Why Avatar has the Most Ironic Soundtrack of All Time

What happens when the soundtrack and the film accidentally tell the exact same story?
You get Avatar: The Last Bluebender
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Sources and Links:
Dr. Bryant's write-up of her experience
ethnomusicolog...
Dr. Bryant's interview on myouterspace's youtube channel
• Ethnomusicalogist Wand...
Notanothermusichistorycliche's blog post about the Pythagorean Comma
notanothermusi...
12tone's video on the same subject
• Is Music Really A Univ...
The complete list (in order) of World Music examples that I used
• Kulning - Calling home...
• Thsukhi - folk dance o...
• Vietnamese work song -...
• Burundi Girls sing son...
• 78th Fraser Highlander...
• Kalenda maya - villema...
• Yelli - Baka women "yo...
• Maryam Akhondy sings t...
• Giacinto Scelsi - Tre ...
• Värttinä - Lasetus
• Three connected songs
• Yurok Brush Dance Demo...
As well as the vocalist examples
• Le Mystere des Voix Bu...
• Yaffa Yarkoni יפה ירקו...
• Nina Burmi | Mishra Bh...
• Nami Nami - Traditiona...
And the clip of Tony Hinnigan that I used
• Apocolypto Sessions 20...
And the clip of the Gamelan ensemble that I used
• Sound Tracker - Gamela...
let me know if I missed anything, there was a lot of information in this video and I want to make sure everyone gets cited!

[@TheSpacecraftX]

"From Oklahoma to South Dakota" being used to describe a breadth of all people is unbelievably funny.

[@TimOdell]

Sooo... Nebraska and (reaches deep into memory of flyover states) Kansas?

[@blackburn1111]

lol it's like, a chunk of the plains

[@TheSpacecraftX]

@@blackburn1111 Cultures spanning across such vast areas as... a portion on the USA.

[@blackburn1111]

@@TheSpacecraftX i know right? So dumb. I seriously want to hear those demos they made. It sounds so awesome.

[@Liggliluff]

To me it's just some random place in USA to another random place in USA.

[@elimusic69]

James Cameron: *wants unrecognisable music* James Horner: *makes unrecognisable music* James Cameron: ö

[@billrich9722]

Hur hur. Original meme.

[@arifall3n]

Hua Hua, original comment making fun of original comment

[@billrich9722]

Ari Ibarra You are the problem you are pointing me out to be.

[@Nanami_Mitaka]

@@arifall3n mum @billrich dad please stop fighting

[@dominantwolf4593]

It is possible that the original music did sound like shit 🤷‍♂️ I mean there are a lot of different types of music out there and each has bangers and garbage, who knows 🤷‍♂️

[@DoartYT]

I WANNA HEAR THOSE DEMOS SO BAD!

[@javierivanreyes8608]

How would we go about getting this done???

[@karmapolice247]

@@javierivanreyes8608 probably have sideways start a gofundme or petition to either retrieve that score, or pay to have that soundtrack done that way again, or start collecting these interesting sounds and finding a composer to give this a shot.

[@CherryBomb_Games]

Same!

[@merryberry6576]

@@karmapolice247 These are all great ideas, it is a corporation after all though, so they'd need the incentive of people wanting it and the ability to make a profit to actually begin considering it.

[@Сайтамен]

@@karmapolice247 Maybe they will use them in the sequels some day...

[@uthertheking]

"Something that could be understood by all from Oklahoma to South Dakota." I love this statement. Something meant to be global actually being restricted to a vertical strip of 700 miles. I'm picturing audiences all over the world scratching their heads and confusedly looking around at each other in theaters when the scene plays, while people in Nebraska and Kansas are openly weeping.

[@glanni]

I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as James Cameron's genius wit unfolds itself on their cinema screens. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂 I'm sorry, that's what sprout up in my mind when I read your last sentence. You're right though! It's so idiotic that he actually just had American audiences in mind. Ugh, Hollywood..

[@hugofolpp1753]

When I heard that I audibly reacted "Tha- that's not all. Wha-?"

[@ScythPlayz]

ok but no one cares about that lmao

[@jameslivanski2914]

so it was aimed at native americans?

[@Homesicktraveler]

​@@ScythPlayzok, but literally everyone does?🤨

[@devandevan1403]

I read the title as “iconic”, not “ironic”, and was confused the whole video about why he had a negative tone

[@kehammer100]

I don't feel so alone, now. A little dumb, but not alone. 😂

[@makennabinder5727]

Same, it took me awhile to figure it out.

[@justjack1888]

I read “ironic” and wondered if it’s a typo

[@tinytuzi8167]

Now I feel stupid. Why did you have to point that out?!

[@darkphoenix2]

I read it that way and was confused before even watching the video because I can't remember anything about the music.

[@HERO_POSTING]

Thats... actually really tragic, I would've enjoyed listening to something like that. A simple fix would've been to play the alien soundtracks in the navi scenes, and the traditional blockbuster soundtracks when the military is on scene. Further emphasizing the war between the two parties.

[@1sakura0girl1]

That actually would have been pretty cool and you would not only get visual cues on their differences but an audio one

[@Hesperell]

The problem is, these stories are always about getting the audience to Sympathize With The Other and feel guilty about their own identity; this is however hard to accomplish when the Other is actually truly alien to one's sensibilities, including the aesthetic, and the Bad Guy is more familiar and relatable. If the villainous humans were identified with the familiar sounds, textures, and harmonies of movie heroism and the virtuous aliens identified with textures and tones not only unfamiliar but possibly unpleasant and even anxiety-inducing, this might have the wrong effect. In fact, this is why the film completely failed to resonate with me, and in fact made me angry, particularly the scene where the entire planet Earth and human race are written off as dead and worthless by the wise Navi spirit thing. Like, this film was written by humans. Navi dialogue was written by humans. No Navi were involved in the making of this movie. So it's pure, irredeemable misanthropy, and I came to really dislike the imaginary aliens invented by humans to tell a fundamentally anti-human story, and an analogue to one which treats the part of the human race in which I have my own roots as, again, spiritually dead and worthless. Among my people, I am a mutant; I do not possess our endemic, genetic self-hatred.

[@mishalzee4659]

@@Hesperell I took it as heroism and good spanning across cultures. I never saw this film as portraying humanity as a whole, but more on the individuals and their choices, whether to harm others or stand up for them.

[@colbyzur4642]

Stalin'sDietAndFitness funny how someone in a KZbin comment section can think of this great and symbolic idea but millions of dollars cant

[@SuperLlama42]

It seems like such a basic concept right? To give either side of a conflict their own music style to give them more of their own identity? Hell, I'd add more of an industrial sound to the space marines or whatever they're called to play up the technology vs nature aspect. It would be something to make the space marines sound more villainous. But I'm not James Cameron, so what the fuck do I know about anything?

[@OllavoTozzi]

"There's literally nothing that sounds more european than brass" ... Well, never thought about that, but yeah hahahaha

[@helenl3193]

Also strong European conquests/imperialism connotations. Our armies used bugles/brass, fifes, and drums. For centuries those marching bands, etc, were probably feared by local/indigenous populations! (just a guess, but I'd be running in the opposite direction if in their place!)

[@spankeyfish]

I can't remember his name but that's why the guy who did the music for the Battlestar Galactica reboot specifically avoided using the most commonly used orchestral sections, brass and strings, to make the world feel more alien.

[@Turt3752]

I mean jazz is a thing. Can’t tell me a jazz bone solo sounds too traditionally European lol. I agree, just joking around

[@ccricers]

I think brass just became very popular for general "royal" connotations even when places are non-European. Take for instance Black Panther, you hear a lot of brass in the score for the shots of Wakanda. Would've been nice to introduce more native sounds but they weren't felt strongly enough.

[@Turt3752]

ccricers but that connotation is because of Western influence

[@Maxarcc]

"Keep your ears open to unusual sounds. Things that you may find a little uncomfortable now, with a little bit of listening, some of those may become the favourite sounds in your musical world." What a great closing statement from her. There's so much beautiful music we could discover if we'd be a little bit more adventurous.

[@scribblesketch]

I'm now sad and mourning for a culture that doesn't exist

[@blubberingbuffoons]

Latin music for me

[@Nordicsz]

Can I just LOL at the statement that everyone should relate to the music "from Oklahoma to South Dakota"? Why not just make them space cowboys singing country if that is how narrow the recipients are supposed to be. Why take all these nations that have nothing to do with English, the west and the US, to make a song for the US?

[@radiofloyd2359]

Because the US is ClEaRlY all that exists!!

[@danielm739]

Na'vis be jodeling

[@billdebillbill]

There are two states in between Oklahoma and south Dakota! And all four of those states are in the great plains!

[@Nordicsz]

@@billdebillbill He didn't even go from the top (North Dakota) of US to the bottom (Texas).

[@ffnendhgrgd]

I understand my country's politics a lot better now

[@darksouladb]

Not to mention, all money and research in the logo using "papyrus" font.

[@1-bitbraincelle981]

Dude watch SNL they did a skit with a papyrus font and its fucking hilarious watch its soo good

[@strikerbowls791]

The papyrus font is amazing and beautiful

[@krishnanandnair6274]

@@1-bitbraincelle981 Ryan Gosling crushed that episode. Every. Sketch.

[@pjalne]

Fittingly, I've seen Papyrus used to evoke South American, African, Asian, Australian and Norse cultures. It's the typeface hacks use when they need a quick and free "universally ethnic" font. So it's perfect for Avatar.

[@darksouladb]

@@strikerbowls791 yeah, so it is Comic Sans, but every font has something to tell, comic sans its meant to be a "comic like" font, originaly meant for children in microsoft bob. papyrus is extremly overused, is not a bad font, not at all, but it already come to me as LAZY design, is like using "Trajan" for every single medieval film.

[@coolj23097]

Can we get a petition going for them to release those demo’s?!?! I’m really interested in hearing them.

[@benjiusofficial]

That'd be immense. I loooove foreign music.

