Why “Circle of Fifths” is Garbage (Guitarists - learn it this way instead)

“Circle of Fifths” instruction, whether it's in videos or books, is ineffective and not very well thought out - especially for Guitarists. Metal Guitar Academy's Brett Miller finally explains the Circle of Fifths in a practical way, so that you can actually use it for your Guitar playing and writing.
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[@YouTw1tFace]

I think you're doing a disservice to players who aren't familiar with the "wheel" aka circle of fifths/fourths. There's at least a dozen or more theory tricks you can apply to "the wheel." Before I really understood it I did not care for it. Now that I see it's value it's one for the first things I teach beginning students. It helps to connect the dots and to show how pattern based music really is.

[@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA]

Thanks for watching, Chris, and for your comment. I’m glad that you find some value in the circle, but we’ll (“wheel!”) have to agree to disagree. “Tricks” and “hacks” are a huge part of what’s wrong with Guitar instruction; they have some practical value, but ultimately become nothing more than a frustration to the student.

[@YouTw1tFace]

@@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA Trick probably wasn't the right word. For example, you mention how with your "row" way, you could modulate from C to G because there is only one note difference. True. I teach the same thing using Co5: Any note to the left or right of Root you're on is a good place to modulate. etc. etc. Perhaps I just like the way the Co5 is visually represented. Keep the lessons coming!

[@janedubourg4837]

I use circle of fifths every time I pick up my trumpet.

[@spooky_binch6103]

Brian Kelly shows the circle of fifths at the start of each video, he circles the 6 chords of the key, this is step 1 to understanding the circle in my opinion, and makes the circle and incredibly useful resource with out having to truely understand it

[@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA]

Don’t know who that is, but sounds kinda Lovecraftian / Necronomicon-like! (using the power, without really understanding it…) But anyway - quick, what are the 6 (+1) chords from the F# major scale? No looking!

[@ElrondHubbard_1]

Funny. While just now listening to this video where you use words like "gibbering", I was thinking you must have been reading Lovecraft and maybe some Conan books recently at the time you made it.

[@ElrondHubbard_1]

​@@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA F# M G# m A# m B M C# M D# m E# dim

[@StephenCameron]

You can get the chords of a key off the guitar fretboard. Find the tonic on the low E, form a major barre chord (e.g. For A major, find the A chord with the root on the 5th fret low E). That's your I chord. Move up 2 frets and make it minor. That's your ii chord. Move up two frets for another minor, that's your iii chord. Move back to the 5th fret and make a major chord with the root on the A string. That's your IV chord. Move that shape up 2 frets, that's your V chord. Move that up 2 frets and make it minor, that's your vi chord. Memorize this arrangement of six chords on the fretboard. For minor keys, find the tonic on the A string and form a minor chord with the root on the A string. Now imagine that this is the vi chord of a major key, and imagine where all the other chords of that major key are. Those chords are the same chords as for the minor key, because the major and minor keys are relative, and share the same notes.

[@whatabouttheearth]

The 6th? Are you referring to the relative minor? Or just where the submediant is?

[@timesurfingalien]

The circle of 5ths just makes sense to my mathematical brain.

[@konductiveguitar4584]

The circle of 5th's diagram is like the periodic table of elements, it just exists to put all the information in one place. You don't "use" it, it just exists to show you all the keys in one organized image. I feel like people just overthink the diagram and assume its got some esoteric quality to it.

[@aaronclark7587]

Really??

[@whatabouttheearth]

You do use it to learn, and you learn alot more than the keys, there is a reason the circle of 4ths and 5ths is a primary resource for musicians for several hundreds of years now.

[@TheGreatBaronOBeefDip]

Another observation I had is: starting with C with no sharps or flats, subsequent scales in fifths, the next being G, the new note is a half step down from the tonic, so G has 1 sharp, it being F#. As you progress, include the previous sharps, but add the new sharp, always a half step down from tonic, so D major has the previous F#, as well as C#, half step from D. Being a metal player myself, I received 4 years of lessons and put the information through a metal lens. After, I developed a mechanical understanding of navigating the fingerboard opposed to a musical one akin to Steve Vai or Joe Satriani, players I don't particularly like.

[@SealedKiller]

This is literally the same way I was taught the circle of fifths except you just wrote it with all of the notes of each scale... This is how you should be using the circle as well, you don't memorize the whole thing, you memorize the notes going around the circle and then use that to figure out which notes are sharp or flat for a key. You really need to only remember F, C, G, D, A, E, B which is the right side of the circle. And the left side is the same thing except its flat and goes backwards, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb. And the process is the same for figuring out how many sharps, take D major, F#, C#, just like it's shown in the video. It's similar for flats, F has a Bb; Bb has Bb, Eb; Eb has Bb, Eb, Ab. Except in case of flats you don't skip a note like for sharps. If you were taught to memorize the circle fully, you were taught wrong!

