Why Can't Religious Morality Be Rational?

www.aynrand.org
Dr. Yaron Brook and Dr. Onkar Ghate of the Ayn Rand Institute discuss the incompatibility of faith and reason.
See more at www.aynrand.org/reg_ls_index

[@puppetsock]

Even the ones he listed didn't support his claim. Newton's work did not depend on religion.

[@ArrogantEgoist]

Great analysis by Dr. Ghate.

[@doctorx0079]

Excellent answers

[@DW-oq8rf]

Both of these guys are impressive.

[@doctorx0079]

I have to stifle a snicker when someone says C S Lewis is a major philosopher. He was a minor commentator. Major philosophers include Aristotle, Plato and Kant.

[@jessewallace12able]

CS Lewis was a con artist

[@vonGleichenT]

hmm reason ultimately wins the debate

[@mcdonalds411]

As much as I disliked calculus, I can't deny it is useful

[@TheIrrefutable]

@jmck53: Congratulations on your ingenious one-two punch. Rejecting someone's arguments based on both her ethnicity and her sexual practices in quick succession wins you the argument, sir. There is no possible way to win against your well-thought-out and reasoned view. You are the greatest rhetorician ever. Either that, or it's impossible to win an argument with someone who exists in a perpetual intellectual seizure. :/

[@boldstandard]

I'm glad Dr. Ghate used the Abraham/Isaac story as an example. His interpretation is a good summary of Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling, except Kierkegaard was trying to argue for faith--but reading that book was my first step towards atheism, when I was in high school. Happily, I choose reason!

[@irisgonzalez-caulder9352]

5 - 19 - 23 GOD THE SPIRIT CREATOR of the 3 heavens and earth CREATOR of the universe yeah yeah theirs folks, university individuals said they ha ha ha existed before the Creator of the universe and Jesus Christ. The Creator of Jesus Christ is God and God IS Jesus Christ the Creator of the universe and each and every galaxy, each and every planet each and every animal and the ocean, and each and every saltwater animal and coral reefs and seashells and every and each plant life and critter in the ocean, and every and each freshwater fish and plant life and each and every critter in freshwater and each and every bird and each and every insect and each and every flower and each and every plant and each and every medicinal plant and each and every tree and each and every medicinal tree and each and every fruit and each and every vegetable and each and every desert and each and every forest and each and every rainforest and each and every mountain and each and every alpine and each and every raindrop and each and every snowflake and each and every earthquake and each and every tornado and each and every hurricane and each and every flood and each and every tsunami and each and every landslide GOD can't request sinful Isaac yet He could give His INNOCENT SON So-called, David Marsilia the wit ? a Dr Ghate gee such a witty name compares Isaac to Jesus Christ

[@rbilkie]

Mikem1234--The scholastics separated philosophy from theology. Thanks to Aquinas's reintroduction of Aristotle, reason could be used for this earth, for material reality, but faith had to be used for the transcendent realm. The result is that faith was driven out of the sciences, but not the humanities. Thus Newton believed in God, but kept him out of his rational world of science. People have tried to drive it out of the humanities. Rand did just that, successfully. She demonstrated that...

[@hyobel]

Thats Kantian empiricism, which I was also saying. It is exactly my argument: "What if it is true that the prophets (as they claim themselves to be) really had experience of a God?" As a philosopher, you should not discount the experiences of others as you have not experienced them. (e.g., the love I felt from my mother cannot be profoundly felt by an orphan). They have the empirical knowledge, which cannot be conveyed with mere words. The Bible, although its authenticity...

[@hyobel]

But I do not want to get into the details as there are more things I think you are missing. I now rest my case. I wish you the best with your undertakings.

[@guilhermesilveira5254]

Moral is secular.

[@hyobel]

Sorry for my grammar. Re-phrase: "I would have a far better life if I were an atheist than if I were unemployed."

[@TheAmazingMorse]

How does the Right co-mingle Ayn Rand and Fundamental Christianity so well? I subject this question to you all with the suggestion that the answer is that neither side thinks that much about it. Both are simplistic answers to the complicated question of what it means to be human.

[@swmorgan515]

They don't. Ayn Rand is not influencing anyone in the GOP or the conservative movement. Sometimes they pay uninformed lip-service to her, but that's about it. The left loves to inflate the influence of Ayn Rand on the GOP ( I wish they were more correct).

