Why does no one understand what's important in an MMORPG anymore?

[@asmongold1341]

Yeah this is pretty much on point. I think that the automated queuing systems were really when Blizzard started to go downhill in terms of decision-making. Treating player interaction as an inconvenience was probably the worst decision they've made and probably one of the biggest reasons why WoW has such a hard time retaining players. Looking back on the memories I have from raiding, it wasn't really the bosses that I killed that I remember but rather the people that I killed them with. The success of Nostalarius (SP?) the Vanilla WoW server indicates to me that while Vanilla was a unique experience because it was new, it was also rewarding enough for people over 10 years later to come back and fully populate a private server. If Vanilla was only good because it was a new experience, then there wouldn't be so people playing on Nost. Now, the entire focus in WoW is around the endgame and everything outside of actually raiding or pvp is seen as an inconvenience. I would expect that new players coming into WoW now have literally no fucking idea what's going on because they're just given a 100 character with no real direction or context on what the game is even about. One of the big reasons everyone knew what to do once they hit 60 in Vanilla is that they spent 60 levels preparing for it.

[@notmyfirstnamenotmysecondn2219]

+Asmongold that's our boy

[@Damingo54]

+Asmongold If only my west coast ping to Nostalarius was not 250+

[@toddenxd]

+Asmongold I can confirm this "I would expect that new players coming into WoW now have literally no fucking idea what's going on because they're just given a 100 character with no real direction or context on what the game is even about. " My little brother who's 10 years old understand games very well already and thought this was really stupid. And his not so entertained by playing on my pvp server getting killed by all the heirloom players running around either. He actually laughed his ass of when he saw the heirloom mount. Thought WoW was some kind of joke... "I mean really, an orc in a costume riding a motorcycle, shouldn't it be about dragons and stuff" he told me

[@steffenw.brandenstein9656]

+Asmongold I think it's just MMO's and WoW trying to keep up with games in general. Games today is all about the reward, and not as much the journey towards a goal. In essence you have games that reward every single thing you do. It's like how kids get a reward for participating in sports events, and not for winning. The same applies to WoW with players getting "legendaries" with zero effort. I.E everyone gets a "medal". But without the feeling of accomplishment, it's just "oh another legendary.. yay"

[@catqueensina]

+Asmongold u luk lik a beaver

[@VegetoStevieD]

WoW is a perfect example of what happens when you constantly try to fix something that isn't broken, until it's broken.

[@Davidisawesome15]

Khechari great way to put it

[@thelonelybarbarian]

god damn, in all my 11 years of playing wow, making excuses for it, and trying to sum up exactly what the core of the problem is, THIS is the single greatest explanation for it i have ever heard

[@teeds88]

it's a way how to look at it. although they didn't want to "fix" anything, they wanted to make things accessible to more people. also, you necessarily get this problem when you change or add anything. think about it, if you don't change or add anything, the game dies anyway, since in its core it's about character _progression_.

[@thegamesforreal1673]

Perfectly said, man. Had they kept all the mechanics the same, only tweaked some numbers for pvp-balance's sake, and then added all the content they have, but at lvl 60 so previous content isn't completely shite useless, the game would've been much much better.

[@felixmaier4720]

TBC was the most awesome time for me, but Vanilla WAS good prefered it over todays WoW

[@archvaldor]

It is really refreshing to hear from somebody who understands the "world" in "world of warcraft" was the point.

[@lukenukem8028]

Agreed. ♥

[@mazza6969]

100%

[@hokkypro]

Making groups for Deadmines in vanilla, best time of my life.

[@ruflelol]

+Chillerino everything took time, but the satisfied feeling after FINALLY finding a good group and completing things.Was amazing.

[@hokkypro]

ruflelol Totally agree!

[@omegapointsingularity6504]

+Chillerino yessirs

[@hokkypro]

***** Holy shit inv me, someone will finally summon!

[@jimgallagher220]

+Chillerino Ganking the deadmines groups was such fun too.

[@SynthesisElysium]

So I just stumbled onto this video and I have to comment on the first few points Kungen makes about raiding not being what the game is about. I'm also an oldschool vanilla player. Joined the game on day one of the EU release, was there in the eternal server queues, etc. I watched Nihilum's videos. I remember looking at Kungen tank with his super awesome tier 3 shoulders and gear I could never get, and thinking to myself: "I want that." But it wasn't just about the gear. I was a huge WoW story nut. Before WoW I had played Warcraft 2 + Expac and Warcraft 3 + Expac, and I had played them a lot. I knew everything about the Warcraft story, so watching Nihilum face off against Kel'Thuzad in Naxx and Nefarian, the son of Deathwing in BWL made me feel like they were privy to vital story content that was somehow not for me. So I set up a raiding alliance. Not a guild, because I played on an RP server. I was a GM of a guild too small to raid, so I gathered some other smaller guilds and we united in a raid alliance that ended up clearing Molten Core, BWL, AQ40 and parts of Naxx in the last few months before the release of TBC. And it was amazing. Don't say that it wasn't about raiding. Kungen feels this way only because he did SO MUCH of it. When you're at the forefront, at the cutting edge, I can see why things don't look too interesting. Ultimately, it's just a game. And everything becomes mundane in the end. But for the people who didn't have access to that content, the desire to get there somehow was definitely a very strong feeling. Running UBRS endlessly and farming mats for crafted stuff that sucked wasn't what kept you going. It was what got you to level a new alt. I mean don't get me wrong, I really wanted that Blackhand Doomsaw and the Draconian Deflector, but after you got them, what then? Yes, there was a lot of wonder and mystery about the WoW world in vanilla. And I loved it. I have not experienced even a sliver of the wonder in Northrend or Pandaria or Draenor that I experienced in the world of vanilla WoW. But do not say that raiding was not interesting. For hundreds of thousands of players who were active at 60 but not in guilds like Nihilum, it was hugely interesting, and almost certainly unattainable. Not saying that LFR is any better btw. I recently resubbed to WoW after five years of leave (quit after killing Arthas 25 HM) and I queued up in LFR for laughs yesterday. Well, that kinda took the charm right off things. So there should definitely be an accessibility curve to it like there used to be, but not as steep. Oh and btw, thanks to whoever edited Nihilum videos back in the day for getting me into trance and EDM :P

[@clouds5]

+Tim Arthur Hehe I think the guy who did the vids was called "Fura" or something. I remember those vids... Got me into psych trance as well :D I absolutely agree with you, raiding is an important part of a PVE MMO like WoW. But it cannot, absolutely cannot be the only part that is interesting. The feeling we got in Vanilla, we will never get that back though. That sense of wonder what's out there, being in a new zone and running into other people and trading information on where to quest, where to find mats etcetc. I cherish those memories knowing that those times are over. But we have to acknowledge that Vanilla was in a lot of ways a very flawed game. I don't need to go into details, those who where there know what I mean :D Nevertheless, making raiding available for more than 1% of the population is vital. But making something more accessible doesn't mean making everything easy and taking out the other content. For me the sweetspot was in TBC/early WOTLK. At the end of WOTLK those stupid achievements came along and everything got dumbed down, which was the moment I stopped playing. I still logged in every other day to hang out with my friends and help out, but the game itself was over for me. Mainly because I realised that all the great moments in WoW were over. It would never get better than it was/is, and from what my friends who still play tell me - I was right.

[@qk-tb2df]

so you want the game to be so easy you can do multiple times? I would rather kill something once thats super hard than 12 times that's easy LFG was a relief when they added it in but it also had the side effect of destroying play time, and imo should have only been implemented on low pop servers (or just give free transfers to other servers)

[@Anudorini-Talah]

still you are garbage cause you dont even point out your argument, lmao. you just come here and flame bout the guy in the video, lmao. Raidin is complete boring bullshit. It is the gameplay what was fun, playing with a bunch of people TOGETHER

[@Shane7492]

Kungen's point is not that raiding sucks. It's that a good MMORPG needs more than just raiding. It needs exploration, farming, community, world pvp, etc. All the changes that have come to WoW over the years have taken away a lot of what makes an MMORPG enjoyable.

[@danielskrivan6921]

It's simple. Everyone is copying what WoW is today, instead of what WoW was. WoW used to be a game where you could explore a vast world, where you struggled to survive and had an identity on your server. It was a harsh world, you felt rewarded for going all over it, and you saw lots of different little pieces of the world. Now it's a linear story that you can play by yourself, where you zoom through an ever-shrinking world and see the story of the week. You have no server identity, between cross-realm play, LFG/LFR, and the fact you can solo the majority of the game. So you have no connection to your character, to the world, or to the other people in the game. And then people quit.