[@coastersplus]

#ReleaseTheBryantHornerCut

[@GuytanoMartorano]

-Jr- honestly. The though of never getting to hear them is a little heartbreaking

[@samyrandome425]

@@benjiusofficial that's a pretty broad description lol

[@Crosshill]

@@samyrandome425 i loooove hearing things i havent heard before

[@plootyluvsturtle9843]

the fact that they actually called it unobtainium will never not be funny to me

[@SailorDoggo]

Only for English speaking people

[@mcrain1283]

what so funny about it

[@drlumbago7907]

Might not be the most original name but it’s not like he invented it. The term has existed in sci-fi for a while, there’s even a Wikipedia page for it.

[@Itisoverthere-rw]

@@SailorDoggo Dude, everyone knows english. It is ridiculous for us as well.

[@SailorDoggo]

@@Itisoverthere-rw You are delusional

[@donnamitsuki281]

James Cameron: I want it to sound non-western,something never heard before **it sounds literally alien,something nobody heard before** James Cameron: **surprised Pikachu.jpg**

[@celestialdesma6563]

Pbbt

[@EllieKimberley]

No! Make it make Christian again!!

[@Abznth]

@@EllieKimberley don't joke about that

[@jaimegonzalez2941]

Mm&Peter's Lifestyle it’s funny

[@Abznth]

@@lurkenvoncurken518 I'm not forcing you dude i just want to spread Christ to people

[@edward4840]

"Honey, what did you think of the film?" "It was good, but there wasn't enough of Jake weaving. The book implied there'd be more"

[@thetbhresistance7042]

You could have clothing or weaving more as part of their identity, like maybe give one of the na’bi special clothes once they reach a certain age or something like that, naw just have em look like African tribes lul.

[@Soroboruo]

"Known for weaving" -> cut to shot of a crowd in thongs and nothing else

[@freyjathehealer5559]

Don’t you know the books are always better than the movies. Remember that whole chapter on baby carrying?

[@katyoutnabout5943]

I definitely read “iconic”, not “ironic” in the title and was thoroughly confused for a long time

[@TheHalogen131]

Yeah, me too. First I didn't even want to watch this video, I was like "okay there were a couple nice-sounding songs there, but iconic?", but then I read it again and this was some very good content.

[@cinnastag]

Iconically Ironic

[@nadeen3157]

Same, i was very confused

[@misalive]

@@TheHalogen131 shit im only reading this mid video and only now realising it is ironic. fuck.

[@elpatrico2562]

@@misalive Yeah same. I was like "Okay, but when will the iconic part come?"

[@TheRoomforImprovement]

Cameron: But I don’t like the alien music you made! Horner and Bryant: Then why did you ask for it???

[@muratbayraktar5035]

This vid is even funnier when they didn’t even use any of this cultural stuff in the second movie and came up with more dumbed down stuff to fill in. The irony is golden.

[@raymunrado7569]

Do we have samples of the alien music? Please, you can't tell me we've been COMPLETELY robbed of such innovative style

[@purplefaced_]

This just sounds like the biggest waste of somebody’s time in history, they put in SO MUCH EFFORT. and Cameron was like no.

[@gayminggaymers6491]

He literally said: no ❤️

[@RoninCatholic]

At least they got paid for all this work. Not as good as letting their artistic voices they were paid for actually be heard, but he didn't write them a hot check or anything.

[@dr_lubaba]

@@RoninCatholic yeah cause money is everything

[@RoninCatholic]

@@dr_lubaba Money is the most important part about doing a job for hire. If you want to pay me to grill a burger only to promptly toss it in the trash and make a different burger yourself, you've wasted your time, my time, all the money you spent on my labor, and the ingredients of the burger but since I was compensated for my time I'm only _mildly_ insulted. Money isn't everything, but it's still a lot.

[@vertigelt]

@@RoninCatholic That's the story of every unused (aka "rejected") score ever written.

[@thechangamire3495]

And suddenly I'm depressed at the amount of music that no one has ever heard before and no one ever will.

[@featherycoffee1401]

Ah yes, My favourite, Listening fatigue followed by an existential crisis :)

[@Flashplayer65]

It’s James Horner. You would have heard this music somewhere before lol. (he still was a legend)

[@VerbDoesStuff]

NO. This music will see the light of day someday, if I have anything to say about it.

[@Drachenschnauze]

I really wish i could hear the music

[@henryarguelles602]

Same here.

[@stolfan1234]

"From Oklahoma to South Dakota" James Cameron: Ah yes multiculture

[@OdaSwifteye]

He might as well have said from North Carolina to South Carolina.

[@Skerdy]

I don't want to sound racist here or anything, and I ABSOLUTELY love multiculture... I want to make that clear! ... but just imagine if there were other cultures outside Oklahoma and South Dakota... It cannot happen of course, but... just imagine! It is weird, I know, but just give it a try!... Let our imagination fly free!!! Wow!!!

[@randomknight2585]

I’m guessing he meant the long way around but judging by everything else I doubt it

[@gars129]

Oklahoma's Tiger King is truly exotic and otherwordly.

[@OdaSwifteye]

@Oliver Melo Most of America's population is in the coastal states. Choosing midwestern states is almost amish demographics.

[@UGNAvalon]

This video perfectly explains why Avatar paradoxically feels both “well-made” & “poorly-made” at the same time! - The ppl in charge of the worldbuilding & production put a lot of care into their work. The man in charge of everything ignored their efforts.

[@vanessag368]

Its not that he ignored the work. Not everything you try is working out

[@marshallscot]

​@@vanessag368Yeah, not every single piece of world building is going to fit into the movie. It's remarkable how much Cameron managed to fit into the movie while still telling a cohesive story and keeping the runtime to a mere 3 hours.

[@redjayyz6066]

@@marshallscotthey could’ve just made a show at that point with all this world building involved

[@hardcorelace7565]

James cameron wanted to fully show the avatar universe that he made up. for that he needs money, a lot of it. So for him to actually make all the stuff he wants, he needs to be very successful. So while he will include as much of the lore as possible, he will not try and use things that will probably reduce the audience. A completely new style of music would do that, as would completely alien life. Idk about you but I wanna listen to nice music while watching a movie, not some uber realistic stuff that sounds weird, just like I want to be able to look at the animals and go "that's a neat looking horse" instead of "what the fuck is that eldritch abomination" hence I would not watch movies that are centered around such things and James cameron loses profit, therefore less avatar made, therefore james cameron sad.

[@bananasinfrench]

It's genuinely tragic how much imagination was discarded in order to appeal to the common denominator

[@purplestar703]

Forget the snyder cut I want the Avatar music cut

[@kalahne]

LITERALLY! I want a cut fully scored by Bryant and Horner so bad, oh my god

[@coldpuck]

+ !

[@RageDuck0]

We can annoy them enough to do it like the Snyder cut

[@optillian4182]

#ReleaseTheHornerCut

[@wesleyhunt7599]

Doesn't even have to be the full movie. Just a concept album would be nice.

[@mariacillan9668]

"To be understood by all... from Oklahoma to South Dakota" This reminds me of that joke from Ryan Higa: "Alright guys, I've narrowed it down... Countries all over the United States..."

[@fivetimesyo]

Somebody once asked me if we needed a Mapa Mundi of the United States for class... Guess where he was from...

[@PaulPower4]

Not even that - Oklahoma to South Dakota is literally *four states* (those two, Nebraska, and Kansas). Like at least go Alaska to Florida.

[@wanderingrandomer]

I love that it's not even North Dakota

[@muneiiiii]

I'm not from US, could someone explain me the joke?

[@pokaay3163]

@@muneiiiii oklahoma and south dakota are both states in the US, but the implication of “to be understood by all” implies it would have been across multiple continents and cultures.. its hilarious because the two examples that are framed to sound so far away from each other (again, on a worldwide scale) are in the same *country,* excluding the entirety of the rest of the world and contradicting his attempt at a universal analogy. Ed: unless he really only wanted the soundtrack to appeal to american (or otherwise generally western) audiences, in which case its even funnier that he surmounts “all” to just “people in the west.”

[@kevinpenfold1116]

Guys guys guys. “From Oklahoma to South Dakota” makes complete sense, you just need to go around the Earth the long way. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@lyly_lei_lei]

A better term would’ve been “From Alaska to Fiji, and you can’t go over the International Date Line.”

[@nerobernardino88]

@@lyly_lei_lei "From Greenland to Australia but you must change your angle of travel every 10 seconds and never reverting a previous change."

[@rachelpops9239]

Really Cameron really...

[@lyly_lei_lei]

@Cadee Haugsness It would just be Furniture Mart now.

[@musicalaviator]

From New York to New Jersey

[@veemaxine5257]

I'm so glad you put the part where Eywa sends wildlife charging into battle to help. The score in that scene absolutely yanked me out of the moment. It was so emotional and then suddenly it felt so... Goofy? It was so out of place and seeing this now, it makes sense why

[@birdienator7377]

Probably one of my least favourite moments because the music just doesn't match for that instant, shame cause of the direct next scene with neytiris passionate shouting is acted so well

[@veemaxine5257]

@@birdienator7377 Yes!! The score could have elevated that scene and made it even MORE perfect, but instead it was a cartoonish moment. So unfortunate.

[@tyy2uuu]

i had that too, i was so 'in the moment' till i heard that score and was just dissappointed

[@zarrowthehorse]

Wow I disagree, I've seen this movie dozens of times and never noticed this

[@QuantumCosmos2.0]

Wow the music elevated the triumphant moment of The Pandorians!

[@lancemeibos5588]

"This doesn't sound right to me." "You hired me to make music that nobody has ever heard before, what did you expect?" "I had no idea what to expect, I'd never heard this music before."

[@kaamn1829]

🤣🤣🤣

[@cantthinkofaname5046]

Yeah. sometimes when you experiment, the experiment doesn’t go over well and you have to try something else, for all you know the music while creative, could’ve been garbage because of how basically takes from multiple unrelated cultures whose musical traditions might conflict. People are being so ungenerous for no reason, this sort of thing happens all the time in cinema, it’s not a big deal

[@absta1995]

@@cantthinkofaname5046 Literally the only reasonable take on this whole page. It was clearly an experiment that JC was willing to try, and scrap if it wasn't good enough. Pretty standard practice for any experiment.

[@Jasmixd]

The thing is, people aren't blank slates, objectively judging whether a piecie of music is good or not. Whether we want to or not, we always judge what we hear in the light of what we know and what we are used to. Therefore, it is to be expected that the result of this experiment would not sound good to a western ear, it's a much, much more likely outcome than the opposite. So why waste all the time and money on the ordeal, if what he wanted was something that sounded good to westerners?

