Why Does Starfleet Not Cloak?

This video looks into the history of Starfleet and the Federation's experimentation with Cloaking devices and why they would even sign the treaty of Algeron in the first place.
Music from bensound.com, purple-planet.com and freesfx.co.uk
Star Trek Online developed by Cryptic Studios and Perfect World.
Star Trek, Star Trek Enterprise/Voyager/Deep Space Nine/Discovery/Lower Decks/Picard and The Next Generation are all owned and distributed by CBS.
Star Trek Films are owned and distributed by Paramount Pictures
This Video is for critical purposes with commentary.

[@jimschuler8830]

The only thing better than having a cloaking device is having a cloaking device when no one thinks you have a cloaking device.

[@Corbomite_Meatballs]

As long as you can keep it cloaked, you're good.

[@echos5823]

Right. Starfleet was the smart one here. Not only do they already have the cloaking technology, their phase-cloak research is also ahead of the competition. Yet all the while maintaining the appareance of not having cloaking technology.

[@someguy3711]

@@echos5823 Here is the problem all the people that were trying to give the federation a opportunity to correct that oversight and others were portrayed as wrong or the villians of those episodes in most of the series by the writers or at the very least tng. And were lectured by picard for violating a treaty the federation had "made in good faith ect" that the romulans and others had likely pissed all over at various times. The only group remotely reasonable in starfleet are section 31, they are not like picard obsessed with maintaining the peace at all costs. Like Sisko said in the dominion holodeck program to the admiral the price for peace is too damn high, picard would have likely given the dominion nearly everything they wanted in exchange for peace. Picard was too much of a diplomat and not enough of a fighter or a maverick like kirk was, maybe it is the tone difference between tng and ds9.

[@brooklyn560]

A cloaking device for your cloaking device

[@patz470]

Well, i can't see that coming.

[@Slavir_Nabru]

Romulan: "Ambassador, what are these reports about one of your ships operating under cloak?" Starfleet: "A simple misunderstanding Praetor. It is a phasing device, for passing through matter. Why? Were your sensors unable to detect it?

[@thebigguy13]

That's a very diplomatic answer

[@twenty-fifth420]

@@thebigguy13 Also 6-D trolling for a race that likes to pretend they play 5-D chess.

[@Enclave.]

Funny thing is the Romulans would pretty much never admit to their sensors being inferior and unable to sense it :P

[@captaingreenhat]

Damn, i was gonna reference that episode. 😂 Good shit.

[@kinagrill]

@@Enclave. 'Oh of course we can, hence why I am asking'.

[@Jelly_Skelly]

Also, The Federation's alliance with the Klingon Empire meant that they had indirect access to cloak capable ships when needed. Like when Picard confronted Tomalak, some Klingon Birds of Prey escorted the Enterprise and turned the tables on the Romulans. Also the time Picard and Data went to Romulus aboard a Bird of Prey to locate Spock. What I really want to know is, considering how close ships get to each other in Star Trek, how they coordinate movements and avoid collisions.

[@valenrn8657]

Cloak's subspace frequency hole.

[@tektrixter]

Standardized flight patterns can be used to coordinate movement. There may also be a way to transmit between cloaked ships such as small transceivers that can poke outside the cloaking field to transmit brief, low energy, signals. Those would be very hard to find.

[@stephenconnell]

Open the side window ,stick there head out and look with a flash light,

[@tjs200]

obviously, they use the deflector array to match the subspace frequency of the other ships warp drive, thereby passing right through it!

[@jamesdaniel1376]

The alliance with the Klingons was well past the original series when they agreed to not develop cloaking technology. At the time they gave up cloaking technology, they were at war with the Klingons who did have cloaking technology. It was simply a bad plot device to cover a lack of understanding of military strategy.

[@Raja1938]

The main drawback of cloaks is that they're ineffective at warp speed. Aside from the large power requirements, a cloak can't mask a ship's subspace field from an enemy's sensors. This is primarily why the Neutral Zone works as an effective deterrent, as it would take too long to traverse it at sub-light speeds.

[@Unsound_advice]

The Pegasus never made sense to me. “Let’s develop a cloak against a treaty and test it in near the race we have the treaty with” seriously? Space is big.

[@jedilasombra]

yeah but if anyone could detect the cloak and not immediately start a war, it would be the Romulans as opposed to the Klingons.

[@Dargonhuman]

@@jedilasombra True, but the Klingon border is right next to the Romulan border, so why test that tech so close to either one? The Federation is 20,000 light years wide, why not go to the other side of Federation space where neither rival power is located?

[@jm823]

@@Dargonhuman for the simply fact that if it has bugs you might be able to get technical aid from the enemy as long as you say "sorry I can't uncloak" for fear of cascading neutrinos or something technical 😂

[@pyrioncelendil]

Testing to make sure the cloak actually works is one thing. Testing to see if your enemy can detect your cloak is another. The Pegasus is basically the scifi equivalent of silent running a submarine inside a hostile power's waters, both to get intel on them, and to test how well you can remain undetected by them. If you're caught, it's a diplomatic incident that could lead to war, so don't get caught.

[@Unsound_advice]

@@pyrioncelendil I just hope that Pressman and Maxwell were brought back into the fold during the Dominion War.

[@Marcus51090]

I’d like to see the technical language describing what a “cloak” was defined as in the treaty.

[@s.31.l50]

A system of field emitters capable of reducing all detectable emission by more than 99.9%... or something. Just guessing 🤣

[@Marcus51090]

@@s.31.l50 I’m pretty sure the cloak they gave to the defiant was not the latest model.... as we all know starfleet would have analysed every single millimetre of it for secretes

[@jefferynelson]

good point, the term gives you a lot of wiggle room

[@richmcgee434]

@@jefferynelson For example, despite Ryker and Picard's assertions, the "phasing cloak" pretty clearly used entirely different principles, probably something like "things that are sufficiently out of phase don't produce a sensor return from active scans or detectable emissions for passive ones" or somesuch. Even if the treaty wording forbade it as seen in TNG, the phasing part shouldn't have been covered. Mod the gadget so you can phase out (presumably making you invulnerable to projectiles and any weapons not tuned to affect a phased-out target) at will without also concealing your sensor signature and the treaty wouldn't have applied at all. The fact that Starfleet dropped further study into the tech full-stop after a single tragic incident is another example of the hopelessly unrealistic pacifistic approach they were using in that era. And while it's very easy to disregard everything Ryker's former commander said due to his criminal attempt to evade the treaty restrictions, he was apparently correct in that the crew of the test ship panicked and wrecked the test. The phasing mechanism *did* work, and could have been made safer and treaty-compliant with more research. If it didn't, Starfleet would've needed a new flagship and the Enterprise hull designation series would be one letter farther along, with Picard and company would be dead in a space rock somewhere.

[@Noms_Chompsky]

Aha, trick question since they wrote that bit in invisible ink

[@carlosh.8097]

It's a shame that T'Rul didn't became a major or at least a regular character in DS9, she could have been to the Romulans what Worf was to the klingon. They didn't even try to explain why she vanished.

[@markmccall3813]

Of course they did. She got a better gig in the delta quadrant

[@nickhfda223]

@@markmccall3813 Didn't work out well for her.

[@marshallhuffer4713]

Gene Roddenberry also said that they didn't use cloaking devices because good guys don't sneak around.

[@JLAvey]

I guess he didn't realize the Navy was (in the 60s) developing nuclear propulsion in submarines that would carry ballistic missiles, eventually making these boomers very effective at sneaking.