[@jheigl1980]

Check out Pantheon when it release, it will be old-school...

[@someone-ji2zb]

Rift is a perfect example of this. When cata hit, the game lost a couple million players in a couple months. Then Rift came out. A lot of people who left WoW had flocked to Rift to check it out, and for 2~ months people were loving it. It wasn't a perfect replacement, but it was fun. Then after that 2 month mark, they came out with their first content patch which copied the version of WoW which people were leaving. Rift went free to play not even half a year later because it lost so many people in the first month of that content patch. In that patch they basically nerfed all dungeon and raid content in the game despite there being no real complaints about them. Turned out people wanted challenge.

[@OneOfTheLoveless]

Man I'm glad wow classic released and all is rosy again...

[@OneOfTheLoveless]

It's also amazing that playing with your friends on different servers is a bad thing.. What.

[@xRip666x]

Played vanilla for two years without ever reaching lvl 60. Had so much fun!

[@elementengine]

What?? lol

[@kokainkalle]

+xRip666x WTF you suck then...

[@MGC-XIII]

+Aislinn Fallen Angel of Protection and Healing no, that comment sucked ;) My brother did the exact same thing. He was playing on an RP server and spent most his time in Orgrimmar and I never understood it because I wanted to level and raid.

[@jamieneko6591]

+Aislinn Fallen Angel of Protection and Healing everybody plays a game differently. don't be fucking stupid.

[@kokainkalle]

Truth Hurts So my mom is a lesbian? Nice logic whos the dumb here with retarded logic and assumptions. And yes truth hurts IF you didnt get to while playing that LONG you suck big time. Special as RP player you really want to be max lvl so you can get all RP GEAR,....

[@germanrud9904]

I still remember that defias mage one shotting me with pyroblast near deadmines

[@Lifeofbass]

I disagreed with Kungen on one important point. The raiding in vanilla was important AF, not because you necessarily had to complete it, but it was what everyone was striving towards. You would train professions, farm and run dungeons, grind for hours so that you probably one day woud be able to find a solid raiding guild and start raiding. Just having the priveliege of raiding was status in itself which leads to the main point. Because of the big, dynamically existing community in combination with a high difficulty level, EVERYTHING YOU ACHIEVED MEANT SOMETHING. I will never forget back in 2005 when I started playing the game, I was grinding my way through the levels until I was around 20-30 and for the first time I saw a guy with epic pieces. I had no idea what raiding even was, there was so much mysticism tied to it, but I knew that I wanted the things that he had really bad, so it just added to my interest for the game. I remember celebrating like crazy when I got my 60% mount at lvl 40, as fucking ridiculous as it seems today, I had been literally dreaming of getting a mount since I started lvling(I was 13). Even the smallest things felt special back then.

[@Lifeofbass]

Jack Burton haha, I guess I cant disagree with you... xD

[@kimandremichelsen4237]

+Jack Burton he has a point though. The feeling of accomplishment is gone from the game. As is the community. There is alot of stuff they have improved in the game since vanilla, but they killed the best part of the game while doing so.

[@algiux112]

+Johnny The Fish mate, that is it, best of the game was "the big unknown", they joy of learning. Now we know and can read everything. We just automatically know what to do. Even if we went back to vanilla, every raid would be downed much much faster then it was b4. Ppl just know stuff now. Back then all was new. Now.. we get episodes of new stuff which we exploit like new song we like until we hate it. What killed it for me "we were raiding ONLY 4hrs a day as a raiding guild" imagine mmo like that. If you wanted to stay competetive in game you had to spend massive amounts of time in it. That wouldnt be bad, if in time you eventually got somewhere, but... new xp comes b4 u can catch up, you level, you do stuff in your phase as a working man/student. Bam new xp b4 you saw good stuff, and again, again. There is no legacy of exp. New one comes out, you have to go online 24/7 to be good at game. Who has time for that? Ohhh, 1% of ppl who gets to see the endgame content. 99% has no time like that. Ofc, making game go faster leaves a danger that lets say 20% of players will have nothing to accomplish after 1.5 yrs. of game. But not 99% who will never see the content on which developers worked so hard. Its like invent something miraculous but only your mom pays attention. Vanilla was way too hard. half of specs. non viable/raids overtweaked, non killable, literally. and it was new. Now game is too easy, but still, you cant say you beat the game and that its casual if you have LFR arch.

[@sugargabevikelund2804]

Algirdas wow vanilla wasn't about raiding though never was. A good mmo rpg isn't about raiding.

[@Ghost572]

The thing is the epic gear had more value due to the way it looked and how much effort it took to get it. Then they started making the PVP gear look like the PVE gear and it took away the magic. Also the gear from PVE didn't work well in PVP so it just became a pile of crap in the end.

[@thesheepthemightythecrazy]

dungeon finder + queue + instance battlegrounds = empty open game world. capital cities are always full of people. it is why every mmo fails these days.

[@deepblue153]

If you're lonely while playing an MMO, something is probably wrong.

[@ballottime1093]

whats wrong with me ? doctor ?

[@Redishere]

Ballot time *the game

[@kaiz1845]

If the socializing is more important than the game, then everybody who makes or enjoys the game should die of cancer.

[@deafdawg466]

If playing a multiplayer game doesn't give you some kind of feeling of a reward, then go play a single player game. Heck, might as well turn off your internet and even burn it while you're at it. Forget your phone, you probably didn't buy it to be able to be in contact with others, just to play snake, am I right? Oh, fo with that smartassing plox...

[@jasontang9192]

Mmo is a massive player game then all is like AFK with bot or whatever. It's not about socialize or lonely but massive player online game. Not play like offline game. If the up stupid guy who say star craft is not about socialize then I think you aren't sure what nowadays mmo have became. It's worst than star craft.. At least star craft have player to play with but not like nowadays all bot and p2w AFK. Then do self thing.. OK fine then we also do self thing and lalalala better play offline game because it's completely an offline feeling for mmo game nowadays. Waste internet money!!!!

[@sethcollin7764]

I think any MMO gets stale and the best times are alwayys the times when you are new to the game and excited about it

[@ruf1o2o]

+Seth Collin u r new to the game for a week? 2 weeks? how would anybody sub to any game for longer than a month if u r right? if u mean by "new" exploring i bet there r things in WOD u havent seen yet but are u exited about it? do u mean doing new things every day? well i was doing the same things for months in vanilla every day and i loved it, coz it was fucking fun and i would be doing it until now if they didnt destroy it.

[@GrimstrokeMainr]

Literally everything good thing you like about Vanilla is because it was a new experience. So no shit you think the later games are worse.

[@i_am_bonesjr8655]

gay

[@Ninjawitz]

+InvkrMainr He liked the lack of group finder.

[@l0lzor123]

+InvkrMainr It has nothing to do with it being a new experience. He said why he liked vanilla and how the expansions removed what he liked about it. Its pretty simple, you can put it this way. He liked the blizzard vanilla ice cream, however 12 months of it being in the market, they removed the vanilla flavor and replaced it with blizzard burning crusade strawberry flavor. Then a year later it bcs got replaced with wrath of the ice king etc etc. What he liked about the game, slowly faded away as the new expansions changed it.

[@Ninjawitz]

+l0lzor123 "Literally everything" is a phrase that should not be used.

[@Allish90]

+InvkrMainr WoW was not close to my first mmorpg.. I played EQ, DAoC, SWG and a bunch of others before. Mmorpgs were much more hardcore and thus more rewarding, because it was hardcore community was essential.. :) WoW was to be honest the beginning of the downfall of the genre, and most vets agree with that statement.

[@ss15497]

I'll never forget Vanilla WoW. Late 06, the forests of Teldrassil amazed me as a kid. So indescribable... opening my first quest and the night elf saying "Hello"... while the ambiance/music played around me. Best feeling in the world, everything so new...

[@OneOfTheLoveless]

I will never forget my first imp's name when I started in bc either. But I'll also not forget the raiding first kills in legion. The guild internal memes we had in shadowlands. First starting taking in mop. All my raid solo attempts on cata. What are you trying to say with that?

[@fuunfun]

As a player of Vanilla I believe this is absolutely spot on. "More dots" Brilliant Onyxia nostalgia.

[@kokainkalle]

+Marcus B. Enjoy the ninja loots the players on there are majority assholes

[@kokainkalle]

***** There are a lot and there are videos on it also.

[@kokainkalle]

***** There are, just search on youtube/ google im not going to do your work.... just so you can make more assumptions. Can name 1 so its a bit easier for you Thieve. Anyone who raids in PV vanilla server knows who it is. and if you dont know who that is you're a casual noob but even then you should know as he steals from you kids.

