Why Bad Descenders Need to be in First Position

[@grimsonfart]

Impressive speed y'all doing ;)

[@sharifb507]

hahaha 132km/h UPHILL loool

[@jen3800]

i really appreciate this new ( to me ) source of strategic advice! this is really useful information. bravo!

[@TrainerRoad]

We're so glad you're liking it! Thanks for watching :)

[@mokasusa]

Finally you guys do something else then flat crits😜

[@TrainerRoad]

We try to mix it up ;)

[@janwarrington]

So cool it makes me want to race my bike ! Learning so much from the commentary and the on board cameras are the nuts

[@TrainerRoad]

Get out there and try it! Once you start it's hard to stop :)

[@avoycendeether8869]

Whoa! Good save, Jeff!

[@HolmsOnBikes]

I NEED MORE of these videos!!!! I'm addicted. Please keep 'em comin!!!!

[@TrainerRoad]

cycling T-Holms there are three more recorded already!

[@archetypex65]

I'll start out my comments with saying that I don't think your descending is necessarily bad it just needs a little bit of work to improve, to become more efficient. 👌 I think there's some confusion between descending and cornering. Descending typically through a set of corners only differs because of the gradient. If there are 90 degree corners similar to other parts of the course that are flat then the technique for cornering is going to be the same. I think a big thing is keeping your vision as far up the road as possible to give yourself the 'feeling' of not going as fast as you perceive. When your brain can slow things down even at significant speeds you can execute and Implement better and more efficiently. Utilizing body steering and counter steering is also key. Sometimes by just relying on body steering the bike lags on initial turn in point on corner entry. one other thing descending a 30 miles an hour is really not that fast and you should not be on the brakes at all unless there is an obstacle that presents itself in front of you or if there is some other potential problem. But good cornering technique all starts with vision. 👍 check out our blog at Leanin Cornering for more information on cornering techniques and analysis.

[@TrainerRoad]

Thanks so much for the tips!

[@archetypex65]

@@TrainerRoad 🙇‍♂️👌

[@jackkellam3987]

"the pavement's really bad" You should see what we have to race on in the UK lol...

[@ellismccoy]

Ha yeah, in Northumberland bad roads mean; pot holes that can swallow small cars. Everything else is either normal or good.

[@DRMatt-zd4rh]

*Laugh in Montreal*

[@kylemoroney6917]

Try South Africa 😂😂

[@clairesucks]

Jack Kellam we have our share. :) our tarmac is made of rocks and asphalt. No concrete in California and with all our rain, it’s crap.

[@joshmagrum3552]

great video guys! Keep 'em coming

[@TrainerRoad]

Thanks, Josh!!

[@lobuk516]

Nate. Giving us tall guys (6'8") hope!!

[@deanabt]

Nicely done! I'm 6'5" and know Auburn well. One thing I do that may help you is to get your upper body super low - arms bent and relaxed, face waaay down toward bars (but not enough to throw weight too far forward), maintain that hard push on the outside/down pedal. A little moto GP inside knee out (not too much, need to stay aero) can also help. No brakes after maybe(!) light touch before entering turn. The winning move from any size group in that race is hard attack across the bridge and lose them downhill :-)

[@TrainerRoad]

Great points!!! Thanks for dropping some intel! ;)

[@albr4]

I read somewhere that you're not supposed to stick your knee out because bicycle tyres don't work like motorbike tyres and you should keep them in to keep the weight over the top of the tyres? not sure if thats true.

[@Mark_Tucker]

Nice video and commentary! One thought on road surface... I felt like the pavement sucked but in the less critical points of the turn -entry and exit. In the apex of the turns it wasn’t too bad. 🏁Santa Cruz Sunday🏁..... racing 1/2/3’s 🤗

[@TrainerRoad]

Mark Tucker great job on this Mark! Did you realize that gapped us by so much each descent?

[@Mark_Tucker]

TrainerRoad yes but I didn’t know if everyone was holding back each time and thought maybe I was missing something because it seemed too good to be true. I wish you or someone was able to hang with me in the turns and it could have been a two man break early in the race but I didn’t have the legs to stay away solo so I’d recover on the front climb while you guys brought me back.

[@TrainerRoad]

Mark Tucker you played it perfectly. As long as you were the first one into that last descent you’d most likely win. Plus you were saving a lot of energy so it was very unlikely you’d get dropped and you’d be fresher for the sprint. Nice job! Like I said before, if 45+ nationals is on a technical course next year you should go!

