Why Do Lionel Trains Run On 3 Rail Track?

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Lionel Trains Pocket Price Guide 1901 - 2023 [Affiliate Link]: amzn.to/3LEAxK8

[@danshobbies13]

I have a new respect for Lionel now. They could have went to 2 rail track and make customers buy all new locomotives. I never thought that the track I have today could run a train from 100 years ago on it. So my hats off to them for keeping old customers in mind.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thanks for watching and commenting!

[@slepey_]

And vice-versa!

[@rogermetzger7335]

My sister, Ruth, and I were born on the wrong side of the tracks in 1944. I remember my mother heating our bath water in a copper double boiler on the stove and ladeling to into a round galvanized tub on the kitchen floor of the converted chicken coup where we lived so we could bathe. We used Dad's 1936 Ford until well into the '50s and grew most of our own food. Dad worked in a prefab building factory, Mom taught piano lessons and both of them worked evenings wallpapering other people's houses while our paternal grandmother stayed home with my sister and me. By 1950, however, we had moved into a larger house and my parents ordered the "best" windup train from a mail-order catalog. It was out of stock but the mail-order company had a policy (at least in December when people were ordering gifts) to send the "next better" item with the provision that if the person who sent the order didn't want to pay the difference, the item could be returned at no cost to the customer. "Next better" in this case meant the least expensive Marx electric train. By 1951, Dad had decided that the ability to run the train on reverse loops without any special wiring was a significant advantage of three-rail track over two-rail. He and Mom persuaded our maternal grandfather (who was, himself, a sharecropper) to buy four switches (turnouts), a 90 degree crossover and some extra track so my train could change directions without stopping or backing. The cost of the switches and extra track was about equal to the price of my electric train. By the middle of that decade - and because of their thrift and hard work - my parents had "moved up" to middle class. Hardly anyone does that anymore. It is too discouraging to contemplate losing welfare "benefits" to make the extra work seem worthwhile.

[@Cactusfruitsquisher]

It’s literally not possible in most cases. You are talking about a completely different time period where the social and economic activity were almost completely Incomparable to today. The truth is, you haven’t got a clue about the economic struggles of people in their 20s-40s in TODAYS world, you’re just speaking out of your ass. It isn’t the 1950s anymore. Aside from just getting stupidly lucky making any sort of sought after content on the internet, or just lucky in general, almost no one today can pull themselves AND an entire family out of chicken coop bath level poverty. It just cannot happen. This is the America people like YOU created. Stop being an old brat shifting the blame on people who haven’t even had a chance yet.

[@KR72534]

Your parents were heros. My grandparents had a pickle stand on the lower east side of nyc. Saved their Pennies and built a factory, etc.❤

[@rogermetzger7335]

@@KR72534 I'm a retired piano tunder. After working fifty years in the medical field (most of that time as a nurse) my wife recently took a "forced retirement" because of her medical conditions. Our daughter posted something on Facebook - a list of reasons she considers her mother to be "a freaking hero".🤣

[@moosecat]

Kudos to you, as this was a very well done video. I've been a collector of Marklin trains for about 45 years now. I was happy to learn that Marklin is "the origin of the species" when it comes to 3 rail track. I like being able to create layouts, and not having to worry about insulating and isolating rails. Other commenters have said, this but I also have additional respect for Lionel for not abandoning the 3-rail system. There's something to be said about companies that don't abandon their customers with older systems.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thanks for the feedback, and thanks for watching!

[@moosecat]

@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks thank you for making a video worth watching!

[@TOM2RN]

I did not know this. I was the proud owner of The American Flyer train set in the early 60’s. I also had an Erector set. Two of my favorite cherished toys. I don’t remember which I got first though.

[@soundman1950s]

Interesting history and some great old video footage.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thanks!

[@tinytowntrainstv]

This is a most interesting channel! Quite unique and informative. Thanks for posting! Definitely liking and subbing!

[@LectronCircuits]

Excellent training. Cheers!

[@jblackacre2325]

Greetings from San Diego! Thanks for putting all of this together. I've really enjoyed what you're doing here. There are a lot of good references that have been helping me learn about the Postwar items that I've started to collect and run. The most useful content that I find myself looking for are probably considered, "just the basics" about things like understanding the E-units and various electro-mechanical items (e.g., relays). There are some decent videos out there that are pretty old and the film/video quality isn't so great. I like that you're explaining some of these aspects and breathing new life into technical aspects. Thanks again, and hope to hear more from you. Respectfully, JB

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thanks!!

[@cboardcoastsc8192]

Love San Diego. Cooley Museum has some great stuff.