[@leviosdraekion6993]

Which is utterly stupid when you think about it. Say the good guys need to get into a heavily fortified location occupied by the enemy. Which would be better? Sneaking in or a frontal assault?

[@daveh7720]

@@leviosdraekion6993 Diplomacy and negotiation.

[@andrewtaylor940]

@@JLAvey Roddenberry was a WW2 B-17 pilot. I suspect that he had a better understanding of the desire for "stealth technology and being able to sneak into and out of enemy space than most.

[@leviosdraekion6993]

@@daveh7720 so you are saying that the best way to approach the stronghold of a people you are at war with is to walk up to the front door and say you come in peace? Tell me. How many civilizations in Star Trek would rather just kill you where you stand rather than talk it out?

[@DarthAzabrush]

I go with the novel's theory that Starfleet stopped giving a shit about Algeron after the Shinzon incident and frankly I don't blame them.

[@Bitchslapper316]

I don't know, at the end of the day only a handful of starfleet personnel died and one starfleet ship was damaged. While you and I may think what happened would be a cause for altering a treaty or ignoring it the federation has always been pretty soft when it comes to things like this. For them to throw away the treaty I think Shinzon would have at least had to destroy the enterprise and also have some limited success with his plan to attack earth.

[@DarthAzabrush]

@@Bitchslapper316 I think its more the hawks in the fleet and government taking advantage of the chaos that resulted from the incident and the weakness of the Empire. Not sure if it happened in the "Prime" Timeline but we had Reamus becoming a Klingon protectorate, a human offshoot species seizing some outer colonies without reprisal and that nice fleet Commander who offered to buy Riker a drink? Yeah she went mad and declared herself Empress of all of the key agricultural worlds and tried to starve out the rest. Even before Hobus the Romunlans had seriously lost both face and stability.

[@Edd25164605]

Ive ready before that The Klingons had a technological exchange with the Romulans. The Klingons gained cloaking tech while the romulans gained upgraded warp tech and the design for D7 class ships.

[@ahhlewis_timelapses]

Klingons stole the tec

[@xavariusquest4603]

Yes.

[@otomicans6580]

The Romulans were swapped out for Klingons in Trek 3 which is why both sides wound up with a "Bird of Prey" that cloaks. Erm, cough, yes, technological exchange. We'll roll with that.

[@Edd25164605]

@@otomicans6580 . As you should. You are correct that the Romulans were swapped out for Klingons in the real world. Yet it canon, The Klingons and Romulans were briefly Allies. This is when the exchange occurred, and since were discussing fiction, I'm rolling with the 'in universe ' explanation.

[@boredalpaca9740]

Somewhere along the time when Discovery (allegedly) happened, in the canon I'm willing to accept, the Romulans and the Klingons had a technological exchange: Klingons got cloaks to set up proper ambushes to sate their honor and/or bloodlust, and Romulans got the plans for the D7 cruiser so they had some actual beef to build (until they came up with the D'Deridex and other own ships that can stand against enemy ships even without cloak). That's why I don't understand, how in the hell in DIS could an ANCIENT klingon ship have cloaking tech. They nicked it from somewhere? Or just put it in for the views and all that shiny stuff, canon be damned?

[@CaptainSovereign]

Treaty of Algeron exist: Starfleet security(section 31): I'm Gonna Pretend I Didn't See That

[@jodybranson925]

All the more reason to keep a very close eye on them, Keep you friends close but keep your enemy's closer. Section 31 is the enemy within, one you keep a very close eye on regardless of the situation

[@DarthMalgusSith_Lord]

@@jodybranson925 they are loyal to the federation by doing dirty deed for them, the federation can appeared as these benevolent interstellar states while Section 31 can do dirty stuff for them in secrecy without anyone knowing about the existence of Section 31

[@AstralArbourSys]

The rest of Starfleet when Section 31 commits genocide: I'm gonna pretend I didn't see that

[@DarthMalgusSith_Lord]

@@AstralArbourSys that's the point of Section 31, if Section 31 were exposed, the federation can cut tied with them at ease without any consequences and denied the existence of Section 31

[@yukin1990]

Or Fedreation: Fine!!!!....... we make Romulans part of the Federation!!! Resistance is futile!!! XD

[@bigfootwalker5399]

Starfleet claims it isn't a Military, a Military might Cloak to ambush enemies. Instead Starfleet says it's goal is Exploration, and therefore they don't need to hide.

[@callumunga5253]

Invisibility can also be used to allude hostile ships without violence. Or view a post-space, pre-warp civilization up close without the threat of detection.

[@BNuts]

No matter what its officers might claim, Star _fleet_ is a military organization. More specifically, it is the UFP's military arm, and can be likened to a navy, thus the ship classes and officer ranks also hail from Earth's naval tradition: frigates (Miranda), destroyers (Chimera), cruisers (Constitution); ensigns, lieutenants, captains. If it wasn't military, or even para-military, they would use such ship classes, or such specific ranks. They would probably have commanding officers and executive officers, as well as engineering and medical chiefs, but likely not the others. Starfleet also operates as a navy, with policies and procedures, including court martials or other disciplinary measures in those cases where officers disobey orders or violate policy. Unfortunately this does not apparently prevent cases like nepotism, such as the case of Becket Mariner, who should have been drummed out of Starfleet at least four ships ago. Also no matter what Starfleet officers might claim, they do have cloaking technology, and when they use it, they hope it's never found. Because that would be a mark against their reputation.

[@TheDetailsMatter]

Starfleet's writers routinely conflate "military" with "warmongering".

[@TheTallGuy1992]

The ability to hide does not always mean ambush, could be used for scientific and exploration reasons to like observation or disengagement from aggressive groups

[@bigfootwalker5399]

@@callumunga5253 You mean like starfleet viewed that non-warp civilization in Star Trek 8 (insurrection) before Data busted the whole thing up.

[@TheDetailsMatter]

Starfleet doesn't cloak because "confusion to the enemy" is preferable to hiding from the enemy. There is no treaty restricting Starfleet from developing Footprint Magnification/Minimization Systems. When the enemy's sensors can't correctly tell the difference between a shuttlecraft and a major ship of the line, or vice-versa, that's _real_ stealth technology.

[@averyyounger3755]

If your enemy can't find you, that IS confusion. If one takes a formless state, one's opponent cannot strike, surveil, or anticipate (paraphrased from Sun-Tzu).

[@tithonusandfriends8519]

*why not have both?*

[@thepropagandastudiosbrigs0927]

*General Chang might have entered the chat* Cry Havoc, and let slip the dogs of war!

[@theloweffortchannel7211]

Because trek uses FTL sensors, and I assume you are talking about lessening heat emission.

[@davidcarney1533]

I've always wondered why Klingons use cloaking devices. I thought stealth would be considered dishonourable

[@leodouskyron5671]

Worf on DS9 answered this when Doc Bashir made a similar comment. The answer was something like “Nothing is more honorable than victory” (Sorry for the necro post just wanted to point that out).

[@epiccollision]

@@leodouskyron5671 Klingon word salad.

[@leodouskyron5671]

@@epiccollision I know I don’t have a quote perfect but consider that if you are not alive you can’t say someone was dishonorable. I think that was the root of it.

[@KuLaydMahn]

"Honor" means different things depending on the culture. I mean, at the root of the word, "Honor" has a similar meaning in any culture but what is considered honorable and dishonorable varies. Iirc, the code of chivalry states that ranged weapons arent honorable but in Japan samurai were expected to be very good archers.

