Why Does Russia Hate the West (and NATO) - TLDR News

A lot of the current dispute between Russia and Ukraine boils down to Putin's dislike of NATO - so we thought it was worth unpacking why Russia hates NATO so much and what this means for the stability of the continent.
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1 - DAlperovitch/stat...
2 - www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/ne...
3 - www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/to...
4 - www.nato.int/acad/fellow/97-9...
5 - www.nato.int/docu/pr/1999/p99...
6 - www.nato.int/acad/fellow/97-9...
7 - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_...
8 - web.archive.org/web/200802251...
9 - www.nato.int/nato_static/asse...
10 - www.newsweek.com/west-libya-b...
11 - jpia.princeton.edu/news/echoe...
12 - jpia.princeton.edu/news/echoe...
13 - jpia.princeton.edu/news/echoe...
14 - www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/to...
15 - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlarge...
16 - www.newstatesman.com/world/eu...
17 - en.kremlin.ru/events/president...
18 - NATO AND RUSSIA: A VIEW FROM MOSCOW; Sergey Rogov
19 - en.kremlin.ru/events/president...
00:00 Introduction
00:45 Disclaimers
01:23 How Russia Sees NATO
01:58 "NATO is Not Purely Defensive"
02:46 NATO and Kosovo
04:45 NATO and Libya
06:52 "NATO is a Political & Cultural Project"
08:22 "NATO Continues Anti-Russian Policies"
10:00 Conclusion

[@srashidi5885]

'NATO requires the members to uphold the rule of law, civil rights, and democracy.' Are we pretending to ignore that Turkey is NONE of that? lol

[@havocgr1976]

According to the NATO spokesman "Turkey is a special case", he just repeats that again and again if they pressure him for an answer.

[@view1st]

And Israel, a _de facto_ member of NATO (or is it _de jure;_ hasn't Israel recently been admitted as an honorary member? Couldn't be sure).

[@kraftrad7840]

Before Erdogan, turkey was like this

[@mitonaarea5856]

And also that Portugal entered nato in the 50s while it was a dictatorship.

[@renumihai5263]

​@@havocgr1976 ofcs is "special" because the military power it have

[@IsYitzach]

"If you're enjoying our coverage of these on going tensions..." I can't say that I'm enjoying the coverage. It's quite depressing actually. But the work is quality and worth a subscription.

[@euansmith3699]

"For more existential dread, try out these other TLDR channels." 😆

[@realtimestatic]

Im not enjoying the tensions but I’m enjoying the coverage

[@MiouMisaki]

@@realtimestatic Im not enjoying the coverages but I’m enjoying the tension

[@teabee5168]

@@MiouMisaki I'm not tension the coverages but I'm enjoying the enjoying

[@MiouMisaki]

@@teabee5168 I’m convering the enjoyment of the people enjoying covering enjoyment of tensions

[@ElzariusUnity]

Here's a little insight, into why Putin has such a large base of anti-western supporters among the 35+ population. When the Soviet Union collapsed, the USA was not ready for it. It was not expected. So when Yeltsin became the leader of the newly formed Russian Federation and invited western advisors to help boost his own position, they didn't have a real plan. They had no teams prepared, plans worked out, so they swarmed the Russian government with anyone they can get their hands on. My aunt who worked in the government at the time says that sometimes English would drone out Russian in the office. Problems were, that: 1) Without a plan, all western advisors had was basic advice, not grounded in the reality of post-collapse Russia. 2 (and much much bigger) Yeltsin was power-hungry, corrupt, and incompetent. They told him to privatize the economy. He set up a system that allowed his allies to rob the nation blind. They told him to decentralize the state. He turned regions into private fiefdoms for his friends can rule like little tyrants, dismantling whatever structures USSR had to reign in such people. And so on, and so forth. The Dashing 90s. People were starving, living in complete poverty, and in a state of constant terror. Police and government worked for hand in hand with organized crime. All while that drunk idiot and his oligarch friends were selling anything of worth for scrap metal. And the American shadow was one step behind them. And so many countries were "assisted" by the West after USSR's collapse. Why did so many easily transition, while Russians had to fear for the lives of their children? In the Soviet Union, you can keep doors unlocked! Now you have to barricade it at night. The West chained itself to Yeltsin and his actions. West=Yeltsin=90s. What's more believable? That Western powers fucked up and failed to see who they were jumping into the bed with? Or that they used that drunken fool in an attempt to permanently nail the Soviet coffin shut? I'll hint - people don't think the American government was stupid. This post-90s generation will always support anyone who antagonizes against the West because they had a taste of "western values", and they did not like it. Nostalgic on everything good that the USSR had and seeping the misery of the 90s, they will burn Putin at the stake if he so much as hint at western cooperation. Until they become a complete minority, I don't think we can get over with this 20th-century shadow.

[@choibtc6121]

wow, very good comment with low like count.

[@ElzariusUnity]

@@choibtc6121 well the video was out for a long time. So it's a little late to the party

[@weareallbornmad410]

Oh I believe that the US government is stupid. I also believe that it's malicious. USA has a long and clear history of destroying countries for fun and profit, particularly those that challenge capitalism's hegemony. It's on the goddamn wikipedia. I'm sorry, but if you want me to believe that everything that happened to Russians after the collapse was just a bunch of unhappy coincidences, maybe you shouldn't have done everything in your power to cause that collapse.

[@goldminer754]

@@Scriptorification How about instead of just shutting off when such people from east Germany speak we listen to them. They are the ones who still know in what ways life was better in the DDR than now, they are the ones who had to live through the robbery by the Treuhand. We should not antagonize them but listen and undo some of the harm that has been done to the east by the BRD.

[@patrickganly5206]

America will soon be communist also after the upcoming revolution disenfranchises it's greedy capitalist pigs. It will then be called the USSA (UnitedSocialistStates of America) ✌😎

[@izdagrimeyone]

Bravo, this is one of the few times I heard both sides of a story. I'm officially subscribed

[@ScuffTuff]

Russia only being invaded 5 times in the past 500 years is kinda impressive given it’s Europe and everyone was invading everyone.

[@maelstrom254]

Didn’t counted Mongols and Japan

[@maelstrom254]

Sweden counted as one, but there was 12 wars

[@addiction4062]

@@Stevie-J it really isnt. america is the political succesor to france and britain both of which worked for centuries to contain russian interests away from europe. also as soon as berlin fell the west was very quick to work together with "ex"-nazis against the soviet union.

[@hathawayrose2183]

@@Stevie-J America is now the belligerent power in the world, a power that says one thing and does another. And even as a Briton I now see the USA as the greatest threat to world peace. The way the USA is behaving now reminds me of the lynch mobs of America's past: choose a convenient scapegoat, and spread fear and hate through false accusations, and go on repeating those same accusations until people start believing the lies... Today the USA is trying to demonise both Russia and China and many of us in Europe have no wish to be a part of this modern day US lynch mob mentality.

[@youtubewatcher7570]

It's also wrong

[@tolcreator1227]

In your map of NATO countries, you include the Republic of Ireland. Ireland is not a NATO member.

[@darnellbiggumsthe9th658]

exactly as we’ve always been a neutral country

[@Hilariusgamer]

@@darnellbiggumsthe9th658 because you are so far that in case of war in Europe you would be the last territory to be involved

[@Santor6]

Not yet... But will be, Ireland politics want that, and people of Ireland nobody asks.