[@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA]

Thanks for watching, and for the comment. The first sentence of your comment is the whole point. The way something is conceptualized, and whether it’s congruent with other things in a student’s experience, matters. Especially for beginning players.

[@SealedKiller]

@@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA Yeah you're completely right. Most musical concepts aren't actually that hard to understand if it's properly explained.

[@facundosimonetti5203]

the ways the scale of fifths (heavily popularized organized as the circle) helps understanding music are so many that it's hard to quickly mention. i shall try anyway: alterations (#'s and b's on key, even doubles), modulations between keys, chord progressions, even modes. just to say that the 5th interval is the most pleasing to the ear (besides an octave) begins to explain it. either you learn it as a scale, circle, or both. but studying it thoroughly connects everything else you can learn about making music. anyway at least thats my take on it. good vid you got my like and comment to help the channel:)

[@anulonilatac]

Memorize f c g d a e b and it is the order of the circle. And the number of sharps/flats increases as we move clock or anticlockwise. It is a simple way to see things if you know how.

[@gonootropics2.065]

Circle of fifths is invaluable if you understand it. The way I use it is as a general guideline of what chords I can use together. On the outer ring I can pick a key and use the chords to the left and right of that key. On the inner ring I can find the relative minor key for solos etc

[@mattt180]

The arrogance of the statement at 2:15 had me rolling my eyes. I'm sure this guy is talented, but putting down hypothetical people using conventional teaching tools to prop yourself up is cheap. Theory is descriptive not prescriptive. Not wanting to learn theory because it may hinder your creativity is like not wanting to learn the names of the colors because you're afraid it's going to make your paintings worse.

[@vincentc.4722]

Sorry, I rarely post cricital and negative views and I can see and appreciate the effort, but this is one of the most lacking explanations ever. "Rebrand" the circle of fifths as "cycle" of fifths? Both terms are already in use. In French "cycle" is already the word used historically and in theory books so nothing new there. Why diss the circle diagram? it's "complicated"? Is a clock face complicated??? Because it's about the same level of complexity. It's like telling a child that reading time on a clock face is too complicated and not worth learning. The circle diagram gives a global view and is very easy to understand when explained clearly. And it's totally arbitrary to explain modulation through sharps and not modulation through flats. You even at one point define the cycle of fifths as scales from C to C# while completely leaving out the F, Bb, Eb, and Ab scales (Yes the flats get a little mention later. Is it guitarist bias? But these scales are just as worthy as the others, despite depriving you of a varying number of open strings). C# which is included in the explanation, is actually more commonly notated as Dd because it's more convenient to write and read (less alterations). It's also much smarter to remember the order of appearance (names) of sharps and flats than just focusing on their number because remembering the order helps you easily remember the number as well (if you mentally spell "F C G D", how hard is it to recognize that this makes 4 notes?), and the order is the series of 5ths for sharps and 4ths for flats so that will come in handy to learn other useful things later. (And a fifth up is the same as a fourth down and vice versa, hence it is correct to call it a cycle of fifths in either direction, as it would also be correct to call it a cycle of fourths). There is also very little in the video about which scales sound close to one another and which ones sound distant and why (it's determined by the number of notes they have in common and the circle diagram makes it totally clear, as most distant scales are at opposite positions just like 12 and 6 on a clock face), and there is no mention of the shortcut that makes it easy and natural sounding to go from a given scale to the most distant one. This notion of closeness and distance between scales and the use of modulation is one of the main foundations of western musical language since the invention of equal temperament and, along with the viability of a system of scales that use tempered intervals and make transposition viable, has inspired works like Bach's well tempered clavier, no less. In short, it's well worth learning FULLY from the start to progress more rapidly in the mental side of musicianship, just like it is well worth learning to read a clock since we all have to organize our time. So again... sorry, sorry but no. This kind of partial explanation makes beginners happy because they learn a little but then they think they "got it" and will be less inclined to really learn the full picture, which is so enormously inspiring and useful when explained clearly.