[@sebmaio4]

TheAmazingMorse......Maybe for you being human is "complicated" but for some of us atheists, being human is delightfully simple when the miasma and irrationality of religions is out of the equation.

[@Radeo]

Dr. Brook never said they were. He was giving an example of a "religious" person's achievement. He did so in response to the allegation that if religion was truly anit-life, those men could not have contributed what they did. He is clarifying that though Newton and Lewis were of mixed premises, whatever good they did contribute came through their exercise of reason, and not their faith in God.

[@henrka]

The gospel of Jesus christ is foolishness to those that are perishing (like yourself) but it's the power of god unto salvation for those that believe. I just quoted you from 1 Corinthians, chapter 1. So I agree with you to the unbeliever, christians look crazy to believe the nonsense of the resurrection. All you can do is to ask God to remove your unbelief and open your eyes to the truth.

[@henrka]

Christianity is based on historical facts. God created the world, Adam disobeyed God and as a result death entered the world, the flood at the time of Noah literally existed, Jesus Christ was born of the virgin Mary, crucified for our sins, and rose again for the salvation of man. The other big difference with other religions is that Christianity is all about God, not about man. Even salvation is a free gift from God.

[@hyobel]

I could still argue with your propositions but I see that you have now set your foot steadily with them, but I think you do not get what I am trying to say. Just like any other arguments I have had in KZbin, arguments become lofty and superfluous that they fall away from the points of arguments. Kant, as a philosopher, used reason itself to expose its inabilities or inadequacy. I wouldn't put him as an enemy of reason (being a PHILOSOPHER)....

[@MrChirpsky]

Philosophy, to be useful, must be a sort of bridge between science and religion separating these unique disciplines while keeping the people in harmony (allowing for one to be on either/or side of the bridge without becoming "the enemy").

[@henrka]

Also although God loves us, he also has to be a just God. He has to punish sin. Sin is the transgression of the law, and the wages of sin is death says the bible.

[@hyobel]

cannot be completely verified, has the right for a benefit of a doubt. It should not be slighted as mere sight or mere writings. "Emotions are based on what one's thought in the past." Not exactly. You see, with music and arts, I can be full of emotions, without thinking of anything (well, speaking as an empiricist, you might not have experienced it.)

[@Radeo]

Ah, okay. My bad. ^^

[@henrka]

Isaac Newton used reason when he studied nature as this video says. That said he was clear that he saw a creator, that all the mathematical laws are universal equilibrium had to be the the product of a superior being, that is God, who created the Universe.

[@Shozb0t]

"You are not exempt of God's law." Isn't God that dude who lives at the top of a black tower and looks like a giant fiery eyeball? I'm not afraid of Him. He can't possibly see everywhere at once. Therefore, I will "sin" as much as I want and concern myself with my own personal morality. If God happens to see me do something He doesn't like and sends His black riders out to get me, then I'll change my name and move to another state.

[@henrka]

Just replied, to your last post. See above my comment.

[@henrka]

Unbelief and lack of faith are sins that deserve hell. Faith does not require evidence. You are right very few people will be in heaven. Jesus said to enter through the narrow gate for broad is the gate that leads to destruction.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

All faith is there are multiple different branches of faith, but faith in its peers form is to put trust and confidence in something, that can be blind trust and confidence, but that’s not all faith is, to deny faith is to deny reason you can’t deny faith without using faith.

[@henrka]

@@pleaseenteraname1103 The bible defines faith in Hebrews 11:1 as "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

@@henrka no you completely misunderstand what the verse is about, The verses specifically talking about putting your faith in the Lord, it’s not talking about anytime you put trust in anything, it’s specifically talking about trusting in the Lord, all faith is is putting trust and confidence in something, there’s blind trust and confidence and then there’s not, OK that’s not all faith is there’s multiple different branches of faith but that if you want a general definition is what it is. And again what is irrational about that, God the father in the Bible is described as the creator of the universe he is all knowing,He is all powerful he’s omnipotent and he is eternal, and you were created to serve him so what is wrong with, you blindly putting your trust in him without thinking, and again that’s not what it is. Specifically talking about and again it’s referenced multiple different times so basing everything off this verse really is not a good idea, yes if we don’t know something or we don’t understand something trust that God has a plan, again specifically talking about God here, it’s not talking about anytime you put trust in anything.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

@@henrka kzbin.info/www/bejne/h5e8q4SXacSEm68, there are much better videos, but they’re all incredibly long and very complicated this one is relatively easy to grasp.