[@michaelgmoore5708]

Loo

[@muir8009]

Too add a little bit of historic context: Early on in the piece there was the track issue. It's likely issmayer had the concept of sectional manufactured track, but all those early Nurembergers missing the idea of making track pieces for separate sale. The marklin brothers were the ones that realised this, hence the great leap forward. As marklin (and the newly integrated lutz), bing, carette etc were all making steam, clockwork, and of course the new electrickery, to lend a hand to the manufacturing process its served itself to just add an isolated middle rail to the already tooled for and extant clockwork trackage. Across the pond companies, probably someone like Beggs were bringing an actual 'trainset' into the home. Howard, Carlisle, Knapp etc, all these early producers had this extremely and unworkable 2" gauge (from the popular beggs gauge) 2 rail which you built up everytime inserting lengths of copper strip into slotted ties. Awkward and unwieldy. Earliest lionel production followed this. Ives with it's looking over their shoulder policy grasped the success of the European track piece concept. Lionel, realising what a lost cause the 2 7/8" was, switched to the already well proven 3 rail track piece concept, although without the optional 2 rail set track for clockwork. Some older eastern manufacturers still clung to the 2 rail wooden tie idea, the very expensive Boucher even making what must've been a mass manufacturers nightmare of custom made wooden bases with the track carefully laid on this. That pioneer of manufactured 2 rail plastic track, plastic wagons, and accessories, triang, really rapidly dominated the English market, killing 3 rail there. Marklin still and always has run 3 rail, and for that very astute reasoning you've noted: that backwards compatibility. Sorry about this unwieldy, barely legible comment, it's unbelievably been very abbreviated! Theres so much fascinating story... What a great video/ channel. Marvelous

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thanks for adding context! That's great stuff!

[@RonJohn63]

Backwards compatibility is highly valued for every market leader in industries where you can carry old stuff forward. Microsoft, for example, spends a _lot_ of time and money on testing and ensuring hardware and (mostly) software backwards compatibility.

[@JJosephS1]

Excellent history and summary. I have a one track mind, but it has three rails!

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thanks! My train if thought often derails!

[@cliffordkiehl3959]

In my opinion the flexability of the 3 rail system is a key factor. Try to build a simple figure 8 layout in 2 rail without expensive electronics to prevent the shorts. If you are building a layout you may want the ability of designing the layout with a reverse loop, and simple crossovers.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Your point is well taken - particularly regarding reverse loops. 2-rail figure 8's are possible if the diamond crossing is properly insulated.

[@karlkoehler341]

@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks The thing with reverse loops though, is overhyped. A reverse loop requires a turnout, and having the engines slice it to the other direction isn't a good idea for reliability .. so action has to be taken ! The solution is, to attach the section of track inside the reversing loop to an electrical switch, that switches exactly when the turnout switch is thrown.. this comes nearly for free with electrically operated turnouts. The switch reverses the polarity of the rails on the non-feeder side of the loop.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

@@karlkoehler341 Maybe, but on the other hand, doing THIS required only one wire added between two turnouts. No relays. No contacts. Nothing else. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z3bWlqePd7Nrr7c

[@slacroixfr]

YES YES AND YES. The key number one strength of 3 rails system is the ability to do reverse loops or triangles with 3 junctions... making train much more fun because you can easily end up with trains going in both directions on the SAME track. Wih digital trains it is really fun as opposed to boring trains that just go round.. I still do not understand why no one mentions this great advantage. People do not play train because they are boring, because the just go round. The third rail is the spicy trick to make it enjoyable

[@michaelrtreat]

Great story. I grew up with Lionel. Always loved them even after I got to HO sets.

[@LarsPW]

My brother and me got a lot of fun in the 1970s with the Trix Express (Nuremberg, Germany) toy trains, but they had already both rails insulated against each other and a third middle rail electrically in common. In result two locos could run independently controlled on each track without any electronics.

[@paulmatulavich7321]

A superior job of editing vintage footage while infusing historical data. I appreciate the time and effort required to produce your videos. Well done Mike.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thank you!

[@PiedmontCentralRailroad]

Very nicely done. So much to like: well edited, good time length and informative.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thank you very much!

[@lancelot1953]

Hi TTT&T, thank you for the history of that third rail track system. I really appreciate these glimpse at vintage railroads especially since it brings the memories of what I grew up with. Ciao from Maine, L

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thanks for watching!

[@richardstewart4135]

Wow! great video! Where in the world did you find videos of models running on outside 3rd rail??? Fantastic! I really appreciate all the information on these classic old trains you have posted. Thanks again for posting!

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thanks! There is a collection of old home movies and old documentaries called The Prelinger Collection. There's lots of cool stuff there, but it isn't catalogued particularly well. However, if you keep looking you can find some interesting clips there.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

archive.org/details/model_railroad

[@Cyberjjc]

I really appreciate your history lesson here. I only started getting into o-scale in 2018. When my train works, I enjoy it. However, I tend to run into a power related issue with my current layout.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thanks for the feedback. What kind of power issue?

[@Shipwright1918]

Sort of a contrast to Europe, where 3 rail AC power in O Gauge has pretty well died out in favor of 2 rail DC, makes it difficult for fans of foreign locos to get ones that will work for U.S. 3 rail layouts. Might be a little biased, but I'm a fan of 3 rail precisely for the reasons you mentioned, ease of wiring and special effects, simplicity, and backwards compatibility with the rest of the line. Where else is a vintage tinplater going to rub shoulders with the latest and greatest of today?

