"Why do we need nerfs in PVE?"

[@GotDangProblematic]

Because if they dont nerf things in PVE Saltagreppo will cry

[@Captain-Nikolai]

fr bro acts like hes top pve player yet bitches and moans about people having a fair chance to beat him in worlds first raids and more. the dudes a bum. weird how he didn't complain about the same things being used over an over again up until he nearly lost worlds first attempt to players who dont stream 24/7 and sit on their ass all day.

[@davidobrien2841]

If they kept it the way it was, every time they released something new they’d have to keep making everything more and more powerful, which makes balance harder and harder. Aka power creep.

[@wolfgang5359]

​@@davidobrien2841And yet I have yet to see such power creep. The only time I have seen power creep in Destiny 2 was the Craftening, and we all know that was unintentional.

[@davidobrien2841]

@@wolfgang5359 what 💀what gun are you still using from vanilla d2 besides sun shot. That’s called power creep bruh lol

[@wolfgang5359]

@@davidobrien2841 That isn't power creep. That is the growth of the game. When I mean power creep, I mean in a sense how the Still Hunt + Celestial combo was considered. I wouldn't consider it myself on the fact of Bungie increasing the difficulty to the point that it was basically the only viable option. Example, what call was used the most against the Witness and with what weapon. Hunter and Still Hunt. Reason for that is because the Witness was basically only taken down in a reasonable time with crits, which both the class and weapon worked with perfectly. Warlocks weren't that good as the Well nerf couldn't help in just tanking the Witness' attacks and Titans literally have nothing as the Witness can't even be weakened. So again, show me where the power creep is.

[@cameroncurtis7261]

It comes down to a fundamental issue that too many exotic weapons fulfill the same role functionally, and that damage is king. For example, no one is going to use 4th horseman with choir in its current state. So they have to buff horseman. But by doing that, maybe merciless loses its damage niche. The variety of exotics in modern d2 is great, but bloody hell is it hard to justify using them when most have better counterparts, and will get you laughed out of endgame raids/dungeons/gms by toxic fireteams

[@ImMrMes33ks]

Thats why they need to stop making Damage be an exotic perk and just make them synergizes differently with armors or Verbs. (EX. Like make Actium and S.B do something unique together) Damage needs to stop being the characteristic of these new exotics. Choir literally does what Cerberus +1 does but with more damage and "finite" ammo nothing new but the animation.

[@LosLangkos]

Find the mistake: A streamer (someone who plays this game for a living) wants to have a challenge in the game he plays 24/7. At the same time, at world first, will use any glitch/exploit to reach the goal. I wonder if these top-end players could pay for the servers alone.... without the 95% of scrubs playing it for fun. One can only hope Bungie has thought more about it than this one.

[@Baradiele]

That would imply the capacity of thinking, something they clearly demonstrated they don't have

[@smokedout7129]

I don't mind challenge especially in endgame activities. I do mind them trying to make everything unnecessarily "challenging" because people don't understand if you do something enough you'll get better at it and then it becomes easy. Also there's a point when things are nerfed that it becomes a question of "why would I use this?" and then it sits in the vault because there's better stuff to use. I understand some exotics will always be better than others because of how they function and depending on what you're playing, but there should be no subpar or bad exotics with or without a catalyst attached.

[@LeBron_Games]

Damn. Choir of One was one of the few exotics from the past few years that I've actually had a lot of fun with, but I knew that once I started seeing Datto and Aztecross' videos on it that it would get nerfed.

[@wolfgang5359]

Worst part with the "fix" is if they go and reduce reserves as a whole, base Choir is only going to have literally 2 mags. 5 shots total for hip fire each mag. We all know Bungie is going to screw things up like this so is there any surprise these nerfs keep coming in to ruin the fun.

[@ImMrMes33ks]

after the 12-minute mark this comes across as someone who doesn't solo LFG. Sometimes having the OP weapon because you Q with people who refuse to equip things other than the sword on the witness or double Primary. This is the whole DIV nerf topic all over again. Keep the busted thing in the game and just disable it in the 1% activities that people are afraid of it being abused in. or want the challenge to exist in. And if people think it's unfair, they didn't have this thing when they solo'd whatever dungeon it's an "Oh well" situation. Like you still did the challenge your way and others did it theirs. The result is the same and no one but you cares about the method at which you did it. if it's that important to you wear the badge and brag about it to your friends and see how many of them are excited for you. other than that no one it looking at your title and going "Wow i'm so jealous of that."

