Why do People Hate 3rd Cases in Ace Attorney? (...OR DO THEY?)

Today we are going to look at third game syndrome in the Ace Attorney series. Are third cases really the worst in the Ace Attorney games? Today we analyze the cases and find out.
Timestamps
0:00 - Intro
0:49 - Ace Attorney 1
2:07 - Justice for All and Trials & Tribulations
4:31 - Apollo Justice
5:51 - Ace Attorney Investigations 1
6:56 - Ace Attorney Investigations 2
8:25 - Dual Destinies
9:28 - Spirit of Justice
10:25 - The Great Ace Attorney 1
11:20 - The Great Ace Attorney 2
12:09 - Conclusion
Footage Credits:
UHD Longplays: / @longplayshd
Slyzer: / @zslyzer
Cyime: / @cyime

[@paperluigi6132]

The third cases are just Phoenix doing his job before the plot picks up. It’s not like every case HAS to tie in to Phoenix’s personal life somehow.

[@danieldavid3766]

Yeah, I like that Ace Attorney has some cases that are just “you be a lawyer and catch criminals” because that’s what the game is all about. Sure the third cases all have their individual flaws, but the concept of a filler case shouldn’t be outright dismissed.

[@DerpyHiro]

Yea I don't see the problem with a non plot relevant case either

[@paperluigi6132]

@@danieldavid3766 in the context of the main plot, I can see how they’re considered filler, but in the grand scheme of things, filler cases aren’t filler at all, since you’re playing as someone who first and foremost has a job to do.

[@diesakuma367]

​@@paperluigi6132 yea Cases do not need to be connected to the plot to be good Good example is 6-2 and 6-4(yea its very fillet but characters are making up for it)

[@thattimestampguy]

@paperluigi6132 Great point

[@jacksonpekny431]

I would argue that the setting of Turnabout Samurai *retroactively* became very important. Would Edgeworth have really changed sides if he hadn't been made to prosecute the star of his favorite TV show? This is highlighted a bit in the anime, where he realizes his true duty to fight for justice after an emotional outburst from Cody Hackins.

[@DerpyHiro]

I personally see Edgeworth being a Steel Samurai fan as something that was retroactively added after the first game. In the first game itself, there's only one line where Edgeworth says he's a huge fan of Will Powers' work but it's played off as Edgeworth being a liar. There were no other signs of Edgeworth being interested in the Steel Samurai in that game. But Turnabout Samurai's importance to the series overall is insane. The Steel Samurai has been crucial in a lot of cases and just keeps expanding throughout the series

[@SpeedStar1642]

Turnabout Samurai is honestly the most harmless 3rd case in the series for me. Since it establishes a few core parts of the Ace Attorney world and honestly sets the bar for what an Ace Attorney case would consist of. It adds more than it detracts and it’s fun to see a pre-Heel Face Turn Edgeworth team up with you.

[@yellowstarproductions6743]

I agree

[@bendover2649]

Turnabout Samurai is crucial to the plot for one main reason: Maya. It's the first case where she's your sidekick, and you're essentially reintroduced to her character in terms of her personality and dynamic with Phoenix. In Turnabout Sisters she's basically just 'Mia's Sister', and is quiet and melancholy throughout the case for obvious reasons. In Samurai she's her usual immature, lovable self, and it makes the goofy filler plot work because it gets you familiar with her presence, because if she first joined Phoenix in Turnabout Goodbyes the process of getting used to her would distract from the more plot-driven final case.

[@artificialaceattorney6822]

I actually like Turnabout Samurai more than the first two cases. The murderer isn't completely obvious, the case has a fair amount of backstory (which is one advantage of cases that are separate from the main plot of the game) and the revelation that Hammer tried to frame Powers turns the case on its head. It's a good example of how to up the ante, and how third cases don't always have to connect to the others.

[@DerpyHiro]

Yup same here. I prefer it to the first two cases for the story as well

[@thesardonicrenegade3065]

I remember mid trial realizing how Hammer really died and my mouth dropped.

[@nicktheswampert1646]

Turnabout Samurai is actually one of my favorites. I loved the twist of it being self defense and Edgeworth having a change of heart. The side characters were also really fun.

[@Eskun8998]

for me the 3rd cases were actually always highlights to me, i never realized people had negative opinions of them 😭 💔 even if they didn’t have much relevance to the plot, each case had interesting characters and fun cases to solve more than other cases i’d argue

[@DerpyHiro]

Yea some people just don't like cases that aren't plot relevant

[@diesakuma367]

The biggest problems with 3rd cases are logic,characters and mystery itself Plot relevance is barely an issue here(at least for me) For example Spoilers Take 6-2 for example It has no plot relevance but it considered one of the best in SOJ Because mystery is good and kinda creepy with how victim died villain is very good and logic makes sense 6-4 yes it is a filler but as stand alone case is good 3-2 has no plot relevance(maybe godot but it is very little) Maybe 2-2 but for me its not a good case(also there is some plot) I dont know any other cases that are good and have no plot relevance

[@kusu4059]

@@diesakuma367 i didn't really like 6-2, probably because it feels kinda old, like it uses the same repetitive aa scheme of the trilogy, but mostly because the villain is a big crybaby who had no reason to commit the crime other than frame trucy.

[@diesakuma367]

@@kusu4059 well true I will admit that But this case give massive development for trucy and apollo(the sibling bond is much stronger here) And it is good with logic and mystery But I can understand why you did not enjoy it To be honest I mostly enjoyed it cause of development for those two(which should have been done in previous games) The second reason is the main focus is trucy since she was done dirty in DD

[@gdassspar6nr204]

6-4 is the worst case in my opinion.

[@via3600]

Major investigation spoilers But technically the Berry big circus is highly relevant in the second investigations game I still can't get over the extremely ballsy move of bringing back the worst case in the series and using it for your finale, and one of the best villains of the series lmao

[@DerpyHiro]

yea that is true Big Top gets some relevance there. I think the reason why they bring back the circus is because Turnabout Big Top is popular in Japan. So from their persepctive, it's not a risky move

[@gamercore5216]

Ay another fan of the one who masterminds the game

[@ejelecflametails6657]

​@@DerpyHiroI feel like that's why the anime version of Turnabout Big Top is actually good. Someone in Japan sees the flaws they do acknowledge and see what we Americans did not.

[@WannabeMarysue]

Turnabout Samurai was important for Maya's character, not Phoenix or Edgeworth. She had a very sympathetic introduction in Turnabout Sisters, but in Turnaround Samurai she gets to blossom into your fun sidekick.

[@MinorLife10]

I really liked 3rd case in Dual Destinies. Means did not really seem suspicious to me (because I thought his creepy behavior is a bait) and all of this friendship even fixed some my mental problems in my 18, believe me or not. Though, first day of trial was a tomfoolery

[@DerpyHiro]

Great that it changed your life for the better!

[@dgc1570]

I do not blame people hating the badger song

[@DerpyHiro]

Yea I don't either

[@ShadowoftheMask]

I mean tbf, if all cases are just connected to either Phoenix, Maya or Edgeworth, it would kinda make it seem like nothing else is happening in the world or Phoenix's career. Ye are right that they aren't connected to other scenes, but I don't think they necessarely needed to be "main story relevant". That said the later Ace Attorney games did better job making all cases feel relevant in general.

[@DerpyHiro]

Agreed, it would make the world feel very small

[@diesakuma367]

I think Turnabout samurai could have been better if 1.Will Power was declared innocent after second day of trial and then the blame would fall on Penny(if you want to have 3 days ofc, would be interesting defending two people in one case) 2. Or just finish on 2nd day the trial. But I think my first idea would be better(since we would get to know Penny a little bit)

[@DerpyHiro]

Yea I've heard people talk about the issue of the third day being useless. I got to go back to the case and see it for myself because that wasn't something I caught on to

[@yangyichng5362]

Wendy oldbag is a fantastic character.

[@a05polzar]

Although 3 Case syndrome goes away after a while, I feel that they showed the filler cases to cases 2 and 4. However, cases like The Monstrous Turnabout and Turnabout Storyteller aren't quite as bad Turnabout Serenade or The Kiddnapped Turnabout. This is really only for Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice, but that might have to do with those games more play it safe approach, the games not taking as many risks to reach grander heights than the original trilogy. Then cases like The Adventures of the Clouded Kokuro and The Memroies of the Clouded Kokuro are both just solid Ace Attorney cases that try out some new ideas relating to victims of these cases. The Imprisoned Turnabout seems to just be a good case (keep in mind that I haven't finished this case yet). Since you can't find too much about The Rite of Turnabout, I'll give my opinion. To put it simply, I really liked this case. For context, I had already played all three Danganronpa games before playing Spirit of Justice. I really liked how this is the only double murder case in Ace Attorney, and it is much better than the three from Danganronpa. Additionally, I loved the worldbuilding this case had for the setting of Spirit of Justice. So overall, this was a very enjoyable case for me.

[@DerpyHiro]

That is interesting to note that the filler cases nowadays usually get shoved to case 2 or 4. Not sure why the series decided to make that change but it's an interesting change nonetheless

[@youmeltube]

I find it strange to call DD/SoJ "playing it safe" when they're both some of the most experimental games in the series. DD had a story told completely out of order where the intro case both set up and secretly solved all the mysteries, and SoJ just flat out involved two countries at the same time.