[@WalkingGermany]

to summarize the vanilla feeling or why the social aspect plays a major role in any MMORPG and was removed in later wow expansions: Vanilla: I want to do a dungeon. I need to gather people, interact with them, make sure the setup works out, that theres no bad equipped or known asshole among them. I maybe need to clarify the needs with players of the same class. I talk to people, get to know them a little. I need to do some work already before the adventure has even started. Now: I press a button and wait. i dont travel to the dungeon, i dont experience the world. Vanilla: I need to get some people to the dungeon for porting or in even earlier days, all have to go to the dungeon by themselves. On the way to the dungeon, i may find some ores or even stumble into a battle between two players, one of them being a known ganking rogue of the opposite faction you'd love to take down. You may kill him with that other guy or even more show up and the battle escalates. You arrive at the dungeon, have to make sure the opposite faction is good-willed or if not, you have to make your stand at the port stone. If you fail, you may ask in ur guild for people to come help or in the general chat. But unlike nowadays, you can easily judge the scene since you know many players of the server or at least know their guild, of which some were simple kill on sight or a known raid guild not interested in open battles or your guild may have a no-attack contract with that guild due to important outdoor bosses (not necessarily equip-wise, but for the guild prestige on the server) . If everthing goes well, you can summon your party of 5-10 or even earlier 15 players for ubrs and go inside the dungeon. Now: I get an invite, i press ok an start the dungeon. meanwhile i get some ores for free while waiting in my garrison. I dont care for the players in my group, as they are from any random realm i have no relationship to, saying just hi and begin the dungeon. Vanilla: Inside the dungeon, it needs little organisation, check the buffs etc. and then it starts. if your tank does not have good equipment, he will sometimes take shit loads of damage and has to work his ass of to keep the mobs on him. You cannot afk spam buttons and nuke mobs down, if you make a little mistake and one escapes to another group, pulling them, things suddenly spice up, people need to be aware to re-cc etc., the rogue might offtank one with evasion while the druid runs around in bearform instead of healing and shit can even be resisted, making things not 100% calculable. And all of this because you want that sword, although there are equally good weapons, but you have some roleplay honor and want exactly this sword and this item model. it also has a cool proc instead of passive stats. and who knows, some bosses in this dungeon have a 0,01% chance to drop a super rare epic which you have never seen on any player in front of the IF bank. yes i have to do a lot of work with not guaranteed success. In addition, there is a lot of interaction with the players in your group, you make friends or even insult people and will never do a dungeon with them again. Emotion, social part, very important. you will remember names. same goes for battlegrounds, crossrealms or even foreign players, it could be bots for me. i dont care about them, i probably never see them again. many behave like total assholes because, in an online game, they are now even more anonymous. Now: I get an item here and there, it does not matter which dungeon, all items are more or less the same besides the slot. success guaranteed, accidentally pulling one or two more groups does not matter. the tank will not have any problems holding the mobs on him, instead he focuses on dealing damage. There is no special dungeon with a chance on a super rare item or anything else, you visit them a few times and you are done with your equipment. i dont remember any player of these groups, they could even be bots saying hi and bye, i would not notice the difference. the chances of having any problems in the dungeon are lower than winning a lottery irl. all this needed work for nowadays simply things. it was criticized more and more and then nerfed more and more for every patch, making it easier and easier: it played such a big part, created value we could not immediately see, only feel and experience in a larger context; what actually MAKES a mmorpg. i have not made any new contact for the last 2 expansions, but blizzard does not see this connection and why people want classic or bc servers back.

[@ChaosturnMusic]

diz9 Something came to mind when I read 'alot of work with no guaranteed success' and it really sums up the difference between old and modern wow for me. Modern wow is like watching a hollywood action movie someone spoiled for you. There are 0 stakes because you know the hero saves the day, gets the girl or whatever at the end. Now that you know, it's pointless to watch if you're looking for excitement and tension. Maybe there are some nice visuals and action scenes, but it's ultimately pointless, and you forget about it a month later. That's what happens in wow now. No one expects excitement when they enter a dungeon. There is 0.001% risk of failure, you can actually just afk and get your free instant gratification points (tm), whatever they are called this expansion, 10 minutes later. You can even defeat the last boss in the game by clicking the q button and proceed to watch netflix for 30 minutes. In vanilla, after finally getting a group together and you entered the dungeon, you were excited for the adventure ahead. You don't know if you would make it through, it was hard, it took time and work, and you probably wiped a couple of times. Things hit hard, the healer ran out of mana often, if you pulled more than 3 mobs you were definitely dead. Mobs being elite meant business. You probably entered 1 or 2 levels earlier than appropriate too, but you could and you did because there isnt some arbitrary dungeon finder barrier telling you when youre allowed to explore a part of the world. And when you finally killed that last boss of the dungeon for your first time and he dropped that shiny blue item, it felt just as good as killing any mythic end boss in a raid will in legion. Raiding was almost like an old legend you heard some guy mention once in the city, and when you heard of these awesome bosses and huge caves and castles that were completely out of your reach, it motivated you even more to grow your character stronger and work towards it. It didn't matter if you got there or not, that journey and growing stronger over time was the fun part. Not to mention legendary items, the first time you sae someone with a Thunderfury on his back you shat your fucking pants. I'm just rambling now. Tldr, old wow was like star wars original trilogy, modern wow is like rogue one. You already know they get the death star plans at the end, the characters are boring, it has some neat special effects but who cares about that anymore, every movie has that, and youve forgotten about it 2 months later.

[@Mr.Reality]

Holy shit well, fkn said! +1

[@KNByam]

I like these comments. They're long but I read every word of it and agree whole heartedly. What made wow fun for me was the process. I absolutely loved the zones before cata and leveling in them. Along the way you met people, a quest that required 3-5 people to kill a mini boss type, actually needed that many people or you can get a higher level player to help you out. But you met people and you never forgot them as you were on their level. You knew everyone on your server, the ninjas, the douchebags, and the ones you could rely on to give you a hand taking care of something you could not kill on your own. We've lost all of that.

[@Jas2davir]

vanila was so fun eh buddy? im sure you played an elemental shaman, or a shadow priest, or an enhance shaman, or a ret paladin. Those classes were never even allowed into anything but pvp. Im sure some smart ass is going to try and claim that they were allowed to raid and shit, if you were you had to be very close to the gm or officer of your guild, because a fucking under geared rogue or fury war could out dps you. All of you sitting there with your rose tinted goggles, i bet half of you never raided end game, where nearly everyone in the guild had to make a warlock alt to ss your buddy so everyone could enter naxx with a soulstone. im sure kungen would remember thats how his guild got so many world first back then, from abusing soulstones.

[@Obosii]

"Raiding is a curse." Brilliant quote.

[@johnburn872]

3:18

[@MajorMokoto]

I couldn't agree more. I never raided before Wrath. I had no idea what it was. I played from Vanilla-BC and didn't even start doing 5 mans till BC. I would wander around the world, exploring, meeting people, and making friends. Then comes Wrath. I start raiding hardcore because it's accessible to me. But I stopped exploring, I stopped meeting people. I no longer sat in Dal talking in trade, putting 5mans together. I started to not recognize anyone's names. And not care. The social element faded away. But I didn't realize that is what made the game fun. Can't stand these people who keep defending Blizzard at this point. The game is over. If they brought us a new game, one that didn't make it so you could just play all by yourself in a little castle, I would play it. Bring back the social aspects of the game. People need to be on foot, and explore. There needs to be reasons to go get materials. There needs to be some challenge to go places. All this instant gratification has ruined the game. And the numbers tell a huge story. Wrath brought everyone into WoW, and by the end of it, all the stuff they have added drove everyone away.

[@Szaahdis]

+Leah Burbank Also agree, and this mirrors my own experience almost exactly (except I did do some 5 man content in vanilla).

[@AnDre-yu4po]

+Leah Burbank It's even worse that literally everyone is saying that, besides a bunch of ppl who are defending them. THEY'RE DOING SHIT AGAINST IT! They don't care about their game anymore.. it's so tragic. World of Warcraft, the good game that it once was, completely thrown away.

[@KevinArcade87]

+Leah Burbank I raided from Vanilla untill Cataclysm. I never stopped wandering around the world, exploring and meeting new people, but I had a unhealthy addicition to the game because I was pretty much always online I believe I have more then 450 days /played when I quit.. I can understand that people who can only play after work would only be able to raid.. sleep.. go to work.. raid.. sleep.. and repeat

[@MajorMokoto]

Jack Burton Says the guy raging on the internet. MMO's have always been about the social aspect. That's what makes them living, breathing worlds. The fact that vinalia servers exist and have large followings prove you have no idea what you're talking about.

