Why did 2024 Spring C9 fail? | JLXP Ep - 101

[@CompanionPrism]

Zven stocks soaring.

[@zoofboof9180]

Zven watching this C9 season be like 🤑🤑🫰💰💰

[@jorgeboria6452]

Like a pro player said don’t remember who was I think it was bwipo the reason berserker was good was probably because Zven as adc and then his support kept him on check to play good

[@westcoastswingerich8718]

Zven is to Berserker as Chauster was to Doublelift XD

[@adcain11]

so happy to see how fast you got this out. Love your work!!!!! BRING BACK JATT STATS!!

[@tjmorgan9093]

I think what Jatt said at the end is very true about not going too hard on any single player because it clearly was a team problem. Every player played below their level

[@sgt.squeegee1720]

I've been saying that Zven was a huge loss! He was their strategist & shotcaller, and kept people in check so they don't int.

[@ThienNguyen-ew4hc]

crazy how Jatt is so well spoken. Not a single 'um..' 'ah...'

[@BigMusicFan147]

5:57

[@acksawblack]

He knows to slow his speech over fullers

[@nick69420lol]

Jatt your content is actually phenomenal. I absolutely love your insight and format for your podcasts, please continue to make these!!

[@kimjunghoon02]

I was still driving home through traffic from the Riot Games Arena when you started recording this lmfaoooo great content and commitment Jatt, love what you do for the scene. Keep it up

[@vendolis]

Thanks SOOOO much for your JLXP ... You takes are so great.... Please please please do a episode after the finals like you did after worlds. ... Most times all other content from Riot stops when the Finals are over.. the finals are not covered outside the direct post game show...

[@jklkmll29]

Throughout the 0-6 runs, C9 took really bad engagements at really poor times. C9 vs FLY: Game 1: 1.3k gold lead with 6 grubs and first turret at 17 min, lost a fight at 28 min that cost both Ocean Soul and Baron. Game 2: 1k gold lead with 6 grubs and first turret at 17 min, lost a fight at 23 min that cost Baron. Game 3: 2.5k gold lead with 2 grubs and first turret at 17 min, lost a fight at 23 min that cost Baron. TL vs C9: Game 1: ~2.4k gold deficit at 17 min, lost a fight at 21 min that cost Baron. Game 2: 1.6k gold lead with 6 grubs and first turret at 17 min, TL sneaked a Baron at 23 min, C9 lost a fight at 25 min against TL with Baron. Game 3: ~2k gold deficit at 17 min, lost a fight at 25 min that cost Baron It's pretty sad to see that they consistently lose mid-game fights that snowball into their loses.

[@achroniccarebear7464]

It was a huge statement when Fudge’s counterparts took one of his picks in a following game and made it look massively better than when he played it two series in a row (Bwipo playing Gragas, Impact playing Renekton). Agree about the team level though, for some reason they seem like they didn’t know how to come together. I previously said on a different video it’s probably the last time we see these 5 players together, but maybe a boot camp will help them figure out how to play as 5, because the potential of this team is huge. I can probably see Berserker egoing and deciding to leave though - who knows what’ll go down

[@BrowneVlogs]

Thanks for posting this so quickly Jatt! It’s sad that broadcast ends so quickly after the series ends. I was looking for a dissection of the series like this

[@Grimprospect]

Thanks for posting the last piece of C9 content I can watch this season! Peace Jatt! Cya next split!

[@OneWingedRose]

I was surprised by just how many people were STILL believing in this version of C9, in this meta, going into this series. Seems like to me the team's been on a slowburn downward trajectory for at least 3 splits now, probably more, and they never once showed up internationally. Still like the players though so I hope they all bounce back and find themselves again!

[@harryman_1324]

This series highlighted the hands diff to victory drafting very clearly to me. All season building up to a series against TL, and while I know the APA champ pool narrative is a little overblow, what do you think he's going to play, surprise, its his ziggs. I know ziggs isnt always part of a poke comp, but it at least usually means a long range comp with some lockdown. How did C9 plan on fighting his ziggs and these long range comps, something they absolutely had to be prepared to face as its what TL is most known for, Renekton, Maokai, Ori, Kalista, Renata. If c9 isnt 3k ahead at 15, how do they ever, EVER touch the TL comp, they dont have range, and they dont have hard engage(which i guess is a more specific description of a hands diff comp). Game 2 looked at least reasonable to me, ban out the ziggs Asol, and actually bring range with senna, hwei, but the baron... then game 3 they decide, alright, range didnt work, lets go back to running at them, and surprise, its really hard to run at a team with so much range and counter engage.