[@redsovietcccp3228]

But for NATO Ireland are part of the british Isles 😑😆

[@darnellbiggumsthe9th658]

@@redsovietcccp3228 aye but we’re not apart of britain, we’ve fought enough civil wars for that and we have another one looming in the north

[@luisapareja6258]

Thank you so much for this video, it's great to be able to understand their point of view, specially when I feel like the argument of "Russia is the bad guy just because" has been the only thing I've heard since forever, I don't think there's objectivity in media. Of course I don't agree with everything Russia has done, but it's nice to have perspective.

[@marshallmintz7564]

Please go speak to the persons who lived since 1945 under Soviet rule. That is a good perspective.

[@mathieugariepy2948]

Experts or not, your channel seems genuinely concerned with providing acurate and unbiased information. I'm subscribing!

[@nocturnenugget]

Great video, and like you said in the last point, Russia fears a repeat of all of the western invasions. However the West has also always feared Russian domination, which is why the UK and France both intervined in the Crimean war in the 1800s, as it was to prevent Russia from growing too powerful and dominating all of mainland Europe. It's been a mutual cycle of fear, as Winston Churchill said "in politics no enemies nor allies are permanent, only interests are" or something along those lines, Russian interests have always been to protect the russian heartland by pushing the frontier further west, while European powers always wanted to contain Russia before it swallowed all of Europe

[@Jake12220]

True, but the Ukraine only became a problem when it or rather certain groups tried to make it non neutral. It was meant to be a buffer, it would be fine if it joined the European economic union, but not the military. There is also a question of what do the people in some areas want, like spain with Catalonia there are parts of the Ukraine that dont want to be part of it(often for similar reasons, different culture and feeling underrepresented).

[@Nik-tm6vq]

Yes But Europe colonised third world countries nobody cares about that

[@rakharashya1434]

@@Nik-tm6vq I mean, yeah, Russia is also apart of Europe, they had their own colonizing share as well, the US also did colonization directly and indirectly. So whether they colonize or not is irrelevant to Russian and Ukrainian conflict, although Ukraine themselves hasn't colonized anyone yet

[@rakharashya1434]

@@Nik-tm6vq I mean, yeah, Russia is also apart of Europe, they had their own colonizing share as well, the US also did colonization directly and indirectly. So whether they colonize or not is irrelevant to Russian and Ukrainian conflict, although Ukraine themselves hasn't colonized anyone yet

[@user-si2dr1pn3p]

The European powers have absorbed half of the world.

[@patrickstar5136]

Honestly 5 invasions in over 400 years is not that much for an European country. France got invaded more in less time.

[@ararune3734]

Conveniently fails to mention Russian invasions in Europe.

[@badluck5647]

@@ararune3734 Russia caused the only European invasions of the 21st century- Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine in 2014.

[@michaelmanning5379]

Weirdly, the Crimean War was omitted. Britain, France and Sardinia invade the Crimean Peninsula to support the Turks.

[@jebatevrana]

True, but even one is enough to make you not want to suffer subsequent ones.

[@valenrn8657]

@@michaelmanning5379 British Empire is long dead while Russian Federation still has most of the Russian Empire's land territories.

[@supersuparan]

Love the explanation! Thanks for sharing.

[@wezlo8328]

Subscribed... Only channel I've seen giving the other side's viewpoint. Top job just need to go see if all this is correct now. 👍

[@danielconde13]

Well, when Portugal entered NATO in 1949 we weren't exactly a Democracy delight... not until 1974.

[@Fuhrerjehova]

And Turkey isn't one today 🙃

[@teliver1]

Democracy is a political weapon

[@TenOrbital]

@@teliver1 - nah, it’s a higher political form.

[@danielconde13]

@@gracchus7782 I think the reason had one name: _Açores_ (Azores). Portugal was a neutral country, and as such we maintained commercial relations with both sides during the war, namely selling wolfram to Germany (used in cannons and other weapons). The bargaining chip with the Allies was ceding a military base in Terceira island, Azores - thus having a strategic point in the middle of the Atlantic, half way between America and Europe. Under threat of invasion, of course... Salazar's regime was only to get worse with time, and pressure over the colonial question only increased with time. But the strategic importance of Portugal allowed this early membership to go on.

[@prplt]

@@Fuhrerjehova yeah but it used to be in the past, and you can't really kick them out because they stopped being democratic

[@veryblocky]

It’s good to look at other view points and to consider different perspectives. Nice video!

[@FirstnameLastname-cx6go]

I don't care about Putin's perspective, because what he has said about his perspective is not just wrong, but fractally stupid. That is, stupid on all levels,, no matter how far you break it down.

[@TuPaLShAkHaN]

Great job guys and thanks.

[@Porako]

Informative thank you

[@Drinking1DrPepper]

I really love this channel and the content because of multiple perspectives and neutral sides. Plus historical context which I enjoy thank you!

[@naesala9296]

Neutral? Seriously?

[@Ahmed-Muflahi]

Neutral?? If this is neutral you've clearly been watching too much western propaganda, this very clearly has a bias towards the west. For example Nato's actions in Libya are mentioned but they fail to mention how they turned the richest and most stable country in Africa into a complete piece of shit that to this day has 3 different governments, terrorism, poverty, slave trafficking, etc.

[@danielbanbury378]

@@Ahmed-Muflahi though I agree with you this that the video clearly isn't taking a neutral stance. It wasn't also particularly going into the details for the invasion. It mostly covered UN support (the UN made up of many non Western Nations including the majority of the continent of Africa) and also had the support of the Arab League (an organisation of 21 Arab states).

[@armanke13]

Aside of the good analysis, props for the editor/animator visualizations. It's very cool.

[@DamienWongHK]

Great video and straight to the point

[@DontTreadOnMyLiberty]

Excellent video. This is some crucial perspective that anyone should acquire before taking a position on the morality of any international actions!

[@haiiro8610]

I'm unfamiliar with the legal contents of the UN Libya inquiry but would like to to add that Russia was hardly alone in its criticism. While there was some initial support for a no-fly-zone, both the Arab League and the African Union, as well as the BRICS countries, soon condemned NATO's subsequent broader bombing campaign.

[@OHOE1]

less goo Putin confirmed sacred of strong Sweden 9:10

[@eliahabib5111]

The point missing in the vidoe is that while NATO action might or might not have violated any UN resolution it was not a defensive action by NATO. And please notice that the problem would not have arriesed if the NATO members as individual countries has done the same. But going via NATO was needed to use the italoan airbases. This sparked a controversy in Italy since NATO action where outside the alliance agreement and in the italian constitution illigal. But the last problem was avoided by invoking NATO alliance which removed any risk of judiciary intervention. In italian eyes it was a dumb political action because it reduced italian energy companies access to the lybian resources in favour of France and UK (20/20 hindsight).

[@Quickshot0]

I guess another way of looking at all this is, is that Europe might have bit of a trauma over genocide since the last time, so they get a bit touchy over it, especially if it seems like it might happen nearby. Of course one can wonder about what followed, but it does explain at least some of the support it could get from various parts.