[@Nordviking8]

Love the racing video with commentary

[@TrainerRoad]

Thanks so much! We're glad you like this format :)

[@LuckyLuke980]

Well I did go above 100 kph with my bike but not uphill :P

[@jlems56]

I really like these videos.

[@TrainerRoad]

That's so good to hear! Thanks for watching :)

[@JanneRasanen2]

Hi I love your videos especially with the analysis commentary like this one. First time commenter who recently found your channel is still catching up on all that you have done so far. Like my handle shows I am a multisport guy and a fellow sports video KZbinr although my work gets published on the channel lcgm8 (no plug just saying). In this sport I have limited race experience and being a contrasting rider physically at 170 cm @ 66 kg (losing weight luckily) I found our differences descending so great that I need to ask. Do you know the weights, tyre width and model choices of everyone in the breakaway? The reason I ask is the sketchy road in the corners on the descent where you got dropped. Because I am a lighter rider with lower center of gravity with little self preservation instinct, knowledge of my equipment and how hard I can attack a corner and knowing how hugging the apex of the inside corner makes all the difference also in car and motorcycle sports I wonder about the reason for not utilizing the whole width of the road while cornering. I know about odd and off cambers and saw the grates on the outside edge of some corners that one could pass more on the left risking the arm touching something on the left -small guy talking who has more margin of error obviously. Is it a trust issue toward your equipment grip and bouncing in the turns, trust issue for equipment and the obvious risk factor if you leave less than an inch in the apex and on the exit or tyre pressure difference for a bigger vs smaller rider or fear/responsibility issue of not taking bigger risks in taking tightest possible lines or something else? Like differences in tyre grip and ability to absorb bumps at our chosen pressures? For me GP4000S2 25-28 and lesser tyres@32 mm on another bike at 3.5-4 Bars typically. A compromise in rolling resistance due to bad roads and a pinched nerve in the arm needing help to alleviate shocks. Have you compared motorcyclist knee height to the ground to yourself in corners? I realize the need to stay healthy and alive and having people depend on you forcing you to stay safe. They say that once a Formula 1 driver gets their first child they get slower. It is only natural to take smaller and fewer risks when your responsibilities to others grow. If you were not a father, husband, CEO and whatnot would you be more aggressive in hugging the corners? The answer varies greatly depending on goals, personality etc. You have so much more potential descending thanks to your size once you get drafting from others that it will be insane how much more competitive you will become on such courses when you gain even half of the potential you have left to improve upon descending. Good luck training skills and confidence and possibly finding a grippier more compliant and puncture resistant tyre that you can depend on! A wider tyre perhaps? I do not know for sure what you were riding there. Thank you and the guys for an insanely good channel and the work you do -you are gems!

[@TrainerRoad]

Discgolfvideos it’s fear holding me back. I was on 28s pro ones at 70 psi. I had grip left for days! -Nate

[@JanneRasanen2]

@@TrainerRoad I have not ridden a Pro One but I have touched it in a store and the main part for grip the tackiness of the compound is not as confidence inspiring as the second newest generation Black Chili. On a GP4000s2 that is. The source of fear needs to be identified to overcome it. If it is only from not knowing the limits of your equipment and your skills and error correction reflex speed it should be easier to overcome than other causes. Riding ever so slightly faster increasing pace only when you are confident you can handle the added difficulty should help over time. Repeating the same corner several times in a row. Concept of hugging the apex should help alleviate fear of being aggressive when going into the corner. Because the closer to the apex you are the more space you have on the exit. Which is more important for margin of error. What is likely hard to overcome is the fear of making life harder for others if you get injured. Responsible people need to be sure that the bike is perfect and you stay within your skills. Reaction speed and correctness tend to improve when one trains getting close or to the limit. The more you succeed in maintaining control after the bike shows signs of pushing the limit the better you know to not push any harder. While being quick enough. Baby steps win over crashing due to feeling vs knowing you can maintain control at all times when learning any handling skill. Descent speeds mean messing up there hurts the most so an increase of a tenth of a mph could be too much. Using the same corner per session makes the likelihood of hitting something slick lower.

