Why did Muslim civilisation fall behind the West? Mustafa Akyol & Dr. Abdullah Ali discuss

[@Hussainn27]

Eid-ul-adha Mubarak to all my brothers and sisters who are celebrating 💚

[@sonic4528]

The modern Muslim author, S.E. Al-Djazairi, has written quite a lot of books on this topic :D "The Golden Age and Decline of Islamic civilisation" in three volumes, and "The Hidden Debt to Islamic civilisation" in five volumes. He uses a wide array of sources, focusing on old contemporary accounts, and using non-Muslim as well as Muslim sources. If anyone wants to understand Islamic history better, Al-Djazairi's books are the some of the very best out there.

[@sonic4528]

@000-t3c-i5u I disagree completely. :D I've read some of the primary sources. Lane-Poole is one of Al-Djazairi's main sources for Zengi. And Lane-Poole portrays Zengi very positively overall. Poole does mention some bad things Zengi did, but Al-Djazairi cites him on that too. And I've read Lane-Poole's book about the Moors too, and S.P. Scott's book about Al-Andalus. Both are cited by Al-Djazairi, and by reading both, they are in line with Al-Djazairi's points. Of course, no historian is 100% correct okay everything, but Al-Djazairi is very reliable. While most historians have about 2 lies per page, Al-Djazairi only has several errors per book - and they are errors, not lies. For example, he says the Ummayads are good, but they weren't really. However, you can understand Al-Djazairi's reasoning: He says the Ummayads had good and bad rulers, some were tyrants, others good; and he thinks that a lot of the Abbasid sources about them are propaganda by the Abbasids. Makes sense. Some Abbasid sources may have been propaganda. But even though I disagree, Al-Djazairi has good points. Some Ummayads certainly were good. That's a fact. So overall, Al-Djazairi is very accurate and reliable, and it's difficult to understand Islamic history without his books. I'm sure the other author you mentioned is also reliable too. Also, Al-Djazairi does have experience in his field. He's been writing for decades, and as I mentioned earlier, his books do agree with the original sources. In fact, Lane-Poole portrays Al-Andalus in even more glowing terms than Al-Djazairi does! Robert Briffault is even more convincing when he speaks of Islam's role on literature, than Al-Djazairi himself; Scott gives a even more wholehearted tribute to Islam's contribution to every science than most others can. Al-Djazairi however is better than these sources, since he goes deeper in detail, is wider in his approach, and explains everything clearly, deeply, step by step.

[@sonic4528]

@000-t3c-i5u I don't remember the exact part about Zengi, but it may be about the conquest of Edessa. Zengi didn't massacre the people there, and even some modern historians agree. Some say that he did it, other say he didn't, but blame it on Nur al-Din instead. I personally think the Syrian Ummayads were mostly evil. Thats a more accurate opinion, though some were good. But my point is that Al-Djazairi's reasoning on that issue makes sense, even if we disagree. The Al-Andalus Ummayads were better though. All historians make mistakes and errors, but the reasons you gave aren't true. Firstly, Crusader literature now is very biased. Al-Djazairi said clearly that modern books weren't biased in an outright way like old historians would be, but in a more subtle way. I've read some parts of new Crusader books, and they are biased in the way Al-Djazairi says. I noticed that before I read Al-Djazairi's books myself. For example, new historians say things like, "The Crusaders commited some crimes, however they were not corrupt, they tolerated different Christians and even Muslims" and they cite Ibn Jubayr's description of Crusader Acre. However, Ibn Jubayr also mentioned that the Muslims of other Crusader regions were kept in chains, treated cruelly etc. When modern writers talk about crusader cannibalism, they say it wad due to extreme famine only. Yet older sources, by contemporaries such as Robert Monk, William of Tyre, etc, show us it wasn't just one or two cases, but widespread during the early Crusades, eating of people, and throwing their heads into besieged cities, etc. Modern historians don't really mention how the Crusaders treated Muslim women, and older sources, like Robert Monk who entered Jerusalem (1099), mention exactly what happened. And other contemporaries too, Crusaders themselves who wrote about what they did. New writers don't really mention how cruel the Crusaders were to other Christians. Some mention that Saladin allowed Native Christians to follow their own faith, comparing it to the Crusaders' intolerance towards native Christians. Barely any now really examine this fact deeply. Al-Djazairi does say that Native Christians largely worked with the Crusaders, yet not all did. But this is enough for now to explain why new books aren't really that good.

[@sonic4528]

@000-t3c-i5u Also, the Muslims did reach America long ago, and so did the Vikings and others. There's a lot of evidence for that, Including inscriptions in Arabic, etc. :D

[@beth1979]

Discussion is definitely better than debate. Thank you.