[@PleasureMe]

Ziggs is the new zilean and na cant beat it lmao

[@ulthii]

My thoughts on C9: Fudge: Was maybe the 6th best top laner in LCS this split (being generous). Like has been said, played lane passive and often just fell behind, but what I think wasn't noticed more was that he was invisible in fights, often melting instantly with greedy damage-heavy builds or playing way too passively in fights. Far too often his poor positioning would force Jojo/Berserker/Vulcan to need to play too far forward in fights. Blaber: Absolutely agree that he was borderline invisible this split, but it seemed mostly a symptom of always being on tank duty to support Fudge's aggressive top picks and their aggressive bot prio via Renata/Nami. If Blaber was playing Jax/Kindred/Nocturne every game this split I think he would've looked a lot better with his playstyle. Jojo: The only human on the team some times, it felt like he understood that he needed to step up and make plays, and when they failed it looked bad. Definitely had his int moments (at least 2-3 bad early deaths in this series) but still was arguably the best player in almost every game, especially losses. Berserker: Got a lot of shit, but looking at the drafts from C9 it's so unplayable for him almost every game. What does a Senna do with a frontline that insists on flanking, or what does Kalista do when you're fully outranged by Ziggs/Varus? The Lucian/Nami caught slack for looking bad, but there were games that Berserker legitimately took over on Lucian, so I don't mind giving him a playmaker and trying to make it work. Vulcan: Definitely had a bad split and made some very questionable plays at time, as well as being poor with vision- C9 was almost always losing the vision battle. Drafts/Coaching: Horrific and embarrassing. Never evolved, never learned. C9 would always just fall back on "smash lane and hope we win in 25" regardless of enemy team skill or comp. I don't want Mithy fired like most C9 fans (it's clear the players love working with him), but I definitely would love to see Reapered/Yamato/etc brought in as a true head coach and Mithy kept to work under them. Overall, it feels like the team just never improved or learned this split, and kept trying to win stage games as if they were scrims, which also speaks to a failure of coaching and practice. Running it back would be a disaster, especially if other teams improve around them- I could see 100T and NRG also being better than this roster next split. Personally, in addition to a new coach (or three), I also wouldn't mind Zven being brought back, but I mostly just think they need a new top laner, whether that's Licorice or an import.

[@mcguigan97]

As you know, this is not football or basketball where the coach decides what’s going on. If berserker really wants to play those skill, intensive champs, he’s gonna play them if JoJo ignores their lack of vision, that’s on him. It looks pretty clear to me. It’s a conflict of styles. Berserker wants to smash lane., Vulcan wants to roam. Jojo doesn’t know how to play if it’s not all about him in a team fight comp. Fudge I think, just figured out that they were going nowhere fast, and just sort of gave up. blabber same. They are definitely going to make changes, this group cannot play together.

[@craigepperson7446]

The team's belief that they dont have to worry about stuff like team comps because they can just 'out hands' the enemy team has felt like a problem with C9 for several splits now.

[@jaku86]

I think my biggest issue with Fudge this season, besides his laning, is how he itemized. He falls behind as Olaf and still rushes hydra. I feel that Bwipo has the best insight on top, and how he itemizes is just so smart. He understands what the team needs with what he's playing.

[@jaybiven5926]

Hard agree. I hated his renekton build in game 2

[@hardlo7146]

@@jaybiven5926It was atrocious, especially since Lee also was squishy. They had no frontline whatsoever.

[@RomnysGonzalez]

Have been building terrible for a few years. This dude auto pilot the builds without looking at the context of the games.

[@SickMask16]

Really enjoyed your thoughts on this. I’ve been hearing a lot on Fudge and you made some great points on that. Awesome to see a prompt video on this!

[@josephsweeney5368]

I wonder if C9 will consider replacing coach Mithy or other parts of the staff. C9 has shown a stubbornness to adapt or innovate dating back to last year. They hard dialed in on winning through bot with hyper carry enchanter win cons with berserker and Zven which meant their drafts were always very predictable. Even though they were winning, I remember hearing concerns that C9 wasn’t diversifying enough in draft or style and that teams would eventually grow faster than them. That came true when C9 lost to NRG in the finals and got silenced at worlds. And it sounds true now judging by how their early season and early drafts/playstle were kept, hell even fallen back to as comfort in game 3. Imo it shows this team hasn’t changed much even as a core of 4. If the management is entirely to blame it’s impossible to tell, I mean it very well could mostly come from the player’s with how TL’s on stage play changed so suddenly, but its core to C9’s identity and I’m sure both have a part in it. The issue I see with swapping Zven back in is that it would restore the same roster that had the same issues, the difference being Zven has had time to improve with nonenchanter supports, but I can’t see that changing the supperteam strat of drafting and playing for rolling over lanes that they’ve been following for the last year and a half if they don’t change the angle they approach the game at, and that could come from shaking up the staff.

[@WhittleDragon]

love you jatt, but the fudge cope is heavy here. the guy has to go, or get good again. overall you're right about drafting to scale, and use your hands to win/survive lane, but that only works if they agree as a team on how to win and what win conditions are. berserker is too good to lose, but after a season like this, i wouldn't be surprised if he begged to leave. as much as i want zven back, i'd be disappointed if he came back as ADC. cause you can't fix fudge, and blabber has to learn to gank early if Phreak is gonna leave jung weak.

[@tcrotunda9856]

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” - Einstein This was C9 this split, and they don’t even have Insanity on their team… Jatt hit the nail on the head. In a C9 vid, Berserker was getting upset because people were running it down in scrims. I can relate with having teammates do what they want during practice and only caring when it’s game time. It’s not a way to improve as a team. I also think they felt a lot of pressure being labeled as the Super Team. Hopefully that wears off for Summer.

[@Chainsawhobo]

I agree with mid game sucking and your break down of blabber is so simple yet so spot on. Overall just so passive, with 1-3k gold leads time after time they never went for small plays to extend the gold lead (hands diff they win these easy). Been a C9 fan for 8+ years now and never seen such passive gameplay. IMO roster turnover in LCS is too high, we've got the talent obviously, if the motivation and chemistry is there let the boys figure it out and run it back!

