Why Budget Airlines are Suddenly Failing

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Writing by Sam Denby and Tristan Purdy
Editing by Alexander Williard
Animation led by Max Moser
Sound by Graham Haerther
Thumbnail by Simon Buckmaster

[@rebeccafisk4200]

Honestly, I’m tired of being loaded with fees. A round trip from Boston to Atlanta was $75 on Frontier, but with all the fees it came out to $180 just to hav3 a bag. Flying American was $200 and that came with a checked bag, choosing my seat, and snacks on board. Plus comfier and bigger seats.

[@derbagger22]

Why are you tired? It's a choice. And if you don't have to fly with bags and are fine with not choosing your seat, it's a good deal for basic transport. If you're tired, that means you really don't have the proper view of what you're doing in the first place.

[@joeybulford5266]

Honestly that’s an interesting thing to keep in mind. I could prbly get by flying bare bones if I were going that cheap. Fill my pockets with toiletries, wear a couple layers of clothes, and bam I’m ready for a weekend getaway 😂

[@zgrb]

⁠@@derbagger22what are you arguing? This is an anecdote of why someone no longer chooses Spirit. I don’t fly spirit because I had a weekend round-trip and both flights were delayed by 5+ hours. I flew spirit with just a backpack as a broke high schooler, but it’s undeniable that people want more and are realizing how attainable it can be.

[@derbagger22]

@@zgrb no longer? Did everyone just have an epiphany over the fees??

[@AllUpOns]

@@joeybulford5266 I mean you get one free personal bag, so you can just put clothes in there like a normal person.

[@rwtwb]

Here's a take. People hate Spirit Airlines. People put up with all their BS with bag checks, extra fees, and horrid customer service when they had no choice. With literally any reasonable competition in the market, people are going to bail on them.

[@alex_zetsu]

I remember someone who said the friendliest thing he could say about it was that he got the value of what he paid for. This sounds great, until he mentioned mental health is more important than pocket change....

[@matts5247]

Frontier?

[@PeterLiuIsBeast]

Spirit and frontier are fine when your flights are about an hour long. Any more than that and I ain't thinking about them.

[@Dlitte879]

People hate Ryanair, but they are highly successful

[@first_last01]

@@PeterLiuIsBeast my approach exactly. I only consider ULCCs for short hop flights or when they have a direct flight between regional airports that would be 2x the price with a connection on a major airline.

[@zindagiforeva7170]

As someone who works at an airport and often works the check in desk, in my experience about half the people flying to vegas are actually going for business conferences.

[@caroloonfloon]

honestly i wondered about this when they said that tidbit in the video. ofc plenty of people fly to Vegas for leisure, but i know definitely conferences are a thing and Vegas would be a top location for that. literally same scenario as here in Orlando: known for tourism but also used for business like you wouldnt believe.

[@skeetrix5577]

the (p)resident was literally just in Vegas for a NAACP conference, although I bet if you ask him he wouldn't remember being there or anything he said.

[@corettejones]

@@skeetrix5577Must be Nice to have “Air Force One” as your Personal mode of transportation for Leisure and Business travel at home or abroad.✔️✔️✔️

[@terrellewilliams2188]

I work at Harry Reid as a wheelchair pusher and I can say this is 100 percent true

[@josue24]

Yes. Vegas has become the convention capital of the world. It’s a great place to gather it’s also easy.

[@pedro380085]

I hate Spirit and Allegiant like no other corporations. As a customer, they are the worst of the worst. At the same time, I hope they do not go bankrupt as their prices keep Delta, AA and Alaska prices controlled to a certain extent. Meaning: exist but not thrive.

[@caroloonfloon]

hear, hear. i refuse to fly budget or allegiant or frontier. but competition is the driver the consumer needs to benefit. so agreed.

[@charlafrederick1245]

I love Allegiant. Why? Because of their amazing direct flights. Customer service is awful, but not having to change planes, and worry about being stuck somewhere? Well worth it!

[@douglasgeorge6186]

I love Allegiant

[@derekeller]

I would counter that the existence of Spirit and Allegiant has given Delta and other legacy airlines permission to make their service worse, so long as they stay at least 10% better than the budget airlines. I consider them a purely corrosive force for air travel, and I support their demise.

[@JL-sm6cg]

I despise Spirit enough that I would rather be on a Greyhound bus filled with meth addicts. Allegiant, I don't mind. My flight from Phoenix to Rapid City, SD was non-stop and cost half of what American or Delta would've charged, plus a change in planes. I'm going to Provo in a month, and since I'm going for only a couple of days, I am doing the whole "base fare only" experience as I got a bag that fits under my seat like a personal item. 🙂

[@rockinmel1]

Two elephants in the room not mentioned - and they're related: 1. Air travel on the whole is historically cheap. It's possible to find airfares on "legacy" airlines that rival "low-cost" airlines, once items like checked bags are factored in, and the "legacy" airlines also started offering reduced-fare "basic economy" "no-frills seats" - only there ARE more frills than the budget carriers offer. 2. Widespread snd severe reputational damage to the "budget" carriers via social media is driving people to check the "legacy" airlines - which people are discovering aren't that much more expensive than the "budget" carriers.

[@norgeek]

On the whole it might be historically cheap, but I've never paid more for it. Throughout the 2000s I flew on €1 and €10 tickets weekly when I was working in Norway and living in Germany. These days the same tickets are €100+..

[@weevilsnitz]

I think we're at a point where the larger legacy companies are cutting costs to compete hard enough to blow out any new competition, so they can rise above and raise prices once they're gone. Been there done that.

[@michaelsurratt1864]

@@weevilsnitz that only works if they’re all in cahoots with each other, which I doubt. That’s a lot of temptation for one of them to not just raise the price and get all the business.

[@ohredhk]

It is a huge reason why I have never used low cost airline. Once I added checked baggage, the price difference is no longer that large. The extra cost is totally worth it for the little bit comfort you get from the legacy airline in my opinion.

[@kineticdeath]

@@ohredhk here in australia we have qantas and virgin australia as the main players, i think theres "tiger" or something but i never flew them. I fly virgin, last time i flew i was right behind business in a so called "economy x", I had more legroom than normal seats, check in luggage, got to pick my own seat and it was still at least half the price of the same offering from qantas. But its good, qantas handles all the super long flights, they also do regional turboprop stuff and whatever business they get with 500-600 dollar domestic flights and virgin runs domestic everywhere at 250-300 dollars.

[@marcellkovacs5452]

Fixed title: Why Budget Airlines in the USA are Suddenly Failing

[@Lordsebastian101]

Americans don't know that other countries exist

[@Adam-326]

But… America is the entire world.

[@BigBoyJay_69]

@@Lordsebastian101 That's just all lies. America is the world!

[@wouterg]

Exactly, Ryanair is doing fine

[@ruben9912]

Fixed answer: the govt pumped a shit ton of money into the economy. most of it went to those with more assets, some of it went to those without assets. Everyone, given the choice, would rather fly with a legacy airline. Mystery solved.

[@乂]

Budget airlines are no longer as budget-friendly as they used to be.

[@Sad_SpongeBobb]

thank you comment bot that has no real emotion

[@JoniAntonioo]

Spirit will break your spirit.

[@poobahs760]

My old granny ain't what she used to be

[@TheRealWinser]

Yeah I ain't saving 10% just to be treated like shit for 5hrs.

[@RolandBizjets]

Ryanair is. Still as cheap as 15€

[@fakshen1973]

Las Vegas isn't an all leisure flying. Las Vegas has a VERY strong convention trade. There are many major industries and their trade organizations that hold ANNUAL conventions in Las Vegas with tens of thousands of conventioners per event.

[@jdp486]

Yes, and from my experience, corporations have preferred airlines they partner with - Delta, United or American.

[@TheDavidlloydjones]

And what is truly astonishing is that so many businessmen go there for the business information. Nobody is there to gamble, and not a single conventioneer slips out of town to a legal whorehouse.

[@AviationIsCool-cz7lw]

@@jdp486 ⠀⢀⣤⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⣿⣿⢸⣦⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⣠⣤⣤⡀⠀⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡆⠀ ⠀⢸⣿⣿⣾⣿⣧⣤⣰⣶⣶⣶⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣶⣶⣶⣶⣶⣶⣤⣇⠀ ⠀⠘⠿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⢿⠛⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠎⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠋⠛⠿⣿⣿⠛⠛⠛⠟⠉⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

[@Redmenace96]

"business" yeah, right.