[@almightytrollgod]

+Jack Burton This is what we can expect from 12 year olds without skill and who do not know what life is :D

[@RaiderDave42069]

Pretty much summed up my feelings. I don't like the direction they've taken WoW, and that's why I find myself mostly playing on private Vanilla servers nowadays.

[@vorlautboy3083]

And here we are in 2019 where most of what kungen said is more true then ever.. Classic beta reviews speak for themselves. BfA is totally off that what WoW once was.. Btw. Come back bro, we miss ur streams! maybe u could do some paint on how bdo vanilla was better over remastered. ;)

[@RZAJW]

Jackson Five lol right

[@mandurilravenous5324]

this is the best WOW review yet, Kungen ftw ^^

[@GeorgePapageorgakis]

No matter how much people disagree with him, he is right. The fundamental idea of mmorpg is to actually interact with others, the fun to look for a grp and to actually go to the dungeon etc... Now its just garbage, there is not even a need to join a guild anymore... you can solo in garrison everything... However, vanilla was not perfect, regarding difficulty, loot etc but the expansions after wotlk were a disaster...

[@vekokrava1423]

I disagree with your saying that vanila wasnt perfect because of loot and difficulty, just because it was easy was a great time because you could socialize and relax after work without being stressed out because of wipes, also 1 difficulty is better then having 3 different difficulty because of gear scaling (the more gear scaling you have the more unbalanced game is), also loot was perfect because of scaling and because you needed to do more raids to gear up your guild (per week), aswell as scaling I mean MC piece had 15 stamina for example and BWL piece had 17stamina, therefore game was balanced and old gear mattered when you started gearing, even bg gear or reputation gear (old) mattered when you just leveled your character, therefore you had more content to do...

[@TheOutsider69]

"Endgame is where the REAL game starts." Always fundamentally disagreed with this "proverb." So the experience of leveling and seeing all these different zones and dungeons isn't the real game but waking up at 4AM before work to run a raid for the 40th time is? Give me a break. The leveling experience is the most important aspect of an MMO. This is why MMOs continue to fail, we see it in Asian MMOs all the time where all you do is grind endlessly so you can get to max level. Nobody cares about making the world fun to just live in and experience. It's all just about raids and loot whoring. What ever happened to the "RPG" in MMORPG?

[@eduardoborges506]

the best you probabely have to fit you style of MMORPG is guild wars 2 , it has very good RPG elements , but its not perfect either

[@omenakookos]

"Endgame is where the REAL game starts." Is a fair statement. It's where players get real good and competitive. But leveling nowadays is so bad in all mmorpgs I know of (except runescape). There are overpowered (or at least on par with the best normal items at specific levels) character bound items such as "heirlooms", "avatar weapons" etc. Or just weapons that level with you so you never have to get good gear while leveling, you automatically have it. A noob can't make gold because all the epic loot is worthless crap no-one needs. Leveling is made a bit more easy and convenient for additional characters people make, but that ruins the game for actual noobs. Also early content tends to get nerfed after a while, for the same reason the gear is added. Any difficulty in the early game is taken away, bosses, dungeons are easy for almost anyone to solo even without being overleveled. No point grouping up. And of course micro-transactions may allow to buy powerful untradeable consumables or gear to wreck anyone at your level while leveling. Updates to classes tend to break the balance after a while. Low level class may be given a new skill or a buff to skill only considering how it affects PvE. PvP server has little to no meaning until max level.

[@bambae7669]

they should just remove leveling from being a part of MMORPG games all together, and actually make the game interesting enough to play without giving you any obvious incentives to play it, other than that the game is just simply put fun to play. After achieving this you can start working on giving people artificial incentives

[@joshuamarc8773]

Well for WoW this statement is true... WoW always get's designed for the later lategame :)

[@Blackadder75]

why would you wake up at 04:00 am? >95% of players raid AFTER work hours

[@ouilegdsart]

This guy spent 10 years hardcore raiding against his will. rofl

[@otuzucuncuderecemason2462]

+Trent Steele rofl This is the most cringeworthy advertisement i have ever seen.

[@andrewlalor523]

Hindsight really makes you change your opinion on something, i dont buy the shit he spews half the time be he still has a few good points and the game is still fun but does have alot of flaws.

[@Bonebounder93]

A.d.d.i.c.t

[@Bound4Earth]

People were more fond of WoTLK more because of Lore from WCIII. It was inferior to everything before it when it came to gameplay and sever community. WoTLK is when the sever community became much more toxic and wanted their welfare epics. That started the whole gaining epic gear no longer being an accomplishment. Going forward epic gear was given within hours of hitting max level. It started many bad spirals. WoTLK was the start of breaking down accomplishments, removing the massive epic wins, and moving more toward solo gameplay in a community based game. Wrath was also the last expansion to get 3 content patches. WoD only had one and is the worst content expansion to date.

[@Userius1]

Everyone says this or that is the start. None of this really started affecting things until Cata changed the talent system.

[@ShiftHappens]

Legion changes everything

[@jimmychongo3149]

"People were more fond of WoTLK because of lore from WCIII" and yet just like every other expansion that based it's story on the RTS games instead of doing something original, it completely raped the lore. They turned Arthas from an interesting and complex character which the RTS games had foreshadowed becoming an anti-hero, into fucking Skeletor from He-man.

[@Trendydwarf]

Whilst i agree that they fucked the lore in the early expansions Arthas was pretty much a full on villian not an anti hero

[@VorondiI]

lol, the guild chat. The moment he switches into Black Desert:"can you make a raid in this game?"

[@Shinobi001]

To break it out and I agree with this: Vanilla was more fun because everything took longer AND the grind was fun. That's ultimate replay-ability. Now a days we either get really grindy games that are boring and feel like a chore, or games that hand you everything(wow now a days).

[@mero40k]

+Shinobi Cant deny a big part of your enjoyment was because it was so fresh and new. Just the massive online part alone was amazing. Over a decade later youve pretty much seen and done it all, not much on the release horizon that will make you feel the way you did back then.

[@Dummy838]

+Shinobi "the grind was fun" take of your nostalgia-glasses

[@keiranj4809]

??? The grind is fun, if you'd bother to go and play on Elysium with even a small group of friends it's extremely enjoyable to make the walk over to Shadowfang Keep on Alliance characters for example. Gives you time to kill mobs, have some good banter and fight some players on the opposite faction. You get a connection to the character you're playing and the spec that you create, and overall just putting time into something just makes it really nice

[@Durgenheim]

Dude, I loved running to dungeons and raids, and having accidental PvP on the way. I loved having to work for the things that I earned, spending HOURS on quests made getting even a blue upgrade feel worth it. There was a ton of content, so many raids, such a great community, and it felt great having the gear to show for my effort. I don't even care about the drawbacks, the grindy bullshit and hours spent running around without quick travel - the positives FAR outweighed the negatives. WoW used to feel alive, and now the essence of the game has been killed for the sake of convenience and accessibility.

[@deuschebiggalow5442]

Yes, completely agree. I played WoW Vanilla from the beginning and was top ten ranked in PvP (back when there was a weekly leader board), played in the first Battle for Alterac Valley which literally lasted like 36 hours, and was also in the top raiding guild on our server - we opened the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj for our server as well. There was so much to do in Vanilla and we had so many random adventures, too many to count, but it all revolved around the immersive social aspect of the game. Unlike today where WoW and other similar theme park MMO's have reduced all social interaction into transaction-based systems. I think the one thing that newer MMO's and newer players don't fully realize is that the enjoyment of the game does not come from logging in for a few hours and having Epics and Legendary's handed to you. The enjoyment comes from the friends and foes you meet during your struggle and journey toward a worthwhile goal. That is what creates an epic experience, an adventure incredible enough to render nostalgia for millions. There are plenty of newer games that are tons of fun which revolve around transaction-based systems, like League of Legends / PUBG / Fortnite / Overwatch etc. and that style works fine for quick arena-based games like that, but for games like WoW that is basically the antithesis of what makes an MMO remarkable.

[@BrokeMyCrayon]

A big problem with his argument here is that "only 3 hours a week of playtime at endgame" only applies to the guilds who clear all the mythic content and have it on farm almost immediately after the expansion releases. This is not the case for the vast majority of players. That being said, I understand his frustration and agree with most of his other points and I'll be playing Black Desert at launch.