[@HajjDawudWalid]

There were a number of ahistorical misstatements made in this discussion. Al-Ma'mun who was the first Abbasid sultan who championed Mu'talizah wasn't a champion of freedom of religion and thought; he ordered the killing of members of the Prophet's progeny and imprisoned and tortured Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal for disagreeing with the belief of the creation of the Qur'an. His Mu'tazilah successor al-Mu'tasim was just as much of an oppressor to freedom of thought. I'm really suprised by Mr. Aykol's argument.

[@certinho76]

Same here. I only have a BA in Middle Eastern Studies and I haven't delve that deep into the intellectual history of Islam and even I know that.

[@nimasws4594]

If I'm not mistaken Mr. Akyol claims that the mu'tazila somehow championed freedom of religion through their theology but this is simply false, one has to read about 30 years of mu'tazili rule in Baqhdad and how they cracked down on anyone who disagreed with them to understand who the mu'tazila really were.

[@Coopmystery555]

It’s not what he claims, his praise of the mu’tazila primarily concerns their rational approach, he has special highlighted made clear that the minha (the inquisition to which you refer) was coercive and unjust. He also points out how previous and successive Islamic political entities- including asharites- have done the same. I think his gripe is primarily with coercion, which he accepts Abbassid caliph (mutazila) also engaged in

[@nimasws4594]

@@Coopmystery555 This just shows how freedom of religion as Mr. Akyol describes it never existed and how theology doesn't necessarily have to do with freedom or scientific advancement. This further confirms that Mr. Akyol's ideas are reductionist at best.

[@liban4679]

Imam ibn Hambal was one of them if i don't mistaking, they tortured him in prisoned him for just opposition their theology.

[@fy3219]

I think he’s saying that because he is sufi

[@fy3219]

@@liban4679 yes imam Ahmed bin hanbal refused to do kuruj because it will cause more fitnah

[@PolySpikeAndWave]

Thank you Mr. Paul. You always address the most interesting topics. Aid Mubarak to you, to your family and to all Muslims 😊❤

[@zariftahmid9854]

Aids ohh my god

[@nimasws4594]

I remember watching a debate between Mustafa akyol and Abdullah al andalusi that took place 10 years ago It's baffling to me that Mr. Akyol has not changed his ideas and arguments specially when his arguments have been dealt with for God knows how long.

[@imammamunu9537]

I remember that discussion also.

[@Mr.Jasaw13]

True that

[@DeanbridgeRE]

I saw Mustafa get really lambasted by Sh Hamza and Dr Jackson at Pepperdine about 5 years ago. He had no textual or rationale comeback for the points Dr Jackson brought forth.

[@muslimemporium]

The west's advancement was majorly driven by colonialism, imperialism & industrialization. 1700s was the time when west began to ascend and the Muslim nations went into stagnation.

[@killerpie5981]

Yeh you are right people hate to admit it but the jihad of the sahaba and ummayads was what made the Islamic nation at the top in the first place just as the the age of discovery and colonialism is what made Europe great not reforming religion and civilisation as these people would make you believe

[@chickensoup9869]

Don't forget the generational memory lost of civilizations. Philippines used to be muslim majority. Philippines is still using the name of the Spanish king that colonized them. Malaysia, Indonesia and Philippines all lost their own writing systems and are currently using roman alphabet system. The target group is clear. Non-muslim lands like Thailand get to keep their writing system yet muslim majority lands got fcked extra hard during colonizations and underwent mass deletion of knowledge. The mass memory lost of own civilization method is straight up from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It's not a propaganda when anyone can go google to confirm the colonizers Stamford Raffles, Ferdinand Magellan and Radermacher all belonged in the same club despite coming from different colonizer nations. They all built their msonic lodges in the lands they colonized. These lodges are physical buildings, physical proofs you can see with your eyes. This isn't antisemitic bs. Also it's easy to be ahead of everyone else in technology when you can just delete your competition off the face of the earth when they get on planes. Same pattern every time and they say muslims can't contribute to new tech.

[@aymericdelansalut2760]

Imperialism and colonialism were a result of the west advancement and not the other way around

[@gustavusadolphus1915]

The renaissance began in Europe before imperialism and colonisation.

[@skepticalzostrianos9875]

@@chickensoup9869 "Stamford Raffles, Ferdinand Magellan and Radermacher all belonged in the same club " Whats the name of the club?

[@lpbszn2957]

Need more dialogues between modernists and traditionalists like this instead of the garbage hand-waving both sides do which implies they can't engage in this dialectic.

[@shefayetchowdhury6316]

Agree.

[@Marawan]

So many good videos lately Paul, I'm trying to catch up because I rewatch each video a couple of times. Keep it up!

[@BloggingTheology]

Glad you like them!