[@a05polzar]

@@youmeltube Yeah, I kind of think that saying DD and SoJ "play it safe" didn't get my point across. Now that I think about it, they do try different things with the formula such as: Cases out of order or having the game take place in another country with different rules. When I said play it safe, I kind of meant that these games tend to rely on certain Ace Attorney tropes such as: Oops Maya's in trouble again or here's a case from long ago that was never solved. These had already started to get a little played out as early as T&T, so now they are a little stale. DD and SoJ are still great stories despite this, but I feel like something is holding back the full creativity of the series.

[@youmeltube]

@@a05polzar Maya getting in trouble I'll agree with being a cheap choice, but I can't point to much else AA5 and 6 do in particular that feels tropey. "Cold cases" like DL-6 and UR-1 are just a common thing in crime investigation irl and just a very effective storytelling method in general. To my knowledge AA2 is the only game in the series not to make use of it - and even then, Big Top still has a dramatic incident from years past serve as the seeds planted for the case itself.

[@Posterchild19]

It's funny that the Investigations duology has the worst and the best third cases of the series

[@tseglun584]

Generally, the reception of the two games being so different is kinda funny to me. It's gotten to the point where newcomers going "Hey, I want to play the Investigations games, because I heard the second one was great but apparently the first one sucks. Should I skip it and just play the second one?" is quite common.

[@DerpyHiro]

Yea I'd guess that's a fairly common opinion

[@DerpyHiro]

@@tseglun584 It's hard to say if it's skippable game but I'd say people should play AAI1 so that they can get the full characterization of Kay and Shi Long Lang. Otherwise a few small segments of AAI2 might be confusing

[@tseglun584]

@@DerpyHiro Oh definitely, the player wouldn't be as attached to either of them, and probably be confused over them, despite reintroductions.

[@ladybentley1563]

The Edgeworth games are literally the definition of “hot and cold” and “bipolar”! The first game is considered one of the weakest games in the series, while the second game is considered one of the best (and my personal favorite).

[@tseglun584]

I honestly kinda like The Monstrous Turnabout, and even prefer it over Turnabout Academy, if only by a little. I guess Trucy's reduced character in the game bothered me, along with her barely established friendship with Jinxie, but other than that, I had surprisingly fun with the cast and mystery. I also quite liked the twist, and the defendant as well. The interactions of Blackquill and Fulbright has some great foreshadowing as well. Also, I wasn't ready for 8:38

[@DerpyHiro]

Grossberg is stacked

[@tseglun584]

​@@DerpyHiroGrossberg does provide the fans with fan service

[@ida_11037]

i sorta liked turnabout serenade but i think thats just cause i don't remember much details of the actual case story itself all i really retained was klavier's good character moments there

[@DerpyHiro]

klavier did have some things added to his character here

[@Maneru5978]

I couldn't hear the piano abnormality no matter how hard I tried.

[@Ligytdr]

I really don't think the 3rd cases deserve the hate, just in AA2 and AA3, but none of the others deserve it

[@diesakuma367]

I am going to rank the third case in every single AA (from worst to best for me personally). Spoilers Turnabout Serenade (F**k this case, it made me so pissed that I wanted to turn off the game; everything sucked here: logic, characters, mystery; the only good thing I found is the culprit, even though he is obvious but funny); Kidnapped Turnabout (very boring and forgettable culprit sucks, but I like that Ema and Meekins were there; I also do not mind Blue Badger). Turnabout, Big Top (I don't hate this case; I dislike it because of the logic, characters, and theme, but I like Regina at the end, and I like Acro and Moe.) Recipe of the Turnabout (Victor and Armstrong sucked; the mystery kind of sucked, logic with Furio being the lawyer is bad; the return of the Maggey was nice; and the breakdown was very unique by making Furio confess.) Turnabout Academy (I don't like cliche friendship stories; the case drags and drags on forever, and the culprit is very obvious; he is also not well written, but the characters are good, and we finally play as Athena.) Turnabout Samurai: "YES, YOU HEAR ME!" I like Samurai better than Academy (the mystery is simple but effective, the case drags as f**k, and the culprit is kind of forgettable, but we get the introduction to The Steel Samurai Show with Will Powers, Oldbag, who I'm indifferent about, and Dee Vasquez, who is a good culprit and unique in self-defense; Miles also gets development.) The Rite of Turnabout: I like this case very much; I actually despise the length; the mystery is good; the culprit is good. Tahrust and Behleeb, as well as the self-defense, are very good; the breakdown is very good; the logic holds water very well; we get a guilty verdict that is very unique, and it has relevance in the story; but there are some things wrong, of course, such as Maya being accused AGAIN; the case drags a little bit; and we don't cross-examine Behleeb, so satisfaction kind of drops. 3rd case in crossover (The mystery is good; it has a large relevance to the story; the characters are very well done except for Birdly; the plot twist about Belduke committing suicide is very good and impactful; Greyerl is well done as the "culprit," who is also very tragic; and honestly, there are no real complaints except for Birdly and his singing.) 3rd case in TGAA 2 (a very good case, it has One of the biggest relevancies is overarching; the mystery is good and fun; the jurors are smart and not annoyances; Enoch Drebber and Courtney Sithe are very well done. Van Zieks has made a massive development; Kazuma is back; the bad stuff: Sithe being the culprit is a nice change, but they could have done it better; some of the cross-examinations are unnecessary and dragging. 3rd case in TGAA 1 (very well done case, introduction to jurors, Van Zieks, worldbuilding, it has big relevance in the story, the mystery is good, and it also makes fun of making assumptions since Occam's Razor is the solution-McGilded is the culprit or we don't know it yet-very refreshing, very fast-paced case, and engaging, also thanks to that Ryuu is questioning his job as a lawyer; the only critique I can give is it can drag on. And Finally Inherited Turnabout (the most important 3rd case): without this case, AA does not exist since IS-7 creates DL-6, same to the AAI2 story, we play as Gregory Egdeworth, all the characters are good, even Larry was OK, the mystery is very well done, Gustavia is a very good killer, they brought back Manfred, the pacing is great, and I like that they made Katherine very smart here to bring the culprit-we don't get characters like her very often-and also STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS is very well done (I would say better than Turnabout) since it was 18 years ago. Also, because of the law, Gustavia might get away scott-free since the master's confession was forged, which is contradicton to the law (I have no complaints about this case). So yeah, this is my ranking. I hope that in AA7 we wont get 3rd case syndrome or any case syndrome at all

[@DerpyHiro]

Fair list. Turnabout Academy being lower than Samurai isn't a surprise just because I have seen some people say it's one of the worst cases in the series. I hope that AA7 comes out

[@diesakuma367]

@@DerpyHiro oh ok I actually heard the opposite about academy Also in kidnapped turnabout I forgot to put introduction to Kay,Lang and Shin-na

[@DerpyHiro]

@@diesakuma367 There are also some people who really like Turnabout Academy. The opinions on that case are all over the place

[@technotrouble3386]

Rite of Turnabout is the best case ever created

[@skyrunnerblake1481]

I think I still prefer the more tightly knit games (like The Great Ace Attorney having each case tie into the overarching plot, with the end revealing a lot more connections) but third case syndrome isn't really something I noticed playing individually. The only case I felt pulled me out of the game entirely was Big Top. (Not to say other cases didn't have major detractors, but that one hit most of them, with a few uncomfortable characterisations, not very interesting relationships, and the crux points of the case were... a bit too out there for me to get it and guess what happened before hand.) All of those I felt were execution issues though... As for 'filler' cases...well, I don't know if I personally buy into that kind of label unless we're talking specifically about parts of a story made specifically to lengthen or add alone and for no other intent. I don't really think that was the case in any of these. I do prefer the more tightly knit overarching stories of TGAA, but I can't say there's anything wrong with cases that are more random event types either in general. They can still be plot relevant if they tell us about our main characters through their interactions with others, or by exploring a different side of our world/person... and there are other aspects to case order too, like introducing the player mechanically to new concepts or increased complexity as the game goes on. And many of these cases seem to be created in order to do something unique or interesting without being as restricted. They certainly don't pan out all the time for sure. For me Big Top was poorly executed but probably could have been fine otherwise, regardless of 'plot relevance' Athena's case in SoJ was the only other one I felt bad about, but honestly I remember so little of it. It feels yucky because it seems like they felt like they wanted her to be present in the game but weren't actually willing or able to give her a real role, so she got a case assigned that feels way too separate and disjointed, literally in a different place, different plot, different protagonist, etc. That can work if their stories tie in more, but they didn't really bother letting Athena shine in this game, so... Maybe she could have traded places with Phoenix? If he had the one off case maybe it could be more utilitarian (Phoenix is getting information or something for Athena and Apollo) and could still serve as a way to keep him present in the game without having to risk his marketable image (i liked hobo phoenix, but, well...) or steal spotlight away from Apollo or Athena, who really probably should have gotten more since Phoenix isn't really allowed to change anymore. Athena and Apollo being together in Kur'ain could have been a great opportunity for exploring how they function as a team or independently away from Wright Everything Agency and add more stakes since they wouldn't have a really successful and experienced lawyer in the cases Phoenix normally appears in.