[@cdcdrr]

@@FableBlaze They removed a mad dictator from power who responded to protests with military force. I have no problem with the Libyan intervention, only with how little was done to help the country return to a peaceful state.

[@cow_tools_]

Also, in hindsight, the action against Gaddafi has resulted in an even bigger humanitarian catastrophe in a failed state. They should not have deposed him the way they did.

[@lavidawithjoey]

I am a long-time fan and viewer of TLDR as you promote information in a digestible, professional manner. I noticed a small editing issue at 4:07 which I have never seen before. Even the best are continuously learning. Hats off for another wonderful video!

[@antonlubichart]

Just a little fact: one of the first things that Putin did when he became a president of Russia was asking NATO to let Russia be a part of it. NATO denied his request. If you want to know more, consider watching this "Vladimir Pozner: How the United States Created Vladimir Putin". FIY: I'm not pro-Putin, I just want peace in the world.

[@somethingwitty44]

We can't have world peace until their agenda is exposed and recognized. Iraq and Libya both did not have central banks. I'm with you, friend.

[@HeortirtheWoodwarden]

Sometimes justice is more important than peace

[@conservativedemocracyenjoyer]

@@HeortirtheWoodwarden based

[@HeortirtheWoodwarden]

@@conservativedemocracyenjoyer My first based, thanks

[@kenshinvue]

Everyone is a puppet to the western world, if you step up, you're an enemy. Like what Putin said, USA have military base in almost every country, Russia doesn't.

[@marianaaksentic7963]

Great explanation...

[@tim1964x]

Unlike some of your recent videos, I enjoyed this one - it seemed balanced in perspective and informative in multiple regards, bringing together strands of information from multiple sources. Nicely done.

[@christopherwyatt2771]

Indeed. Although the implicit bias still shines through here and there. eg 2:30 "self advertises" would have been a much more neutral way of phrasing that. "Self perceives" implicitly suggests that the Russian perspective is wrong. Still, an improvement on previous videos.

[@Admin-gm3lc]

Not very balanced from my point of view, as it says that democratic country is a threat to Russia. In fact, Russia not cares, as it did not intervene in revolutions in Armenia and Kyrgyzstan. Russia perceives only modern european culture as a threat -diversity, LGBTQ etc., not traditional european culture.

[@davidjennings2179]

@@Admin-gm3lc You say "in fact" and "Russia perceives" as if you have some authority on the subject that, unless you work inside the Kremlin, you probably don't. Like all most voices on this it sounds like you're just projecting your own biases without any real research.

[@alexanderk5522]

Wow that was surprisingly neutral and informative, great work.

[@marvinho9681]

still searching for another history to see the better truth, thank for the nice presentation. highly appreciated

[@TheGolfdaily]

Much needed explanation.

[@theotherandrew5540]

What NATO says, in its self description, and what NATO does, and it's members try to do, are not the same.

[@JBX07]

No war please.

[@nicoislazy]

I agree

[@HowDoYouEatPie]

I concur.

[@aleksanderrubik.]

I second that

[@edwardhoulton8725]

Amazing description of R2P. Good stuff.

[@weekendindkpsnrasmusmax8277]

I don’t think they failed to recognize ;) this is soooo wide and you really do it. This is important for someone like me to listen to in a fair and open view

[@forkingkingdom4625]

Knew most of this but thanks for producing a video that I can share to educate others of the reality and truth regarding this topic.

[@noradrenalin8062]

Russia: NATO is a political and cultural project. Turkey: I'll pretend I didn't hear that.

[@wli2718]

it would appear that Turkey was accepted into NATO because it was the best way to launch nukes at Moscow back in those days. it was also a vital location of choking any maritime access for the USSR.

[@thealmightyaku-4153]

@@wli2718 Also because it was, overall, a stable democratic state that had deliberately and fully, under Ataturk, embraced Western civic culture and values, leaving the old Ottoman ways behind, and wanted to align itself more fully with the Western, European sphere.

[@FluffMango]

@@thealmightyaku-4153 convenient how people tend to forget that part. Unfortunate for Turks though.

[@777mustdie]

Turkey is European in many ways, including Diversity and LGBTQ community allowed exisence, the elections are very democratic from the 2000s, the only different is lifestyle and education system

[@und3rcut535]

if Turkey was not in NATO whole idea of european securşty would be gone imagine Russians are in İstanbul ffs. Europe from the south is undefendable.

[@BasketballAve]

What an excellent video

[@shyper4362]

1:54 I agree, personally, with the first two.

[@ragnorak2237]

you are forgetting that NATO was formed to counter the Solviet Union but that entity is gone but NATO remains . putin wanted Russia to join NATO in 1999 but NATO refused.

[@perfectblue305]

Russia is officially the heir to the USSR, this of course does not say anything, because Germany is also the heir to the Third Reich, it seems to me that Russia was not accepted into NATO because they were afraid that Russia would restrain the expansion of the NATO alliance to the borders of the Russian Federation, in principle, most likely it would have been but imagine if Russia were given power in Europe where it really deserves, which is exactly Belarus and Ukraine, then now Russia would be an ally of the West and would be against China and not vice versa, Russia is a key player in the matter of confronting the West against China, Russia has power over India and also over European countries, and thanks to this it can help China and China helps Russia in the economy, if it were the other way around ...

[@casualobserver2000]

to be fair, Russia knew that they would never be accepted as a NATO member - they did it to make a political point.

[@elwynjones763]

That's another story and needs some serious investigation.

[@Darian___]

@@casualobserver2000 no they didn't

[@SpanishDio]

@@Darian___ Search it on google, Russia has never made an atempt to join Nato in 1999, this is fake news.

[@stuartschaffner9744]

I can't argue much with your reasoning here, other than to point out that often economics is important, not just pride and military conquest. I doubt that it's a coincidence that this push by Russia is happening during the peak period for natural gas use by Western Europe, as well as negotiations to start building Nord Stream 2. Also, Germany is entering its next phase of shutting down its nuclear power plants, thus at least temporarily increasing its dependency on natural gas.

[@schwarzer0se463]

Nord Stream 2 is already fully built and should’ve started it’s work like 6 months ago, the only problem here is german politics.

[@stuartschaffner9744]

@@schwarzer0se463 , thanks for the clarification.

[@didierverschatse6422]

@@schwarzer0se463 , not just politics, there's also regulatory issues.

[@Davros539]

real dumb and destructive move on Germanys part

[@hendrikdependrik1891]

Germans and destructive moves go hand in hand for centuries.

[@Coffee1776]

*"Invasion looks likelier than ever."* Well, that aged pretty good.

[@WhiteMouse77]

Thank you very much for creating sophisticated content based on verified facts organized into logical picture. Great Work!

[@dierbloodrose5178]

Well I'll give credit where credit is due. Well done on making a non-biased video. It was quite informative. 💯

[@n_tataris]

Yes but Greece and Portugal where members while they were ruled by military juntas at some point. So, I’m not sure democracy is such a strong criterion for NATO!

[@havocgr1976]

Yap hilarious bs, I mean Turkey is a member ffs ;p

[@Perririri]

Only oligarchy is necessary for NATO membership

[@Perririri]

@@havocgr1976 fVck the Türkiye Republic!