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

And strangely, Marklin 3 rail HO was still popular into the 1980's.

[@Shipwright1918]

@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks There's still a little 3 rail kicking about in the UK today, but it's mostly as a niche thing with vintage and reproduction tinplate. *Shrugs* Different strokes for different folks , I guess.

[@fermitupoupon1754]

@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks It's still popular enough here in NL/DE. Though it's losing in popularity as somehow DC DCC stuff is slightly cheaper than AC DCC. I still run 3 rail Marklin, so does my father and my great-uncle. Now my sister's oldest wants his own model railway, and it's again going to be 3 rail AC DCC.

[@bartekr5372]

This retro looks very lovely. As a kid was playing with PIKO H0 sets, dreaming about intependent control of many engines within single rail block. Now together with my son we enjoy dcc.

[@thefuriousgamer2553]

I knew why but I’ve been playing with Lionel trains since I was a kid and I just saw your video pop up and decided to watch it 😊

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thanks for watching!

[@robertnielsen2461]

Much speculation about this.Years ago there was a book published by Faucet and in that book the author states Mr. Cowan chose the third rail so that boys could make any track plan they chose.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Yes, that's one of the reasons I mentioned (no trouble with reverse loops, no complicated wiring, etc).

[@glennso47]

I remember as a kid I watched Captain Kangaroo and he often had that huge train layout of Lionel toy trains.

[@rogerhuber3133]

Glad I found this video. I'm 72 and never knew the reason they had 3 rails. It certainly makes sense. I grew up in an area where most of us kids back then had Flyer. We always liked the 2 rail track and thought Lionel was "toy trains" and our Flyer was "model railroading"! LOL

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Go Gilbert! :-)

[@ceemichel]

Simple answer. Lionel trains use the middle (centre) rail for live and the outer rails for return, which enables the use of return loops and similar without resulting in short circuits

[@Watchmaker_Gereon-Schloesser]

Great 16mm film scenes and ads during your explaination! I think the main reason was saving costs (= more profit) and that you couldn't short cut + and - . Bakelite was available from the 1920's on. I have a AF Hudson Set from 1952. For the near future I want to build (I'm a watchmaker - see my website) for my own a live steam O gauge Mallard/ british loco. Thanks for your video! I like tin toys and tin plate trains more than this rivet counting models today. Best wishes, Géréon

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Bakelite was, indeed, around in the 1920's. However, it seems that Lionel was very cautious about using it for structural items. They generally reserved it for pieces such as the Automatic Gateman or transformer cases that received little or no physical stress.

[@Caseytify]

Bakelite was relatively brittle.

[@Watchmaker_Gereon-Schloesser]

@@Caseytify Hi! Thanks for your reply! Yes - was and is brittle (but very strong/hard, takes up to 100*Celsius), but ages better in my opinion. Also it has a nicer surface shine and I love the feeling of it. xD . Cordial, Géréon

[@frankmarkovcijr5459]

That's the one thing I like about the premiere MTH locomotives is that you can run them on either third rail or two rail with the flip of switch. People who go into o gauge from HO scale hate the third rail it is the Dead Hand of Lionel reaching out from the grave. He had too much invested in three rail that he would not have thrown that away and restarted everything with two rail. O gauge pioneers in the old days worked at ways to use realistic to rail track. They made their own signal systems as well as the switches needed to run with two rail track. Walter's and Irving a t h e r n we're both scale to rail old gazers who got started in their business by producing equipment that they made for sale for other people.

[@bxdanny]

It makes sense. As a young child (really young, about age 4) I had a toy train set that ran on Lionel-type 3-rail track. Just an oval loop, no fancy layout. The locomotive was battery-powered: a D-cell battery fit neatly into the cylindrical engine. No electrified track. So I wondered then why the middle rail was there. All these years later, I finally know.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

That was probably a Marx set. Their battery or mechanical sets usually came with 2 rail track, but they may have included 3 rail instead for inventory purposes.

[@patrickturner2417]

7:10......that kid looks just oh so excited about his train!!

[@skyraider1656]

My brother and I had AMERICAN FLYER trains in the fifties, my best friend had a beautiful Santa Fe super chief LIONEL. As kids we also had a WWII era MARX electric train that was our older sister’s. I loved that train.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

All trains are good!

[@coffeeisgood102]

That was very informative. I just subscribed.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thank you!

[@Engine1988]

The locomotive on the three rails was really funny, due to everything involved. What's even funnier, however, is the fact that the NYC usually used outside rails, not central ones...

[@ronalddevine9587]

If anyone has ever been on the London Underground, they use a central third rail on many of their lines.

[@moosecat]

and they have a fourth rail on the outside of the rails where the wheels ride on.

