s religious spirit commonly wear religious garb.

[@attkdriver]

A man May cause himself a bishop and a group of people may call themselves a church but it doesn’t make it so. Truly most will hear,” Depart from Me, I never knew you.”

[@benwildcat]

I would add that the draconian enforcement policies passed by narrow margins at the 2019 GC galvanized institutionalists, moderates and centrists to open up discussions with the progressives about a future for the UMC. Perhaps they felt their heads were next on the chopping block? This resulted in a lot of votes in the U.S. swinging away from conservative groups and we see this in the rejection of conservative delegates in many formerly mixed or moderate ACs in the elections of 2019. Some conferences (including some in your jurisdiction) didn’t elect a single conservative clergy delegate in 2019 when in past years they had elected balanced slates. It wasn’t because they all suddenly stopped loving the truth of scripture. I’d also add that conservative leaders had been planning for an exit for awhile. I’d argue that it has been a goal of some since about 2008 (earlier if you count the IRD who have been working towards this goal for a long time, because the division and weakening of the church IS their actual goal), but certainly we see this clearly with the immediate launch of the WCA during 2016 GC. The goal to leave and cripple the UMC has become more popular with the leadership.

[@austinlovitt8298]

No, the goal is to get as far away from this drama as possible in order to move forward, continue our mission, and concentrate on what actually matters in life. Believe me, there are no regrets at all. Shouldn’t leftists be happy that they will soon have it all to themselves?

[@benwildcat]

@@austinlovitt8298 I think you mean “an overwhelming majority of moderates with smaller groups of non-cruel traditionalists and progressives will soon have the church all to themselves”. I heard from a colleague in a large SCJ conference that they are expecting >6% disaffiliation rate. Not really the huge response that folks want to play it up as. Blessings for you as you journey to your safe space.

[@terryhenson3350]

The breakdown is how the Book of Disciplines is being trampled on and trashed and that is the true shame in all this!!!

[@AinSoph73]

Ecclesiastes 7:20 - There is not a righteous man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Psalm 14:3 - There is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[@jamesdeluca6657]

Because of all the bull and hypocrites

[@greamatter]

I struggle with your use of traditionalist. Perhaps you are talking of things spoken of directly in the New Testament. Things like women speaking or teaching in public. Or maybe it is women with short hair or their head uncovered or men praying with their head covered. Maybe it is a new tradition where members of the UMC abandoned the idea of using their brains when we read scripture and viewing it in light of Jesus teaching and example.

[@onceamusician5408]

when a church has become apostate then those among them who still believe the gospel MUST LEAVE. hence conservatives WILL and MUST leave a "progressive" church that by its essence is apostate

[@terryhenson3350]

Duh, Traditionalist lists are tired of all this double talk, and scared to take a stand nonsense. Just inexcusable.

[@theoutdoorslifetv3200]

You make it out that this is between the progressives and traditionalists. It is not. It is between progressives, institutionalists and traditionalists. We institutionalists are mortified by all this. This is going to ultimately destroy our denomination. The adversary is laughing gleefully.

[@trevoroutlaw1655]

I caution against institutional thinking. There are already so many church denominations that one more or less will not hurt the borderless country of Christendom. I believe that compromising biblical law in the interest of gaining a few more bodies in a pew would result in a congregation of the unsaved. If a man stands for nothing he will fall for anything. If a man stands not for God he will fall for Satan.

[@pianoplayer2260]

Here is the gospel straight and simple: 1. Truly acknowledge that you have sinned against a perfect God and you are worthy of hell because you are a sinner. And you can only be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. 2. Believe that Jesus died for you and covered all of your sins as an atonement, then was buried and rose again defeating death. Trust only in the finished work of Jesus apart from ANY good works. The work of Jesus will wash away every wicked thought or deed and you will be declared righteous if you believe on him. 3. Say to God that Jesus Christ that he is your saviour and ask God in your own words to save you. Please let me know. I am praying for you, today is the day of salvation. 2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

[@cowart73]

I juat do not understand terms like liberal or conservative in Christianity. Christ's teachings are clear and unchanging.

[@danielhixon8209]

To be honest, I don't like either of those terms myself since Biblical Christianity will "come across" in our culture as "conservative" on some issues and "liberal" on others; or neither. The terms also have lots of political baggage attached to them. I use these terms as a short-hand instead of saying "United Methodists who believe in United Methodist church teaching and want to preserve it" on the one hand and "United Methodists who think church teaching needs to change to be more in line with current cultural I mores" on the other. I also prefer "traditionalist" over conservative, but it still has some issues.