[@shefayetchowdhury6316]

This is the way to discuss our differences in theology, philosophy, apologetics, jurisprudence and sectarian bias between Academics and Intellectuals without calling each other disbelievers, name calling etc where everyone gets lost in the heat of the moment, array and create more confusion!... what we need is Analysis, intellectual challenges and cross-examination to build intellectual bridges despite differences through dialogue between camps and thoughts. 👍🏼🤝🤗 well done Paul. We need more of this type of discussion as well.

[@mrssomeone2143]

please don't. it only brings confusion

[@GUULLIVER]

@@mrssomeone2143 such discussions are the best method to come out of real confusion and ignorance...

[@7539109]

Dear Paul, With Allah’s blessings I have made duas for you yesterday on the day of Arafa in Makkah. Today i’m in Mina and remembering you in my duas here as well. You, indeed are an asset for the Muslim Ummah. All praise be to Allah to have guided you to Islam and now he has Alhamdulillah made you a waseela for the guidance of so many people. Just like the Islam of Umar Bin Khattab empowered muslims. Alhamdulillah with Allah’s will and blessings he has empowered the Muslims with your acceptance of Islam.

[@BloggingTheology]

Eid Mubarak!

[@7539109]

JazakAllah o khair. And Eid Mubarak to you too. You should plan to do Hajj. And inshAllah when you’ll visit Makkah for Hajj you’ll see how Islam truly is a global religion with absolutely no difference of cast, colour or creed. I have seen richest or the rich people standing right next to the poorest of the poor in prayers and while making Tawaf.

[@SadafSa]

What a beautiful and respectful exchange of ideas. While Dr.Ali seems visibly frustrated at times and is not convinced by the explanations offered, he nevertheless carries himself with immense grace and Br. Akyol’s patience and humility is definitely praiseworthy…very rare in these times where many “scholars” are busy mudslinging each other, with no effort to actually engage in a healthy dialogue, their dismissive attitudes only helping islamophobes. Have to say, Akyol’s arguments appeal to human intellect. Dr. Ali’s point about freedom having limits in the real world is accurate since absolute freedom of one is probably NOT possible without infringing upon someone else’s freedom/rights. He also reminds us that ultimate wisdom behind all Quranic laws rests with Allah (swt) and whether we comprehend the inherent good or evil in actions, we are obliged to stay within divine boundaries. However, what Akyol tries to get across does not actually contradict that at all. He only stresses that while we can hold “orthodox” beliefs, we have no right to have them imposed on everyone around us. I think Dr. Yasir Qadhi makes that very clear when he says that Islamic punishments that would be applicable under a khilafa, can’t be meted out by governments of nation states. He also highlights that when “Reformation” is brought up, what is meant is reformation of the mind as in our interpretations/understanding of the Deen, and not of the Deen itself. Also, is it fair to conflate sin and crime? Or should they be understood as two different concepts. Sin is a moral matter, crime a legal… of course some actions fall under both. While we must call out immorality and sinful behaviour, do “Muslim authorities in Islamic countries” have the right to abuse Hudood laws? What does criminalizing something entail? As for understanding the contentious issues of slavery and concubines in Islam, Dr. Khaled Abu AlFadl of Usuli Institute offers a very thorough, thought provoking and erudite exegesis of the Qur’an. He highlights the moral principles underlying the various Qur’anic injunctions. You can disagree with some of his points but do not let that prevent you from benefiting from his knowledge. Would be good to have him on here some day. Thank you, Paul, for helping share all kinds of perspectives and discourses.

[@sadshitpoorpoop]

Very well put mashaAllah

[@fastiosguy3528]

If you choke the text hard enough it will say whatever you want it to say. When you set a goal for your self before engaging the Quran, and then try to justify what you want based on the text you're conforming your religion to what you want instead of conforming to what the religion wants. In that sense when people say, we are trying to reform the mind not the Deen, they are just trying to reform the Deen. I am not saying that this is what Br. Akyol is doing here, but I would look at other things affecting people's moral values which they later try to impose on the religion and also look at myself and see if I am merely trying to reaffirm something which I already knew. I think this was Dr. Ali's point when he kept affirming that the Mu'tazila had been influenced by outside sources and Br. Akyol kept saying that they relied on the Quran as well, but that misses the point, the Mu'tazila were looking to affirm something they already knew using the Quran instead of letting it speak for itself. so it really is just a matter of what you consider primary and what is secondary, we all agree that when the philosophers started denying the attributes of god they went too far, but that shows what they considered primary and what secondary, obviously they considered the other outside sources as primary and the Quran secondary. while the traditional view took the Quran and Sunna as primary. In the same way people who are calling for reforms whether they say it out right or dress it up as reforming the minds, I see as people who hold secular values as primary and the Quran and Sunna as secondary so I would be very carful dealing with them. Wa Allahu A3lam.