[@Chainsawhobo]

drafting was bad and renekton is awful!

[@cakeyjunior]

APA had better all chats this split, all there is too it.

[@caseychambers2693]

I think Licorice/Blaber/Jojo/Beserker/Zven is way better than the current roster. There’s a chance that Fudge could get better in Summer. But the question for me is “Does this player deserve to be fired for their split performance?” and my answer is yes.

[@choppi910]

Such idiocy to judge everything based off one split. Especially since you mentioned Licorice. If people like you had their way, Licorice would have been benched and never would have gotten the chance to play the way he did. How do you not realize that skill and performance is not a constant and the factors behind them should be looked at instead of saying, this player bad, this player good. And on that note, what happens when your current good players start underperforming? Or someone like Licorice comes back and has a slow start because he hasn't played for a while. It will be back to, oh my god Licorice is so bad he should never be in LCS.

[@PhyrexianPraetor]

Almost every other time a team's exploded I've felt like people were too hard on the players themselves. But this time I think there really is something to be said about fudge and vulcan not stepping up the way they needed to.

[@League-f9x]

Welp at least we wouldn't see C9 get no kills against T1 again

[@jniquett]

no mention of where the coaching staff may have contributed to the breakdowns?

[@adester1]

C9 feels like 5 guys that just kind of show up to work to just do their job.. not quite quiet quitting but they are all well enough and thinking that'll be enough to get me through the game. Its why Beserker is pissed and its why their mid and teamfighing is ass. Sorry boys experience and skill wont automatically win games with the way it is now.

[@markmyers8491]

It feels like everyone is stuck on team comps. The real factor here is playstyle. TL is honing and perfecting sidelane pressure. They are playing on a different dimension than C9. It feels very punishable, like, hmm I wonder if APA is going side to push tower alone? Yep. C9 just never made a counter game plan and gave him free reign.

[@redkobold1]

C9 is playing the same the did in 2023. Difference? Berserker is not randomly hands diffing on Zeri and getting a Penta into Baron. They are winless in games they are behind @ 14. They had ZERO mid game understanding.

[@NotGilmore]

And the coach doesnt know his players champ pool

[@Mrryn]

This crazy thing is the amount of veterancy on this roster. Blaber alone has been an on-off starter since 2018 - the same as Bwipo. The only people relatively new to the main stage are Berserker and Jojo and both have already been at the top of LCS for about 2 and a half years including multiple playoff runs and international tournaments. These are players that *should* be acutely aware of the finer details of midgame transition and "player roles" in a team comp, not looking like a bunch of hot shot NACL players struggling with the transition to tier 1 play. And yet that's what they look like. Say what you want about coaching, Blaber has been a part of C9 for over half a decade now, been considered near the top if not #1 in role since becoming a full starter nearly every year. He is the franchise player and the primary voice and shotcaller/leader of the team for a few years now...and I think that needs to end. It's become more and more of a thing that C9 (and Blaber in particular to the point where Spawn has called it out directly in interviews before playoffs) just look completely out of sorts if they can't just win lane and have constant prio to free Blaber up and/or find an early skirmish to snowball. The only way they could before was purely out-executing in teamfights with mechanics. This isn't a new thing, just one they haven't been able to nearly mask as well as they have since 2022 summer, nearly 2 full years ago. Through multiple roster iterations, the only constants have been Fudge and Blaber. And as much as (deserved) criticism Fudge receives, I think there needs to be a serious look at Blaber now as well. When his gameplan even on tanks/facilitators for so many games has him being invisible and focusing on farm and not even neutral stacking and then looking like every call made is out of desperation if the team isn't ahead in tempo, that is a Blaber thing. And the worrying part as a C9 fan is that he is the franchise guy, firmly hoisted to the ship. Sad truth is, we see less and less of the electric psychofish with each year and seem to be holding on more and more to the couple of games where he shows up.

[@rainorshine6998]

Bwipo is on fly chump ​@@Mrryn

[@Mrryn]

@@rainorshine6998 Reading is fundamental, my friend. I didn't say Bwipo wasn't on FLY but was making a comparison of Blaber's age in terms of play in tier 1 to another player considered to be a smart veteran of the game - Blaber was called up in the middle of summer 2018 to start for C9, and Bwipo was subbed in for Fnatic when Soaz was unable to play in the middle of spring that same year. Bwipo is seen as some "true veteran" of the game in terms of his insight and macro knowledge, even though both he and Blaber got the call-up to a top org in their respectice major region in the same year.

[@rainorshine6998]

@@Mrryn just because you poorly worded it, it happens

[@stephensours8938]

Excited to see how this TL playstyle stacks up internationally. Ripping off a win or two against KR or LPL is a win in my book

[@takumifujiwara300]

summit just inted vs T1 tho it was a good showing last year

[@takumifujiwara300]

as long as NA is better than EU :)@EEE-or3ge

[@swervbe]

Like has been pointed out elsewhere, it's too much of a coincidence that all the players are performing badly and the teamplay has disappeared, it's more likely it's the culture and systems that are in place at C9 that are not as good as they could be.