[@stephenjenkins7971]

@@Perririri Then Russia should be the undisputed leader alongside China.

[@nebojsarodic1720]

Ambiguous term that can mean whatever you want it to mean. I am sure Russia considers itself a democratic state. Most countries do, yet you can use the definition of democracy to your liking and label almost any country as non-democratic. For example, the demos can never rule when you are not considering women as people and not giving them voting rights. With only this, almost none of the present democracies have been anything close to a democracy until the 20th century, since all of them decided to treat half of their population at least as not really a human being when it comes to making decisions. Slavery can never exist in a democracy either, nor can any country that considers itself a democracy step on human rights, especially in terms of denying people their rights for ethnic, religious, sexual orientation, self-determination etc. I think we can agree, if we are being honest, that human rights violations happen in almost every country, often on a very large scale. All of this has made democracy a simple buzzword in political arguments and has made it more and more devoid of meaning.

[@jaye20]

Libya and Kosovo indeed represent questionable examples of Nato interventions. Still these countries were not subject to any expansion plan; the worst part is that they are left to themselves, so mistakes were certainly made. But Syria is not in better shape despite the non-intervention. In the meanwhile, Ukraine's territory has already been invaded and we are now talking about a large scale occupation from Russia. Belarus is practically already under Russia's rule. I see the expansion theory being applied only by one side in recent history and it's not Europe.

[@petars.6210]

In Kosovo* massive US/NATO Military base called "Bondstill" was build after NATO forces came (and are still there). So what Russia did in Crimea, NATO did in Kosovo 1999. "Bondstill" is biggest US Military base build after Vietnam war.

[@jaye20]

@@petars.6210 Bondsteel camp is fundamentally American and has been heavily criticised by the Council of Europe over the years

[@southamptonfan3460]

@@jaye20 and that’s why my friend USA hates us . In all honesty I have a strong theory . And that’s just a theory that the USA and Russia are plotting strongly against the eu . Both countries have proved they hate it (have no idea why maybe jealousy ?) and ever since the war started it seems both countries are starting to take over the eus economy . Russia forcing countries to buy gas with rubles while also raising the price and the U.S. also rising its gas price . Both countries also have common enemies like the terrorist organisations and interestingly enough if you dig deeper they have fought battles together . Or as they like to call it a special millitary operation . Just find it dodgy tbh

[@matthewgadie7215]

everyone deserves respect, after that comes understanding

[@eemsg]

You seem to have a problem conflating personal liberties with economic liberalization. At several points you mention that promoting individual liberty is a goal of NATO, and imply that Putin sees this as a threat, while only mentioning in passing that NATO makes economic liberalization a condition of membership for some countries. Without wanting to get into an argument about its relative merits of economic liberalism, I hope it shouldn't be controversial to say that it's an economic philosophy that can benefit certain parties more than others, and therefore pressuring other countries to adopt it can hardly be seen as benign interest in human rights devoid of cultural and political implications.

[@johnchristmas7522]

As NATO relies heavily on the USA, its obvious the whole idea of NATO is VERY beneficial to Corporate America. The rest is just window dressing.

[@franknwogu4911]

​@@johnchristmas7522 dont speak on what u dont understand

[@franknwogu4911]

Deny right to property and right to economic freedoms is a threat to human rights.

[@eemsg]

@@franknwogu4911 You should probably learn what economic liberalism means before you embarrass yourself further. Hint: Trump's "America First" policy was extremely antithetical to economic liberalism, because outsourcing jobs to locales with lower labour costs is a very economically liberal thing to do.

[@franknwogu4911]

@@eemsg "Trump's "America First" policy was extremely antithetical to economic liberalism" and apples are a fruit

[@claw836]

Keep doing these kinds of video's, it helps everyone get different perspective views in before making conclusions. It helps people open up discussions in places that are not echo chambers.

[@BenState]

so are you just admitting you just found out another area of your ignorance?

[@terrorgaming459]

NATO invaded Serbia lybia Iraq Afghanistan illegally soon Russia is next

[@BenState]

@@terrorgaming459 purleassss. you have no idea. Back to school for you.

[@oskardahle2478]

@@BenState Uhh.. yeah it sounds like he did. But why are you making it sound like that is a bad thing?

[@BenState]

@@oskardahle2478 Its not, just lacking self-awareness

[@mariannanezhurina7399]

Thank you very much for the explaination! I would like to add Russian subtitles to this video because I think many Russians need to see this!

[@lunaandstella825]

Well, maybe Russia should ask themselves why all those slavic countries that have culturally much more in common with Russia than the EU are begging to join NATO and not Russia… Nobody likes a bully.

[@regular-joe]

👏Well said!

[@cy-one]

*nods* While Ukrainians (and Russians) as people might have more reason to see each other as brothers and sisters, I can definitely say it's a common sentiment in Europe (and Germany especially) to consider Ukrainians as Europeans. It's one of the reason they're receiving so much help. We consider them part of us (not talking EU or NATO, just "us Europeans").

[@salahabdalla368]

Well maybe other should wonder why NATO stayed after the collapse of the Soviet union It's not a defensive alliance anymore its away for America to control Europe, look at all the wars NATO got themselves into the Russian invasion started after NATO existed for 30+ years more than needed for a defensive alliance

[@fordprefect4843]

@@salahabdalla368 Maybe because people aren't gullable enough to think that a country and its people change overnight? Maybe you should read up on history and look into cultural aspects. Frankly if a NATO style organisation had being and remained in place after WW1, then maybe the Germans would not have been able to give it another go in WW2. Since the collapse of the USSR Russia has constantly showed aggressive behavior to neighbouring States such as Georgia and chechnia. The question is why would NATO disband?

[@user-ti8us1zj9t]

@@fordprefect4843 sorry but Chechnya not a state, it's part of Russia. Learn geography. And Russia put Georgia in its place, when Georgia attacked and bombed South Ossetia

[@foleylione]

I think you do a very good job of briefly explaining the Russian stance, and it’s context.

[@billyjohn9192]

It is beyond asinine to say that we bombed Libya for humanitarian reasons. They weren't from one of the richest countries in Africa to the poorest with no humanitarian aid since. What a joke.

[@Mindbodyandspirit240]

Exactly! Smh

[@daniell1483]

As a US citizen, I come out of this video somewhat surprised to see that the Russian perspective isn't entirely without merit. I think it is unreasonable for Russia to hold three centuries' worth of history against the modern political climate, however. I mean, counting back to Napoleon's invasion as a demonstration of the modern world? Madness.

[@amersonmachine3750]

For russians, history for them is their life line. Thats why they have to defend several invasions just to retain their identity. Whats your identity? Lol

[@henriklarsen8193]

While Putin is clearly in the wrong, it feels odd when AN AMERICAN talks against clinging to one's view of history.... All due respect, but Boston Tea Party, etc....

[@daniell1483]

@@henriklarsen8193 I don't take your point. Independence from British control was, again, centuries ago. Several major reshuffling of international politics has happened. Britain is now one of the US' most important allies. Relationships between nations change, especially over such long periods of time. It is one thing to remember history for what it is, it is another to base current foreign policy on distant history where circumstances were very different.

