Why Christianity Framed Herod as a Baby Killer (feat. Dr Jodi Magness)

[@mrharry448]

When I was a child this story turned me off Christianity instantly. The idea that 'God' should warn Mary/Joseph but not the parents of all the other children was so utterly disgusting that it/God immediately became a monster and still is to me

[@violeth2255]

Ah but you see, Jesus is the protagonist of God's plan. He has to get special plot armor. It's the same reason he isn't stoned to death for proclaiming himself divine in the gospel assigned John's name.

[@mrharry448]

​​​​​​@@violeth2255Not to mention that he literally got a much less painful death than the other two on the crosses and yet Christianity insists it has meaning only if it is the greatest human suffering in history. THE STORY SAYS HE HAD IT EASIER THAN THE OTHER TWO.

[@ziploc2000]

In order for the Christ-stains to have their special needs met, normal people have to suffer. It's been going on for 2023 years too long, and I'm looking forward to when we stop giving these people special treatment just because they have an imaginary friend (or three).

[@davidofoakland2363]

Never thought of that before...thanks!

[@BDnevernind]

​@@mrharry448He had it easier than any crucified victim ever. Died by evening? What a godsend.

[@billcook4768]

Herod slaughters babies (Matthew): Bad God slaughters babies (Exodus): Good The Bible is weird sometimes.

[@zemorph42]

But God is Love; Whatever he does is perfect, because he's perfect, somehow. Sarcasm.

[@庫倫亞利克]

And because God designs Herod (and Satan) and writes the entirety of their script, all babies *they* kill are a direct responsibility of His.

[@Mkeusquealbby]

Don't forget all the babies who died in the flood and during the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah

[@PeteOtton]

@@Mkeusquealbby And during the conquest of Canaan.

[@54blewis]

I was made by Sister Helen Carmel to stand at the back of the class and face the black board because I couldn’t understand why God saved his kid but left the other kids to die,I was 8yrs old at that time at Our Mother of Sorrows School (the name alone is an issue) and it’s still a bone of contention with me and the church now that I’m 68…

[@riluna3695]

As well it should be. I mock the public education where I live for failing to teach anything of value, but actively punishing children for wanting to learn is more than just ineptitude, it's cruelty and very literal indoctrination. I can't count the number of stories I've seen like yours where people were chastized or even kicked out of these sorts of classrooms because they _wanted to better understand God._ Imagine if a kid asked why division was the opposite of multiplication and the teacher sent them out into the hall to think about what they'd done. Now imagine this was the commonplace and accepted response to any questions of why math was the way it was. That's what we allow religion to do on a daily basis. It's an offense to the very idea of Learning. And all that is before we consider the fact that they're teaching things that have been _proven_ factually inaccurate.

[@dannylo5875]

He had the key of Solomon. The other kids did not.

[@grapeshot]

If you look at King Herod he actually was able to expand the Jewish territory to one of his fullest extent. And the Christian hate him for an event that most historians say never took place.

[@Julian0101]

Kind of, christianity has a long history of scapegoating whoever they can just to propel their narrative, Herod was known as a very cruel king, so it is no surprise christianity used his name to make shit up about how jebus was being persecuted (according to the prophecy) since before he was born. Also, matthew needed some excuse to justify jesus moving to Nazareth so he made up that thing about herod. Just like luke needed also an excuse, and he made up a census that doesnt make sense around a time there is no evidence any census at all happened. TLDR, christian hate probably had nothing to do about herod's fable, they just needed some excuse to fix the flaws in their narrative.

[@JudasMaccabeus1]

Jews hate Herod more. Almost as much as Antiochus Epiphanes

[@KaiHenningsen]

@@Julian0101 Yeah, but Pontius Pilate was also known for cruelty, and he's the good guy in the same(!) story.

[@grapeshot]

@@JudasMaccabeus1 they hated him because they did not consider him truly Jewish because Herod's ethnic group had been forcibly converted to Judaism.

[@JudasMaccabeus1]

@@grapeshot I’m aware. I think most people and figures in history are exactly like most people today: nuanced. None of us can really know Herods character or disposition, whether he was “good” or “bad” depends upon the vantage point and the view point from which he is observed. An Idumaean and a Judean would write two entirely different accounts.

[@kjmav10135]

So ironic that, since leaving the church, I’m finding so much intellectual richness in the Bible and other ancient literature. Ancient middle eastern history is absolutely fascinating.

[@GameTimeWhy]

I always enjoy hearing from the actual expert the apologists misquote.

[@owenoulton9312]

Yeah, like the time Paul interviewed Dr. Mary Schweitzer!

[@PC-vg8vn]

she wasnt misquoted - she put it in writing.

[@GameTimeWhy]

@@PC-vg8vn just a different interpretation of an infallible document.

[@PC-vg8vn]

@@GameTimeWhy you explicitly said they 'misquoted' her. That is different from a 'different interpretation'.

[@GameTimeWhy]

@@PC-vg8vn they do misquote. I was making a joke about the infallibility of words being written down.

[@MythVisionPodcast]

Phenomenal interview Paul! See you at the conference and hopefully as one of your cartoons soon 😉

[@raya.p.l5919]

❤❤Jesus power here is proof. 😮 Warning it is intense

[@jamiehudson3661]

What a goal in life to have - wow.

[@edluckenbill9382]

Enjoy your work myth vision guy .

[@maxuno8524]

Foreshadowing your WLC response. I see you, Derrick

[@GameTimeWhy]

That "tangent" about mausoleums and the olympic games was amazing.