[@BackfeetBoi]

@@absta1995 We don't even know what it sounded like. How can you discredit something we don't even know how it sounds? Secondly this is a matter of taste and your comment kinda shows you probably live between Oklahoma to South Dakota. To me the current sound track sounds so bland I would much rather have a failed experiment.

[@Mastermint]

I'm a biologist, and I tell you, I almost weeped in the theater. I mean, I was in bio/eco heaven. Paraphrasing Weaver, I just wanted to take some samples. I apreciated the hell out of how "extra" this movie went. That said, I'd really, really, REALLY love to watch this movie with a completely remade soundtrack, this time ignoring Cameron and just going with what Horner and Dr. Brian come up.

[@Matreats]

I agree!!! I find the world of this movie so fascinating and cool - there's so much time and effort put into it

[@RosyMiche]

I'm in total agreement with you about the biological aspect of the film. I would kill to hear it with the original soundtrack, and a narrative that doesn't turn into a painful white savior story halfway through. Basically, we need a sequel that has nothing to with war, humanity, or conflict, and dives more into the lore that they developed and literally never showed us.

[@feigekatarina5745]

I'm certainly curious. I don't know if I'd like it better, but sheesh, you put it n that much effort and don't use it at ALL! That's just tragic.

[@celestialdesma6563]

@@feigekatarina5745 Yup, I agree. Also, what do the Navi do everyday?

[@HivefleetMagoladon]

@@RosyMiche I'm hoping that they'll try to correct their mistakes in the next film, seeing as they have proof now that it's a profitable franchise with their generic first film, and they can try to be more creative and go back to the original soundtrack and ideas for future films.

[@Abby-km6vr]

*“This is not what nonwestern music sounds like. This is what western audiences think nonwestern music sounds like”*

[@lagunacinematics]

That part

[@MODIRWA]

Abigail Stein I make African music and I can assure you that the world does not know what it sounds like. They always make it easier for people by gentrification

[@indragarg2857]

@@MODIRWA I'm an Indian classical singer, and whenever I hear Indian music in Hollywood or even western KZbin channels they always use some stereotypical music which sounds nothing like our music but still western people think that's how indian classical music is, and hence nobody bothers to corrects them

[@hardstyle3196]

@@indragarg2857 I like Raga Piloo😊

[@shingshongshamalama]

Almost like the soundtrack is just as casually racist as the entire movie.

[@griffynmargetts723]

I am convinced, utterly convinced if they had let the soundtrack be the alien experimentation it could’ve been, this movie would’ve been powerful for a far better reason

[@VirtueCry]

Man, I feel offended for an ethnic group that doesn't even exist.

[@GoodOlChippy1]

A symptom of our time. Feeling offended for fictional things that is.

[@limalepakko6074]

Prepare for all the commenters making the same joke

[@arashparthian_112]

Give them blankets as a apology

[@sorane8910]

Next step, the na'vi theme is Westerwald and Erika

[@pokemonassistant]

@@GoodOlChippy1 I know! People get so upset about any and every display of blatant disrespect these days!

[@cypressbartlett9083]

All that world building, and they still used papyrus font for the title...

[@cxdxvxr]

@Survivor #1776 Hey, what do you mean by this, did they re-do the logo from the first film or have you found one from the sequel? I'd love to see

[@MrMeddyman]

@@cxdxvxr reference to the logo minimalizing meme that zoomers insist is funny I think?

[@STOCKHOLM07]

@@thekneesbee Still looks like crap

[@chaaaargh]

@@STOCKHOLM07 how? it looks better than it did before so.

[@STOCKHOLM07]

@@chaaaargh The bar was that low.

[@Mamenber]

"understood by all from Oklahoma to South Dakota" Oh my god that's the funniest thing I've heard all month

[@yikes3551]

Mamenber from america to america wow what an astronomical distance

[@RailwayPenguin]

I'm assuming their pretty close together in the US

[@kandibandii]

@@RailwayPenguin And as i searched it, there is a city between these two states, which is mentioned in the movie (I did not see the video yet).

[@sjhsoccer]

@@RailwayPenguin I mean, not incredibly close together. Oklahoma is a state that's central in the country and near (not at) the southern boarder where South Dakota a state that's central in the country that's near (not at) the northern boarder, so it's a really really weird analogy to draw.

[@41A2E]

@@sjhsoccer Actually, I am from South Dakota, and have visited Oklahoma, the culture's are actually quite similar. I have no relatives from or around Oklahoma, yet I find I have more in common with people I've met from there that I do with many people in North dakota or Montana. You may have heard of that dialect test where it guesses where you are from based on the words you use, and it actually guessed western oklahoma for me. (Yes it's just an anecdote, but I think it is still somewhat informative)

[@eelacanth]

The way directors blame the audience for these sorts of simplifications is really irritating. How do they know we wouldn't like or understand it if we never get a chance to see it in the first place?

[@thepeanuts55]

We do it through our money vote, it's just that both Avatars have shown to be extremely profitable so they take it to make more stuff like that. If you want to hear more unique soundtracks, I guess we have to make the Dune sequel a blockbuster success.

[@AlX-Ander]

​@@thepeanuts55But the primary reason the film did well was the CGI. The story is blatantly unoriginal, the acting is okay at best, never really challenging the actors, but that didn't matter. The music could've been alien and it wouldn't have made a difference in the profits.

[@Rockerice14]

It’s kinda wild but in a sense that’s their job. Good directors get people who are really good with at their craft and inspire them to make art. Then the director comes in and formats,tweaks, etc to what they made into coherent cohesive marketable content. and that’s the kicker- the designers don’t talk with investors…the directors do. So if you’re trying to convince someone with money that an audience will like it for the purpose to give money in advance? You are going to do your best to know what’s “marketable”. Now is this a good way to make art? Not really. But that’s the system productions are made from.

[@chrisbarnett5303]

@@AlX-Ander Bullshit. Plenty of movies have great CGI and don't make a fraction of Avatar. For example- Dune and Bladerunner 2049. Great CGI, middling box office profits. Avatar speaks to people on a deep level even if it doesn't for you.

[@vendedor_ambulante]

Just like when the show runners from The Witcher blamed their incompetent writing to the audience stupidity.

[@malahamavet]

Good avatar: let's build a rich world with cool cultures by mixing asian ones. Ends up being unique even if you can recognize the inspirations. Blue avatar: let's make a unique unrecognizable culture. Ends up being obvious native American

[@DonVigaDeFierro]

There's only one Avatar. This is James Cameron's furry fapfic...

[@malahamavet]

@@DonVigaDeFierro well said😁👍

[@EspejoSolar]

🤣♥️

[@brightproduction6494]

There language sounds kinda like ancient Germanic/anglos/Celtic (kinda like old English) and modern middle eastern language

[@FarremShamist]

@@DonVigaDeFierro As if furries want these things.

[@theheavenlyfb4071]

Music team: *Makes music that sounds nothing like what people have heard before, sounding so alien that it was perfect for the story" Director:*Doesn't want it cause it sounds like something he hasn't heard before, sounding so alien that it was too weird to him* Music team: "Isn't this what you wanted?" Director: "Yes, but technically no"

[@123mickymouse123]

Whilst it would have been more interesting, the cold harsh truth is that it probably would have alienated large parts of the market as well :/. At the end of the day Avatar was a commercial product, and in that regard it succeeded very well. It's just that it never became much more than that.

[@BulkBrogan.]

More like "yes but I don't liiiiiiiiikeeeee iiiiiiittt" It's like asking your girlfriend if she wants food she says "no I'm not hungry at all" and then eats half your food and all your fries "SorRy I gOt HuNGrYyyYyYYyy"

[@ThayGPrieto]

“[...] understood by all, from Oklahoma to South Dakota”... Yes, all the countries in between!

[@sjs9698]

one of the things i find odd about avatar is how the US (or the UK for that matter...) can see the film & *not* manage to be incredibly called out by it, yet somehow it almost completely managed to avoid being interpreted as an epic 'fuck you' to colonialism... which is like, the *entire* story. how?!

[@wbuck]

Not even NORTH Dakota smh

[@kinslayer202]

There are literally two states between those, Kansas and Nebraska, and all four are relatively similar in culture

[@asther1884]

That is the most american quote ive ever heard

[@jlupus8804]

@@sjs9698 ...because you were too stupid to know how?

[@Natediggetydog]

My favorite part of Avatar 2 is how they threw away the entire alien language they invented for the first film to have everyone speak English the whole time

[@jaeminssocks]

That’s so funny because I was talking with my dad and I pointed out how the Metkayina clan kept picking on the family for being “hybrids” yet they’re literally speaking English lol Edit: yes I’m aware they’re technically speaking na’vi, but regardless it still comes off weird lol so yeah! *no one come for me*

[@cityinsect]

they dont speak english, it just shows it from sully's pov of him understanding them

[@mynameisambertoo7379]

@@cityinsect It still feels cheap. While from a production side of things, you must treat the audience like they are stupid and having subtitles the entire time isn't ideal, it's also not ideal to throw away storybuilding.

[@cityinsect]

@@mynameisambertoo7379 there's still plenty of the language spoken throughout the movie, and it wouldn't be wise to have the entire movie covered with subtitles

[@aolson1111]

@@mynameisambertoo7379 They didn't throw away anything. There's a small scene showing that Jake understands the language so well that it's basically second nature. Plus, it would be stupid to make a movie entirely in a fake language. In the Lord of the Rings, none of the races spoke english, including humans, so Tolkien basically "translated" it for us.

[@bloopdeboop1707]

People: Do exactly as Cameron says, and exactly what he wanted Cameron: Ew who decided this it sounds so *aLieN*

[@sinedddmk8996]

The mothershoking point.

[@sophiaborges6441]

Lmao

[@Grgrqr]

Christ man

[@yufi305]

Oof!