[@henriklarsen8193]

@@daniell1483 Sorry, it was the other way around. Outside the US, American culture is often seen as clinging very much to their own history as justification for a lot of things. We see Americans use constitutional interpretations to justify rampant gun culture, Pax Americana foreign policy, abuse or neglect of US citizens themselves, and more. Fair or not, it leaves a weird taste in many non-Americans' mouths when Americans argue that one should not justify the present with deeds in the past. Nothing personal, you do not seem to think that way, but it still feels a bit weird.

[@Alasterius41]

@@daniell1483 China sees things in very much the same way. And they can also very eloquently quote historical examples of western nations imposing their ideology on other nations through violent means or simply through greed or fear. The sentiment on the current situation in China is that while Russia is the ‘wrong’ for invading another sovereign country, they ‘understand’ Putin’s move because Putin cannot have NATO on his doorstep. Russia and China simply cannot understand why Western nations insist on imposing ‘democracy’ on other countries. Just because something worked for you guys, doesn’t mean that it will work for them. Similarly, just because the evil dictatorships of western countries pillaged, robbed , colonized and enslaved entire nations out of pure greed, doesn’t mean that dictatorships in their countries will take the same path. In China’s eyes, they have NEVER invaded or conquered or colonized other countries despite having been a dictatorship for almost all of its history, while the western countries who now fill their mouths with “humanitarian rhetoric” were the very ones who invaded and pillaged their country in the past, and never bothered with reparations. The West fears a non-democratic China and Russia because they were themselves evil before they became democratic, so they assume the same of others and fear those who walk a different path. As long as the West continues to fear them, China and Russia will forever resent the Western countries for what they did to them in the past.

[@l.matthewblancett8031]

i like how this describes how russia feels so invaded by Europe historically but fails to mention russias CONSTANT invasions of poland going back a thousand years.

[@jackroutledge352]

And Finland, Japan, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Ukraine, the Ottoman empire...

[@jaf5569]

the funny thing is, USA doesnt give a damn and people dont understand. USA is always in the wrong, just like what they did to Afghanistan... The Taliban isnt a terriost group, its trying to protect their country, because USA invaded it! Not because they are terriosts.

[@davidanalyst671]

@@jackroutledge352 and China

[@needatag]

@@jackroutledge352 russia never touched albania

[@needatag]

@@jackroutledge352 so in ww2 it was against all of those?

[@roooroooooooo1091]

1:20 Republic of Ireland isn't in NATO

[@drlcartman]

I’d argue the anti-western sentiments go all the way back to when the Rus’s under Alexander Nevsky (13th century) were fighting the germans (teutonic knights). He was later canonized as a saint in the Russian church and Stalin used his memory to rally Russia against the Nazis.

[@prsimoibn2710]

How about the banks?

[@gazlator]

Excellent point about the historical tradition of anti-Western sympathies going back to the 13th century; quite true. Whilst Nevsky fought to save northern Russia from the Teutonic Order, the rest of the Rus principalities (including Kiev) were overrun by the rapacious Mongol invasions, whilst the Western realms stood by blithely oblivious to it all.

[@drlcartman]

@@gazlator The Russian also spin the Mongol Occupation as an Alliance made between the Mongols and Nevsky to fight the Germans.

[@PyromaN93]

@@drlcartman we don't spin it. De facto Rus in that time was vassal state of Horde

[@arthorias06]

@@drlcartman the hell r you talking about? How being under occupation is an alliance?

[@leejohnston8667]

At least we are free to have these debates

[@plavitigar]

Gadaffi's brutal regime against rebels? WELL WHAT WAS HE SUPPOSED TO DO GIVE EM FLOWERS OR SUM???

[@bungle0h521]

"wer more than happy to be corrected" dont hear those words much anymore, especially form a news outlet

[@outerspace7391]

ikr

[@prsimoibn2710]

Foxy 🦊

[@Ashley-lm4nv]

Soviet Russia bringing military equip to Cuba. US: That's illegal. Same game.

[@mormacil]

You mean fielding Russian gear into Donbass, which would make it bordering several NATO members like Cuba is near the US? You’re right, Russia is doing it again, being the aggressor.

[@zendanceprojectarchanharmo579]

@@mormacil NATO arming terrorists around the globe. NATO is expanding and expecting Russia to sit back. That's delusional. US is currently occupying 1/3 of Syria. Do you, or anyone in the west, call that being the aggressor? Israel is occupation of parts of Syria and their illegal settlements? the days of exceptionalism are over. Also, claiming Donbass as an argument for 'bordering several NATO members' ? seriously?

[@mormacil]

@@zendanceprojectarchanharmo579 The US isn’t occupying Syria, please name a single internationally recognised terrorist group armed by NATO. You’re sprouting propaganda devoid of facts. But I see a lot of whataboutism, the hallmark of a losing argument on your side. NATO has every right to expand and Russia has 0 rights to desire no NATO on its borders. If Ukrainian wants to join NATO then that is their right.

[@zendanceprojectarchanharmo579]

@@mormacil Al Nuzra, for one. NATO is supposed to be a security alliance. So, a simple question, how is it creating security to its own members by meddling in Ukraine, which is not a member?

[@zendanceprojectarchanharmo579]

@@mormacil they are also arming literal Nazis in Ukraine.

[@rapidrabbit7175]

The simple answer: Putin has no control over NATO and feels threatened. When he goes to the toilet, he looks at the TP for inspiration.

[@ib8401]

Thank goodness for your channel where a person can get education and not just propaganda from the news channels.

[@user-pm6bd1pd4h]

Just to put things into context, those humanitarian missions were truely humanitarian. In both mentioned examples NATO countries (not NATO itself, mind you) decided to fight against tyrants to prevent them from killing others just so they can impose their own short-sighted philosophical view. You know, the thing thats happening in Ukraine right now, by a tyrant, who wishes to impose his own short-sighted philosophical worldview..

[@GideonF64.9]

Was the weird clickbait title really necessary?

[@nevarran]

Every dictator needs a boogeyman. "They are the bad guys, and only I can protect you from them. However bad you have it with me, you'll have it worse if I'm not around to protect you from them."

[@h0rk3d]

thats what governments do. create a problem they then go and solve to make it look like governments is good. in reality, governments isnt needed.

[@GoodmanEldwin]

Cool so just like the US with Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, China and Russia right? Fighting them is what brings the Republicans and Democrats together and serves as a justification for spending billions on military despite being protected by 2 oceans. Imagine if the USA had no boogeyman and how much social spending they can do with that money instead of military, maybe college students all across America wouldn't be riddled with student debt.

[@elitav5491]

@@h0rk3d You have a fundamental misunderstanding of history. Governments, generally, are the result of people encountering problems, not the cause. Granted, a religious component got mixed in over time, but even that was post hoc. Kings didn't exist because someone told a story about how the spirits choose a great leader, people who had ideas of spirits organised around leaders and then later added that the spirits probably are ah-okay with that. Does not change that the organisation and hierarchy had emerged on its own before.

[@nevarran]

@@GoodmanEldwin In a way, yes.

[@scoobydoobers23]

@@nevarran I always enjoy when the pro-Russian/anti-American folks like scgl444 do a whataboutism and criticize America and we just respond with "yeah, you're right our government sucks sometimes too." They think by saying Russia sucks we are saying America is perfect. . . .no, not at all. And we can criticize both.