[@2932AV8]

Please, uhm, stop, uhm, clearing your throat. Uhm. You're doing just fine!

[@henrka]

God loves us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. Christ died for sinners so that they can go to heaven. This is the love of God. No man would give his life for an unrighteous man ( a sinner ) but Jesus did just that. John 3:16 also shows the love of God by saying that "God so much love the world that he gave us his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but will have everlasting life. This is the love of God. Continues in my next post.

[@rbilkie]

You're defining by non-essentials. 1) "Meditation" is not "focused thought," and Yaron Brook was obviously not using it in that sense. What distinguishes "reasoning," a cognitive process, and "meditation," a supposed cognitive process, is that "meditation" relies on spiritual, non-sensory revelation. 2) Same principle: "Faith" is not synonymous with "trust" or "reliance." What distinguishes "faith" from "trust," is that "faith" is "reliance without any evidence"--hence the opposite of reason.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

Not true, There are multiple different branches of faith, but Faith in it’s purest form is just putting trust or confidence in something, yes there’s blind Faith which means blindly putting trust and confidence in something when you have no evidence, or rational reason to do so but that’s not the only way somebody can have faith, to deny faith is to deny reason do you have trust and confidence that trust and confidence doesn’t exist, I don’t understand why so many people don’t understand what faith is.

[@Matthias53787]

I'm a philosopher

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

Cool where do you get your PhD from, just interested.

[@Matthias53787]

@@pleaseenteraname1103 you're replying to my comment from 14 years ago?

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

@@Matthias53787 yeah I know, I believe your philosopher, just in case you interpret my comment as being condescending.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

@@Matthias53787 yeah I know that’s weird, you made that comment 14 years ago, and all the sudden out of nowhere some guy just replies to it, and I don’t want you to interpret my comment as being condescending or not believing you I believe that you are philosopher.

[@Matthias53787]

@@pleaseenteraname1103 thank you, I don't have a PhD though.

[@larsio72]

Ayn Rand was a hack, but it is true that Kant eliminated the effective relevance of religion. Ayn Rand on the other hand re-introduced arbitrary - fath based? - values into her analysis of society.

[@crusted_dank3082]

Have you read a sentence of her work, Lars?

[@larsio72]

@@crusted_dank3082 , are you trying to be cheeky?

[@crusted_dank3082]

@@larsio72 haha yes.

[@henrka]

Proof of this is Christ's resurrection. It proves that he is the only begotten son of god. It is a historical fact with many witnesses to prove it, as written in the bible. Not too mention the prophesies of the old testament that christ fulfilled.

[@shovelcharge]

...ya not all the major philosopher were Christians...Karl Marx, Hegel, Sartre, Aristotle, Plato...no?

[@henrka]

It's easy for me to see my own sinfulness, because I have repented of my sin. I have acknowledged it before God, that I fall short of God's glory and my only hope lies in Jesus Christ's perfect obedience and atonement for my sin. Unless you repent of your sin you will never see in your eyes your own sin. Pray God that he will grant you repentance and forgiveness of sin, without which you will go to hell.

[@Daemonocracy]

Rand was never able to rule out a supreme being and in fact never tried. She just couldn't work him into her philosophy so ignored him all together. To me, learning about the facts around you, is learning about Gods creation. Learning Calculus is learning the universal language of God, his formula for how his creation works. Simply stating that Newton had a secular moment while he was researching is laughable and a far from "reasonable" explanation as to how a Christian can use reason.

[@hyobel]

Hey, hey, hey. It's your problem. You act like you're on the side of reason but your arguments are self-contradictory. I did not even say I am a theist but you jump to that conclusion already! Remember the rule in philosophy: give a benefit of a doubt until it's proven.

[@henrka]

At the end of the day though, all that matters is that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, he was crucified by man, and was raised by God on the third day. He is alive today and sits at the right thone of the Father. And every man will die and will be judged by God. Those that rejected Christ will go to hell, and those that accepted Christ will have eternal life.