[@yufi305]

@@sinedddmk8996 Amen

[@uninvincibleete]

WHAT!! I took ethnomusicology with Dr. Bryant at PCC like a million years ago, this is blowing my mind lol. Her class was so much fun, and she was such a nice person! She brought in a friend of hers (who's a prince and a globally accomplished drummer??) to play the dundun, and she introduced us not only to dozens of cool instruments but also to why they were such a product of the culture they came from. Super cool lady, great teacher, and I knew she was awesome but I definitely did not realize at age 18 that she was such a Big Deal. This feels so surreal lol.

[@tarnoyanwarrior4706]

PCC as in portland community college?

[@meh2385]

OMG now I wanna take a class with her

[@simonafflerbach3388]

@@tarnoyanwarrior4706 from what I read online it was most likely Pasadena city college

[@kyral4779]

I actually love this channel - I'm not a music student or anything, but the the passion this guy talks with is infectious!!! Everything is so well written and researched I wish this stuff got more recognition than it does :)

[@yureikertia6940]

Same, and it is making me more aware of music in films and god did he blow my mind once or twice- this damn interesting and now i would love to hear the original score they came up with

[@rudeminnesotan]

I mean same too. All that research sideways does speaks to my desire to know everything

[@purple-flowers]

@@rudeminnesotan yeah, one could never guess what I do in college (art student) by looking at my channel subscriptions. Sure I have art channels, but also science, history, linguistic, law, and of course, music.

[@HaveyyBabeyy]

Absolutely the same here! I have never once given thought to the music in movies beyond "o that sound gud" but since finding this channel, I have been consistently blown away by the thought and effort that can be put into the finest details of music for it to make the maximum impact! It's amazing how he takes information that I would have once deemed as "boring" and presents it in such a well thought out and passionate argument, it's just amazing to hear. I have even been able to convince my husband to listen to a few clips and also be blown away haha.

[@hannaberga7063]

Same I understand at most half of what he's saying, but it's just so interesting how much though goes into a musical score and how much symbolism is hidden in there

[@Beacuzz]

The irony about the tree song is that the moment you played the first note i remembered it all. It had such beautiful feeling and a uniqueness that i loved. And now i find out THERE WAS MORE THAT WE DIDNT GET!!!!? If the whole movie was like that I'd probably like it more! I might even love it. But absolutely I'd respect it!!!!

[@Beacuzz]

Also I'm from the US and i dont know the difference between Oklahoma and South Dakota

[@marocat4749]

:( He didnt even make a version of it to hear for people .

[@hallfamily2141]

As a cast member in Pandora, I've had to listen to this god forsaken soundtrack for over 2000 hours. I was afraid to watch this for fear of it triggering my flight or fight response. I can tell you that we rarely meet a fan that even knows the names of the main characters or the difference between a Navi, Avatar, and Banshee. It's weird because they make us learn the lore and then never get to use it unlike when I worked at Galaxys Edge. Also ever since they got rid of the Swotwiyeh drum circle it has never been the same.we have a running joke that the next movie will finally be released when the last person who helped open Pandora has retired or transferred away.

[@raumnika5304]

My dude, my friend, i respect youm

[@Iisho]

It's a shame to know what the music in this film could have been. I seriously commend you for your work, I know nothing about music and such especially for films but it sounds like it was quite a rough time.

[@davidolinger3948]

That’s rough buddy

[@braydencoversbeatles4029]

I can name avatar characters. Jake, nitery... ...

[@muneiiiii]

I always say "The avatars that connected with the big tree" And my dad always corrects me "The Navis that connected to the Soul Tree" 😅🤣

[@JovanKo314]

When this came out, I thought it was just a big blockbuster that capitalized on cutting edge special effects and pretty much nothing else. After learning about everything else that they were trying to do with the movie, I'm beyond disappointed with how much potential they wasted. They could have pushed the boundaries of literally EVERYTHING. This literally could have been the new LOTR with added groundbreaking non-western cross cultural music being introduced to the Western world. But nope. We just got fancy blue Pocahontas instead. I guess there's a reason why people consider this movie "the most successful movie that nobody remembers." I only even remember the name Nav'i because it reminds me of Legend of Zelda...

[@chrisbruce5711]

I only remember it because its name is the same as Avatar the Last air bender and because there is one scene that reminds me of dinotopia

[@maximeteppe7627]

A movie with a huge bible of worldbuilding but a weak story is randomly put together to make money and give something easy for audiences without regards for meaning or consistency... hasn't something like that happened recently... (eyes glaze over new star wars)... Nah, Avatar's scripts was far less messy.

[@majestichorseman1321]

@@maximeteppe7627 only new star wars...? All of Star Wars suffers from this, I love the movies, all of them (well... Most) but they're all just tropes over tropes over tropes and the empty space filled by space battles. The comics and the series (Clone Wars specifically) did a MUCH better job of worldbuilding

[@maximeteppe7627]

​@@majestichorseman1321 when the original movies were made, where was no expansive bible to draw from. The prequels are weird but they do complexify things thematically and lore wise. They failure of execution lies more in the dialogue and directing than in the overall story. The sequels though, they are a mess rushed to theater to make back the 5 billions investment as quick as possible, with one ambitious but chaotic entry in the middle.

[@DELTARYZ]

@@maximeteppe7627 yeah, on-paper the prequel trilogy is just as good as (if not better than) the originals if you're judging them based on overall plot, theming, lore... they have a profound message that they do actually try to say, they just fumble the delivery. Well, more like... dropped it off a cliff, but you get the idea.

[@mistrants2745]

"... understood by all, from Oklahoma to South Dakota" I dont think ive ever heard a sentence thats more unintentionally funny than that.

[@HaydenTheEeeeeeeeevilEukaryote]

northern_lights yes, he is all Americans.

[@ProxyGaming.]

Mr Worldwide, James Cameron

[@caitlinw8351]

he did not pick the northernmost OR southernmost state.. and also they are not extremely different places, most things can probably be understood oklahoma to south dakota. What was he trying to say with that?

[@ThePCguy17]

He tried to say "from top to bottom," I think. But he forgot that America is way wider than it is tall, so he basically said, "make a narrow section of our audience appreciate it, and the rest are probably similar enough anyway I guess so I won't even mention them." And he got what he paid for.

[@serena6276]

It is sad to find out about this because all of the different or 'alien' sounds and songs where actually my favourite parts of the movie, they sounded very intimate and spiritual and made me really emotional.

[@alethearia]

NO. NO YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE TEXTILES BRO. Like, they hired actually weavers and textile experts to hand make ALL the textiles as life-sized references for the 3D modelers and texture artists. Like, they could have easily just had people wearing this stuff and carrying it around and sleeping in it IRL... but they did it JUST TO GET THE TEXTURE RIGHT. That's insane.

[@rus0004]

In reality, they just hired Sigourney Weaver and called it a day.

[@kalmancaganteuber1306]

rus0004 neat pun ftw

[@alethearia]

@@rus0004 I agree with Kalman... I have been punned! So rood. Lol

[@clemb1794]

There's a whole lot of wasted potential throughout the whole film, and the lack of consistency in the story is just disheartening. Done right it could have been a game changer with amazing music but it was squandered. I'd love to hear those unused demos too

[@frenchbreadstupidity7054]

I had the computer game and it came with a shortened digital encyclopaedia which unlocks more pages as you progress in the game. It also focussed on the idea of the songs as tools or puzzle pieces to activate the planet's self defence- a network to the spiritual world like they showed in the body-switch ritual at the end. Sadly it also had two fatal flaws: you never heard the music, just got a silent montage of them swaying; and it suffered from the White Saviour trope (wherein the human main character was the 'chosen one,' not someone who actually lives on the planet).

[@Richard_Nickerson]

It's a piece of shit. Plain and simple. And it's not even as amazing CGI as everyone said and says it is. Bad story, above average CGI but not amazing, overhyped.

[@spinlok3943]

I agree its such a shame. Plus I honestly found the score to be extremely dull as well. Just the usual generic world music mixed with "DUN DUN DUUUUNNNN" brass sounds for the bad guys.

[@slenderfoxx3797]

@@spinlok3943 yeah...basically background noise.. very simple minimal sounds that you barely even notice. Most movies use it nowadays like every generic action movie lol.

[@SteelShirt99]

R Nickerson “Above average CGI” ya ok buddy.

[@brich9188]

All that work and the title card is still just “avatar” in the papyrus font

[@catalyst3713]

Ikr. I thought the same thing

[@johnmuselmann7886]

PAPYRUS!!!

[@boiboi7717]

​@@johnmuselmann7886 Shakira merch! Offbrand teas!

[@NeilMoore]

also known as edgey hipster font

[@mninr4843]

maybe the font was brand new when they used it lmfao

[@OJ.17]

Coming back to this after the Way of Water and Jake Sully (James Cameron) has almost completely americanised the Na'Vi. Especially his kids

[@SuperSucc69]

COME ON BRO. SURE CUZ

[@uquko6292]

@@SuperSucc69 just heard we are getting another avatar movie, can’t wait to hear bro 8292923 times

[@beesmongeese2978]

@@uquko6292 Right. Such a waste of potential.

[@ashtonisvibing]

@@uquko6292 oh we're getting more than just a... second sequel. i'm pretty sure cameron wants this franchise to have maybe 4 or 5 movies to it (i wanna say 5 but i could be wrong). we've got the first and second... get ready for more bros in an alien's vocabulary for years to come!

[@naluzoniro]

Yeah ! He spent the entire first movie learning to integrate into a culture that wasn't his own, focusing on listening to each other and harmony with nature and all that, only to turn around and become AMERICAN MILITARY DAD n°1548, and impose strict patriarchy over his family

[@bobbwest]

This brings to mind an old Southern expression: "Don't buy a watchdog, then do yer own barkIn'"!

[@a.morphous66]

I have never heard that expression before but I love it.

[@mj6463]

As a Texan I have never heard that, but I’m sure as hell gonna use it

[@Robert-vk7je]

Art needs freedom. But they didn't want art. They wanted money.