[@joltTubeify]

+Broke My Crayon is it really worth doing myhic raiding if you are in a normal guild? have not raided mythic i'm sick of the raids when i get to the point where i can raid mythic. :P

[@Traumglanz]

+Broke My Crayon Replace mystic with LFR and you can make the exact same argument, even when less exaggerated in the clearing times maybe. ;-) The point is that you clear the raiding content of your desired difficulty level quite fast and there is nothing besides raiding for endgame content. The main demand from many, many casual players in vanilla was that blizzard should end their "raid or die" attitude. And they did somewhat in TBC with tons of content outside of raiding. And then they went all back into their old habit, made the game raid or die and devalued every other content. They made their whole open world pointless for convenience reasons, because someone in the management thought it would be cheaper to give out free candy to the players instead of content. Did not work very well long-term, right? ;-)

[@TheGoldblaze]

+Broke My Crayon Ok, so let's assume you are not the high end mythic raider. Does it mean that you have a lot of things to do? You have much more content every day, right? Raiders are the only people in this expansion that have something to do, casuals are either unsubscribing or are being pushed into raiding while almost none of them have the required attitude to do it. And they are doing it because there is a serious lack of content that appeals to them.

[@IshayuG]

+Broke My Crayon Well, Mythic content is just the same content you get in LFR but tuned differently. So... yeah.

[@BrokeMyCrayon]

IshayuG I haven't personally played through WoD, but if Mythic is as difficult or more difficult than Heroic raids, that tuning matters A LOT. Not to mention the addition of new mechanics from Regular to Heroic.

[@coreyadler]

I agree. At an mmorpg's core its about player interaction. Mordern mmo's have gone the way of wow and made things much more casual and convenient, with lfg's and queuing, and instancing. Im happy black desert away from that trend and forces player interaction by not including those features.

[@sloopydroop]

"Only raided 4 or 5 hours a day" I had a good chuckle.

[@Haywire5714]

"Gotta make sure I plug black desert at the end"

[@LockStockNBarrel]

Unfortunately there's no going back for wow. They took flying back out (kind of) and it was a huge point of contention for players but they knew they had to do it. If they really went back to the vanilla roots the current players would lose their minds. What blizz really needs to do is make wow 2.0 learning from their irreparable mistakes with wow and keep with the vanilla theme in wow 2.0. Raiding isn't bad, it just can't be the entire focus of end game content. There needs to be more to do to incrementally increase your character power. Pet battles aren't 'things to do' and every other gimmick they've tried to introduce to 'give you something to do'.

[@easyben21]

+Enduro NE The endgame of vanilla was raiding, it was just extremely grindy to get there and get gear and find a guild that could have 40 people show up

[@DatBoyHex]

+Benjamin Cresdee But you can't even say that since even those that touched endgame never done a vanilla raid. It was pretty much secondary in everything. EQ has the same system.

[@easyben21]

+Emiliano Lozada It took a much longer time to get there is what I'm trying to point out. Back in vanilla it was hit level 60 spend more time it took you to level to basicly get full dungeon gear, or teir 0.5. a large portion of the time spent in preparing for raiding was not streamlined. So then when you was ready for raiding you had to hope that you found 40 other dedicated people that put in 20~ days of playtime in, were as now you can level and enter normal raids with sufficient gear in around 1 day played time if you're quick. Vanilla appeared to have way more content because it had a much longer completion time to finish the content.

[@DatBoyHex]

+Benjamin Cresdee Ah true that.

[@johnburn872]

I find it so facinating that you articulated this point so well.

[@christie2234]

Farewell Nostalrius, the last hope we had for vanilla. I am working with a group of 11 people to bring it back. If youre watching this, most of us switching to playTBC on the 14th until a proper Nost is made. Stay tuned Nost is dead but the community lives. Kungen I've been following you since you were doing naxx, and I agree with everything you said. Its not about the raiding its about the journey. At first i disagreed with you on TBC/wotlk as they had some merits, but compared to Cata and on you're right.

[@Midgert89]

EVE Online is the ultimate MMO when it comes to content useability, no expansion or major patch ever renders old content obsolete, unless it's removed for balance reasons. there's a reason as to why it's been stable and growing slowly for 13 years.

[@SnuSnu91]

Why so many dislikes? He's absolutely on point with everything. Vanilla WoW (2004-2006) was the best MMO and gaming experience I've ever had. No KZbin/Twitch/Metaslave bullshit with people telling you how to play the game. I could write an essay about it but you know...

[@affirazer]

Vanilla was good because of the time it was released. It doesnt Work nowadays Just Look at all the sweats in classic

[@Damingo54]

and I thought I was the only one who hates flying mounts. Good to hear.

[@lordpotater664]

my fondest memories were in BC (never hit cap) and early WOTLK (before dungeon finder) going around inspecting people (being amazed by their gear) the slow leveling and grind. Before I understood everything in the game lol

[@vaporiiz]

same here.. i started right when BC came out, and i remember i didnt hit 70 until RIGHT before WOTLK came out.. those were the days, the game seemed a lot more impressive. Now it's just mediocre

[@lordpotater664]

Jack Burton wtf are you talking about

[@almightytrollgod]

+Jack Burton You are so funny kiddo, I am laughing my ass off here. You made my day! :D

[@cruros9084]

That is exactly what I did when I first started, I still have my old level 27 hunter which had random pieces of cloth on because they where green or blue XD

[@qweqwe1324]

Lol, dumbass, I I.Q measures your actual age versus your perceived mental age and divides them, generating a number, if it falls within 85-115 you're a normal person. Things go far beyond YOUR compehension buddy, wow what stupid person you are.

[@danidadog6]

To be fair, he made lots of valid points

[@gkar42069]

A whole lot of them

[@TehBananaBread]

+Daniel Iliev Also a lot of not so valid points....

[@gkar42069]

+BananaBread How so?

[@OriginalPuro]

+BananaBread People will believe it because "but kungen said it, it must be true".

[@lucass7696]

+Daniel Iliev a couple. literally, he made two good points. 1, the social aspect is gone from the game (everyone has already said this and agree) 2, new expansions destroys previous expansions content (true) the rest was just repeating the social aspect argument in slightly different forms (you don't see people when you fly, you don't world pvp, you don't notice people etc.) and some nostalgic rantings.

[@Kancerous]

Other MMORPG games existed before WoW. Ultima Online, The Realm Online, Meredian 59, Nexus, Lineage 1&2, Everquest, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, Runescape, Ragnarok Online, MapleStory, and Shadowbane were around before WoW was and it's crazy to think about how I have played all of these games. A lot of us went into WoW as veterans of the genre.

[@ashmetcalf3757]

You are the real world version of Nixxioms death knight, moanining about everything and living off past glory

[@bobbykotick1163]

Ash Metcalf and being right about it all

[@BigDonathan15]

Depens on what kind of MMORPG you're looking for, vanilla was good for PvE, but the PvP was the worst trash i've ever played.

[@hybridpsycho]

He said and then quit after a month. :D

[@liambabe6513]

I joined the game mid wrath before dungeon finder, the idea of "not knowing what raiding was" is so true, me and some friends only started playing because of warcraft 3. We literally had no idea what there was todo at max level, only really wintergrasp? And only that was because we wanted to go there since it was a giant zone on the map. We just enjoyed the world for what it was, and had a great time.

[@jennygw1883]

I agree with everything you say. I loved raiding because of the team work, because of the family that raiding guilds became. Wiping for a while on a boss might seem a strange way to bond as a group, but I am convinced that was a huge part of it. When the boss went down we achieved as a team, too. Because the content needed skill the better players got to know each other across the guilds. For example, in TBC when we needed a tank for a 5 man we knew all the best tanks to ask. The game wasn't about loot. Sure it was nice to get some new trophy, but we were more interested in the stats and how it would help us as players and our guild and raid progression than how pretty it looked. I don't get how Blizz don't see that. When Blizz made it a loot based game it destroyed the world community. The type of players that play for loot are completely different to those who play to achieve as a team. I raided a little in Vanilla, ran a couple of raiding guilds in TBC and LK. At the end of LK I was a player in a guild that went into Cata. We were raiding one night and everyone was going to sleep. Our RL said, "Is everyone as bored as I am?". We all stoppped playing from that point. Then I went back to Vanilla on a private server and got to see more of the raiding content I'd missed first time around. If I try and explain WoW to someone who never played, and a few who never raided, they just don't get what it was all about. Not being able to login to legacy WoW is like not being able to go home. I will gladly pay full subs to get the old worlds back again AS THEY WERE in every respect.