[@CarlosRodriguez-dh7mm]

It's so cool to listen to experts talk excitedly about their field. I understood 18% of what was said, but it was great

[@Seapatico]

I'm definitely at that point in life where there's nothing more entertaining to me than listening to someone extremely knowledgeable and passionate talk about their thing.

[@Soapy-chan]

you understood 18% more than creationists and proponents of Jesus' existence and divinity do.

[@littlebitofhope1489]

Well, another 70% is just "we don't know" so you aren't missing as much as you think.

[@sgt.duke.mc_50]

Whew! Agreed! That lady could condense an hours worth of information into 15 mins or less

[@merbst]

Next time you will understand 19%! I've been an obsessive full time fan of KZbin Atheism content for almost a decade now, so I am up to understanding about 80%! Keep up the good (undervalued by society) work! Debunking theist absurdism is truly a Holy Calling!

[@MrDalisclock]

To me, the fact the other Gospel authors don't mention the massacre of the innocents is more then enough to cause legit doubt in my mind. Even Luke's conflicting birth narrative doesn't find it interesting enough to mention.

[@pansepot1490]

It’s a retelling of the killing of the first born of Egypt in Exodus. Matthew wants to cast Jesus as a mosaic figure, in fact, he makes the hint even clearer by having Joseph taking his family to Egypt and back. Zero chances it actually happened. It is a literary device that Matthew uses throughout his gospel: telling the Jesus story by using motifs, references and quotes from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Bible that was popular at the time). Apparently it was common for ancient authors to tell new stories by using imagery and tropes their audience was already familiar with.

[@MrDalisclock]

@@pansepot1490 agreed. It makes sense as a literary device. Not to much as history.

[@ancientfiction5244]

​@pansepot1490 In below article, it shows how "Matthew" used the Septuagint to try and get Jesus to comport to old testament prophecy and botches it. *"How Did The Gospel Writers Know? - The Doston Jones Blog"*

[@TorianTammas]

​@@ancientfiction5244Thabks for sharing the great article.

[@theCommentDevil]

Well said. That's how I feel about the Lazarus story too. Jesus' most famous miracle somehow is only mentioned in one gospel.

[@samsohn]

What an incredible guest. Her depth of knowledge is incredible. Gonna look into her stuff. Thanks Paul.

[@ArawnNox]

35:55 I'd also say that Herod trying to kill the messiah in Mathew is also a parallel to the story of Pharaoh trying to kill Moses.

[@harveywabbit9541]

Pharaoh is the winter sun. Moses was "gathered unto his people" (Num. 31.2), i.e., leaving the Sun, "he went and returned, and dwelt" with the Sun - he completed the circle of the zodiac, or year. Having thus looked upon the Promised Land (summer), Moses died, and buried himself in a valley in the land of Moab (water-father = Aquarius = Moses), "but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day" (Deut. 34.6). Although one hundred and twenty years old, (12 months) "his eyes," it is said, " were not dim (his stars shine as brightly now as they did then), nor his natural force abated (the rainy season still comes on every year) " However, the people wept thirty days, i.e., during the passage of the Sun through Aquarius, the Wash-pot (Ps 60.8), or the rainy month of January.

[@katew.9402]

Exactly! And the author of Matthew has Jesus and his family flee to Egypt, so that Jesus could come out of Egypt, just like Moses. 'Matthew' is very intent on drawing all these parallels.

[@haroldwood1394]

This was an excellent discussion. The idea of Herod's presentation of himself as Messiah, or at least in the messianic line, was completely new to me. Thank you!

[@harveywabbit9541]

Philip's wife's name was Herodias (heroine of the path, or zodiac = Virgo), the lady who longed for John the Baptist's head. She was the daughter of Herod (hero of the path, or zodiac = the Sun) the tetrarch (governor of four). She was also the daughter of Hercules (hero of the skin - the Sun). He is placed north of the equator on the solstitial colure, with a lion's skin thrown over his back. He is tetrarch, because, as the Sun, he is Lord of the four seasons. Directly below him, on the opposite side of the colure, is Philip (Sagittarius), the son-in-law, with bow in line with the triple-headed dog of Hell in the hand of the father-in-law. Looking westward on Map 4 (Elijah Burritt's), we see Herodias, Philip's wife, precisely on the equinoctial colure. She is looking at her father as if asking for John-the-Baptist's head - a cup of cool water, which of a sultry and dry in August, is quite refreshing. The time was near the end of the dry season. Soon, however, the fall rains began and her longings were appeased.

[@dmere123ify]

Now I’m even more excited about the upcoming New Testament scholar conference. This woman is an awesome educator.

[@JimCampbell777]

This was 100 times more interesting than I thought it would be. Thank you, Dr. Magness, for bringing aspects of 'King' Herod to life.

[@DrKippDavis]

This is a fantastic interview. It makes me very excited to get back to Palestine/Israel next year.

[@iluvtacos1231]

I love hearing experts go off on their topic of interest and provide amazing context for stuff that weren't only passingly familiar with. Greaf video!

[@Meh......0]

This was an amazing interview!

[@Paulogia]

I'm glad you enjoyed. I did too.

[@jimmygravitt1048]

Wait. So, that heel bone with the nail through it is LITERALLY the ONLY piece of that skeleton we have? Why is it that some people believe that a crucifixion victim was buried in a tomb, as opposed to simply a piece of some famous crucified victim that was taken as a souvenir and buried with someone else? Am I missing something?