[@spiceandrice4838]

Eh i actually dont think the reason they did that was aaaaalll about money but idk i feel like if all they wanted money they would put so much effort any anyway who says that they cant take inspiration from the western music too idk

[@Flamewarden_Honoushugoshin]

I highly recommend anyone who buys into the general vibe in popular culture that this movie was mediocre and the only good part was the visual cinematic theatrics to set aside the about 3 hours to watch the full cut Extended Edition (not the netflix or disney one or whatever, those are at least as cut as the theatrical release, though I think they even cut the tentacle sex scene, which I swear I remember being in the theatrical release). If you can't find it let me know I'll see if I can help or alternatively these movie censorship articles I found with a quick google search give an quick breakdown of what was additionally in the Special Edition and Extended Edition respectively (skip down to the "V. Report" and "II. Censorship Report" sections) www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=659729 and www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=869530 (it starts with a cyberpunk dystopia and a barfight, in case you were wondering, a lot is different and it really re-frames a decent amount of the film, both politically and artistically, I think)

[@ashesmandalay1762]

James Cameron is one of the only directors who commands exceptional freedom in his projects because they always make a ton of money, so normally that critique works, but specifically does not work for specifically this film.

[@KoPT01]

So James Cameron literally colonized the fictitious culture that he himself invented. Very Ironic indeed.

[@Daniel-Strain]

Except there's no reason a fictitious culture couldn't have overlapping sound elements with the West as well, so there's nothing being 'colonized'.

[@chrisc7265]

He had some ideas that didn't work out for his film. That so many people are making this comment shows how warped by political propaganda much artistic interpretation is.

[@jameson1239]

Chris C I personally think it’s funny he paid people to make musical style no one had ever heard before witch the director shot down because “it doesn’t sound like any music I know”

[@raymondthrone7197]

@@Daniel-Strain Saying "colonialized" is maybe a bit exaggerated considering the Navi, of course, do not exist and cannot have crimes perpetuated against them. That said, it's braindead stupid to spend the time and effort to create what will feel like an authentically alien alien culture, only to undercut yourself by making an ignorant pastiche of the complex culture _you yourself made_ for the sake of being more palatable to Western audiences.

[@ShirDeutch]

@@chrisc7265 The film itself is blatantly, explicitly political. It's not artistic interpretation, it's literally the text of the film.

[@da47934]

I would love to hear a follow-up now that Avatar 2 is out. And it's interested to watch this after Hans Zimmer very deliberately attempted to make an alien soundtrack with "non-Earth" instruments for Dune. The music is so much of what makes that world feel so off-worldly. It's lamentable that Avatar didn't have that effect because it didn't follow through with that intention.

[@iijel0e]

are we not gonna talk about how the subtitles in the movie are written in papyrus????

[@caleblightfoot6397]

Yami Dokusei that fact alone instantly took my respect for the world building down by a degree

[@poodychulak]

It was on the movie posters

[@narizota]

LMFAOOOO

[@mr.nazareth4501]

@@moethauk3037 it's kinda like comic sans, everybody just hates it lol

[@OttoVonGarfield]

"Papyrus...Like a small child..."

[@BuddySweyzer]

"I want music understood by all from Oklahoma to... three states away from Oklahoma."

[@EspejoSolar]

🤣🤣🤣

[@hlion_one]

Hahaha, yhea, that sentence was indeed offensive. Even for an european that still is as western as it gets. ^^ I allways thought james cameron did that movie for me aswell 😢 but nope ^^

[@rovidicus9574]

It's hilarious to me he picked, of all regions on earth, two midwest US states. Not England to China, Russia to Madagascar, etc.

[@Naokarma]

I love how he chose very central states too. Such diversity. Very cool.

[@OdaSwifteye]

@@rovidicus9574 Hell not even the coasts of the US or the North West to the South East. Two very similar Midwest states. It's almost an insult with the implications.

[@jaypocaigue3997]

I didnt even realize the N'avi had four fingers and the Avatars have five

[@evierbeach9359]

Jay Pocaigue Same, I feel blind

[@maddimagpie]

I noticed the difference, but only now do I question how that feels for one of the avatars. They have a fifth finger, so where does that energy reading go? Is it like a phantom limb or what?

[@camiart_casual]

The Na'vi also don't have eyebrows and their irises fill out the whole eye. Avatars are more human in that regard too.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

It's basically like next level VR, since humans have 5 fingers, why not give the Avatars the same. After all, what would you do when you suddenly have a finger less!

[@KaNoMikoProductions]

@@maddimagpie What?? Both the avatars and their human users have 5 fingers. Why would there be a phantom limb involved? The "energy reading" of the avatar's fifth finger goes to the human's fifth finger.

[@scottbeale3241]

Now I want to hear Hans Zimmers work with the ethnomusicologists. He's demonstrated with the DUNE soundtrack he's very capable of making something entirely alien work

[@FranticAnimations]

No he hasn't. It doesn't sound alien. It sounds like a mash of loud bass sounds with a cliched wailing woman and a duduk thrown in the mix.

[@alexbustamante6532]

@@FranticAnimations well at least it's not western

[@FranticAnimations]

@@alexbustamante6532 Also, "at least it's not western". Dune is absolutely western sounding, chucking in a few non-western instruments and throwing in drones doesn't mean it's not a modern western score that we've heard before.

[@alexbustamante6532]

@@FranticAnimations well what's your definition of something being non-western then? Non-diationical music? Microtonal? The use of pentatonic scales? Complex polyrhythms? Mongolian singing is often used in modern western movies so does that make it now part of the western cultural imaginary? No. I get that soundscapes and synthetic textures are inherently part of the modern media musical vocabulary but Zimmer's combination of synthesis with non-orchestral instruments is definitely"exotic". This isn't an original approach to scoring of course, however, his end result is completely different to anything that I've heard before. I don't know how much you know about synthesis but creating deep and compelling sound textures is such a complicated process. Saying they're just simple synthetic drones is a gross oversimplification.

[@alexbustamante6532]

@@FranticAnimations I'd like you to tell me a movie with a comparable score. I've thought about other major composers that I love but which haven't done anything quite like Dune. Gudnadottir, for instance, killed it with "Joker", but given that she's a cellist, her cello was the prominent feature above the synthetic textures. Goransson's "Tenet" is a demonstration of the insane possibilities of synthesis. I love how he keeps everything within the same aesthetic too, but he has weak lyrical themes. Max Richter is a contemporary composer that constantly combines synthesis with stringed instruments and Johansson's "Arrival" does an incredible job at combining choirs and strings with synthetic atmospheres. As much as I love all of them, notice how none went beyond the synthetic atmosphere plus traditional string orchestra combination. Zimmer went full synth/folklore. If you couldn't find this combination appealing it's fine, but I assure you then that Horner's original music would've seem horrendous to you. Zimmer used some augmented scales that are literally considered to be exotic, but Horner seemed to be heading into full microtonal territory which is further still.

[@steampunkrose1010]

The more I listen the more I think: "Just let the man be Australian!" Good lord, he's trying so hard just to sound American when was that really necessary? Is there any canon reason that he couldn't just be Australian? Was the whole continent wiped out or is Mad Max canon to this world? lol

[@naman-mishra]

Remember James Cameron’s line about wanting to make this “relatable to “everyone”, from Oklahoma to South Dakota” But still like I’m pretty sure no one would freak out about a dude talking a bit differently.

[@skrounst]

@@naman-mishra Yeah people in the mid west US have ALWAYS been accepting of other people's cultures. Especially Oklahoma where there was "the trail of t..." ... Oh wait....

[@naman-mishra]

@@skrounst yeah lol

[@willmcnally3388]

Because a Hollywood blockbuster is not about to have their central white man main character, not American, nothing to do with him being Australian, everything to do with him not being American

[@quakethedoombringer]

Cameroon was probably trying to pander to the American audiences as much as possible to maximize his profit. Remember, this is by and large still an independent movie, not Marvel movie No.3467 where the studio is guaranteed to rake in profit no matter what.

[@thisisfyne]

Why the hell did they not create some generic Hollywood score for the humans (brass and whatnot), and actually use the unusual alien-like score for the Navi? Wtf?? Too much of a statement for a blockbuster?

[@chankljp]

As much as I love this idea, I think Cameron might have worried that if he had used generic Hollywood action movie music for the humans, and unfamiliar aliens scores for the Navi, the Western audience would have been more incline to side with the 'evil corporation' humans instead, since their soundtrack along with other things made them much more familiar and recognisable.... While the Navi's soundtrack might have made them too 'alien' for the audiences's comfort, hence making them less relatable. Which was not the emotional reaction he wanted for the viewers.

[@MrJonojono34]

​@@chankljp Making a movie where the audience isnt forced to pick sides may have made a better movie in my opinion.

[@d4yno]

@@MrJonojono34 I totally agree but the sad reality is that the majority wont feel the same....

[@turnerofwheels]

Remember when one of the most popular sci fi films, 2001: a space odyssey, had a completely "alien" soundtrack of swarming violins and vocals? How unadventurous it's all become.

[@Fredreegz]

Well, come on, the generically unspecific 'ethnic' culture has to be easily digestible and consumable for western markets. They couldn't have anything to innovative, unfamiliar or challenging.

[@cosmicrdt]

As an Aussie I didn't realise Sam Worthington was trying to be American. I was proud to see an Australian actor using their normal accent. Now I'm embarrassed at how bad a job he did.

[@mockingbelles]

haha, he's from good ollll' Rockingham, nothing's getting rid of that accent lmao.

[@RetroIsaac]

Eh i forgive him. Accents are hard.

[@TimberWulfIsHere]

Sam is still a great actor either way.

[@calebunga7271]

cosmicrdt I thought he was from Brooklyn trying to be Aussie.

[@annastevens1526]

The thing that I find utterly weird about all the worldbuilding for Avatar is they paid for it, but never really seem to have pushed it as any part of the movie promo? Focusing instead on the story (which barely existed outside of cut+paste from other films) and the SFX (which were cool, but don't engage people over time). But then, I guess creating all that worldlore & then just deviating from it whenever he felt like doing lazy storytelling would make things difficult...? 😒 When you think about how hard the LOTR team leaned into the created cultural aspects of their films, and got their audience so completely engaged.... One can only hope that with the new movies finally releasing, Cameron will allow his collaborators to get more of the limelight?? 🙄 And thank you for this, it finally explains a lot of things, inc. why that Tree of Souls song sounded so weird in the midst of the rest of the soundtrack!

[@sunniva1717]

I feel like I’d probably appreciate the irony better if I actually remembered a single thing that happened in this movie.

[@beepboop1008]

Sunniva Fossen I remember thinking that the dude got stuck in a fake game/training thing. I honestly didn’t know it was about an actual alien race thing.