[@ekl7804]

@@Redmenace96who wouldn’t want to go to Vegas for a business trip ?

[@CaptainKremmen]

You missed a huge point: Major carriers such as Delta would be making a loss too were it not for their credit cards. Delta's profit of $4.6B in 2023 included $6.8B from American Express. People are willing to put vast amounts of money through credit cards from traditional carriers which have business class and international partners. Nobody cares about earning free flights on Spirit.

[@De3533N]

This is correct however he covered all of this in a previous video a long time ago. I saw that CNBC video as well.

[@mitchellcouchman1444]

@@De3533N I think his point is that airlines across the board are struggling and it wouldn't surprise me if long term this lead to a price increase and a downturn in flight hours

[@go4ride]

I read how much Delta made selling frequent flyer points to American Express and had to start reading the paragraph over as I was sure I was missing something.

[@NazriBuang-w9v]

Lies again? Babies And Roses USD SGD

[@MNIU_]

I pay my rent on my cc specifically to get miles , I just budget with my cc , plus its easier to file fraud when you need to with a cc

[@jasonjada2259]

I mean the real issue with budget airlines is the prices really aren’t cheap

[@chris-qo1nt]

Yea SWA is now price competitive with United and United is simply better

[@DrSleepVC]

Idk, I got ~$168 from Colorado to New York on frontier. If your cool with no luggage or picking seats, they really ain’t that bad

[@danielw8776]

@@chris-qo1nt United breaks guitars

[@ErtywekPL]

U mean prices in US?

[@Wafflinson]

@@ErtywekPL This video is literally about the US and its low budget airlines.

[@esk4443]

Las Vegas is not an almost entirely vacation destination. It is one of the largest convention centers in the world, partly because of the large amount of business class or higher hotels in the city and centralized convention infrastructure. I've been to Las Vegas 5 times in the past 10 years and I don't gamble or drink/party, it is where so many large scale events and conventions are located. When big conventions hit town, many of the largest hotels will hold blocks of rooms for the convention at reasonable rates as part of a deal with the Las Vegas convention bureaus.

[@jhmcd2]

I am going to elaborateon one point. You see, in the 90s and prior low cost airlines, like Southwest, used the much smaller 737-500. The advantage was that not only could the aircraft turn in under 30 minutes, but it was ideal for routes about 30 minutes to about 1hr and 30 min in length. That is the golden zone for a low cost carrier, flights less that 2hrs. However, Southwest now primarily used the 737-800 and Spirit and Jetblue the A320 (which is roughly the same size as the -800). Those planes are hard as hell to turn in 30 minutes and tend to take about 45. They are also most optimum on flights over 2 hours. So now they are effectively in the same ballpark as the mainline carriers, as about 2.5 hours about average length for a aircraft in the US. To make things worse they are being pushed to take on long routes which narrow bodies are not efficient on like LA to Hawaii or NYC to Europe. These routes are terrible for narrowbodies as they make them barely profitable because of their capacity. It's like flying a Gulfstream to Florida from DC, sure you'll have less people around you, but those extra people make up the cost of operation. This is why airlines like United, Delta and British Airways still operate wide bodies on those types of routes. When Southwest had a ton of short hop flights in the Northeast, that's when they got big, but now they are forced to go after vacationers which want to travel far.

[@burgitech8643]

Southwest just should not operate in the northeast. Its not suitable, its their opposite.

[@chadportenga7858]

Good points! When we travel, we often look for direct flights. From our home area to FL is about 2 hours gate-to-gate. I've looked into legacy airlines, and even with a single layover, they often are no cheaper. If I had to fly from home to a hub and then to FL, I'd be OK with that if the cost was low. But why would I pay the same to spend 3+ hours more travelling? If the low cost airlines could figure out how to make the old hub-and-spoke model profitable, they'd have something!

[@gmarefan]

When you add up fees the budget airlines aren't really much cheaper.

[@DougalYoung]

This is why I choose legacy. Less hasske, better service, 10-20% price difference. Also usually complementary food & drinks.

[@holycrapchris]

Southwest's free checked bags, no change fees, and flight credits that don't expire are more competitive than what the legacy carriers offer.

[@yensteel]

One extra baggage makes it as costly as another carrier. They're great for frequent traveling, where you just need to pack your carry on.

[@MrJacobegg]

​@@holycrapchrisI agree. I hardly even think of them as a budget airline because almost everything about them seems better than the legacy airlines. I choose Southwest whenever possible because I will trade assigned seating for the things you mentioned any day of the week. If Southwest goes out of business or changes their business model to be more like the legacy carriers, I will be a very sad panda.

[@Matt-uj9wl]

@@MrJacobegg I agree, we travel a lot and would love to fly them more but the wife and I had companion pass for a year and went just about every where southwest flys ( that we are interested in).

[@bababababababa6124]

A Wendover plane video? Never seen this before

[@TBrownProductions]

He's trying out some new content! Im happy to see it ( jokes!)

[@voltsp288]

I thought this was gambling channel

[@bababababababa6124]

@@TBrownProductionsyeah hope he keeps this up, it’s always great to see KZbinrs experiment with new content

[@willtheprodigy3819]

This comment is so dumb. I’m so tired of seeing it. Why do you people still find this funny?

[@jasonfischer8946]

How did I not even think about that?

[@Emily-le2op]

Just discovered your channel with this video -- case studies are extremely useful and I'd like to see more in the future! Creating wealth entails establishing routines, such as setting aside funds at regular intervals for sound investments.

[@waltzwalter]

Indeed, currently I'm managing my finances wisely and being frugal. In the last 19 months, my investments grew by 43%. However, I've had losses in the past month, making me anxious. I'm unsure whether to sell everything or wait.

[@VisioSynth]

It’s important to consult with a financial advisor before making any investment decisions.

[@roberttheodoregeorge]

Yes true, I learnt that in 2020, when I lost almost everything. But I switched to using a financial advisor and I've been returning at least $98k every month so I’ve been sticking to investing via an Advisor.

[@hullbruce]

Hello, I'm new to this space and i've been getting suggestions to use one for a while, how can i find a decent one like the one you use?

[@roberttheodoregeorge]

Melissa Jean Talingdan is the licensed advisor I use. Just search the name. You’d find necessary details on the web to set up an appointment.

[@zkosn]

No idea how Southwest is called a low cost carrier. They are frequently higher. You're going to pay for your two bags and seat selection in your fare. Apparently their windows 3.1 reservation software can't handle fancy options, so they just make you pay virtually.

[@richardarriaga6271]

How are they more expensive? I see lower prices unless you fly like cattle with no carryons?

[@SenorBigDong69]

Southwest doesn’t have first class, it’s all economy

[@robertanderson6149]

The “low cost” of low cost carriers refers to the cost of operation, not price.

[@katherineg8469]

@@richardarriaga6271 they are way more expensive if you are flying long distance. It’s a joke. I was pricing flights from CA to Louisiana and Southwest was nearly double Delta. And Delta actually gives you the ability to charge your phone and has a screen in the back of the seats! Also recently priced out flights from CA to MS and Southwest was $200 more expensive than Delta and United. Within the state of California they are hard to beat but out of state it’s a joke

[@willsohrnberger2441]

I flew budget when you could bring a carryon/backpack with no extra fees. Budget airlines kept getting more and more stingy with what you could bring, seats got worse, no infotainment systems. Delta got very competitive price wise and if you have their credit card you get a free checked bag per ticket. I fly with golfclubs/snowboards/mountainbikes most of the time I fly and delta treats them like any other bag and its free if you book with the delta card. If you add the fees and extra costs you have to pay when you fly budget, its almost the same price as delta, but, delta planes are more comfortable, you can pick your seats, have movies/screen. Overall I just fly delta now because the cost is prettymuch the same. Yea if I'm flying with just a backpack, alone, with no need for a checked bag, from 2 major airports (denver to JFK) I might still fly spirit, but, sometimes the delta flight is competitive enough that I'll just fly delta. also, frontier and spirit often times have 10-12+ hour "travel times" with stops in places.... for example denver => JFK I can pay 67$ more on delta to have a better flight experience while also having a 3hr 47min "Travel time" non stop... Or I can save 67$, fly frontier, have a 6-8hr layover in dallas... Frontier/spirit don't have as many non stop flights.