[@TorianTammas]

It is even worse as the skeleton had only the nail through one foot and no nails through the hands at all. In 1985, Joe Zias, curator of the Israel Department of Antiquities and Museums, and Eliezer Sekeles, from the Hadassah Medical Center, reexamined the crucifixion remains. They alleged that Haas' analysis was fraught with errors: The nail was shorter than Haas had reported and thus would not have been long enough to pierce two heel bones and the wood. Pieces of bone had been misidentified. There was no bone from a second heel; the nail-pierced only one heel. Some of the bone fragments were from another individual. Zias and Sekeles also stated the presence of the scratch in one of the forearms "was not convincing" evidence of a nail wound: Many non-traumatic scratches and indentations similar to these are found on ancient skeletal material. In fact, two similar non-traumatic indentations were observed on the right fibula, neither is connected with the crucifixion...Thus, the lack of traumatic injury to the forearm and metacarpals of the hand seems to suggest that the arms of the condemned were tied rather than nailed to the cross. In conclusion, the findings of Zias and Sekeles do not indicate whether in this case a horizontal patibulum cross-beam was attached to the upright stake to which the victim's heel was nailed. The evidence was so ambiguous concerning the arms that Zias and Sekeles had to rely on the data provided by contemporary writings to support their reconstruction of the position of the arms as attached to a crossbar: The literary sources for the Roman period contain numerous descriptions of crucifixion but few exact details as to how the condemned were affixed to the cross. Unfortunately, the direct physical evidence here is also limited to one right heel calcaneum (heel bone) pierced by an 11.5 cm iron nail with traces of wood at both ends.

[@BigDaddyMan83]

Fascinating. I, too, was wondering how they came to so many conclusions over one heel bone. Can it even be said with certainty this was a crucifixion victim and not some fella whose leg was nailed to a board for God knows what reason? ​@@TorianTammas

[@curiousnerdkitteh]

Oom this one looks exciting can't wait to watch! I love your channel! So informative and engaging! Awesome to hear from the experts!

[@dancinswords]

Genuine enthusiasm is infectious

[@jimmygravitt1048]

That is so fascinating about the burial societies. I read a little about the origins of health insurance and I read one quote, allegedly from Theophrastus, about Greek mutual benefit societies, but I never came across these Roman burial societies. That is fascinating.

[@--Ezra--]

Thank u Paul for having Dr Jodi Magnes. That was very enjoyable, very short sadly, i could listen to her for hours.

[@tomboughan2718]

I thought the Slaughter of Innocents were trying to parallel Jesus with Moses.

[@lewkor1529]

Can people who are getting crucified (in pain, slowly "dawning" and out of breath) hold a significant (or any) conversation? That's very unlikely. I'd be curious to see another case where that has happened in the hundreds of thousands of Roman crucifixions throughout history, some of which are pretty well documented. Also, who would be in a position (=within earshot) to accurately record such a conversation even if it took place? According to the story, "Golgotha" was an elevated spot therefore away from the people in the crowd who could see the persons being executed (to serve as an example) but most likely would NOT hear much of anything, let alone a full conversation among convicts

[@marcusreading3783]

Probably by looking on the bright side of life. A good outlook and stiff upper lip can go a long way to help with such minor inconveniences after all. Worse things happen at sea you know!

[@harveywabbit9541]

The Savior is crucified twice. As Christ (summer sun) he is crucified In Egypt (autumn equinox) and as Jesus (winter sun) he is crucified in Calvary (spring equinox). The summer sun is Christ and the winter sun is Jesus.

[@grahvis]

Why not? After all, we have a record of conservations between Jesus and Satan when there was no one else there to hear them.

[@harveywabbit9541]

@@grahvis Jesus was Satan aka Beelzebub.

[@PaulDormody]

@@grahvis These "conversations" are added to make sure the audience comes to the intended conclusions. If you read the story of Job without its preamble with God and Satan talking, you might take away a different view of it.

[@MarkAhlquist]

She's like, finally someone wants me to talk about this!

[@MynameisnotRelevant007]

When l really think about what stories are read in church ⛪️ and how the horror stories are glossed over argued away is very scary !

[@Paremata]

I wanted to mention that I had herd another youtube video that the other men being crucified were not thieves but rebels. Hebrew used the word robbers which actually meant rebels. This makes a lot more sense to me since I'm pretty sure if Jesus existed he was a rebel. If he wasn't a rebel then why did they send so many soldiers to arrest him and why did Peter have a sword. I'm not a scholar but I read this in Lena Einhorn's book "A Shift in Time." I thought she made some good arguments.

[@Herschel1738]

Supposedly, crucifixion was reserved for enemies of the Roman state, not mundane criminals. Often it was slow painful, shameful & public. It was supposed to be a lesson to warn off those who might rebel against Roman rule. Think of the work to make the crosses. Trees had to be felled, trimmed & hammered together into a cross shape (actually, many were shaped into a "T", not a full cross). Then a hole had to be dug in the ground to plant the cross, and it would have to be sturdy enough to hold the body upright for several days. If you ever tried to dig a hole for a fencepost, you get an idea of how much work it is to get it right. A lot of work to kill a petty thief who would be put to better use being slaughtered in the Coliseum.

[@julietfischer5056]

@@Herschel1738- The Coliseum didn't exist, then. A petty thief would have been imprisoned and probably enslaved.

[@GlorifiedTruth]

Herod is a tough character to make heads or tails of from the Bible alone. Loved this guest and the presentation!