[@yakiradavidson1504]

Maurits this is literally all I remember wow

[@sobersplash6172]

It’s just another white savior movie, nothing special about it at all

[@liberpolo5540]

@@sobersplash6172 Painfully true.

[@AfonsodelCB]

@@sobersplash6172 If you guys think it's all it is, then you clearly didn't care or remember enough about the movie to have a worthwhile opinion. If you have a personal bias agaisnt something in the plot, that's completely fine, but if you're gonna class this as a "white savior movie", you should class it "the best white savior movie". calling it a "white savior movie" is diminishing in many ways in my opinion, his race was completely meaningless, he could have been a black asian for all that matters. The reason he was important in the retaliation of the alien race was because he had knowledge from the human world, which both helped him be more innovative than the aliens at their own culture, and gave him insider knowledge into the inner working of the machines and war strategy. If you're gonna complain about the plot, complain about the nonsensical corporate/military decisions the humans had in the movie.

[@Anna-ps1us]

I want a "NO-Director's cut" from all the preproduction efforts, Music, and language creation.

[@OfficialROZWBRAZEL]

If you said that to Cameron's face it would the severest burn he's ever recieved

[@doctordothraki4378]

Cue a social media campaign like the Justice League Snyder Cut one

[@Tchika]

@@OfficialROZWBRAZEL I wonder if it would burn more or less than the fact that his ex-wife won the oscar for best movie that year 😎

[@logosandopenings]

​@@Tchika less considering avatar made considerably more money in the box office lol

[@FranticAnimations]

That would be the dream.

[@rinarina6247]

Cameron has truly done the impossible, he's appropriated a culture that he himself made up. That's worthy of whatever the opposite of a Nobel Peace Prize is.

[@tejakausik6205]

dude im like offended for a culture that doesnt even exist lmao. this is so stupid and a complete waste of time for the professionals that he hired because all they did was what he asked and he was like "oh there's not enough white" and i really wonder what this movie could have been.

[@windows1895]

The Nobel Prick Prize

[@PrototypeSpaceMonkey]

@@windows1895 He wins the Trinitrotoluene award. It's another idea of Alfred Nobel. It looks like a big red candle. Be sure to light it in order to experience it in all it's glory.

[@barmacidic2257]

PrototypeSpaceMonkey that took me a second, but I died laughing when I got it.

[@sweatyskeleton7390]

I'd call it the Manybells Asshole Award

[@boltcry]

After my first two weeks taking a course on film sound in college, I find topics like these fascinating. And the idea of creating a whole new type if music for a new culture sounds just too cool to have been ruined like this. Imagine how all the talented people who worked on scoring and world building felt

[@kendallmasterssank369]

Horner should release his original soundtrack by himself on Spotify

[@jordank7330]

K Masters San K I’m sorry to tell you that James Horner passed away in 2015

[@kendallmasterssank369]

@@jordank7330 RIP

[@salenebrom6476]

K Masters San K 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@captainquark2272]

He passed away around the time John Nash passed away. John Nash was tge subject of a beautiful mind. One of my favourites of Horner's scores

[@gregmit211]

@@jordank7330 damn

[@sgste]

"They could literally be singing about what they had for lunch and it wouldn't make a difference" well... actually, considering they wanted songs based on their every day life (weaving song, hunting song) a song about lunch would actually be more of what they wanted, instead of, you know, a song called 'circle-branch-six'

[@branthebrave]

It was just a random example. If he said they could have been saying random sounds it's the same thing, so it's independent of following the daily life idea

[@inconsistizzy]

☝️🤓

[@imtryingmybest673]

“ All those scenes where Jake learns how to *W e A v E* “

[@raquelanderson5940]

I laugh so hard to this had to run it back😂

[@DelRae]

He learned to braid his hair

[@cinnastag]

He weaves with the animals like a headcrab which would have been even more interesting than just learning how to...hunt like humans do

[@Monody512]

Oh he sure wove with Ney'tiri…

[@imtryingmybest673]

Monody OH MY GOD😂

[@nuclearhardt]

All jokes aside, I think what may have happened was this: James Cameron begins production and is in love. He spares no expense, calling in every kind of expert he can think of to create a thorough and complete setting with a fully developed culture. He gets lost in the sauce. Alien ecosystems, conlang, numerical system, astronomically accurate representations of the night sky. The coup de grace: an entirely alien soundtrack. The crown jewel of this completely new world. Then reality smashes back in. The honeymoon phase is over. He has to make an actual movie now, and he absolutely cannot afford it to bomb. The budget that this project accrued is unthinkable. He starts cutting chunks of content, relegating them to behind the scenes material. The story can't be too weird, this has to be as universally appealing as it can be. Creature design is also reigned in - we need these aliens to have an analogue to what most audiences will recognize. Soundtrack? If it sounds weird to Cameron, it'll sound weird to the audience. They'll be taken out of the moment! No, this needs to be sanded down and made familiar. A movie gets released. It nets unprecedented returns at the box office. Within five years, it has vanished from public discussion. What a success! What a loss...

[@charmandyorton006]

Avatar: Where the worldbuilding is actually way better than the story

[@danbh84]

yeah and? lol avatar didn't do well coz of the story..

[@yomanwtfisthisshit]

What is wrong with the story though? I mean it is no complicated characterpiece but it never tried to be. It is actual popcorn entertainment and i'd argue it has a better story than most movies today that try to fill the same niche, like the whole MCU movies for example.

[@danbh84]

Goukes the story is v good but i mean it did well more so coz of pandora etc

[@jambononi]

@@yomanwtfisthisshit But why make it? They had an opportunity, and apparently a desire, to make something unique and deep, but just made popcorn "Ah, nice to not think whilst sitting in a dark room with flashing blue lights" entertainment. What's the point? If that's the bar they were trying to hit, just make anything, it doesn't matter. Why advance 3d animations and build a lore as deep as Tolkien's when the story is just a total cliche. Sure, those stories are originally interesting but not anymore. It doesn't have any emotional impact because (unless you're a child) you already know exactly what's going to happen. At least put a spin on it. Give them some curve ball or complexity. Don't make an effort to not make an effort. I just didn't get the point of the hype for this film because I was bored in the cinema.

[@jambononi]

@@yomanwtfisthisshit MCU at least has new story lines though. They do have surprises and unique takes that are executed well. This is just 'ethnic minority' harassed by 'American corp'. It's like a first person shooter campaign story line without the game play to break up the uninvited story bits. Many of the Avengers films actually genuinely raise the question of what is right or wrong, and don't give a clear answer. Avatar is good vs evil. Avengers has Thanos who actually gives a fairly reasonable argument for genocide and puts him as the protagonist, that's not cheap popcorn entertainment.

[@KikiYushima]

As a linguistics major, the idea of having to learn ejectives made my heart stop. Those are _so_ difficult to do if you weren't raised natively with them.

[@annafantasia]

I didn't know that word so I looked 'em up and -- HECK those are strange and difficult -- to my ear of course, perfectly normal to others! Thanks for the new knowledge, linguistics is badass

[@braydencoversbeatles4029]

They’re not that hard. Epiglottals are much more difficult.

[@jensl5956]

@@braydencoversbeatles4029 you're 100% right

[@uwuingallnight7381]

My language has those so I never appreciated the struggle until a friend tried to learn my language and that way also ejectives. He’s come a long way but there’s still room to improve

[@lurji]

do not go into kartvelian studies! you will die!

[@beek1965]

director: show me music i have never heard before them: *does it for millions of dollars* director: nah I dont like it

[@JustMe-ne6km]

*director: i dont like it cus sounds nothing like music i know

[@raymondthrone7197]

As it turns out money can buy you anything you ask for, but it can't buy you a sense of taste.

[@solame10101]

Cameron is a very clever director and if he thought the music didnt work for the movie, then it probably was so. It would be interesting to hear the tunes though.

[@AM-ow3gn]

@@solame10101 part of being a good director is knowing what impact you want to have on your audience, and making creative choices to get that impact. The choices he made to consistently devolve the music indicate that the impact he really wanted was to gratify his Western audience members, make them feel just slightly exposed to the "exotic", while still using his comfort zone approaches to manipulate their emotions in a predictable way. In that sense, he is a good director - for moneymaking.

[@free_spirit1]

@solame10101 whoa slow down there cowboy, that almost made too much sense. The name of the game here is to mindlessly hate james cameron, get on board of the hatetrain.

[@ceoofbadinstrumentplaying5496]

I think the original concept of blending all the music is super cool. Also the fact they managed to do it is impressive, so James Cameron cutting that out makes me so maaaad

[@PeaceRallyOrg]

So, basically, the Avatar soundtrack is like American Chinese food.

[@pills-]

No. Avatars soundtrack is like inventing a whole new kind of food, but then throwing out all the unique ingredients so that it tastes like American Chinese food... :D

[@andresacosta4832]

@@pills- lel

[@MASTEROFEVIL]

200th like

[@zentrox5732]

Pills _ Exactly

[@spocklesocks]

except american chinese food can actually taste good

[@MyYoutubeChannelBabyyyy]

So they made a real language, which can’t be easy. And then just said random words so that it sounds good, why tf....

[@V2Blast]

Because James Cameron.

[@StainlessHelena]

It's basically Ameno but in space.

[@mistermegalo]

@@StainlessHelena *Dorime*

[@Zeutomehr]

@Alexander Supertramp you use it when you say "uh-oh"

[@nemomcspunk340]

I think it’s pretty rad

[@FantasyAddict95]

I find the comment about the western "ethnic" music being what they *think* ethnic music funny in a sad way, because that statement isn't just for music, it's such a wide range of art from music to architecture to clothing. Hell, I had written an essay back in my college English class that touched on "chinoiserie" (trying to remember how it's spelled off the top of my head.) It was about Chinese porcelain, and how the preferred style for the Chinese at the time was to have things be a simple, pure, delicate white with maybe some blue, but potters created and sold over-decorated, gaudy stuff that was totally unrecognizable and "alien" to them to European traders since that fit the European perception as what actual Chinese-style pottery looked like.

