Why do bass sections drag?

Thank you to the incredible ‪@SteveMetcalf‬ for the inspiration for this with his Toscanini DESTROYS a bass section video
Dig into the comment thread that also inspired this video
/ 10159727571253265
Thanks to the bassists that took the time to chat with me for this video:
John Van Lierop - Principal Bass in the Sinfonia Rotterdam and frequent guest principal bass in many European orchestras
Thomas Fiorini - double bassist in the Brussels Philharmonic
/ @tommy49elliot
Aaron Olguin - Principal Bass in Norway's Trondheim Symphony
Aaron on CBC - • 601: Aaron Olguin on s...
Cory Palmer - Principal Bass in the Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra
Cory on CBC - • 596: Cory Palmer on au...
More video credits:
Berlin Philharmonic bass section
www.berliner-p...
Matthew McDonald
• Penderecki Duo Concert...
Brussels Philharmonic
* • Toru Takemitsu - Ran
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[@billbusen]

I read about a Principal Bass who oriented his new section basses that in their orchestra, the basses are to play: - Earlier than written - Louder than written - Shorter than written

[@doublebasshq]

Nice!

[@pablov1973]

There is a famous clip on "The art of conducting" where no matter how many times he tries, Barbirolli cannot speeed the beginning of the Scherzo of Bruckner's Seventh. And are the basses that play "pararampa" dragging the tempo.

[@gregoryf4186]

Dr Morton?

[@mrcuttime22]

KILLER video Jason! I think it was Larry Angell, a principal of Cleveland Orchestra, who said the bass is FELT more than it is HEARD. Later I realized our instrument is like the SUBWOOFER on my stereo: I can tell when it's working or not because I feel it in my FEET and my SEAT. I would suggest that our sound medium is the WOOD as much as the AIR. As such, a slight space before important notes can make the difference. And a large space before sforzandi is critical. Also, it helps to have experience conducting, because all conductors contend with the orchestra LAG TIME. It's natural and disorienting in itself, and often makes the conductor focus on the bass sound as a chief cause of lag. Nonetheless, the "stick waver" has to keep the tempo constant or driving, or else the music will drag increasingly. Best advice, get your eyes OFF the page as much as possible, and give them to the conductor who will look CONSTANTLY to us for attention. This will also bring better phrasing and musicianship.

[@doublebasshq]

Thank you so much, Rick, and great observations as well! 😃🎶

[@viennesetuningchannel6101]

Absolutely. Eyes on the conductor and concert master (sometimes you have to choose which...), and 100 % concentration from start to finish will help without a doubt. In my experience it helps to have an active attitude of "leading" rather than a more passive "following", or just playing along. In this way we can compensate for the physical properties (slowness) of the bass sound. Really knowing your part and knowing really well how the music goes, rather than more or less sight-reading, allows you to be totally in the music and in the moment, and to react immediately to what goes on around you. Drag is not exclusively a physical thing.

[@Innergameofmusic1]

More ears than eyes! But reaction in time for the middle of the sound to resonate out of the bass box-

[@skan8]

This topic alone is worth a separate podcast . More topics like this and you are golden !

[@doublebasshq]

Thanks-much appreciated!

[@viennesetuningchannel6101]

Thanks Jason, and hi Thomas good to see you :-) Very good video, and indeed one could fill a few more with this topic. There's a lot more to say about this. I wish bass players would go out into the hall more often and listen to their own orchestras and bass sections, it's very instructive. For instance, all the "extraneous" sounds, the parasites, the scratching, the "ugliness" of playing aggressively, all of that disappears at a distance and you only get the woolly, warm bass sound. So don't be afraid to articulate, don't be afraid to make a sound that is very direct but maybe a bit rough: it will never pass through to the audience. The problem is only that your non-bassist colleagues will often hate the sound you're making so close to their ears... Also, i have found that in some generous acoustics, having one or two bassists of the section play pizz in an arco passage clears up the sound and makes the timing just right. Some conductors can be very open to such "tricks" (Pappano comes to mind. He didn't care how you did it, as long as you got the results. Great, great musician and conductor).

[@doublebasshq]

Great points, Korneel! We definitely need a follow-up video on this. :-) By the way, we'll be getting out our podcast chat soon. I've also gone through Meta Hodos in its entirety and I love it so much. I have about 50 more video ideas that your great book has inspired! 😄

[@orinobrien6955]

Szell always said "orchestra playing is LARGE CHAMBER MUSIC."

[@doublebasshq]

Wise words from Szell, Orin-thanks!

[@billduris464]

I always follow the trombones and tuba. Their sound is so clear and articulate. Also, I think conductors convey expression more than they beat time. They're not like metronomes. I get the INTENTION from the conductor, but I watch and listen to the other instruments for the exact beat.

[@gregoryf4186]

Sometime timpani as well

[@DiscoverDoubleBass]

This is incredible! Such a great discussion from all and I LOVE the new format. Jason Heath rocks! 😎

[@doublebasshq]

Thanks, Geoff! Working on my animation skills... 😁🤪

[@Innergameofmusic1]

Great discussion Jason! Amazing presentation! How much did you pay Toscanini? Many great insights from colleagues! I love the comment that everyone is right!👍💥💚🎶👏

[@doublebasshq]

Thanks, Barry--glad you enjoyed it!

[@rodneysothmann109]

Yes please follow up with more on this

[@doublebasshq]

Will do!