[@cowart73]

@@danielhixon8209 Thank you for your reply! I think those words should be used in political discourse for the reasons you mentioned. Traditional is better, but I believe the word orthodox to be the best. I think labeling a person as "liberal Methodist" or "liberal Catholic" gives credence to unorthodox, heretical beliefs, as though someone can still rightly be considered a Christian when he/she rejects the basic teachings of Christ. It's like being a vegetarian who eats hot dogs. I know this sounds harsh, but if a church encourages a same-sex attracted person to live an unchaste life, it is impeding those people's temporal and eternal happiness, and therefore it is not connected to the body of Christ. I am Catholic, and I am really rooting for the Methodists to stay close to the Lord in this matter.

[@terryhenson3350]

2024, another delay. Cowardice plain and simple

[@terryhenson3350]

sounds like you're already caving in.

[@user-qj6gx1iy8n]

Have you ever read the, "DO NOT BE DECEIVED", passages in the Bible? Why are those warnings there before God then tells you what He condemns as sin? Because God knows people will deceive themselves into thinking they can live ways contrary to God . I Corinthians 6:9 says, do you not know the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, etc. shall inherit the kingdom of God. Two things this tells you. First, God would not condemn a homosexual unless he considered it sin and their responsibility to repent. Secondly, homosexual desires are in the soul which is the mind, will, and emotions. God joins your spirit and becomes one with your spirit so you have the power to overcome all sin that lives in your soul. I Cor. 6:17 Peter said, "abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul." Everyone has this war going on inside them. The war with your own fallen nature and its fleshly desires. Because people don't live by the indwelling power of God, they give into their fleshly desires. That's where homosexuality comes in. Many others have strong sexual desires like pedophiles, adulterers, and fornicators. It's no different in the eyes of God. Again, God would not condemn these people as well if it wasn't sin. Don't be deceived. The churches that are bringing this defilement into what they call a church might as well shut the doors. Jesus would surely leave that church like He warned the seven churches in the book of Revelation that He would remove Himself from those churches for tolerating sin and false doctrine. When Jesus died He fulfilled the law and the temple sacrifices and priests just kept on with the temple services even though God was finished with it. Likewise, the Methodist churches who are now defiling their churches with homosexual sin might keep meeting but it will simply be formalirty. Jesus will certainly have left the building. Again, listen to the warning, DO NOT BE DECEIVED!

[@AS-tt8ui]

Our church voted to stay UMC. All the major leaders, workers left. The church will survive for awhile but is a shell of what it was. Our family left also. We are sad but relieved and are looking forward to becoming involved in our new Global Methodist Church.

[@danielhixon8209]

From what I'm hearing, this is a fairly common scenario: a church fails to meet the 2/3 threshold (or maybe does not hold a vote at all) and then the majority of the most serious Bible-believing members - the ones who show up most frequently, give the most generously, and volunteer the most readily - leave for a more orthodox option. The UMC has been counting how many churches are leaving/staying, but that really gives next to no real information about how many members are leaving/staying - or your most committed members. As far as the UMC institution is concerned, it is a disaster of the denominational leadership's own making; and I don't think that they can even see that.

[@guywillson1549]

Rev 18:4 Why? You are all following the traditions Matt 15:7 and teachings of men. (Get back to the word and embrace the power and baptism in the Holy Ghost)

[@patsyhagler4479]

Take too much time trying to answer this question! Just say what you need to say and be done with it!

[@kayabernethy830]

Either you follow the Bible's teaching or you pick and choose what you want to follow. I think Christ will be telling a lot of people on judgement day, I never knew you.

[@kenrhoades8040]

As long as you are a 'state church' you will only take the problem with you - salvation is by grace based on the Holy Bible and the Holy Ghost. Traditionalist/Progressive are the same and this is the problem.

[@thefeetfromthetoons2035]

It's all made up, all of it....but ...... Peter's not taking credit!

[@terryhenson3350]

Retirement, isn't that the easy way out! More cowardice!

