Why Are You A Cessationist?

[@eternallyfearless8537]

I was a Charismatic the first few years I was a Christian, & while I’m certain I was saved, I was immature & struggled with holy living. I was distracted, always looking for a supernatural experience on top of Biblical truth. I loved the Word but I was doctrinally illiterate & everyone I interacted with seemed more interested in prophecies, visions, dreams etc than in understanding the Bible deeply. Also, my husband came from a very devout Charismatic household & even though he attended church several times a week every week of his childhood & teenage years, he also lacked a thorough understanding of Scripture. I picked up a copy of MacArthur’s “Strange Fire” & was blown away by how much deception is not just a feature, but a bug of the Charismatic Movement. It literally started with a female “pastor” who was married multiple times, and continued largely by charlatans with pompadours & private jets. It is, at the higher levels, THE antithesis of Biblical Christianity mostly because it has had a legacy of really wicked people pushing it. There are certainly decent & well-meaning genuine believers who are in these churches, & I would never say someone who is Charismatic is necessarily an immature believer, but there is no denying the movement has been hijacked by nefarious & demonic forces, and it attracts the unsaved & immature Christians who don’t find the Bible sufficient for their needs (like myself some years ago). Since I became a cessationist & no longer concern myself with distractions, my comprehension of & love for the Word has dominated my life & I don’t have extremes of emotion dictating how strong my faith is. Most of the believers I know who display the most lifelong fruit are also cessationists who hold to sola Scriptura.

[@GioTummy3463]

Read Acts 2:17

[@hillbernardette]

WOW...you are describing mine and my husband's journey!!! I totally agree with you regarding being distracted looking for manifestations and not with the pure WORD. May you continue growing in Grace and Truth!😁

[@babicutatacelu2366]

@@GioTummy3463 the prophecy in Joel (Old Testament) was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost ushering in the new covenant (the last days). We have been in the last days since the church was made.

[@GioTummy3463]

@@babicutatacelu2366 Ok so where in the NT we see Joel's prophecy manifest? Where are these daughters who prophecy and these old men who dream these dreams?

[@SpiritReboot]

There are many Charismatics that believe in the sufficiency of Scripture and don't elevate experience above truth. We can't paint everyone with the same brush or throw away the baby with the bathwater because of some who color outside the lines if you will. We need discernment, which by the way is a gift of The Spirit.

[@BEABEREAN10]

If giving prophecy makes you a prophet and also is equal to scripture...then you'd agree that Phillips daughters were true prophets. And if prophecy equals scripture, then where is the scriptures from Phillips daughters, Agabus, and from the prophets from church at Corinth?

[@Chirhopher]

So glad You did this Brother! i have my doubts that You were responding to my question on fb. But either way -awesome!

[@RightResponseMinistries]

Thanks!

[@caryt59]

Excellent break-down of the roles of church leadership from foundation, (Apostles and Prophets), to modern day roles of pastors and shepherds who are tasked to teach GOD'S word and make disciples!

[@RightResponseMinistries]

Thanks!

[@GioTummy3463]

What about Acts 2:17?

[@TKK0812]

Philips daughters were prophets. Do you believe women were authoritative leaders in the foundation of the church but no longer can be? What about the church at large in Corinth who were told they can each prophesy, one by one. Was the entire church in Corinth an authoritative leader in founding the church and doctrine? How come we don't have *any* of their words?

[@GioTummy3463]

@@TKK0812 good questions to which I don't have the answers. Maybe those women had their roles in their time but now we are only called to preach the Gospel from the written word only?

[@glennmchenry6198]

@@TKK0812 They prophesied but were not prophets. Corinth were sinning and "abusing" the ability of prophesy. Corinthians were the letters Paul wrote to Corinth rebuking their evil ways.

[@klauslebrecht8114]

Very fine debate on cessationism. I would propose for all Christians to back off the macro lens of focus and look at a broad view of the Gospel as seen in scripture. Jesus whole focus was to come into the world, to gather 12 men and spend 3 1/2 years disciplining them, die on a cross to redeem men unto God, and instruct us to once we have been redeemed to share the glorious gift of salvation and disciple others in what he assigned his church to do called the Great Commission. In the charismatic movement focus shifts in importance of the Gospel message often times to the seeking of the supernatural spiritual gifts. This unfortunately can become a replacement Gospel or a false Gospel. My dear brothers and sisters in Christ keep the main thing the main thing.