[@alextintyrn291]

I think trying to break this down and examining individual failures might not be the most effective way to analyze C9 as a team. The consistent criticism pro players have had about C9 is their inability to gel together as a team and their tendencies towards playing for themselves, pretty much across the board. That is more on coaching and roster construction than individual failures. If changes are made to C9 in the offseason (and I imagine there will be), I hope the decisions are first to clean house in coaching and then find players who might better fit the team's vision of how to play, whatever that may be. The two easiest replacements likely are Fudge and Vulcan as C9 really needs a weakside player on one side of the map and better in-game leadership (a job typically relegated to the support) but idk who would replace them.

[@pasak1987]

Let's go TL!

[@klinkclang]

I started watching the LCS during season three and stopped sometime around season seven. I started watching again after the newest season dropped because I was having a lot of fun with the game. As a fresh viewer who didn't have a lot of the post-2017 knowledge, I never understood the C9 hype. At no point in the season did they seem like the dominate team that I knew they were hyped up to be during the preseason. Despite being qualified as a super team, they seemed outclassed in every role (with the exception of maybe adc). I know that Blaber dominated during the duration of the LCS that I wasn't watching, but he seemed like the most over-hyped jungler in the league.

[@Naturalrice]

Realistically, they're hyped because of their name value and the few people that follow the league are their fans. They also brought in JoJo who was the most over hyped mid from 100thieves. All of C9 s players were generally awful, but berserker brought enough carry power that if the rest of the team just out muscles their lanes, all the gold they lost on their shitty macro didn't matter. Every season they got progressively worse because no one really challenged that idea so they just solidified that theory and they just completely lost all idea how to play the game anymore.

[@hardlo7146]

Well as you said you had no prior knowledge lol. All 5 of these players were ranked at the very least top 3 at their roles, and they took what was the very flawed Emenes and replaced him with the mid lane superstar of NA Jojo. If you had kept up with the histories of these players it would be obvious why the hype was there.

[@GourmetNinj4]

Last split C9 just dominated (LCS) with a very similar roster, the only differences being Zven as support and Emenes as their mid. Their performance at worlds was extremely lack lustre however and many ppl blamed Emenes for being the glaringly weak link on the team with Zven not being good enough to contend internationally. I feel that when they brought in Jojo to replace Emenes a lot of fans (including myself) thought that would fix the team

[@Crazylegs722]

Agreed on your thoughts but I feel like the point of needing one of the carries to be willing to sacrifice for others wasn't fleshed out enough. Jojo and Berserker are used to being THE carry on their teams and were funneled farm and kills which helped them succeed as the win condition but when you have too many chefs and not enough sous chefs the kitchen doesn't cook as well. Jojo and Berserker both trying to be the win condition means that each of them will be weaker in the pivotal moment instead of one being incredibly fed or at least even. That's why the 15 minute marker was the test if they had a shot. If the lanes got far enough ahead it doesn't matter as much if the main carry is getting giga fed but mid and late game the farm/goal was being split so they couldn't possibly be on the same page as to which carry they needed to bank on. Split focus debuff is real

[@tjmorgan9093]

Really like listening to your thoughts Jatt

[@indigorune]

its interesting that you brought up the early game thing, because i feel like c9 has been depending on a strong early game to stomp the other team for a while. it's a strategy that tended to work in NA in previous seasons, but did NOT work internationally. but with the map changes (plus things like less gold per plate and no more early game herald), c9 seemed incapable of adapting. i think the roster changes matters a lot less then the fundamentals when it comes to this team.

[@szabel.]

my hot take prediction for new C9 roster with some other options in brackets lmao seems like some Jack moves Doran (Licorice) Peanut Jojo Zven (Berserker) Vulcan (Zven)

[@Zero-Gravity-Ind]

I agree about zven having done a lot for directing the team, it does feel that way. Vulcan isn't bad, but doesn't seem to click with this team. Fudge I feel has has been bad twice internationally, and just doesn't have that fire. Blaber and Jojo will take time if it's going to work. But yeah, they might be very incompatible pieces.

[@bashvash]

I never minded Vulcan, but after watching how much effort zven made to work with berserker, in and outside the game, makes it seem very apparent that Vulcan doesn't make near the same effort

[@mlm5150]

c9 had absolutely no cohesion what so ever. And you are right, they kept grouping too much. APA Had so much time in top and bot lane. I got a feeling there is a lot of frustration going on within the team about this as well. And if something doesn't happen to turn things around for the summer, Berserker might be going back to Korea. He has a drive to win, and when it seems like he is working and trying to hard to win. And that causes mistakes.

[@Meloview]

Man I love this podcast! Plsssss keep em coming

[@davidhoskin7176]

TL play-offs buff

[@rwwars6948]

Bezerker and emenes didnt get along Jack-"let me get a even bigger emenes(JoJo)" 😂😂😂

[@bobmonkey420]

Good episode, i think team mental and cohesion due to either ego, lack of a leader, or voice made it seem like C9 was just pushing for win lane, win game with no resiliency. Hope to see more JLXP, shoulda kept the original thought since C9 might have mechanics, but not sure what ingedient is missing to push them to the top over FLY or TL.

[@itorres008]

Saw the split stats, and Fudge had the highest KDA and CS/m. Was 3rd in many other stats. However, he had the least avg deaths AND tied for least avg kills. That, along with being close to top of assists and highest KCA does point to passive play. Perhaps, he was assigned a supportive role, with team expecting Bot Lane, Mid and Jungle carrying.