[@DerpyHiro]

Yea the way they fit in Athena was... not the best. Hopefully she gets more time to shine later on

[@DetectiveEmaSkye]

I just finished 3-3 not too long ago; I actually was very invested in the premise; an impostor, posing as Phoenix for his own selfishness (and what I assumed to be to defame Phoenix, but it still does do that)

[@nobgs4505]

Inherited Turnabout has amazing plot relevance not just to the game but to the FRANCHISE ITSELF as we finally get to know what the case was that led to the DL-6 incident. Not only that but we get to see Edgeworth put the pin in on the last case that his father took on years ago before his death, and (Spoilers) Taking down Dane Gustavia by finding out that due to the Statue of Limitations guidelines, the actual time it'd be in effect would be 14 years and 8 months, rather than 18 years, and thus JUST in time to convict him (since Dane literally gave a FULL CONFESSION under the belief he was protected by the Statute od Limitations) was so satisfying to see. After so long, Masters was free, and Edgeworth has finally proven to Raymond that he plans to become a man much like his father Gregory, rather than one like Manfred, while also closing the case that his father worked on last before his death.

[@DerpyHiro]

Yea it's crazy that one of the most plot relevant cases in the series is in a spin off game

[@gamercore5216]

Gregory such a badass he taught the devs how to make good games

[@HerlockSholmesREAL]

I like the takes and explanations of the cases! I do understand how some 3rd cases can be bad. My honest takes: (spoilers ofc) PW:AA - Honestly, I kept forgetting about it. When I was new, I kept trying to remember the order cases and I always forget about the 3rd case. Characters like Salmonella were weird. I would say the memorable part would be the "unnecessary feelings." JFA: Pretty infamous lol. I don't like it. And one of the major reasons why is Regina's age... Adults in a love triangle with her is so weird. Like a 31, 21, and a 16 yo. Don't forget Bat who was around 19. If they made Regina in her mid 20's, I think it would've been better. Yes, there will be problems still (ex. Cape flying onto the bust) but at least the love triangle is fixed and Acro wouldn't try to kill a 16 y/o (ofc killing someone is obv bad but killing a teen is over the top). Say what you want about the anime but at least the anime improved Big Flop. T&T: Jean Armstrong and Kudo definitely made me uncomfortable. Armstrong's dialogue is just ugh... All I could say positively would be Viola is an interesting character, Tigre is a hilarious villain, and Mia in the maid outfit (honestly, I'd rather see her in that outfit than Pearl channeling her tbh.) AAI: I honestly forgot it. AAI storyline isn't great compared to the 2nd. I could only remember the creepy badgers.. ugh. The culprit isn't as "handsome" as he was described lol. AAI2: The start of it all. I loved this case so much. I love going to the past and present. Gregory thinking about his son makes my heart melt so much. I'm pretty sensitive, so the ending made me cry. Ray defending Kate is so sweet, Jeff crying, and the side-by-side photo of Gregory and Ray and Miles and Ray. That was sweet, I loved the ending. AJ: The logic is pretty bad. Ah yes, a. 14 y/o small kid is the killer. He definitely killed a 6'0+ bodyguard with a gun that can literally dislocate your shoulder when shot multiple times and remains unharmed. And the serenade video reminds me of the ROTA blue badger video. DD: I can see this being controversial but I thought it was nice. I love sappy content, and their friendship was nice tbh. I'm glad Hugh's feelings for Juniper wasn't actual romance thankfully. SoJ: I honestly like it. The ending made me cry lol. I really love how it's not a murder but a tragic accident. Dude was willing to die so painfully just to protect his wife from the DC Act. It's just a huge tragedy and I honestly love it. I stand by the Dragons 100%. DGS1: I loved it. I hated the defendant but I love the feeling of doubt it created. When you check the evidence again, you feel somethings off but you can't exactly say it. It gives us so much doubt and it's wild. And we see the reaper's reputation has nothing to do with wins but rather deaths. DGS2: AMAZING. I loved Albert and other characters. Gina is awesome too and Toby is so cute. The case was so interesting. Sholmes telling us to pursue to case to figure out the whole truth was important. It opens another amazing mystery later on. Drebber is an interesting character and I liked the robotic dude. He should have a dance contest with Graydon and Shamspeare. In the end, Barok being a nice friend to Albert was so wholesome and he actually cares for him. Yeah, these are my opinions. If you disagree, I'm fine with it.

[@DerpyHiro]

Yea these seem pretty in line with the overall opinion of the fanbase. Personally I disagree with some of them but some disagreement is to be expected

[@rafaelmoutinho5697]

About Apollo Justice, the kid was just a drug dealer, the killer was the guitarist , which doesn't make it much better

[@DerpyHiro]

@@rafaelmoutinho5697 I think they know that Machi didn't kill the bodyguard. They were just making fun of how all the characters and the court itself believed that to be true

[@HerlockSholmesREAL]

@@rafaelmoutinho5697 Very fair. The concept was interesting but wasn't exactly well-executed

[@rafaelmoutinho5697]

@@DerpyHiro oh, that makes more sense, it has been some time since I played AA so i only remembered some details

[@Tudsamfa]

Finally, someone acknowledging "the golden court" for the masterp- "...except the crossover..." Fine, I'll watch the video before making up my mind.

[@DerpyHiro]

well I do give a little mention of it being the fan favourite case in the crossover so I guess that's ....something?

[@handsoaphandsoap]

I didn’t realize people disliked Kidnapped Turnabout that much, I didn’t really mind it. It’s the introduction of Kay, there’s some fun gameplay like the Little Thief segment and I personally like Meekins, though admittedly I’m in the minority there. I agree the other characters are pretty weak and ultimately it’s not super memorable, but it’s a short one-off that doesn’t overstay it’s welcome, unlike other cases in Investigations 1 (*cough cough* Turnabout Ablaze *cough cough*).

[@DerpyHiro]

Yea I don't understand the hate that much either, I can see people thinking it's mid but how it becomes one of the worst cases is a bit confusing to me

[@grayfox4819]

Honestly... I find puzzling that people would hate Turnabout Academy and most especially The Rite of the Turnabout. IMO they're both in the upper half of the cases of the series in general, and I don't understand why Many people hate them...

[@diesakuma367]

You know what is funny? I hate Academy and like/love rite Academy is a mess I have seen a lot of people praising it but honestly there is little to praise here Let me list my problems with this case and what they should have done Problems: The originality:this case like to copy the structure from serenade-thankfully more logical Every SINGLE character is one-dimensional The cliche friendship dilemna-god,this was boring,predictable and not fun Pacing:This case like to drag on and on,especially with Hugh Klavier being back was insulting He has no role in this case You could remove him and it would be the same He is bigger on the cover of DD(bigger than edgeworth) implying he has a bigger role but nope he is just useless Also the VA ruined klavier completely(VA is not bad its just does not fit) He is pathetic excuse of a fan service Aristotle means:not only is he obvious but horribly written The end justifies the means was just annoying Also I hate The dark age of the law plot since it does not make any sense We dont get why Means think the way he does with, this would be interesting to hear his thought and maybe even connect phoenix into this since he forged the card in AJ(there is a connection here) But no means is just Bland Also the game should not have said that "The end justifies the means" is bad and courts are good. I get it justice must be just but after AJ we know that sometimes "end justify the means" was necessary. And coustine court should not be praised like she is. Her motto is the "truth is only revealed through proper means" which again contradict AJ on how flawed the law is. Yes I know the non spoiler rule exist but at least dont say means motto is 100% evil and courte motto is 100% good My solutions I would change so structure so i does not completely copy from serenade What I said about means and phoenix I think aura blackquill should appear and then tell means and phoenix about her beliefs Remove klavier or make something with him(but honestly i think I would remove him since I dont know what to do with him) Make the friendship trio more flesh out-more interesting,more depth I was thinking that Means convinced Juniper to defend her in the first part-so we can see how Means operate-I always hated that this idea was ignored Then Athena convince her like she did in DD Someone should have said that courte motto is flawed(like phoenix for example since you know, AJ-this could have created conflict between him and athena) Ok this is a stupid idea but I thought that maybe we should make that Juniper is actually the culprit but it was an accident This would be interesting take on athena- She would pursue means until Apollo question the way athena is going with it. She has trouble believing that Juni is the killer and then she is having a flashback with Means about his philosophy At the end Athena,unwillingly,proves that juni is the killer Then We have a talk with means about the way Athena found the truth(means would say that no one is happy with this outcome) And etc. Idk if this idea is better but it would be very interesting to see that. That is all I really hate this case This case is the second worst for me(after monstrous which wins by 5%) Rite of turnabout Well for me it is the weakest in SOJ But I like it(even love it) My problems: The length I would cut the whole Datz testimony and fix logic in first divination seance Nahyuta does not really develop(even tho I like him) I dont like that Maya was under arrest-Maya was a afterthought and she was supposed to be the main focus(thankfully 6-6 fixed that) Also we do not get to cross-examine beh'leeb so the satisfaction kinda drops Those are my complaints Now positives: I like all characters, I like the premise of the case Mystery is interesting,logic make sense(except first seance) I like the twist that Tahrust killed himself(you could figure it out beforehand) I like that divination seance has a part in the story-that it is not just a gimmick I like the backstory for Apollo(he has none in AJ, and very little in DD) Maya stayed consistent I like the little development for Rayfa I liked that we got a guilty verdict That was unique and unexpected(goes to see the terror and unfairness of the khurain legal system) Basically First part of the case kinda sucks and the second gets better and better Those are my opinions about these cases

[@bobus8349]

I binged a bunch of your danganronpa videos back when I first beat that series, and now I just beat Ace Attorney trilogy so I get to binge a bunch of them again, WOOHOO!