[@Utheree]

I remember that fuckin Tauren lvl 60 shaman Takkos ! Always sitting at Stormwind's gate and killing all of us :'(

[@Golikol369258]

+Utheree on tbc time. i remember those shitty rogues stabbing my kneck 24/7 at stranglethorn haunting quest series! -.-^^

[@Haxete]

+Golikol369258 I only played the game a little bit at vanilla / early tbc, i had a 37 rogue and i had tons of fun running around world pvping people. i actually had a fight with a mage like every day for a week then i could not find him any more. I miss those times.

[@Jiiimmie]

+Utheree Hehe well i was a stabby ud rogue who killed ppl on low lvl :D

[@moviearticka]

@KungenTV so you say that ubrs was 10man at the start? Mejt did you even play vanilla? Ubrs was a 15man dungeon. Also at the start of vanilla raid dungeons like strat, scholo etc had no player limit, so you could go in with 40 people if you wanted.

[@06hurdwp]

Content peaked in wrath, community peaked in vanilla. TBC was a good balance of both. Everything went to shit in cata.

[@RW77777777]

Wrath had a re-skinned Naxx and made Sartharion 'hard mode' as well as 10/25 raids everything was content duplication because the lore ran thin only good thing from wrath was Wintergrasp; which was a fixed version of AV without the faction base/geography imbalances TBC had heroic dungeons which weren't great, but otherwise very nice

[@23wtb]

I know when my interest started to wane, and the game started to seem like the game wasn't worth the work, and nobody seemed to do anything anymore except join raiding guilds and spend all their time preparing for nightly raids, was around Crusader's Coliseum and then Ulduar. If you weren't in a guild good enough to make progress in Ulduar, you were nobody, and you got left behind. There was an explosion of scrub raiding guilds, forming and failing and pointing fingers and disbanding. I don't know when meters became mandatory, but that didn't help either. Everything boiled down to mastering your "rotation" and facerolling across the keyboard and trying to juice your meters, like a bunch of drunks at the bar with a breathalyzer. Icecrown Citadel was pretty okay (if you aren't sick of blue at that point), then Cata hit and it was like "Is this even an expansion?" It didn't seem to bring much of anything to the table. Then Mists of Pandaria was just ridiculous. Seriously, I don't know how they thought doing that in a universe where Kung-Fu Panda was already a thing that existed was a good idea. Then you're playing World of Farmville and catching Warcraft Pokemon and I don't even know, but no thanks.

[@kramer1916]

Activision fucked up everything mid wrath.

[@Matsenn00]

+Cosmo Kramer How did they fuck up?

[@nkjoself2040]

Very refreshing to see this today. Vanilla was amazing, I knew everyone on the server, both horde and alliance. It was a true human community. In TBC, the world died with flying mounts as you say, but arena and Illidan kept me going. In Lich King it wasnt the same game anymore and I quit after 1 season. I find it funny that people say Lich King and the next expansions were good, I always ask them if they played vanilla. None of them did. It was truly special, and I will remember it fondly for the rest of my life. I was 11 when I started, today im 29, and I still remember the names, including yours Kungen. Hope all is well.

[@Lizard1582]

I started in Wrath and honestly mostly liked it just because I was new. Cata I enjoyed for the dungeons and pvp. I still like the game for what it is; a seasonal grind of new content, but it is 100% not an MMO. Like you said, the world died with flying, effectively killing the MMO aspect of it. Blizzard made the decision to make raids "what the game is really about" in TBC and everything else that made the world feel "alive" took a backseat. I was 21 and knew every corner of Azeroth by the time Classic came out and even in the modern age of discord and guides, it was 100x more of an MMO than any other wow patch I had experienced before. Classic is the best MMO version of the game and Legion had my favorite combat and encounters.

[@SnufflyCloud]

I agree vanilla was better because everything took longer, nowadays I installed a special addon so that my game plays at 4% regular speed, and thus everything takes 25 times as long. Let me tell you I am having an absolute blast on my destro lock, casting a chaos bolt for 75 seconds just feels so rewarding. Well, not like I'd know, I'm not high enough level yet, because even loading screens take 15 times as long, for that true vanilla experience!

[@Adamantiis]

Ease of access to shit is what made wow boring. Making gear easy to obtain reduced player involvement and interest in obtaining that gear. Making raiding easier to access made everything outside of raiding not worthwhile and removed player incentive to get involved outside - so they only ended up sitting in place and Qing. Of course the riding point Kungen made. To sum it all up, STOP TRYING TO APPEAL TO FUCKING CASUALS BLIZZ. To rectify they need to start by: 1. Making it harder to start raiding -Reintroduce Attunements -Remove LFR -Remove LFG tool (dungeon teleport) 2. Reduce quality and quantity of loot -Lessen quality rewards from boss drops or quests(increases incentive to obtain gear OUTSIDE of raiding) -Lessen amount of loot bosses drop. Higher likelihood players will stick around to raid for more than 2 months. 3. Lel Flying: - They're kind of doing this already. GJ Some of you may ask: But Adamantiis, if they make it harder to raid what is there to do outside of raiding?? Listen here my dear pleb, that is the whole point. By making it harder to obtain the best rewards, the rewards outside of raiding will not seem as bad in comparison to majority of the populace. In return this makes content outside of raiding the MAIN focus and worthwhile to obtain. It's obvious that the more effort is put in obtaining something, the greater you are rewarded with dopamine in your brain, so when you do indeed go through all the hassle of putting a raid together the hard way, the reward will be more satisfactory and addicting. Remember when addiction to WoW was a serious problem? Aka broken marriages and relationships. Lol yea. What wow suffers from right now is what I call the Rich Guy Syndrome. If you have everything you could possibly want, then you lose interest in everything and shit gets boring. On the other hand, a hobo will do anything for $10. Blizz needs to turn wow players into hobos.

[@ChampionChains]

I've been chasing the MMO high I experienced playing Everquest since I left EQ in 2004. Warcraft has come close at times, but it was very short lived. And since then, I've been chasing the Warcraft high of vanilla and BC. The MMORPG experience does not exist anymore. Everything in WoW could more or less be completed from a lobby system now. LFR, LFD, BGs, Arenas, Raids, etc. There is no longer a purpose to have a game world, just log in, stay in your order hall and queue up for whatever you want to participate in. In Everquest, there were times when I literally spent five hours on a corpse run. Literally. And I enjoyed every minute of it. And it will always be one of my favorite MMO memories. Everything in MMOs has been made so accessible and instant that there is no longer an "experience" of being part of the world.

[@JohanHultin]

Vanilla - The stockholm syndrome story by Kungen.

[@Anolaana]

Go drink some water and then to the toilet, you sound a little salty.

[@Stekaren]

cant stop watching this

[@Indignation92]

cant stop stop watching this

[@spambotv10]

@KungenTV Remember the raid on Kazzak, when you suddenly got mindcontrolled (with a engi mind control cap) and then got hit with a divine sacrifiece from a paladin called Jaska? Back then divine sacrifiece gave a 30min immortality immobility shield which had to be clicked off from the buffs in order to gain control back. Wiped the whole raid :)

[@uusikaytaja10]

He seems like he has a third degree of nostalgia.

[@shyrixia]

Yesterday i saw hundreds of level 2's on chopper mounts all heading to tanaris to make the words "LE(broken G)ACY PLS" and "VANILLA"Heard they came from you ;)

[@invincibleomega546]

Yea I saw the vid

[@shyrixia]

Jack Burton Do i look like i even care?

[@Narabedla4]

watching it, i thought about black desert and what do i see in the taskbar, the small black spirit.

[@DerdOn0ner]

And don't forget the cancer, that is Garrisons...

[@newera478]

+propa gandhi World of Warcraft: Single-player/co-op

[@Truepk]

+propa gandhi those garrisons actually pay for my subscription.

[@Orekid1]

All of your points is why people loved Everquest. If you wanted to get to a new continent you had to take a boat! And let me tell you this boat literally took 25 minutes to cross the ocean. You had to sit on this goddamn boat for 25 minutes and if you missed the dock you had to sit another 25 minutes to go back and 25 more to get back. And if you jumped off that goddamn boat you died and lost all your shit. Because there were sharks in that ocean. Very high level badass sharks and the ocean was deep.

[@deuschebiggalow5442]

I fell off a boat once in EQ ... good times.

[@bryanmay1305]

The good old days of a real MMORPG. The players now have no clue what they missed out on.

[@epithymbria]

Is there something like "living world story" updates in WoW?

[@martinsgakke]

Nothing but truth being said here!!