[@aidanmcmanus2752]

"Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that *through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given,* he offered them money, saying, “Give me *this power also,* that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit” (Acts 8:17-19). This passage reveals another reason why the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased. The Bible reveals that *it was only through the laying on of an apostles' hands could the Holy Spirit be given in this sense if you like.* Paul reveals that he himself imparted gifts in this way. And, one will notice that both Phillip and Stephen who were two of the 7 chosen in Acts 6 demonstrated miraculous abilities immediately after the apostles had laid their hands on them. Only the apostles had *this power* that anyone whom they laid their hands on could receive the Holy Spirit in this sense. Yes, all who became Christians had the Holy Spirit, but not in this miraculous sense. This is consistent with what we find when we survey through the whole of the N.T., that it was always through the laying on of an apostles' hands that such gifts were imparted. This means that these gifts died out with the apostles. And this is precisely what we find happened in church history.

[@calvinli6597]

Excellent video, pastor! Thank you!

[@craigchambers4183]

Spot on.

[@doctrinalwatchdogactive6454]

THE Only FIVE FOLD I WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IS THE FIVE SOLAS

[@robertj5208]

Pastor...Wonderfully exegeted!!! Any chance you could do a similar scriptural cessationism analysis with regards to the Corinthian Gifts of the Spirit? Or is this already in one of your other videos? (Watching this now: "Tongues & Prophecy: Why I Walked Away | with Kofi Adu-Boahen")

[@BEABEREAN10]

Until we come to the fullness and stature of Christ....great way to focus on everything except that part. That's the vital part and reason why they will continue. Not to mention Paul even tells Corinth in 1:7 to continue in gifts until the return of Christ. You used a word salad and reinterpreted the word "unity" so you could appease you mind that miracle's are not for today. I often wonder if the charismatic church didn't act so much like the church at Corinth - IE: excesses and carnality, if the cessationists would change their tone and accept the gifts and workings of the Spirit as still for today.

[@micahlantz905]

Well explained brother Joel

[@GioTummy3463]

So what do we do with Acts 2:17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on ALL PEOPLE. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams."

[@RightResponseMinistries]

The text in Acts 2 is a quote from the Prophet Joel. Joel continues to say that this will be fulfilled directly before this occurrence: “"And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.” ‭‭Joel‬ ‭2:30-32‬ ‭ESV‬‬ This language signifies judgment. Postmillennialism holds that this judgment took place in AD70 with the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. In other words, guys such as RC Sproul, Doug Wilson, Jeff Durbin, and myself would say that the “last days” the Prophet Joel is referencing are the 40 years (give or take) between Pentecost and AD70.

[@GioTummy3463]

@@RightResponseMinistries So where are these sons and daughters who did or will prophesy, young men who will or did see visions, and old men who will or did dream dreams??

[@TKK0812]

@@RightResponseMinistries 1. Nowhere does Joel say this "will be fulfilled directly before". The entire passage describes things that will happen "in the last days". That's it. 2. You are cherry picking things out of the prophecy that no longer apply. Does God still pour out His Spirit (v 28, 30) Does God still save anyone who calls on His name (v 32)? Or did these stop in AD 70 as well? 3. Even if your view was correct, that would not mean that these things didn't continue after as well. That's an argument from silence. 3. 1 Cor 13 and Eph 4 tells us when the gifts of the Spirit will cease explicitly, not your view on eschatology (not that your eschatological view does anything to it either). The 1 Cor 13 view as an argument of the gifts ceasing did not exist before the last century. That's 1900 years that it was foreign to the church and people are leaving that argument in droves because it doesn't hold water

[@GioTummy3463]

@@TKK0812 But if what pastor is saying is not accurate, where are all these prophets, miracles, and wonders that keep happening? Especially today with cell phone cameras KZbin should be filled with videos capturing miracles, wonders, prophecies and supernatural healings

[@TKK0812]

@@GioTummy3463 Film is always open to people saying "That was doctored. That was staged. Those were actors. That didn't happen". There are documentaries (Finger of God, Finger of God 2, Father of Lights, Holy Ghost, Holy Ghost Reborn, Furious Love) all of which I would highly recommend watching that capture miracles, words of knowledge, healing, deliverances etc. I can't speak for other but I have personally seen people healed before my eyes. Two of my best friends vehemently denied that tongues were for today. Then, at a small prayer and worship night, God gave them both an interpretation of a tongue that another person was speaking. They both knew the person was speaking in an unknown language, but to *both* of them they heard perfect Hebrew being spoken and praising God. They each got the exact same interpretation and came to believe in the gift. I have seen countless accurate words of knowledge and prophecies, so many that I wouldn't even know where to begin in telling stories. If you're not seeing these things (and I don't mean you personally), then I would argue you are not earnestly desiring the gifts.