[@mariocraft3067]

I actually really enjoyed case 3 in investigations (the last game I finished so far). I was kind of apathetic to the game before that point, but that was when it really picked up for me. Lauren and Amano aren’t very good, and Ema needed more screen time, but I loved the puzzle elements of the case, keeping track of the various blue badgers in different locations as well as the introduction of little thief. Kay was an entertaining addition, though Lang was pretty annoying at first. The biggest way my opinion differs from most though, is with Lance. Yes, he is a spoiled rich kid, but I don’t know why that automatically makes him a bad character. I felt like the whole dynamic of him greedily taking money from his father, being forced to kill someone, pinning it on his devoted girlfriend, and the way he acts about it makes him a pretty entertaining slimeball. The way he has to catch his handcuffs after taking damage to show that he is only pretending to be kindapped as well, genius. Oh yes, and I am an Oldbag enjoyer. I feel like characters made to have annoying traits in general are hated unconditionally. One last thing, the flawed legal system in AA4 is not just to give an excuse to arrest Machi, it’s a central theme of the game. I do wish this point was emphasized by the characters more, like having Ema be reluctant to arrest and testify against him (maybe she did it’s been a while). Overall I think serenade is genius, just mishandled genius.

[@DerpyHiro]

I like Oldbag as well. Annoying characters can be fun. And I agree the puzzle elements of the Kidnapped Turnabout are fun

[@starmic1852]

I have a personal theory that SOJ-3 and SOJ-4 swapped chapter orders at some point. It would make sense timeline-wise as Nahuyta wouldn't have to go back and forth between all 3 SOJ cases (SOJ-2, SOJ-3, SOJ-4) but from a gameplay standpoint, having swapping locations between each case was much better.

[@DerpyHiro]

My personal theory is that SOJ case 4 was added on late into the game to let Athena have a case. SOJ is already a very big game so I wouldn't be surprised if they just made it have 4 cases. That final case is basically 2 cases combined into one

[@diesakuma367]

​@@DerpyHiro I think your theory is more plausible They added 4th one so Athena would not be forgotten The 4th case would be so much better if it takes place in khurain Not only plot relevance but maybe there could have been better creative mystery Maybe seance would be also creative(idk how tho) And also Blackquill Idk If I would remove him or not Geiru is fine(just the motive is weird) Nahyuta could be more cooperative with the defense Uendo is such a great witness with different personalities(DID) Also the most important part MAKE ATHENA BE MORE CONFIDENT AND COMPETENT SINCE SHE REVERSED BACK TO SQUARE ONE Idk what other things should be fixed about this case

[@vaccuumhelmet521]

@@diesakuma367 I agree with mostly everything but Athena being more confident/competent do remember she’s still just a rookie attorney, she’s only got 1 1/2 cases under her belt at this point and time and is still learning the ropes of being an attorney

[@artificialaceattorney6822]

Alternatively, they could have changed the dates around so that even if you play SOJ-4 after SOJ-3, it's chronologically before that case. Dual Destinies had the cases out of order- Case 2->DLC->Case 3->Case 4(Day 1)->Case 1->Case 4(Day 2)->Case 5.

[@KyrieFortune]

Most third cases are lighter and simpler than the case that will come after, it's like a moment of respite before the drama kicks you in the face like a skull laser. They aren't designed tk be hated, it's that they tend to lack some gravitas and people don't understand that having something light in between heavy stuff actually makes for a better experience

[@DivideBy0_]

Wait people hate The Rite of Turnabout???

[@DerpyHiro]

yes some do but some love it and then a lot of people are somewhere in the middle so opinions are just all over the place

[@yunalee6707]

I haven't played Apollo justice or dual destinies or spirit of justice or any of that, but I will say Inherited Turnabout is my favorite case in Ace Attorney

[@electronic_rat]

I really like turnabout Samurai overall. I actually prefer having some 'filler cases' because it gives us a chance to get to know the characters more when they're doing their normal job and not dealing with like intense personal trauma lol. I do think that some of the investigation days needed to be streamlined a little (I got stuck having to go back and forth between rooms just trying to trigger different dialogue several times, it got very frustrating and I had to pull up the game guide) but I don't think the case was bad. Big top wasn't as bad as people say imo but it did have a lotttt of little things that didn't age well, at least compared to the other cases. I'm currently finishing the og trilogy so I don't have opinions on the other games yet but I think third case syndrome is real for the early games it's just generally exaggerated

[@PossessedbyPhoenix]

It's strange that even though Ace Attorney games have 4-5 cases, while Danganronpa games have 6 chapters, they both share the dreaded Third Case Syndrome, wonder why that is!

[@DerpyHiro]

Yea it is interesting that both series are plagued by that. My guess is that each series wanted a more goofy/filler case at least once and they wouldn't want to put that in the beginning or end which are very important parts of the game. So they just throw it in the middle

[@jadonh]

Man, I didn’t realize people really disliked “The Kidnapped Turnabout” that much. I must be one of the few people who like Wendy and Mike Meekins, lol. And that case will always have a special place in my heart because, when I first played the entire series, I had no idea Ema was in the Investigation games, so when she showed up, I was beyond happy. And honestly, any interactions between Wendy and Edgeworth are gold, lol. Honestly, the only thing I didn’t like about Ace Attorney Investigations 1 was the fact all the events were a bit mixed up. You start when Edgeworth gets back to his office, then you flashback to when he flew back on a plane, then go to Gatewater Land which still takes place BEFORE the first case, and THEN a flashback case, and finally you’re back to present day. I just like it when a story is told in chronological order, but obviously that’s more of a nitpick because I’m sure that didn’t bother most people.

[@Chaki21]

Out of curiosity, what's your opinion on Dual Destinies ? This game can also be a bit messy in its timeline

[@jadonh]

@@Chaki21 Oh yeah, I had a bit of the same annoyance with that game as I did with Ace Attorney Investigations 1, but I feel like it was executed better in Dual Destinies. The first case takes place right before the last case, and the rest of the game is basically about how you get to that point, so there’s a more justified reason as to why they ordered the cases the way they did. With AAI1, though, it didn’t really feel like there was a concrete reason for starting the game where it did except for maybe introducing the existence of the smuggling ring? But that’s kind of a loose reason. I still really like Dual Destinies despite that, though. I think the order of events was handled much better than Ace Attorney Investigations, in any case.

[@pixlelixr]

I actually really liked turnabout samurai

[@DerpyHiro]

Understandable! It was the case that hooked me into the series

[@lukasvokurka9224]

I personally like the 3rd case in AA1 more than it's second case. It might be a bit longer than it needed to be, but the investigation sections were for me more interesting and the same thing about the characters (at least most of them). From the main games I think the best 3rd case is from Dual Destinies and the worst one probably from AA2 or AA3.(also when I played the second case in DD for the first time I thought it was boring, but now outside of that Jinxie girl I think it actually isn't that bad.)

[@DerpyHiro]

oh yea I like AA1's third case more than its second one as well. AA1's third case is what got me hooked on the series

[@donnie1774]

There’s way too many amazing third cases for me to consider this syndrome existing Rite, golden court, inherited, academy, departed soul, sure there’s like a couple bad ones but the good outweighs the bad heavily I actually believe there’s a first case syndrome, where people give first cases a pass for being much simpler, even after games like AJAA, SOJ and aai2 proving the first case doesn’t need to be handholdy and/or basic

[@diesakuma367]

Well first cases are a tutorial cases so thats why there are weak(except 3-1,4-1,AAI2-1) Spoilers to 1 cases in every AA 1-1 the best tutorial case simple engaging for beginners and short which is good 2-1 the worst tutorial case imo drags,logic is questionable,mystery sucks,culprit is the worst part 3-1 3rd my fav first case bulid up the villain, mia,diego mystery is fine logic in some areas not really,phoenix is very annoying 4-1 my Fav first case story is good(at the beginning since the rest of AJ is trash) logic is good culprit is good and very unexpected which is fresh and it is not long 5-1 very basic works as tutorial, kinda boring, and it drags a little bit 6-1 better version of 5-1 for sure since worldbuilding the theme of the game, introduction to seance(which I like) culprit is funny af(my fav 1st culprit in fact) AAI-1 well its mediocre for me,works as tutorial, mystery is simple,nice that we see Maggey again, but it can drag a bit AAI2 -1 my 2nd fav 1st case builds up the story, culprit is good, mystery is good, De Killer appearence is interesting, and the case did not dragged for me) 1st case in crossover-mediocre simple,culprit is fine I guess, mystery is underwhelming,dont like how they did not explained who hit the victim TGAA -1 Oh boy OH BOY I hate this case so much Drags and drags on and on, Mystery is underwhelming, logic dont exist in some areas characters act dumb to move the plot(the F**king stake or picking up the gun) but at least the culprit is enjoyable so at least this saves from being the worst 1st case TGAA 2-1 WAY better than previous one, 4th my fav actually mystery is good, culprit is well done,logic is good(even the stabbing part is fine) also we play As Susato This is my ranking I hope that in AA7 1st case will be good

[@DerpyHiro]

Yup the later games do nullify third case syndrome quite a bit

[@donnie1774]

@@diesakuma367 even if they’re a tutorial, certain cases prove they don’t have to be as basic as the majority are.

