Why didn't the Federation build a New Starbase at Bajor?

[@loudelk99]

The Bajorians were concerned about anything that might resemble an occupation. A large well equipped station would give them a shiver. They wanted Federation assistance, what they didn't want was an overwhelming Federation presence.

[@nobodyimportant2470]

Exactly. The station belonged to Bajor and they asked the Federation for administrative assistance on it.

[@metal87power]

If ST's writing would be more realistic, Bajorian would had to accept the Federation's military presence like Europe had to accept USA bases.

[@robertt9342]

@@metal87power. Why though? Those are not parallels. The federation did not liberate bajor and they were only offering passive assistance, like when the us sends a training force over to a country to improve the military. Besides, DS9 acts as a port for starfleet ships.

[@christopherschofield6730]

Bingo.

[@spaceengineeringempire4086]

@@robertt9342 yes and it is also a logistics hub for the sector mainly to help develop the bajor system with federation aid.

[@MrRexrodney]

Because it was not a federation space station, it was owned by Bajor?

[@nickm9102]

On top of that they were hoping to retrofit the ore processing plant into a deuterium processor. Allowing the station to refuel arriving ships. Also don't forget the benefits of a cardassian appearance with federation tech, you are expecting one style of defense just to encounter another that seems to be very different than the expected.

[@Thrazkar]

Please bring back your book reviews. They were great!

[@scottcafarelli1940]

Awesome concept

[@reexaminedreads2161]

Thank you very much.

[@Shadx27]

I feel like after Bajor joined the Federation (occurs after DS9 series) it would make sense to move DS9 back to orbit of Bajor as it is symbolic and historical, and then build a new station at the wormhole entrance.

[@ouknow1446]

Agreed

[@gwgux]

But would the Bajorans been good with that? For a lot of them, that old station was a reminder of all the pain and suffering they went through during the Cardassian occupation. If I remember right, Kira was unhappy about getting posted to the station in addition to the Federation coming in.

[@Shadx27]

@@gwgux I think the recent goods would outweigh the past, and be a symbol of triumphing over hard times.

[@ouknow1446]

@@gwgux Spiritual people know the value of physical testaments of their faith, courage and struggle. Kira became spiritual during her service on DS9 as opposed to her time in the resistance and when she was first assigned to the station.

[@ericpowell4350]

Great points. DS9 could be for civilian use while the federation base for defense, R&D, and etc. Bajor could be a major regional commercial and political power.

[@brettshaff8772]

Bajor doesn't have the resources to build a large fleet or a starbase, as the planet had been looted and strip-mined by the Cardassians. So materials would have to be brought in from territories that hadn't been occupied. Bajor just needed time to create colonies that could provide it that materiel, if they were to remain independent, which was important to most of them.

[@alecbrinker7268]

I always thought the same thing. In fact I always thought what would happen would be this. DS9 was moved back to orbit and became a shrine/temple to the Emissary. The Federation in turn builds a large space station at the mouth of the wormhole with a Babylon 5 type mission. A place where the great powers; the Federation, the Dominion, the Klingons Empire, the Romulan Star Empire plus all the medium powers like the Ferengi Alliance, the Breen Confederacy, the Tholian Assembly, the Gorn Hegemony, what was left of the Cardassian Union, etc etc would all gather as a center of trade and diplomacy.

[@rickjohnston2667]

Have to be careful of copyright infringement on that one.

[@ralphsexton8531]

As an old Star Fleet Battles player, my first thought was bring in Mobile Field Bases (MFBs) to act as secondary defense points, and some Defense Satellites as well. These are not terribly strong, but do quickly add to capabilities on site.

[@donhearn2248]

SFB, and the Fasa stuff had much better story telling, that stuff had rock solid logical lore. By the time you get to DS9, Star Trek is all over the place. I could not finish the first season.....but a race asking to be protected, then bristling at military hardware that would keep the bad guys from reoccupying your home world does not make sense on the surface....what would make more sense, is the federation protecting military secrets by not placing large amounts of state of the art stuff in non secured space that the federation do not have a tactical advantage in. Also what makes sense is they just don't see Bajor as a priority. I have no idea though, I never watched the show past a few episodes.

[@metal87power]

Why not build a medium-sized space station? Those huge facilities are military elephants anyway. Or put a starship nearby for the time being? Federation's spaceships are massive and they can be used as mobile bases easily.

[@jonahfalcon1970]

And how long do you think that would take?

[@lancep2002]

While you’re on this topic why didn’t the Dominion build a station on their side of the wormhole? Or at least station a few ships there to keep watch?

[@88porpoise]

Why would they? They relied on powerful mobile fleets that could smash anything in the Gamma Quadrant. Remember, the Alliance only had a chance because the bulk of the Dominion forces were stopped by the Prophets. Then they didn't want to appear threatening as they used their political intrigues and infiltration to weaken the powers in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Part of that was appearing vulnerable to bait the Romulans and Cardassians into attacking them. And by the time the war gets going, the wormhole is closed (the cold war goes hot because of the Federation minefield).

[@martythemartian99]

As King Arthur's horse Patsy stated in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, "It's only a model."🤣

[@tarn1135]

Well according to Star Trek Picard season 3 a star base can absolutely be moved. Over a large distance at warp in fact. The museum star base was in fact the same one we saw in ST:3, 4, 6.

[@animateddepression]

They moved DS9 in a warp bubble at the beginning of the series.

[@SuperGamefreak18]

That happened during an era of peace so they had all the time in the world to move that station. As that’s a big project moving a starbase

[@Thurgosh_OG]

@@animateddepression DS9 was already fitted with limited warp and thruster tech, so they didn't add anything, just got it working after long disuse. In the old ST Tech books, Startbases could not self-propel once fully constructed (bits could be towed but moving the whole thing would require many Fleet tugs and careful monitoring of structural stresses, potentially at great cost should something go wrong.)