[@andrewwalsh6790]

They have four rails, one out side the running rails and one in the middle. The main line railways south of the River Thames are electrified with a third rail outside the running line, the main line trains, using third rail electrics run over parts of the London underground.

[@theromulanwarhawk]

Thanks for posting this! I never knew this about Lionel trains.

[@Stilicho19801]

I like Marklin's stud approach to three-rail.

[@robertmaimone8733]

Great story, I grew up with Ogauge trains, good times

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thank you!

[@MrWlbblw]

One other reason is because that 3 rail track has a LOT of nostalgia to it now. It's goofy looking but it's traditional & a kitschy part of Americana.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Yes, that's a big reason today, but not so much in 1945 when Lionel could have switched like American Flyer to 2 rail. Thanks for watching!

[@karlrovey]

It's also easier from a wiring perspective. With three rails, you can have reversing loops and wyes without needing insulators at part of it with a sensor to switch the current when the loop or wye is used.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

@@karlrovey Correct.

[@shtetc]

Thank you. Nice explanation. I like old tinplate trains.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thanks!

[@frankmarkovcijr5459]

With my MPC cars I can put plastic wheels and axles in the cars replacing the metal ones therefore they could be used on two rail track.

[@ejonesss]

1. in that shot of the train we see some kind of objects popping up and down along the train and only some of them suggests there may be some electronics so the signal for control may be sent on the 3rd rail. this was before electronics got cheap enough to modulate signals over power rails witch today's utility meters do to phone home your electric usage. 2. they are trying to emulate the subway train and gets its power from the 3rd rail. 3. many model train sets have ac output on the power supply for use with the accessories like rail lights and stuff so the 3rd rail could be where the ac is sent. 4. the 3rd rail on that small scale acts like stablizer to prevent the train from tipping at high speeds although a slug of weight on the engine car would probably work just as well. 5. in the old models the tracks was copper and brass so maybe it was to put more metal out there for people to scrap when copper prices went sky high in the 2000s.

[@powellmountainmike8853]

I had Marklin HO trains from the 1960s as a kid. They ran on track which had a nice metal roadbed, and up through the center of each cross tie a little pin contact poked through a hole, which formed the third rail. It looked quite good, and ran much better than the standard American HO system which has always been sensitive to oxidized tracks. Also, the track needed no special underlayment and ballast to look like a real roadbed, it was made to look complete. Yes, it was a lot pricier than the American system HO track and trains, but the Marklin equipment of that era was extremely realistic, and well made, and so was worth the money.

[@timpauwels3734]

Märklin track still works like this!

[@Bobrogers99]

I had an American Flyer two-rail train set. A friend had a Lionel 3-rail set, and his simply ran better. I had to frequently clean the brass contact wheels on my engine to keep it working, but the Lionel set didn't have that problem.

[@kenkramer6529]

Always wondered. Interesting!

[@Thekris0927]

May I inquire what the tune at the end of the video is? Its a banger of a song.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

It's "Little Bits" by the Johnny Dodds Trio (1926). Dodds was a New Orleans jazz pioneer and a contemporary of Sidney Bechet and King Oliver. He had a long career, mostly as a side man with other artists. I had a long battle with the music company about whether this is public domain (it is), but their search not kept flagging the tune in every video even after I proved my case, so I switched to new music in my other videos.

[@tihzho]

In the New York City subway system, the third rail carries 625 volts of electricity, and the original lines required their own power plant to operate.

[@frankmarkovcijr5459]

Outside third rail is how all of the elevated and subway trains in New York are powered. Most of the pre World War II layouts without outside third rail would have some electrical equipment on the roster to justify the use of the third rail. When I first started in ogage with the MTH Train subway train sets with the third rail being in the middle I could live with that. Your New Haven ep 5 went from cantonary Electric to using the third rail at the Harmon engine change point and then would run on third rail into Grand Central terminal in New York. As I Model A prosperous pen Central I run all of my electric locomotives with the patchographs down simulating the way they would when they were in third rail territory and they were equipped with third rail shoes.

[@timpauwels3734]

The London Underground has 3rd rail electrification with the 3rd rail in the middle

[@frankmarkovcijr5459]

@@timpauwels3734 the new street cars in Dubai are three rail powered and the middle rail is only energized when the streetcar is on top of it so it's safe to walk on it the rest of the time.

[@Quacks0]

Another advantage of three rails (outside two rails one pole, center rail other pole) is that you can turn a locomotive around on the track and it will still travel forwards/backwards as commanded. With the two-rail system, the train would "run backwards" if you turned the locomotive around.

[@paulsawczyc5019]

You can list all the advantages you want - the undeniable fact still remains, that it looks like crap.

[@benjaminroberson1967]

Interesting. When I was young growing up I remember my dad got out an old train set and put it together on our dinning room table, the oval track just barely fitting along the edge of the table. It was quite fun and rarely out as we mainly put it under the Christmas tree. The set is, I think, a Commodore Vanderbilt or a New York Central 20th Century Limited. It had been my grandma's before it was gifted to me. In the early 2000s I got a new Pennsylvania freight set. My only disappointment is that the sets' tracks are not compatible, leaving me only about to make 2 small circles though I only use one.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

I recently made a video describing how Lionel tubular track and FasTrack can fit together.