[@jayeisenhardt1337]

I mean even the Chinese hated their style and purged many things to follow Western thought. Couldn't admit they made a mistake to save face so they still got it in them, but with Chinese characteristics as they try to build themselves back up culturally. It's looking like the West is about to run into the same thing. As it was then as it is now, the ones supporting a future they say they do not want are the ones claiming to be fighting against it while only fighting themselves.

[@TJ-kh2zc]

@@jayeisenhardt1337 Huh

[@mjpeng6516]

@@jayeisenhardt1337 It was to "move forward", not follow western thought.

[@benedictdwyer2608]

@@mjpeng6516 yes, that

[@beatm6948]

@@jayeisenhardt1337 if your talking about the CA, it was to purge western ideology

[@SayderCascading]

Can we make a petition to have the original song samples released because I *NEED* to hear them

[@Chanta2424]

if not for this video, I wouldn't have even known they were TRYING to make the movie sound non-western. It sounds like every marvel movie soundtrack

[@mleppp1546]

This explains it perfectly. The first time I watched this movie I had just moving into a high school band. I play French Horn, and a more-naïve me would get all excited when I heard a horn solo because I had apparently never watched a blockbuster before. It took me such a long time to realize "Hey, there's a little more than just contextual details in the sound design! Woah!"

[@kayzee3595]

It doesn’t, silly 😂

[@gorgolyt]

It sounds nothing like a Marvel soundtrack. You're musically stunted.

[@jellybeansi]

Ever watched the video essay called "The Marvel Symphonic Universe: Why all Marvel music sounds the same"? Go check it out. MCU music is incredibly forgettable with few memorable motifs. There hasn't been a good motif since the first Iron Man. That is on top of the horribly muddy, washed out colours in MCU movies under Disney.

[@popoff7808]

I think you mean it the other way round since this was first.

[@ratosphere]

“I want the music to be really out there and different.” ... “No, this is way too out there and different.”

[@kaamn1829]

So let me get this straight, James Cameron managed to culturally appropriated a culture that they made FOR the film?!?!

[@Coldwater-sw6me]

The entire planet…!

[@Brainsore.]

Um… I don’t think you even know what that means, lol

[@kaamn1829]

@@Brainsore. what part of that doesn't make sense to you? I'd be happy to explain it? Is it the term cultural appropriation, bc I understand it's kind of muddied with how people use it nowadays.

[@Dan_Kanerva]

@@kaamn1829 you are actually using the term "cultural appropiation" right... surprising to see in current internet

[@VEE0034]

@@kaamn1829 yes dumb it Down please.

[@its_clean]

Honestly it feels like the conclusion here is pretty simple. Cameron's movies, even the good ones, are slavishly obedient to the rules of either cool or pretty. Cool and pretty, of course, as defined by Western commercial appeal. He may be an auteur in the sense of his dictatorial control, but not in the sense of creativity or artistry. He's just a stone's throw away from Michael Bay- whereas Bay is the lowbrow, explosionfest, McDonald's-level filmmaker; Cameron is a middlebrow, technonerd, Olive Garden interpretation of the exact same thing. Just look at Alien vs Aliens- while I absolutely love both, it's plain that Cameron transformed Ridley Scott's moody, philosophical, artsy vision into a mechanically precise, shut-your-brain-off techno-thriller that trades every moment of introspection for an opportunity to just ooze pre-programmed cool. The bottom line here is- any music that is authentically ethnic or alien-sounding would not be "pretty" to Western ears, so they fall back on the Hans Zimmer/Lisa Gerrard trope of just layering some generically cool and vaguely exotic-adjacent melodies and a few meaningless female vocal warbles on top of an otherwise Euro-familiar traditional Hollywood orchestral score. This shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone though, and I wonder if the millions of dollars and hundreds of hours were really spent on all that cultural research. Anyone who's seen a James Cameron film could have predicted that it never would have worked.

[@lightyagami1058]

You know it's kind of ironic because Titanic had that scene in the bottom of the ship demonstrating the involvement of partying and dancing to represent the lower class culture, and then there was the string quartet that played during the film aligning with the history. And given the topics that Way of the Water touches on you'd expect Cameron to have learned something about a film score by now but here we are.

[@Barakon]

@@lightyagami1058 But, the Titanic was of western cultures which Cameron thought the audience would love & understand.

[@Punz18]

I really liked this score. But now all I want to hear is the original sounds and songs for the movie. It could’ve been a great way to push the boundaries of blockbuster film scores

[@Monti1999]

yeah. Instead we got those frickin drum sh*t over and over and over again. 😭 Mostly for trailers though.

[@5StringTheory]

Yes, me too!

[@frenchbreadstupidity7054]

I would love if we got everyone who worked on the music, to release an album of everything that was scrapped. Sadly, I think everything an artist creates under direction of a filmmaker, is copyrighted to that filmmaker. Like how all the concept art for Disney animation has a 'Property of Disney' watermark instead of the artist's signature.

[@Geronimo_Jehoshaphat]

It probably just didn't work.

[@969ixn8]

Might I make a recommendation? There is a soundtrack from another movie that (to me) sounds more na'vi than the actual movie. it's the soundtrack from "Time Machine" made in 2002. I listen to it all the time. Check it out.

[@xxOnigiri99]

"Here, make me some alien music but it must sound american, and not alien" Edit: Thanks for the likes guys, I didn't expect this to have so many

[@eddie-roo]

"It has to sound like something from between Oklahoma and South Dakota"

[@crosstrigger1]

It's almost like the most important thing about music is that it sounds good. What if the demos just sounded... bad?

[@xxOnigiri99]

@@crosstrigger1 bad and good are subjective tho, most people take some time to get used to new sounds and all, it's the same with food, places, drinks... I imagine it is a possibility that the demos weren't all perfect and good, but there is a difference between fixing them to be better, and axing them because they don't sound american enough

[@somedude8346]

@@xxOnigiri99 a better argument would be music is auditory communication and that the demos just made some scenes felt out of place since the world and culture didnt fully develop

[@xxOnigiri99]

@@somedude8346 I agree, it's just a shame that the one spearheading the project (the director) cut down the music because he didn't fully understand it

[@Cinemaniac96]

"hey, we have all this money, let's put in an effort to create an original sounding score. Wait, no, not like that." #releasethedemos

[@kittykat490]

I'd be so so interested to hear the music they made originally that was shot down ;__;

[@Spermwhales93]

@@kittykat490 I don't think we ever will because James Horner died in a plane crash 5 years ago... :-/

[@vertigelt]

@@Spermwhales93 The recordings themselves still exist. There's enough recorded and mixed music out there to fill 5 CDs if there were an expanded release of the westernized music. Probably many hours more of the untamed versions. Simon Franglen, who was a longtime collaborator with Horner (he completed his unfinished score to Magnificent Seven and also wrote the music for the Pandora amusement park attraction), is scoring the Avatar sequels. I'm almost certain Franglen worked with Horner on some of the untamed music and has access to those tapes. Of course, it doesn't mean that it's remotely likely that Cameron will let Franglen use those ideas after having abandoned them in the first film. But... whatever was recorded still exists and his widow is actively involved in preserving his musical legacy.

[@evil1st]

After watching all of the Star Wars movies in a 2 day marathon, (in the correct order), I gotta say the Avatar soundtrack reminds me a lot of the orchestral brass that Lucas is known for in his movies. The scene in the forest with Neytiri and the rhino creatures literally sounds like it is straight out of an older Star Wars movie. Cameron and Lucas are always trying to one up each other though so maybe the brass is like a "I can do it too" to Lucas from Cameron.

[@Wheja_sciart]

This... really is depressing. Horner put a lot of effort into a soundtrack we will never hear and now (RIP, James) never will hear anything like. I hope Cameron lives up to his promise that the sequels will be even bolder on ALL fronts and give us actual alien music.

[@darKILLusionnn]

As much as I'd wish for the same, I highly doubt they would use actual alien music. Sequel soundtracks are usually pretty much copy and pasted from the previous film. I can't imagine them willing to go out of their way to create a very different sounding sequel.

[@Kairi1416]

@@darKILLusionnn There's also the fact that now Disney owns it. Disney is not much for risk taking, creating such bland material lately. They would never allow it.

[@chrisc7265]

@@darKILLusionnn the music will be re-thought just because there will be a new composer

[@WillowSkyes]

this movie is the most Hollywood thing I've ever heard of.

[@BaguetteGamingOfficial]

It's a really good movie though , in my opinion

[@diablo.the.cheater]

@@BaguetteGamingOfficial but is not phenomenal, and it could had been, that is the problem

[@BaguetteGamingOfficial]

@@diablo.the.cheater I dunno I find it phenomenal

[@diablo.the.cheater]

@@BaguetteGamingOfficial well, there is people who like fast food as well.

[@BaguetteGamingOfficial]

@@diablo.the.cheater don't judge me please

[@DATFilms]

James Horner was like "This whole operation was your idea" It is really depressing that he will never get the chance (to have a possibility) to fix the score for the sequels. James Horner was truly amazing. R.I.P.

[@BramKaandorp]

That is tragic. And to think that some other composer has to work with the existing material, and probably can't deviate too much from it, for the same reason that the original score wasn't allowed to be too non-western.

[@tardiskeeper6]

I didn't know he died, looked it up now. Tragic 😞

[@sarahwithstars]

Nothing short of tragic

[@bridgetblanc2159]

What?!?! James Horner died? Oh no...

[@crazykay9422]

Hearing all this really makes me sad. This is actually one of my favorite non animated movies, cuz I prefer animation over live action. I haven't watched it in a while but it firmly holds a place in my heart. But most of the music didn't really stick out to me, and I so so SO wished they'd have put in what wanted to be done with the music.

[@Batflapers]

To summarise: James Cameron shouldn’t micro manage every aspect of the film and should just respect the professionals he hired

[@louiscypher4186]

eh not necessarily, at the end of the day it had to make money. If we were talking about an album sure it should have been left wholly to those who created it. But music in film is meant to compliment what your seeing on screen and invoke a greater emotional response to the tone and setting, It's there to play a supporting role. For that to work it does need to recognizable enough to the audience so that they actually feel a greater connection to the scene rather then be pulled out of it by music they cannot recognize or have any emotional attachment too. Yes it's easy to lament something that could have been. But at the end of the day, Cameron's job was to make the project as a whole a success, Which he did. Would hearing the original music be cool? heck yes. But would it have made a better movie? probably not. Dr. Bryant's quote about being open to new sounds and learning to appreciate them over time is great. But people watching movies at the theatre don't have that option, for 99% of people it's a 1 and done thing and the music has to work there in that moment.