[@CaptainKwame1773]

The simple answer is in DS9: the Bajorans did not want an occupying force or the perception of one. It's important to remember that Bajor was in charge of the station, and Sisko's choices went that route as well as the Federation, which made his job so difficult in the early moments of the series. The show is very clear on this question. A good question would be about the other side of the station and the Dominion's ridiculous choice not to have a strong presence on the other side, perhaps with another station, once it was discovered. This would have been interesting in the story.

[@The280TimesTriviaChannel]

Unless they were cloaked, the external Phaser and Torpedo turrets / platforms would need to be closer in proximity to the station itself. Having them incircle the station at wide range, just makes it easy to pick them off one by one. Having them semi clustered at various points within the stations shield bubble gives them double shielding protection as well and would make any enemy force think hard before attacking. If they were cloaked, then yes, having them further out could be more effective because you'd be creating a kill zone, where any enemy ship which comes within range of the station is automatically targeted from at least two reversed vectors (dorsal ventral, fore / aft ect) preventing them from dumping all shield power into a single region and muscling their way through.

[@imofage3947]

I believe your shield configuration dilemma is a part of ship defense strategy in ST lore. More aggressive factions like the Klingons are said to tend to favor the fore, port, and starboard shields at the expense of the aft, ventral, and dorsal. They like to face the enemy and fight head on. More defensive factions like the Federation are said to tend to favor a more balanced shield configuration.

[@andrewf3505]

During the Dominion War, Star Fleet sent its older more expendable star ships into battle first so they could justify building new ships. We lost 3 Obirth class star ships, let’s replace them with 3 intrepid class ships. Star Fleet to avoid the appearance of having a massive buildup of forces near the Cardasian border could have decommissioned a dozen older starships and sold them to the Bajorin Militia, who could then outfit the ships however they like and establish a strong defence force. Then Bajor use there new defence force to re-enforced DS9

[@stepal6958]

This doesn't really make sense though. You're claiming they would sacrifice entire crews on older ships as an excuse to build new ones. They were at war so it's not like they would need that excuse for starters. They could just replace the ships with newer ones. It's not like the population of the Federation, facing an existential threat, is going to deny Starfleet the ships to fight it. Besides the value of the crew alone, people who had years of training and experence, is probably greater than the value of a ship. Second, Bajor was never a part of the war. So the idea of sending them old ships so they could hold off the Dominion doesn't make sense either. A few old ships would not have made the difference in the first battle of DS9 and then Bajor would have broken the non-aggression pact and been invaded by the Dominion. Something Sisko wanted to avoid and the reason he told them not to join the Federation earlier, when he was having visions of the future. Starfleet could have sent ships themselves but chose to use those ships to destroy the Dominion shipyards instead. Even if Bajor had been in the war, giving them old ships without the trained and experienced crews to operate them would just be worse than Starfleet keeping the ships and using them themselves. And after DS9 was retaken there were Federation/Klingon and later Romulan ships stationed there anyway so it wouldn't have helped much then either.

[@andrewf3505]

@@stepal6958 respectfully the video we are commenting on at the 6 minute mark stated that star fleet at the beginning of the war sent older models star ships ( Galaxy, Ambassador, Miranda and Excelsior class). My original comment was more Amed at the hypothetical scenario proposed at 7:30 Sorry this is going to be a long example of what I’m talking about, but it should help make my point. Let’s use an example of local police department. A police department only has so many cars in service. They generally don’t replace a car until they loose a car (be it ageing out, or is damaged beyond repair). Extending this scenario out they have 3 - 2000s crown Victoria, and 2 - 2010 impalas, and 1 - 2015 explorer. As the crown Vic’s get older they will be the first ones to hit end of life cycle. Say one blows a transmission, the police will replace that car with the latest model 2024 Explorer. The next crown Vic is in an accident, they again replace it with the newest model Explorer. Then Imagine a riot breaks out and the people are destroying down town. The police drive the last crown Vic into the rioting area and abandon it with lights on. Now the people have a police car to destroy and stop destroying the local shops and private property along Main Street. Using this approach they have eliminated or retire all their old car and replaced them with new top of the line cars while maintaining their budget for their fleet. If they had purchased those 3 new Explorers before they lost the 3 crown Vic’s they would have had a higher cost of maintaining/ insuring them to have them sit around waiting to be used. Most budgeting communities won’t approve a capital expense of buying vehicles unless they absolutely have to. Even though the Federation doesn’t use currency Star Fleet still must use some kind of resource management. It doesn’t make sense to grow your fleet from 500 ships to 700 ships if you don’t have the manpower to operate them. In the grand scheme of things star fleet is no different from the other powers in the galaxy. They want you to think they care about their people but only to a point. Their track record isn’t always so good. The colony’s in the demilitarized zone (DS9), Parnassian Bata (S.N.W) and every time they sent a star fleet officer to work on a Obirth class starship (LOL). There was no care for those federation citizens lives. As for the scenario I was referring to takes place in 2371 before the Dominion war starts at the point Star fleet started to install new weapons on DS9. At that point there was still a strong relationship with the federation and an intent to join as full members. The course of history could still play out the same way with Bajor still signing a non aggression pact with the Dominion and Star Fleet still withdrew from Bajor. From the perspective of 2371 the Federation and Bajor had no idea what to expect from a posable Dominion attack. I believe selling older Star Ships to Bajor would have been a good idea. This would have given the Bajoran Militia the opportunity to better defend its system and to aid in the defence of DS9 which is ultimately their property. At the time all the Militia had was a handful of sub light fighters. Bajor didn’t have the resources to build its own star ships at that time. This would also help to help take political pressure off the federation as THEY wouldn’t be the ones having a military buildup along the Cardassian / Tzenkethi border. Bajor has the right to defend its system and most powers would understand. I have to say this is a fun thought experiment to debate…

[@88porpoise]

​@@andrewf3505First, Bajor chose to be neutral during at the beginning of the war. Hence Kira remaining on DS9 during the occupation by the Dominion. So giving them some ships wouldn't change anything around DS9 and Bajor. Second, that assumes the Bajoran militia had the experience and manpower and desire to operate such vessels in useful numbers. If they needed Federation to operate DS9, they probably also aren't well positioned to operate a fleet of starships.