[@Hamza000h]

Agreed. I would love to see shaykh khaled abou el fadl on here. Hes just levels above the other scholars

[@SimpleReally]

I don't think this conversation got anywhere in terms of answering the question in the title besides Mustafa Akyol quoting one person who didn't think geometry was very useful, I was expecting to hear about some ottoman state policies or some major fatwas or a negative public reaction to technology but we got nothing.

[@wandering3ngineer]

Still listening. Interesting conversation guys. Really appreciate your nuanced dialogues

[@salemmubark330]

Eid Mubarak to you and your everyone watching this channel.

[@gryblk21]

Western civilization may be going through a decline of many generations that can be studied by contemporary scholars. It would be interesting to see if there are similar causes to the Muslim decline. It is always a hope that through such examinations we can learn to avoid past tragedies repeating endlessly through time.

[@altayebaaltayeba7028]

Eid MUBARAK to all. Very much appreciated. Paul is bringing very reasonable arguments but not blame game. We need to discuss and find out the reason why our new Gen goes wrong way.

[@maxwellmallery5638]

Thank you for facilitating this discussion Paul. This is a much needed format for the exchange of ideas and bridge building.

[@Abdullah-jazib]

Wow this podcast was a roller coaster ride through islamic theology i really appreciate the effort Mr. Paul for bringing these two scholars together.

[@TareqKhan0]

I am a tenured university professor in engineering in USA, having 60+ peer reviewed papers and 2 US patents. (not showing off, but trying to prove a point) I have long beard, pants above the ankle and follow the salafi methodology. I am student of Islamic Online University by Dr. Bilal Philips. I have many friends who are like me. We don't need to reform Islam, Muslims need to come back to Quran and authentic Sunnah to get the glory back. There is no other way.

[@sonny7159]

Allahu akbar! You've spoken the truth, and only the truth.

[@LuLu-qu3oz]

💯 let’s not fall for their trap.

[@thairinkhudr4259]

Mashaa Allah. This is true. May Allah reward you for your efforts brother. I hope to be a good muslim such as yourself.

[@lalucimot5946]

Yap i ve seen view of scientist in my country who that hold salafi believe, long beard and above ankle pants, and still teaching in the top university

[@kazimustaqeem]

Science is weakest in the land of muslims. Reinterpretation of religious thought is quintessential.

[@odim_1936]

thanks mr paul for this lo ely conversation your doing so much to the muslim community may allah bless you 🙏

[@rehanzafar5445]

Your channel is the reason I haven't watched a movie on netflix for over two months.. so interesting and informative discussions Keep it up Paul

[@RosewiththornsRWT]

Quite an insightful and respectful discussion among two contemporary Muslim scholars who hold views that aren't entirely aligned with one another. Eid Mubarak to all!

[@juxtapositionMS]

Quite a delusional discussion. Words from a devil. Akyol is not a Muslim scholar. He is a liberal devil.

[@143bdo01]

Mr. Akyol is not a scholar; he's a journalist.

[@noureddineharkat2330]

One word : thrilling. جزاكم الله خيرا

[@abdullahsabawi1202]

Thank you sheikh Paul Williams for making them define the concepts

[@mozy106]

Many turning points but perhaps the most important was in 1492 with the fall of Granada and the Beginnings of colonialism. 1500's King Henry 8th, church of England reformation. Printing press takes hold of society. King James Bible, 1611. Newton and scientific age of reason. Bank of England formed, 1694. 1800's Industrialisation takes hold. Steam engines. Factories. Fossil fuels. WW1, spanish flu, passport system formed. WW2. Bretton Woods. 1971, US comes off gold standard. Petrodollar FIAT money credit expansion. 2020, beginnings of reset to digital currency passport social credit system via internet of things. Orwellian Brave new world. Complete detachment from spirituality and the land. Arrival of the digital god/singularity/anti christ. All seeded in RIBA and the weaponisation of nature aka greed, the antithesis of god consciousness as old as ancient Egypt and Babylon.

[@ridwanarifien1628]

Wow you seems know history well, may i know your reference so I can deep learning about your summary?

[@mozy106]

@@ridwanarifien1628 Apologies for late reply. I have been on a 10 day internet fast! Sure, to understand better the history of money/finance/usury, I recommend Anthony Migchels. To understand from a religious perspective, I think blogging theology and lets talk religion are two superb resources so you're in the right place already.

[@swatisquantum]

Wow. From my research I agree with you. Very good summary.

[@ariyoabiona1606]

I just started watching and I love this format already.

[@husamabou-shaar9740]

Thank you Paul for beautiful and graceful presentation, as always. Adha Mubarak.