[@lifeafterthenr454]

Simple solution. Add a modifier in GM’s where you can customize the power cap. Imagine that the normal power cap which for most GM’s this season is 2020 nowww what if this “modifier” was set to 2040-2050. You’re vastly under leveled and it wouldn’t matter what cheese or glitch exploit, it would be like a heaven or hell mode or Dante must die mode as in Devil May Cry. Seems to me, it’s too hard to nerf things for one said activity without spreading it to another activity. PVP and PVE shouldn’t be influenced simultaneously when these nerfs/buffs happen

[@wolfgang5359]

Saw that last sentence and couldn't agree more. It all started with YAS back in Season of the Deep and Bungie just keeps on screwing their own balance.

[@wolfgang5359]

For me, with the current state of the game, I have constantly felt the nerfs to PvE are unwarranted. In part because some of the nerfs like the stuff coming to Hunters soon is something that shouldn't even be applied to PvE as all of them are to address PvP. Bungie for some reason can't balance them separately despite doing so with stuff like increasing cooldowns in PvP only. I remember when Well was actually good, when Golden Gun was able to do 999,999 damage and Thundercrash wasn't just tickling targets. Biggest thing, I remember when the only things that could one-shot us were wipe mechanics. Now I look at Destiny and wonder where the fun went. Limited to 50% refund on super related exotics, ammo economy being absolutely trash even with finder mods, weapons doing the equivalent of a toothpick to Godzilla, and so much that it feels like Bungie is trying to kill Destiny. That is my reasoning for saying no, Bungie should not be nerfing PvE.

[@alexlunsford6562]

I don’t mind a buff or nerf to things but like the new auto rifle is getting a ammo nerf that’s the thing I hate most cause then u gonna have to run ammo finders and scavenger mods to the max depending on how bad the nerf is

[@topical6574]

Things in PvE sometimes do need nerfs, absolutely. If something is overwhelmingly topping the competition (Stillhunt) it might deserve a hit. The issue is, we never have something as egregious as stillhunt. Choir of One is not nearly on that level. It had high burst damage, for high cost, and a little minigame of managing your ammo with ADS shots mixed in to save your busts for yellow bars. I don't care about the divinity + choir bug nerf, that's what ever. The issue is when you tune down its reserves. This gun cannot handle lower reserves, it will not be nearly as useable. You'd have to either throw away all resist mods for reserve mods, or you'd have to spec completely into orb gathering to use special finisher a lot. As Lightfall killed builds in Destiny 2 and removed mods that were cool and unique for different weapon types and builds, we no longer have a way to spec into a weapon like Choir of One. Bungie does this to themselves, the heavy handed mod for example was a great step for build crafting, we could've made new mods for different weapon types, but Bungie got afraid and nerfed Guardians across the board because they couldn't handle the 'power creep'. They actually consider old season of the dawn mods like Grenade launcher charge, rapid kills grant an 'armour charge' now, as seasonal mods. Seasonal mods are actually just not having to pick up orbs, that's what build crafting has come to. Bungie need to just stop nerfing us, and buffing enemies. Giving us back old Season of the Dawn mods wont break the game, it would just make builds different for once. Right now, every single character I have no matter what subclass or weapon they are using, they all use the same mods with a different colour.

[@flamingwayz7964]

I understand and agree with nerfing Choir, but they are nerfing it in the completely wrong way. I think Choir of One fits a "versatile workhorse that is efficient at killing ads, but is also capable of occasionally bursting down majors" way better than "fourth horseman but with range". By only nerfing the ammo reserves, and to this extent, will make it not worth running in a loadout as your "ad-clear" weapon, and hence will lose viability serving this function compared to any other exotic/special ad-clear option, hence people will ONLY use it as a "ranged fourth horseman". The reason the gun is OP is because of its total DPS on bosses. Nerfing the ammo solves this problem, but imo destroys it in the niche where it fits perfectly. If they only nerfed the DPS of the alt-fire by 20-30% instead of nerfing the ammo reserves to the ground, It would still be a good choice for your ad-clear in a build while also maintaining the ability to burst down majors. It would still be half-decent against bosses, but nowhere near meta DPS.

[@raptordoesyoutube107]

On one hand you got people who put no effort into anything and want the reward handed to them on a silver platter. On the other hand, you got people who are massochists and only get turned on when a pixel character beats them into submission…you just can’t please everyone at the same time.