[@andrewf3505]

@@88porpoise true Bajor did sign a non aggression pact with the Dominion just after the beginning of the war in 2373. This scenario takes place in 2371, before the war started. The dominion was a threat from the Gama Quadrant and Cardasia was the primary concern for Bajor. Giving/ selling the ships to Bajor in that timeframe would have helped stimulate the Bajoran rebuilding efforts. The closest real life comparison would be Afghanistan. After the ruling government was toppled, the occupying forces helped to rebuild the government and military forces. (It didn’t last unfortunately due to political decisions) Providing Bajor the ships would allow them to police their own space rather then relying on the federation. As Bajor was stabilizing they would become better candidates to join the federation. When the war broke out, even if they still sign the non aggression pact, they would still be able to keep their ships when the Dominion move against the station. They wouldn’t be able to engage in the defence of the station at that point but they could have been able to provide evacuation services for everyone on DS9 when star fleet finished arming the mine field. Dominion/Cardasian ships could not fire on any ships flying the Bajoran flag due to the nonaggression pact they signed. As for the manpower issue, there were a lot of Bajorans who could use the opportunity for gainful employment. It would be a job creation push. “Do your part, Join the Militia”

[@88porpoise]

@@andrewf3505 That still assumes they are willing and able to operate such vessels. Given their inability to operate DS9, that is far from a given.

[@RodneyGlasbergen]

A space dock station and a Starbase are not the same thing. A space dock can be a starbase, but starbases have also been built on planets (see TOS). DS9 could be a starbase or part of a larger collection of facilities comprising a starbase

[@toddfraser3353]

The extra defense wasn't needed after Sisko negotiated with the Prophets to blockade the wormhole. Once that tactical advantage of getting Gamma Troops into the war was gone, and Dukat was no longer in power (who wanted DS9 for ego reasons) there was little advantage to have DS9 as a immediate target, and the non-aggression treaty with Bajore was still in play, and breaking it would show to other allies that they may not be trustworthy, before their main objectives are met. The Federation really needed it more than the Dominion for the remainder of the war, so excessive defense wasn't as necessary

[@Clenched.Cheeks]

Because the DS9 model was distinct and had a unique character of it's own. From a storyline perspective, starting with a broken down, crippled ore processing centre almost gives the station a character arc as it becomes a trade hub and then a battle ready station.

[@manjackson2772]

Homeworld: Cataclysm is one of my favourite strategy game stories because it does a similar thing. It was a few years after DS9 finished; maybe some inspiration there?

[@andrewf3505]

Another big concern I have is they are playing a very reactive game. They always seam to wait for a large force to come through the wormhole before they respond. Establish an installation on the Gama side of the wormhole… control both sides! It like putting a base on one end of the river and saying you control the whole river…

[@indyminded5473]

Who knows. Perhaps the Federation with partnership with Bajorans' did build a Federation station, but in orbit of Bajor with DS9 simply upgraded and reinforced at the wormhole.

[@ChrisKChastain]

Could have towed the other Cardasian station to sit beside DS9, two stations guarding the gate. They would have been of similar design so parts would have been easier, it would have added more ports for ships, more gunports for defense and would have been a more strategic position for the federation.

[@smf5576]

How close do you think the other station was? It was light years away. It's not like the station could be towed at warp.

[@JaredJanhsen]

In one of the Post Season 7 novels, Empok-Nor did wind up getting towed to DS9 for a large scale salvage operation. However, it was more to be a parts-donor than a sister-station.

[@Thurgosh_OG]

@@smf5576 DS9 had limited warp capability, why would 'Empok Nor' be different?

[@smf5576]

@@Thurgosh_OG How do you figure that DS9 can go to warp? It doesn't have a warp drive, only thrusters.

[@girlgarde]

Quick note, the stellar map you showed that displayed the borders of the different powers is wrong. The Cardassians have their territory 'West' of the Federation while the Klingons have theirs 'east' of the Federation so they don't share a common border. It's why the Klingons early in 2372 had to stop off at DS9 before launching their surprise invasion of Cardassian space, to rest and refuel.

[@marckrieger3277]

I was wondering why starfleet didn't put an admiral in charge of guarding the wormhole and engaging in diplomacy with the races in the gamma quadrant.

[@Brasswatchman]

Considering how many Starfleet admirals jump the shark, would *you* trust any of them with that job? 😁

[@mattphoenix4702]

The Dominion made it abundantly clear they had NO tolerance for ANYONE to be in their territory without prior approval. They had NO desire to give such approval. While it was unintentional, the initial hostility between the Dominion and Federation was caused by The Federation letting curiosity outpace diplomacy. That’s not an easy first impression to get over if you are a paranoid, militant society that thinks the galaxy is out to get them.

[@Gdsm9]

I've often tried to imagine what else Starfleet may have been able to do to make life easier on DS9... to "Federationalize" the station, as it were. First, I think a complete replacement of the station's computer core with one from say, a Galaxy-class ship. Ablative armour and quantum torpedoes would also have been obvious choices, as they featured heavily in this show. I've also often thought (and wished someone with substantially more artistic ability than I have would design) about how the station would look both inside and out, once the SF overhaul were done. Colour palettes, lighting highlights, etc. On the defensiveness of the station, this has bugged me for a while as well. See, the shape and layout of DS9 allows for practically all weapons to have full range of fire on any target anywhere near the station. Because of the wheeled/spoked pattern, there's a lot of empty space and a phaser on one side of DS9 can still hit a target on the opposite side. A Spacedock-style station is such a massive bulk, that you could only ever get about 1/3 of the weapons firing in one direction at any time. That's a significant tactical loss, percentage-wise. The counter-point to that is that arguably, a spacedock-style station could take a lot more damage before it's destroyed... but here again, the point of a battle is more often to capture the station and not destroy it, so you'd only need your fleet to take out that approximate 1/3 of the facing side. Speaking of weapons, though, as I understand it, Spacedock has no weapons on it at all, so Starfleet would need to come up with something completely new for this purpose.