[@eigelgregossweisse9563]

We're at some impasse, huh...

[@badhombre549]

To the final question...yes

[@michalslusarski]

Poland in real life: Relatively small country with history of more than 150 years under Russian direct/indirect occupation Poland in Russian propaganda: destroyer of worlds, biggest existential threat

[@mormacil]

Tenet of fascism, your enemy is both incredibly strong and incredibly weak. Russias portrayal of Poland is fascistic. Playing the victim of aggression by a weaker party is a key component of fascism. Nazis loved blaming the Jews e.g.

[@sinoroman]

Poland hating Russia is fairly modern (you get what I mean)

[@om391]

Poland occupied Russia during the time of troubles and also exploited the Russian civil war to gain land in the east so its really not unheard of.

[@chrislouis7913]

@@mormacil well yes. The russians blamed Poland for starting ww2

[@michalslusarski]

@@om391 there is really no symmetry here

[@keiththorpe9571]

For all that Putin's fears of The West might be based on the points illustrated in the video, I actually believe his animus comes from a much more personal place. He came up as a KGB agent in the crumbling last days of the Soviet System. He saw The West as an implacable enemy that was bent on Russian destruction, and he worked in a system that served as a bulwark against that destruction. Then, in the late 80s and early '90s, he saw that system humbled and brought low, all without a shot being fired. He hates that, and wants to reverse that humiliation.

[@FULANODETAL]

and puttin never realize what shitty was the comunist thing??

[@itsblitz4437]

Honestly it sounds awfully similar to what Hitler felt and needed to do when Germany was brought low.

[@Messier__]

@@FULANODETAL It wasn't about communism, that ideology had died long before the USSR did.

[@JimSendre]

@@FULANODETAL Yeah I don't think communism mattered to him all he saw is mighty empire collapse and carved up and he probably still hates people who let it happen. He didn't see USSR as a communist thing but more of as an empire I assume, or rather saw it primarily as an empire rather than some ideological project.

[@FULANODETAL]

@@JimSendre Also he must Saw how germans totaly hated It..and poles too..

[@anthonygordon9483]

NATO didn't attack Iraq, U.S. and Britain attacked. I have to mention this because we tried to get NATO on our side and they disapproved. But at the time U.S. and Britain were both victims of terrorist attacks.

[@luissabonetechavango233]

The truth is we all need security

[@tehdreamer]

Literally missed the most important point- utter lie that West told to Russia not to expand NATO after collapse of USSR.

[@stephenjenkins7971]

It is an utter lie; because no such promise was ever given by the West. A single US diplomat did, but he was reprimanded for it and it was retracted on the spot.

[@tehdreamer]

@@stephenjenkins7971 Actually, there is a memorandum document in which it quotes German representative Jürgen Chrobog at a meeting of "political directors of the foreign ministries of USA, Great Britain, France and Germany in Bonn, 6 march, 1991". Chrobog said "we made it clear in the two plus four negotiations that we are not expanding NATO beyond the Elbe. We can therefore not offer Poland and the others NATO membership".

[@stephenjenkins7971]

@@tehdreamer Except those memorandum documents were from representatives that were quickly called to scale back their promises since they were BS. The US National Security Council especially called on James Baker, who made those "iron clad guarantees" to never expand NATO to retract it, and he did. So Russia is using words that were retracted as proof that the West broke a verbal promise, not even a treaty.

[@tehdreamer]

@@stephenjenkins7971 "They were BS"? So western diplomats should not be trusted, they just lie?

[@stephenjenkins7971]

@@tehdreamer If those diplomats overstep their boundaries and rectify their precious statements to the point the Gorbachev publicly claimed that no agreement was made to prevent other nations from joining NATO? No shit. It's called human error, and it was rectified. Now if Putin can stop perpetuating this stupid lie to justify Russian imperialism, we could all be better for it.

[@qubro8507]

Very informative, thanks a lot

[@justinwales192]

good video

[@TechNerdNetwork]

"enjoying on going tensions" wtf.

[@mightymagnus]

On another historical note, during the Great Northern War (the 1700 Russian Swedish War here), the Swedes did actually help the Ukrainians of that time (the Cossacks) for their independence against Russia. But Sweden would likely not have invaded there if it would not have been the coldest winter in 500 years, which pushed them more south to warmer climate

[@alicelund147]

No Russia and other countries declared war on Sweden, It has nothing to do with weather.

[@ivanvoronov3871]

Well calling zaporozian cossaks Ukrainians is a bit of a stretch. They were definitely one of the ancestors like kievan rus is to russia but not the same thing. Ukrainian as an identity really begins in the 19th century with poets such as Taras Shevchenko who in manyways is responsible for the Ukrainian language. Then Ukrainian gained a national identity as a consequence of ww1. Very brief overview overview .

[@zrikizrikic9126]

first of all if you state something then state Ukraine means border..and cossacks were 70 percent russian vagabonds so basicly if if Sweden helped then helped cossacks pillaging poland litvania which sededen wanted .. on other hand did vikings or swedes helped cause cossack is term for vagabond same as it is for viking one who go to steal pillage ect.

[@daxasd3270]

@@ivanvoronov3871Schevtchenko and others are responsible for literature and romantic national ideas - the language "ukrainian" (basically slavic) itself was predominant in a bigger area than modern Ukraine. It's just zaristic russo-imperialistic repressions of ethnic minorities started way earlier than the 19th century - thus no ukrainian schools were allowed to exist, literature was censored and so on. Russian nobility and russian military apparatus were quite sophisticated in their job, especially in killing off all the cyclic rebellions against the russian zaristic presence in Ukraine. Russian empire was genociding around the 19th century against everyone anyway, including the caucasus. Cities like Kiyv were more like power projection centers with extensive Garissons, so no wonder they were predominantly "russian-speaking" during the century long occupation. So no, we're not brothers, we're not same and we definetly do not want to be part of the muscovites empire ever again.

[@daxasd3270]

@@ivanvoronov3871 calling russians and kiyvan rus one clear ancestrial line is a bit of a stretch. Modern russians genes and their language are somehow a finno-ugro-turco-slavic mixture - it's perfectly fine, no offense - it's just Ukraine and it's language have more in common with Poland and Polish than Russia and do not let me start talking about values and culture. In Russia it was always bullying and violence - and unless it ceases to exists as an empire - it will always be.

[@pipichi8441]

Alternative title: why does russia hate the anti-russia alliance?

[@lisastoker]

Hate is a strong word that I am not sure helps anything.

[@arsharayan435]

Very true statement

[@amidl]

As a Russian, I can say that there are many people in Russia who like the West and don't support Putin and war.

[@wothin]

I mean 'many' can still mean little, because it's mainly about the percentages

[@Kevvu1989]

@MDA 🩺 West dont hate Russian people and culture but Putuin and his actions.

[@alldarin1464]

Then why you don't protest against the government?

[@svdgnl]

@@alldarin1464 maby because Siberië is very cold

[@ThePanMan11]

@@alldarin1464 Because they'll be shot or disappeared.