[@diesakuma367]

@@donnie1774 I wholeheartedly agree Just because they are a tutorial does not mean they should be filler

[@theerrantwanderer]

I think GAA1-1's pacing made sense for the character. Sure, it may not be enjoyable to us, but remember he is a non law student who is fighting for his life in court. That kind of situation can be really stressful at times, and you can easily lose it and get overcome with emotion, which happened to Ryusouke (sorry can't spell his name off the top of my head) multiple times in this trial. Also, the situation with the steak: at that point in the trial, it was not established whether or not the second steak was relevant in the case, so he couldn't just easily ask for it to be presented- hence the long winded approach. Remember that what seems obvious in hindsight might not be so obvious in the heat of the moment- double so if your life is at stake

[@spouwnerring]

Ok so from worst to best, here's my list for all of the 3rd cases (excluding PLVSPW because it's not cannon and I've forgotten what it's called). Tournabout Serenade (1) The Kidnaped Tournabout (2) Tournabout Big Top (3) Tournabout Samurai (4) Tournabout Academy (5) The Rite Of Tournabout (6) Recipe For Tournabout (7) The Return Of The Great Departed Soul (8) The Adventure Of The Runaway Room (9) The Inherited Tournabout. (10) Those numbers are there so I don't have to constantly type the case titles in full. Yes, I could just use agnorims, however some of these have really long and I have a feeling that I'm going to get confused if type so so many capital letters in a sentence. Also Tournabout Serenade and Tournabout Samurai have the same anorim so, for example, so there is that as well.

[@DerpyHiro]

Yea the top 3 and bottom 3 in your list are to be expected

[@CozyPawsRae]

Third case of PLVSPW is “The Golden Court” I believe. I love that case, PLvsPW has always been so amazing to me

[@spouwnerring]

@@DerpyHiro1 I think this case would have been a lot better if the body was never moved (have some of Machi's DNA found the vent and have that be the reason for his indictement), have Machi be a little bit older so it's believeble that he could have firred the weapon, have the weapon be of a different calliber and finaly have Daryan's hair be a wig so it's believeble that Roman wouldn't know who his killer. Also, why can't the judge just render Valant's NDA null and void? I'm pretty sure that he has sufficient enough cause seeing as this is a MURDER case. 2 NGL I got so bored playing this case that I was absolutly furious when Meekins was of the hook only for me to have to clear Pops's name next, as I did care about her at all. Also was already really liking having Gumshoe by my sidekick and so I got pretty miffed when I was forced to partner up with Kay (though I did grow to like her in Tournabout A Blaze). Also also, the rival duo you face of against I'm also not a fan of. Shi-na contributes and can be writting out (yes I know you can't actually do that as she is the penultimate boss, but I still think she should have been given more to do) and Lang pre-redemption arc was complete idiot who made so many errors in his logic and arguments that I couldn't take him seriously (it didn't help that Lang also constantly kicked you out each you made progress in order for him to basically hog all the glory.) Finaly, I'm not a fan that Lance is taken down via an investigation instead of a cross-exam. 3 Not fan of the love triangle, the fact that the killer only shows up at the 2nd half of the case (that go's for all cases that do that) and I wish that Acro glued the cape onto the bust as an attempt to purposefully frame Max as I think that is something that Acro would do. Also I think the boss fight should have had the motive be dicussed 1st before they talked about the actual crime. 4 this case should've been a 2 day case with the final trial being split up into 2. 5 My main problem with this case is Means himself. His motive is spoon fed to you after you beat him and set motive has nothing to do with his idioligy. The game presents a really black and white view on the idioligies between the 2 profs (a KZbinr called Lazy Lee made a video on this) and when Means does his villain transformation he becomes intimitating for just a few minutes, but than it all crumples a way due his students undermining him and Blackquil asaulting him (I'm pretty sure that L'Belle is the only killer that doesn't get shanked). 6 OK, so both Tarust and Beleeb are both rebals and yet why didn't they just inform Dhurke that the hide-out was comprimised and that their covers were about to be blown? I'm sure Dhurke would have been able to get them and the weapons to safety. 7 I found Tigre and Viola the absolute highlights of this case, however the no pressing rule was BS. 8 this case was great ontill it was revealed that Enoch was just a red hering and the boss fight against the real killer is pretty bad. 9 NGL, I kinda wish that Magnus didn't die, but was instead the final boss of the duoligy. 10 This is perfect, because it ties up loose ends, forshadows who the final boss is and seemlessly transition from logic, to logic chess to cross-exam during the boss fight.

[@DerpyHiro]

@@spouwnerring 1. There's so much that needs to be fixed with Turnabout Serenade, it would take a whole video to go over it. What do you mean by render Valant's DNA null and void? 5. Yea I watched that video. The case is a bit too black and white. 6. Yea I don't think there plan was thought out too well

[@spouwnerring]

@@DerpyHiro NDA stands for non-discloser agreement

[@TheGodIvy]

I find this quite funny cuz both case 2-3 (yes, turnabout big top) and case 2-3 in the great ace attorney games are both in my top 3 cases overall (with the 2nd one being my fave case in general)

[@DerpyHiro]

That's cool! Turnabout Big Top could've been one of my favourite cases of all time if a few things were changed

[@user-ye6zi6ph8g]

I actually really love turnabout serenade, playing around with the sound system was fun and it introduces la mirror who later becomes important in the story and it also starts of the whole overthinking the judical system thus its actually linked to the plot the only thing dumb about this really is the fact that a blind 14 year old was accused of using a gun that would dislocate his shoulder

[@Baconmutt]

I'm genuinely surprised Turnabout Sisters isn't hated as much as Turnabout Samurai. April May and Redd White are both obnoxious characters, and they reveal the killer in the beginning.

[@esdrasreis3481]

Something kinda feels wrong about considering "The Runaway Room" to be a third case, since case 2 was a investigation case, I see 'The Clouded Kokoro" as the true spiritual thrid case, and you could argue it suffers from third case sindrome

[@GoldenGooseProductions]

Great video! I always figured third case syndrome was a massive overreaction over Big Top, Serenade, and Kidnapped (and I guess Recipe, but that's only because T&T was STACKED) tbh, for me, second case syndrome is so much more real. I dislike how pathetic Redd White is in 1-2 The mystery surrounding 2-2 is boring because the only two possible suspects turn out to be the two culprits (plus, you can figure out early on that Maya didn't channel anyone since she'd be considered guilty; at least Big Top serves as a decent whodunnit with the three shady men) 3-2 is legendary, no complaints here. 4-2 isn't as bad as 4-3, but it's a lot more inconsequential I-2 is pretty solid I2-2 is also solid but it's the worst in the game for me and drags on a few hours too long I don't hate 5-2 but it's definitely the most boring and uninteresting of the game 6-2 is awesome TGAA1-2 is absolutely horrible and has very few things going for it TGAA2-2 isn't bad, but again, I'd argue it's the most inconsequential and worst of a very stacked game. For me, second cases have a 6/10 batting average for worst cases in the game whereas third cases only have a 3/10 record for worst cases (and I don't even dislike Recipe that much; just the worst in a very epic game)

[@DerpyHiro]

I never considered second case syndrome a thing but I can see why it's a thing for you. I think the only ones that are unpopular in the community's eyes are 4-2, 5-2 and TGAA1-2

[@diesakuma367]

You know Yea 2nd case syndrome I would say is a thing in AA right now 1-2 missed opportunity With White 2-2 mystery is fine just culprit is obvious and I hate Franziska in JFA 3-2 is good but double jeopardy was not done the best but ok 4-2 everything about it is forgettable(culprit,mystery,defendant is annoying the panty jokes and panty snatcher was bad also I dont like Klavier but that is about the story of AJ) 5-2 is boring, drags on forever, showing the culprit was an insult since suspense is gone) 6-2 the best 2nd case for me(villain is great,nahyuta is ok, very short case but it is an advantage here) AAI- 2 boring case but solid AAI2-2 good case but the worst in the game as you said it drags very much) 2nd case in Crossover- 2nd my fav(introduction to prosecutor, witch trials,culprit is good but it drags) TGAA 1-2 idk what to say Garbage the worst in TGAA, introduction to joint reasoning, the first is fine but later I started to despise those since it waste so much f**king time,also very boring TGAA 2-2 the worst obviously it drags on and on,mystery is underwhelming,victim being the witness is unique but also I hate the victim)

[@thegreatgonzales6813]

Gonna have to disagree on 2-2 harshly. While the culprits are obvious, the real mystery comes in the form of unravelling the motive and backstory of the murderer. You could theoretically say the same about 3-2, as the small number of new characters gives very little wiggle room for who the culprit could be. Still love 3-2 though. 2-2 also does some much needed worldbuilding, serving as a precursor to T&T's overarching plot.

[@Taranturat]

I like Monstrous alot more than Academy since Monstrous is a top 10 for me, but Academy is still very good

[@DerpyHiro]

Interesting, a lot of people have been telling me they prefer Monstrous over Academy

[@dgc1570]

OK, haven't played Investigation 2 yet; but am already loving it and possibly might come close to typing Trials and Tribulations for me

[@DerpyHiro]

Oh how far are you into it?

[@dgc1570]

@@DerpyHiro still need to finish up investigations 1, and even then there's no way to officially play the second game.