[@KamenRiderGumo]

There's a reason why I like to pull out the DS9 model sometimes when I play Attack Wing. It doesn't have a lot of range, but that 360-degree firing arc can be devastating with the right weaponry cards.

[@sakar181]

Im your 600th sub. Hope to see you again.

[@HEWOLF58]

A couple ideas for the defense. 1st upgrade the reactors to warp cores. would increase the defensive/offensive power of the ship. ablative armor on the station as well so it can take more damage if the shields go down. finally. a marine regiment to defend against borders.

[@imofage3947]

Any augmentation to the power grid would be major surgery on the station. And bolting on that much ablative armor would also be a major undertaking. But the marine regiment is a great idea. The station does get boarded several notable times.

[@HEWOLF58]

I was thinking of putting the armor over key locations, sorry thought I had put that in the original post

[@imofage3947]

@@HEWOLF58 Makes sense. It always bugged me that the station fusion reactors are all in that over-exposed lower half of the central core. Particularly since weapons fire is known to bleed through shielding rather than be completely blocked by it. On the other hand, Nor-Class orbital ore processing stations were never designed for a military fortress role. Most of the Docking Ring and Pylons are nearly irrelevant from a structural integrity stand point. The Habitat Ring is important because it's where people live, but it's not a major target save for the weapon emplacements and shield generators on it.

[@cgi2002]

Remove the ore processing systems, use the empty space to fit additional reactors, do not link them to the main stations systems however. Have them directly power their own dedicated sheilds and weapons systems which can be linked to by using the ore feeds. This free's up the stations reactors to increase the sheild and weapons strength in sections of the station that are not close to ore processing. Alternatively build an additional inner ring as an independent sub-station, it can be fitted with more sheilds, weapons, etc and run an independent power system. You can also fit it with hangars for more runnabout style ships, they are exceptionally powerful for their size. Alternatively if you want to be really cheap, fly out to empok nor and tow it back (its less than 3 LY away, a couple of larger ships could have towed it back and kept it intact fairly easily), free 2nd station once you repair and upgrade it.

[@Grizabeebles]

Starfleet's military doctrine immediately prior to the Dominion War was hamstrung by the Khitomer Accords. On paper every Starfleet vessel prior to the Defiant-class was a scientific research vessel or armed merchantman. Starbases were likewise limited in their defensive armament as Starfleet could not possess fortified military bases. Without a professional warrior class, Klingon warriors could not gain honour by attacking the Federation but they *could* gain honour "defending a nation of children" against outside threats. Thus was peace maintained for over a century. In order to maintain the facade Federation ships could not be as heavily armed with phasers and disruptors as equivalent Klingon military vessels nor carry any physical armour. Nor were Starfleet ships arranged into a formal order of battle. If a battle broke out, all available ships in the area were scrambled to intercept the enemy force and destroy it *in space.* All ground defense other than the evacuation of Federation personnel was/is apparently the responsibility of each member world. This had apparently always worked good enough all the way from the end of the Kirk era through the Cardassian Wars up until the battle of Wolf 359. All of this being said, as a Cardassian-built station under Bajoan control, Terok'nor was essentially a loophole in the Khitomer treaty. Starfleet could supply the Bajorans with weapons and defenses far beyond what Starfleet itself could reasonably be allowed to build, and then "lease" the station from the Bajorans prior to full Bajoran membership in the Federation and then grandfather the station in "as is" at a later date. The Dominion War truly did change everything.

[@SuStel]

0:37 I don't know if they ever use the word "protectorate," but Bajor is not a protectorate of the Federation. A protectorate governs its own internal affairs while recognizing the suzerainty of another state. Bajor is what is known as a "protected state." It is under the Federation's protection, but it remains sovereign.

[@Timberjac]

Starfleet was researching and building new ships and new classes with more and more powerful weapons, first to counter the Borg threat and later, temporarily, the Klingon, the ubiquitous Cardassian, and finally that of the Dominion itself Resources, even in Star Trek, have a limit And all this without ignoring the political considerations that Bajor was not part of the Federation, which is capital, because I can't imagine the face of the Starfleet chiefs if Bajor reaches an agreement with others and they must leave their station as the Cardassians should have left theirs

[@Finn-OleHertz]

I have written a fanfic a few years ago where a starfleet cadet visited DS9. I thought the same thing and came up with the conclusion, that although orignially TerokNor was a prisoncamp, after the liberation of Bajor, over the years, it became a symbol of hope and embracing the future while not forgetting the past, as it was the frontline againt the dominion and the watchtower over the wormhole. That's why, although Bajor joined the Federation a few years after the war, the Bajorans wanted to keep DS9 and not getting a "modern" starbase, a wish both Starfleet and the Federation respectfully fulfiled. Beacuse the Station transferred into a symbol of resurrection and triumph over the past.

[@vladdracula5851]

I would have sent a fleet of engineer Starships to tow the abandoned Kardashian station that looked exactly like Deep Space Nine would have towed it back to Deep Space Nine would have either completely overhauled and retrofitted it and sent it to bonjour or I would have grafted the superstructure of the station on to Deep Space Nine and extended it and doubled its size

[@aaronschaefer4167]

Came here to say the same thing! Empok Nor! Make that the battle station and keep deep space nine as the starship\diplomatic station.

[@Thurgosh_OG]

Kardashians are mostly made of plastic and Earthbound. I think you mean Cardassian.