[@Merennulli]

They've played around with that a lot. "Honor" one day means giving your enemy a weapon so you can fight it fairly, the next day it means firing disruptors at an unarmed freighter. They tried to give a pragmatic side to it, with a key example being Worf accepting a dishonest dishonor because he had enough honor to put the Empire above himself. Weapons are a pragmatic advantage. And at that, cloaking makes a lot of tactical balances possible. 3 Klingon Birds of Prey are usually no match for the Enterprise, but with cloaking they can balance out the advantages of the superior weaponry and defenses. Unless the enemy agrees to your terms of honor, there is no honor in limiting yourself and losing because of it. That said, the "nothing is more honorable than victory" line was intentionally to make Klingons look hypocritical because some writers thought that would be funny.

[@casbot71]

One issue with the Dominion war is *why wasn't the treaty of Algernon suspended for the duration of the war?* The Federation could have used Klingon cloaks on loan from the Klingon Empire _to be returned_ at the end of the war… (because StarFleet has no cloaks of their own 😉⬛) and in return the Romulans could have gotten some nice considerations ("sorry about murdering the crew of the Prometheus") or concessions, or it could have just been argued that as co belligerents the anti cloaking measures no longer applied as they were allied. For the Alpha Alliance, the fact that StarFleet couldn't cloak was a major strategic limitation as it meant that any combined fleet could be detected (bad luck for the Romulan ships in a Battlegroup) - and StarFleet was the biggest member and had the fastest ships (on average). And limiting Starfleet in Federation only attack groups also hurt the Romulans as it weakened their allies, which wouldn't bother the Romulans unless it was the difference between a Dominion victory and defeat. The Defiant got a lot of use out of its cloak, it was a game changer a few times. And the Tal Shiar even gave cloaks to the Obsidian Order pre war for a combined preemptive strike on the Founder's "Homeworld".

[@Karnatil]

Near the start of the Dominion War, the Romulans weren't actively opposing the Dominion. They were maintaining a neutral stance, and allowing the Federation to use cloaks unimpeded would have severely hampered Romulan-Dominion relations. After the death of Senator Vreenak and the declaration of hostilities, the Romulans looked to the long-term future of the war. They were expecting it to take many years, and be interspersed with periods of peace. As such, they didn't want to give the Federation full access to cloaking technology because firstly it would force the Dominion to focus more on anti-cloaking technology (as opposed to anti-starfleet measures), and secondly it would give the Federation a chance to study the cloak themselves - once the war was over, the Romulans wanted to be able to return to the status quo where they could freely use cloaked vessels against Starfleet.

[@3Rayfire]

It should be noted that by and large the Dominion was able to penetrate Romulan Cloaks as well with an antiproton sweep.

[@casbot71]

@@3Rayfire But only at _close range,_ and StarFleet could detect cloaks as well due to leaks (that's another reason the Scimitar was revolutionary… it had a "perfect" cloak). The other issue with Antiproton beams is the Dominion had to be actively looking for a cloaked vessel - it was basically *a searchlight.* A cloaked fleet could still move around freely _without being detected_ at long range… which was very useful strategically, as the enemy couldn't see what you were up to. It's just tactically… where a cloaked ship decloaks and fires on you that Antiproton beams prevented (and only if you suspected such an attack). It's how the Klingon fleet got the drop on the combined Dominion fleet at the battle to get to DS9 (to save the minefield). The Dominion was too busy having a knife fight with Starfleet and the Romulans to actively scan for a incoming cloaked fleet flanking them.

[@shauntempley9757]

The Defiant got away with the cloak, because the Treaty Of Algeron only applied to the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Gamma was exempted. Even in DS9, Defiant was seen decloaking before passing through the Wormhole on the Gamma side heading back to DS9. On the Romulan side, their ships cannot cloak inside Federation territory, because it is an act of war. Which is why in Picard the Tal Shiar fleet did no cloak before leaving during the standoff with Starfleet. Do not forget, the Khitomer Accords banned the type of development the Spartan II programme in Halo created, as a balance.

[@Andrews__YT]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: my headcanon is that cloaking was banned on the Federation side, while the plasma torpedo (seen in Balance of Terror and never seen again) was banned on the Romulan side. If denying themselves cloaking technology, while allowing the Romulans to keep their cloaking technology, was the price the Federation had to pay in order to deny the Romulans a weapon that could travel at warp speed and smash whole asteroids to bits, it was a price worth paying. EDIT: It's been a few days since I posted this, and it's generated some nice discussion - thanks to all who have contributed. A number of people have zeroed in on my use of the word "torpedo" and cited other post-Balance of Terror instances of the Romulans possessing, or appearing to possess, what are called plasma torpedoes. As I replied to Marine Airwing, in retrospect I should not have used the word torpedo to describe the Bird of Prey's weapons; though Memory Alpha includes it on its "plasma torpedo" page, the word "torpedo" is not spoken at all in the episode "Balance of Terror", let alone in reference to the BoP's weapon. That the BoP's plasma bolt dissipates after a distance suggests the absence of a solid object such as a torpedo casing. My feeling, then, is that the plasma weapon is Balance of Terror is fundamentally a different weapon than any weapon named as a plasma torpedo used by the Romulans after that; and it is that plasma weapon which was banned under the Treaty of Algeron.

[@neilprice513]

That actually make a lot of sense. Nice one. Also in canon the power requirements to maintain a cloaked ship were enormous. Klingons couldn't keep their cloaks up for long, only using them as pounce attacks and the Romulans solved this by having Singularity Cores. Though far more dangerous than Anti-Matter Warp Cores, singularity cores give them a far greater power production potential. The Defiant had a special type of experimental high powered Warp Core developed to fight the Borg and it could maintain power under a Borg energy drain. So it was the only ship that could have a Romulan cloak installed.

[@xavariusquest4603]

I get so confused by "questions" rising for which the answer was established decades ago.

[@Timberwolf69]

@@neilprice513 Did your antimatter containment field fail? Just wondering, because your post looked a little cut short...

[@nick5661]

I love this idea

[@lanebowles8170]

I always thought the Balance of Terror plasma torpedo was some kind of primitive subspace weapon.

[@Michael29040]

So...I always wondered whatever happened to the Klingon Bird of Prey that Kirk and Crew used to get back to Earth at the end of Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home? As far as we know its sunk underwater next to Starfleet Headquarters off the coast of San Francisco...did they ever recover the ship and study it?

[@bobbyjenkins7946]

Good question 🤔

[@mammutMK2]

Officially no, section 31 "hold my beer"

[@TheDetailsMatter]

In all likelihood, they left it right where it lay, and studied it. No treaty says we can't use SCUBA technology.

[@MattMcIrvin]

@@TheDetailsMatter They could use an old American ruse: "we're mining manganese nodules on the seafloor".

[@notDr_Zatch]

I bet at least the Section 31 did it. If they not already know all secret about the Bird-of-prey. It's was a very old one.

[@fturla]

When an organization decides to not develop a technology, they do not have to invest any large amount of capital to the investment, and therefore, they can direct additional funds to other areas that need funding or invest in other technologies. It's always a calculated risk when you do not decide on going in one direction or another, but in all situations you only have limited time and resources, and you must decide what course of action will bring you the best results.