[@lowreslireas]

@@louiscypher4186 That's a great argument that wasn't stated on the video. Nice. I wonder though how less successful the movie would have been had the originally planned alien music been used

[@louiscypher4186]

@@lowreslireas Sadly we'll never know, Part of me always thinks audiences are more open to truly new and unique things which are made with passion then the industry gives credit.

[@McSquiddington]

I'd offer another summary and state that Cameron's rapidly turned into Hollywood's own Peter Molyneux. Big concepts, huge ambitions, along with a tendency towards micromanaging and dwelling on the smallest details - as opposed to actually making progress during production. Avatar works as a movie, sure, but it's far from the bombshell Cameron mentioned he'd drop during preview interviews. The box office numbers refute that, yes, but plenty of massively generic projects end up being successful. Look at Fable, which is a by-the-numbers RPG with a meter-based minmax and morality system.

[@elliwesishawkins4799]

Louis Cypher you make a really good point! I also think that using the micro-tonality could be a tool in making the audience uncomfortable at first in dangerous situations on Pandora.Then a well made combination of microtonal sounds, put into a theme for the na’vi, would be played just often enough to “get use to it” where the audience may have time to at least appreciate that theme while they are also learning to appreciate the na’vi and that could’ve been a good musical story telling technique. The fear of no one enjoying it because of the music should’ve driven them to find the right, enjoyable blend and not prevented them from using it in the first place.

[@bekahbaylake8836]

“This is not what non-Western music sounds like. This is what Western audiences THINK non-Western music sounds like” GO OFF

[@2ndpartycrasher954]

Its what western people think alien music sounds like so what, no one is right here, cuz wait a min...ALIENS HAVEN’T visit us yet

[@SkyPixelin]

@@2ndpartycrasher954 There are cultures outside of the western world that are made by humans too.

[@The-Trexian]

I was looking at the comments an the said it right when I was on your commment

[@casthedemon]

@@SkyPixelin that wasn't his argument.

[@FM-er6xy]

As a southamerican i thought they based the culture on the Tupi-guarani tribes (but mostly Tupi since they used to be located more on the amazonas zone)so yeah they still fucked up their attempt at making it completly disconected,

[@el6700]

I don’t recall a single musical cue from this entire movie. Lord of the rings however...

[@drunkpunch7334]

"RIDE NOW, RIDE NOW, RIDE, RIDE FOR RUIN AND THE WORLDS ENDING! DEATH!!!!" You can hear that swell in music right now

[@misanthropicservitorofmars2116]

Paddy Neilan I get chills just thinking about it.

[@WicariWoW]

I can say the exact opposite, whats your point ?

[@andybreadley429]

I watched both and don't recall both.

[@johnrambo5795]

@@WicariWoW whats your point?

[@ILLA1G]

We miss your work man. I hope all is well.

[@TheG_Boy]

I don't even care about this movie and this still hurts

[@g.k.2795]

I'm one of the 3 people that haven't seen this movie and this hurts.

[@Chrisratata]

I watched the movie multiple times and watched this video, and I don’t see the issue. Yes, James Cameron was ambitious in his desires and expectations ahead of time but ended up not being able to achieve it the way he wanted hence made some compromises. He creatively bit off more than he could chew - he’s not a composer with an understanding of music theory so his ideas made more sense in his head than they did in actuality...or the music team he hired just couldn’t hack it so he made do. It happens in Hollywood ALL the fucking time. What’d you want him to do, stick to his original request regardless even if what was brought to him again and again didn’t sound good?? It’s akin to the fact that, in the music industry, there’s oftentimes artists that come along and try to mash up different genres in a way that no one’s done before. Many fail, but every now and then someone comes along that revolutionizes the effort. Point being that ambition sometimes pays off and sometimes it doesn’t. There is a such thing as making experimental musical efforts digestible to mainstream ears but it takes an incredible amount of finesse that not everyone can pull off HENCE once one is in the midst of a larger project and comes to grips with the fact that the way they originally intended isn’t quite working out then OF COURSE they’re going to make compromises. In the world of music, some artist reach this point and decide not to release the song/album at all - for a film like Avatar, not releasing it was not an option.

[@Jim_WoodPike_Gherkin_WangWick]

I know, right?

[@gioffritizio1842]

I'm am the third person who haven't seen avatar

[@Chrisratata]

@Imaru Lewis score music does need to be digestible in the sense that it needs to fit the film. If it's too off in its implementation then it can quite literally be a distraction. ANY prominent film score composer will tell you this. Not every movie can have a score like the Denis Villenueve film ENEMY - that film's whole goal was to keep the viewer uneasy with its tension so it made sense that the music would be equally weird. But at the end of the day, Avatar was a mainstream film; people would've appreciated weird music to a degree but there is a line. Yes, no one made James Cameron change his mind against the very thing he asked for, which should tell you that what he heard in reality didn't quite match what he had hoped for in his head. Things like "elliptical time signatures" isn't exactly something that even the best of musicians can pull off, so it makes sense if he would scrap those original plans "entirely" on account of being too concerned that it wasn't going anywhere productive in the remaining time they had available. Even if you argue that Cameron was too paranoid for his own good - that even the demos at their "worst" would've done the movie some good - it's easier to say that in hindsight...versus being at the helm of hundreds of millions of dollars and having to make decisions that will please mainstream audiences worldwide. People won't diss a film for a bad score but they will diss a film for how it makes them feel, and a film's score is a huge part of those feelings whether the viewer can put their finger on it or not. Us film score enthusiast would love to hear those demos, and will likely love them academically, but the decision to use them at the time they were created isn't about us.

[@andersonwang1746]

Seeing this video, I’ve got two thoughts: Sideways is not being snarky, he is genuinely pissed at the colossal amount of wasted potential in such an ironic sense. Secondly, I hope these demos can see the light of day. They from the sound of it seem amazing.

[@ubayyd]

Ikr!? It'd be spectacular ✨

[@zr_1234]

It's a bit of both. He seriously thinks James Cameron did Avatar for $$$. It's clear Cameron has passion for filmmaking but go off on money making potential.

[@gravoxxavox7849]

There’s a song by TheFatRat and Maisy Kay called ‘The Calling’. It uses some of the lyrics from the weaving song, and I feel like it perfectly shows how they could combine the speech with western musical concepts

[@aaclovern9804]

I haven't watched the movie yet but i hope they brought back some of the horner's work that "seemed too alien". It would be a shame if it got lost completely

[@shadow_shine3578]

​@@gravoxxavox7849I thought that song felt like avatar

[@alina18600]

when you started talking about the music I was like: damn that's cool I really need to watch the movie again and pay attention to the music..... well that went downhill so fast such a shame :/

[@sorrychangedmyusername3594]

I was really hyped too, the lore, the effort, lol people don understand = no money :/

[@johnlime1469]

It still pretty awesome. Especially the last few minutes of "Gathering of All the Navi clans for Battle". I don't care what anyone says. That melody is just.....god damn I'm gonna go listen to it again.

[@LeRoyt97]

Thought about this video after watching the new Dune movie. I feel like Hanz Zimmer accomplished, for the most part, exactly what they were trying to do with Avatar, and it was phenomenal! Ironic how we got a very "alien" sounding soundtrack from a movie that didn't actually have any aliens lol.

[@SilverstreamPJ28]

Dune doesn't have aliens? Lol

[@user-lp7tx1fe6t]

Well not intelligent ones anyway

[@adams13245]

@@SilverstreamPJ28 From what I've heard all the sapients in Dune's universe are genetically engineered humans. They don't even have robots in the present time, since they already had a robot uprising, hence the use of mentats.

[@gamehero6816]

No aliens? *looks at the sandworms* Yeah, right.

[@marcusaaronliaogo9158]

@@adams13245tbf, In franks original work its implied the robots did not rebel and more like people just fell into decadence.

[@TimJSwan]

So basically James made a film about himself without realizing it.

[@nathanielbanghart1900]

Absolutely. It's genuinely hilarious

[@nabil731]

He's so dumb...

[@investigatormilo]

*but blue*

[@RealBrickAnimations]

I love how they managed to spend this crazy amount of money on all these musical and world building details, but when it came to a typeface that could have been developed for the film they just went.. *opening word document* "huh.. I guess Papyrus it is!"

[@marmiteghost]

DUDE EXACTLY WTF

[@teawrecks1243]

Isn't a papyrus a mammal that lays eggs?

[@boianko]

@@teawrecks1243 No...that's a platypus...

[@SlapstickGenius23]

tea wrecks a papyrus is a plant!

[@phoebexxlouise]

HAHA SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT

[@MissMurder1243]

Hearing about the mess that was Avatar's production breaks my heart. I know a lot of people don't like the film and the plot is less than original but there was so much potential. I think the saddest thing about it all is that the most interesting parts of Avatar are everything that was left out of the film; unique soundtrack and world-building. I'm still hopeful the sequels will do something interesting but knowing how difficult James Cameron is to work with I don't know...

[@canadianbutt275]

why dont people like avatar?

[@Albirie]

@@canadianbutt275 Because it's an unoriginal white savior story

[@Gaming_Legend2]

When i watched it when i was 10 i had this odd feeling that the movie barely scratched it's world, like to be specific one of the animals that is also like a horse, only appears ones in the movie but its used as a vehicle in the wii game, it doesn't do world building right or enough in some way, it doesn't really have that time fall bear packages from death stranding, you know?, little details that sell it as a world more than a vr demo experience that looks amazing, the movie just rushes over the world when our MC is literally an outsider, a new comer to this world that knows nothing or next to non about it, the classic rpg mc, that is built so the user learns about the world alongside him, but the movie knida rushes over this process leaving you with the feeling of wanting to see more and get the protagonist to ask more about the world ffs.

[@MyBinaryLife]

Canadianbutt 275 theyre dumb

[@nicholasleclerc1583]

Was the plot more unique in its time ?

[@benkelly4807]

You need to do this for the second one too now! Loved this video by the way!