[@mchristr]

If someone tells me they have a private prayer language, I can't very well deny a subjective experience. But the only clear, unambiguous text concerning "tongues" is Acts 2. Every other text is ripe for debate. (BTW, I came to faith in a Four-Square fellowship).

[@KMANelPADRINO]

In response to the claim that cessationism doesn’t limit what God *can* do, I will say that it quite functionally does limit what God *can* do. The cessationist does not doubt the claims of the miraculous simply because they hold them to scrutiny, but they actively disbelieve claims of miracles because of their own doctrine, which is mostly drawn from inferences and speculations on what miracles are for and how God can only use specific kinds of people to do them (in the explanation here, that would be “prophets” and “apostles”). The problem with that is that Paul acknowledged that others who were neither prophets nor apostles within the Church performed gifts of miracles such as healings. Prophecy was apparently another gift and perceived by Paul to be so regular that he wrote regulations for it in the weekly worship (1 Corinthians 11-14). Philip was also neither a prophet nor an apostle, he was a simple table-serving deacon, and yet he was used by God for miracles. The cessationist position quite honestly instructs its adherents on what God will not do, hence, what God *cannot* do. It is like saying how God will not send another messiah because the Messianic role is fulfilled by Jesus. That is why cessationism should be handled carefully and with greater fear because it is not principally a claim upon the abilities of the Church, but rather a claim upon the abilities of God Himself. And that is a much dreaded thing to base so much speculative reason upon. I find it far better to simply adopt the Torah’s principles from Deut 13&18 and Paul’s reasoning from 1 Cor 12 as the regulatory principles for Christian life.

[@eternallyfearless8537]

You make a good point, & I would never presume to say God can’t do something if He really wanted to, but it seems apparent that certain gifts of the Spirit such as (genuine) tongues, raising the dead, etc are no longer in effect in our age. God has seen fit to have it this way, & cessationism is more about just acknowledging that fact than drawing a hard line and saying God CAN’T do it.

[@KMANelPADRINO]

@@eternallyfearless8537 Limitations of knowledge and lack of considerations are key here. What do you do with the claims of soldiers on battlefields or people in war torn nations of people who should have died but were spared, or who did die but were raised? The time between pronouncement of death and raising coincides with some episodes from Scripture, such as Paul raising the young man Eutychus. There are also numerous reports of healings. And what of the Church accounts from history where miracles caused entire tribes and populations in Europe and beyond to bow the knee to King Jesus? Do you have the gumption based solely on a theological assumption borne from speculation to dismiss all of those things wholeheartedly? I confess that I do not. God does as God wants. I do not risk blaspheming Him of His works.

[@eternallyfearless8537]

I don’t have all the answers, I will readily admit that, but there’s also no denying that if the Charismatic Movement were anything like the apostolic age, we’d be seeing healings, spontaneous speaking of foreign languages, dead being raised, people handicapped from birth able to walk, etc and it doesn’t do the body of Christ any favors to lie & say these things are happening in churches when they are not. It CAN happen & I have no idea whether it has happened in certain specific circumstances but it is no longer a present phenomenon in the Church or Charismatic churches wouldn’t need to resort to scams such as Todd White’s leg-lengthening nonsense in order to attract attention. People would be lining up far and wide for YEARS to be healed rather than rolling their eyes. God can heal, perform miracles, do all the things Scripture says but He is choosing in His providence to use Scripture primarily in this age, to bring believers to knowledge of Him.

[@KMANelPADRINO]

@@eternallyfearless8537 Pointing to modern charlatans and letting their actions control how you preach and think about God is as foolhardy as it would have been using Simon Magus to point to the apostles. Your current position and fears concerning some charismatic circles who are already heretical in other ways is not sound nor is it wise. I urgently request that you reconsider your disposition, especially when, in this interaction and in so small a number of exchanges, you are already theologically on your heels in defense and appealing to men whom even so-called charismatics do not all claim.