[@blade4048]

Great discussion. Muslim scholars should be able have civil discussion between different school of thoughts like this rather than issuing thakfir behind the desk.

[@notadane]

Thank you, Paul, for hosting this conversation. Excellent discussion on a very important topic. You're a one man army. Blessed Eid to you. :)

[@feezalhussain1977]

tqvm for 2 hours video with 2 distinguished guests bro paul..its been amazing to listen to them again..wishing all a happy aidiladha ❤😁

[@liban4679]

Fascinating discussion more like this pplease, thanks Paul for your wonderful work.

[@hmansour89]

I loved this video because it’s sparking an important discussion that has been missing from the islamic discourse. It would be nice to widen these discussions to include all groups like sufis-atharis- salafis- wahhabis. Issues like : Takfir- Ta’weel- calling on dead people- divine attributes and shape of islamic governance are at the core of contention. The Ummah is fragmented as a result of theological and political reasons and unless these issues are addressed then the Ummah will have no hope.

[@WepGrade]

mashallah very impressed with this discussion. both "opponents" for what of a better word, were still respectfully and extremely honest in how they conducted themselves and towards the counterpart

[@DawahTrucker2024]

Excellent conversation brother Paul, we need more line this. Jazak Allahu Khairan, Eid Mubarak to you all these in the UK

[@juxtapositionMS]

It's not excellent conversation. It's a complete misguidance. Akyol is a devil. He should be kicked out of any Muslim discussion panel. A devil worshiper.

[@AbuHaneef]

Awesome discussion. I started listening to this and then I stopped. I went out and got the book read it and rewatched the discussion. The book is extremely well documented and Doctor Ali is only going to make Mustafa Aykol stronger in his delivery of his scholarship. Both of them will benefit from this discussion and I believe Dr Ali has already done so. This is not going away. Young Muslims in the west as well as converts have already agreed with a lot of Mustafa's arguments whether they say so openly or not. We need more of this!

[@hatooma1000]

Quality discussion MashAllah. May Allah reward you brother Paul for providing this and for letting the discussion go on with out intervening despite your knowledge MashAllah.

[@albatross9995]

Beautiful discussion. Loved it brother Paul

[@QuranicSystems]

My view is that the growth of the Muslim Ummah of Nabi Muhammad Sa’s came to a halt at least 5-6 centuries back when it reached the stage of adolescence because of the ghafla that engulfed ulumah. They looked outside of the Quran for solutions to worldly challenges and were dependent on other’s ilm that had sprung up during the fast growing initial stages.

[@samantarmaxammadsaciid5156]

Wherever they would've looked, it would've turned out exactly the same as, because they no direct or indirect connections to Nabiyyu-LLaahi, they were making up everything just as other worldly were!

[@yemre634]

Very refreshing to see someone suggest to look with an open mind. This is what we need; civil discussion. Not branding everyone who don't think the way you do kafir. Insallah in time the narrow minded extremists will lose power and the world will understand true Islam. The Islam that accepts not discriminates while not comprimising core beliefs

[@sameednaama]

Brother Paul... You are an absolute legend to do this... This is Awesome! May Allah bless you and this channel even more! Also, Eid Mubarak :)

[@askfaisalmuslim]

Materialistically speaking, never in terms of morality.

[@Coopmystery555]

Can we really say that? Unfortunately many muslim countries from Pakistan to Mali to Egypt, the poor and weak in society are completely at the mercy of the ‘haves’. Rule of law in many places (with the gulf a notable exception) is almost non existent. This can be seen in the west too but not nearly to the same degree.

[@askfaisalmuslim]

@@Coopmystery555 Oh, I am not defending any particular country or regime, whether in the West or East. It is stated in the Qur'an Surah 5, that those who do not rule with God's laws are the oppressors. Pakistan, Mali, Egypt, I mean they hardly rule with God's laws, most of these countries were founded after colonialism, now ruled by remnants of colonial times, hardly representing Islam.

[@logiic8835]

Thanks Paul

[@laylaali5977]

Excellent conversation

[@Sayz813]

Eid Mubarak Paul. JazakaAllahu khayr.

[@lordtaseen2947]

This is such a nice discussion. 😃👍

[@musha3462]

A different format but I loved it .. more of it please jzk

[@lorenzomuhammad1715]

all depends on how one defines “fell behind”

[@homtanks7259]

True and I feel he means Morally but that would be a mistake bc our Morality is from Allah, that simple

[@lorenzomuhammad1715]

@@homtanks7259 Yea exactly. I didn't really watch it to be honest I assumed they were discussing technologically etc. The West is in a very bad way, all the glitz and glamour but no morality, most western countries are so far in debt because of Riba and so are their citizens. Mortgages through the roof.