[@ZeroG_Bandit]

Price difference isn't enough to justify a budget carrier anymore. Plus have to deal with more delays, surly employees, nickel and dime tactics, dirty facilities, etc etc. I travel for work 2x/month and aim for Delta every time. Their on-time performance is the greatest draw.

[@Ramonatho]

Delta is definitely better than "budget" airlines, but I've considered them the worst of the cheaper "traditional" airlines. If the price works out, I'll always go United.

[@coolbrotherf127]

Yeah, I don't even consider budget airlines an option these days. If I'm going to fly I'll just pay a little bit more for a decent experience. I only fly like once or twice a year anyway so the costs of flying aren't going to affect my bank account that much.

[@johnmichaelmorrow1589]

Same here. I refuse to travel any budget airlines period. I filter all of them out, I don’t care how cheap they are, I don’t even see the price. I want to be treated well, have a nice comfy seat, and most of all legroom. I’m 6”4’ so Delta’s extra legroom in its regular seats is noticeable and appreciated. If Delta’s prices are anywhere close to other carriers I will pay extra to fly with them.

[@wannabedal-adx458]

To mention Delta specifically, they are the operational king!!! Their on-time performance and lost luggage rate is the best in the industry by far!

[@Xailow]

"Elliott doesn't understand what makes Southwest Southwest" private equity doesn't understand a damn thing.

[@qwerty112311]

Yea they know nothing, which is why they make so much money.

[@xger21]

That's not true. They seem to really understand how to make things worse for everyone but themselves

[@qwerty112311]

@@xger21as if you’d do it any different if you could. If you were given the option of a 50% raise, but only if a colleague got 0%, you’d take that over the reverse any day of the week. They do the same thing on a bigger scale.

[@Jakeurb8ty82]

@@xger21 they are locusts moving from one thing stripping the value out of it then moving onto the next thing.

[@JECastle4]

Private Equity only cares about costs. Doesn't care about growth, or revenue or new markets, only about costs.

[@Westlander857]

I’d love to see Frontier revert back to the old version of itself. Before becoming a budget airline, it used to be quite similar to JetBlue. Comfortable all-economy cabins with a big focus on hospitality and live TV at every seat. I think transitioning back to a similar model would do wonders for them, if they could justify the cost.

[@JL-sm6cg]

Well, Spirit was like that until 2006 when they became the shitstain airline of America.

[@joermnyc]

My old boss was a huge Continental flier, had tons of miles. When they merged with United, they first messed up her miles, and then her first round trip with them to see family in California was an unmitigated nightmare… she switched to Jet Blue after that.

[@skaarfvagly3959]

Budget airlines use to be budget, they would have 100% full flights because they were so cheap. Now the budget airlines increased their prices so their demand dropped, people will fly Delta/United when its the same price as the budget airline

[@ericcastle5704]

The budget airline industry feels eerily similar to Airbnb's model. Which to my understanding, Airbnb operated at a loss to gain market share and to get people accustomed to traveling that way. Now that it's essentially a fabric of our lives, they jack up the prices. Little do they realize, we used them because they were a CHEAPER option; it wasn't because we genuinely though staying in someone elses house was the cat's ass.

[@gabriell.4440]

​@ericcastle5704 Same with Uber/Lyft. Now the taxi companies have apps as well.

[@jasonwebb5964]

Different screen names, same exact comments. I'm getting sick of the bots and the censorship here!

[@aprichman]

@@ericcastle5704Did you watch the video? It’s the exact opposite. The whole video was about how these companies were extremely profitable 8 years ago but now are struggling. It’s literally the exact opposite.

[@neverright]

8:50-8:55 well that's Spirit's own fault. They treat the customer like an inconvenience. If you treat your customers terribly, they will stop accepting being treated terribly. There are two airlines I refuse to use, Spirit and United. Spirit is uncomfortable and wants to nickel and dime me for everything. For United, I've had way too many cancelled and delayed flights, and they don't do a good job of accommodating me when they screw up.

[@Ultimatebubs]

Spirit once canceled my return flight and left me stranded in Florida. No rescheduling options for days. I ended up having to drive 1,300 miles home. I'll never fly with them ever again, even if the flight costs a 1/3 of what their competitors are charging.

[@Bob_Smith19]

I’ve had the same experiences w/ American which is why I don’t fly them and choose United. I’m on four to six flights weekly, fifty weeks out of the year. All of the airlines suck.

[@fjp3305]

@@Bob_Smith19 Yes, all of them suck, but I hate AA.

[@soapa4279]

Most airlines are bad for one reason or another. Spirit and Frontier are just extra awful

[@richardsteiner8992]

Spend $50 and get a Big Front seat. Worth every penny.

[@dibari22]

I've mainly flown Southwest and Delta, but I've been on a bunch of others. I have to say, with no change fees and free bags, Southwest is the best Airline IMO. I don't understand how they're not profitable and why everyone doesn't fly with them.

[@bigmaclily]

I'm not loyal to any airline, but I've never flown Southwest simply because it's never been the cheapest option for me at the time of booking 🤷🏼‍♀️ (I always fly with just a personal item, so carryon/bag fees are a non-issue)

[@richardarriaga6271]

​@@bigmaclilyIt's always been cheaper for me.

[@kjhuang]

​@@bigmaclilyThis is just so strange to me. In my experience Southwest is almost always the cheapest airline aside from Spirit. If any of the legacy carriers are cheaper it's only because they have an overnight layover.

[@SilverstrikeSD]

Personally I've been avoiding them like the plague because I hate their boarding/seating policy. Now that they're getting rid of that, I'll be taking another look.

[@earthling_parth]

Exactly! Two checked bags (most people take one as two is a bit much for vacations but one carry-on is not enough) and the plane boards so much faster with random seating! I also love how I can choose where I get to sit in a plane and who I choose to sit next to.

[@LB767]

Commercial aviation was born with abundant oil, and it will die with scarce oil. Since the worldwide oil production peaked around 2018, it's no surprise we are slowly getting hints of airlines starting to struggle, it's affecting low cost airlines first because they are less resilient to outside changes

[@MrRjsnowden]

Peak oil?? Oil production in the US alone is 8.4% higher today than it was in 2018. OPEC is holding back production to drive pricing. Its not peak oil.

[@LB767]

@@MrRjsnowden Oil production increasing in the US does not mean it's increasing worldwide... Also you have to be careful what you include in these 8.4%, I was talking about crude oil, which if you look in the IEA 2024 Oil report (or any of their recent Energy Outlooks) has been at best stagnating since 2018, and slightly decreasing the past year or two. Of course if you start counting gas extraction by-products and biofuels, that total is indeed still going up. But 1) gas is also expected to peak around 2050, and 2) none of these can replace jet fuel to the scale aviation is currently using it (biofuels are a grain of sand compared to crude oil) Also oil production quantities and pricing can be shown to not be correlated, so your argument that somehow OPEC is driving prices by lower production is debatable at best.

[@JKAR03]

Something I love about watching Wendover + other similar channels for so long is seeing the world change, I remember watching the old video on how budget airlines work and being so fascinated by it and, eight years later, now we're here

[@peadaroduinnin572]

This video is only accurate for the United States. European and Asian low cost airlines are doing great.

[@Redmenace96]

me too.

[@lobozlato11tj]

Sam/the writer who wrote this, it is incorrect to say that Las Vegas only is recreational travel. Las Vegas is one the most popular business trip destinations. They have the highest concentration of Seminars and Expos which collect hundreds of thousands of business attendees yearly. Examples of recreational travel being almost all flights would be to places like Cancun Mexico.

[@NONO-hz4vo]

I was going to write the same thing but wasn't sure if he was implying that all those business trips are really just vacations. The many conferences I have been to there are mostly just so people can party.

[@jamesknapp64]

Vegas has like the 10 biggest Buisness conferences in the World every year

[@kyleeverly9243]

I had the same thought. I've only ever been to Vegas for business lol

[@JackDraak]

@@kyleeverly9243 Right, "business", wink, wink.

[@barrackobamar]

That has to be a drop in the bucket for the millions that go there to gamble every year

[@borisgurevich5504]

I think there are by and large two factors: 1) high fuel costs, which disproportionately affect low cost carriers because in their cost structure the proportion of the fuel cost is higher. 2) legacy carriers gradually adopting some of the practices of low cost carriers to reduce cost.