[@bartoszbilon]

I was a little sceptical at the beginning but wow you are truly great teacher Sir 👍 Great knowledge here, thank you 🙏

[@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA]

My pleasure, happy to share

[@Adks007]

Cant avoid circle of 5ths. Its good to know cycle of 5ths as well. Thanks for the explanation ❤

[@marcusm9454]

No need to bash the circle of 5th. It is a tool, just like any tool leave it in the tool box if not needed but beginners seem to get a lot out of it. This system, isn't new but is very much more than what is covered here and more for non-beginners. This system is really handy when you incorporate modes, minor/major, tonic centers, roman numerals etc. Each has it's usages. At the 20 minute mark you finally mentioned the scale of flats and fourths--which are integral in the keys of music, completing this picture. I would hesitate to even show this to a beginner, this is only aprox 1/2 the keys and can be confusing. I use this system as a crutch, but I have one page with the sharps and one with the flats. This system covers so much more than the circle of 5th, but the circle of 5th has it place with beginners and those who want the simplicity.

[@recreationalmcnukes3966]

the circle of fifths is so garbage, all it does is show you which keys are closer/farther from your home key, thus allowing you to figure out how to make your key changes smoother/more jarring depending on what you feel works best, so garbage!

[@michaellandreth1392]

In your chart there. You had the Nashville Number System. If you put numbers above those letters. And you almost touched on it. Basically 1,4,5 are Majors. 2,3,6 are Minors and not usually mentioned the 7 is Diminished. So when you did the Key of G. That 5 chord would have been a D major or as it is 1/2 the time a D7 like you played later... The Dm would come in the Key of C. And other key's where it is a 2,3 or 6.... Ok this is where the NNS beats the Circle. On the chart or in your head. 90% of 3 Chord song's are 1-4-5 (any order) C-F-G G-C-D, D-G-A, A-D-E, E-A-B, B-E-F# , F-Bb-C. Also the 2m -5-1 (Dm -G-C). 4 chord songs 1-6m-4-5 (50's-now) 1-5-6m-4. (Modern). Also the 1-6m-2m-5. Remember the 5 Chord is often a 7. If you play these chords together they will alway's sound good together. If a Song is a 1-6m-4-5 in A it's a1-6M-4-5 in all the Keys instant transposing. Learning a song 3 chords ? 90% 1-4-5. 4 Chords 1 minor. 1645/1564. 2 minors 1625 should be your first try. Works for all kinds of Music from Jazz,Country,Rock,Pop,Rap....Yes there can and are exceptions to the m/Maj issue. Nashville Studio's will put - or m. if they want the 2.3.6m If not I hear they assume all is Major. Or so I've heard. Thanks !

[@whatabouttheearth]

Scale degrees (the actual term for the Nashville Numbering System) is part of the circle (if written correctly), it's not better or worse.

[@michaellandreth1392]

I think it is easier to understand and teach. Also until one learns that Key's scale in their mind. Looking at an NNS Chart with Arabic #'s will be easier for everyone to comprehend. think about how they put Cooking directions on the back of boxes Now imagine they did that like the Circle of 5ths. What's easier ? The chart is. @@whatabouttheearth

[@stevecastor4298]

Circle of fifths is bad assery and useful as can be, next you will.say you don't need to learn the names of notes..wtf...

[@shadowsneaker6546]

I am in disagreement. The circle is much easier to visualize from memory. The key is understanding how it works. The method presented in this video can work. It just strips a lot of the extra stuff you can get from the circle. Same thing, different approach. This is only half the wheel, and even less of the entire picture. Intervals is the key to understand either representation. Referencing in the circle format is just way easier. I would not recommend rejecting the circle in favor of this. Never remove from a knowledge pool. Add instead. But in the end, it's whatever rocks your stage...

[@kennethpace9887]

Noone pulled the circle out of their ass, if you take music apart you find a pattern. And the pattern repeats. It doesnt make you smart, it. The damn guitar is built on it. the strings B E A D G C F with the top 2 raised a half step for ease of use. Add 5 more strings to the guitar, what would they be? Bflat Eflat Aflat....take a look at your circle

[@kevincozens6837]

The title says Circle of Fifths is garbage but then says to learn it this way. If it is garbage why bother with it at all?

[@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA]

Because I present the info in a non-circle way, that’s the whole point of the video. It’s not the info that’s wrong or bad, it’s that the “circle” way of presenting it is confusing and misses the mark for most Guitar students.

[@sharedpollard4407]

There is only 7 notes in a scale, so no need to show first note of a scale twice [at the start and end]. Its the 7th note [the last note] that is changing.

[@yourmomlovespenis]

I definitely support this video. Honestly to me (despite being proposed as a shortcut) has always been the long way round

[@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA]

Kindred spirits, Richard!

[@ifoundthistoday]

thx learned a lot .. watched it a couple of times .. took notes

[@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA]

Great! Glad you got some use out of it.

[@TheGreatBaronOBeefDip]

Whats funny is when you played the "wrong" notes in that riff, that sounds good for metal haha.