[@DerpyHiro]

@@dgc1570 Oh I assumed you already played some of Investigations 2 as you said you're loving it and that it's already close to T&T. If you want to play it, you can play the fan translated version

[@dgc1570]

@@DerpyHiro good to know, but would still like an official version tho. I'll check it out

[@ladybentley1563]

In my opinion, Investagtions 2 is my favorite game in the series. And I think it’s because EVERY case in the game is relevant to the plot and fleshes out each character wonderfully! While Trials and Tribulations would be my second favorite, I had a few issues with it. The one thing is that it’s heavily overrated in my opinion. Like to the point where some people can be annoying about it- but I’ve seen worst things in fandoms than just being annoying about one game so it’s not really all that bad and doesn’t sour my opinion of it too heavily. The other thing is I didn’t really like Godot all that much until like the last 2 cases. It’s more of a love-hate relationship when it comes to him. Otherwise, I love Trials and Tribulations and it’s probably because of Mia- like I love how savage she can be as a main character and a good unique female character that isn’t an assistant but more of a mentor. Sucks she had to die. I think what makes me love the Investigation games (despite be loathing the final case of Investigation 1 and some other cases in that first game) is because Miles Edgeworth is like my favorite character and Kay is my favorite assistant (Susato or Iris Watson would be a close second). They just have such a great relationship dynamic too in my opinion. Another thing is even if you know the twist (which I spoiled for myself- so I have no one else to blame for that), you can see how good it’s written and see the hints of it when you replay or rewatch the game. But that’s just my opinion.

[@jvheroi2603]

Ok, people might say whatever they want about Big Top, but i actually like it. When Moe is not trying to be funny, sometimes, he is a little funny, like, his serious face alone is funnier then his jokes, and he is a nice person, and Max might as well be one of my favorite defendants, mostly because he is overall fine, but when he has his moments, they are GOOD moments, take his breakdown at the start of the case, like, Billy Bob Jons isn't the worst defendant we ever had, right? Like, if you take away the love triangle stuff, him and Regina are pretty good characters, and of course, we can't talk about positive things of Turnabout Big Top without talking about Acro, right? Like, really, he is straight up in my top 3 favorite culprits, and ONLY BECAUSE I actually like Furio, especially his theme, and Godot can't be neglected (and yes, Dahlia can't be in my top 3, she is a GREAT villain, but I really hate her, and i can't put a character that i hate in my top 3 favorite culprits), and like, do I have to justify? Acro is just great, he is always so calm, he is not the kind of culprit that starts screaming, gets a JoJo face, or starts to suffocate itself with an scarf, or even makes a ghost face with it's "hat" being pressed on it's head, or even gets straight up white eyes, or starts swetting more then anything, no, Acro just keeps himself calm while Phoenix nails every single detail of Acro's plans on killing Regina, and it backfiring, and he doesn't even try so hard to defend himself, he just shoots facts and waits, while Phoenix find out a way that Acro could've used to go around that fact and still commit the murder. Also, you know the guy is a great villain when even Franziska doesn't have a reason to whip him, excluding the fact that whipping the disabled would put everyone against her, obviously, but still, and he also is pretty respectful towards Phoenix, even after everything. It reaches a point where, if Furio didn't have one of the best themes of the franchise and Godot wasn't a great character ever since case two of TaT, Acro would straight up be my favorite culprit, so even though Turnabout Big Top is one of the most hated cases of Ace Attorney, I still think that, when Big Top has something good, that something is REALLY good, people just like to think about it in the bad way. Like, if I was to do that, Turnabout Samurai would be my least favorite case, because, to me, there is not a single case in the first three games that BORED ME THAT MUCH, like, i don't care about Sal, i don't care about the kid, the girl was fine, but like, she was there, and that is it, not much to say about her, and Oldbag is WAY MORE ANNOYING then Moe, even if a lot of people disagree, that is how I see it, and yes, Powers is great, but if he wasn't in Farewell, he would be just another defendant, and nothing more, and God, Vazquez is really annoying too, good villain, but too annoying for my taste, and the Edgeworth development? Great, but if I have to pick an Edgeworth for some case as the "best that Edgeworth ever was", Samurai would NOT be my pick, probably Goodbyes or Farewell, I would think, but definitively not Samurai and not Sisters, and DEFINITIVELY not Bratworth, that one is the worst. In short, Turnabout Big Top is NOT as bad as people say, it has some good moments, it just would be 100% better without Ben/Trilo there, but hey, Samurai and Farewell would also be 100% better without Oldbag, and Reunion would be 100% better too without Hotti, as well as Samurai without Sal, like, just put someone better to be the creator, it doesn't have to be Sal, you know?

[@YooperMapping]

First case: Tutorial Second case: Heavy lore and/or new mechanics Third case: Just a case to solve Fourth case: Finale or finale setup Fifth case: Sometimes the finale

[@alchemistofsteel8099]

I don't have a problem with filler. It gives us more time with the characters

[@DerpyHiro]

I agree, filler can be fun

[@mariotheundying]

Especially in JFA, let's see how many cases you go against franziska, first there's the case with maya, that's 1, then the case with the circus, that's 2, then the case wit- wait... miles is the prosecutor, not franziska... 2 cases in total against Franziska Von Karma!! I have not played the Wright + Layton, DD and SOJ games so as of yet franziska is the prosecutor with the least cases against Phoenix

[@DerpyHiro]

@@mariotheundying Yea Franziska didn't get a lot of cases... originally Recipe for Turnabout was going to be the 4th case of Justice for All meaning Franziska would have 3 cases of prosecuting in the game. However, that case had to be cut and went to Trials and Tribulations because there wasn't enough space to put it in Justice for All

[@LilyGrace1990]

Hot take: 3rd case syndrome is inverted in DD because it is the only good case in that game. The rest are trash and almost made me wish I'd never gotten into Ace Attorney. At least 5-3 is the only proper Athena case and it does a decent job at setting her up as a character and giving you a reason to care about her. It's the only DD case I will ever play a second time.

[@tylerensminger]

Turnabout big top is linked to investigations at least

[@michaellatner975]

Honestly what i think makes some people dislike the 3rd case of most games is because they are always needlessly extended, like in 1-3 it goes on for so goddamn long, and movement from place to place takes forever while you have no idea where you have to go just to figure out you need to fucking take the shit off the vent. 2-3 is just... bigtop. 3-3 has some fun parts to it, fighting tigre in court is interesting but the fact he punishes you for pushing him is just STUPID. Fits, but stupid and annoying. Also Victor Kudo is such a waste of time that the only thing he provides is him messing up and him doing that lets us catch people out in a lie, but he just wastes our time by being so INCOMPETENT. 4-3 the infamous music video that you have to rewatch i think at minimum 7 times? THERE IS NO NEED TO CONSTANTLY LOOK AT THAT GODDAMN VIDEO SO MUCH. 5-3 is actually fine, no big complaints about it (it's more 5-2 that is hated in dual destinies) Although my complaint is the voice acting for it, pretty bad. 6-3 is pretty fun as well, but it comes after one of the best filler cases in the entire series that is Trucy's trial, so it feels a bit more bogged down by stuff than usual, oh and our favorite friend Maya GETS ARRESTED FOR MURDER FOR THE 4TH GODDAMN TIME. AA1-3 is the fucking kidnapped tournabout where everything just feels so stupid, like when you finally get a inkling that the so called victim is the culprit, the father just says "no" and goddamn buys the amusement park just so you can't investigate it! We also get a return of the probably extremely disliked old bag. AA2-3 is the BEST case 3 ever made. DGS 1-3 is amazing actually having evidence be tampered with in the middle of a trial and it hasn't been done before, not many people see it coming and not everyone pays enough attention to realize that stuff has been altered. Downside of it is that it is probably THE shortest case out of all other case 3's and it feels like it could have gone longer DGS 2-3 is super fun but unfortunately we have albert who is probably one of the more annoying defendants we have to deal with considering the fact he would rather be killed than have his invention be torn apart. Sure he is a scientist at heart, but let us do our jobs PLEASE ALBERT. Other than complaints about mr Harebrayne it's a pretty nice case. TLDR: Starting off the creators had no idea TF they were doing but got better as time went on, that's why.

[@tsizzle7883]

I personally think anybody who likes Recipe for Turnabout MORE than Kidnapped or Serenade is absolutely deluding themselves.