[@homtanks7259]

@@lorenzomuhammad1715 👍🏻

[@ericpowell4350]

Are you serious? It fell behind technologically, financially, academically, and politically.

[@lorenzomuhammad1715]

@@ericpowell4350 not everything is as it seems on the surface. Try to think with more than what the world has taught you and you will decipher what I was referring to.

[@baniadam900]

It was a brilliant idea to structure this podcast with this peer review dynamic.....

[@hamada_86]

My take away messagea from discussion, both are 'right'. Yes alGhazali's 'occasionalism' did influence Muslim mass world-view/thinking (scholars too), hence Islamic 'philosophy' scholars were out of favor and died out after that. Of course this cannot (difficult) to be prove empirically, but as someone brought up and travel around in Islamic world, i know how the average Muslim person view the world (which in turns reflect how our ustaz teach us). But this was not at all alGhazali's fault, for how the Muslim understand alGhazali's 'occasionalism' is different and wrongly from what alGhazali proposed. The true intention of occasionalism is around theology issues, as God is the Sustainer of the universe, not a contention of natural law of the world. And I think, occasionalism is the 'correct' view, of how traditional muslim should view our world. Sadly, most Muslim misunderstood alGhazali's works.

[@fastiosguy3528]

how does the average Muslim view the world? As someone brought up and traveled around the Islamic world I don't see this wrong "occasionalism" you mention rather the opposite almost all Muslim parents want their kids to grow up and be doctors or engineers and they don't view these kinds of fields as unimportant or negatively. I respect Mustafa Akyol a lot but I think he got it completely wrong on this one, the association he's trying to make does not reflect on the broader Muslim world one bit.

[@khaleelahmed9009]

Lovely brother Paul, JaskaAllah khair.

[@aejazmanzoor7404]

I think what Mustafa Akuyol has tried to do in his book is not something new and the criticism from Dr. Ali is nothing new too. Fazlur Rehmanit's book "Islam and Modernity" Was a pioneering study in this tradition and the reaction to this book from the traditional muslim scholars set a kind of trend in this respect. What we must take from this is that endeavours like this are a healthy sign for the entire muslim world and we must value it.

[@saqibsheikh2790]

Great conversation!

[@syedah9888]

Love your channel and your passion for intellectual debate in the Islamic realm!

[@NotesofKhan]

Imam Shafi loved Geometry. He said it causes exactness in judgement. Qazi Abu Bakr ibn Arabi learned all books of Euclid at an early age This is just for information

[@ameenmakanvand868]

Whenever a civilization becomes complicit and arrogant as a result of its own accomplishments it becomes susceptible to being defeated from where they least expect. You could say that of the world powers now but I would also apply the same rule to Islamic dynasties in the past. When they where great they where truly great, but when their leaders became arrogant and developed and inherent sense of superiority, they lost touch with reality and became very susceptible to defeat by outer forces. However, such as in the case of the Mongols, many of the foreign invaders (who were initially cruel in their own right) found the true meaning of Islam and I would argue in some cases became better Muslims than the native one’s before them. For me it just goes to show that no one is “above” the need for humility and that the Quran doesn’t say “Allah is on the side of the Muslims”. It says Allah is on the side of the just. If Muslim countries want to be great again they need to stay actually doing things according to what God values-not their own personal impulses. There is a reason why God tells us in Surah “Inshirah”: “when you are free still labor hard.” God never tells us to whine like children and act like victims while criticizing everyone except for oneself. Group narcissism permits that-not God. This is a point that I feel Muslims who are what you might call more “modern” such as brother Aykol, are very frank about. While I personally totally commend the neo-traditional approach, I for one am very tired of people who call themselves “traditionalists” but do nothing other than blame Salafi’s for the all the worlds problems and merely give the tradition lip service. Also if you want my opinion-the age of Caliphate is over and it’s never coming back. The best we can do now is just focus on moral refinement and bringing love and beauty to whatever society we happen to live in.

[@lastword8783]

the age of the caliphate is only over because Muslims themselves stopped wanting it. Had Muslims from Morroco to India and East Asia wanted a united Muslim polity, then we would have it. Rather we have embraced ideas of state based on things like ethnicity and nationality. A Caliphate is an eventuality of Islam being followed and if the time is not right to do that, then the least we can do is try to move closer to it and move our countries closer together militarily, politically, diplomatically, economically etc.

[@ameenmakanvand868]

@@lastword8783 Very true.