[@drewmalekith4614]

I think more people should be criticizing Jojo. Cuz yah his stage performance has been decent (when he’s not playing Akali into vi/taliyah) there’s info from C9s own blog that he has been absolutely inting in scrims and causing the team to not get good practice and just generally not taking it seriously and it’s also clearly affecting berserker (mentally and maybe even mechanically as he can’t get good practice from the inting)

[@sladevalen2120]

The superteam curse has held firm. The second they were dubbed the superteam i knew their season was over

[@leunam9130]

I wished you talked a little about the coaching staff for them this year. I do agree the players have so much weight on their shoulders and they should know better than how they played this split. However, something must have been rlly wrong with the coaching staff not being able to take to greater heights than the first week of the split.

[@milkdoes]

Appreciate how quickly Jatt got this out, even though i hard disagree with his take. Hes just way too gratuitous to Fudge's current skill level. I agree with his criticism that C9 was too stubborn to adapt and move away from early game snowball drafts, but i never realized how athletic Jatt is because that's a fucking massive leap to think that the solution is to give Fudge more counterpick. You need to work with the Fudge you got, not the rose-colored goggles of a 2022 fudge.

[@raymondandsweetheart7150]

I will very surprised if they run it back. Something changed after zven left. I find it crazy because Jack always catches the flaws and fixes them.

[@wakkawakkagaming3710]

The difference between this roster and the one from last year is simple: Fudge doesn't win lanes anymore, and Berserker isn't popping off every game. Other teams have figured out to stifle the adc, play conservative early, and let C9 talk themselves into bad decisions. What makes fudge's playoff performance especially egregious is he got bodied by two polar opposite play styles: Impact used patience and careful decision making to bait him into stupid plays, and Bwipo made him look like a wuss by bearing down on him the whole time. He can't win in an aggro lane, he can't win in a conservative lane, so what's his strength?

[@itorres008]

Could Berserker not have been himself due to Zven absence? I suspect Zven would have been on him all the time making calls and pushing him, while Vulcan may not be that vocal and just let him be.

[@dumpIings]

They didn’t have a strong voice / shot caller basically to get everyone to play the same style. Instead of Berserker just trying to force Lucian every game

[@mrdevonscook]

“The default strengths of all 5 of these players do not work well together in a five man team” To me, the keyword here is “default.” Someone has to be willing to change their style for the team.

[@GuruFromEHRPG]

arrogance and a lack of coaching I agree 100% with monte This team does not know how to play anything and because of that, The second they don't smash a lane they fell apart. Really, these two series felt like one side had coaching staffs and understood how to play their comps.......vs one that didn't The game 3 is the best example and monte really goes in on it during his review. Olaf was a great pick but C9 didn't know how to play their comp. Half the time they take fights the Olaf, THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE COMP THAT ALLOWS THEM TO GET ON THE BACKLINE WASN'T EVEN THERE! The fight where Berserker dashes forward to start a fight with Fudge on raptors (He shouldn't have been there, BUT Berserker shouldn't have the started the fight to begin with) being shadowed by Impact so he has to ult and ghost just to get to the fight because Berserker was a freaking numskull is the perfect example of this I would've loved to see a C9 with an actual staff because as far as I know. THEY have one on sight coach. Idk if it actually changes anything but it really does feel like that is their main problem. They just don't know how to play any of their comps they are running

[@davidbohn8955]

The team felt like it lacked an in game general that understood what to do and the wincon for each game. Zven I feel like brought that to last year's team and that is the void they need to figure out how to fill.

[@CompanionPrism]

100% Zven seems like he must have been the glue. In game leader strategist and also just incredibly good synergy with Berserker that Vulcan did not have. At all.

[@SadBearHotTakes]

I feel the team just plays so different than they did when having success in years past. Berserker and Vulcan aren’t clicking like him and Zven. JoJo last year on EG, was the main shot caller for the team and was VERY active in coms. Yet any coms I’ve heard from C9, JoJo isn’t saying much and it’s other all giving calls out. Idk how much that affects it but that’s a point to note. Overall, a bunch of talented players who never seemed to be on the same page. And even more, the coach, however involved in drafting, needed to do something to correct these drafts. Too often I knew it was over before they entered the rift.

[@Kokopelle]

C9 is starting to the the "Lakers Syndrome".

[@iMmunashe]

C9 plays like a super team with no clear leader / shotcaller. All that star power with no leadership or clear direction of what to do. And then there's the coaching and highly questionable drafts...

[@arkifane]

I really feel like the career of Fudge is heavily rose tinted based on the hype he was getting at the beginning from LS and the amount of investment Blaber put top, combined with the meta. When he came onto the scene it was a huge top lane meta, counter picks were given constantly and Blaber was the type of jungler who perfectly pushed that lead. Then any other meta, where top has to fend for themselves or take a losing lane, Fudge fails to do anything.

[@bretttharpwriter]

This is really funny to read as someone who actually watched them attentively year in and out and knows Blaber has never been the top lane babysitter 😂 straight delulu take. Fudge is more often than not completely left to his own devices. If anything they need to be coordinating MORE around top.