[@DerpyHiro]

That must mean there's a lot of deluded people then because I ran a poll on my community tab for least favourite case between the first 5 third cases in the series and Kidnapped and Serenade are beating Recipe comfortably

[@tsizzle7883]

@@DerpyHiro There being a lot of deluded people in the Ace Attorney community is certainly no surprise to me lol

[@diesakuma367]

​@@tsizzle7883 ​ could you explain your reasoning? Since I think Kidnapped is the 2nd worst for me(1st is Serenade) Recipe is the 4th one for me

[@tsizzle7883]

@@diesakuma367 Alright, lets see. I think in short, it's about context. Serenade is by no means a good case. The mystery is sloppy, the prosecution's opening premise is pure nonsense, scenes are replayed in mind-numbing excess. There's some positive points, but saying it's not a good case is fair. You know what's also not a good case? Turnabout Corner. Turnabout Corner sucks, a lot, in different but no less significant ways. So Turnabout Serenade doesn't feel like an isolated incident. If half the game in AJAA are bad, I think it's more to do with AJAA than 4-3 itself. it's not good, but it doesn't FEEL like "the worst case in the series", it feels like a symptom. It's a very similar case with the Kidnapped Turnabout. Kidnapped is a very mediocre case, but it is carried tremendously by 1. introducing Kay, 2. introducing Lang, 3. Meekins and Oldbag being amusing to observe. But 3 out of 5 cases in AAI, maybe more depending on who you ask, are mediocre at best. What's so glaring about a guy pretending to be kidnapped in a game like AAI? But Recipe? Recipe has no excuses. Recipe is in T&T, a game a lot of people call the best in the series, the first game in the series to really have an "overarching plot" in the sense we've come to know it. Recipe's immediate contemporaries are Turnabout Memories, Turnabout Beginnings, The Stolen Turnabout, and the legendary Bridge to the Turnabout. And in the middle of all these bangers, we have, what? A case with a cartoonishly outlandish twist, an old man with an openly discussed uniform fetish, an overwhelmingly uncomfortable stereotype who I'm not sure is transphobic or homophobic but definitely at least one of them. And to top it all off, Godot is prosecuting, which applies to other cases but it's never a positive. To summarize: Serenade is a crummy case in a game that's 50% crummy case, Recipe is an island of no redeeming qualities in a see of otherwise great game. IMHO. And at least Big Top has some good gags.

[@sahelebrahimal-wasti4829]

In my opinion spirit of justice and apollo justice ace attorney have the best ever 3rd cases. So what is your opinion?

[@DerpyHiro]

In my opinion, TGAA1's 3rd case is the best

[@diesakuma367]

Am i the only one who liked Turnabout Samurai more than Turnabout Sisters Sure its longer but more enjoyable Also Dee Vasquez is better than Redd White

[@DerpyHiro]

You're not the only one. Turnabout Samurai is what got me hooked on the series so I definitely prefer that to Turnabout Sisters. However, more people definitely like Turnabout Sisters. I did a community poll a while back on if people liked Turnabout Sisters or Turnabout Samurai more and 76% of people voted Turnabout Sisters. The poll had around 1000 votes so that's a decent sample size as well

[@diesakuma367]

@@DerpyHiro well they probably like becasue of introduction to maya, edgeworth and ofc DL-6, But the pacing in that case is not well executed And ofc Redd White is A such a waste of potential(he could have a great villain for the first game Von karma is great but only for one case tho)

[@DerpyHiro]

@@diesakuma367 Yea I mean the case introduces those characters but that doesn't mean the case is the reason I love those characters. I never really understood why people would give positive points just because some cases introduced main characters. Introducing a main character doesn't really seem like that much of a feat

[@diesakuma367]

@@DerpyHiro Yea this is a BIG problem when people judge the cases(I only judge cases based on characters introduction becasue I am stuck between some of them with judging For example Kidnapped turnabout and Serenade - I despise both of them but in Kidnapped we see Kay and Lang but this is only a excuse to judge Imo)

[@aprostateprofit5602]

I didn't really like Turnabout Samurai and Turnabout Big Top, but Recipe for Turnabout was actually dope

[@emil-9859]

Me watching this knowing damn well I started playing yesterday. Also is there any actual murder mystery cases in the franchise? Thought the first two cases were fun I'm not the biggest fan of the culprit being revealed in the first 2 seconds

[@DerpyHiro]

Yea not a good idea to watch this video but after those first 2 cases, they will not reveal any culprits in the first game. A lot of the games do reveal the culprit in the first case but after that, the culprit is usually a mystery

[@emil-9859]

@@DerpyHiro ohh thank god, the cases were fun but I really wanted more mystery. Thought I did spoil myself the culprit of chapter 3 accidentally and I think chapter 4 is the final one? And I'm sure that dahlia is the final enemy as she is over the whole internet, I've seen most people call her the junko of AceAttorney so yeah I dunno

[@dannysmi7162]

@@emil-9859 Dahlia is way better than Junko. Junko is not that good.

[@emil-9859]

@@dannysmi7162 yeah I assumed so as I don't really like Junko, but I haven't gotten to that part so I can't really have an opinion on her yet

[@DerpyHiro]

@@emil-9859 Case 4 is the final case of the main story but there is a 5th case which is a bonus case. It's way longer than all the other cases in the game and if you want to play some of the games past the trilogy, you should probably play that one because it introduces an important character

[@doutorquem4279]

I wouldnt say the Third Cases (At least in the original Trilogy) are Filler. Because it has relevance in the Themes of each Game, Its suttle, but if you analize these cases, you can see how they affect the prosecutors and tells about very much about them. Even Turnabout Big Top... For as bad as it can be. Yeah, they are not as conected with the Plot but, they are focused on the Characthers.

[@theoci4]

Hot take: AA1’s third case is the best one in the game

[@DerpyHiro]

that's a really spicy take considered Turnabout Goodbyes and Rise from the Ashes is in the same game

[@kusu4059]

i personally tend to rate the case on the culprit, the turnabouts, the character more than the plot itself. tbf i actually prefer stand alone cases like turnabout big top or rise from the ashes, than cases major to the plot like Bridge to turnabout, which is really cool but to me has an uncanny and unfinished ending with dalia and the all kurain evocation plot just never brought back again

[@Game_InSky]

Honestly I only think 3 games really had bad third cases, though 3 out of 10 is still qutie a bit. People sleep on turnabout samurai IMO. As a case it is very filler, but the character moments are great (it is the first time you see Edgeworth grasping at straws, and it is hillarious every time). The kidnapped turnabout is a great mystery, it's just unfortunate that its characters absolutely suck. The red herrign character is just weird for the sake of being weird. the culprit is forgetable. I don't even think they give a concrete reasoning as to why the mruder happened and it also takes some weird turns (and overstates its welcome a bit). However, Big Top, Recipe and especially Serenade deserve the bad reputation they have. Big Top is probably the most enjoyable out of the three because it's at least an itneresting dumpster fire to look at with some good elements. The only thign Recipe has going for it is its culprit, the rest of the case is just amazingly boring. Serenade... handholds you. It's a third case, and it handholds you. Why? You enter the second day of court and the game just goes "btw here is the motive". You get to the recess and Phoenix hands you over the solution to the mystery. Like, wow. Thanks for letting me play this game and trying to solve the mystery on my own. And that is on top of all the other complains outlined in the video. I also felt like the case was really boring as a whole, you only get to see one of the other band members. Neither Machi nor Lamiroir are particularily interesting characters. Daryan does too little to carry the case even if it was good.

[@DerpyHiro]

Yea Kidnapped as a good mystery but I don't think most people care about the mysteries in these games which is why I think it's considered one of the worst cases. And yea the way they handle the evidence in Turnabout Serenade is... not great

[@diesakuma367]

Actually Kidnapped turnabout mystery was decent but just the rest of case is just boring (I like the thief mechanic-way better than joint reasoning) Serenade should evaporate from existence, also yea the fact phoenix gives the firecrackers(I think i dont remember) is dumb(the card make sense since it was forged)

[@DerpyHiro]

@@diesakuma367 yea he gave the firecrackers

[@TheBlueLink3]

I’d say Serenade was the least hand-holdy case in that game. It actually felt like Apollo got to stand on his own two feet with little to no help. That’s a big reason why I think it’s a better case than the 4th one for that game.

[@Uragan00829]

I mean like: Turnabout Samurai was first "detective" case, it was great. 2-3 is alright, overhated in my opinion (2-1 was far worse). 3-3 was really good, I like it much more than 2-2 where a lot of questions were left unanswered. What is wrong with people?

[@Electron-qg1oy]

I love turnabout samurai mostly because of Cody hackins

[@TheAzulmagia]

Honestly, I'm of the opinion the original Trilogy's third cases weren't that bad. They just have little issues like going on a bit too long or a number of unpleasant characters. Or a 31-year-old man trying to marry a 16-year-old. 5-3 was kinda dull but at least set up some of the plot with Athena and Blackquill, and 6-3 was the best of Phoenix's cases in that game. Turnabout Serenade is probably the only one I'd call an outright stinker since it doesn't really do much to advance any of Apollo Justice's overarching plot beyond introducing Lamroir (who barely matters in the long run) and Valant.

[@Christian-gr3gu]

What? Turnabout academy is the worst one, the monstrous turnabout was fun, but the acadamu spent too little on the actual killer

[@DerpyHiro]

Not according to the fanbase. Monstrous definitely seems to be the most hated in Dual Destinies

[@theerrantwanderer]

Really? I actually liked Monstrous Turnabout, but probably only because I like Trucy Wright, and this was the only case where she had somewhat of a major role. She was good in Apollo Justice, and it was a shame she was reduced to a bit character in the later games

[@nicetrichek]

What?? I love the Steel Samurai case so much tf

[@leoluna7412]

The Toneido is my favorite non final case in all of Ace Attorney. So there.