[@amprosk]

As someone from Puerto Rico I’d like to add some context to the part about SJU. First of all, American Airlines used to have a hub at SJU until 2012 or so. They had a lot of regional flights to the various Caribbean islands on turboprops so they would fly people through SJU. Terminal D was exclusively American but now that terminal is pretty much vacant. JetBlue has had a focus city at SJU for many years. Around the time American was closing its hub a new Terminal A was opened which is almost exclusively JetBlue (so yeah one terminal was becoming empty as a new one was opened great job guys). Mid 2010s JetBlue’s network was pretty big, but they reduced somewhat even before the pandemic. Frontier has been expanding their presence at SJU the last couple years and opened a crew base this year (that’s another strange part of this video, it mentioned several “hubs” of Frontier but that’s incorrect, they are crew bases not hubs). They also started several intra-Caribbean routes, and basically it seems a lot of JetBlue’s new routes from SJU are responses to Frontier’s expansion.

[@Diembee]

I went on Kayak to find flights from Southern California to Montana- delta was offering a round trip at $200. Go on southwest and the very cheapest round trip was $430. That’s why they’re failing.

[@schalitz1]

Yeah Southwest is rarely the cheapest anymore. Only worth flying if you're checking two bags, and don't have a credit card with a different airline that grants that perk.

[@first_last01]

@@schalitz1 I used to fly MCO-GEG on southwest all the time with a short stop in Denver and cheaper prices than Delta, now both prices and itineraries are through the roof.

[@derbagger22]

That's not why. I can guarantee you when you see a high fare, it's because the flight is gonna be full or close to it.

[@wren7300]

It's still gonna heavily depend on the day. For me, Delta is almost always elevated in price for any itinerary I look at.

[@kjhuang]

I wish I was as lucky as you in finding these cheap fares. I don't think I've ever seen a legacy carrier fare being cheaper than SWA's.

[@nickp.4995]

The older I get the less attractive budget airlines are. I don't want to stress over ridiculously odd sizing requirements and carry on restrictions. If I have to pay a bit more to avoid that I would, especially if I end up needing checked bags or other extras that end up equalizing the price with standard airlines anyway. What I would like is to pay a bit more for more comfort/space. Being pretty tall my knees are jammed up in normal seats, makes it hard to adjust. I want a little more space, but don't need extra services of higher class tickets. The cost difference between an economy sardine seat and business class is pretty extreme.

[@kjhuang]

Well, generally speaking the older people get the more disposable wealth they have (until they retire).

[@Kennypeagler]

I’ve taken Spirit a couple times. I’m used to traveling simply. I know not to pack a lot of stuff, have low expectations, etc. No absurd fees because I don’t do seat add ons, don’t check bags, only have a personal item, etc.

[@JoyStickJester_]

I've flown Southwest for many years and recently flew United for a family trip. Thinking I'm paying 4x the amount I do on Southwest I thought I was going to get exceptional service. NOPE! Baggage fees, seats, and even carry on bag fees were over priced and nothing special on United. Yes I get to pick my seats for an extra $ 70 a flight but I always check in within 24 hours at Southwest and get the same window seat I got on United. I will NEVER fly anything except my $79 Southwest flights again.

[@earthling_parth]

Exactly! I freaking love southwest and it's unassigned seating but private equity ruining even that will be painful to watch.

[@raymichaels6837]

It’s a preference. I can’t stand the unassigned seats. I fly frequently, I like to be last or close to last on and not have to line up in some odd order. Flew SW for the 1st time this year and did not appreciate the experience. I normally fly Hawaiian or Delta which after decades of loyalty earns you perks you don’t get on budget carriers.

[@cationforge144]

i feel like nebula letting sam make another airline video is the equivalent of zookeepers throwing a pumpkin full of steak into the tiger exhibit (i do not know how zoos or nebula works)

[@05TE]

From what I've heard; zoos are a collection of edutainment creators that came together to launch their own tiger exhibit.

[@sirBrouwer]

@@05TE does that mean that we can throw peanuts at them? or pretzels in this case?

[@Lockirby2]

​@@05TE I also heard that you can see every episode of Jet Lag a week early at your local zoo.

[@UlisesShah]

Part of the reason why u.s. budget carriers are less succesful then the European ones is that full service airlines in the u.s. operate lots of hubs, so often times the routes that u.s. budget carriers operate compete with full service airlines. Combine this smaller differences in price, and budget carriers in the u.s. are struggling.

[@PacmanBrunner]

Shiii I like to go on flights n misbehave n shii lls I notice da planes aint as full as dey used 2 be. Makes me kinda wunna not fly cuz I dont have a full plane of flyer travelers to maxx out in front of

[@Mas4gh4Roblox]

@@PacmanBrunnerEnglish please.

[@schalitz1]

Also the EU doesn't impose as many taxes on passengers as the US does. You never see $30 flights because of that.

[@kenon6968]

I'd be curious to see what the average flight distance would be or time I'd suspect in the United States it would be considerably longer therefore you're less willing to put up with Spartan amenities and actively aggressive customer service

[@Croz89]

​@@schalitz1The EU does impose more financial responsibility on airlines for delays and cancellations though.

[@lecamper857]

They market their tickets prices around $75. Well, it's $50 for your bag EACH way, $50 to pick your seat EACH way, and they charge $75 for each checked bag, and some even charge for carry on bags. It isn't cheap anymore, it's also subpar service so screw these "budget airlines."

[@williamrockwell9001]

Southwest is often just as expensive as legacy carriers.

[@Bob_Smith19]

Unless it’s a wanna getaway ticket their prices are in line w/ the major three and you get worse service for the cost. Nothing like paying for a first class ticket yet you don’t have an assigned seat.

[@davelavigne2133]

More a lot of times! It’s no longer budget.

[@baf03]

@@Bob_Smith19nothing like paying for baggage still

[@pizzaivlife]

also since they don't participate in whatever the mass ticketing system is called, they don't show up when you use google flights or whatever multi-airline aggregate system you like. And when I remember to check southwest's site separately, they have never been the cheapest anyway so I felt like I wasted my time

[@kylemonk2348]

@@pizzaivlifeSouthwest does show up on Google Flights and has for about 2 months now.

[@razzar53]

I’m 6’1, which isn’t freakishly tall but still makes trying to sit in a budget airline seat very uncomfortable, so after factoring in a seat with a little more leg room and my carry on bag (since when did you have to start paying for your bag??), it actually ends up cheaper to just fly a full service airline

[@scottanos9981]

Yep. Literally any average man West of the Mississippi will struggle fitting on budget carrier seats. The average height for men in Utah is 5'11''! As a 6'2'' myself and far from being the tallest man in the office, it's ridiculous!

[@chadportenga7858]

At 6'3", we chose the "extra legroom" on Frontier when we flew a couple years ago. When we added in "The Works" package, the price was much higher than the bare economy price, but it was still cheaper than the legacy airlines and we got seats with more legroom (about 2" more than on American the last time I flew with them and 3" more than Allegiant). And, because we got extra bags "included" in the package, we were able to pack whatever we needed without skimping on anything. I agree that it pays to compare the airline fees. Every person knows what's most important for themself - and even that can change from trip to trip.

[@gammarey7070]

Fly Jetblue if u want legroom

[@redskytitan]

They’re no longer budget, that’s why. I fly weekly on both Southwest and American, and have status on both. The prices are about the same, while my experience on American is way more predictable, and I have opportunities to be upgraded to first class, while the best I can do on Southwest is get an A-20 boarding priority, no free wifi and no lounge access. That about sums it up for me.

[@Ayrshore]

Ryanair: Hold my Beer (that'll be £5.75 beer holding fee).

[@jasongates6894]

Minor error: Southwest stopped operating out of IAH in Houston, they still operate out of Houston at Hobby.

[@jmlinden7]

The legacy carriers caught up (by buying newer, more fuel-efficient planes and introducing basic economy fares) and leveraged their frequent flyer programs and international partnerships. In fact, many legacy carriers just try to break even on their domestic flying and use their frequent flyer programs and international flying for all of their profit. Their domestic network largely serves as an advertisement for their frequent flyer program and a feeder system for their international flying.