[@danielperoverde1998]

The Star Trek Armada games taught us how important Phasor and Torpedo Platforms/Turrets are around a wormhole :D

[@MilkyMP]

They did in the books

[@shanavalkyria3438]

Yea i have those books, it was really cool

[@BGRANT777X]

yeah but.... those don't count at worst and are beta canon at best.

[@filmmusicguy26]

I've often wondered this myself. I had the thought a couple of weeks ago that maybe they could have put Empok Nor in orbit of Bajor, a second space station just like DS9 to coordinate relief efforts. They could have helped the Bajorans build a starfleet of their own until they were ready to join the Federation and also the could provide medical and relief assistance to the planet instead of having to travel all the way to DS9. It would have a number of uses. The only problem is getting Empok Nor to Bajor since it is 3 light years away. It would probably have to be dismantled and towed which would have taken a lot of manpower.

[@xxsw4yxx]

Or they could add a shit ton of structrual integrity field generators and request two or three galaxy class or nebula class ships to tow the station at warp 6.

[@filmmusicguy26]

@@xxsw4yxx possibly. That would be something to see on screen though.

[@Uzarran]

If memory serves, in one of the Starfleet Corps of Engineers books they did tow Empok Nor to Bajor after the war. Though, it was more so they could use it as an easy source for spare parts.

[@sumdolt8948]

The federation wanted bajor to join the federation. Giving bajor the ability to stand on their own is contrary to that desire.

[@hackman669]

Great idea! Having two stations equals twice the power and a star fleet ti boot. 😅

[@HawkGTboy]

Have you seen how hard it is to get a building Permit from the Bajoran government? Much easier to rehab the existing station.

[@hackman669]

Sounds like English beuracrasy. 😅

[@animateddepression]

Let the First Minister give you a rub-down with spice oil and you can build anything you want

[@MM22966]

Ngl, guy sounds like a more erudite Grand Nagus Zek.

[@rickjohnston2667]

I just wanted to say that your analysis of both the political and engineering aspects of the situation were spot on, and I totally agree with your assessment.

[@Night-Mayor]

I have always wanted a series about a fully functional federation star base. Once usually run by the defunct rank of Commodore. I guess today it would be a fleet captain. A higher rank for a Star Base to put all visiting starships captains in check. Could you see Fleet Captain Benjamin Sisko in charge of a federation behemoth of a station.

[@charleslennonbaker]

Thanks for the video. I like all of your suggestions regarding increased security and defense of the station. Still, I have to point out that any off-station defensive designated assets, whether platforms or attack fighters, would be perceived by everyone as a provocation. I thought years ago the Federation should lease their older ships to the Bajorans. Think of it as "lend-lease." Any concerns or official complaints that would be levied against Star Fleet for beefing up the station's offensive capabilities would be moot. The Bajorans would be the operators of said vessels. If those 'old' ships happen to be upgraded, oh well. The Bajorans do not have any plans to conquer anyone. Their history has yet to show that. Upgrading their "home guard" would be sensible and necessary. Even the other three major powers would agree to that, with few reservations. The Klingons would have no reservations; in fact, they would insist on participating in such planning. The thought of planning a defense against overwhelming odds would have them drooling. The Romulans would be cautious in their approval. Still, they would insist on observers/spies through the planning and initial operation phases but would have been excluded from participating in the full-scale implementation. The Bajorans would be aware of this Romulan duplicity; they haven't forgotten Romulan treachery during the war. The Bajorans see the entire concept as an opportunity to spy on the Romulans for their own security, which they pitch to and ask for guidance from Star Fleet intelligence (in reality Section 31). The Bajorans know 31 will use this as an opportunity on their end. During the war they were privy to the lengths Section 31 would go to 'win.' In fact, the Bajorans are more concerned about Section 31 than the Romulans. For the Bajorans, it's a double-blind operation. Get both parties to watch each other while they watch them. After all, both governments believe the Bajorans are only onery, old-fashioned, superstitious, farmers and free minded artists. They aren't capable of being devious (like them.) The Cardasians will remain somewhat aloof. Officially pestering Star Fleet and the Bajorans with their promise they won't launch "retribution squads" against a weakened Cardassia. But in reality, the Cardassian Resistance, now rebuilt and governoring the Union, are still operating somewhat in the shadows, and have been in backdoor talks with the Bajorans. They, too, are concerned about Section 31, and both parties are slyly observing the ins and outs of that shadowy genocidal 'Terran" organization. So far, they are at a loss to counter Section 31's machinations if their worlds are threatened, but "Counselor Garak" may have an idea. Something he secretly hopes will work but at the cost of a friendship, an adopted family, and his soul. Still, this doesn't mean DS9 couldn't get upgrades or a total overhaul. And if that overhaul means a larger powerplant, better armor, shield, and weapons, so be it. Hell, why not add some extra decks while we are at it! Afterall, "These are the times that try men[s] souls." As long as those upgrades are integral to the station, nondeployable combat-designated assets such as strike fighters and/or weapons platforms, there will no need to protest. As for those weapons platforms, I would substitute them with sensor platforms that can be used as counter-sensor platforms when needed. Without long-range tracking, any ship/fleet foolish enough to attack the station would have to close into the "kill zone." If not stopped by the Bajoran Home Guard first. If not, the Home Guard could attack that foolsi enemy fleet from behind. Acting as a cavalry unit. For attack fighters, I would triple the usual complement of runabouts. But instead of all of them being housed "on station," I would set up Landing Zones throughout the system that can facilitate repairs and arm/re-arm if the need arises. These "away stations" could also act as aux command/flight stations if or when the station is compromised. They would be officially called "Transit Centers."

[@45580677]

I wonder if some of your ideas used by the mirror Terran Rebellion I wonder post Kelvin Timeline Starfleet after Vulcan destroyed

[@Brasswatchman]

Here's a thought: what if the Federation was ceded the opposite end of the wormhole in the Gamma Quadrant as part of the peace treaty ending the Dominion War? Establishing a heavily-armed starbase there would bypass the need for a heavier presence in Bajoran space (and all the problems that might result.) Rather than a chokepoint, DS9 then becomes just a sleepy waypoint for the other starbase -- which would match up well with the station's rather lackadaisical appearance in Lower Decks.