[@harveywabbit9541]

Philip's wife's name was Herodias (heroine of the path, or zodiac = Virgo), the lady who longed for John the Baptist's head. She was the daughter of Herod (hero of the path, or zodiac = the Sun) the tetrarch (governor of four). She was also the daughter of Hercules (hero of the skin - the Sun). He is placed north of the equator on the solstitial colure, with a lion's skin thrown over his back. He is tetrarch, because, as the Sun, he is Lord of the four seasons. Directly below him, on the opposite side of the colure, is Philip (Sagittarius), the son-in-law, with bow in line with the triple-headed dog of Hell in the hand of the father-in-law. Looking westward on Map 4 (Elijah Burritt's), we see Herodias, Philip's wife, precisely on the equinoctial colure. She is looking at her father as if asking for John-the-Baptist's head - a cup of cool water, which of a sultry and dry in August, is quite refreshing. The time was near the end of the dry season. Soon, however, the fall rains began and her longings were appeased.

[@davidofoakland2363]

I'll have to give a re-viewing since i was puttering around doing small chores while listening in the background. But what I did focus in on seem pretty darn interesting. Thanks for the quality material!

[@DC_Prox]

It's getting to the point where someone is going to be able to write an entire book of examples of experts explaining how the apologists misused or misrepresented their work to support theological ideas. Borde-Guth-Vilenkin, Mary Schweitzer, and now Dr Magness.

[@patjenkins3032]

OMG, get her on more often! This is great!

[@dethspud]

That was fascinating. Lots of new info for me to mull over here.

[@findsharon]

Fascinating and straightforward. Have her on again.

[@ScottDCS]

Love these chats. So much historical relevancy derived from fictional stories.

[@oscargordon]

Dr. Magness was awesome and I would love to hear more from her. The only thing I don’t understand is why she waffled on the Massacre of the Innocents. Why would Herod slaughter all of the children under two in a town? Because some Persians came to him saying that a talking star had said that the next king of the Jews was just born and the star weeded to know where that was? Herod consults his consulars “In Bethlehem” so he tells the Persians to come back with a report because Herod expects his oldest son to be the next king. Now that the star knows which town, it takes the Magi directly to Joe and Mary’s house (the manger and census thing was from Luke's version). When they don’t return Herod has everyone under two killed indicating that he was visited by the Persians at least a couple of years before he died. That means Jesus was born 6 or 5 BCE, not 4 BCE. Unless you can come up for a more plausible reason why Herod would kill a bunch of babies, I’m not buying it. Matthew is just making up his origin story based off of Moses where as Luke based his off of Samson.

[@thaddeusgenhelm8979]

I mean, while she did not give a definitive answer, deferring to the idea that "scholars disagree on the subject", the fact that she boils down the story to "A group of Jewish people's reactions to Herod's claim or posture as messiah himself" suggests that she, at least, is of the opinion that it's anti-Herod propaganda, basically, but doesn't feel like she has the hard evidence to definitively say. Since she's largely talking about her academic work, what's actually been discovered, etc. in this, I imagine she defaulted to an academic way of answering the question, which is to say "Since I don't have hard evidence, I can't say definitively, but here's what the evidence suggests to me." Less of a waffle, and more of standard academic hedging, not saying you *know* things if you don't have the material to back up what you're saying you know.

[@oscargordon]

@@thaddeusgenhelm8979 There is one and only one reference in all of history to the Massacre, Matthew’s. How does that tune go? “Well scholars disagree”. Of course they do. The vast majority of scholars who study this are devout Christians who have signed statements of faith. I must admit that up until ten years ago I didn’t realize that the Herod (the Great) of Massacre of the Innocents fame WASN’T the same person as his son Herod (Antipas) of Dance of the Seven Veils / John the Baptist fame and trial of Jesus fame. I assume Herod was great because he renovated and expanded the Second Temple which was apparently shabby little affair built under the Achaemenid Persian Cyrus the Great after he freed Jews from the Neo-Babylonians. I knew that Cyrus was considered the Messiah for a while because of his deeds, but finally was decided against since, well he was Persian and not from the House of David. I just learned from our good Doctor here that HtG was also considered the Messiah by some because of his work on the Temple and explains the Herodians references that she talked about.

[@thaddeusgenhelm8979]

@@oscargordon To be clear, I feel the hedge was not because she was seriously entertaining the idea that it actually happened, but more that arguing the point wasn't viewed as being worthwhile to her. If nothing else, if you consider how she analyzes his actions, his character the idea he would perform such an absurdly bad PR move, as it were, is similarly absurd. It is, certainly, internally inconsistent with the picture she has of him. But, of course, I'm not actually psychic, I can't know her exact intentions in that sense, it's just the impression I get of it.

[@oscargordon]

@@thaddeusgenhelm8979 And there in lies my problem. Someone who actually KNOWS better isn't challenging her fellow "academics". There is only one and only one account of HtG ordering the massacre of a town full of babies because of a story about a talking star. She should be calling BS on it to her Christian peers and making them defend their position.

[@thaddeusgenhelm8979]

@@oscargordon Yeah, I can understand why that frustrates you. Makes sense that you'd want someone with expertise in the field to demand more substantiation from their colleagues when something seems more to be accepted/allowed to "maybe" have happened due to private beliefs than the evidence.