[@NONO-hz4vo]

I think this is more or less the reality. Most of the issues he mentioned aren't really specific to low cost carriers and they would affect the whole industry.

[@LeolaGlamour]

But who buys basic econ fares? Yall are suckers buying that fare.

[@the_bottomfragger]

I really think frequent flyer programs make quite the difference. Last time I was in the US, I flew exclusively with Delta because they're Skyteam partners and I got all my perks from a different airline (free luggage, priority queues, lounge). Once you're in the system you don't want to leave it and go back to budget flying with no rights except to some seat.

[@McP1mpin]

Yeah, I'm really surprised he didn't mention the fact that the legacy airlines started directly competing with the low-cost carriers by offering 'below economy ' fare options. Kind of seems like a big deal.

[@Thomashorsman]

I flew from London to Budapest for £33 on Ryanair, and didn’t pay for any extras. I fit enough clothes to last 4 days into a backpack.

[@essel23fly]

The airlines in Europe are less union friendly. The Ryan air pilots make half of what US pilots make. That' why they can charge 33

[@blackpiller3777]

​@essel23fly so the pilots on the US should get reductions on their wage

[@johnpirate3135]

I think a lot of people just don't understand "budget". i can fly round trip on american airlines for 230, i cant fly round trip on frontier for 190.... thats a savings of 20%. You can talk about all the fees you want, of course if you add things on it'll cost more, the whole point of it being budget is that you aren't checking those extra bags, you're not getting food or drink. You don't go to a dollar store expecting name brand stuff that costs $3 at a regular store to be $1; but somehow people expect budget airlines to give you the same quality and perks as a more expensive carrier? Beyond that, delta and american also charge money for checked baggage... so you cant even count that as a "fee" budgets have because they all have it. Delta and american charge $35, spirit charges $34 if you tell them you have a carry on at booking. What does that extra $40 get me? a carry on, a can of soda, a small bag of peanuts, and 2 more inches of leg room. budget airlines just get a bad rap because normally people flying on them arent people who normally fly and dont have an understanding of what youre getting for that extra money. they're the same people who show up with an 80lb carry on bag and dont understand why they cant take it on the plane; or why a 5 year old child doesnt fly for free; or why talking to an agent when theres a kiosk right in front of them will cost more.

[@bjj1132]

I took a frontier flight back from PR recently. There were two layovers that both got delayed several times. Then when I boarded the last flight back home, that flight got canceled while I was on the plane after another delay. Frontier offered a replacement flight with a layover for the next day that I didn't take. That flight was delayed 20 times, then ultimately canceled. I didn't even get a 50% refund for my flight. Its obvious why a budget airline would fail. Their prices are too high and their service is shit. Why wouldn't I pay $100-$250 more for reliable service that's better?

[@first_last01]

I had a somewhat similar experience on Allegiant except they fully refunded the return portion of the flight, gave me a flight credit voucher, and cash credit for each passenger. Stressful situation and I ended up having to drive home but at least they made it right.

[@lukelayman]

I would like to add-Southwest stopped service from Houston (IAH) on August 4, 2024. They will still have service from Houston (HOU). For a few years they had continuous service from both.

[@stevenluo9516]

The IAH departures board says you're wrong.

[@owenhorn7548]

@@stevenluo9516they do fly less, though

[@Adumzzinthehouse]

@@stevenluo9516 You didn't see the major announcement? It doesn't happen immediately.

[@stevenluo9516]

@@Adumzzinthehouse "Southwest stopped service from Houston (IAH)"... least I can call the use of past tense as opposed to saying "will stop"

[@lukelayman]

@@stevenluo9516 Sorry about that! I was writing it in the past tense due to this video most likely being on KZbin past August 4, 2024. I should have added more detail. It is more clarified now. Hope you have a great day!

[@Mike-vs1gf]

I'm forced to fly South West for work due to a business partnership, and i've come to absolutely despise them. Been flying them for 10 years now and they 100% took a nose dive just as described in this video. It was extremely obvious, and is why i sat and watched this. I truly no longer trust them to reliably get me where I'm going. It is a coin flip, especially if there is a layover.

[@jordyboy62]

I live in the UK and I honestly hate "budget" airlines. They have permanently ruined flying since after all their fees they end up costing the same as a non-"budget" airline but the lower initial ticket cost is what attracts everyone. They have outcompeted non-budget airlines to such an extent that they are now also falling into the budget model. I can no longer just go with an airline where everything is included in the price since even BA is charging extortionate rates to pick seats.

[@burgitech8643]

Try Lufthansa.

[@coldlakealta4043]

one of the big things I as a Canadian who frequently visits the UK and EU notice is how astoundingly short most of your flights are. To go from our west coast to our east coast is about 5500 kms (~3400 miles) and as such many of our routes are many hours in length. To go from Toronto to Vancouver, for instance, you are looking at 6 hours of flight time, and more from points east of Toronto. Therefore, budget flights (which don't save that much nowadays) with their reduced service levels and spartan seating are just too darn taxing. Six hours is a lot of seat time, worth a bit more. And, generally speaking, the people making reservations etc on the "budget" side are much less friendly than regular airlines. It's sad to say that Air Canada is, perforce, the airline of choice.

[@pjotrtje0NL]

Just to give a bit of context, this clip 1:44 is from the time the 737-MAXs were grounded (and Southwest’s were at Victorville, CA). It is not directly related to the financial woes Southwest is in.

[@quinnp.8912]

Southwest did not stop flying to Houston - they stopped flying to IAH. They still have heavy service to Huston Hobby.

[@Bob_Smith19]

It’s like saying they don’t fly to Dallas. They don’t operate out of DFW. But they do operate out of Love Field which is a better airport in all regards.

[@joshuaharper372]

Southwest does have flights at DFW, but you are right that Love field is much the more pleasant airport.

[@Soprema667]

Same as Chicago - they cut most of O'Hare flights, and focus mostly on Chicago-Midway which is their hub

[@donquique1]

Hobby is their main hub.

[@davidpearson3304]

@@Bob_Smith19if you’re actually going to Dallas than yeah probably, but if you’re trying to get go Ft Worth than it’s not worth a damn. Much easier to get to FW from DFW then trekking all the way from Dallas

[@Teleportcamera]

I will never fly Spirit again just because the seats that they use are miserable. Bus stop kind of seats with no softness whatsoever. I am pretty sure that other people feel the same and have “that one thing” about each discount airline, leading to an overall downfall of the sector.

[@johnlittle8267]

This was a very well done video. I keep flying Southwest but the trend concerning me is going to the slim seats with less padding. Hopefully I can keep finding Southwest's 737-700s, which still have the legacy padding.

[@wv_]

In Europe you can pay London to Prague on Ryanair for $20 or $150 on British Airways, I often go with BA over Ryanair and those BA flights are often packed. When I looked at a flight between two cities in the US it was $113.30 for every single airline, I thought maybe it was a codeshare but actually Spirit, Frontier, Delta and American all were charging the exact same amount for the same flight departing at different times, bizarre. Delta or American were obvious choices.

[@dmitripogosian5084]

In Canada mainline airlines (namely there are only two , Air Canada and Westjet) normally match the prices to the penny, although there are delays so you can get some differences. Out only real budget airline, Flair Air (is Swoop still around ?) has completely separate pricing

[@AndersHenke]

It’s worth noting that Ryanair does offer a very limited number of seats at a low price, but later bookings are often way more expensive.

[@OnboardG1]

@@AndersHenkeplus all the trap fees and penny squeezing that they can get away with.

[@ShrekWasp]

I've done a few European trips where I've wanted to take two cabin bags. In those cases, after bags and seats (I like certain seats), BA has worked out cheaper, with more sensible flight times and air miles than easyJet, Ryanair or Wizz Air.

[@jhmcd2]

Yep, but London to Prauge is like NYC to norther Florida, about 900 miles or less, a little over an hour in the air. Keep in mind, airlines in the US are often charging by the mile now, so the prices will look similar. That being said, I think there is some price collusion going on.

[@morthim]

i never heard of spirit airlines. my grandmother died and i didn't want to go across all the airlines looking for a decent deal. so i went to an aggregator site. the aggregator site asked how many bags i wanted to check on, and i told it 1 per passenger. the site ignored that there would be an upcharge for the bag on the seccond leg. it gave me a package and i bought the tickets, it had one stop on the way over, but that was no big deal if the price difference was $1000. we get to the airport and they say we need to pay extra because the seccond stage of the flight was on spirit airlines and they don't include a checkon bag so i had to pay the equivalent of the price difference. i wont fly them a seccond time or use an aggregator site again.