[@hyobel]

Reason is like the lawyers. It can twist just about anything. It can incriminate the innocent, acquit the criminal, lessen the grave sin of criminals, and underpin the slight mistake of laypeople. It is not THE only way to THE truth, but A way to A truth.

[@baldrbraa]

The argument «because God says so» is false, because reason is part of God’s nature, not something He invents. The point of the story of Abraham and Isaac is precisely to show that, and exactly because he stopped Abraham from killing his son.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

And he completely missed the part of the story, God was testing Abraham’s loyalty he never had any intention of Abraham actually killing his son he was testing him, and because God said so what’s unreasonable about that, God is the highest authority he is a creator, so if he says do this because I said so, you would be morally obligated to do it, but again that’s not exactly what it is the people in the Bible and not just mindless robots they have free will, and I don’t really wanna get into the whole Freewill thing, because a lot of Christian scholars and theologians have different views of how three will see me interpreted in the Bible.

[@hyobel]

My point is: Faith's domain is emotions, where Reason cannot dwell. Music and arts can be full of emotions but Reason cannot rationalise why they make people exalted. Furthermore, no matter how much I feel for somebody (e.g., God or my children), Reason cannot relay the emotions to you but Faith can.

[@Shozb0t]

"By your own admission you are full of lust and are a breaker of God's law." I didn't vote for God. Does that mean that I am exempt from his law?

[@henrka]

I'm going to heaven because Jesus Christ died for my sins and paid the penalty for sin that I could not pay. Anybody that believe that repents of his sin and believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died on the cross for his sins and was raised on third day has his sins forgiven. I have Jesus Christ as my advocate with the Father, and I will have eternal life because of it.

[@Daemonocracy]

God also granted us free will, we still have a choice to follow him or not. The essence of religion is Free will. again, Faith and Reason are not complete opposites. They can coexist.

[@hyobel]

Reason cannot make you feel: Reason saw a man crying. Reason coldly says, "He is crying because his parents died." Faith, on the other hand, cried. He felt what the man felt. Reason turned to Faith and said, "You are deluded, arent you? None of them are your relatives!" - because he does not understand what Faith or the man feels.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

Yeah as smart as he is he has no idea what he’s talking about, Faith is not just wishful thinking, I mean it can be that’s called blind faith but faith in its purest form it’s just funny trust or confidence in something, any time you put trust or confidence in absolutely anything or you don’t have trust or confidence you are putting faith into something, it’s impossible to deny faith to deny fate is to deny reason itself.

[@conoroneill164]

5. There is a spiritual reward for obeying our Creator

[@RohitKumar-pu2pb]

I am totally agree with you a religious man can't be rational as it is a emotional

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

Disagree.

[@henrka]

You are now committing blasphemy and denyng the existence of the Lord further violating God's commandment. If you don't repent of your sin you will perish.

[@timarmesto9602]

A couple thousand years ago, some guys wrote passages based on experiences they had and beliefs they intuited, and it turns out the longer people hold to these ideas they wrote down, the stronger their families are, and by extension the stronger their communities are. Thats good enough for me.

[@hyobel]

And I thought people of religion are the only ones who can become fundamentalists! People of Reason also have the same passion (like madmax8903) for their beliefs. Passions which are irrational!

[@designtoexpire]

This will not make sense to a theist, because the majority of them base their entire sense of identity and pride upon the exact act of rejecting rational judgment in favor of faith. It is like telling an altruist how selfless they are, many will use it as a means of reinforcing their self justifying notions. A victim requires a victimizer To a rational mind, the despicable nature of the concept is apparent, to them it is precisely the value that they seek to achieve.

[@Thindorama]

designtoexpire Yes. Ironically the Bible has a fitting phrase for them. “unto them that are defiled... even their mind and conscience is defiled.” Titus 1:15 It’s out of context but that’s the only value of it: out of context.

[@doctorx0079]

Bible quotes can mean anything you want if you take them out of context. One reason the story of Abraham and Isaac is good is because it is so frequently used by ministers and theologians. It's not like some obscure story about how the Israelites slew so-and-so, and we aren't supposed to do that because it was a one-time thing etc.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

No, again if you deny my views therefore you’re denying rationality no, and what do you mean by faith in the Christian to be your faith or do you just mean faith in general because it is incredibly foolish to deny faith and no faith is not merely believing something about evidence that is blind faith faith is whenever you put your trust and confidence in anything, there are multiple different versions of say there’s multiple different views and definitions, but faith and its peers form it’s just putting trust and confidence in something so it is impossible and foolish to deny it.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

@@doctorx0079 and he misunderstands the point of that story,My God was never going to sacrifice Abraham son he told him to do it to test his loyalty.