[@Caseytify]

Good video. Now you can discuss how 2 rail systems & other scales became more popular after WW2. :) Also, what the devil are those things popping up & down of the rail cars in certain clips?

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

1) That's easy. Thanks to cheap plastics tech, 2 rail became more practical to produce and the more prototypical trains became more popular. 2) I believe you are referring to the giraffes from the Lionel Bronx Zoo car. The giraffes duck their heads when they approach the "telltales". Thanks for watching!

[@Caseytify]

@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks Generally the smaller scales have more detailed cars, yes? I had a classic Lionel train as a wee lad back in the 60s.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

@@Caseytify It depends. The Lionel 700E for example was very highly detailed for it's time. The main difference between detailed or not is the price tag, regardless of scale.

[@grogi6760]

Those are giraffes in a circus train.

[@dpsamu2000]

My dad had a Lionel train. It was just a circle but he only set it up around the base of the Christmas tree for Christmas. His dad was rich, and he got them one of those trains that you could really ride. But they never set it up for us as kids. It was just kept in the tool shed next to the pool. When us kids got our own trains we got HO scale 2 rail sets. I liked them better because they were more realistic, had more features, and were cheaper. You could get more switches, more lights, longer cheaper flexi track. It is a better value for kids. More play for the money. But I remember that huge 10 pound transformer for Lionel. It was direct current so it wouldn't shock you if you touched the third rail but it would burn you because it ran hot.

[@Swenser]

Helping a friend out with his modern Lionel o gauge as I have electronics experience. Have you converted one to DCC? Friend bought the dcs52 controller without knowing the Lionel is not DCC compatible. I will try installing a decoder in the Lionel 3 rail system he has got.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

No. I have no experience with DCC. Sorry.

[@andyevans2336]

If you watch around 8 min mark, you will see the Super O track that was developed in the 50s with a much more acceptable appearance. I have a large Super O layout of post war equipment and I also am a member of our local HO railroad club. I have the best of both worlds!

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Super O was a great product. It's getting very hard to find now that it's been out of production for more than half a century.

[@frankmarkovcijr5459]

@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks the old Mike's train house companies made a super O type track but like the other track with the built-in roadbed I don't think it's available anymore with the demise of the company

[@frankmarkovcijr5459]

@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks there was a commercial by American flyer where the salesman twisted a piece of Lionel track because it was so flimsy with having only three tires holding it together as opposed to most of the other companies that would have at least five times. Old man Cohen ordered the production of super0 track and switches before testing was done and it was found that the switch machines with locked into position start smoking and then catch fire 🔥. Everybody has so much tubular track that they spend their money on new rolling stock and locomotive.

[@DouglasLippi]

As a young boy I understood the reason for 3 rails, but hated it.

[@northpennvalleysteamrailroad]

Nice video!

[@jorgef.abrillt.2541]

Interesante información, gracias.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

De nada!

[@Quacks0]

0:17 What are the posts that pop up and down from the roofs of the cars here?

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Giraffes. It's the Lionel Bronx Zoo car. There's a link below in the comments.

[@Quacks0]

@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks Ohhhhh.... so you mean that they sequentially duck down and then pop back up to avoid the "tunnel ahead" warning streamers?? :D :P

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

@@Quacks0 Yes.

[@scpvrr]

Hey Mike. Hoping all is well. Haven’t seen an update in a while. Miss your advice and instruction.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

A new video will go live in the next 24 hours (finally)!

[@Colonel2ndus]

Is Marx the same o gauge as Lionel because they got the three rail too because I have a marx and I have a Lionel train sets.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Yes. Marx and Lionel will operate on the same track. (They don't always like each other's turnouts and crossovers, though.)

[@Colonel2ndus]

Well thanks for the reply I appreciate your information

[@jozefbubez6116]

Here in England Hornby ran on 3-rail track switching to 2-rail sometime in the 1960s, I think. Like you say, this was due to limitations imposed by the insulation materials of the day. As a kid I did not like 3-rail because of realism issues!

[@fredashay]

3 rail is totally unrealistic, but it does solve the reversing loop problem!

[@joelinpa185]

It can also make signal control much simpler, if one uses a brand of track in which the outer rails are not electrically connected. On my layout I have interconnected block signals and bidirectional grade crossing detection that doesn't require complicated electronics to detect block occupancy, and which do not interfere with one another.