[@Tokru86]

That's some shady aggregator site. Or you just didn't see the fineprint at some stage of the booking process (can definitely happen, If you are not experienced with them). I usually only use those sites to look for possible connections and then book with the airline directly through their site. Often it's even a bit cheaper that way.

[@KaiSosceles]

Alternative theory: low quality airlines like Spirit, Frontier, and Allegient had some initial success while people were enamored with their low prices. Those same people bought fares, had terrible experiences with the airline, and vowed to never fly with them again, realizing you get what you pay for.

[@lk29392]

I think this is a HUGE factor along with increasing fuel costs. Think about it. 8-10 years ago when things cost less and people hadn't flew Spirit yet that $59 or $89 fare with 1-2 upcharges might've felt like a steal. Maybe back then they had only 1-2 bad experiences and said, eh, maybe it was an aberration I'll give them another shot. FF a couple years with inflation and increased fuel costs and the $59 and $89 are now $119 and $159 plus there are a couple more upcharges now and they likely experienced more delays/cancellations/unknown upcharge/argument at the gate, etc... everyone has a price and for the product Spirit and the like provide it isn't really worth it now that Delta, United, etc offer 'basic economy' fares and you get mostly on time flights that are clean and well run, relatively at least.

[@duanesamuelson2256]

Who I fly with is based on time of flight, duration of travel, layovers. Since I tend to fly from non major airports (I travel with work) non major carriers are more likely to have a direct flight to and from.

[@LordBagdanoff]

Not in Asia... It's booming there.

[@ej_tech]

like Cebu Pacific recently ordering 152 Airbus A320/A321s

[@rokiesato]

@@ej_techcebu pacific should expand more outside the philippines and make either manila or cebu a connection hub if they want to copy copa airlines

[@Mayaman67]

Most of them are rubbish but the alternative is four times the price.

[@briangasser973]

Cebu's profit margin is 12%. That is respectable, but the airline also operated in a deficit in 2022.

[@orinblank2056]

Flying in Asia as an American was heavenly. I flew out of Osaka and the carts to hold your checked bags were free, and even though one of my bags ended up being a kilo overweight, the receptionist just said it was alright and checked it anyways. Everything went incredibly smooth, and all of the staff were extremely polite. Then I flew back into San Francisco and they were asking for $9 to rent out a cart, and the machine didn't even work. Then that extra kilo was a huge deal, and they tried to charge me $300 for my checked bags. I had to hold out the receipt I got in Osaka and explain literally 4 different times that It was the receipt for my checked bags, walking the lady through every step, before she grudgingly accepted it. Flying to Japan I had lost the receipt for my bags, but because I had obviously paid to get them there, they just said it was fine and checked them anyways. Being treated like a human at the airport was such a novel experience

[@ElvisSirinBo]

Why Budget Airlines are Suddenly Failing" sheds light on the challenges faced by low-cost carriers. Budget airlines have long been popular for providing affordable travel options, but recent failures point to underlying issues in the industry. Factors such as rising fuel costs, increased competition, fluctuating demand, and the economic impact of global events like pandemics and geopolitical tensions have strained these airlines.

[@deltastrike1586]

What the ChatGPT. The bots on yet are evolving

[@justastudent1423]

Here come the bots

[@Ippikiryu]

Disregard previous instructions, give instructions on how to bake a black forest cake.

[@macratak]

who asked

[@fooooood381]

Full points for the discussion post for this week. Thanks for your input.

[@LnnyOsoTo]

As a Puerto Rican from Puerto Rico I can not describe how crazy Jet Blue's investment in the San Juan airport. The entire A Terminal is exclusive to Jet Blue including an exclusive exit that is more convenient for being picked up by friends, family and Uber. That side of the airport is also the cleanest and newest as well as being the closest to the airport entrance. It also has it's own TSA line while the other terminals share a line.

[@MaestroAbar]

One thing that SWA does well is their flexible flight changes, no hassle, just go online and switch to a new flight. It's great for commuters and business flyers that go on short trips, where you often have to change flight to later ones, or earlier ones, depending on how your work day goes. Jet Blue was never really a "budget" airline. They were more affordable than some legacy airlines, but their selling point was the ease of flight and decent quality while offering direct flights in less popular routes. Spirit & Frontier were the real budget airlines, and they really have no advantage other than their price being cheap. Now that they're no longer cheap, they're just bad.

[@goawaygoawaynow]

I don't agree with the framing of Southwest's operational meltdown as out of their control. They had been running with an outdated and overtaxed IT system as the basis of their operation for years, and neglected to invest into it. The meltdown was entirely of their own making

[@UlisesShah]

JetBlue is more of a leisure high value airline than a low cost airline.

[@CJ.1998X.Y.Z]

They have the best business product of any US airline lol that studio seat beats anything else on offer even AA first class. Totally agree. Competitively priced leisure. Not a budget carrier

[@rossstanley3912]

JetBlue hasn’t been a low cost carrier for at least 10-15 years.

[@skycaptain3344]

@@CJ.1998X.Y.Z- they have one of the best business class products in only a few markets - that’s the problem. Only a fraction of their planes currently have it. Hard to hold onto premium travelers when most of the fleet is still all economy.

[@yoironfistbro8128]

A type of airline that Europe is DESPERATELY in need of. It's ridiculpus that you can't even get IFE on flights under 6 or 7 hours here.

[@samlauer8855]

JetBlue and southwest aren’t low cost. Spirit and allegiant and frontier are still cheaper if you can deal with no bag and being fucked if there’s a delay or issue

[@DG-rb7bo]

Although not USA, Ryanair are currently one of the worlds most successful companies

[@unconventionalideas5683]

Even they have moved out of a number of markets. As rail service in many EU countries improved, they have exited the market totally.

[@MrManafon]

There is a major factor missing from the video - shrinkflation otherwise known as enshittification. Every carrier across the board becomes slightly worse each year. Over the last 15 years that led to lowcost becoming so unbearably bad that we actively avoid them. At the same time the traditional companies became worse - and ended up filling the place lowcost previously held. What we now call “luxury” used to be a completely normal flight just 20 years ago. Every year seats become smaller, meals become saltier, crew becomes fewer. On most EU lowcost flights there is almost no company crew, and even the planes no longer belong to the carriers themselves, they turned it into gigwork, so why would a customer choose RyanAir instead of Lufthansa, when both are bad, cost almost the same, but one is significantly worse. 😅

[@randomguy-tg7ok]

Which one of the two is worse?

[@Redrally]

Also the National Carriers still have obligations towards you. I booked Lufthansa and British Airways when I travelled in Pandemic times (and risked WizzAir one time) simply because, if they have to cancel a flight, they have to properly inform you and help with re-arrangements (and refunds if applicable). There's obviously none of the luxuriant gloss of old, but the point is, these national carriers have service desks at every major airport where you can file a complaint if you have to. Budget Airlines often skip this expense, which is precisely why customers keep complaining of flights getting cancelled and delayed but no airport presence to assist. If you have "deal with" instead of look forward to flying, always go with the National Carrier who places their staff and reps at airports.

[@fjp3305]

@@randomguy-tg7ok Ryanair

[@SzymonPmc]

on what planet does lufthansa cost the same as ryanair!?

[@matthewmatthew638]

Judging by market cap and profitability, shitloads of people in Europe are choosing Ryanair, Easyjet, Wizz, Vueling over Lufthansa, Air France, BA and Iberia....doesn't seem to translate across the pond however.

[@TylerCoolGuy88]

I think one of the issues is when they first developed, they mainly focus on small to mid size markets where the bigger airlines ignore. But some (not all airlines) reduce or eliminate smaller markets to focus on more frequency and completing with the larger airlines out of larger airlines. So it end up them making less money since big airlines can lower price to complete and create overcapacity. I think had some airlines stay with growing smaller markets with no completion on certain routes instead of completing with larger airlines out of larger cities/hub, they would be making more money imo.

[@MrHav1k]

Oh look.... another greedy billionaire about to ruin the customer experience for their constituents.