[@extraswaggeroni]

the Ahri Neeko picks are similar to Azir in that they can look for engage angles if need be. basically the teams figured out that if Jojo can't engage fights C9 can't win. I would say Blaber used to be the go button on the team but this split he's been pretty invisible

[@RomnysGonzalez]

?. THEY ARE NO SIMILAR TO AZIR. Azier isn't about "looking for engage angles". Azir is more of a backline cannon and THEN chase. Azir is one of the harder DPS mages on the game. This champ put out so much dmg. Ahri and Nekko are for engaging 1st and then the team gets the rest of the DMG. Azir is a late engagers and DPS machine gun.

[@koalaizigame4275]

3:21 not even early game , they did not have a plan , they just were inting . It looks like they just hate each other.

[@donutlie315]

I think c9 need someone that will impose discipline in the team. Either a new top/sup or a new coaching staff. Seeing the c9 documentary where berseker snapped bc they were inting in scrims shows that they are too soft on each other.

[@RomnysGonzalez]

They need someone like Inspired. A dude who is willing to call this shit out and put everyone on their places and reminds them their role

[@Squid0333]

Jojo going to C9 because of berserker and then berserker leaving the very next split would be the funniest team ever 😂.

[@reasarian2482]

Thank you Jatt!

[@Zero-Gravity-Ind]

I will say, not sure what it is, but C9 hasn't had that fire in them for a while now. They used to always fight, no matter what, and find crafty wins. That was a C9 thing even way back in the Hai days. But the last couple of worlds, and now even in NA, there is a weird hesitation that seems to bite them a lot. So they go for these hands diff plays, but they also play a little scared. I hate to see it, and I think it holds them back. I'm glad Jojo will at least push for things, even if he dies. Same for blaber sometimes. But the team as a whole used to do stuff like that. In one of the fly games, around elder, they could've tp-Ed to the enemy base to potentially win. Instead they just sort of stand around and eventually suicide. That sort of stuff happens so often now. I mean even today, fudge tps away from free tower AFTER Jojo is picked off. Like what are you doing? Coming to put flowers on the grave? Go pressure for a trade.

[@RomnysGonzalez]

Blaber and Fudge got so comfortable at C9 and without the risk of losing their jobs that they straight up lost their fangs. They got no will to fight anything, they got no will to advatange of every inche on the rift, they got no will to push their leads, they don't sidelane farm, nobody is shadowring or warding for his carries to farm sidelanes to get extra gold and XP. Blaber specially is a big issue. He haven't got it for years now. This dude used to be a scrapper, a creator of chaos and playmaking. A player who was a psychopath like MilkyWay who would do and get whatever the hell he wanted on the rift with his unpredictable pathing and use of his champions. Nowadays he's like Santorin on TSM era. This dude is a vegetarian. He just try to put the enemy team to sleep and expect them to pass out over their keyboards and free handed the W to C9

[@cedrichofstetter4057]

We love JLXP

[@thomasr.6807]

No General. No Floor Leader.

[@johnmiskella9981]

Big time TL! Apa really did what the team needed him to do. Nice to see him do well. This new look TL gonna be dangerous at msi

[@jaydee4177]

I was also impressed with APA, he still exhibits certain clear weaknesses but he really silenced the doubters with these last two performances (myself included). That being said, let's not delude ourselves here - they will only be dangerous to the other NA team, the EU teams (maybe), and the wild card teams. I haven't seen anything yet that makes me think TL could pose a serious threat to the top LCK and LPL teams. Still, we can always hope for some crazy upsets!

[@ObiWanShinobi917]

You have it backwards They'll definitely be a threat to other NA teams, will be a god level threat to EU teams (4th best region kek), and MIGHT threaten LCK and LPL teams​@@jaydee4177

[@mcguigan97]

Is Jojo the midland Summit? Great leaner. limited champion pool. If you don’t play around him, you lose. impressive player who is one dimensional

[@kyleblanchet8803]

Na summit needs attention to smash his lane Jojo smashed lane then helps his team unlike summit

[@finaljoses]

I also think Fudge is being one of the scapegoats without really deserving it that hard.

[@rainorshine6998]

Bringing zven back and picking up licorice goes hard

[@anguslum9561]

............ you release so fast that as soon as i went on youtube to watch the vods it spoils for me. GG

[@KDOG4796]

Yeah unsub from this idiot, actually hate people that do this

[@starloft3]

best content from the LCS, hands down. Appreciate you Jatt.

[@Iyetube]

I feel league changed through the years. At first it was simple macro, then it became objective macro/teamwork then it turned into how to team up not letting the other team not fulfil their objectives. Before you could get along not fighting big fights (korea dominant era) now it's all down how you can win fights to disallow enemy plays/macro. That's why China started winning worlds. Ofc hands and opposite side of the map plays, still keeps you even gives you small advantages.

[@arkifane]

I mean, is it not kind of his job to be the glue that completes the team comps. Especially in the top lane role and especially when he’s getting counter pick. Like I understand what you’re saying how maybe he was out of his comfort zone but, it’s his job and he’s one of the more senior players on the team.

[@dongolio]

Get Licorice and Zven in and you win LCS. C9 needs the brain and the brawl.

[@jacksimmons530]

Agree with every point made. The mean reason i want a new coach and not new players is because they never tried a new style. Mithy has never proven that hes a good coach hes just coasted on already good teams. Id take almost anyone ov r him at the moment.

