Why Clawdancer is Awesome in Pathfinder 2e Remaster's Howl of the Wild

[@alarkhar]

To be honest, Clawdancer would combine perfectly with a frenzy ranger; one action to start the hunt, then the Clawdancer falls over the enemy like a blender on PCP.

[@jasonsoares326]

My daughter loves playing any character with claw attacks. She's going to love this fierce archetype for her Kitsune!

[@Ghost.in.the.Machine]

It's great on a rogue. 1d8 finesse is hard to come by, and now you can make talon strikes while your hands are full of stolen loot. Or what I am doing - a ruffian rogue grapple build. Oh, hey, look, I've got a grappled baddie in both hands, but I can still make talon strikes. Oh, you want to escape my grapple? Have a MAP Claw Snag, and hey, you're grappled, so off guard - I get sneak attack damage, and since I maxed strength my Athletics DC is no joke.

[@Zixor_]

Tear Tendons seems like a D tier feat among an A tier archetype. You have to give up both free hands (one of the best perks of being an unarmed character is holding potions or alchemical items or a shield in your free hands), spend two actions, and only enfeebles if both hit (an unlikely outcome against most foes). I’d definitely pick up any k of the level 6 feats over this level 8 feat. Edit: just realized it also had a Fort save lol. Bad feat.

[@Sugar_Crash1]

Consider: Flurry Ranger with the Clawdancer archetype. I can't find anything in Ranger specifying you need to use weapons

[@mizerablegit4720]

Hmm......velociraptor awaken animal clawdancer monk time

[@amelialonelyfart8848]

Claw Dancer is also great with Gymnast Swashbuckler!

[@Dudeman715]

I feel like animal instinct barbarian would have alot of fun with this too

[@kuraidoscope]

Im taking this one just because Wheeling Grab feels like a Hurricanrana

[@SquidasaurusRex]

Hmmm... Dashing Pounce and Springboard only state Leap. So that's 10-15ft of movement. Sure that'll get buffed by some Leap feats but RAW you cant do a Long Jump if you have Quick Jump, which means you cant use it Long Jump specific things. Still nice to have movement but unfortunate you cant Cloud Jump across the battlefield.

[@MichaelSchell-yb7sh]

Awakened bear druid, storm order, claw dancer and maybe shocking grasp?

[@imoj]

Heihachi would be proud.

[@MrTallFrog]

I don't think Wheeling Grab grants a grapple attempt, I think it lets you choose if you want to have the target grappled after you succeed your tumble through.

[@Zixor_]

I don’t think that’s right. The feat states “If you moved through an enemy’s space, you can Grapple it.” Grapple is the name for the action that attempts to Grab or Restrain a target, Grabbed is the name of the condition. For comparison, the feat Combat Grab bypasses making a Grapple action and simply states that the target is Grabbed.

[@Iceblade269]

I hate that you can’t use the monk claw weapons with this.

[@zartardintycus7081]

🤘

[@JamesTillmanjimthegray]

Clawdancer is nice

[@mobi2289]

It's not nearly as good as you think. The biggest issue with it is a single line of text for both stances. "The only strikes you can make are frenzied claw (or spinning talon) unarmed attacks". Playing a lizardfolk and want to use bites? Nope, not allowed. Want to play leshy and use it's ranged unarmed attacks? Nope. Want to play tengu and use your beak? Nope. Have fey ascension dryad and have a ranged unarmed attack? Nope. Have a graft that gives you a poison unarmed attack, or tail attack? Nope. Want to use your fist? NOPE! All this archetype boils down is a collection of other already existing feats, but limits your ability to use any other type of strike.

[@onlynormalperson]

I think that's the entire point of naming it "clawdancer" and emphasizing it's a catfolk speciality.

[@mobi2289]

​@@onlynormalpersonthen why not have a requirement of "catfolk" or rename it as such? Lizardfolk, witches, and claw grafts all are claw attacks. Why make an archetype that limiting when it's not even that impressive? Why play any ancestry with an unarmed attack and this archetype when it doesn't even allow you to use it? It's excessively restrictive. Hell, ranger gets feats quite similar to this archetype. Level 16 for a 3 action, 3 attacks and a step for each one but only if you hit? At level 6, ranger gets skirmish strike. Which for 1 action, let's you step and attack in any order and does not require you to land the hit. There are a ton of other feats that are just slightly different or the same as the ones on this archetype. However those feats don't actively stop you from using something else. It's an archetype that was supposedly made to help improve unarmed attacks, but then only allows you to use that specific archetype unarmed attacks. It doesn't even help monks as it stops them from using their own stances. It even almost forces you to play flurry ranger as so many of the feats only work if you land a hit (flurry hunters edge basically further reduces the MAP, so at a high enough level, your MAP with an agile weapon are only -1 and -2). This archetype has some major flaws that are not pointed out and it sucks that they are being ignored just because it's a flashy new archetype.

[@onlynormalperson]

@mobi2289 why would a level 2 archetype be desirable when it's similar to a level 16 class feat? What were the designers thinking!