[@been01010]

NCIA-93's were clever in keeping the spirit of the treaty whilst circumventing it with such an unusual method. Lower the ship's power and use holo emitters to make the ship look like a rock floating through space. Bit limited in the application department but a clever way none the less

[@andrewtaylor940]

I think the better question was "what did Starfleet Get in Return for Trading Away Cloaks"? And what made this deal sweet enough that the Federation and Starfleet would actually honor it and treat it as such gospel? The most logical and obvious theory I have is the Romulan's traded away Anti-Matter Warp Cores and Anti-Matter tech in General. Limiting them to the bulkier and somewhat more dangerous Singularities. It's the only thing that makes sense seeing as the Romulan's are the only observed major power to have foregone the Anti-Matter tech. Both in power systems and weaponry.

[@NathanSherwood114]

makes sense. Plus I think during Balance of Terror one of the characters mentions the bird of prey is using federation warp tech or something. So a "you stop stealing our tech, we'll stop stealing yours" deal seems resonable

[@DaSuDanesi]

Plasma torpedoes, perhaps, as another comment suggested. Those things were devastating to the point of ships firing them basically being the Red October in space, and also allowing for a very narrow window of vulnerability thanks to literally only needing to de-cloak long enough to fire off the torpedo. Also, Starfleet may have seen it as less of an issue than they let on, as they may have felt that their own ability to detect these cloaked ships would stay relatively at pace with cloaking system improvements. I mean, every time you see Starfleet actually *care* about finding cloaked ships, they manage to work something out rather quickly.

[@spaceemperorkarl121]

@@DaSuDanesi In all likely hood, too costly to justify research into something that can be countered rather cheaply. When you try to make something seemingly not exist, the laws of physics are greatly stacked against you.

[@andrewtaylor940]

@@DaSuDanesi But that’s just it. Yes you can find cloaked ships. But you need to be actively looking for cloaked ships. If you don’t know there are cloaked ships operating in the area the advantage shifts to the cloaked ships. As you can’t keep multi ship sensor nets on station indefinitely.

[@GrandSupremeDaddyo]

I was under the impression the Romulans gave up fleet size in the treaty. Hence the fleet of much larger DDs to compensate.

[@IsabelLee617]

When I saw the title I immediately thought cloaks as in capes... and I was like why would starfleet need capes? 😅 great video none the less!

[@andyroidify]

spot the Brit

[@amiscellaneoushuman3516]

Honestly, now I want to see a Starfleet uniform which includes a ceremonial cape

[@NightOwlModeler]

No Capes! :P

[@seekertwo1]

It was a priority for Admiral Calrissian.....

[@a-blivvy-yus]

Well if they aren't allowed capes, what will they get stuck in jet engines to drag them to their doom?

[@808INFantry11X]

Got to bring back the phase shifting cloak

[@fordgtguy]

The Federation has plot armor, all the other major species get cloak; I guess that is a fair trade.

[@AnonEyeMouse]

I guess that plot armour doesn't work against the burn.?.

[@CaptainSovereign]

@@AnonEyeMouse Ah yes the burn...what is made by a kid by SCREAMING!..omfg

[@MrIronhat]

The fed used up their plot armor after fighting the borg a second time and the dominion.

[@kfcroc18]

I think the treaty say that starfleet can't have any cloaking starships, but they can still have cloaking things like mines.

[@stevemcqueen7735]

They were being practical and ignored the foolish restrictions at the time, to stop a real threat.

[@ozzycommander]

They were not federation mines.... they were the brain child of Rom. So technically they were Ferengi mines deployed by starfleet

[@kfcroc18]

@@ozzycommander As a great man once said "rules lawyering for the win."

[@Canoby]

I think it pretty reasonable to assume the Sarcophagus ship was an old Hur'q cruiser that had a cloaking device. Is there anything in STO that contradicts this?

[@alexandercaires5921]

At least as of now, the Hur'q don't have cloaks.

[@dongadson1099]

I thought admiralty level commanders in KDF are awarded Hur'q carriers, which I thought had cloaks. I may be misremembering.

[@jonathansullivan6706]

@@dongadson1099 Fek'ihri, not Hur'q

[@tektoy8]

I know you can’t read all (or even most) of your comments. But I wanted to say I really enjoy your videos. I’m a casual ST Fan, haven’t watched regularly since DS9. Thank you for making them.

[@AzraelThanatos]

One thing is that the Federation did go, heavily, into Stealth tech. Even civilian ships had some pretty good versions, such as the Raven being able to sneak around the Borg for some time before something went wrong there. There are also the holocloaking devices and similar such as shown in Insurrection with the blind and the various cloaked agents from the hide...and the hide itself there.

[@MoonjumperReviews]

The Romulan woman just vanished, was never heard from again, LOL! I wonder if that had any connection to her entering Garak’s shop. When she didn’t show up for work, Sisko shrugged and said, “Damn, oh well, can’t wait around for her.”

[@singletona082]

Garek: Here are recordings of her leaving my shop, a list of whitnesses who saw her leave.... And some very interesting documents I got from your personal logs I will be happy to destroy if you stop intruding on my place of business.

[@MoonjumperReviews]

@@singletona082 - seems legit. 😉

[@dariustiapula]

Because Federation *SCIENCE!* is best in the universe. No need for cloaking technology.

[@SoaringEagle128]

Is this an MF Jojo’s Reference?!!! 🤣

[@fturla]

I believe the Federation will use the Chinese method of gaining technology. They will let the Romulans develop the cloaking technology, and they will simply steal the science from them when they need to. There's no need to devote manpower to develop the science if you expect to steal it anyway.

[@90lancaster]

@@fturla That is what Exploration is for - so they can buy, trade, find or if they have to steal what they need. I suspect they never developed their own Shields and just bought them off the Andorians and Tellarites (or copied it off a recovered wreck).

[@erwinklassen8467]

Jojo

[@stevemcqueen7735]

So how did they get bent over by the borg and dominion

[@ahhlewis_timelapses]

prob cause it would be the easy way out of lots of plot endings and for example voyager, it would have avoided most major events and made it boring since you could cloak through kazon and borg space, avoid being captured or attacked.

[@grantmaxfield7301]

I always thought the same if I had of been on Voyager I would have built a cloak for ths ship to hell with the romulans when your stuck in the delta quadrant as much of a pain in the ass the romulans could be I emagin they could placated under the circumstances

[@dougsmith6262]

And when it comes to the phased cloak it would've been too OP and made Voyager's journey a cake walk, and the Federation would've steamrolled The Dominion.

[@highlordlaughterofcanada8685]

They could have come up with some technobabble excuse as to why the cloak was to damaged to work after going through the array or something, or maybe it's parts were needed to solve some bigger issue.

[@ahhlewis_timelapses]

@@highlordlaughterofcanada8685 or the ship design isnt compatible

[@highlordlaughterofcanada8685]

@@ahhlewis_timelapses True, but they did integrate Borg tech so cloaking doesn't seem like much of a step up.

[@igncom1]

While cloaking does offer powerful militaristic advantages, I honestly feel like the treaty for continued peace with the Romulans far outweighing starfleet using them. Especially when they had basically invented them anyway but chose not to use them. There is something to be said about being unstealthy to ensure that people or 'things' know you are there so anything that might be afraid of you would stay clear even if the things that aren't afraid will know exactly where you are. Outside of monstrous creatures, or violent civilisations starfleet has little to worry about attracting attention and would actively prefer that they be sought out in the accidental case of trespassing. A warbird is scary because it can pop up at any time, but a starfleet vessel is scary because you will be able to see it approach and will know ahead of time what fate awaits you.