[@eternallyfearless8537]

Setting aside all the charlatans, I am not seeing any of this taking place in the Charismatic church in general. I can’t speak for every single event but I would assume if a genuine, God fearing Charismatic church was raising people from the dead or had healed someone blind from birth, or it’s congregation suddenly started speaking foreign languages fluently with no former knowledge, it would be a well known event, and I haven’t heard anything of the sort. I’m just being honest 🤷🏻‍♀️ I totally respect your position but I have to disagree with you. I’m not seeing anything of the sort, it’s a reach, & I have to disagree. That’s pretty much all I have to say about it. Be blessed ❤️

[@jesussaves3741]

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:18 There is absolutely no scripture that indicates that what is listed in the verse above should cease. Jesus himself affirms in John 14:12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father." Either this is true or it is not to try and explain away such a clear verse is not the proper attitude towards God's Word. I would say the reason we do not see these signs as much in the modern day is the same reason the disciples in Matthew 17 could not cure the epileptic boy with the demon. The apostles were comissioned by Jesus to heal the sick and cast out demons yet were unable to do so for this boy. When they asked Jesus why they couldn't his answer was not that it wasn't God's will but because of their unbelief. The modern church is like the apostles in Matthew 17 we have these great promises for healing and miracles but because of our unbelief we like the apostles fail to accomplish what Christ commisioned us to do. The only remedy for unbelief is the Word the more time we spend in the Word and in prayer the stronger our faith becomes to where we can see the signs that Mark 16:18 says we should see.

[@borisvandruff7532]

You are exactly the kind of charismatic that drives people away. The reason that child was not healed in Matthew 17 was because God did not ordain it to happen. Everything that happens, other than that which is sinful, is ordained by God. Maybe the Spirit isn’t effective today because charismatics like yourself do not possess the humility to put yourself away long enough for the Spirit to work. Just saying “in Jesus’ name” and believing for something doesn’t make it happen. God makes it happen according to His perfect will, not our works. This is why the reformed community calls out charismatics so much. The utter lack of humility masquerading as “power in the name of Jesus” betrays you.

[@jesussaves3741]

I do not consider myself a charismatic I attend a reformed Baptist church. Many Charismatics go too far with prosperity and tongues and therefore I do not consider myself one. I do however believe healing as well as the other gifts are for today. How else could one take such scriptures as “himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses” or “ the prayer of faith shall save the sick”? And in regards to the boy not being healed you are adding your own opinion as to why the boy was not healed. The disciples asked Jesus privately why they couldn’t heal the boy and he told them plainly “because of your unbelief” he did not say because God ordained it so. To say otherwise is to discount what Jesus plainly said. Jesus actually rebukes them for their unbelief because they were commissioned by him in Matthew 10:1 to heal the sick and cast out devils. God is sovereign and does work independent of human agents however he has ordained in this age to work through his church. Furthermore God does and always will respond to faith have you never read where Jesus said “ thy faith hath made thee whole” or “according to your faith be it unto you” or “ Go your way as you have believed be it unto you”?

[@koreywilkinson2860]

@@jesussaves3741 very well said. I was thinking all the same things you said and You articulated them well.

[@jesussaves3741]

@ Korey Wilkinson Thanks. I tried to only say what God has said in his Word on the subject nothing more nothing less.

[@toolegittoquit_001]

Not all agree with the long ending of Mark

[@XxlightxX]

Cessationist makes more sense and nobody is doing miracles.

[@farmlife09]

So what your saying we know everything. ? “Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:8-12‬ ‭NIV‬‬ Do you know all things. Do you know him even as you are known.? Who is him? That pual is talking about. Him who he will see face to face. Is that not Christ. Sorry. I haven’t seen Christ face to face. I don’t k ow everything there is to know about Christ. So how has knowledge ended. If prophecy has needed. It has ended because knowledge has ceased. “At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭19:10‬ ‭NIV‬‬ So I guess we no longer hold the testimony of Jesus? A thought if you tell someone something that is going to happen in the future you have just prophesied. Know will it truly come true. But if you declare the return of Jesus you have prophesied. We are all prophets. Because we proclaim the coming of Jesus Christ. We all have the spirit of prophecy in us. Look I’m not a “charismatic” the Pentecostal church lacks so mischievous decrement when it comes to spirits. But cessation teaching is absolutely a false teaching. Out of it comes the end of teaching how to practically pray for healings a sign that is supposed to follow all believers. There is not one scripture for that ceasing and the casting out of demands. They haven’t left this world. The demands that where in people in the days of Jesus are still hear. And the cincationest. Don’t teach freedom from demands they don’t see them and consequently believes are never set free. Witch is not what Christ came to do he came to set us free from the powers of darkness not to fill us with head knowledge and leave us bound to Satan and sin. I am sorry but my God has proven this guy wrong. The true prophets have been given a word from the lord. And America is about to fall even know the prophecy’s are being fulfilled. I don’t want to start a huge debate I just pray someone will consider my words and search the scripture deeper. Knowledge hasn’t ceased Tongues haven’t ceased Prophecy hasn’t ceased Healings and gifts of healings haven’t ceased. We all have authority to heal My 4 and 5 year old have proven this to be true. I love the faith of a child And casting out demands or rather the presence of demands inside people has not ceased. And if we do not take authority over them they will take authority over us. And finally there is only one Holy Spirit the same spirit as the apostles received in acts two. And it hasn’t changed. It can’t it’s the spirit of God and God does not change.