[@laurajarrell6187]

Paulogia, well Dr. Jodi M kind of changed a lot of common thought, sounds like she's just going with evidence and tradition that best matches what she can find in the field. As she said, she's questioning, not 'affirming' ! Thankyou Paul, good stuff. 👍💖💙🥰✌

[@danielshultz8008]

Its amazing thr amount of research Paul is conducting in theae past few years ... I woupd imagine a few years from now he could become a household name in archeological and historical circles..... When are you gonna publish a book about it?❤ Funny fact i grew up in Gilo ...you could the the mountain (herodium) pretty close to where i lived

[@mikewilliams6025]

This podcast was a big plus for traditionalists. Nice of you to have a genuine scholar on, instead of a polemicist.

[@480pilot]

Thanks for this. Outstanding

[@seanmcdonald5365]

What Dr. Jodi said about the Matthew baby killing story possibly being a reaction to paint him as anti-messiah, I feel may be spot on as the magi stopping at Herod made no sense since the star lead the magi straight to where Jesus was, seems like they tried to fit in a bit too much there.

[@nightshade7240]

They almost seem to want to paint him as an "antichrist" figure and while horrible people did horrible things in history, I think we have to be careful when a source that has a demonstrated bias paints people in any light. I mean look at how the Pharisees are painted by Jesus, as being these horrible people and yet when you read into the role of the Pharisees, especially how integral they were to the Talmud and the Masoretic text, you get a very different perspective. Though as the Talmud and the Masoretic text both refute the idea that Jesus is the Messiah, it is important to paint the enemies of xtianity in a particular light, often as justification for the horrible things that befall them. Just as "thou shalt not kill" during the crusades was replaced with the idea that to kill an infidel was a path to heaven, which also refutes Jesus own words. So long story short, how a source depicts the enemies of that source, is something that should also be factored into considerations. Also Herod is a king, with all the resources at his disposal. As if he couldn't send men to follow the Magi or to force them to return after they found the Messiah. If Herod is what the bible claims he is, then he absolutely would have sent men to shadow the Magi and murder the baby Jesus when the Magi found him.

[@TorianTammas]

This is a fan fiction story where we create a superhero with all the right ingredients. Mathew makes out of him a new Moses (which was a Sargon copy) with the killing of the children, and the fleeing to Egypt so he could return like Moses. The star gazers (aka magi as in Persian priests watching the stars to see the plans of the gods) are there to announce an omen and to bring the proper gifts for a king. So they have a double function they announce that the star constellation hints at the birth of a special person and they bring this person the gifts proper for a king. This fan fiction story is so overdone it is like putting sugar on top of sugar on a sugar cake.

[@katew.9402]

What a great interview! Thanks!

[@dougniergarth236]

This was VERY informative. Thanks Paul

[@brunozeigerts6379]

This has been pointed out on other sites(this one too, maybe?) That the slaughter of the innocents was basically copied from the story of Moses. With no proof that anything of the sort actually happened.

[@kamilgregor]

I love Paulogia asking about the two criminals. I wonder who he got that from ;)

[@gullyfoyle3253]

Terrific guest and topic, thank~you!

[@MykeFahrenheit]

I've seen a lot of Paulogia videos but this one blew my mind. King Herod the Messiah, wow. Thank you Dr Jodi Magness for giving us this insight

[@peterwyetzner5276]

The imperial biographer Suetonius, in his life of Augustus, mentions a few of his wittier remarks; one of these is that he wrote to someone in a letter that he would rather be Herod's pig than his son. This is clever because aside from the idea that as a Jew he would not kill a pig but as Herod he would in fact kill his son, the Greek word for "pig" was συς, and for "son" υς.

[@DJTheTrainmanWalker]

Relatively recently it occured to me that the 'empty tomb' might well be a post 70 c.e. meme related to Titus crucifying the defenders of Jerusalem. (500 a day according to Josephus who was almost uniquely for an ancient historian witness to the events he described) And given the conclusion of Dr Ehrman that the crucified were rarely burried. And that the poiniancy of the original ending of Mark harks to this. Meaning Mark would be post 70 rather than the earlier dates sometimes attributed. It seems pretty straightforward following the Roman crucifixions and refusal to release the bodies that many families might well have bemoned 'empty tombs'. Listening to Dr Magness I noted she referenced Jews having the custom of taking down the dead crucified before sundown... So I had a read of Josephus. The reference seems to be book 4 chapter 5 of 'the Jewish War... Where it seems that Josephus is pointing out the hypocracy of the Idumean and Zealous Jews treatmet of the dead. Which suggests to me that this passage tells us what the custom was regarding Jews crucified by Jews. Though it does seem to me to also suggest appeals to the Romans for the bodies of victims of crucifiction may well have been routinely rejected. Josephus tells us in antiquities That Alexander Jannaeus, the Maccabean king (103-76 B.C.E.) used Crucifixion, Given the endemic use of crucifixion in the ancient world that.... even later than Alex Jews were still crucifying folks. Which raises the question ... Did Roman occupiers ban others from using crucifixion?

[@cpthooray5032]

I've thoroughly enjoyed this episode. Listening to your guests talk avidly about the subject (and not going on about it!) is fascinating. Also not listening to josh's guest is a bonus.

[@jrivera345]

I tell Christians all the time the Herod story of the babies being slaughtered in order to get to a Messiah was not historical. They go “History just omitted it! But it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen!” Sure, bro. Sure.

[@PlugInRides]

Actually, the burial depicted in The Gospels, doesn't really conform to Roman practices for crucified criminals. It would be unusual for The Romans to allow a crucified man to be given a proper burial, as the ignominy of being tossed in a mass grave was considered part of the punishment. If Pontius Pilot really had wanted to have demonstrated the power of Rome, and the non-divinity of Jesus, tossing him in a mass grave would also have deprived his followers of a proper grave or tomb where they could have worshiped their martyr.