[@markfreeman4727]

the romulans aren't intrested in peace, their just stalling until they can figure out how to conquer the rest of the galaxy

[@bradleypotts9865]

My question about the treaty, which is never addressed in the series, is what did the Romulans offer in return for the cloak ban. That is what would really determine if it was a good treaty or not.

[@wendyheatherwood]

Exactly. We can't know whether the federation were right to agree without knowing all the terms. How much territory did the Romulans surrender their claim to? Did they dismantle a bunch of military installations that were dangerously close to federation space? We're only ever given details of what the federation gave up, which makes sense because the characters we're following are usually Star Fleet, but these same arguments could be happening on Romulan vessels with some officer complaining how some planet annihilating super weapon the federation told them to abandon work on would be really useful against a borg cube.

[@igorivanov299]

They gave up working on WMD technologies in exchange for Federation not having cloaking technology.

[@TwoTailedFox666]

Klingons obtained cloaking devices in 2268 from the Romulan Star Empire in a brief alliance. The Romulans were granted schematics for Klingon cruisers, giving them warp drive.

[@darthrevan1281]

The Romulans already had warp tech, they needed _better_ warp tech, which the Klingons supplied. Given that the speed equals the cube of the warp factor, just getting from Warp 7 to Warp 8 is a big strategic deal.

[@dragonweyr44]

The ban on Starfleet and the Federation using cloaking technology while letting the Klingons and Rommulans use it never made any sense to me, it would be like if WE, the US agreed to let the Russians, the Chinese, and whoever else wanted to, develop submarine technology and not do it ourselves. WHAT THE HELL was the Federation thinking doing such a thing? Why would you let this technological advancement be restricted from you? It's stupid as hell

[@notDr_Zatch]

Bof... It's not like hundred of thing Can actually flawn ship signature...HEH. (Cloak, natural objet like nebula......)

[@NACLGames]

Makes sense to me. It may be a fictional, hyper-idealistic civilization that will even disadvantage itself to make a point. But because its fictional, it can be like that. It's intended to inspire, not act as a strict model of what can and cannot be done. Did you think people around the world see the USA that way? We certainly don't. The USA is a country that, even if we put aside clear examples of when it is totally impractical to slavishly follow ideals for the sake of real-world need, is still like any other country that first and foremost defends it's own interests even above any of the lofty original ideals in your constitution....and these interests are also written into law, meaning it's in your constitution today. Only Americans think that the USA is really ideologically similar to the fictional Federation, if not for "teh reel world issues". It's really not. If the Federation was an entity that spread its military and economic influence as far as possible into order to safeguard it's own survival and own interests first and foremost, even to the point of use of the bully pulpit tactics. Then sure. I would agree with you. Interestingly, it's just a matter of ideology. The USA has enough industrial might to win wars against any other nation on Earth even without submarines, yes even without that qualitative strategic and tactical asset submarines provide. It is the closest entity in real-life to being able to take the harder road where it operates by example in order to influence other nations. But it doesn't. Think on that, because that's my direct answer to your example. The USA is not going bottom up without it. So what does that mean?

[@valenrn8657]

Appeasement diplomacy does not work.

[@inventor121]

Ok but let's say we do that, let the russians develop and get good at submarine technology in exchange for peace for many centuries. During that time we develop anti ICBM lasers, vast fleets of fighters, and advance our anti sub warfare systems. The fact is that we would get very good at countering the threats from the submarines. The alternative to the Treaty of Algeron was an all out, drawn out, war of attrition. The federation might have won but at what cost? If they were also fighting the Klingons at that time then what was to stop the Klingons from invading with the romulans? It also looks like holographic "cloaks" aren't banned by the treaty. There are many countries that agree not to develop nuclear weapons in exchange for peace treaties and trade agreements. Not developing a tech for the existence of your civilization is a thing.

[@D2SProductions]

I love your videos, you definitely put a lot of research and thought into them. :)

[@landonkryger]

Thanks for the heads up about spoilers, I really appreciate it. Just gotta remember to come back when I do catch up.

[@ricoj810]

I think it would have great tactically, but it would have put every neighbor on edge that the biggest dog in the yard speaks of peace and yet all their ships are unseen

[@tulipalll]

Exactly. Can't just ignore relations with everyone else.

[@hobomike6935]

Well, let's see. Romulans: start a war with federation Klingons: start a war with federation Cardassians: start a war with federation Ferengi: constantly trying to steal starships and technology even when the Feds tried to make peace with them Borg: constantly trying to steal starships and technology AND citizens Dominion: start a war with federation Romulans: use cloak Dominion: uses cloak Klingons: use cloak Borg: considering their technological capabilities, probably COULD use cloak if they wanted Yeah, I think the federation has almost every right to start building ships that can cloak after that. clearly the neighbors were already on edge when the federation wanted peace to begin with.

[@ricoj810]

@@hobomike6935 excellent points

[@BNuts]

Given the UFP's penchant for officially avoiding the use of cloaking devices, I find it fascinating that in _Star Trek Online_ , certain ships come equipped with a cloaking module: the T5 Defiant-class seems a halfway reasonable choice, but what about the Legendary Sovereign, or the Khitomer Alliance's first Battlecruiser, the Khitomer-class? I don't have the Temer-class yet, but I assume it has a cloak too. Interestingly the T5 Defiant's and the Khitomer's cloaks are the normal type, however the Legendary Sovereign seems to be equipped with a Romulan-style battle cloak, which can be reactivated in battle.

[@Quadrolithium]

Khitomer is understandable, it's an alliance and a compromise they are willing to make, I just handwaved my stealth ships as either... ""Borrowed" from the Romulans, return date: when I feel it" "Stolen from someone else and I keep it as a war prize" And my favorite excuse: "got drunk with Q and all I know I woke up smashed on a bridge of this ship"

[@pyrioncelendil]

Star Trek Online's backstory is that the Khitomer Accords have broken down, Romulus is fractured, the Borg are actively rampaging across known space... basically everything's going to hell in a handbasket and StarFleet's so hard-pressed to deal with it all that they're handing over frigates to Ensigns straight out of the Academy just to get more ships online and out there to keep things from getting worse. It's a setting where the StarFleet player character more-or-less gets brevet-promoted all the way up to Fleet Admiral yet still takes orders from lower-ranking Captains and Admirals. It's a setting where a lot of the rules and regulations have fallen by the wayside and a lot of shit that normally wouldn't fly has fallen through the cracks. It's a setting where my Fed engineer can dress herself and her senior staff up in form-fitting latex catsuits and NOTHING ELSE and everyone just looks the other way so long as shit gets fixed.

[@BNuts]

@@pyrioncelendil I find the Romulan side to be the most interesting out of all the factions. Even the KDF perspective is just kind of there without major differences after the initial arc. Mind, being able to go to Klingon Hell was a very interesting experience. Can't wait to do it in the remastered missions now that they're also available.

[@cheesaliciousable]

You mean the Terran Galaxy legendary, it gets the battle cloak from the console set it comes with which swaps the torpedo module for supplemental systems

[@MrMcSpiff]

Even the Avenger Battlecruiser, can accept a cloak even if it doesn't come with one. Outright stated as part of the Klingon-esque design philosophy of the ship, too. "We didn't put on in. But don't pay attention to the fact that it comes ready-made to integrate one."

[@scottyawesomesauce467]

Your ability to make Star Trek Discovery actually sound like it fits is astounding.

[@ronaldjones398]

Thanks,you were able to clear up, a few things

[@highlordlaughterofcanada8685]

Because the "Big Bad Treaty" is bad. Honestly, as much as I love the Federation, I'm amazed a Dominion War scenario didn't happen sooner when they make choices like this.