[@BillKron]

Excellent job, as always, Joel. As I have been coming to terms with the postmillennial view of eschatology, I’ve had an idea around this in the back of my mind. Maybe I can try out this brief thesis on you. I’m not sure it’s an original thought, but I haven’t heard anyone talk about it yet. So, I’m probably wrong. 😊 Anyway, here it is: Have you ever considered the miraculous (sign) gifts as part of the transition from the old covenant to the new (Hebrews 8:13)? I’m particularly thinking of how the baptism of the Holy Spirit conferred on both Jews and gentiles alike (the pattern we see throughout the book of Acts) seemed to serve as a way to evidence to the Jews that it was indeed God’s intention to bring in the gentiles, along with the believing remnant of Israel? This transitional period referenced, I think, in Hebrews 8:13, helps me make sense of 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, as the final dissolution of the old covenant takes place in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.

[@RightResponseMinistries]

That’s a very interesting thought. You may be on to something. I’m not sure though. Still fleshing some of this stuff out myself.

[@BillKron]

@@RightResponseMinistries Hey, I appreciate you considering it. I didn’t hear you call me a heretic, so I’m going to assume I’m safe to explore this further. Thank you for all of your excellent content. You are definitely on my “can’t miss” list.

[@RightResponseMinistries]

@@BillKron definitely worth exploring. Thanks for your support and encouragement brother. I’m truly grateful.

[@jakeabbatacola5092]

I agree 100%. The sign gifts were for a purpose: to transition, to verify, to establish. Great way of putting it into words. I think that view fits in perfectly with a covenant theology perspective as well.

[@zacdredge3859]

Hmm, I think Hebrews 8 is more focused on the obsolescence of the Old Covenant, but if you look at Hebrews 2 it validates the idea that the sign gifts were for establishing the foundation of the church and the Gospel as encoded in the New Testament.

[@solideomusical]

There is much discussion among 'discernment ministries' about the accuracy of prophecies being the gauge of whether a person today is a 'true prophet' or a 'false prophet.' It seems to me that applying this OT standard to an office that does not exist today is an error. If the office of 'prophet' does not exist today then, by definition, everyone who claims to be a prophet would be a false prophet - regardless of accuracy. Am I missing something?

[@DefenderoftheCross]

I think most of the discernment ministries are just assuming arguendo that the office still exists, but even if so the favorite Charismatic prophets are still false

[@GioTummy3463]

Acts 2:17 please

[@Zilam]

I think we do so in trying to show abundantly they are false. Its like saying...okay, IF this office were to exist today, you'd have to achieve this mark. You miss that mark, so regardless, you are a false prophet and we shouldn't listen to you. This is helpful because there are so many who believe prophecy is still valid. If we just come out and say "No", there is no dialogue, and people are not convinced. I would have been one of those people that believed in prophecy for this day and age, but because of cessationists fleshing out their arguments beyond "No", it helped convinced me of the cessationist view. If they would have shut down the argument at the gate, I would have ignored them and continued to think that I might someday be a prophet (I feel so cringe even typing that out now)

[@solideomusical]

@@Zilam I also used to believe in all that so I understand. I suppose the reasoning has merit but it still seems backwards to me. Here is a scenario: one of these "prophets" makes a single, detailed prediction and, against all odds, it comes true. By the 'accuracy' standard would we call him a true prophet? I think not. He could have made a lucky guess, a calculated guess or had some 'inside information' (including demonic input). He is not a prophet because he was right; he *is not a prophet* because the office no longer exists (per the cessationist position). Here's another: said "prophet" gives a prophecy but it is about something to happen 20 years from now. Are we to remain undecided about whether he is a prophet for 20 years until such time that we can compare the prophecy with the outcome? Again, I would say 'no.' However, if we say "he is not a prophet because the office has ceased" then the results cease to be the test or even an indicator of veracity- he is false and that is that. These are my own musings- I have never heard anyone say it but it does seem consistent with the cessationist position.

[@treychastain4686]

@@GioTummy3463 what do you mean?