[@gdassspar6nr204]

To be honest it's my least favourite of all aa cases

[@leoluna7412]

@@gdassspar6nr204 You know what fair enough, everyone has their own opinions and almost nobody's are outright wrong. I just really liked Uendo as a witness, and Blackquill and Nahyuta's interactions were highly enjoyable to me. I don't know why you dislike it, but I can think of some reasons it could be dislikable, and I'm sure I'm in the minority here

[@gdassspar6nr204]

@@leoluna7412 I'm not against your opinion she just annoys me

[@leoluna7412]

@@gdassspar6nr204 Geiru? Because she annoys me too hehe

[@GalRosalina]

Im so mad too about Recipe for Turnabout cuz I just finished it today and I was so hyped at the idea of a fake Phoenix Wright going around and ruining your life but if it wasnt for the fucking CARDBOARD BADGE fooling EVERYONE like come on dude they couldve come up with some stupid shit to justify phoenix's badge being stolen and therefore explains how Tigre fooled everyone but hey what can ya do

[@nadimls3672]

I gotta say, the third case from the first game i love it til i die. On TAT Recipe Turnabout, i really liked it even entertained very much. The good ones i would give it to Apollo Justice and Dual Destinies. On the second game, gotta say i barely die cringe of playing it lol except Acro is the only good one within the case.

[@dgc1570]

I didn't care for case 3 in the first game or the second, but I absolutely loved the third case in the third game. I also enjoyed the third cases in the great ace attorney

[@DerpyHiro]

Yea Recipe for Turnabout has its fair share of lovers. (pun intended) It's hard to say whether Samurai or Recipe is more popular as reception to Samurai is pretty lukewarm all around whereas with Recipe, some people love it and then some people hate it

[@dgc1570]

@@DerpyHiro interesting

[@Christian-gr3gu]

Playing dual destines, yeah the third case was the weakest i say, even though i liked it

[@DerpyHiro]

Yea people tend to be split on that one

[@Christian-gr3gu]

@@DerpyHiro honestly i thought the monsterus turnabout was ok, like i totally didn’t expect the locked room to actually open up

[@TallTapper]

1-3 is kino

[@ItsShaz1]

Interesting

[@legobeylov7470]

Ok im gonna say it does exist, turnabout samurai while important too long the entire second day is cut from the anime, literally anime dud it better. Turnabout bigtop is a thing, i feel the anime actually made it better. Turnabout kitchen or whatever its called while its fun i liked how the anime did it better. Turnabout serenade..... flashbacks to things literally just happened and the unskipable song over and over. I have no real problems with either of the dual destinies or SoJ 3rd case. Now the third case of the chronicles games honestly i loved. Id have to replay the third one from layton vs wright

[@diesakuma367]

You know whats funny? 5-2 is basically a copy of 2-2 We meet our assistant,culprit is obvious and dumb,there is a blackmail involved, The culprit keeps incrimating himself each testimony,had "witnessed" the actual crime The culprit is full of himself We have to prove that there was an accomplice And they mentioned the broken object when they should not have WOW just WOW COMPLETE COPY

[@DerpyHiro]

haha I think you know these cases a lot better than I do. I don't remember the blackmail in 2-2 and I don't remember the broken object in 5-2. It's definitely not something I would notice is a copy

[@diesakuma367]

@@DerpyHiro well I recently replayed DD just so I can see if my opinion would change Well thanks to that I hate 5-2 even more 5-1 I dislike from the get-go but 5-3 is Interesting I actually thought that 5-3 was one of the best but its turn out that is it one of the weakest of 3rd cases for me and 5-5 for me is Well the part with Athena trauma is very good but after that(when we figured the phantom) I started to dislike it(my opinion was the same as before about 5-5) Currently Im replaying SOJ and so far my opinion has not changed(Imo SOJ is WAY better than DD the only case I am not a fond of is 6-4 cause of the pacing with the rest of the game but still its a good case on its own) For me DD is the 3rd worst AA And SOJ is 5th my fav AA Edit:I forgot to mention DLC case Honestly its one of my fav in this game(so well done) Edit again: SOJ for me its 4th my fav rn Because I dislike some parts in TGAA 1

[@TheBlueLink3]

I think calling it a complete copy is a huge stretch.

[@diesakuma367]

@@TheBlueLink3 well maybe But for me it is an entire copy Find me something which is not copied And I will believe you that 5-2 is not a direct copy of 2-2

[@TheBlueLink3]

@@diesakuma367 I actually misread your original comment as you saying that it's a copy of case 1-2. My bad there, though I still very much disagree. For one, spirit channeling plays no role in the case. The yokai angle is pretty unique for the series. The nature of the "locked room" mystery is different, as are the general courtroom shenanigans. The twist with the wrestler guy is completely different. We don't get to meet the victim before he dies. You don't get your item stolen in case 2-2. Those are some differences off of the top of my head. There are some similarities, but no more than other cases that have similarities to them.

[@Alexandertheonlyokay]

I really liked the 3rd case in the first game I enjoyed just funny characters

[@Veriox22]

I have to say that ace attorney fans are too obsessed with the plot. No, a case doesn't have to be fully relevant to the overarching plot to be great. It can achieve greatness on its own.

[@DerpyHiro]

100%

[@Veriox22]

@@DerpyHiro By the way your videos are amazing. You are one of the best ace attorney video essay creators

[@DerpyHiro]

@@Veriox22 Thank you! That means a lot

[@niekatheunknownweirdokid]

All 3rd cases for Ace Attorney, Danganronpa and any other crime storyline ish game...are terrible.

[@DerpyHiro]

Even other story games? I just thought this was an Ace Attorney and Danganronpa thing

[@niekatheunknownweirdokid]

@@DerpyHiro well...I don't know if there are other games suffering from 3rd case syndrome but all the ones I've seen suck

[@Jamie-tt3eb]

except the great ace attorney 2 resolve.

[@TheBlueLink3]

Terrible is a reach. There are some weak 3rd cases, but there are also some incredible 3rd cases.

[@Alexandertheonlyokay]

Also the director is hot ngl

[@Ueslx.600]

3:53

[@colastan1776]

I'm sorry but Monstrous Turnabout is so much better than Turnabout Cringe Academy. And it's not even close.

[@DerpyHiro]

I'm going based off what the fanbase says. According to the AA fans, The Monstrous Turnabout is worse. At least that's what it looks like when I search for opinions

[@diesakuma367]

I can see why academy might be worse(I still think academy is better but like maybe 5% better for me since we play as Athena,also why bother bring Klavier if he is not important just to insult the fanbase I suppose) Like Edgeworth is more important and Klavier on the DD cover is bigger which signifies he has a bigger role but he doesnt-a pathetic excuse of a fanservice

[@DerpyHiro]

@@diesakuma367 Yea there's a lot of those moments where the cover of a game lies about the prominence of a character. Once AA7 comes out, we have to be wary about that

[@colastan1776]

@@DerpyHiro Yeah, it's true that the fandom has a different general consensus, but I absolutely disagree. (spoilers for both 5-2 and 5-3 obviously) The culprit is much better in 5-2 imo and the case overall is more enjoyable - it's a simple fun case that isn't trying too hard to be edgy or deep. While 5-3 has the whole "DaRk aGe Of LAw" theme going on (which doesn't work at all... literally the only thing that "proves", or should I say shows it, is Means repeating "The end justifies the means" over and over... it gets so pretentious and corny so quickly and the fact that the game has the AUDACITY to even pretend that someone else other than Means is the killer is so embarrassing. While L'belle might not be the most complex killer the series had, at least he's just a straight up entertaining villain - and he doesn't need to try so hard as Means does to be a good culprit. The rest of the Turnabout Academy sucks too imo, the students are as bland as it gets, Klavier appears for no reason (also his 3D model looks AWFUL), and the case gets sooo boring and cringe since it's so obvious that Means is the killer... Monstrous Turnabout might have dragged in some parts of it, but overall it was a mostly consistent case, plus Blackquill and Fullbright debuted in it (and as you can guess, they're amazing characters, which cannot be said about anyone from 5-3 unfortunately).

[@diesakuma367]

@@colastan1776 you make good points However 5-2 is basically a copy of 2-2 Which is why I think 5-3 is better tham 5-2(but like 5%) We meet our assistant(Athena/Maya)case 2 shows us who the culprit is There is accomplice(Filch/April May) Culprit is full of himself There is blackmail involved Culprit keeps incrimating himself each testimony(also they are dumb) Redd White and L'belle mentioned the broken object when they should not have COMPLETE FRICKING COPY If 5-2 was not a copy I think 5-3 would be worse for me

[@spaghettiisyummy.3623]

3-6 literally made my Cry.

[@shieldsdown227]

i mean. the adults having attraction to children/young adults. i get where youre coming from but

[@DerpyHiro]

wait what case are you talking about?

[@shieldsdown227]

@@DerpyHiro every third case in the trilogy

[@DerpyHiro]

@@shieldsdown227 I'm really confused, how does that apply to all the third cases lol

[@diesakuma367]

@@DerpyHiro well AA1 Sal manella with maya AA2 you know big top AA3 Kudo with maggey AA4 well its in 2nd case not really in 3rd(thank god) AA5 Hugh with Juniper(he is 24 and she is 17 or 18) AA6,TGAA1, TGAA2, AAI,AAI2 And crossover there is none I know you listed only in trilogy but I wanted to include other AA as well Edit: AAI2 Well Raymond with Kay and Ema but this is a stretch

[@DerpyHiro]

@@diesakuma367 I guess it applies to some but it's not really a trend for all 3rd cases. Really it only applies to the original trilogy which has a LOT of examples of that, AAI1 with Larry and AAI2 with Raymond. Hugh doesn't count because he never liked Juniper, it was just a rumour