[@the-chillian]

I wonder if the architecture of Herodium can tell us anything about Herod's work on the Jerusalem Temple? I don't think it came up in the video, but aside from the work on the buildings themselves he also extended the Temple Mount by lengthening the retaining wall and bringing in a massive amount of backfill, packed solid enough to support the monumental structures above. I'm not sure how the scale compares to the tumulus at Herodium, but it's something Herod seems to have loved to do.

[@joericciardi1773]

Dr Jodi Magness is a joy to watch

[@Aury]

This is really interesting to learn about, thank you for always giving such interesting bits of historical exploration!

[@waynegaffney8995]

Barrel groups is a new insight I haven't heard before. Thanks to both of you!

[@TheLookingOne]

How likely is it that christian greek story writers spun their stories based on the time when Herod's 2 children (who were jewish through their mom) put on jewish priestly robes and the crowd weeped with joy because, in time, the kids would become jewish rulers and therefore Herod killed his 2 sons because they were a threat to his rule

[@bengreen171]

fascinating. It seems that the more we find out about 1st century Judea, the less plausible Christianity becomes.

[@allgotterer]

I really appreciate Dr. Magness' cautious approach to the archaeo-historical facts.

[@gumbykevbo]

Josephus had a major hard-on for Herod. If Herod had conducted an infanticide , Josephus would have not only mentioned it, he would have elaborated....yet of all of the misdeeds of Herod reported by Josephus, there is no mention of any infanticide.

[@captainobvious2435]

Bethlehem was such a small town that no one would've noticed, yet Matthew is the only one who noticed? No other Jew to where Josephus would've heard about it growing up? And Josephus died about 100AD. Did he not read or hear about the Matthew gospel Hebrew or Greek version and throw that description of Herod's act in with the rest?

[@TorianTammas]

It looks like some gospels used material from Josephus. As Josephus wrote in the 90s this means fan fiction stories who used his material had to be writgen later.

[@bf99ls]

Josephus was highly critical in “Antiquities of the Jews”. His first book was written to ingratiate himself with Rome, and Herod had been a major ally of the Empire under Augustus.

[@TorianTammas]

@@bf99ls You never read Josephus? Is that correct? If you had you would have noticed how critical of Herod he was. Do you understabd the difference between Augustus and the Flavians? They were different dynasties and no one cared what Josephus wrote after the jewish war about these rebels against Rome.

[@bf99ls]

@@TorianTammas I was responding to the comment that he’d had a massive ‘hard-on’ for Herod. He was largely uncritical of Herod in his earlier work. I made a a bit of an intuitive leap in ascribing a reason for that. I will bow to your superior knowledge.

[@Marniwheeler]

Great Video. Top Tier content. Thank you Paulogia.

[@thesuccessfulone]

Paul and I had the same thought. "People pay to bury others"

[@arnoldjohnson3317]

I must have misheard Bart, I thought he said almost the opposite about what happened to crucified people. They rotted on the cross is what I thought. This was very confusing. I forgot to say, I did enjoy the presentation, learned a ton.

[@carpediem5232]

That's not what he said. At least not as a general statement. It is similar to public executions in the early modern times, where sometimes the body was displayed (left on the cross), because of a particularly egregious crime or to be a warning to others, but often they were just thrown into a ditch. What exactly is confusing in the video? She says the same.

[@arnoldjohnson3317]

The confusion is she makes it out to be common that she makes sound common and no big deal and I got from him it wasn’t.

[@littlebitofhope1489]

No, it's just the way academics talk. She was speculating, and she said she was. You have to look out for those little caveats. They can go by fast. You notice she also said many were left to rot by taking about the dogs and the body parts. Nothing she said was in contradiction to what he said. She just thinks about it a bit differently. You have to pay attention to when they say they aren't sure. THEY mean it when they say that unlike christians who are 100% sure about everything.

[@arnoldjohnson3317]

@@littlebitofhope1489 you are 100% on that. It’s not easy keeping up.

[@dftknight]

She thinks in Judea they were buried. She does disagree with Bart Ehrman on this.

[@brunozeigerts6379]

I did see a video that suggested that Nero wasn't as bad as history painted him to be. Persecutions of Christians wasn't as bad under his reign as history suggested, he didn't start the fire or even really blame Christians for it. Rome burned... because it tended to do that from time to time. Also that Nero rebuilt it in an efficient, artistic design.

[@brunozeigerts6379]

I viewed two videos both 'Was Nero as evil as they say?' Both agree that many of the stories about him were .. stories. Stories written by historians critical of him and difficult to verify.

[@TheHookahSmokingCaterpillar]

The three main writers covering Nero's reign (Tacitus, Suetonius and Cassius Dio) are all writing after Nero died. When he died there was a period of instability in the empire (The Year of Four Emperors) and a new dynasty, the Flavians, came to power (Galba becoming emperor after Nero's suicide). There was thus an easy correlation to make between Nero being a bit mad and the instability that followed. The three writers had a vested interest in portraying Nero in the most salacious way as the last of the Julio-Claudians and blaming him for the instability that followed. Does that mean what they say about Nero is untrue or exaggerated, no - but it does mean one has to be cautious when reading what they wrote as scandal at the top was as interesting then as it is now.