[@primecuts13]

It would be better to eliminate the phrase "charismatic." It's a loaded phrase and there are many mislead charismatic theological positions. Better to argue against Continuation if you're a cessationist. Charismatics are low hanging fruit and strawmen.

[@theMolluskMan]

Ephesians 4:7-16 isn’t clearly referring to the gifts of the Spirit, but only to “grace according to the measure of Christ’s gift.” The passage is talking about grace for the sake of unity, not charisms. We’re reading too much into the text.

[@theMolluskMan]

The original Greek in verse 8 does not say χάρισμα (charismata), but simply δόματα (domata). Not the gifts of the Spirit, but simply gifts.

[@theMolluskMan]

Verse 8 references Psalm 68:18: “You ascended on high, leading a host of captives in your train and receiving gifts among men, even among the rebellious, that the Lord God may dwell there.” We have a problem. In Psalms, Christ is receiving gifts from men (corroborated by NASB, NIV, and KJV). But in Ephesians, Paul says that Christ gave gifts to men. Why would he reverse the verse? Is this a mistranslation of the text, or a transformation of its meaning? Either way, the gifts David and Paul both reference cannot possibly be the Gifts of the Spirit if they can go both ways. Man cannot give to God supernatural gifts, but only God can give man the gifts of His Spirit.

[@BEABEREAN10]

@@theMolluskMan this is a very broad term that is determined by context. And you actually quoted it wrong - the Psalm say he received gifts FOR men. Not from them. Big difference. Psalms 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. h3947. לָקַח lâqaḥ; a primitive root; to take (in the widest variety of applications): - accept, bring, buy, carry away, drawn, fetch, get, infold, x many, mingle, place, receive(-ing), reserve, seize, send for, take (away, -ing, up), use, win.

[@dougtodd24]

How would you liken the offices of Evangelist and Pastor in Ephesians to (or differentiate them from) the positions of bishop/elder and deacon mentioned to Timothy and Titus? My query is kind of curious as to whether an evangelist and a bishop/elder are (in a sense) the same type of position. Thanks and God bless.

[@RightResponseMinistries]

A “pastor” would be synonymous with a bishop/elder. A deacon is meant to work in conjunction with elders in the local church to free them up for the primary focus on a ministry of the Word. And the office of “evangelist” has been mostly missing. Paul Washer would be a good example of someone who is an evangelist (not pastor), but we need more.

[@dougtodd24]

@@RightResponseMinistries Thanks so much. I agree re Paul Washer as a great example and that yes we definitely need more. Thanks again.

[@TKK0812]

@@RightResponseMinistries Why do we "need" any more evangelists? God has already picked who will be saved and who won't. Whether we have 1 evangelist in the Church or 1 million, it won't contribute to anymore or any less people being saved.

[@jseehowitsbeen3177]

We need to evangelize and make disciples and spread the Gospel because that’s what God and Jesus command us to do. We do these things out of obedience.

[@C_James_O]

I was born again when I audibly heard Gods voice. I have been a Christian ever since! His word is alive!

[@Chirhopher]

Hebrews 1

[@C_James_O]

@@Chirhopher what about it?

[@mikeconnor4736]

Improbable

[@C_James_O]

@@mikeconnor4736 thank The Lord you are not the author of my salvation.

[@mikeconnor4736]

@@C_James_O this is true. Better He who foreknowledge, predestined, called, justified, and will glorify to be the author and finisher of our faith. This would all be according to His word, not some audible voice and sound we imagine.

[@DefenderoftheCross]

Hebrews 1:1-2 seems to indicate prophecy has ceased.

[@TKK0812]

How so?

[@glennmchenry6198]

@@TKK0812 kzbin.info/www/bejne/g3unnp18hat5gMU God speaks to us through the Bible only.

[@TKK0812]

@@glennmchenry6198 Yeah that argument doesn't follow in the least. Jesus said that it is better that He goes away so that the Helper will come. Paul, under inspiration of that very Helper, commanded us to pursue love yet earnestly desire that we may prophesy. You do believe the Son and Spirit are in perfect unity, correct? People often parrot this same argument saying "The Bible is sufficient". Well of course it is, in that it's everything that we need for faith and practice. However, people conveniently forget the practice part in that the word actually commands we do things, such as desire to prophesy. God sovereignly decided that prophecy in the church would be one of the ways in which He encourages, strengthens and comforts His church (1 Cor 14:3). So to say that "He speaks through His word only" is to only tell part of the story.