[@roninxcvii78]

In all of D2’s lifecycle, there have been metas that have come and gone. Some were great, others were trash, but there have always been things in the sandbox that have required nerfs, and plenty of things that have made the community scratch their heads and ask ‘why nerf this?’. Bungie has their ‘philosophy’, if you can even call it that, about how they want the game to play. Personally, I can understand some nerfs, I can despise others, and I even have a small list of things that I WANT nerfed. (Looking at you threaded specter in PvP). I do wish there was a bit more back and forth between us and Bungo when it comes to balancing. Like how they posted about Choir of One, I wish we had more of a heads up about changes instead of seeing it in a TWAB and being blindsided in some cases. It all comes down to Bungo when things need or don’t need a nerf. Not sure if my rant was enlightening but, eh, we’re Destiny players, what else can we do? 😂

[@siffumetsu271]

For me if something is completely out preforming id keep it in for several months or weeks and slowly start bringing others up. Then once more people are liking the feeling of others then nerf the big one to bring it in line. The hole nerf or nothing mentality is just boring i want some things rhat are completely busted for a time thats fine just bring it in line like what they are doing for chior of one they gave us a 40 days heads up

[@Ligh7Bulb]

They nerf coz variety is the spice of life and OP stuff reduces variety

[@Pawdukes1]

To this day (regardless of artifact mods) a majority of players still use Wish Ender when barrier champs are involved. D1 Gjallarhorn was the most chased item Destiny ever put in play. Having OP weapons worth chasing makes this game.

[@Neji1984]

Haven't seen a single person use wish ender all season

[@retroelectrical]

Wish Ender is the overall best weapon in the game, and was huge PITA to get. If there is ever a D3, I hope Wish Ender makes the jump.

[@Neji1984]

@@retroelectrical nowhere close to best overall weapon in the game

[@topical6574]

@@Neji1984 Maybe not the best, but its a very good all around weapon.

[@apolluxs]

I say: "let the power creep".

[@kristophershephard7359]

I think it just gets people when bungie releases a weapon with a lot of hype behind the mission the item etc. As soon as you get it or see someone with it you know it came out to hot. You mean to tell me no one used a divinity with the gun in testing? We have come a long way from 6 gjallarhorns on the window crota to bait and switch with fusions and izzy. I understand how tough it must be too balance fun and busted af. I remember being the only one in my group with gjallarhorn and I had to help everyone. I remember going into pvp confident with my evergreen pulse only to get smoked by teams with vog weapons. I've been in pvp games before they nerfed pocket infinity and vex and my whole team rage quit. Destiny has been in a funny place for years... and I'm fine with it. I haven't even attempted the new raid because of the toxicity and kwtd or kicked lfgs. I watched higher skilled people than me rage out at the mechanics and just haven't really wanted to go in. Maybe one day. You have a twitch or discord? I'll have to check out the rest of your videos. Maybe they will inspire me to try lol Great video btw. Positive. Subscribed.

[@ivi_lDgaming]

Trying to do pantheon with people that didn't know how to do good damage was awful😅

[@Anime-Doof]

(Sad HellDiver noises)

[@ItMeRanger]

Great video. D2 community loves to optimize the fun out of this game. In a game where a lot of end game content can be soloed, you don't need 6 of the best thing ever to clear.

[@fran8352]

Because fun is not allowed in this game. I will never forget the still hunt nerf anticipated, the game with tons of problems and they just needed to nerf the weapon to the ground, the last 24h of solo witness attempts were such a torture, first and last day of trys and 8 final stand wipes, so frustating. Now another great weapon releases and boom they fucking did it again

[@XBullitt16X]

Nerfs are necessary to a point, Bungie have bad habit of being anti fun and nerfing something just because its popular. Think of the unnecessary nerfs to PVE for Hunter.

[@tauiin]

I think the popularity is the point, developers often use metrics to determine if something is out of line, for example in warframe wukong received heavy nerfs to his AFK potential because something like 40% of players were picking him, and of the people who *were* picking him they hardly ever switched to something else, generally this is an indication of a rather stale meta where you're either picking the OvbiousChoice™ or you're doing something wrong. Generally I find what they choose to nerf a lot of the time is reasonable, bungies issue is with how *hard* they nerf stuff.

[@XBullitt16X]

@@tauiin And that's a piss poor way of interpreting metrics, nerfing whatever is popular is a very fast way to get your playerbase to hate you, just look at the current state of helldivers. You don't nerf something just because its popular. You need to understand why its popular and other things aren't. Too much of a nerf only mentality and not enough of balance philosophy, which includes buffs to others things as well, creates problems. Bungie has very negative way of changing things and framing those changes to its audience. The Warframe devs have a lot better understanding of its audience, especially these days, I'm a veteran of that game myself. Wukong had an entire rework, not just a nerf, a rework that made him not only more balanced but more fun and versatile to play, the nerfs after that sucked, but were dealt out by a measured hand, not a sledgehammer, Bungie as you say, not so much. Warframe in general has a lot less nerfs overall now, which has power crept the game, but in a great way, Warframe is in the best state its ever been and its only getting better, with Bungie its one step forward and two steps back.