[@doctorx0079]

@@pleaseenteraname1103 A benevolent god wouldn't make you do that. What a jerk this god is.

[@henrka]

You are not exempt of God's law. The book of Romans teaches that the wages of sin is death. It also says that sin and death reigned from Adam to Moses, before the Law came in. Sin is a transgression of the Law, but it existed before the 10 commandments were given to Moses. God's law is written in every man's heart teaches the apostle Paul. And every man sins by breaking God's law, you are not exempt of God's Law.

[@conoroneill164]

I disagree. It is reasonable "to do as God says" 1. He is our Creator therefore has the authority and deserves our respect 2. He knows more 3. He knows best 4. He punishes disobedience in this life and the next

[@jessewallace12able]

CS Lewis was a con artist. He was not a philosopher.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

Christian morality is built on the notion that if God says something it makes it through well that’s not entirely true but yes God is all knowing he is all powerful he is the ultimate source of goodness and right so yes whatever he says wood in fact be true I don’t see why that’s a problem.

[@WarVideo]

And proof of this is...nothing.

[@hyobel]

I was withdrawing because a philosopher only has reason to use and nothing much else. They are all about logical thinking. I felt that a person, who defends reason while claiming Kant as an enemy of reason, must be out of his reason. I have never heard of such. Not even from well-known advocates of reason like Prof. (!) Dawkins and Hitchens. You sound very much like a fundamentalist, eager to slash somebody's throat if his beliefs are confronted. Eager to defend "by all means necessary."

[@Daemonocracy]

and since when is "applying your mind" as the second speaker says, some how separated from faith? has he not heard of the Protestant work ethic? I admire Ayn Rand's Objectivism but these speakers seem to parrot her original arguments instead of having a true understand of Rand. Rand was around during the Bolshevik uprising and saw the ravages of Comunism (atheist) on her birthland. She obviously could not see how God could exist and allow such treachery. She did not understand God.

[@magnusdanielsson2749]

These men dont know history. Newton was a mystic and much of his ideas came from that mystical/alchemist realm. His pursuit for gravity was highly influenced by mysticism. Descartes had a dreams where an angel told him to develop his ideas. The ideas that started the materialistical thinking, one of the foundation of modern scientific thinking if you will. The whole idea of an orderly universe is central to judaism and christianity. Without order no reason for science. Im not saying we need to keep religion or that its all good. But the blatant neglect and lack of respect that some atheist have for what religious practices and thinking have meant for the western world is astounding. Its at the very least ignorant and intellectual laciness or even dishonest. Especially after one listen to Jordan Petersons psykological interpretations of what the text in the bible actually might imply.

[@vidyanandbapat8032]

Magnus Danielsson All development of science and technology in Europe had happened either at the time of classical Greece, when there was dominence of philosophy over religion or in the age of enlightenment which was the commencement of downfall of religion, after the protestant reformation. The period when religion was dominant is called as dark ages since in that time there were no development in science due to religious hegemony.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

He associates faith with Christianity and religion whatever that means which is wrong. Again what he misunderstands is in the Bible God is the ultimate authority,So it’s not giving up a reason to him, because he is reason. Faith and reason are not mutually exclusive they’re not opposites are you talking about the Christian view of faith, or are you just denying faith altogether because if so do you have faith that faith does not exist. No I agree with you on some of the points about Isaac newton, but Isaac newton absolutely was inspired by the God of Bible, spent more time studying theology than he did on science. I hate hate hate how they are using the term faith faith is faith this faith that, what do you mean by faith define your terms, I like you Yaron Brook, but come on denying faith is foolish well you’re denying it because you don’t know what it means, you associate faith with Christianity and blindly believing something which is just false.

[@henrka]

We are all sinners and deserve hell. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God writes the apostle Paul in Romans. Christ paid the penalty for sin, he atoned for the sin of all of mankind. If a man fails to repent of his sin and turn to Christ accepting the free gift of salvation, he deserves the right penalty for sin which is eternal death in hell.