[@jacksuper22]

Maybe the federation knew they wouldn't be able to defeat the star empire if the war were to continue. So it was either give up cloaking technology or continue fighting a losing battle. Not sure tho, just an idea

[@highlordlaughterofcanada8685]

@@jacksuper22 Fair point.

[@Marinealver]

I really want The Orville to parody that Treaty just to point out how silly it was, to the point where it was broken dozens of times in TNG and DS9. Alien Delegation: We want a buffer zone between us and the Union, also we want the Union to make the development and deployment of shrouding technology illegal. Ed: which means you will ban shroud technology for your empire too? Alien: oh no, we will still be able to have it, but we will concede some territory to the buffer zone. Ed: that's ridiculous, you want us to give you an overwhelming tactical advantage, all while we give up territory, yet you are free to use shroud technology to enter and exit this "buffer zone" and we won't be able to tell if you are keeping your word or not. Do you think we are stupid? Alien Ambassador: Well, YES, you are human after all.

[@loganiushere]

Where was it broken in DS9? (the Defiant's cloak was a loan from the Romulans.)

[@Marinealver]

@@loganiushere only for use in the gamma quadrant (after the mining that wasn't possible). Speaking of mines those had cloaks too. It was mentioned when they went to save the Datapa Council from the Klingons just to hand wave it off (or was it when Sisko went to hunt down Ellingswoorth) doesn't matter). It is silly, always was. Doesn't ruin Star Trek any more than an exhaust port ruined Star Wars. Chill

[@loganiushere]

@@Marinealver Fair enough.

[@redapol5678]

@@Marinealver I doubt you’ll like this answer but... Because it’s a fictional show and fiction doesn’t always have to make sense (actually the same could be said about reality too at times). Gene Roddenberry said Starfleet doesn’t sneak around using cloaks, and it seems most writers stuck to that idea. DS9 broke a lot of ‘rules’ of Roddenberry so maybe full on use of cloaking devices was just one step too far at the time. Plus, it could take away the drama and complications from traditional story telling if all the spaceships in a visual TV show are invisible and/or there’s a ‘get out of jail free card’ whenever conflict arises. If you’re looking for an in-universe explanation that makes sense to you, your imagination is the limit 😊

[@Majima_Nowhere]

The treaty is kind of funny, coming at it with the perspective that space combat in Trek is supposed to be like submarine combat IRL. "We'll sign this treaty only if you agree to never rig your ships for silent running, and they must always be making more than a certain amount of noise."

[@paulnoel1383]

Great vid mate

[@casbot71]

What if: ? What if the NX Enterprise had gone straight back to Earth once they _captured a Suliban Cell ship_ after returning that Klingon, and it had been reverse engineered by Starfleet engineering instead of tinkered with by Trip in his spare time? The NX upgrade for the Xindi war arc may have been a bit more than a minor refit. Hmm… Suliban tech upscaled to a Cruiser, and with the industrial capacity of a stable Homeworld to build it, instead of small mobile rebel groups having to build it clandestinely. Oh and (another What if?) also what if Archer didn't tell the Klingons that Trips baby mama(!) was trailing them in a cloaked ship but instead just suggested they power down while Enterprise revved it's engines. Or at least insist on their own copy of the cloaking tech as compensation.

[@GrandSupremeDaddyo]

Power generation is the issue with cloaking devices. The NX Class didn't even have shields, it's unlikely it would have been able to generate the power to extend a cloak around a cruiser.

[@casbot71]

@@GrandSupremeDaddyo The Suliban Cell ship also had a very advanced compact form of warp core that if reverse engineered would have revolutionised StarFleet. Compare it's abilities to the similar sized impulse only (no long term life support ect) shuttle pods the NX used. It fitted inside the cells ship with still most of the internal space given to the crew. Retrofitted in the NX [a _minor refit?]_ and the entire warp drive would fit in the Saucer Section with ease (no nacelles, no pylons, no external bits at the rear of the Saucer), in much less space than engineering took beforehand. Then it would become a classic flying Saucer! Remember the Suliban could build and maintain these ships (and some rare larger ships) while operating as a cell structure rebel group in small hidden bases, starting from roughly the same tech level - before they got the schematics from the future. They didn't have a orbital shipyard around their Homeworld to use. Earth could have upscaled the tech. As for Trips baby mumma Allen's cloak. Yes they wouldn't be able to run at warp ect with it. But just being able to putter around at impulse with it taking most of the power would be a huge advantage. It also gives them the basis to work on to improve from there, within a few years maybe low warp while cloaked. And all they really needed was the Ferengi ship they should have kept, for the more advanced power systems. As a side note: the Ferengi's databanks would have been a valuable resource on systems and species that not even the Vulcans (or anyone in the future early Federation) knew anything about. As well, keep the Ferengi prisoner for life and let them die of old age legally without any resources. In Ferengi culture if you die bankrupt you go to hell. And send a memo to Ferenginar that that was their fate! Being killed by angry Klingons is one thing, knowing that this new species will let you die destitute in a prison is a far greater deterrent.

[@singletona082]

I always thought the treaty was because Romulans learned of genesis and could you imagine a cloaked ship launching a genesis device?

[@darthrevan1281]

It boggles the mind that the Federation would develop something like the Genesis Device and _not_ consider that other powers would immediately consider it a weapon and an existential threat. Commander Kruge did nothing wrong.

[@singletona082]

@@darthrevan1281 To be blunt? Agreed. This shows the federation's hubris and shortsightedness. It also solves a complaint I had where the genesis device was never used in spite of the fact the genesis planet itself was probably partially unstable due to being made from a nebula and starship debris along with spock's corpse instead of a dead world. That and programming refinements could have solved the matter. Instead the federation probably quietly shelves it after klingon and romulan sabre rattling and dissent amongst member worlds once wind of what genesis actually was got loose. Potential for good, yes, but considering they have gravity plating stations are good and looking at estimates of how many planets are in the galaxy the federation is probably very thinly populating the alpha quadrant compared to potential realrstate.

[@aiosquadron]

In a beta-canon series by Venom Geek Media, in the late 23rd century (aka. Lost era), a UFP-RSE cold war happened. Starfleet made the Excelsior II class Starships which can carry about a dozen, give or take Tricobalt warheads under cloaked. This was in response to RSE ships displaying their plasma torpedo yields on asteroids and making incursions into UFP space. This lead to an arms race which came to the breaking point during the Tomed incident. To prevent further conflict, the treaty of algeron was signed, banning UFP cloaks and the partial ban of the weapon several event program by both sides.

[@SantomPh]

The treaty of Algeron was still in force as of the Picard show, even quoted by Riker to save the synthoid planet.

[@darthrevan1281]

Riker could have been doing it with a wink and a grin. Seriously, who is going to stop Starfleet from developing cloaks at that point?

[@charlottar0403]

I love the esthetics of your videos, not to mention the content. :-D

[@angelortega]

“Spoilers for Discovery.” I think we’re all set on Discovery. 😂

[@Tiberiansam]

Yeah and it sucked so much that I don't even consider it canon...

[@2bituser569]

The real reason is drama would be hard to keep them in danger.

[@Sirvalorsax]

I wish they would have done more with that Pegasus episode. I do think Picard should not have informed the Romulan ship that they had one

[@charleshamilton9274]

To the casual Star Trek fan, like me, the Federation seems all too ready to sign extremely disadvantageous/ill-advised treaty agreements. Not permitting cloaked vessels and the idiocy that was the treaty with Cardassia years later are two epic examples.