[@dreamingpanthers1847]

Great subject! I've been anxiously awaiting this video knowing it was coming. There is definitely a lag time in bass frequencies across a large space. I'm new to double bass, but have played electric bass for decades, in large spaces. I think bass frequencies do travel slower. For electric bass, I remember the first time I got a good wireless unit with some range. I walked back to the sound booth halfway back in a 2500 seat auditorium during a rehearsal to talk with the sound team. I wanted to get an idea what the blend was like out there as opposed to what was coming through my floor wedge on stage (i was running fully direct). I was playing of course as I walked back. As I went, i began to notice a lag in the bass notes I was playing. I could see myself playing the string in time with the rest of the band, but the notes coming back were LATE!! My digital receiver was at the sound booth, so if it were signal lag, I should have had signal lag from where I stood on stage, not as I approached the sound booth. I couldn't get back to the stage fast enough. However, SOME lag I feel is worthwhile. If the violins, cellos and bass attacks all hit your ear at the same time, what you get is mud. A fraction of spacing allows your ear to perceive each instrument as itself. Again, in the electric bass world, Aphex and BBE make clarity enhancing "exciter" processing units which a lot of people swear by. Under the covers, they do this by separating the transient highs of a signal from the bloom of the lows. They offset the lows slightly after the initial high transient, and then push that out. The effect is a greater perceived clarity, while still providing a nice rich bass. So... not all lag is bad...

[@doublebasshq]

Good observations--thank you so much! I've done that wireless experiment myself on electric bass. It's an interesting experience!

[@petereratostene984]

Thank you for continuing to make this videos Jason!!

[@doublebasshq]

You bet, Peter--thanks for checking this out!

[@theodorewhite164]

Just an awareness of the problem and the physics of the bass is the beginning of solving this problem.

[@oscarceballos1261]

We dont drag, we just swing 😎.

[@andrewprzybyla8871]

As a pianist, I don't think that's funny, but as a bassist, it's hilarious! In order to understand the animal, you have to become a bassist.

[@pablov1973]

I believe is not fair use the Toscanini clips, if you have the complete rehearsal of "La Traviata", the only "Temper Tantrum" he had was with double basses. He told them 3 times that they are always late. More important than this, after blaming all of them, he talk to the first bass and he said "you are a very good bass BUT in Italian Opera you are terrible" That's insteresting, because in Italian Opera, basses very commonly are used to keep the rythm, usually ONE-two, ONE-two, ONE-two. Now, imagine that the section that has to keep the rythm is always late, everything you place upside will sound that is playing in advance. And remember, Toscanini started his musical life as a cello player, so he knew very well what's happening behind him.

[@gregoryf4186]

My teacher has a list of suggestions for playing in a section, play ahead of the beat, play loud, as you go lower play shorter and louder, if you are doubling the cellos play louder than them, stuff like that.

[@jordicarrascohjelm6599]

Love the format!

[@doublebasshq]

Thanks-more to come!

[@JonathanStefaniak]

Good video Jason, although I hate that Toscanini clip - nightmare fuel. I was thinking about this quite a lot recently. I'm not so convinced about the scientific sounding explanations used by you and others... It is definitely a complex issue and tied up with human perception. 2 things are true for sure- Low sounds take longer to get out of the bass than the higher ones (those characteristic of articulate playing) and Brains are very good at finding correlation between audio and visual, sensed at different times, and combining them into one event. So, we may all be fooling ourselves even with the best of intentions. Also, although it seems insane sometimes, it is the conductor's prerogative to define the musical reality. In that reality, we really are late.

[@doublebasshq]

Good points!

[@johnrobinsoniii4028]

Eh…Conductors don’t act that way any more….

[@PaloXanthos]

I don't know anything about an orchestral performance but I know a little about classical guitar. Our leader and prophet, Andres Segovia, never shared all of his secrets (not with me anyway) but if you listen closely he always seems to strike the bass a tad earlier. This may be against the tempo but creates a harmonic atmosphere in which the melodic lines make more sense. No need to thank me.

[@andrewprzybyla8871]

The inner going on's of musicians in an ensemble. Oh my, it's so funny!

[@franciscocosta8415]

Muito bom seus vídeos são muito animados

[@Tigerwarhawk]

As a horn player, I feel your pain. 😂

[@thesongoftheearth7802]

I wonder if Violinists at the back of the section experience some of these same issues? Do they feel they have to play ahead of the beat to sync with their principals?

[@doublebasshq]

I’ll bet it’s likely that they do!

[@willb3698]

The Speed of sound is constant through a given material, like air or a Conductors fragile ego. It may change dependant on said material, but - all things being equal, frequency is irrelevant. It certainly takes longer to get the string moving. Any conductor that disagrees with this or has other ideas (discounting the absorption co-efficient of differing materials, like steel, or a conductors tears - collected up and kept in a little bottle labeled "Maestro's Misery" - to be used for spells) should be politely reminded that "Tragic Happen's". I think it has much to do with the placement of Double basses and the string response....and conductors who simply twitch their eyebrow. In a meaningless fashion. In the wrong direction. But, like all older specimens living in our planets oceans today: The Conductor Bang Fish and the tiny, utterly deaf Cleaning Conductor Wrasse need to be protected. Despite the hazard of explosion in the first example. They make lovely companion animals, when house-trained and can be seen regularly at children's petting zoos, normally in front of some musicians, (so far a link betwen the two has eluded scientists).

[@h.seanhsu8965]

Bass section never drags. Since they're the ones dictating the tempo, it's everyone else who is rushing.