[@stevecastor4298]

Circle.of fifths is bad ass and extremely useful

[@sharedpollard4407]

You just showed circle of fifths without making a circle. Which is fine. People visualize things differently so whatever helps people learn the note scales and keys

[@user-mc9sg9fw3w]

Glad the algorithm led me here :) Great explanation!

[@asylumfrog5003]

By using the d7 chord all you are doing is using a secondary dominant chord to resolve to the G major so i do not see your logic

[@vincentc.4722]

His logic is that what you call secondary dominant can also correctly be called borrowing from the G major scale, or it can be a modulation to fully establish G major as the new scale, depending on musical context. I only listened to the video one time but that part is short and I don't think there is enough musical context to decide if it's a short borrowing or a modulation. Also, I think if you're a jazz musician you'll tend to see it more as a secondary dominant, because it's a very common thing in jazz, whereas if you are a classical musician you will tend to detect/expect a modulation. It's just a point of view. Quite frankly, I see it mostly as a missed opportunity to explain the tritone dissonance and how it resolves (he says F# makes you expect G but he doesn't explain why, when it's one of the most important things!)

[@zAvAvAz]

Thanks. Simpler it gets the voodoo confusion demistifies.

[@skylark5789]

FINALLY !!! Now I get it. Beautifully explained. You should have thousands of subscribers just because of this. Thank you so much!

[@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA]

You’re welcome!

[@skylark5789]

💖@@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA

[@margomorris9752]

I have not explored the circle of fifths for the simple reason that looking at the wheels scrambled my brain in a nano-second. Finally, I have some understanding of this thanks to this video. AND he's teaching the way to apply the cycle to writing music and playing riffs. Yay. The light bulb is lit!

[@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA]

Let there be light.

[@jonathanlupo5333]

Great practical explanation! Very useful knowledge. Thanks!

[@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA]

You're welcome Jonathan, thanks for watching.

[@edcrutchfield3447]

Yes. Thank you for your information. I’ve looked at your lesson as well as Michael’s amazing English (master the circle of fifths and find but interesting. . I would not call the circle of fifths study garbage. But your add drew me in. Always good to have a open mind.

[@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA]

You’re welcome - and yes, the title is intended to be “over the top”!

[@edcrutchfield3447]

@@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA thanks for getting back to me . Appreciate your ideas 💡

[@janedubourg4837]

What the foook are these tab things? Learn the rudiments.not difficult.

[@martinhans252]

Great video, man. You made it so simple. 👍👍👍

[@angusorvid8840]

Great vid. I've been playing for almost forty year. Back in the mid 80s when I started playing, I had a terrific teacher who taught the cycle of 5ths and a not so good teacher before him who insisted on the circle. Cycle is a better way of describing it. I hope more new players see this vieo because it's a great lesson explained brilliantly.

[@mikegeld1280]

Geez man.cmon get on with it,I can dig it,I agree,but damn,get to the shit

[@XLR8NXS32]

Thanks so much!!!

[@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA]

You're welcome, glad you liked it

[@jessebreakspear6656]

ever wonder why our music is broken into 12 notes and not like 13 or 11? circle of fifths beeeaaaach LOL took me years to figure that out so not really a brag LOL just adding to the conversation

[@willylumplump1735]

I have been playing guitar for 4 years, so much to learn. Thank you for explaining the 'Cycle of Fifths' this way. I have never understood the 'Circle of Fifths', even though I have tried to with my books and videos. Your explanation took the 'voodoo' from it in a very understandable way!!! Also note that this video of yours is for every genre of guitar player from classical to jazz to folk(not just metal). You are a very good teacher. I highly recommend for any guitar player.Thanks again.

[@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA]

You’re welcome! Glad I could help out.

[@russcoleman2338]

Good video....but isn't this just the Circle of 5ths written as a list? Circle/cycle...Potatoe/potah-to

[@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA]

After a fashion, yes - but there is a huge difference in the way similar information can be “packaged”, and that’s the point of the vid. Circle is not conducive to full comprehension and application, to the majority of Guitar students.

[@russcoleman2338]

@@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA yes agree 100%....your way is much clearer to me because you 'find' the sharps/flats by the WWHWWWH formula. I think your 'algorithm' / 'formula' is easily remembered. I recreated the whole 'Circle" easily. (something I couldn't do before). Maybe a better title would be 'a better way to formulate' the Circle of 5ths. In case I seem like a whining, ungrateful sod. I'd just like to say "Thank U for your video."😀

[@EugeneFerreira-v9r]

Are you insane

[@thestratinez3430]

I think circles are overrated ^^

[@MetalGuitarAcademyMGA]

We’ll rounded, but yes, overrated.