[@ameenmakanvand868]

Also another thought just came to my mind: during the era of the early Islamic conquests, there was overall a higher level of freedom of religion for Christians and Jews because prior to the Muslim conquests minority Christian sects had been persecuted by the one’s in power. Then Islam came and gave them all equal rights provided they paid taxes to the Muslim state and gave the Caliphs their loyalty. However nowadays we have many different kinds of Muslims at odds with one another given their diverse visions for the state of the Ummah and what defines the “real Islam”. Therefore what is the ultimate “orthodoxy” to unify us know? Each group will claim “orthodoxy” for themselves given their own methodologies and proofs-but that will realistically only create further damage since as Aykol said-everyone is “orthodox” in their own minds. For this reason we might say that the quietist method which seeks to refer things only to God in the hereafter is the only logical answer.

[@lastword8783]

@@ameenmakanvand868 No worries, my point was that Muslims should not stop wanting and striving towards a Caliphate.

[@aliberapinarbasi7859]

quran states in you were bad acting to the people they would leave you

[@omarelsayed7577]

Jazakumullahukhairan Br. Paul for this amazing video.

[@bas6628]

wow the centuries old ashari and mutazalite debate still ongoing... thanks to both these individuals I'm enlightened...

[@briancordero7674]

Dr .Abdullah Ali Philly homegrown.

[@ashmial]

Eid Mubarak brother Paul

[@MJB0110]

Thank you Paul & thank you scholars for sharing views. We are all ‘seekers of truth’ first and foremost no matter what that ‘truth’ might be & how uncomfortable. Perhaps the ‘straight path’ includes aspects & approaches of both these scholars (and others) the reality is we all need to be a little more open minded and self-critical. Eid Mubarak to all.

[@Nihat86]

Thank you Paul for this channel and this video. I'm a little bit upset you didn't have much input in this discussion.

[@lordtaseen2947]

This discussion made me feel good Very nice

[@Thepackman1997]

Thank you for hosting this discussion, Paul. I read Mr. Akyol’s book a few months ago and couldn’t understand his beef with Ashaarism, or why he has such a deterministic view of it. He raises important questions that warrant discussion, like free will and religious freedom, but I think he misses on his proposed answers to those questions. Thank you for this Eid gift!!!

[@sergeyastov6353]

Looking forward to this insha'Allah

[@ilahiyat1672]

The problem with Muslims is the contrast between their beliefs and their work. The first commandment of the Quran was read and that means read everything in the world in the name of Allah Read the laws created by Allah, learn the laws that nature has set, if Muslims did this, they would make scientific and technological development. Muslims only recited the Qur'an with their tongue, but they did not carry the Qur'an into their lives, considering wearing a turban and a robe and growing a beard is Muslim.

[@shoaibriz]

Amazing discussion. Only you could make this happen Paul. Mashallah.

[@TTO2023]

Every Muslim countries law should be Qur'an and hadiths if you are truly Muslim it is simple and that is the ultimate justice do these people not understand that?

[@imbored1179]

Eid Mubarak everyone

[@zenityquest8402]

I listened to Reopening Muslim minds as an audio book. The book brings up some very interesting points esp related to history of Muslim orthodoxy. Highly recommended

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

Would you recommend the book as a good read for a Christian believer? I'm not Muslim but I respect Muslims. Peace

[@zenityquest8402]

@@johnbrzykcy3076 For beginners I would recommend ‘Secrets of Divine Love’

[@Rafm1236]

Subhaanallaah!

[@oayysz8909]

Why don't liberal Muslims understand Islam is complete and does not need to be liberalised?

[@ef2883]

Muslims fell when they stopped practicing Islam properly. It's time to return to the roots, to reunite the Muslim countries - from their fractured state - into one strong nation!

[@craigthebrute3104]

Muslims fell when they abandoned the Quran & Sunnah

[@nasernazamyar9783]

Mustafa Akyol is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute’s Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity, where he focuses on the intersection of public policy, Islam, and modernity. Since 2013, he has also been a frequent opinion writer for The New York Times, “The Thinking Muslim,” a popular podcast, defined Akyol as “probably the most notable Muslim modernist and reformer.”

[@sociocynic]

Eid Mubarak Paul!

[@naafas1]

Since when do we reform Islaam to make Islaam palatable for those who struggle with the usool and the waajibaat. This is what the Christians and Jews have done and continue upon; they made religion submissive to them. At that point you can't call Islaam submission to the will of Allah ypon Tawheed and Sunnah, it would submission to the people who want to reform Islaam.

[@karimb972]

Wow! a real modern day self-assumed mutazila! No too many of those! May Allah reward him for the good he did and may He guide to the real path and truth of Sunni traditional islam and away from mutazilism and may Allah bless and reward Brother Ali, he is a true gem! Thanks for making this happen, Paul!

[@mostaq9779]

If majority audience is non Muslims then is it wise to hand on a platter issues that first need to be discussed and reach a consensus by the Muslim community first. Otherwise it becomes a weapon for non Muslims to add to their propaganda.