[@wmarkfish]

A man is double minded who can not decide which side to part his hair so he parts both sides. He must spend an inordinate amount of time in front of a mirror.

[@lavieenrose5954]

LOL 😂

[@braedonseal4169]

Except 1 Cor 12:28 uses the same language and makes no distinguishing of chronology. Ephesians doesn't make any chronological distinction either (because you're adding that into the text where it isn't). You can't have integrity and read 1 Corinthians 12 in your church. You're changing what this text means and ignoring other ones that disagree with you. That's evil.

[@josephtripoli5069]

Joel, If this is what you truly believe, then how do you reconcile your leadership of others during the time of your ministry within the Vineyard Christian Fellowship (certainly charismatic... and most definitely not cessationist) ? How did you personally pivot on all those people you had been teaching and leading with such truth & conviction... but then, apparently, that same truth was no longer valid, nor did it even exist ? Hmmm... I'm curious.

[@thenoob9379]

how is it that Jeff Durbin isn't a cessationist? He talks about his son Augustine being miraculously healed. Or is cessationism just another camp for christians to divide ourselves into?

[@ericl3308]

Typically cessationists don't deny healing. They just deny that anyone today has the gift of healing.

[@RightResponseMinistries]

I hold the same view as Durbin. God heals.

[@Zilam]

God heals, but men themselves are not doing the healing that we have seen in the NT.

[@patriciagrant6687]

👍🏾👍🏾💯

[@Chirhopher]

Great job, Brother! We exegeted the Holy Text to prove the 4 fold and that They Continue. We switched from exegeting to giving personal views a bit for the actual Cessation. i would love to see that plainly in the Text, the way the Continuation is. And those of You about to push back without Holy Scripture in It's Context; i just want Ya to Know, i am a full blown Militant PURITAN slave of CHRIST.

[@BEABEREAN10]

1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift (charismata); waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Seems to be another that says gifts will continue until the return of Christ. I assume you're post millennial so this probably doesn't change anything for you since you already believe Christ returned. But I was you to see that it is not unfounded to believe the gifts continue today. In fact, the true burden of proof lies on cessationists because there are 3 clear verses that teach the gifts until Christs return. That being said, it is strange to me that post mill believers don't hold to continuationism since they are trying to establish Christ kingdom across the earth, and your belief is that the unity of the faith is what will bring Christs kingdom.

[@janwells2199]

EVERY example of "gifts" I witnessed did not match Bible accounts or simple logic. Chronic repitition of "tongues" phrases were "translated" to linear paragraphs. Not a single "prophecy" came true. "Holy Laughter"? "Slain in the Spirit"? Reeked of attention seeking & craving to be in the "in crowd".

[@theverystones2643]

When you say you’re a cessationist, I see you say prophecy has ceased, but do you also believe healing has ceased? I really can’t understand Christians that take that position, and it wasnt really addressed in this video.

[@RightResponseMinistries]

I believe that God still heals. Not through declarations, but prayers of petition (James 5:14). God is sovereign over healing. Sometimes he heals, sometimes he does not.

[@gch8810]

I think you have a misunderstanding of what cessationists believe. We do not believe that God has ceased to perform miracles. We do believe that God has ceased to give people the apostolic gifts.

[@primecuts13]

Cessationism as a doctrine is unfounded in scripture and disproven by history. There are plenty if credible examples of divine miracles flowing through the saints to places of need. This theology has more to do with the modern ideals of the enlightenment than a solid understanding of scripture in context with its original audience and the outgrowth of the faith through the centuries. This video could have been 5 minutes. There is a lot of excess repetition that creates the appearance if weight in the argument by just repeating the same line over and over, but there is no meat in this argument as presented.

[@StAnthonyPaduaRadTrad]

Your first sentence is correct. Can not be proven from scripture nor history

[@JustAworm82]

Evening Brother, As with the the Apostles and Prophets, Holy Spirit is responsible for all miracles and signs. God provided (through the Holy Spirit) the Apostles and Prophets with signs and abilities to demonstrate their anointing into church leadership. Is there one viable truly anointed Apostle or Prophet alive today that has these God given abilities? If there were Im quite sure I wouldn’t have to ask. My point is that signs and miracles today as you said flow through the body via the Holy Spirit, Pastor’s argument is simply that they are no longer done exclusively through just a single or group of people/persons. Blessings

[@Psalm144.1]

@Caleb P I read his comments and they had nothing to do with believing miracles they saw or did not see with their own eyes.