[@bernardthedisappointedowl6938]

Kosovo is an interesting example of a province wanting to breakaway because the people were being treated badly and wanted to secede the nation - NATO helped that area have it's democratic will - Which unfortunately is much the same argument Russia can make for Crimea's population - and indeed probably could argue for the eastern provinces - From a Russian viewpoint (not mine personally) it's just respecting the democratic will of the local people to secede - If they organised a referendum in those regions with international observers to verity it - and it appeared a majority there wanted to secede Ukraine - it would be hard to argue against, given NATO's involvement in Kosovo - and the principle that the democratic will of the people is supported - Now instinctively, I'm not convinced that comparison is valid - but it's hard not to see the point being made, ^oo^

[@canismajoris6733]

You can't just go around annexing regions though.

[@TheTontonFlingueur]

@@canismajoris6733 if it's the will of the local people of course you can, there's the Kosovo juridiction

[@karankapoor2701]

Definitely ig Russians do have a point after NATOs Kosovo intervention

[@levak8740]

Before you comment about Kosovo you need knowledge about extensive history in that region.

[@montimuros2837]

Russia wants to annex ALL of Ukraine. Not just the east. Plus, can you really let people decide to join a regime? Would you let the Sudetenland vote to join Nazi Germany?

[@danilomitrovic3954]

Well i would like to mention something that might be not visible from start. Notion of polarized democracy. Democracy by its definition is an political structure where people vote on issues to be passed, aiming to distribute power and not centralize it to a single ruler/monarch. However what people vote on is heavily determined by their own culture for example. Sparta had democratic structure, Athens as well. However main differences between those democracies were popular opinions on what life meant. In similar way, "western" and "eastern" democratic policies differ. In "west" notions of own personal identity as well as puritistic notions often tied to Catholicism are strong. For example, people are more focused on what they are and which minor group they belong. Thus why one sees predominance of "something-french" or whatever types of how people indetify themselves. On other hand "eastern" block is mostly Slavic, and as so main part of identity is being Slavic, then country you belong to then whatever else there might be. So for example in determining values of specific issues such as liberal, traditional, ethnic. By large simplification "west" would order them as liberal, ethnic, traditional while "east" would order them as ethnic, liberal, traditional. So this is where shit hits the fan. If, for example, global concensus would be formed on liberal issues "west" would make it a topic of highest priority, while "east" would take it's time getting there. So from "west" point of view it is disregard of human rights, and from "east" point if view it is useless endeavor because there are pressing things to consider. Both are democratic, just different value sets.

[@anthonyr.hodgson9988]

The hate is mutual it’s a struggle fort control and influence

[@mightymagnus]

On a historical note, it is not that all invasions towards Russia have been through Ukraine. During the 1600 the Swedish invasion was from the north capturing Novogord and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth went through what is now Belarus (Smolensk was even in the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth) towards Moscow (were both sides fought about Moscow). But it is half true in other examples

[@Conservator.]

Also most ‘Russian’ casualties in WW2 fell in Ukraine.

[@kamilszadkowski8864]

Yeah, the better example would be the Polish-Bolshevic war which indeed started with the liberation of Ukraine by Polish Legions.

[@JC-sp6ov]

Fan du vet mycket, Har du en tre krona tatooering?

[@redkraken6516]

@@kamilszadkowski8864 liberation or rather ocupation?

[@dorinpopa6962]

@@kamilszadkowski8864 hahaha, liberation, yeaaah. Western Ukraine was annexed and during the time that it was controlled by Poland it tried to assimilate Ukrainians and closed Ukrainians schools and tried to make them use Polish. This spilled into ethnic conflits and was one of the reasons of the apparition of Ukrainian ultra-nationalism and the beginning of OUN-UPA.

[@leonardschoyen]

While it's true that European countries has attacked Russia quite some time over the years, it's not too dissimilar from how much any European country is attacked by the surrounding European countries... It's not specifically towards Russia; Europe was simply a warfilled region.

[@antoinedemm7533]

I wish I knew what it was like living in a country with a history of being invaded... unfortunately I am french and everyone knows France has never been invaded before.

[@Duck-wc9de]

@@antoinedemm7533 WW II and the end of the napoleonic wars

[@haeveen8255]

@@antoinedemm7533 . Hope that your nation won’t be fuck up by another Winter.

[@_asphobelle6887]

@@antoinedemm7533 Yeah, right, that's why we all speak the Gaulish language of our ancestors, right ? Since then France was only invaded by the Romans, the Franks, Burgundians and Visigoths, the Ummeyad Muslims, the Vikings, the English, the Prussians (twice) and the Germans (twice); and that's not counting armies only going through (Hannibal), or peaceful population moves...

[@reizayin]

@@_asphobelle6887 pretty sure he was being sarcastic

[@gammingfreak5271]

Republic of Ireland in not a NATO member, the map showing NATO is incorrect.

[@workingproleinc.676]

7:25 Shill Harder

[@GT-tj1qg]

This is a brilliant video with an enlightened neutral perspective

[@tomwalsh1661]

Great video. I would just like to point out that Ireland is not part of NATO. No hate, I found this video very informative

[@underdogg8240]

Just one question - why, in the era of 2022 are centuries old grievances being over lost territory being made and issue? I´m not a big history buff but there seems to be more underneath the surface here or is it just national historical pride?

[@Jabberstax]

You may as well have made a video about why water is wet.

[@brandonhassell9583]

Someone must’ve said this too, but I think Russia is also concerned with western cultural ideas too (gay rights, feminism and other liberal ideas coming to a culturally conservative state) I think Putin sees NATO as a project to spread those ideas into other parts of the world.

[@Gospodin_Kurac]

Isn't it so? Why USA/UK must impose that Western mentality to Slavic countries?

[@furiosa1203]

@@Gospodin_Kurac If basic human rights are a problem for your culture, you got issues. I am in a NATO country, and not once has anything been forced upon me or my conservative parents.

[@Gospodin_Kurac]

@@furiosa1203 Haha really? You fckn people are amazing. Get schooled in history first before you make such dumb statements. So you're saying it's ok for NATO to impose "democracy" by force? You obviously think that Slavs are some savages just because they don't align with your Western values. Such hypocrisy.

[@stephmod7434]

BASED!

[@terrorgaming459]

@@furiosa1203 shut up us Brits should join Russia

[@Eikenhorst]

This is one of the best videos TLDR ever made! It explains so much in such a unbiased point of view

[@justincampbell4073]

Yes I think they will

[@georgeaird4637]

09:20 You probably could've added the Crimean War to that list.

[@Draktand01]

Using the Swedish invasians as a pretext is laughable. After all, that only happened after Denmark-Norway, Poland-Lithuania, and Russia decided to attack Sweden from all sides. There wasn’t really much ideology involved other than the old classic imperialism and authoritarian monarchy employed on all sides of that war. Whether one side or the other can claim the moral high ground about freedom and whatnot isn’t relevant here, as it wasn’t really a major motivation for the rulers of the time, at least not in relation to the war.

[@Draktand01]

@QuantumMeme Yeah, though the scorched earth strategy employed by the Russians to slow down Napoleon was quite bad too. Though, it’s probably not the only time the Russians did that against invaders.

[@SamFisk]

Putin is just giving excuses as to why his actions are justified, it doesn't matter if those excuses make any sense.