[@beeble2003]

Are you really doing 194mph at 3:48? ;-)

[@TrainerRoad]

Haha if only! GPS devices have recording errors from time to time, especially when around buildings, steep drop offs and densely wooded areas. If you see any irregularities in speed, just know it’s a temporary error and they will be back to normal soon!

[@JamieSmith-fz2mz]

Riders need to learn how counter-steering works and how you can have much more precise control over your steering and let you carry much more speed through turns (not get gapped). I think most riders treat cornering as a mystery and just try to muscle their way through turns and hope they make it.

[@Sionnach1601]

Excellent overall racing and race analysis. I commend you. I was critical of your descending - and then I saw your rear view! You are a VERY tall guy. Accordingly YOUR centre of gravity is also high, so it wouldn't be the easiest for you to be whipping the bike around corners. I think you need to aim for *fluid* descending, paying close attention to memorising the corners so you can make the most of your power before and after the corners. Great job though

[@TrainerRoad]

Thanks for the feedback! Height definitely influences Nate's effective center of gravity.

[@f2.8-]

Can you please make a video with tips for when you ride a crit that you have never ridden before? Also crit tips for someone that does not have a lot of crit racing experience.

[@webmanic]

Tyre size used? I would've put 28mm tyres on to soften the ride and reduce rolling resistance over that that sketchy tarmac and give stability through the corners on the descent. Great video and good to see a different type of crit.

[@TrainerRoad]

Web Manic 28mm schwalbe pro one at 80 psi. 🤘

[@faosa73]

I am curious if you have experienced different confidence turning and descending fast with different bikes? and if a different bike here could have helped. I mean there are some bikes that seem to turn by themselves make them really feel safe.

[@TrainerRoad]

Every bike will have slightly different geometry, and whether it's the angles or length (reach/chainstay etc) they will turn differently because of those. The trick is to ride as many bikes as you can and choose whatever feels best for you!

[@themidsouthcyclist8880]

You had me excited for a moment: I thought there was another crit near me where I might run into you and be famous on camera for once.... but no, not Auburn, AL. I'm a fan, though!

[@legestrom]

Don’t care if you lapped the field, with socks like that you already lost.

[@albr4]

he's almost a triathlete!

[@mschmhegrt]

will we see Pete's race?

[@TrainerRoad]

We have a couple of Pete's races coming up :)

[@stuartfrancis519]

What app and camera is used to record the metrics?

[@Pmz604]

Im totally new to this,,, hows it possible to go 97 mph ( miles per hour ? ) on a bike going uphill ?

[@TrainerRoad]

Hey Paul! Nate's not actually going 97 mph there, GPS devices just have recording errors from time to time, especially when around buildings, steep drop offs and densely wooded areas. If you see any irregularities in speed, just know it’s a temporary error and they will be back to normal soon.

[@danevans9742]

Love your videos and appreciate the coverage but your minimap on this one is looking a little off :)

[@TrainerRoad]

Daniel Evans just a bit! There was bad satellite reception for part of this race.

[@mtbdad2]

Nates badass

[@izmael_kneafcy]

Doesn’t look like any of those corners need brakes. I know it’s easy for me to say.. Pros go faster downhill because of less braking, braking in the right spot and cornering technique, carrying the speed through. Not losing any momentum. Soon as you touch the brakes the gap opens, same on a group ride. Nice over socks Nate. Geees.

[@996vtwin2]

Be smooth... its everything. never use brakes.

[@jedvillanueva3327]

“True False Flat” is a term tho? TIL

[@newbadthings]

lol. no. they're just making shit up.

[@jedvillanueva3327]

Fred Vaughn I had my doubts 🐒

[@nai4485]

True false flat hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[@jonathanzappala]

It’s got to be harder to corner when your taller. Wheel bases may grow but you still have more weight higher up I’d think.

[@morosis82]

at 6'6" and 100kg, on a quite large frame, it can feel super sketchy going fast through some of those corners, especially if the road is not great. I usually prefer to take it relatively easy unless I know the surface is ace, and get some power down coming out.

[@danieldanielo5955]

What cameras are you using?

[@TrainerRoad]

We use GoPro Hero 7 Black cameras :)

[@jdr4307]

If your ftp is 330 shouldn't you be racing cat 2 or 3

[@gmangreg]

He's a big rider, so w/kg lower

[@TrainerRoad]

When racing under USA Cycling, you have to work your way up the ranks :) Nate started as a Cat 4 at the beginning of the season (and in this race), but he has since ranked up to the Cat 3s and is now collecting points to upgrade into the Cat 2s.