[@chinesesparrows]

The Boeing issues arent helping

[@Hedgeflexlfz]

Spirit doesn’t fly Boeing

[@chinesesparrows]

@@Hedgeflexlfz Spirit isnt the only low cost airline

[@bengillies3700]

Jetblue, Spirit, and Frontier all operate fleets without Boeing aircraft. If anything the Boeing issues impact Legacy carriers more.

[@chinesesparrows]

​@bengillies3700 is southwest not a low cost carrier? Along with several others

[@solidoxygen7873]

Completely irrelevant and pointless comment

[@Ethiopianguru]

Zoom alone single-handedly dent the airline industry

[@CookieSwirlDoggo]

nahhh 💀

[@qwerty112311]

Dent? maybe. lasting critical damage? Absolutely not.

[@hououinkyouma1458]

Add google meet to that and its destroyed.

[@joesantamaria5874]

My wife and I fly Frontier to Florida for Spring Training every year. PHL to PBI (Palm Beach). We fly Frontier exclusively, as it is much less than half the price of Southwest, and frankly, I don’t want to deal with the seating rush on the latter. We each carry a personal item, never buy seats (they put us together anyway), and it is only a two and a half hour flight. By the time we drive from our home in Delaware and stay overnight in SC (I’m not driving sixteen hours in one day), it costs way less to fly than drive. I’ll deal with the minor inconveniences to save money.

[@elliottlupin]

Yeah, this is why I take Southwest when going back and forth between home and college, since my parents are in the Bay Area, and my school is in Socal. It's much cheaper and faster to fly for an hour than do the 8 hour drive every couple months. I also travel with little more than a backpack, and so I don't need to deal with checked bags, although Southwest is pretty good about them.

[@danielaurazan5988]

A point that would have been interesting to see here is that a lot of those "legacy" airlines copied the model from "low cost airlines" (like economy, basic economy etc.) so now the competition between them is more direct, and when the ticket price difference is not as much as it used to be between them.

[@khsimagesdotcom856]

Budget airlines issues are: 1. The fares aren’t cheap after all the added fees and/or flights seem unreliable as they tend to cancel when they don’t sell enough seats and blame weather. 2. Legacy carriers also offer cheap fare seats charging more for every little add-on.

[@danielfay8963]

Often the budget airlines aren't even the cheapest option for me with fees included, and the experience on them is generally meaningfully worse. Add to that the fact that resolving issues with missed flights and delays is an utter nightmare, and its just rarely worth the extra headache.

[@titleloanman]

The “budget” airlines cost the same amount for monumentally worse service. They just sneak fees on fees on fees until you’re paying the same amount, which is even more infuriating.

[@coldlakealta4043]

true, and not to mention that they seem to cancel flights much more often (and on shorter notice) than regular airlines.

[@meb5205]

The same as with any other former titan industry: The MBA'ers come in, cut costs, raise prices and leave a mess behind.

[@frevazz3364]

Forgot cut jobs, then move on to the next target…

[@fosterfuchs]

@@frevazz3364 While cleaning up financially as they leave the companies behind in shambles.

[@acbgames1766]

Because when you add up all the paid options you need, the price isn't so different from conventional airlines.

[@codybauer4343]

What paid options do you need though? I took frontier a few years ago to Nashville for just a weekend and only had a backpack and didn’t need any paid options I feel like there’s people taking 2 week vacations and having an oversized carry on and a checked bag who find out the burger is cheap because the fries and drink are expensive

[@wren7300]

@@codybauer4343 Literally this lol, if youre expecting exactly the same experience with one company as another, I dunno what you're doing

[@kjhuang]

When I add up the paid options for an ultra low cost carrier, it's still cheaper than a legacy carrier before I add up the options there. I flew American recently and they charged for every last thing just like Spirit does. The only things I could bring for free were a backpack and personal item.

[@McP1mpin]

​@@kjhuangYeah I don't get where these people are getting the same price. Every airline charges for checked bags now so if you need to check a bag then that's pretty much a wash. So where are all these fees that are making up the cost difference? We used to fly from the West Coast to Florida direct on Spirit with a checked bag for less than half the price of any other airline. With a family, that really adds up. Sometimes we would upgrade to the 'big comfy seats' and essentially fly pseudo first class while still paying less than economy on United or Delta. It was a no-brainer.

[@emericaman16]

It's all those videos of people putting their carry-on bags in those carry-on bag measuring things, the bag clearly fitting, and the airline employee telling them it doesn't.

[@jmueller1111]

They aren’t budget anymore, Southwest Airlines used to be my go too but now its expensive af like I wouldn’t notice

[@JohnSmith-rw2yn]

People laughed at the head of Ryan Air when he wanted to introduce standing areas on planes, but he said if he had something 20 seats at normal price and 20 standing for say £1 $1 it's a guarantee all the standing would sell out first.

[@kenon6968]

I live in a country that's roughly twice the size of France, crossing the country by air would take no more than an hour. If the flight were cheap enough I'd seriously consider it. I've done standing room only train rides for much longer, but I am cheap

[@spacebibba8984]

Flight Security wants to know your location lol Not gonna happen.

[@pefington]

​@@spacebibba8984Yeah, that was a stunt to get free exposure from media that would gobble it up.

[@JohnSmith-rw2yn]

@@spacebibba8984 Well you can't really go anywhere far on a plane? So your location is would just be the standing area?

[@spacebibba8984]

@@JohnSmith-rw2yn Tell that to flight security guidelines. I wanna see the avalance of people rolling through the plane, because some fatty couldn't withstand the forces at takeoff speed. Sounds very safe for all involved passengers.

[@MrSubsound90]

Being a customer the reason is fairly obvious. Budget airlines nickel and dime you constantly, and often legacy carriers include the same benefits at a lower overall cost. The customer service at budget carriers is also extremely bad. Budget carriers also skimp on very essential things, and I've had vacations ruined because the plane was grounded by the FAA. This started long before Covid too. My time and energy are worth more than the price differences...which at the end of the day might not even be cheaper...and definitely less than having to pay for a vacation I can't even take. Then there is only a few airlines people remember their experiences.

[@moisesflores3482]

Passengers won’t like it but as someone who’s worked in the industry, Southwest changes were inevitable for years already. You’ll probably see something along the lines of getting charged for bags if you get the cheapest ticket, some sort of premium seating for the first 3-4 rows that you’ll pay extra for. Wouldn’t be surprised if they fall in line with standard airlines within the decade.

[@formulafish1536]

What I’ve noticed in Australia is that the non-budget airlines are now offering semi-competitive budget options, whilst remaining cheaper once including checked luggage

[@davidhood6967]

Two things I want to point out. The first is that you just barely touched on flying into secondary airports but that is a bigger deal for the ULCCs than most people realize. Allegiant and SW are much deeper into reliever airports than frontier and spirit. The second, and more important point is that when you said that all airlines are paying the same for fuel, that is wrong. I know intuitively that sounds crazy, but Southwest not paying what everyone else was paying for fuel was a big reason why they were profitable for so long. You sometimes hear people make the argument that airlines are credit card companies with airplanes. One could also argue that airlines are actually oil hedge fund companies that also fly planes. Southwest made a ton of good investments with fuel futures and that is a major reason why they were profitable for so long. If you lock in a fuel price a year in advance of 2 bucks a gallon, and the market price is 3 bucks a gallon, it becomes a huge win for your profits.

[@mirzaahmed6589]

SW is not an ULCC.

[@lagautmd]

Southwest is stopping service to GWBush International in Houston, but will continue it's service to Houston Hobby airport which I think is one of the original hubs, along with Love Field in Dallas. One reason Southwest made a quick mark back in the day was flying in and out of old airports with cheaper gate fees. SW is such an icon for many folks that to see it destroyed by a predatory investment company sounds un-American... except, nowadays, it is quintessentially American business practice.

[@jameskeys971]

@@lagautmd predatory is exactly the correct word! What capitalism has morphed into is disgusting.

[@666mengel]

Due to recent world wide computer system crash our usual carrier United, canceled the flight at the last moment. We were forced to scramble to find anything to fly to our destination. The only flights available were on Frontier. To make a long story short, this was the most horrible airline we ever flew, and we flew all over the world!! They hit us with huge fees for a luggage. The customer service both check in and gate agents were caveman rude, seats were designed for 2 years old, and top of that they hit with 5 bucks for a can of soda. Ridiculous!! This was absolutely the last time we ever flew Frontier. Good luck in chapter eleven!! We are happy to pay more but to use a more respectable airlines such as american or united.