[@pansepot1490]

Same applies to Herod. Got a bad rep because of the totally fabricated gospel story of the massacre of the innocent. The Jews didn’t like him much because he was only half Jew, but as kings go, he left a huge legacy behind. He is known for his colossal building projects throughout Judea. Among these works are the rebuilding of the Second Temple in Jerusalem.

[@brunozeigerts6379]

@@TheHookahSmokingCaterpillar Yes, that's more or less what these videos have said. Also that Nero was popular with the masses, but not so much as with the elites. And the elites were generally the ones who wrote the histories.

[@TheHookahSmokingCaterpillar]

@@pansepot1490 I heard somewhere once that even if the Massacre of the Innocents did take place, given the size of Bethlehem at the time it would have been about ten kids that were killed.

[@CUtz143]

YAS NEW VIDEO!

[@njhoepner]

As I understand it, tombs cut into rock were a 1%-er kind of thing...highly expensive so only very wealthy families could afford to build one at all. The ossuaries (bone boxes) used in them were also very expensive. The idea that someone would allow a non-family member to be placed in their family's mausoleum seems unlikely at best. Most people were simply buried in the ground, by far the most likely outcome for Jesus as well.

[@captainobvious2435]

Maybe putting Jesus in that tomb was only meant to be temporary. Later they could've planned to put Jesus in an ossuary, which would've left the tomb available for Joseph of Arimethea later.

[@njhoepner]

@@captainobvious2435 Putting the bones in an ossuary of course can only be done a year later...and then that ossuary has to go somewhere. The normal practice was the ossuary was placed in a space cut into the side of the tomb, next to those of other family members. So if they accepted Jesus' body into the family tomb, they would be holding a space for it forever. Possible? I suppose so. Likely? No. In order of likelihood, I'd say it would be: 1. Most likely: the Romans leave the body up at least several days, then toss it out. 2. The local authorities take the body down, and put it in a common grave. 3. His family takes responsibility for the body, and bury it in the ground (which was the normal practice in Galilee, where he was from). 4. His disciples take the body down and bury it - they're all Galileans, and none of them has the means for a tomb burial. 5. Least likely: a rich person offers a space in the family crypt for him. We don't have the evidence to go further than this, I think. Perhaps one day a tomb belonging to Joseph of Arimathea will turn up, or some other set of evidence. Until then, all we can do is look at practices as we know them and speculate.

[@TorianTammas]

​@@captainobvious2435Part of the cruxification punishment is to be denied burial. So there is no body as it is lwft there and leftovers ebd somewhere

[@crankyeldergod709]

As far as I can tell -- admittedly I haven't studied much -- Herod was a competent administrator in his reign over Judea. The massacre of the innocents is very questionable, and other "excesses" committed by Herod don't seem out of place given the custom of other rulers of that period.

[@dftknight]

Even Herod's contemporaries said he was unusually brutal and cruel and he put his own sons to death. Saturnalia jokes that Herod was kinder to pigs (since Jews didn't eat pork) than his own family.

[@DARKEMERALDFLAME]

So, I'm curious. Paulogia is not a scholar, but what exactly is it that separates a scholar from someone who studies these things intensely, like Paulogia?

[@irenafarm]

Basically making one’s research available to review from experts and/or peer review. Because peer review is such an exacting process, one usually does this with the support of an educational institution. TLDR: the main difference is seeking and obtaining graduate degrees in research, in the field in question.

[@dugganclhallrentals2089]

A doctoral degree in that field of study from an accredited university. But Paulogia is still friken awesome !

[@DARKEMERALDFLAME]

Everyone should be a scholar... if not on paper - then in their lives!!!@@dugganclhallrentals2089

[@danmiller6462]

Some of the videos presented the massacre of the innocents by Herod as a spin from Exodus where Pharaoh ordered the slaughter of Hebrew baby boys. Zeitgeist is one such film.

[@ashelred]

It should be noted that Robert Graves in his novel “Claudius the God” and it’s TV version “I Claudius” has Herod Agrippa as the member of the Herodian dynasty claiming to be the messiah.

[@helenr4300]

Herod as messiah, sounds a closer model for Trump messiahism than the Jesus model.!! I thought that ' Matthew' was making up the massacre as part of echoing the Moses story 'the boy who livedv and creating a flight to Egypt so there could be a return from a la exodus. Challenging Herodian claims adds another layer to ponder

[@Zift_Ylrhavic_Resfear]

Thanks for the video :)

[@germanvisitor2]

Doesn't that also imply the believe that he was divine survived Herod's death if there were "Herodians" in Jerusalem to conspire against Jesus? And that those Herodians were still around when the Gospels were written down?

[@myoneblackfriend3151]

Something we learn here is that Herod built that temple. I would submit Jesus did not rebuild a physical temple like the Messiah was supposed to do. That complicates things for Christians.

[@brentwalker8596]

So awesome to hear these archaeological and historical connections. Yet more evidence how so much of history and religion represents a narrative created for an agenda rather than truth.

[@johntiggleman4686]

Also, in Aslan's book (if I remember correctly) he says there was no mention of the child murders in Josephus. There was a guy on another KZbin video about this that the number of children killed was very small, and Josephus would not have heard about it, unless it happened in a larger city, than Bethlehem.

[@DocZom]

Paul, this was a hugely informative presentation. Herod the Great was the Messiah! Who knew? It really does make sense. Thank you for this.