[@ToxicallyMasculinelol]

the cool thing about EVE online is that none of the problems with wow expansions have tainted EVE. all the old content is still viable, there is ONLY world pvp, there is no queueing, you have to socialize to do basically anything, and you have to farm or trade or do something other than endgame pvp/pve in your offtime. not to mention the game doesn't baby you, like if you get scammed that's your problem, not the devs'. i don't play MMOs anymore but if i did, it'd be EVE

[@iamcornholiothegreat]

+Toxically Masculine well, EVE is a fantastic game but is a completely different thing ALL TOGETHER, honestly beside the fact that EVE and WoW are "Multiply Massive Online RPG" they dont have almost nothing in common, the PVP is different between the games, the PVE is different, the in game economy is different, the skill progression, the learning curve, both games is a very different experience from each other.

[@dthmchne]

+Samurai Shampoo you should try single player games if you dont like online games

[@SoopaTroopa]

We started raiding before anyone had an epic mount not months after XD First raid is not Molten Core, it was Kazzak and Azuregos. We power-leveled like crazy and were maybe 15 lvl 60s and the rest was lvl 50+. I still wonder what happened to my guild after I sold my account, I sold my account for $1,000 because I figured it would decrease in value after other people started getting epics too, but instantly regret it as starting over just wasn't the same. The most awesome thing about being the first to down a raid boss wasn't the epics or the "achievement" for me tho, it was tracking down the leader of the Horde on our server on the old chat program mIRC and convince him to not PvP us as we tried to raid, the chilling feeling of finally having the raid boss below 10% health while watching Hordes in triple digit numbers stand behind us able to slaughter us at any moment and ruin it for us (raid bosses had a 14 day re-spawn timer back then as well according to a GM I knew).

[@NjoyMoney]

As a vanilla player, couldnt agree more. Dungeon Finder and huge focus on raiding only killed WoW as an MMORPG. E

[@jimbojed7553]

+Njoy32Gaming i could agree more

[@Turbotef]

+Njoy32Gaming Not me, I didn't like getting home at 2am after work and then taking 10-40+ minutes hoping to get lucky on my rogue and shaman getting into a level 60 dungeon. This is why I pvped more at that time. Dungeon Finders are here to stay in MMO, sorry to say and as a 15+ year MMO vetern, I love it. Shit can't stay in the past and they honestly don't destroy communities at all, just bad players do. Huge focus on raiding i agree with and I'm glad its starting to crack with WoW.

[@akse]

+Turbotef I play in low pop private vanilla server and havent had any huge issues forming groups.. i've actually made some friends like that. In live WoW I didn't make any new friends in ages cuz all the people I play with are from whatever realms,.

[@MalpheusTheMalefic]

+Turbotef ^This. Don't understand why people have to complain about this shit. I mean sure for people who have no life(no school, job etc..) they can spend a year to get gear but some people got shit to do. Black desert isn't so much better either all it is, is constant grinding over and over.

[@NjoyMoney]

Turbotef Dungeon finder is trash, the downsides are way bigger than the upside. Biggest downside of dungeon finder is that you dont have to travel to the actual world anymore to enter the dungeons, going to the dungeon was an adventure in it self, the PVP fights at the summoning stone were awesome too.

[@Whitewolf1984p]

Wrath fucked up wow AoE EVERYTHING no CC needed tactics pretty much went out the window, When Cata came out at first it was GREAT, The dungeons were HARD, You needed CC you needed to know how to deal with certain abilities. (Anyone recall the the mobs you had to time a jump for to avoid damage, On Normal it would half health you, In Heroic mode It would one shot 90% of people. Then babies cried and blizz nurfed it. Flying did take alot away, But the easy mode DUNGEONS hurt wow the most. It took all the skill out of the HARDEST content bar the raids. And all the dailies oh my gawd all the damn dailies, Turn em into weeklies.

[@fizman22]

+Craig Young I always say WoTLK is where Blizz shot themselves in the foot. It was a great expansion but where TBC improved on Vanilla, WoTLK fixed what wasn't broken. They gave every class a CC and an AoE with their "bring the player not the class" mind set, which I think is fine. But just because everyone can AoE doesn't mean everyone should AoE! I mean most classes can now CC so the Ele sham wouldn't get left out of a Heroic like in TBC, but it was just an AoE fest. If a Paladin tried to AoE tank a Shatt Halls pull he would just die from the raw damage out put. Neutering professions inflated the fuck out of the economy, thus kind of ruined world content. Since farming gold was a big reason to go outside.

[@qk-tb2df]

I actually enjoyed t11 cata quite a bit, but once firelands hit I went bye bye t11 was the last time I was in progression raiding, and had fun in PVE

[@merccc1]

Exactly, It was my first experience and it blew me away. I always had fun, best moments were adventuring and learning new things, slowly progressing. Making friends with people along the way, working to form groups to raid with. It was the adventure of it, not to mention the look of the world is pretty great. I was early into the new expansion and all seemed well, but then people acquired flying mounts and I stopped seeing people except for when they randomly show up from the sky for a split second... Lost contact with people and eventually quit. That is why the first expansion was actually great. It started and was fun for the majority of it, but only became bad near the end when things like that started happening.

[@Regonix]

Vanilla was the worst part of WOW.

[@TheDisturbed0ne1]

+Re Ja I never hit 60 in vanilla, and I still believe it's the best one. I remember how me and a friend, two lvl 40ish gnomes, travelled to Thunder Bluff together just to explore. I remember my first trip to Ratchet, I remember getting excited for collecting my first gold. What is there to do now? Que up into a raidfinder and harvest your crop in your garrison? I am currently playing on Nostalrius (Vanilla private server) and am closing in on max level, and it´s SOOO much better than retail! The world feels alive, and you meet new people all the time.

[@kooken58]

+Re Ja Only if you had ADD or no patience. Personally I think anything post BC was the downfall of traditional MMOs.

[@Cinnamon1080]

+ThePesmergia If the PvP was balanced I could, sort of, agree, slightly, with world PvP.

[@higochumbo8932]

+ThePesmergia Aaahhhh Nesingwary's Expedition.... Good times.

[@Lupinemancer87]

+Re Ja Wrong!!!!

[@FrexieFrex]

Isnt all of this just a Personal preference?

[@someoneinthecrowd4313]

+Frexie No.

[@TheHammerDedicated]

+Frexie its the personal preference that makes 70% of wows pop leave, so he is not alone in thinking all this.

[@PimpofChaos]

+The Hammer Dedicated wow has more subs than Vanilla average at this moment. So suck it up.

[@TheHammerDedicated]

PimpofChaos nope, they didnt even dare to release playernumbers after the last one show they are down to vanilla numbers. so now they are even lower :(

[@TheHammerDedicated]

PimpofChaos www.sggaminginfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/wow-sub-numbers-1024x342.jpg see here ? get your facts straight

[@Tappettava]

I think there was a stripped down version of the dungeon finder before WOTLK. I quit during the end of BC and remember using a group finder sometimes. If I remember correctly it just found a group from your own server, but it did not teleport you or anything. It helped a lot with grouping times since you didn't have to be in the same zone in order to find each other.

[@HCSR2]

Kungen 2016 - Make WoW Great Again

[@Onslaught0830]

+HCSR2 WoW sux ppl who play this game 10yrs+ sure have some braindamage

[@m1n1s1nk]

+HCSR2 Why would he do that when black desert online is here to take its place.

[@HCSR2]

m1n1s1nk Because many good games is better than just one good game and a lot of trash. Remember that WoW becoming king is what led to its downfall. No one to compete with, no reason to improve. With that said. Black Desert looks fun as a pun.

[@eagleshot1337]

I started in vanilla and I couldnt agree more. Great video.

[@GurrzeeeHD]

+Marcus B. Kronos EleGiggle

[@harm991]

I wonder how much can be attributed to the 'novelty' aspect of leveling, pvp'ing and raiding

[@0ester]

For me the community didnt die until the automatic queing thing in the last patch of WotLK.

[@Nnelg9111]

I would consider playing WoW if they opened up a vanilla, BC or wrath of the lich king server.

[@Ralizer]

+IFailAlways - Nnelg vanilla yes, i quit during wotlk

[@Userius1]

Wrath was the best. Vanilla had so much stupid shit.

[@KNByam]

That's coming soon. Soon they will bow to the pressure and bring back servers like those. Sadly people are willing to pay for it and they still unwilling to implement it. But they will later on.

[@Tunaerex]

type in elysium project on google, big vanilla private server

[@chaosd.emperor7462]

They will never release legacy servers. Just play private servers and stop hoping for them :)

[@Weird-City]

I have never played an MMO and don't even know where to start :( But I feel I am missing something. Anyone recommend a good starting point. Do I play a campaign first or straight in?