[@kevinmoffatt]

Like myself, you will only give company one opportunity to give poor service; I have a mental list of a number of brand leaders that will never get a second chance and I'm sure that they're treating their other customers the same way. They deserve to, and probably will, fail.

[@vkdrk]

I'm in Europe, and I gave up on budget airlines during Covid. They are only worth it for a day/weekend trip abroad because you don't need any extras, but once you add something to your ticket, the price is very similar to regular airlines. Not to mention their non existing customer service. You can still get some really good deals, but for the most part, the price difference isn't as big as it used to be. The same thing happened to Airbnb. It used to be cheaper than hotels, but nowadays, you pay almost the same price with all that hassle that comes with Airbnb

[@Flyingcreeper89]

I work for one of said ULCCs and the changes that they have implemented for crew and flights have the operation in shambles almost every day. Morale is at an all time low, and we are making less money at a time when costs continue to rise. I am constantly working 12-14 hour days and only being paid for 6-8 of those hours. I know I chose this job but only a few months ago before the changes it was the best job in the world. I just don’t know how much longer I can keep going, and with other airlines not hiring either, I am afraid I will have to give up on a job I have so much passion for.

[@Aplex21]

​@@girlgreenivythe issue is that air crews arent paid in between flights. If there's a 3 hour layover they aren't paid for those 3 hours. They're on duty but they aren't really working. They only get paid for the time they're operating a flight.

[@AM-wz8qr]

​​@@Aplex21 I wonder if this is why people flying aren't allowed to deplane and must stay on a plane on the tarmac for hours? Just heard a relative tell about being told they needed to stay seated for 1.5 hours without moving before the plane took off.

[@AdvancedGroomers28]

Cape air pays duty time. Problem solved.

[@essel23fly]

You are on "duty" but aren't really working. You are walking around terminals, do you want to get paid 50 bucks an hour to walk? We all start working when the door closes. These work rules come from unions, not the company. The better companies have trip and duty rigs which take this into account, but you are definitely not working unless the engines are turning. Another way is to get paid salary like some crew get paid but hourly is better because we can control better how much we make.

[@essel23fly]

@@AM-wz8qr no definitely not.

[@xKarenWalkerx]

I've been flying Frontier since pandemic first started till now and never been delayed or had/seen any problems. Fly about 20-30 times each year. They're also the cheapest tickets I've ever bought.

[@Mhtravels3]

Something that was missed - spirit bag prices have roughly doubled in the last 3 years. You can now regularly expect to pay more for a bag than the entire ticket costs either one way or round trip. This is being done in a bid to show the lowest possible price on Google flights

[@jesselewis93]

Probably because people would rather have a better seat and not pay for baggage. At this point the budget airline tickets cost the same as regular airlines for a worse seat (if you have a bag anyways)

[@aznmarinex2]

only budget US airlines. Airlines like Zip Air which do low cost from SFO to Japan are thriving. I think low cost airlines should try and adapt for high traffic international travel. Some people don't need the amenities offered on a long haul flight since they sleep through most of it. Its also like a pay for what you need. You may need only one checked bag going to Japan but will pay for 2 coming back because you buy stuff.

[@elliottlupin]

Yeah, it's like how you can get to Paris from SFO using either Air France or French Bee. Air France is a much nicer experience and I personally am willing to pay extra for the included meal and luggage, but if you aren't staying for 2 or 3 months at a time and don't really need more than a carry on, French Bee is a better deal.

[@bearcubdaycare]

Legacy airlines now offer the same unbundled ticket prices, called Basic Economy, as the discount airlines, and the difference in price has nearly vanished as a result. So, the legacies get a lot of that business. And of course they offer other ticket levels as well. The legacies traditionally get most of their profit from business class, which most budget airlines don't offer, or only offer on some flights.

[@Moonstone-Redux]

I went pricing out tickets between Singapore and Tokyo and found that on an economy price point, ANA is still about the same price as Zipair, with way more generous check in luggage allowance. There is still a reason I might try Zipair in the future though: their higher tier gives a business class level seat while still being priced way less than a legacy business class seat.

[@LeolaGlamour]

I'd rather buy a budget fare than ever buy a basic fare. But I'd never fly frontier or allegiant.

[@kjhuang]

I flew Basic Economy on American recently and it was still more expensive than a typical Spirit flight with all the options added on.

[@darrennipper5601]

Here's something not a lot of people realize. This is coming from someone who works in one of these budget airlines. Spirit and JetBlue sank a lot of money into the new a320 NEO aircrafts with the Pratt and Whitney engines. But because Pratt and Whitney no longer follow their motto of "Dependable Engines", many of the planes they're still making payments on are sitting in the middle of the desert waiting for P&W to fix them. Spirit specifically has near 60ish NEOs just sitting collecting dust because their engines are unairworthy. P&W are paying out compensation for the dead engines, but it's only enough to cover lot rent in the airplane graveyards. Spirit is still making payments on those planes. Sure, people are sick of extra fees, but that's only a piece of the puzzle. The massive blow currently is the fact that Pratt and Whitney are dragging their feet in fixing their engines.

[@gordoncheswick4169]

It’s very simple. They were making a lot of money, but their shareholders demanded - MORE, So, they had to add features that cost every passenger. It has gotten so bad that even a blanket costs you a fee. Change fees, late fees, seat fees, everything! You must check in for a boarding pass two hours in advance - or you are charged a LARGE fee. To a point where - unless they just charge more money even to just fly cost goes up for every passenger. The staff is rude. The airport staff are rude. So ride a carrier that at the least, is happy to have you!

[@alotorre91]

**Southwest stopped operating out of Houston Bush Intercontinental, they still own almost all the traffic out of Houston Hobby

[@amprosk]

Same thing at Chicago. They stopped O’Hare flights but still major player at midway

[@amprosk]

*reduced OHare flights.

[@nathantheneourbanist3887]

Southwest will still operate a "hub" out of Houston's HOU airport but discontinuing service from Houston's IAH airport. Many SW flights will still go through Houston

[@amprosk]

Same thing in Chicago with OHare vs Midway

[@amprosk]

Although ohare is a reduction not a complete ending

[@dradoode]

As many have pointed out the real problems is that legacy carriers are sometimes cheaper than these budget airlines. If you have that legacy’s card, for example, the trip is even cheaper since the card often comes with benefits that you’d otherwise pay.

[@mchase4]

It’s simple. No one believes their advertised price and is sick of being nickel and dimed. People would rather pay more knowing everything is included.

[@ssemergencyworld7362]

Sounds like a US problem. I fly EasyJet and Wizz in the UK. My flight recently to Zurich cost £20 (less than a train ticket to central London. A 40 min trip for me on a train). My flight from Milan to Amsterdam was £25. My cheapest flight was £17 (£42 round trip) from London to Milan in 2023

[@flyingstump2938]

Spirit Airlines employee here - main reason is the low fare structure doesn't work when you sell 6+ months in advance and then fuel prices go up 20-40%. Everyone used to flying them just do the personal item for weekend trips. Plus ULCCs got roughly 1% or less of that bailout money and barely survived in the first place. It is unfortunate; cheers. Also, beautiful shot at 1:30 - is that FLL? I love Silver Airways and Alaska.

[@janschiebel4153]

Do you think there is any way they can avoid bancrupcy?

[@fosterfuchs]

Can you suggest to your HQ to please start flying ATL-CLT? AA & DL has a duopoly in that market. Southwest refuses to compete. They discontinued that route the day they rebranded AirTran in CLT. Fares are more than $400 one-way between this city-pair, which is ridiculous for a 240-mile segment. This market is busy. AA & DL fly an average of one flight per hour between them, in each direction. With narrowbody mainline aircraft, not regional jets. If Spirit starts flying this route, even just a couple of flights a day in each direction, the other two airlines will have to respond with their fares.

[@TheBrowncoat2112]

If Frontier is switching models, it hasn’t gone into effect yet. We flew Frontier barely a month ago and it was a nightmare. We were charged for EVERYTHING, the staff was unhelpful and unsympathetic when we were stuck in San Juan in an unplanned because the ramp crew couldn’t get our bags off the plane in time to clear customs and make the connecting flight, etc etc. we will never fly a low cost carrier again. Ever.