[@topnotch97]

DS9 also served as a temporary UFP outpost, but after the war I think they should have build an outpost on Bajor. An actual Federation outpost on Bajor would be more appropriate, DS9 would be responsible to monitor wormhole activity. I'm not sure about Cardassia, but unless they joined the federation, then a starbase in cardassian space would be appropriate.

[@MatthewSP117]

The idea for making the defenses of the DS9 would be alittle out there but for my hypothetical is to first fully scan the station from computer system to metal material get a full 100% scan of the entire station even with the blue prints then outside of the self cloaked replicating mines for the worm hole and torpedo enplacements consider a upgraded reactors and shields for the station or a powerful barrier that can be used to take all matter of weapons from torpedos phazers and deflectors with the station not even taking a single hit and design a means for the station to take the enemies own weapons like phasers and redirect them back and maybe a powdered magnetic substance like material to interfere with enemy torpedos making them explode upon entering the substance along with fighter squadron wings and maybe 2 or 3 war ships.

[@shanavalkyria3438]

Honestly to me, Ds9 is far more intimidating looking then any federation station I have seen. Could be the bajor answer did not want a new statation as last time someone built one...... a question I have had is why did the dominion not put a starbase on their end if the wormhole early on

[@Zeithri]

I honestly disagree, but then again I often visit DS9 in Star Trek Online. A Federation Starbase is formidable to try to attack, DS9 is a beautiful one but I always considered it more a well-armed trading hub. Btw I'm not shitting on DS9, I love that station and show to bits.

[@shanavalkyria3438]

@@Zeithri it's all good, I have never played STO so never explored them that way but in the tv series and expanded universe books they don't seem to come out well much of the time but we also only see them at dramatic times. It may also be that i have seen ds9 fight not so much federation starbases and that the camera work makes ds9 look much larger then a fed starbase. It does make sense though as a starbase is built for combat instead off slave labor ore mining. their any good STO scenes of a fed starbase really going at it with a fleet?

[@adamlytle2615]

It's been a while since I watched DS9, but I kind of recall Bajor not joining the Federation at the end of the series. I don't know what happened in the books after that... if this was just a delay before eventually joining or if Bajor would opt to remain independent as a more politically neutral caretaker of the wormhole. If the former, a Starfleet/Federation built station replacing DS9 would probably happen pretty shortly after they joined. If the latter, a Bajoran built replacement station would probably be a while in the making.

[@abundantabsurdity7085]

The entire series of DS9 took place OUTSIDE of Federation space (except for the few episodes on earth and in that space station during the war). Bajor never joined the Federation during the run of DS9. IN FACT, Sisko's mission from Starfleet as stated by Captain Picard in the very first episode was to "do everything short of violating the Prime Directive to ensure that they are [ready to join the Federation]." So my question is this: why would Starfleet build a space station in space that doesn't belong to them?

[@patrickradcliffe3837]

9:15 fighters are not that useful as a offensive unit, they would be better served as the long distance eyes of the station patrolling the Bajorian system for incoming threats. If I was tasked with upgrading DS9 I would most definitely augment it power production with a matter antimatter reactor for power giving enough power margin to put up effective defensives against incoming fleet size attacks.

[@selvahechicera4292]

The thing to do would be to build a structure around the worm hole with a shutter that could cl9ose literally AT the event horizon. It could have some def3nsaive weapons but would not need to be heavily armed so much as heavily shielded. The closing aperture could even be a force shield instead of some sort of physical obstruction. The point is that, when closed, it would act like the iris over the Star Gate in Cheyenne mountain. Since comms work through the wormhole faster than travel through it... I remember it working that way, apologies if I'm misremembering,,, one could station a basically permanently cloaked Klingon vessel at the other end and warn of any aggressors coming through with enough time to close the aperture. Eventually one could build a similar st4ructure on the other end and control the entire thing, though the structure on the other end would want a LOT of defenses against Dominion attacks. I'd still want to keep the permanently cloaked vessel present, just to make sure.

[@imofage3947]

You've been watching too much Stargate. In Trek, wormholes do not have an event horizon, it's more of a literal tunnel. Ships can stop, reverse, even maneuver inside. Putting a physical barrier at one end would be easily detected and the collision avoided by simply stopping. Any other ships behind the lead ship would be promptly signaled to stop. Then everyone would reverse course in a safe and orderly fashion.

[@selvahechicera4292]

@@imofage3947 Hmm... Lemme work on that a bit.

[@saquist]

While Fans regard the Steamrunner, Akira, Sabre and Norway as New Michael Okuda creator of the Registry in TNG says these shops were designed and built before Galaxy Class. Nor are they powerful. All these ships have 3 or less phasers and all but one lacks torpedo tubes of any kind. They are under armed

[@Thrazkar]

Why not create a video about the reasons for DS9's destruction and the features on the new station depicted in the post finale novels?

[@reexaminedreads2161]

I actually wanted to take it from the perspective of just the show. Don't get me wrong, I like many of the novels, but in the past, novels have been know to contradict each other with storylines the more time goes on.

[@FijneWIET]

@@reexaminedreads2161 so do tv shows (depiction of klingons, their behavior and appearance, same goes for Ferengi).

[@danivarius]

According to novels canon, the original DS9 was destroyed after Bajor joined the federation, and a new one was built by Starfleet.

[@marne78]

Why didn't the Cardassian's not leave everything in place at Terok Nor? Leaving majority of the equipment during the USA pullout of Afghanistan worked out great. 🙃

[@stephanbergmann8373]

That‘s not what happened. The US left their equipment to the forces of the democratically elected regime in Kabul. The dudes that we had trained and that had fought by our side for years.