[@razmiihsan8897]

Wow. Now you have 2 guests at one time. 👍👍👍.

[@snekjuce]

Timestamps 0:00 Intro

[@mziad9405]

Holy Quran 48:18 ------------------ ۞ لَّقَدْ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِذْ يُبَايِعُونَكَ تَحْتَ الشَّجَرَةِ فَعَلِمَ مَا فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ فَأَنزَلَ السَّكِينَةَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَثَابَهُمْ فَتْحًا قَرِيبًا Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

[@user-k229]

The Muslim civilisation became too decadent and relaxed too much. They failed to continue training men and women in how to defend themselves. The main reason is that they abandoned the Quran. They failed to grasp a universal concept that Allah swt gives us in the Quran, i.e We have made you into nations that you may each, keep each other in check. Knowing this to be the case, it is paramount that a nation should not get themselves into a quagmire and forget that they could easily be made to be subordinate to another nation. The muslim civilisation also abandoned Deen Islam for Mazhab-Islam. They allowed their Priests and Mullahs to gain power and influence and slowly the Deen of Allah changed.

[@killerpie5981]

They abandoned jihad and started to fight over what they already had

[@Ashleii]

Excellent analysis. Have you heard of Dr Israar Ahmed? He was far ahead of his time in his analysis of this. By making Islam a madhab ( religion) it becomes controllable for political agendas, like greed or power etc.

[@user-k229]

@@Ashleii Hi. Dr Israr Ahmed was indeed a great person and his thoughts were ahead of his time. Thanks for your kind reply.

[@emranba-abbad8335]

Great discussion, please consider going a level higher. In the narrative of this descension, the weakness was attributed to flaws. Please also consider the loss of good factors which were once embraced. By studying good examples such as the very golden age of Andalusia, we can find what strengths they had and by losing these strengths, weakness spread. You may start by studying the effect of the following factors: 1. Fairness, 2. Diversity, and 3. Creating opportunities. Early Andalusians enjoyed fair and novel legislations and much effort was directed in creating new opportunities such as creating market for dried produce and advancing irrigation.

[@aRsH-aJ]

"Mongols.....Crusaders.....Colonization"

[@sloopycat1954]

There was a speech given in the British Parliament in the 1920's to make sureTurkeys learning institutions are kept at a lower level or to make sure there's less than average, something along those lines, I don't know if Turkey's learning institutions were to be targeted alone or others in other countries as well, my point is in my opinion Islam is not encouraged to thrive but the opposite by certain people.

[@shadowwalker3958]

Was expecting a podcast about how Muslim civ fall behind the west and how to overcome it , instead got modernist Vs Orthodox conversation.

[@leebarry5686]

Muslims’ Freedom is within the shariah , not absolute

[@ahmedomar9034]

Eid Mubarak to all of you.

[@althea_is_smokin_hot]

Sirs, it is very simple. Rejection of everything not in the holy book, and of course intellect and hard work.

[@ss193857]

Because Muslims reverted back to worshiping the golden calf, the religion of Mushriks in Mecca, in this case worshiping the imaginary figure they had built of Muhammad next to God

[@ameenmakanvand868]

It would be wonderful to bring Dr. Khaled Abu Fadl on the channel.

[@harunshields6844]

Let’s not make the same mistake as the early people of the book, and reform our religion for the gentilles. It was already made for them , the mission of Jesus (AS) was distorted by apostle Paul, in so that the message could reach an “urban” or “modern” Greek audience. This is evidenced by the obvious references to platonic philosophy and complicated koine Greek used in New Testament manuscripts. We don’t need to appeal , their is already many things in the tradition to aid us in living in the west

[@Sam66519]

i love mustafa aykol

[@homtanks7259]

I watched the debate between Abdullah al Andalusi and Mustafa Akyol, very interesting.

[@gedaymet]

Eid Al-Adha to Paul and Muslims around the world. Alhamdulillah.

[@marklamberth3102]

I don't know Abdullah bin Hamid, but I can tell you Mustafa Akyol's work is mainly flawed and seems to ponder to the western audience.

[@salahaldin447]

I don't think we should use wealth and possession worldly things as an example of progression of a civilization

[@mansooraqureshi2696]

Colonisation n collision of Al Saud n Abdul Ahad Wahab took Islamic open mindedness backward,every Conservative idea was associated with Islam. It trapped people in a box to think with emancipation. Things got politicised n took ideological shape., independent, intellectual thinking got curtailed.,hampering the overall creative process that is so very conducive for critical thinking.

[@abdulrahmanabdulghani8833]

Selamat HariRaya Aiduladha to all Muslim.Am from Kedah Malaysia