[@Snootz86]

I think people overate how good/mechanically better C9 are meant to be compared to the LCS.. They aren't GENG or T1 In some positions i'd just rate FLY/TL players as just plain better (Bwippo/Inspired/Correjj/Impact) It also felt like for the last 1 1/2 years that they have just rolled up to 2nd or 3rd dragon and have Beserker win a teamfight (usually on Zerri) and blow the game open.. Its why they looked utterly lost vs GENG at MSI because outside of that they had no plan.. and Beserker while good is not Peyz/Guma/Ruler I think Fudge/Vulcan should be on the chopping block.. its a shame Wunder didn't come to NA last off season.. i feel like he would have been perfect and allowed Blaber to focus on Jojo/Botlane.. Vulcan has now played with 2 VERY good korean adc's and they clearly have fallen off massively.. if that's C9's win condition (it has been for the past 2 years) he can't stay as support for Beserker This has been a historically bad split by C9 recent standards.. especially if we remove the 100t series (vs a bunch of rookies).. regular split was terrible and even not making playoffs was possible.. Then 0-3 domination's by Fly/TL back to back

[@RomnysGonzalez]

After seeing Vulcan this season... I can see why Prince went mental boom and into an all time depression that make him lose all his talent and will to play league.

[@kirktrigance5135]

I was so mad at the title of this video. Opened KZbin to watch the series and this was the first video that came up on my feed 😞

[@saigonoryuu3101]

jojo is insane on syndra no? he shoulda picked it up

[@mikecassidy8322]

Poor synergy between Vulcan and Berserker, Fudge seems to have fallen behind other top layers in the league. Blaber not playing around Jojo enough..... It's too many things to say

[@kylej-e7963]

great video!!!

[@jdog8701]

If c9 doesnt fire fudge mithy and vulcan they will suck again

[@zeal514]

I just don't have faith in this teams ability to improve... To me, it's the coaches job to realize this teams weaknesses and have them improved upon, and build that cohesion. It feels like the "systems" are extremely rigid. The systems worked well for like a few iterations, but it's not gonna work for every iteration. I have felt this way for years about C9 too. It feels like they just always had these amazing players and this insane baseline. But than still, never really improved upon that baseline. Jack says they are going to Korea. But I'd bet nothing changes. They'll have the same issue. Even if they bring Zven back. They'll just have a higher baseline, but still won't ever improve.

[@travisalden7236]

So happy we do not need to be victims of watching C9 letting us down international this spring.

[@bashvash]

At the start of the split I was hoping. After watching the whole split I'm more satisfied that fly and TL will represent us at MSI.

[@Pewsplosions]

Take Huhi from NRG. Team needs direction, supposedly Huhi is too vocal and clashing with NRG, maybe he'd be the voice they need. And NRG can find a more passive support to help them as well. Win-win.

[@RomnysGonzalez]

The difference between Impact Renekton and Fudge Renekton was larger than my parents relationship after they got Divorced.

[@Mrryn]

First it was Fudge Gragas vs Bwipo Gragas. Now Fudge Renekton vs Impact Renekton

[@KyleBlanchet]

@@Mrrynfudge legit cannot play gragas or olaf and tries to play it into someone who one tricks those champs. his champ pool isnt it.

[@Mrryn]

@@KyleBlanchet This is honestly why I don't agree with Jatt's final assessment on potential fixes for C9: Fudge has had counterpick multiple times including in every game vs FLY. The entire point of the criticism is that he gets the resources in draft for counterpick but doesn't use it at all to actually apply pressure and open things up for the team - essentially forcing the enemy to answer him and give the team breathing room or openings for plays elsewhere or else just win outright and become a win con. If C9 as a team would use hard-winning early games to mask their midgame decision-making issues, Fudge does essentially the same with counterpick: just masking his deficiencies to go even or have a minor lane lead. Made even worse when he either counterpicks himself in the matchup (like taking Renekton into Jax/Rumble last year to the point of it being a meme) or additionally calls for jungle or even mid roams to push his matchup over. If you're investing this much into someone who can't/won't push the advantage given to create pressure and instead just uses it as to lane at par and then just disappears or is completely inept in the midgame, that's the League equivalent of putting him on training wheels and sometimes even guiding the first few pedals forward from behind only to see him still fall off the bike. Made even crazier by the fact that some of his best performances this split and even historically have been on weakside tank/frontliners - K'sante and Udyr but also Ornn and Sion - which makes the pivot away from picks like Udyr and K'sante* in playoffs even more baffling imo. It really feels like "international" Fudge arrived early by just being sonned on both sides of a matchup by superior top laners which is very damning because it's happening earlier and earlier since Dhokla did it to him last split in finals. They really need to evaluate Fudge's role or even place on the team if his confidence/drive/whatever is this shot this early because he is legitimately taking resource investment, in draft and in game, and giving no return. Fitting that he continues to claim and act in content like top lane is a useless island role yet Impact and Bwipo were, are, and have been two of the most impactful and consistent factors in their teams and players like Zeus, Kiin, 369 and Bin routinely play the role the team needs including outright carry with minimal assistance.