[@crownprincesebastianjohano7069]

@@stephanbergmann8373 The Trump Administration not only negotiated and implemented the shitty Doha Accords, but knee-capped the Kabul Government intentionally, and knowing that Government was weak kept selling them weapons until is last day in Office. Trump also implemented an un-workable withdrawal schedule knowing it would be a disaster. So, anyone that keeps peddling that Fox News talking point is at best misinformed, and at best, a jackass. And that doesn't even cover all the Terps left there because Trump ordered the State Department to stop processing their paperwork. Scum.

[@DeadCat-42]

Bushes useless wars just added to the Reaganomic debt and Inflation.

[@hackman669]

​@@stephanbergmann8373Funny, US gave a boat load of weapons to a weak and unstable ally. Might as well have handed it over to the enemy free if charge.😅

[@stephanbergmann8373]

@@hackman669 We had trained and equipped these people for 10+ years. It’s not like Biden suddenly handed them a buttload of weapons before flying off.

[@SteveDorsett]

Why does this map have the Cardassian Union and Klingon Empire next to each other? They are opposite ends of the Federation. The Klingon & Romulan Empires are in the Beta Quadrant, while the Cardassian Union is at the far end of the Federation territory in the Alpha Quadrant.

[@jonahfalcon1970]

Time. Resources. Do you think they could clap their hands and materialize a space station out of thin air?

[@thunderrobots1980s]

an embassy on bajor could house a massive fleet of small fighter crafts

[@edc8909]

Because Star Fleet was a guess. Bajor didn't want any permanent present in their space.

[@ouknow1446]

They were petitioning to join and as a condition a permanent base seems reasonable.

[@edc8909]

Not necessarily. Bajor could have their own space station. Federation just have the resources at this time.

[@ouknow1446]

@@edc8909 Bajor was on welfare into the foreseeable future and turned away refugees who claimed their planet was also their homeland out of fear of not enough resources. A low point in its history.

[@88porpoise]

​@@ouknow1446Bajor joining the Federation was far from a certainty. There were significant factions on Bajor that opposed Federation membership, viewing it as replacing one occupier with another. And, with the Provisional Government always in a very precarious position, giving the Federation a large military facility in Bajoran space may well have resulted in a collapse of the government and Bajor going a new direction.

[@ouknow1446]

@@88porpoise Doubtful. Bajorans see the necessity of having a buffer between them and other species not so respectful of their autonomy. The lesser of evils is what the Federation is to them.

[@MIMALECKIPL]

They could've built a smaller starbase. Not necessarily a spacedock type.

[@robertt9342]

So something less functional than DS9

[@JCG52577]

Why would they when there’s already a perfectly usable facility already there?

[@jayblakely]

1. "A siege mentality is ultimately self defeating" Worf - so a fleet of ships tied to the station would have been a limiting move, and tied up a primary fleet for protracted periods of time. 2. I like the idea of defensive platforms, but remember those are shown as easily corruptible technologies. 3. the federation doesn't use mines except for the most dire of circumstances, and even the ones they used were mostly of Klingon design. 4. Fighter craft like the ones B5 uses are not heavily utilized in the startrek world, they exist, and DS9 would have been a good use case - but they would have needed to be warp capable to be able to support Bajor. 5. This analysis completely ignores the permanent mooring of the Defiant (s) and the natural amount of traffic around the station during the later stages of the series, both points negate the majority of the structural tactical issues addressed.

[@WUZLE]

Because they already had one in the form of DS9?

[@gd.ritter]

why not also review what the federation actually did to strengthen it? New software and hardware integrations to leverage existing systems (such as they were) into working alongside more advanced Starfleet tech that was brought in to replace or augment systems that needed it. new power generation to increase energy availability which powered new shields and a massive array of new phaser and photon turrets installed on the system.

[@gwgux]

Speaking of fighters, this isn't something Star Fleet is known to rely on all that much. When they wanted something smaller and more agile, they would rather rely on something like the Defiant than small fighters. As such, what fighters Star Fleet has probably wouldn't amount to anything significant.

[@ThomasMcQueen-j5u]

We know that DS9 was still in service just after the Dominion War but we don't know, really, what happens after that except for fanfiction I always wondered what happened next Kira became the commanding officer and, presumably, became a full colonel (the Army/Marine/Air Force equivalent of a captain) LT. JG Nog became her assistant Dr. Bashir and Ezri Dax became a romantic couple and stayed on DS9 O'Brien and his family moved to Earth where he became a teacher at Starfleet Academy teaching engineering Federation ambassador Worf and Chancellor Martok went to Quonus Grand Nagus Rom and Leeta left for Ferenginar Quark stayed on DS9 and, as Lower Decks says, he opened up franchises of a couple of dozen other Quark's around the Federation And Odo went to join The Great Link in order to bring peace. According to Picard, it didn't last But what happened after that at DS9? No one knows

[@chadnine3432]

A minefield around a station that's got commerical interests probably would be a bad idea.

[@Michael-ki8yf]

Thy coud Transfer Empok Nor to the Wormhole too. Tan thy had "Toor`s twin`s" ("hunt for red oktober is greeting") to secure the Wormehole... With the much more Space of the second Station thy could implementet one of the 2 Industrial Replicators they get from the Federation on this second Station and begin thare to Bild a shipyard, like the rebals in the "Mirror universe" did... and start to bild an "Bajoran short attack cruser" developed with Bajoran and Federation technic. Implementing mines and platvorm defense too, compleetet the defense.

[@JohnSmith-ib2zk]

great video

[@reexaminedreads2161]

Thank you Mr. Smith.

[@markjakker2091]

I think the Bajorans declined cooperation with StarFleet and were subsequently conquered by the Cardadsisns. If not by Cardassia then some other power. Bajorans were light of military for having such an asset.