[@jonathanvincent5789]

The number associated with Lionel track is the diameter of the circle, not the radius. A circle of O-27 track is 27” across, not 54”, which is what it would be if it was the radius. That applies to all sizes of O gauge track. If it were the radius, O-72 track would make a 12’ circle, but it doesn’t. It makes a 6’ (72”j circle. Also, that “3rd rail” in the middle of the track in D.C. wasn’t a rail at all. The D.C. system was a “cable car” system, where the device under the train wasn’t for electrical contact, it was to grab onto the cable, which made it go. The still extant system in San Francisco works the same way. If it were an electrical third rail, it would have been a death trap, if someone were to trip and fall across the three rails at once.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

You are correct. If I said radius I misspoke. I'm not sure what you are referencing with the DC comment, but you are correct there as well. Thanks for watching!

[@bobbybrisk643]

Wheres the video of the Hudson running on 3 rail trackage?

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

I thought no one would ever ask! The footage comes from an old Fox Movietone film entitled "Rhapsody of the Rails" (archive.org/details/0406_Rhapsody_of_the_Rails_00_12_38_00) Similar scenes occur several times in the film. Careful examination shows what's REALLY happening is the train is approaching one of NYC's trademark between-the-rails water pans to take on water on the fly. About 30 yards before the water pan in a center rail guardrail to protect the tender's water scoop if it got lowered too soon. So - it's really just a joke in the video. NYC really DIDN'T use 3 rail track - it's regular 2 rail with a short center rail guardrail.

[@bobbybrisk643]

@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks Thank you very much.

[@BoHolbo]

@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks Hello! Your Archive link no longer works, but it was easy to locate. Thanks! Cheers from Vejle, Denmark.

[@plunkervillerr1529]

Are you saying that the two outer rails are negitive and the center rail is positive ?

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

"Positive" and "negative" are terms generally reserved for DC circuits. Traditionally, in three rail wiring the outside rails are "common" (or sometimes called 'ground' but that's technically incorrect). They are connected electrically through the ties and it is handy to tie all of the "common" sides together - outside rails, accessories, etc. The middle rail is typically wired as the "hot" side of the AC circuit.

[@FullEarthWorkshop]

Great video!

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thank you, and thanks for watching!

[@byartion3831]

Is there any model hobby stores had some 2-rail o scale gauge to buy an available any find to could

[@loveoldmovies]

They started as a toy train company, but now their top of the line product is highly detailed, scale and costs as much as scale brass! When you are charging $2,000 for a Vision Line engine, the least you could do is offer a choice of 2 rail or 3, or a flip switch between the 2 systems that MTH offered. I'm sick of the O gauge hobby being almost entirely represented by toy train track, which is what 3 rail is, no matter how "realistic" you try and make it. We are the only gauge that is afflicted this way- all the other scales run 2 rail.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

The options for 2 rail O have seldom been better if that's the way you choose to go. Personally, I think it's fun to be able to throw a 1930s Lionel locomotive on the layout with a modern train on the same layout. I can also appreciate the realism of 2 rail as I was active in HO modeling for many years as well. Rule #1 - It's your railroad!

[@kk-wh3hb]

I have a lot of respect for the 3 rail but am hooked on the 2 rail brass Civil War trains from SMR and am building some freight cars from BTS.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

@@kk-wh3hb Very nice!

[@madmike5421]

The only problem with that is Lionel lost it leadership role to HO in the late 60's early 70's. I have both American Flyer and HO. You can diffidently build a bigger layout with HO then you can with S or O and still have a beautifully detailed setup with both rolling stock and scenery.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Yes, HO became the predominant scale after WW2. Lionel, Flyer, and Marx all dabbled in HO but were unsuccessful in gaining any market share. Thanks for watching.

[@Wiencourager]

3 rail is superior in everything but realistic appearance. I like to have operating signals and stopping sections to protect crossings and such. so much easier with 3 rails. And it’s nice to have non derailing switches and no issues with wyes and return loops. When I had a HO layout I used some maerklin track with a third rail to operate signals and switches.

[@fredashay]

TL;DR Because a long time ago when toy trains were first made, it was impractical to make the two running rails opposite polarity to power the trains. So while it may sound counter-intuitive, it was cheaper and simpler to use a center 3rd rail.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

There's more to it than that. Lionel's first products were 2 rail. Why not switch to 2 rail after WW2 like American Flyer.?

[@newobanproductions]

There is one thing that was not mentioned is that one brand DID make the switch from 3-rail to 2-rail WITHOUT changing their scales. I'm referring to UK brand Hornby (specifically Hornby-Dublo) and since the switch, the brand and its successors (Tri-ang Hornby, now known as simply Hornby) have never looked back.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

A good point. Technically, American Flyer did not change scales, but rather gauge. They began making 3/16" scale, 3-rail O gauge trains in the late 1930's, and simply changed these 3/16" models to 2-rail S gauge after WW2.

[@andrewwalsh6790]

Hornby went to two-rail and then got into financial difficulties, and were then bought by Triang. Triang renamed itself Triang-Hornby, and then Hornby, (in the process dropping the Hornby range).

[@tonyclough9844]

Can someone tell me what the yellow posts that drop down on the wagons are. Thanks

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Giraffes www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_3376_operating_car.htm

[@jensschroder8214]

Merklin has replaced the middle rail with a rail of dots. It doesn't matter for the power bracket under the locomotive.