[@mobi2289]

​@@onlynormalpersonuh no... It's the level 16 archetype feat compared to the level 6 ranger feat... The ranger feat does very similar thing as the level 16 clawdancer feat but without the condition of having to land an attack to step. So yeah, why would the level 16 clawdancer feat just be a more restricted form of a level 6 ranger feat?

[@onlynormalperson]

@mobi2289 ah I see I misread. Sorry I was obnoxious. Well I still think it Clawdancer would be a great free archetype pick for a martial catfolk, and I think that's enough for an archetype, especially because in my experience Catfolk are the 2nd or 3rd most popular ancestry after elf and dwarf, though obviously my sample might be nonreflective of other groups.

[@ginger-ham4800]

This is why I'm iffy with Pathfinder. A lot of these feats SOUND good but are actually either terrible or worse versions of much better feats. There are just waaay too many traps and pitfalls in character creation.

[@Ghost.in.the.Machine]

Which would you say are terrible (other than the level 16 feat)? Also, what class or archetype has better versions of all of these? What makes an archetype good is not that it is the best at something so much as that it adds capabilities that a character wouldn't otherwise have access to. For that matter, the power difference between an optimal and reasonable but not optimal character is rather slim compared to most TTRPG systems. Traps and pitfalls? Sure, there are (mechanically) better or worse options, but nothing compared to D&D 5e (oh, your fighter didn't take Great Weapon Master? Sucks to be you...) or even D&D 3.5/PF1.

[@saprone8885]

​@Ghost.in.the.Machine Most of them are pretty bad mechanically. Being in a stance is a higher cost than you might think at first, because it prevents you from going into other ones and switching is bad action economy wise. The Fighter has some really good stances, for example Point-blank Shot, Paragon's Guard, Lunging Stance to name a few. Also you can get similar attacks by just equipping a gauntlet which is basically free. If you want to really power game though I would not even bother using such attacks and moves and go for a reach weapon instead. If you don't have a reach weapon in a melee build you are weaker compared to someone who does have it, which is especially true for a Fighter. I am not a fan of grappling, but Combat Grab is pretty decent and reliable. Reason being you have to be directly adjecent to grapple. I would say it is mostly good against flyers. Improved Knockdown is insane. Very reliable, can be used at reach, denies enemy one action and triggers AoO. I don't know anything stronger then a reach Fighter with Improved Knockdown and a Sorcerer spamming Slow to deal with bosses. Reliably taking away two actions is very powerful. I am curious if there is anything more optimal.

[@Ghost.in.the.Machine]

​@@saprone8885 Other than the initial action there is no cost to being in a stance, other than the opportunity cost of not being in a different stance. It doesn't prevent you from changing stances though. You are right that generally it is not worth switching stances frequently until high levels... and that is exactly what makes Clawdancer so good. It allows for dynamic and action efficient stance shifting, with flavorful and effective feats. Is reach good? Yes. Are non-reach weapons a trap for melee characters? Absolutely not. Improved Knockdown (now called Crashing Slam) was a very strong feat... at level 10. Too good, it was nerfed in the remaster. No longer do you get a totally free critical trip, you have to land a second attack. Still good, though. Slow is an aberrantly powerful spell... if you are only facing one enemy. Solo fights are generally the easiest type of fight to begin with, no need to cheese them. Here's the thing though - is that a powerful combo? Yes. Is it the best? Not always. Is it so good that other ways of playing are no longer viable in comparison? *No*.

[@saprone8885]

​@Ghost.in.the.Machine Solo fights against one boss enemy are more difficult compared to trash mobs in most cases. It is easier for someone to get downed to a single enemy. With multiple enemies the health loss is usually more spread out among players and enemies won't crit as often. Another reason trash mobs are easier is that players can reduce action economy of the enemies by killing them. The fight becomes easier over time. Against a single target this is not the case. A boss can focus down one player to reduce action economy from the party. I wouldn't call non-reach weapons a trap, but just suboptimal. A Greatsword can still do a lot of damage, but a Halberd has more damage potential/opportunities even without AoO. So overall it will deal more damage. Switching stances means losing actions even at higher levels. Some of the stronger stances I mentioned earlier you want up all the time anyway. I would say switching stances is a trap. It is best to make a build with one main stance in mind. As far as I read Improved Knockdown only gots it's name changed to Crashing Slam. The auto crit seems to be still there. I am using Archive of Nexus. You are right nothing is always the best. However Crashing Slam + Slow is the most reliable way to take away two actions from a boss, which are usually the most difficult encounters.

[@szegediadam8793]

Does the Catfolk's Land on your feet (When you fall, you take only half the normal damage, and don't land prone) protect you somehow from the dashing pounce "you fall prone at the end of your leap" punishment? :D I thinking about a catfolk thief rouge... I think that would be deadly AF :D Give them a little str too for an extra umph and athletic, then use head stomp on the tripped evil lich.... ahhh good times :D

[@TrixyTrixter]

No because you arent falling. Same reason why it would not protect you from someone tripping you.