[@Draktand01]

@@SamFisk Yeah, but that’s all the more reason to refute those claims. Putin’s target demographic with these claims is of course the Russian people. I’m sure there are Russians in this comment section, so I y’all to at least keep this point of view in mind when justifying your worldview. If you’re gonna try to justify nationalism, at least do it using facts!

[@derorje2035]

Yeah, therre have been more important Western military actions in Russia. France and UK fought alongside the Ottomans during the Crimean War and UK and other western countries fought the Red Army during the Russian Civil War.

[@kamilszadkowski8864]

"After all, that only happened after Denmark-Norway, Poland-Lithuania, and Russia decided to attack Sweden from all sides." --- Correction *Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth DID NOT attack Sweden.* Commonwealth's parliament did not endorse the war.

[@hblaub]

"Political and cultural project": You could have mentioned the fact that the U.S. has about 80000 troops in Europe and those people bring American food and values with them. That's of course an influence, going far back. For example, Elvis Presley was stationed in West Germany for 17 months, back in 1958.

[@koc988]

A number of European bands have toured in the US as it's customary We share culture

[@johnc2438]

Yeah... Elvis' hips were an existential threat to Russian maidens! Of course when the U.S. refused to become involved in Europe in the 20th Century, that "refusal" was twice forced down our throats in little dust-ups called World War I and World War II. Better to have some troops in the game rather than turn away and await World War III. The Beatles were British, but we didn't feel "threatened" by their music or there touring American (along with other British talent). And we've always welcomed and lauded Russian artists in the U.S. Finally, we love all sorts of food from Europe -- including Russia -- and Asia. And look how the USA has been enriched by other cultures over decades and decades. It's a two-way street: influences travel in many directions.

[@LMB222]

Hi, Americans stationed in Germany hardly mingle.

[@jeanmorin3247]

The list of European wars that were created by the impression that one power was being surrounded by another one, or a coalition of other ones, is a long list. Being boxed in, particularly if this involves not having a sea port, is a situation that brings nations to move from defensive to offensive politics. Close proximity to NATO along the whole Russian Federation's border iscreating this impression on Putin's politics, and the lack of access to sea ports is an important issue on their difficulties in doing trade. Too much pressure from NATO will be counterproductive on the middle-term future. Russia will always see the West as a threat and will seize any opportunity to do damage.

[@oldpicker49]

power in numbers

[@laznoime1621]

German press in 1941: "Why Soviets hates Germans so much?"

[@stephenjenkins7971]

Bad comparison since Russia has multiple times invaded neighboring nations while the West/NATO has not, and in fact is getting requested for support by Ukraine. So let's fix that. Russian press in 2014: "Why Ukrainians hate Russians so much?"

[@laznoime1621]

@@stephenjenkins7971 Of course, you are completely wrong. In recent history Russia intervened in Georgia, which was copmletely justified by murderous attack of neo-nazi Sakaswili on Southern Ossetia. Crimea was peacefully joined Russia after nazi coup in Kiev, so this doesn't count. West, on other hand at least annually attacks some poor nation: Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iran (terrorist attack on General Souleymani), Syria, Libya, Somalia.. Plus constant economic and informational war on Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Russia, Ukraine.. Of course you are not that ininformed, but you support it, because West is fucking exceptional in your head, and has some privileges that others doesn't have..

[@stephenjenkins7971]

@@laznoime1621 Everyone Russia wars with someone becomes Neo-Nazi. At some point, people are gonna begin wondering if the real Neo-Nazi are the ones finding excuses to always be "defensive" and take new regions from their neighbors. Which nation in the past 30 years has suddenly gained new territory "defensively"? Didn't the original N@zis use the same logic in Austria, the Sudetenland, and later Poland that its either "defensive" or a "fair referendum"? Ah yes, poor Iraq that was constantly invading neighbors. Poor Serbia that was genociding Bosnians. Poor Iranian General that was organizing terrorist attacks against US troops. Poor Syria which was gassing civilians and freeing terrorists from prisons to scare the populace and which Russia bombed towns and cities with schools. Poor Somalia, which was an international humanitarian intervention to stem genocide as well. Libya is probably the only fair point you've made; though there was a UN-sanctioned no fly zone. Haven't mentioned how Russians created the referendum after occupying Crimea and shot at international observers from investigating. Also haven't mentioned how Putin lied that there were Russian troops involved and saying it was homegrown. I am literally only bitching about Russian invasion in Ukraine, smartass. The West essentially just complained about Russia stepping into Syria, Libya, Mali, Georgia, Chechnya, Kazakhstan, etc. It was the invasion of Ukraine that pissed the West off enough to start actively preparing defenses and prepare sanctions to hurt Russia. As it turns out, the West is more than capable of ignoring Russian atrocities far from NATO jurisdiction, and NATO countries knew that placing new weapons of war near Russia was justifiably seen as instigation. But then Russia went ahead and instigated new conflict by starting a war near NATO countries and now has placed 100,000 troops near them too. No, I understand that Russia has interests and geopolitical ambitions, but and so has the West, which is why they bitched but never did anything. But Ukraine, who are democratic and right next to NATO and wanted to join the EU? Russia which stole new territory? No, sorry, but this is something the West can't ignore at all.

[@laznoime1621]

@@stephenjenkins7971 Look, man. you said that West/NATO has not attacked enyone, and proved you are wrong. Idiotic attempts to justify these aggressions don't interest me.. Neonazis are people that are trying to destroy some ethnic communities.. Which Sakasvili tried with Ossetians and Kiev junta with people from Donbass.. And they got what they deserved. And they will get it again if they try another aggression against Donbass. Simple as that. Your fairytales about democracy in neo-nazi Ukraine is just a bad joke.. Before nazi putch in 2014. about half of Ukrainians voted for so called pro-Russian political options, and after putch they were banned.. Banning political options that half of people are voting for cannot be democracy.. And let's clear something up.. When we say West we think of American political class and their colorless vasals from Europe. And colorless vassals don't decide anything, just following masters orders. Economic sanctions against Russia will not hurt USA, but will hurt Europe.. And this is exactly the goal of Yankee empire: to secure complete control over their vassals economy.

[@stephenjenkins7971]

@@laznoime1621 Hmm, fine. Somewhat fair point. Let me rephrase; the West/NATO has not invaded neighboring countries in acts of aggression in the past few decades while Russia has multiple times. I mean, if you consider stopping genocide to be aggression, then that just kinda proves what kind of people that supports Russia are, huh?

[@kablg81]

Hastings Ismay the first Secretary General of NATO described the alliance as *''to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.''* So Russia is quite right in their perception of NATO. And I believe this is a somewhat of a good thing because I'm from a European NATO country as well and I wouldn't want the Russia to attack my country or other European countries.

[@jebniusjebnius3872]

Anyone that has played civ knows what's bout to happen

[@theglobalwarming6081]

The more this unfolds, the more I appreciate Attack on Titan more. Both sides in a war are just afraid of war and death. Both are interested in self preservation. I could see why Russia detests NATO and the west, but that does not excuse war. I really hope this all gets resolved without the wall titans (also known as nukes) wiping out 80% of the population

[@pittoo1317]

As all this unfolds, I can't help but think about the countless works of fiction that reflect our real world. So many of them seem to agree that pointless wars will be death of humanity. If only we could learn to take these lessons to heart, before they become reality.