[@Mikanojo]

The treaty was only beneficial to the Federation, they would have been fools not to agree to it. It did not stop them from studying and countering the cloaking technology, only from using it them selves.

[@CallanElliott]

That at very best makes it neither good or bad.

[@pyrioncelendil]

It was only beneficial to the Federation because the Romulans were naturally xenophobic expansionists. "We'll stop using a tech we have no need for if you'll keep to yourselves" established the Federation's willingness to make whatever threat its fleet disposition posed open knowledge to the Romulans in exchange for the Romulans being treaty-bound to take their expansionism elsewhere.

[@christopherg2347]

Pretty sure that after the destruction fo Romulus, the Federation more or less started to ignored the treaty. Given that there was no longer a Star Empire to enforce it. Or even a clear legal Sucessor State that you could negotiate about with regarding the treaty. Severe Damage to the Romulan Empire had already been teased in "All good things", and at least the Enterprise of that time was openly using a cloak. Propably still not standart issue, but a lot less uncommon then the defiant case.

[@paulgrattan3885]

After the collapse of the Star Empire they arent really in a position militarily to threaten the Federation. I'm sure their fleet must have been decimated. Then I'm sure civil war would have raged with the different groups looking to take control of what was left. Full scale war with the Federation was out of the question. I can see the Federation respecting the Neutral Zone out of courtesy and established borders but I doubt the Romulans didnt have a leg to stand on anymore when it came to technology.

[@trayolphia5756]

Same applies to the altered future seen by Picard in “all good things...” The refit enterprise d had a cloak after all...

[@christopherg2347]

@@trayolphia5756 I already said that in my post. Did you miss it?

[@trayolphia5756]

@@christopherg2347 must have, sorry 🖖🏻

[@christopherg2347]

@@trayolphia5756 NP. KZbin sometimes forgets to show the "there is more/expand" points.

[@thomashill6347]

Good Morning Ric, I do think it was a high price to pay BUT it saved billions of Federation lives and as you pointed out the Federation did not fall to far behind. Thanks for sharing.

[@michaelhviper]

I think the Treaty Of Algeron would be a bad deal if it was insided. Like if there wasn't a restriction for the Romulans. It's been brought to my attention that their concession was not to conquer or invade Federation worlds. I must say you forgot to mention the advanced cloak we see in The Undiscovered Country and the Scimatar in Nemesis. Both of which should have at least been mentioned as they were both instances where ships can fire when they are cloaked. Other than that I found this video very up to date and thorough.

[@tylerleavitt7383]

In my mind, the Romulan’s broken the treaty on numerous occasions the Federation should’ve insisted.

[@pyrioncelendil]

It was always more convenient to keep the treaty active and basically "look the other way" with the Romulans returning more-or-less embarrassed and chastised that whatever they were trying to do this time blew up in their faces like it always has. The overarching threat of the Federation deciding a particular incursion is too much to ignore leading to open warfare between the two parties likely was a continual source of concern to the Romulans, especially as the Federation lacking cloaking tech meant that the Romulans could see the Federation's force disposition on their long range sensors pretty much at any given time.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

@@pyrioncelendil I can see both sides avoiding an open war and instead trying to downplay any accidents. It happened the same way in the real world.

[@kal0247]

The Treaty of Algeron.

[@Velldog]

Didn't even watch the first 6 seconds before your comment?👀

[@kal0247]

@@Velldog Not sure why he's asking that question it's been stated in many episodes the treaty Starfleet signed in good faith doesn't matter if it was a smart idea they signed it so what else is their to say about that topic.

[@Velldog]

@@kal0247 Did you watch the video?

[@kal0247]

@@Velldog 3 mins of it then I had to get back to work.

[@StormcloudLive]

Big thanks for the spoiler warning at the start, really appreciate content creators who think about the viewers like that, gave a thumbs up and added to watch later until I finish off S3.

[@anwarsentinel1752]

As shown in many a trek episodes cloaking devices have lots of ways around them for non cloaked ships and have lots of weaknesses. The Dominion also don't use cloaking to prove cloaking is a default option for military superpowers.

[@SuperGamefreak18]

Let's be real the star empire was an enemy starfleet knew very little about and until the dominion attacked their most powerful enemy because of how little they knew about them, the klingons were allies now and the Borg were stronger but more predictable. Limiting their enemies was better than trying to catch up on cloaking tech and in the long run the federation got the best cloaking tech

[@markfreeman4727]

sure but the romulans were never not enemies to the federations, even if starfleet upheld the treaty the romulan attitude would be like "okay we won't got to open war RIGHT NOW" note i said open war

[@SuperGamefreak18]

@@markfreeman4727 OH yeah I know...but at the same time the treaty was a lesser of two evils and they just stayed in an information war... which is honestly in a way less resource straining than open war. That and the borg was enough of a distraction to buy starfleet time.

[@markfreeman4727]

@@SuperGamefreak18 information war my arse, the romulans were constantly trying to start fights either directly with the federation or between various parties that would weaken the federation. Even during the dominion war the romulans didn't tire from their tricks, trying to establish an armed outpost near bajorian space

[@ponyperson7513]

would like to see a d'deridex in federation style

[@notDr_Zatch]

Basicaly, that's sound like a Galaxy's class to me. (I mean the D'driex is like a galaxy class in romulan version. If my english is broken.)

[@ponyperson7513]

@@notDr_Zatch I thought more like a d'deridex in Starfleet colour, or with some Starfleet upgrades, would be interesting

[@Jelly_Skelly]

@@ponyperson7513 In Star Trek Online there are collaborative "alliance" ships made by Starfleet, the KDF, and Romulans working together. Only 2 so far, the Khitomer class looks like a D7 with a Starfleet skin, and the new Temer Class which I like to call a "warbird of prey" that looks like a bird of prey with Romulan influences in the hull design, again with a Starfleet skin.

[@ponyperson7513]

@@Jelly_Skelly maybe I should go back to STO, sounds like there's a lot of stuff I don't know about

[@Jelly_Skelly]

@@ponyperson7513 They are doing a KDF recruitment event alongside the 11th anniversary so now is a good time to pick it up, as long as you are good with playing KDF (Klingon Defense Force).

[@linkeffect82]

I personally think it was worth the peace to withhold on cloak technology research, barely. The way I see it, if the piece was not withheld with this sacrifice, the escalation between the two governments through open war could have been catastrophic. Peace on the other hand has a strategic aspect of allowing governments to quietly improve other aspects of their technology that do not break any treaty parameters or even tinker lightly on the edge of a technology barred by treaty so that if open war does come to pass, The government can delve into the technology more freely with a step in the right direction. The phase technology that Picard found out about was too dangerous as we found out, and too Deep a delving into "cloaking" technology. Great video always certifiably!

[@OUTSIDER40]

Interesting 🤔, thank you.

[@johnfoley4705]

I think the treaty was a bad deal, How the federation could make such a conceit is beyond me, The phasing cloak should have been used widely on all starships during the dominion was, as should the ablade of armor from voyager

[@Dargonhuman]

The Dominion War was over a long time before Voyager brought the ablative armor back to Starfleet, and considering the temporal violations Admiral Janeway committed to give Voyager that tech, it stands to reason that Starfleet would classify that tech and lock it away as soon as possible. I do agree that the phase cloak tech would have certainly helped during the Dominion War, though. The entire segment of the war where Starfleet and the Romulans were sidelined because of that damn Breen weapon could have been skipped if they could have just interphased and let the shots pass through their ships to name just one example. The only reasonable explanation I can think of for not using it is the tech was too unstable and unpredictable for widespread combat use. I imagine that engineers from both Starfleet and Romulus were trying to make the tech work more reliably but were unable to figure it out before the end of the war.