[@stevesmodelbuilds5473]

How interesting. I always thought -- in real life -- the middle rail was the electrified one, with contact plates under the train...

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

In the USA at least, real electrified rails are on the outside. Thanks for watching!

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

www.google.com/search?q=third+rail&client=ms-android-cricket-us-revc&sxsrf=ALiCzsbXjp8HH0S0T_PENo_FiNXUXV9CtQ:1666659956243&source=lnms&tbm=isch#imgrc=Q8ZtkxIGVDxpbM

[@stevesmodelbuilds5473]

@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks Yes, that's what made me think of it. But, I thought maybe some early electrified lines were like that. Wouldn't be very efficient, though... Maybe, if Lionel had powered their center rail like that, no insulation would be needed at all. But I'm no electrician 🤣

[@kpdvw]

3 rail track makes loops easy without the need to isolate and swich polarity, Maerklin HO started with 3 rail back in the 1920ies and never abandoned it......!

[@big12boylp]

Märklin has not left 3-rail track, but started to provide 2-rail alternatives by selling their models under the Trix brand. Additionally, it is no longer the go-to top brand for HO, as electronics and DCC became cheaper. People are no longer inclined to stick to one company or modify their models to run on 3-rail track

[@hamhouke]

Well, 3 rails look funky, but they are at least accurate in one way. The real RRs are also 100 years of tradition unhampered by progress! They never do anything different unless they are dragged kicking and screaming into it.

[@Tyc11114]

Also, I've been wondering. Can you do a tutorial on how to make an operational block section with a signal, I've tried myself but 67 year old lionel instructions aren't that easy to read lol

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

I hope to do this topic soon. Thanks!!

[@leirex_1]

Interesting to learn that Märklin actually started it. Nowadays Märklin doesn't even sell model trains for tracks with 3 rails. 3 rails are just not a thing in Germany so when I saw Lionel for the first time my reaction was unsurprisingly "Ewww what is that?! Is this some antique stuff? Why does it have 3 rails?". It's crazy how dominant Lionel is on the American market but it's also very impressive that almost everything is still compatible with 100 year old sets.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Perhaps as surprising for me to learn that Marklin was making 3-rail HO scale still in the 1970s!!

[@BAKU2K2]

Technically, Märklin does still use 3-rail track for their HO line. Though starting with the 'M Track' in 1956, the center "rail" is more so a set of "studs" instead of a typical rail.

[@0779BooBoo]

I enjoyed it.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thanks!

[@Barb5001]

It is stupid simple and no you tube sites needed to explain it . Any track pattern can be used with absolutely no special wiring.... even a small child can do it. This is because the center rail is constantly connected to the power. The center rail is always the center rail. It does not matter which outer rail is powered at any given time. Keep in mind that Lionel trains run on low voltage AC currant. So, there no + or - connections.... just the center and either outer rail as a loco, etc goes through a layout.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

We'll, that's ONE Of the reasons I mentioned. There are other reasons. After all, American Flyer targeted the same market but they switched from 3 rails to 2. Thanks for watching!

[@Barb5001]

@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks That is why i said....... " It is stupid simple and no you tube sites needed to explain it " :)

[@martinjap6529]

There is also the fact that clockwork trains (which have no insulation to the wheels) can also use 3 rail track. I don't know about Lionel but Hornby in UK, and Marklin in Germany started by making clockwork trains and switched to electric, but an electric system which was compatible with the old product line

[@Tommylovescsxtrains2014]

My vintage Lionel southern crescent locomotive will only go backwards and it won’t go forward I have no idea why

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

It sounds like you have a stuck E-unit. First, move the lever on top of the engine to the other side and turn the power on and off a few times. If that doesn't work, you will need to remove the shell and try spraying electrical contact cleaner in the reverse unit. That will work most of the time.

[@frankmarkovcijr5459]

If you looking old issues of Model Railroader magazine you will see that there are companies that advertised on converting three rail Lionel locomotives to two rail. They would have articles in their magazine about O scale railroads that had Lionel Hudson and electric locomotives as well as diesels that were converted to two rail. Going with my uncle to the Long Island Railroad they were signed everywhere that red Beware of the third rail. Of course they ran a lot of subway trains too.

[@anjinsanx44]

put rusted track in basin with white vinegar for 24hrs then says pur in clean water with baking soda to nuetralize it but how many hrs? in water n bsoda? before dry off......thx

[@stephensteamahead1089]

American O scale is the most fragmented gauge, with segments in Tinplate, Toy Trains, 3 Rail Scale, Two Rail, and Proto 48 . If two factors had come together, 17/64 scale ( correct scale for O gauge ) and two rail, all the fragments would have merged into one, except maybe Tin Plate. The fears of small flanges needing large curves were unfounded. The fragmentation does not exist in HO. If Lionel had been brave enough It may have opened up O scale making it easer, in the same way as HO is today. Its understandable why they didn't, and O scale could be described as diverse rather than fragmented. You decide!