[@carolhunt6191]

I have not read all of the comments, but I did listen to your rendition of what is happening in the Methodist Church. What I did NOT hear was any consideration for our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ! It is all about a fight, a law suit, "people" pushing their agenda instead of standing firm on God's Holy Word. Remember Matthew7:13,14 The Narrow and Wide Gates which reads: Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many ever through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. So now the question is, what road are you on and what gate shall you enter. God's Wird is TRUTH. Don't fall for the lies of the deceiver. Seek the Lord on this topic before you are "all in" to support of the minority, homosexual agenda.

[@jesusluvsu669]

I’m done with the church totallly after all this

[@beckyloveroberts3592]

It’s too bad the traditionalists can’t force a vote of no confidence for the disobedient bishops and clergy, essentially firing them.

[@bradlong7941]

Not going to happen. The corruption has been systemic for decades. It is now crash and burn time.

[@bigtobacco1098]

Because yall didn't discipline the progressive

[@johngmuer8016]

sola scriptura

[@imherwerdio6852]

Is false.

[@mcneillmama50]

I left because I can't tolerate the ministerial robes and flea collars they wear. It's wreaks with "I'm unapproachable" a pompous stuffed shirt. Draw a breath and draw a salary.

[@chirhoscope3616]

Sounds like you left because you were never a Christian-just a disrespectful troll.

[@russelldarnall]

You took a vow to support the United Methodist Church to faithfully participate in the life and ministries of our local congregation through our prayers, presence, gifts, service and witness. Leaving the United Methodist church is one level of breaking your vow, convincing others to break their vow is another level.

[@chirhoscope3616]

Absolute NONSENSE. Ordination vows are a two way street. When “bishops” don’t obey their vows and ignore the Book of Discipline and Holy Scripture, then the only thing a real Christian can do-ordained or laity-is leave the heretics and affiliate with true believers.

[@furtrapper11]

They'll move on to the next denomination after umc is fully corrupted

[@bernlin2000]

It's a shame that the personal sex lives of parishioners (and the clergy) has become such a "monumental" issue that it's dividing such a profound institution of "faith-based Christianity". This shouldn't have been very hard: the Holy Spirit conversion to Born Again Christianity is INTENSELY personal...and not subject to "general conference" dogma, on the right or the left. And "right and left" are NOT suppose to be a feature of Methodism, not even remotely. It's just awful to see conservatives take politics more seriously than their faith-based Methodist traditions. John Wesley would have freely welcome the LGBTQ community into his churches: you can recognize a "fallen world" and still welcome ALL people (sinners and those attempting to reach "holiness") freely. No shame, no judgement from men...but it's clear that conservatives have decided there must be "special judgement" for people who are not heterosexual (by God's own essence).

[@CornCod1]

I never heard such nonsense. Homosexuality is condemned twice in the New Testament. Are Methodists to ignore scripture?

[@desrussouw6797]

The Bible is very clear in the Old and New Testament that homosexuality, lesbianism is FORGOTTEN BY GOD. GOD is the same today as HE was yesterday (in the 1000's of years thar are past) and for eternally. The book of Revelation gives the church a clear and severe warning that no man must add to the prophecy of this book nor remove from the prophecy of this book. I would not want to be in the shoes of any pastor or minister, elder, bishop or any follower of YESHUA who condones, promotes and accepts homosexuality, transgender, transvestites, and is going in total disobedience to the word and law of Almighty GOD, who calls these acts, lifestyles, an abomination in the eyes of GOD. No pastor nor minister, biblical teacher has the right or the authority to blatantly disgard the word of GOD and the congregations whom the different chut he's are leading, and promoting the homosexual lifestyles AND MARRIAGES, will be held responsible before Almighty GOD and blood of the people will be on their heads. 😊

[@hollywoodhatesjesus7626]

We are not Sub-Catholics anymore. We are either Baptist or Episcopal.

[@kevino9161]

Because swine Bishops like Pittsburgh Diocese , Zubik, keep moving Traditional parishes into the gutters of its local geography. Therefore making it nearly impossible for followers to pursue a Traditional Mass.

[@N3Rd32]

Didn't we already separate from the Roman Catholic church over VERY similar reasons? It's all for nothing if we backtrack now due to the pressures of a tiny fraction of extra non-biblical "followers" of whatever it is they believe in. You cannot change the word of God and the Biblical text because of the outrage of sinners. If you corrupt the Bible to fit current the sinful narrative and culture you just corrupt the Bible to reaffirm sin to and within its congregation. DO BETTER!!!