[@LeBron_Games]

I feel like they should update old content that's been power crept to hell like Shattered Throne, or even just any dungeon/raid from before Witch Queen or something. Going back to those is fun but the final boss falling over to two or three magazines of a good heavy weapon is super unengaging.

[@topical6574]

Sounds like work, Bungie don't enjoy that

[@T3meee]

The game has become an ability spamfest for kiddies who don't want any kind of challenge.

[@BertSingels]

And the problem with that is ? I play for fun, I do not have fun with a high difficulty (IMHO). You might be good enough to do it, I am not. And no 'Get Good' is not the answer for me. I love this game, but not when it is too difficult for me.

[@jakebragg7515]

Far below average exotic mission in difficulty and scale. Took probably an hour to do it once on regular and once on expert for my first times including the secret chests. For a mission this bad, the weapon shouldnt be nerfed, at least not a week after release. Look at how long still hunt was OP and continues to dominate

[@topical6574]

It really wasn't that bad. The final boss is bad, the rest is pretty cool imo.

[@BertSingels]

So because you like a challenge, everybody needs to like that. Because if you take away the thing that might make it easier everybody has to play it your way. It is ok to force us 'casuals' to play the way you enjoy. But it is not ok to have an option. You could make it as hard on yourself as you want, there is no way to make it as 'easy' as I want to play following your logic. Why am I not allowed to play how I want ? What would be wrong with me having fun my way and you have fun your way ? IMHO there should be a way for everyone to play the way they want.

[@topical6574]

I don't think you watched the video.

[@BertSingels]

​@@topical6574 I did from beginning to the end, the fact that he ended on everyone should want to learn etc does not change his beginning statement.

[@phoenix5029]

@@BertSingels and that statement is what, exactly? because as rambly as he sounds, you're painting him as claiming that everyone should want to be challenged, which is not what he's saying.

[@topical6574]

@@BertSingels There is a way to play however you want in this game, you just can't do raids and one exotic mission if your way to play is solo and 'casual'. You can do things solo, you can play with others, you can do playlist activities and solo dungeons. To me, solo play is pretty casual, and I mostly play this game solo. If you WANT to get into something like Raids, content where everyone isn't on that casual playing field anymore, you are expected to learn, absolutely. He literally helps people with guides for the content seen as hard, once you learn it, its easy.

[@sando1948]

@@BertSingelsso what you’re saying is… “ I want the game , and everyone that plays it to cater to me, because I am entitled” . You can play whichever way you like, and also you can use pretty much anything you like ( within reason) in 99% of the content and be effective. What are the restrictions that you are bragging on about? That you don’t have a primary weapon that one shots bosses?

[@logankimp5563]

No

[@christisking-4m]

there are so many exotics that could just be buffed by an entire 50 percent dmg increase and still suck but no there first aim is nerf this new gun like uhh how fast they responded to this gun tells me they are just lazy when it comes to finding ways to buff other useless weapons also power creep is already in the game everywhere doing anything other than above level content feels like you cant die and doesn't matter what you use I CHANGED TO ALL BLUE GEAR for the seasonal mission and only then did I feel like the adds and bosses mattered it feels like its the same difficulty as the very first missions of the game

[@terribletimes902]

I think so. I don’t think it’s healthy for variety in this game for a special weapon to have like double the total ammo damage of every other special and then also deal like 90% the dps of specific dps options. Besides, even though the ammo thing is suspect, I actually do believe them on the div thing being a bug. Just seems really out of band. If I’m being honest, I think the same about Prismatic. It’s a lot of fun, but I just don’t like how it invalidates the majority of other subs. Which is why it’s very disappointing how other subs are catching nerfs because of Prismatic. Bungie should contain some of these nerfs to Prismatic only, leaving the stronger versions of the abilities on their respective subs and giving those subs a reason to be used.

[@asyncritus]

Agree 100%.

[@Berserker006]

Because the pvp crowd must ruin it for the other 90% of players?

[@topical6574]

Yes and no. PvP players never asked for hunter problems in PvP recently, they didn't make the class. PvP players didn't say "Nerf this in PvP, then hit PvE too." You can't blame the PvP players because Bungie are too incompetent to nerf something in PvP alone.