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

You could say that they came together in "Hi Rail", essentially scale equipment running on 3 rails to take advantage of backwards compatibility. Most Lionel, MTH, and other 3 rail equipment made today falls under this category. Personally, I stay with the older stuff because I don't have room in my house for 096 curves nor room in my budget for $1500 locomotives.

[@markperlman8384]

I took one of my Post War Baby Ruth cars and removed one of the knuckle coupler trucks and replaced it with a late prewar truck. This allowed me to run Post war locomotives with prewar cars or prewar locomotives with post war cars. All because the 3 rail track is totally compatible to both periods.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

An excellent idea!

[@muir8009]

Just a couple of other boring things to add: Boucher actually called their 2 1/8" gauge track standard, with no apparent interest from Lionel, I'm guessing that the very small niche market for Boucher's very expensive and a little bit crude products probably weren't going to be a big deal for Lionel. The other thing regarding the name standard gauge, we have to remember that at that time, basically to the mid 50's, "standard" meant high end or deluxe, special etc. Not as we associate it nowadays as being normal across the board. A prime example of this change was English car manufacturer "standard". As the popular understanding of the word changed the manufacturer eventually had to drop its name, becoming triumph in the late fifties.

[@cliffordkiehl3959]

I think you are 20 years off when you site the 50's as the time Standard was popular. Actually, the 30's. O gauge was the popular gauge before and after the war.

[@muir8009]

@@cliffordkiehl3959 sorry, I meant up until the mid 50's the word standard had that particular definition as cited in this context, hence the quotes around the word standard, and of course further reference to the standard term in the fifties. The standard gauge referral was of course in 1906, its popularity waning by the mid thirties as we're well aware.

[@Tyc11114]

I think the reason 2 rail O scale doesn't have as much success as 3 rail is because of the novelty associated with the 3 rail, 3 rail is the one old folks look back on with wonder and is considered as stated before, a model train novelty

[@RailRide]

There's also space requirements...due to body-mounted couplers, a given piece of 2-rail O rolling stock requires double the minimum curve radius as its 3-rail counterpart that typically has truck-mounted couplers.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

But 2 rail COULD use truck mounted couplers if they wanted (as in 2-rail battery/mechanical trains). Some bottom-end HO trains (AHM, TYCO, etc) used truck mounted couplers in the 1960s and 1970s.

[@RailRide]

@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks Sure. I even have some in the form of the 1970's Atlas (and 1950's Kusan) rolling stock. The kind of 2-rail O-scalers who wish 3-rail had gone the way of the dodo, would openly sneer at that suggestion, though :D

[@brianmuhlingBUM]

Three Rail! Way to go.

[@Nexfero]

neat video. The more you know XD

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thanks!

[@johnkeviljr9625]

As a kid, Lionel was what we had, and I loved it. But, I thought American Flyer was more authentic looking with the two-rail system. The rail design itself was more realistic I wish American Flyer could have prevailed.

[@miles-thesleeper-monroe8466]

I've watched a bit of this one video and KZbin will now be convinced all I want to watch is model train videos 😖

[@suspiciouswatermelon7639]

How in the heck do the giraffes know when to duck!?

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

A spring lever on the car catches a special section of track.

[@odenviking]

However maerklin 1:32 runs on two track as does trix and piko. I have a 1:32 railway and it is on two rail. Thanks for uploading this intresting video. ✨✨✨✨🇸🇪

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Lionel COULD have chosen to switch to a 2-rail system after WW2 (like American Flyer) as the plastics technology had advanced enough to make the insulators both durable enough and cheap enough for mass production. However, Lionel decided that backwards-compatibility with their whistle and remote coupler systems was more important than 2-rail realism. As the market leader in North American O gauge, Marx, General Models, and others followed their lead.

[@jclay6680]

I never played with anything bigger than a HO set so my guess is the middle rail is for power .

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

That's only part of the story.

[@oldmech619]

I thought the three rain system was for kids like me that seemed to destroy anything near me. HO always seemed to be quality that I could not effort

[@A.R.77]

As a kid the 3 rail stuff looked troubling and kicked down the 4th wall.

[@greenbeacon394]

I run my MTH Premier Berkshire 765 refitted with TMCC with my MPC Lifesaver Tank car and 1940s merchandise car🚂

[@Jeff97405]

In New York Subway they always say...the 3rd rails a killer...

[@Greatdome99]

Tin is never used as a metal, only as an alloy like in solder. It's a common misconception that tin-plated steel is somehow tin. The tin plating is added to prevent rust.

[@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks]

Thanks for the information.

[@kalburgy2114]

Since aluminum replaced tin for foil?

[@Wiencourager]

Pure tin is expensive, but it was once used for countertops, and it’s still used for organ pipes. Look up how organ pipes are made on KZbin, it’s interesting how they cast the sheets of tin.