[@sockoclaw]

Wait…are you suggesting that the a Galaxy Class design was “old” by the Dominion War? The class was still in full production at the time, the very, very oldest Galaxies would have been pushing like a decade, but newer ships like the Venture would have been 2-3 years old? I’m not really sure why fans treat federation ships like cellphones. A Klingon Vorcha was about 25 years old by the war and the BoO design is more than a century old. We even see K’Tinga ships from the 23rd century. The Romulan D’Deridix seems to be significantly older than the GC, as does the Galor. Even the Ambassador design would really only be entertaining middle age by Trek standards.

[@matthewcaughey8898]

You forgot to add the most powerful shield generators you could get and relocate the stations vital points behind those massively overpowered shield generators. This combined with your suggestion means DS9 is going to be a very costly battle

[@jon9550]

Bajor was not part of the Federation and didn't give their permission to build a starbase there. Bajor was scared of exchanging one occupying force with another. Even inviting the Federation in to help Bajor rebuild and become self-sufficient was a controversial decision.

[@robertpruitt4357]

DS9 was a ghetto in space... sort of an intergalactic Chicago, every character was ethnic all seven seasons with a few exceptions... as a ghetto it was an example of how humans slowly evolve sociologically.

[@SuStel]

3:10 That's not a starbase; that's a spacedock. You might have a starbase on a spacedock, but you can also have starbases on planets or smaller stations.

[@michaelbruner3511]

Because PLOT

[@QUICKBOOKS1]

Short & Sweet Answer! That took less than 10 Seconds to type, right? Not 10 Minutes to explain.

[@clasicradiolover]

Because the Cardasian station gave better story lines?

[@guessmyhandle]

A starbase is not a military base, it's a "drydock". This is star trek tech, it's only a matter of cubic footage and the station had plenty for upgrades.

[@axepagode4321]

Why would you build a new star base if you have a planet? Star bases are for regions that are absent places where people can congregate.

[@animateddepression]

Drag Empok Nor over and place it on the Gamma side of the wormhole

[@timbert4672]

If they can make self replicating mines, why not self replicating drones? Imagine thousands of phaser drones going after enemies which both they and the station can make more of on the go. They wouldn't have much power compared to a ship but I'm thinking of the bee sting analogy, one may be an annoyance but a hundred of them can kill you.

[@michaelcroff7097]

Keeping the Bajorans a weak power was smart. There was no genocide against them, though to be fair that was never Cardassia’s intention. And since Bajor’s resources were already depleted, they were more like contraband than prisoners of war.

[@SiXiam]

Practically they did totally redo DS9 enhancing every system and turning it into a battlestation with 5000 photon torpedoes!

[@linz8291]

1) lack of Andromeda, Orion, Atlas, M103, Thuban, Sirius, Dubhe, Faulmout, and the other galactic council memberships; 2) lack of United federation of planet annual space budget; …

[@sumdolt8948]

Its in bajoran space. Building a federation space station would not be possible as bajor could demand star fleet to withdraw at any time. Once bajor was a actual member of the federation that would happen. But prior to that... Impossible.

[@20thcenturytunes]

I'll speak hypothetical, since the Federation was invited in, they should have stripped the station of anything that could be a security risk, I mean replicators and the computer core, but then we'd not hav ea show

[@area-rf3nw]

Be os they didn’t want to invest in a new set.

[@blockmasterscott]

I was thinking that too. 😂

[@CaptainBardiel]

Make sure that DS9 has a STANAG.

[@michaelhband]

👍👍👍

[@animateddepression]

Why would they ever waste a huge amount of resources to build a new station when you have an existing functioning station?

[@survivalizer]

That map is wrong. Cardassians are on the other side of the quadrant from klingons

[@radeadcool]

Federation seems naive in the show.

[@PBAmygdala2021]

Here's a question for ya: Why didn't the Dominion build a station on their side of the wormhole? They left it completely unguarded!

[@EvilTheOne]

Ultimately, the Federation would rearm and upgrade the defensive systems of DS9. Installing Transphasic Torpedoes and Phaser upgrades as well. They would also upgrade the redundant system to support the shield generators as well. DS9 would also be armed with Unmanned Drone fighters that's capable of carrying a limited amount of Photon Torpedoes and several Rotating Modulating Phasers Banks that cover every arc of these ships. Since they would be unmanned, all it's power would be allocated to its propulsion and defensive systems. Small, maneuverable, fast and powerful makes them formidable in battle. Also by placing a Federation Shipyard on one of Bajor's moons, that would help increase repairs of Federation sector's ships and update the Bajoran fleet to current standards. Allowing the Bajorans to better defend their planet from aggressors.

[@anathardayaldar]

Because politics. Because amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics, adults talk politics.

[@falkenvir]

They Loved the Cardassian design, Stockholm Syndrome

[@widde4113]

A 10-year-old ship isn't exactly old...

[@jkleylein]

Because they had better things to do with 250 billion credits?

[@ondank]

Why didn't they build a new starbase? Have you seen how hard it is to build infrastructure now? Can you imagine how hard it would be in the 24th century? A 5G tower faces extreme opposition every step of the way, imagine the protests when you say you want to build a giant station, armed with another weapons to annihilate the planet power by an anti-matter reactor. In all seriousness, I think the best solution would be a drone swarm of some kind, similar to the mines but designed to target ships with shields already disabled by DS9 fire, swarm enemy ships and self destruct or create no go areas. Whilst ships are obviously better, early on they don't need them, and later on the federation can't spare them. And it makes sense to use what's already there until it really can't function anymore. Even as low down the chain as battle tanks will be upgraded rather then replaced, let alone large aircraft and naval ships.

[@andreslinares6429]

Because, what would Miles O'Brien have done then ? Remember, O'Brien must suffer

[@michael719]

Because it was a TV show and it didn't follow the plot.

[@danielmashmann3644]

Hero ship syndrome.

[@andreslinares6429]

It wouldn't have had fun hidden killer computer viruses