[@GioTummy3463]

Acts 2:17

[@GioTummy3463]

@Caleb P Acts 2:17 New International Version 17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.(A) Your sons and daughters will prophesy,(B) your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

[@johnandrosarios.7685]

Joel: It appears you are using the ESV. If so, you must also believe that: 1. God is angry every day, as oppossed to angry with the wicked every day (Ps.7:11); 2. God doesn't "hate divorce" as the NKJV says in Mal. 2:16; 3. That Mattew did not reference the Messianic prophecy in Matt. 27:35; 4. Christ did not say that fasting is required to cast out demons (Mk. 9:29), and on and on. ESV is not a solid translation and I ask that you do a side by side study of the ESV vs. NKJV and you will see its weakening and softening of God’s Word. Thank you.

[@Chirhopher]

Each translation has it's problems -as they are indeed, Translations! We refer to the Original languages.

[@RightResponseMinistries]

1) I believe God is angry with the wicked. 2) I believe God hates divorce. 3) Haven’t thought about this one yet. 4) I believe fasting is in the text. Conclusion: I believe the ESV is a helpful translation in general, but there are multiple texts where I prefer the King James. I don’t hold to the “TR” position, but I’m sympathetic towards and respect many who do (AKA: Doug Wilson) Hope that helps clarify where I’m at.

[@johnandrosarios.7685]

@@RightResponseMinistries Thank you for your ("right") response! Yes, I like the way the ESV "reads" but in my "read through the bible" this last year, I read ESV and NKJV side by side, and found so many places where ESV changes or even eliminates passages, and it is always to soften or weaken the text. I am not a student of the original languages nor of the various early lines of manuscripts (I know enough to be dangerous!), so my comparisons were merely English to English. However, like Doug Wilson says, if the KJV was good enough for Moses, it's good enough for me (OK, he didn't say that, but I could imagine him smiling and saying that!). Oh, and in the Mark 9 passage, the ESV eliminates the phrase "and fasting" when Jesus spoke about the casting out of some demons (but does note this omission in the footnotes, as it does with many of its changes). Dios te bendiga.

[@primecuts13]

The argument as presented is nothing more than conjecture and opinion. Big assumptions are being made with almost no evidence. Making a big claim like cessation of the gifts of the spirit (in part or whole) it's a massive claim. Best go back to the drawing board.

[@gch8810]

It’s not. Making a claim that God is still giving people the apostolic gifts without evidence is quite the claim

[@marytitus2874]

3:45 This kind of sounds um made up. Like im not trying to go out of my way to be rude, I want to sincerely know how people get these answers. Also I've heard alot of crazy people that aren't calvinist so I'm always listening for when something sounds off. Like if I listen to a sermon on sermon index by someone reformed there might be some truth, maybe God wants me to hear something, but the whole time I'll be assuming they have flawed perspectives that I have to on guard for.

[@bananaman5554]

the Holy Spirit never stopped, nor did the gifts ever went away. God does talk to all brothers and sisters, as our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the best teacher, guiding us to do the Father's will, convicting us when we do wrong, comforting us in hard times, helping understand Scripture. The Holy Spirit is God.... so why teach that He stopped? He never stops working.... He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

[@adrianpasillas3832]

The gifts, as well as the apostles and prophets, went away after the death of John. The apostles and the gifts, and the prophets were foundational, hence, are not needed today. But the Holy Spirit still works in our lived, and God still does miracles, because HE, not his children, are sovereign...

[@8784-l3b]

@@adrianpasillas3832 you wrote: The gifts, as well as the apostles and prophets, went away... This is against scripture. The scripture says these will remain " until we all come ". So these remain until we all are perfect and unified. Faith is hard. That is why certain false concepts were created by men. To make it easier. He gave some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, for the equipping of the saints, for the work of service, and for the building up of the body of Christ, until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, into a complete man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, -excerpt Ephesians 4 It is also clear from Revelation, that those two prophets that will be known globally, haven't begun as yet.

[@lewislibre]

Lol

[@ardenscott169]

Honestly, you didn’t do a good job at all. I was waiting to hear how you were going to prove from Ephesians chapter 4 that 2 of the 5 (or 4 according to your interpretation) ministries are discontinued, but you didn’t. Instead you started jumping to other Scriptures. Furthermore, the Bible said that the Apostles laid the foundation but did the Bible say that’s all apostles were called to do? Weren’t Paul and Barnabas called to spread the gospel to foreign lands (Acts 13:2-5)? Or is it that this apostolic responsibility has also ceased. Hmm, I’m sorry but your exegesis is very inconsistent, incomplete and unconvincing.