[@Unchainedboar]

i played WoW for 11 years but i decided WoD was the last straw for me, i am done with WoW it is just not fun for me anymore, the game that i loved is gone

[@James_na8c]

+Unchainedboar ikr legacy pls

[@Unchainedboar]

Jack Burton go back to your garrison your facebook game needs you

[@ItsBoyRed]

+Jack Burton garrisons are back in legion, just saying

[@TheBlorgish]

+Jack Burton because everything gets altered with each expansion. I joined a 60 twink guild to see what redoing content would be like. We cleared MC first try with 14 people. It's not the same thing lol

[@DiscoveryImmortality]

+Unchainedboar Try Guild wars 2

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Man, you think EXACTLY like me! Nice video

[@HeyYoFabels]

LFG was added back in TBC, you could even queue up for group quests in Nagrand...and world PVP wasnt even close to dying in TBC or Wotlk with the zone events

[@Waarr909]

Cant agree more :) FUCK flying mounts !!!! Cant wait for BDO anymore

[@Olssonricky]

+Michael Koch heard that they might add flying mount later on BDO but not sure if it, hope it is not true, its awsome as it is.

[@P_ounds]

+Michael Koch Cmon early release!

[@XBLlog1cS]

here we are 6 years later

[@fer563]

@kungentv can i please know what game are you playing there at the end?

[@amirforoughi5766]

Did u finally realize what game it is? I'm wondering as well!

[@Scanini]

As a high end raider in Vanilla/TBC it was immense, LK on I spent 95% of my time sitting at the postbox. WoW was awesome then catered to the whiners and generation entitlement.

[@sheevthewireless110]

9:35 Best part. Nihilism explained.

[@closotezuka]

the combat in black desert is so hard though, like im not even max level and im already having to use shift key binds...

[@FlawedFabrications]

"Pay me money to join my guild of zergling scrubs who can't play." - Kungen 2016.

[@Scubaskot]

i could not agree more ...

[@FAPDegren]

Kungen, I wish I'd seen this video sooner. I rant about this shit ALL. THE. TIME. and you put it much better than I ever have. Had some world firsts, success in arenas, etc. None of that matters because the community died and I felt no connection to my server or the game, fuck it.

[@Tarneyable]

"One guy couldn't find the dungeon... one guy left... FUCK."

[@Sincroix]

The one thing I disagree with you about is the 2 drop idea for 40+ people in a raid. Seriously, how is that fun? It becomes a job, and you have to gear ALL THOSE PEOPLE to survive the next tier of raids. That's what, 8-12 slots per Char. With the event timers locking you out of events for 3 to 4 people? Sounds horrible tbh. Especially if it's DPS based. Raiding sucks, but in the off chance there is some, at least make the looting not become a job. That's the only thing I disagree with you on, but otherwise, solid video. Nice work.

[@52factorial-prob]

+Kruseid I do agree with this point. I remember a 3 month dry spell for priest loot in MC. Put our priests back several months on gear and we all had stupid amounts of DKP. Some of us even levelled alts to spend the DKP on that way!!

[@TheYuxiaodi]

+Kruseid It didn't become a job. You seem to be labouring under the illusion that no epics means no performance. (or gear = skill) But it wasn't so back then. The gear you needed to begin MC was all blue and lasted well into BWL. It was more about coordination, skill and knowledge than simple gear levels and raw numbers (like we see today). And that was cool. When you finally got an epic that you had wanted for ages you were ready to throw a party, you'd bubble with excitement.. how do you feel about getting an upgrade today? A comatosed hamster would seem more excited... it just doesn't have that "fuck yes" effect anymore.

[@Zlazuja]

+Kokainuser yes, which is why certain bosses in AQ and Naxx are, to this date, some of the longest living in the history of the game, pure casual mode

[@necr0wok292]

the issue with flying mounts is not even just the social factor. in any other addon after they released flying mounts they had to take the time to design all locations reachable and nicely looking from every corner. As much as fancy all new locations look, you get the feeling what kind of time must have went into creating them than concentrating on actual content.

[@sam63333]

you are damn right!

[@AurioDK]

Priorities have shifted, plenty of people playing mmos who simply don' t have the time on their hands which vanilla WoW required. Back then I was a student with time to spare, today I can barely make time for anything and at the weekends I might only have max 2 hours of gaming time. I do enjoy mmos though and a lot of people at my age do too. I still remember having to kill millions of turtles for leatherworking, I did it happily back then ... today it would probably make me vomit.

[@Frankthetank302]

+Aurio DK this my man.. Ppl have to work more to keep a house food etc the 40 hour a week job just doesnt cut it aymore on top of the biggest precentage of ppl who played during the WoW Prime time of its life are now adults "that age group being High schoolers-Late 20's when WoW was in its prime " Now have families, work, and just Other stuff in life thats personal, . Dont get me wrong this isnt the only reason there are plenty ingame reasons too "its not the Shiny toy it used to be". but WoW it self has turned into a Solo game in a MMORPG a bit and thats helped ruin it too but what you said is the biggest factor "Life and time"

[@Ares42]

+Aurio DK While it's a reasonable argument it's just bad business for the developer to follow it's audience in that way. If all they aim to do is please the audience they have the game will slowly but surely fade away (as it has) because it's impossible to keep a 100% retention rate. However if it keeps the same appeal it used to have, while it will lose players like you who has "grown out of it", it will steadily get an influx of players who are just like you were 10+ years ago. Think of it like a helium balloon. They can keep selling them the way they are and new kids will always love them, or they could try to keep the kids who loved them 10 years ago interested in them again by making "adult balloons". I think it's pretty safe to say which strategy works the best.

[@Frankthetank302]

I haven't out grown it lol.. I play WoW and FFXIV still work 40 hours a week spend time with my gf and go to the gym 4-5 days a week! and still manage to get all the end game stuff done :3 on both games just fine lol

[@urbadkids]

+Aurio DK not everyone is your age lol

[@official_uhu]

+Frank Mcmanus your day must have 40 hours...

[@johnburn872]

10:24 most raiders do not even clear entire raids on Mythic

[@sareloka7167]

Then they are bad as fuck. Mythic raids are nerfed to the Ground at some time and not a challenge anymore.

[@naywils]

Once this game dies down you'll just say the same thing. But I do agree that flying ruins the game.

[@Attlaz92]

Black Desert Online PERMAGAME best MMO ever - Kungen Quits 1 month later.

[@mateusalbuquerque4433]

BD is a good game with a bad publisher. They went full Jew with their NA release. It almost got revived ever since last month because of stubborn YTers and streamers who throw tantrums whenever you point this out to them, but because they can actually attract people to whichever game they play , it almost managed to become relevant once more. But I stand by the fact that people will quit again as soon as they notice how retarded the grinding system is there; which in itself isn't a problem , however PAYING for the grinding to be reduced is just ridiculous. There is a post on their forums that explains this very well , just do a quick Google search and you will find it. Sad how almost all of these "WoW killer" games just die off like this because they go full Capitalism Simulator on their playerbase which are tired enough of every single RPG coming out being a retarded P2W cash grabbing rip off game.

[@soren777]

Is the game he is talking about Black desert Online ?

[@kimaguretv1103]

yes m8

[@Varyalover]

Full capitalism simulator isn't necessarily a bad thing, Mateus. The key is to attract as many people as you can to spend as much money as they can. Black Desert tried to take in more money, but lost spenders as a result, meaning they failed the bid. Remember, failing is just as capitalistic as success.

[@iller3]

Black Desert is fine ... as long as you're a Lifeskiller. ...the minute you let yourself get sucked into the fake phony illusion of Grinding+RNG _to-be-PVP-competitive_ ... is the minute you sign your own Uninstall Warrant.

[@SmithyD86]

Glad I found this video. Veteran guild leader here from Burning Legion -> Magtheridon called "GrimSoul Legion" - day one guild. The community on our server/s were fantastic. I still remember having messages off the likes of Jihan, Nessaj and that English priest who made some of your videos (nice guy) asking me about the attitude and performance of players that had applied to your guild from ours. This just doesn't happen anymore. There are no consequences to being an idiot on the server as your reputation means nothing. I feel like our guild was a bit of a feeder to Nihilum; gorkak, zigawraith, lewt, gotica, wt, zarek and many more but it genuinely never bothered me... Giving references for videos games, how much more immersed can you get! Deomass / Kebbaz.

[@Vlyse]

WoW isn't just no longer Vanilla, just no longer an MMO, it's no longer a good game, and that's the real issue.