[@Anime-Doof]

@@topical6574Basically, PVP Players never asked for busted stuff, they’ll just crutch on it hard enough to screw over everyone else and make Crucible toxic to the touch.

[@drxdrgaming]

@@Anime-Doofyou sound myopic. There are lots of people that play both aspects of the game at a high level. Stop with the PvE vs PvP rhetoric. In any setting, would you expect players not to use the best options? Of course not. Playing the game as optimally as possible is not ruining it for anyone else. It’s not our job as players to moderate and balance the game. That’s Bungie’s job. How they choose to do so is about their philosophy. Think before you comment.

[@Anime-Doof]

@@drxdrgaming By all means, let sweats be sweats. They ought to have no problem with skill-based matchmaking/proper matchmaking balance so they’re not just going into Quickplay and pub-stomping. They also ought to be fine with the Flawless Pool in Trials of Osiris, as playing opponents at their own level shouldn’t be a big problem. Might need to rethink the 7 wins for Flawless after that, though. And yet, top players hated SBMM. They all but admitted that nobody wants to constantly play against sweats, not even other sweats. So instead, they just cannibalize every facet of PvP until the numbers dwindle to the point where nobody except them wants to set foot in Crucible. But hey, tell me I’m wrong.

[@tauiin]

@@Anime-Doof There were certainly a lot of very loud and obnoxious pvp players that complained about SBMM, and the fact that some popular pvp youtubers really hated it didn't help; but I think you're overstating it, most of the critiques I can find on places on r/CrucibleGuidebook are squarely aimed at other negative consequences players have had to deal with like longer match queues and poorer connections, not screaming about how they don't get the pwn the n00bs anymore or something like that. I'm also not sure what you're talking about when you're talking about SBMM and sweats cannibalizing pvp? Surely once SBMM was enabled it would corner off all the "sweats" that make PvP miserable into their own skill bracket, but here we are. The simple fact is that there are a lot of PvE players who simply dont want to play PvP at all unless they're forced too, and no amount of combating sweats is going to get them to play PvP consistently without some other incentive.

[@Paul-qe8dl]

Id they do no nerfs people will stop grinding easy like that.

[@laggers54]

Nerfs need to happen, the game has power crept so hard. If something hasn’t come out as intended like this new exotic it’s not really nerf it’s getting put back to its intended state. And let’s just be honest here it’s sad but true the people that don’t like nerfs are usually the people that suck at the game.

[@Phillip_Graves]

"power crept" nice buzzwords there Vox.

[@topical6574]

Choir of One wasn't going to break the game, get a grip.

[@sando1948]

@@topical6574True. The fact though , that it is more powerful than 99% of the other special exotics means that it needs to be balanced, which won’t break the game , would it?

[@topical6574]

@@sando1948 Its Bungie's job to bring up other special exotics, not keep a few good and the rest ass. The only real good specials I can think off the top of my head are Merciless, Choir, Stillhunt, Conditional and I'll say witherhoard even if its on its last legs. The others need to be able to compete, and Bungie refuse to buff the under performers. The over performers get hit instead.

[@sando1948]

@@topical6574 I agree, but if they do that, we will have the issue of content becoming completely obsolete, as he discusses in the video

[@Primer3976]

If they make a game drop better item insted of focusing on loot why not focus on the activity insted of making activity have a purpose just make it bee more fun so people will play it again and try more difficulty its no problem withe good activities its just when the activities are so bad designed when u turn it upp on hard mode its become hide for 50 minuts and just peak not dol this too activate som help or something that makes u cut threw the activity. No u need too play it for its entirety and its just boring. When was the last time bungie made a good new strike like the only one i can think of is pyramiden and lacke of shadows those two were fun and interesting. But what we have now idk they just play like they did not enjoy making them having big transit routs having push the payload. Who was it made for it aint fun too push a payload its no fun too stand on a plate. Whats fun is trying too find new paths new ways too beat it u can not doo taht withe payload and plate pushing and ball retriving and long transit routs withe one shot mobs on it. Its like they never fing learn shit they tryna put the square in circal then u tell em no but they keep doing it

[@speedweed-dw1nj]

it's fun to be OP but GM glassway used to take like 30-45 minutes in season 14 (my GM report at least), I did it yesterday in 20 and feels like a strike

[@BertSingels]

But would giving you the option (settings) to make it as hard as you want and letting everyone else also enjoy it the way they want be a beter solution ? That way nobody gets excluded, Everyone can have fun.