[@averydaboy]

98mph?

[@TrainerRoad]

Just a GPS recording error :( GPS devices have recording errors from time to time, especially when around buildings, steep drop offs and densely wooded areas. If you see any irregularities in speed, just know it’s a temporary error and they will be back to normal soon!

[@gooblegobble3416]

I've yet to see a tall rider (other than pros.) with big confidence in the corners. Which doesn't make sense, because if lean angle is correct, then the force vectors should be the same. If you are not riding Continental GP 4000's then get some and start leaning on them! ...Push-steer ffs. Great save on the last lap btw :)

[@TrainerRoad]

gooblegobble is it the same? Since it’s a level wouldn’t you get more force at the tire? I descend much better with a road dropper post.

[@gooblegobble3416]

@@TrainerRoad But the lever(?) force is not the main force. The inertia of the rider and bike trying to remain in straight line travel is. The lean angle should be the same, per weight & speed, but tall rider's body has to travel farther distance to achieve that lean angle...making it a more significant movement. Dropper post would somewhat alleviate this in cornering (descending has additional factors). Let me know what you think.

[@dominikpastierovic8602]

@@gooblegobble3416 I'm quite small and light rider so I don't have experience firsthand, but just some basic physics. You are correct that since vector (when it is perfect) is the same, its equal for short and tall rider, but any deviation is far worse for tall rider than for shor one because taller has more weight farther from the lean point which is the road. Any diference in speed, tarmac quality, wind, or if you are foolish enough to pedal while leaning (thats especialy disruptive since its force is changing from left to right) is impacting taller rider more. And even though the vector is the same, (not sure about english term here) when you lean there is 'lever' force. Force that is produced by 1kg 10 cm from the tire is equal to only 0.5kg which is 20 cm from the tire. This is where bigger punishing forces are comming from.

[@gooblegobble3416]

@@dominikpastierovic8602 I think the difference in effect, between taller and shorter rider is overstated. For example, there are very few corners that I don't pedal through when racing. I am foolish enough, and as you stated this should offset any advantage I would have stability wise over taller riders (who don't pedal), but I still take very aggressive lines and lean angles. I think tires selection would easily make a larger difference than the quite small differences in height between tall and average height riders. It may also be attributable to timing, as tall rider has to move further (distance) to achieve same lean angle. The lever force is real but the difference is much less pronounced than your example of 10cm vs 20cm. I think 170cm vs 185cm is more realistic. You have wind, tarmac etc as variables, but I'm thinking similar conditions for both riders. Btw, your English is good :)

[@KetzalSterling]

@@TrainerRoad It's definitely worse for taller riders. Just look at your bike Nate. It's way off ideal proportions. It's dramatically taller than longer vs a small/medium sized frame. It comes from bike manufactures idiotic obsession to staying within the UCI rules re bike overall length/ front, rear center dimensions. The UCI rules on length greatly penalize taller riders. An extra large bike needs to be many inches longer to match a small or medium in overall dimensions. What all tall riders need is a manufacture with a brain to actually build a dimensionally correct race bike for riders over 6 feet tall. To be comparable in scale it would likely need larger wheels too. Tall man problems. It's an even bigger issue on a MTB.

[@alexwhittle468]

just need to have more confidence in yourself and your bike when cornering. dont worry about crashing... if it happens so what! its part of bike racing ;)

[@ClockCutter]

It's remarkable how casually you let gaps open up. I suppose that's the difference between a well-trained triathlete learning the art, and those who learned in training rides with top end amateurs, where you learn painfully quickly that just about any gap at speed may leave you dropped or desperately wasting energy closing them. Those socks will curse you. You will keep making mistakes like a triathlete until you take them off. Just sayin'.

[@salvatoremannino3389]

You are strong by the look of it but your cornering is truly ridiculous. You must get much, much lower and lean that bike way more, my friend

[@harryl5085]

hmm, your going at liek 125 mph at a flat....... sus- jk

[@TrainerRoad]

Haha, pretty suspect for sure! The reality is that GPS devices have recording errors from time to time, especially when around buildings, steep drop-offs and densely wooded areas. If you see any irregularities in speed, just know it’s a temporary error and they will be back to normal soon.

[@TheJackKWhitehouse]

Nate... Those socks are questionable!