[@bf99ls]

‘The Messiah’ is a purely Christian concept, implying a divine saviour, dying for the sins of mankind. Although in post Biblical Hebrew eschatology there were some mentions of a messiah son of David (or from the royal Davidic line) and a messiah son of Jacob, these were understood as freeing ‘Israel’ from Hellenic rule. Jews who thought Jesus was such a messiah, claiming symbolic royal descent, saw him as freeing them from Roman oppression. 2000 years of Christian theology and belief has somewhat skewed the reality and basis of what a messiah was: somebody or something anointed with holy oil for a specific task (king, priest, altar, ewer, etc).

[@gregmark1688]

For a year or two now, Dr Ehrman seems to be on a serious drive to make money by monetizing his scholarship on YT, and it's really starting to annoy me.

[@Gamet150]

The running theme with the guest continues with have their known about the creationist guest

[@alanhilder1883]

The old " they mentioned a real person/place so all the rest must be true ". I have be lead to believe that New York is a real place, there for there are mutant ninja turtles running around eating pizza and fighting crime.

[@davidhoffman6980]

I would like to know if the Romans crucified thieves? I always heard they reserved crucifixion for sedition, treason, and insurrection.

[@ArawnNox]

As I understand it, "thief" in the context of the original word used in the gospels is more akin to "bandit" and banditry was a crime against the Roman state.

[@mattm8870]

@@ArawnNox yep the word is λῃστής which Strong's Concordance says it robber or bandit who steal via violence the word for a sneaky thief is κλέπτης. At lest that what Matthew and Mark say the other two Gospels dont mention what the crime was.

[@TorianTammas]

Romans crucified rebels against Roman. rule and rebellious slaves. So Jesus and the people who got crucified where rebels.

[@davidbridenstine6358]

Final question; she didn't answer. McDowell asked if Kennedy had found anything that undermined or contradicted the accounts of the life of Jesus. She responded that she didn't find anything that affirmed the accounts. Different questions altogether.

[@darthgorthaur258]

Maybe the 18 column is the number 18 because thats amount that fits a circular building...it could be that simple.

[@mitchellminer9597]

Fascinating. Herod becomes interesting. Good job of editing.

[@sbushido5547]

One of the things I can't stand about people who approach stuff like this (both history and science) from a purely apologetic standpoint is how they strip away everything interesting about it in favor of "gawd dun did it!" Like...I can't imagine ever learning that Herod might have considered himself in the messianic line of David from a preacher or Sunday School teacher...

[@MrRussiancoma]

Too funny! Good intro! She's a good sport!

[@kl7985]

Has there been a reply to any of Paulogia's content?

[@harveywabbit9541]

Moses was "gathered unto his people" (Num. 31.2), i.e., leaving the Sun, "he went and returned, and dwelt" with the Sun - he completed the circle of the zodiac, or year. Having thus looked upon the Promised Land (summer), Moses died, and buried himself in a valley in the land of Moab (water-father = Aquarius = Moses), "but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day" (Deut. 34.6). Although one hundred and twenty years old, (12 months) "his eyes," it is said, " were not dim (his stars shine as brightly now as they did then), nor his natural force abated (the rainy season still comes on every year) " However, the people wept thirty days, i.e., during the passage of the Sun through Aquarius, the Wash-pot (Ps 60.8), or the rainy month of January.

[@johnsheehan5109]

Whereas I hate to disagree with the good Doctor, but the Roman custom vis-a-vis crucifixion (a punishment that was reserved for sedition, not treason) the bodies were left on the cross to be defiled by scavengers as a warning to others. I know that Jewish law required immediate burial, but if you look to the Roman history of Pontius Pilate, he was highly unlikely to have given a shite of the wishes the Jews whom he despised. Finally, the bodies of the crucified were commonly throw in mass graves again as a warning.

[@pavloskaphetes8476]

What a cool presentation.

[@DemiImp]

If Herod was calling himself King and Jewish people were upset by that, could it be that Jewish people were looking for someone else to call King and "elected" Jesus to be that person?

[@81caspen]

I’m wrapping up the video, and I wonder now if reaction against Herod’s surmised claim of Davidic messianism didn’t form a pretty solid social and political bedrock for adoption of Jesus as the messiah. Apologists love to flog the idea that the apostles and any larger local following of Jesus should have been astoundingly unlikely because of alleged claims of divinity, and therefore the growth of Christianity that transpired must be tremendously significant and point to a supernatural foundation. Yet, maybe the population was already fairly primed to accept some messianic figure in their own time provided it grounded adherents in pushing back against Herod and his adherents.

[@julietfischer5056]

The tendency of ancient nobles to give their children the same name makes it difficult to determine who is whom if the written sources are iffy.

[@mdug7224]

This is refreshing!

[@janusatthegate6201]

Why are all these ancients so against burning bodies? If you have a great way to burn it fairly quickly, burning seems cleaner than piling yucky body parts and bodies--esp. if diseased.

[@irenafarm]

*waves from North Carolina* 🙋🏽‍♀️

[@idio-syncrasy]

Very clear. Thank you

[@jamesmskipper]

"Woodmen of the World" provided life insurance and I think the large, beautiful tombstones were included.

[@johntiggleman4686]

According to the book "Zealot: The Life and Times Of Jesus Of Nazareth" by Reza Aslan, the other two who were crucified by Jesus were seditionists, not thieves. Luke changed the word "sicarii' to "evil doers" or thieves. Of course, there were more than just those three being crucified. It was a common form of punishment for treason/sedition.

[@BethDiane]

I'm sure someone has pointed out that the Slaughter of the Innocents is a clear rip-off of the story of the birth of Moses.

[@TorianTammas]

Which is a rip off of the stiry of Sargon of Akkad.