[@RomnysGonzalez]

@@MrrynA player who gets counter picks, get ganks and push ahead early and STILL CAN'T DO ANYTHING with those leads. He gets leads and get 0 gravity or attention from enemy team to open things up for teammates. Teams do not care or respect him to even worry about to shut him down. They just let him be because they know he got no aura. Nobody is worry about Fudge. "Oh Fudge got a lead?... Anyways let's keep dunking on Mid and bot. He will keep playing trying not to lose and lose his lead passively" You see the betters tops in the world hecks even Bwipo does it. You see them get a lead top and YOU KNOW this player is gonna run all over the lane and use his lead to stomp enemy top or either use it to push his teammates ahead with him. You see it so many times at LPL,LCK. You see them get a lead and how much attention they attracted from any team and how they start marking him and trying to shut him down sending a ton of people his way to stop the bleeding. The "bleeding" Fudge causes is like a paper cut.

[@HigherKaiju]

C9 excel with a player like Jensen that doesn’t absorb resources. Jojo looks good when team play around him because he’s the best player but on team of good players and him not being funneled gold he looked average

[@hardlo7146]

I very much agree with the Licorice point. While Fudge seemed very much outclassed by Licorice last split, I don't think changing the long-established Fudge player for the slightly better Licorice would improve anything, especially since Licorice would essentially have to re-learn how to play under a new team. The only worthwhile replacement for Fudge at this point would be some Korean/Chinese superstar. Even someone like Wunder wouldn't bring that much more than Fudge already brings imo.

[@ayh4968]

I fear tomorrow is a 3-0 as well, FLY bot lane is nowhere near yeon and core at the moment

[@ValtronHK]

It amazes me how people seem dumbfounded every time a "superteam" fails to meet absurd expectations.

[@Laaj_Faaj]

11:15 is exactly why people still think that Blaber is still good when he has been mediocre the past few years. They remember him running down other players in one of the most dominant splits the LCS has ever seen. What they fail to remember is that it was all done on Olaf, so when teams finally understood that Olaf was his strongest champion, they banned it from him, and as a result, C9 lost. Don't believe me? Go back and watch the 2022 season, or if you're not up for it, go back and look at the series (vs TSM in Summer loser's bracket) that determined whether or not they made it to worlds and see what TSM banned. It's outright ridiculous that Blaber has this much credibility amongst analysts when he's been hard carried by his laners. At best, Blaber is consistently serviceable; he's not aggressive, he doesn't control the game, he also rarely covers his lanes. Blaber may be one of the more efficient junglers when it comes to clearing, but he is also the least creative when it comes to pathing which makes him predictable on stage. To make it worse, when team fights start, he hardly ever peels for his carries which is outrageous considering how hard Berserker bailed his poor gameplay in 2022 and 2023. All of this credibility has gone to his head and because of that, he won't even try to grow nor develop his gameplay. Earlier this year, he said it himself on JLXP Ep. 99 that he doesn't need to try anything crazy because his lanes are strong. You can see that in his current gameplay when JoJo or Berserker are targeted and he does nothing about it. In the same episode, he even goes on to smirk and say, "If [Jojo] calls to come mid and I'm farming, and I say no, he can't do anything about that." Compare that to River or Contractz who sacrifice their farm for the team's tempo.. If all of these analysts on the show actually took the time to dissect Blaber's gameplay, they'd be able to see that there are almost no receipts for Blaber being the reason why C9 wins. There's a reason why the top 4 LCS junglers - Inspired, River, Umti, Contractz - hardly ever mention Blaber by name and that's because he's one of the weakest links of the team. C9 won't win LCS 2024 Summer, let alone make it to Worlds, unless Blaber sincerely changes his perspective and gameplay.

[@01kaskasero]

Bring back Zven so Yeon can beat him down

[@Arenyr]

I think what's baffling is that even with these star studded resumes, we still have players like Fudge and coaches like Mithy struggling to produce results. It should not be this difficult to create team cohesion, and I truly think a roster swap is probably the only route forward.

[@jon-davidduncan4262]

The C9 "systems" failed...they're drafts wouldn't have been so awful each game if maybe they had a coach there who hyperfocuses on out drafting opponents. Especially now when the games are played on live patches. They'd have a massive advantage if they had a certain coach who read/understood patch notes and could bring it to the stage...but the C9 systems don't support that lol

[@DeltaRaven97]

Oh boy... The only thing worse than C9 Crapping the bed is knowing every podcaster and NA League Show is never gonna let us forget about it.

[@HigherKaiju]

Jatt really brings up same stuff over and over. Apa all chat he’ll discuss it to death.

[@stephensours8938]

Put fudge on tank duty. Impact is humble enough to do it, so can he. Let mid jungle operate and form a better playing relationship

[@RomnysGonzalez]

Nah. He sucks at Tanks too. He play tanks trying not to lose

[@AkshayPrasadrocks]

As a C9 fan, this split and last year I just have not been surprised we lost. I was more surprised when we lost to 2016 TSM. They literally do not learn anything. Last year they started strong, and they just got worse over time. Mithy needs to be fired, he isn't coaching jack shit. Like one game they draft akali into vi/taliyah. Jojo gets smashed all game and perma dies. Ok, learning experience right?????// WRONG. THEY DO THE EXACT SAME THING A FEW WEEKS LATER, and guess what, SAME RESULT. Mithy is stealing paychecks. Literally everyone who watched the first game knew EXACTLY what was going to happen, except apparently the C9 players.