[@jonathansullivan6706]

The beta Canon explanation is that the Federation tricked the Romulans into thinking that they were developing cloaking technology, and demanding certain important territories in exchange for the promise not to pursue a technology that the Federation had no interest in.

[@weareorigin]

Me as captain of Voyager: divert power to our phase cloak. crew: we are entering Federation space me: okay destroy our phase cloak device.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

Makes me also thing why didn't they got a bit more open on certain rules. Develop and acquire tech that the Federation isn't allowed to have, and get rid of it once they enter known space.

[@warshrike666]

Great vid as always mate, I think the episode Pegasus explained the Treaty well and why it was a good thing. You didn't mention the Phase Cloak here that Starfleet had developed when Riker was just an Ensign on the Pegasus. So what is that approximately 20 years before he served on the D in that episode. That is a major advancement in cloaking tech above and beyond anything i ever heard of the Romulans having. I find it strange that when Starfleet did eventually get cloaks on their ships they were not Phase Cloaks. The tactical advantage is beyond measure, why would they not have perfected it?

[@keit99]

Maybe they hit a roadblock that made it impossible to develop them further

[@segevstormlord3713]

I still think the pegasus cloak should be standard on all starfleet ships past a certain point. The negation of space hazards the deflector dish can't handle alone makes it worthwhile.

[@markfreeman4727]

its policies like this that make me hate the federation. It would make sense if the romulans were also banned from using cloaking tech but no, the federation gave one of its great enemies (and would continue to be a great enemy for a long time) a permanent tactical advantage for short term "peace". same thing with the cardassians, the federation gave up various colonized planets, displaced or disowned entire planetary populations, for what? they were never friends with the cardassians, they forced their own citizens to rebel, and the cardassians ended up going to war with them again anyway?

[@NACLGames]

I have a hard time buying the idea that it bought only short term peace when: 1. It stopped the cold war between the two states for more than half a century, with no incidents, deaths, etc for more than a whole generation. 2. Both average and politically-powerful romulans eventually would come to know of the Federation's straight-dealing and benign nature, despite extreme levels of romulan propaganda. A fact they knew they themselves lacked. This placed the Federation in the superior negotiating position both practically and morally when these people eventually replaced extremists in the government. 3. The Cardassian DMZ problem is actually a good indication of what happens when the Federation abandons its lofty ideals, instead of sticking to them, for short term gain. 4. Cloaking IS a short term gain. All it precipitates is an endless arms race to develop the better cloak. Just like with any other aspect of war technology.

[@markfreeman4727]

@@NACLGames 1: they may not have been shooting each other but to say hostilities ended is a bit naïve, the romulans were just stalling till they could figure out how to conquer the rest of the galaxy. 2: fair point 3: it would have been one thing for the federation to just abandon planets but like i said they left entire planetary population to fend for themselves, to the point it sparked open rebellion, and for what? the cardassian situation was similar to the romulan one and need I remind you of the dominion war? 4: thats like saying every tank and fighter jet should be scrapped rather than join the endless arms race, you ever hear the term necessary evil?

[@TheBigExclusive]

The Treaty of Algeron prevents Starfleet from creating their own cloaking devices. However, the treaty does not prevent the Federation from getting cloaking devices from the Klingons! Therefore the Federation did not violate the treaty like you described in the video.

[@jonathansullivan6706]

In one of the lost era novels, the explanation is that the Federation essentially tricked the Romulans into thinking that they had cloaking technology, but in reality did not and used it as a bartering chip. The Federation had no interest in cloaks, but if the Romulans wanted Starfleet to give up the pursuit of such technology, then they'd have to give something up. In this case, I believe it was territory, though which sector of space it was escapes my memory.

[@darthrevan1281]

There is no way that a military organization (Starfleet is a navy, let’s be real here) would have “no interest” in advanced stealth technology that their adversaries possess. That rationalization is just as nonsensical as the treaty itself, and is directly contradicted by the TOS episode where Starfleet sends Kirk on a mission to steal a Romulan cloak.

[@jonathansullivan6706]

@@darthrevan1281 Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it makes sense, but if that was the advantage the Romulans thought they would keep with that bargain, then I guess it was the best that Starfleet thought they could get away with.

[@charlescooney9281]

I heard the neutral zone got 3 times larger on the Romulan side for giving up cloaking technology.

[@dswynne]

I always felt that, beyond military applications, a cloaking field was good, and perhaps necessary, when it comes to surveying and exploration missions. Also: I seriously doubt that S31 didn't have their own cloaking technology. Regardless, I am SO glad that Starfleet can employ cloaking technology. It's funny how GR stated that the reason why Starfleet shouldn't have cloaking tech is because Starfleet shouldn't be sneaking around in space, ignoring the practical applications of cloaking tech. Oh, well. BTW, I still want to know what happened to the Remans, since they are off-shoots of the Romulans, who mutated thanks to their environment on Remus...

[@DavidLS1]

I thought Darth Vader blew up Algeron with his Death Star.

[@darthrevan1281]

Weirdly, cloaking devices are canon in Star Wars, and are even specifically mentioned by name in _The Empire Strikes Back_ .

[@DavidLS1]

@@darthrevan1281 But, for some reason, only on large ships.

[@darthrevan1281]

@@DavidLS1 They are a massive power drain in every reality.

[@Mobysimo]

I see the whole "We don't sneak around" thing from Gene as one of the dumbest things I've ever heard my in my life. Like... Wow

[@christopherg2347]

It would have been a wonderfull saver of SFX budget, but it makes for boring stories if everyone just cloaks and nobody can maneuver for fear of running into each other. Also when your cloak is defeated, that means you do not have shields. Most starfleet ships and installations do pretty poorly without shields. Just ask the defiant Crew how well the cloak works: - on first use in the Delta Quadrant it was defeated and the ship taken out quickly. Without Odo, the ship would have been a total loss - then it was not used for a while - then it got stolen by the marquis. Kira sabotaged the cloak - then a bug with the cloak send 3 senior officers back in time! - then the cloak was disabeled by Eddington, when they tried to rescue Odo from the Obisidian Order/Tal Shiar taskforce f-up - it think they may have actually used it back in "Adversary", to not be intercepted by Tzenketi - another use was when rescuing the Detapa council. No further use in the Klingon/Federation war - no use in Starship down - no use in Homefront/paradise lost - they actually used it back in "Trials and Tribblelations", to avoid temporal contamination The only times they ever used it sucessfully was in the Alpha Quadrant - the one place they were not supposed to use it - and even here it was barely a footnote.

[@stofsk]

I think the treaty worked, and was probably (one of) the reasons why the Romulans went isolationist for the better chunk of a century before TNG. I like the speculation another commenter made, that the Romulans gave up on the big plasma torpedoes we saw in 'Balance of Terror' and 'The Deadly Years' in TOS. That's a very neat way of tying up this loose thread.

[@gschneyer]

Well it was interesting how the Enterprise faced the Romulans for the first time in Balance of Terror, where through brinksmanship Kirk wins out against the cloaking prototype. (Aired 12/15/66) Yet in The Enterprise Incident (aired 9/27/68, less than two years later) the Romulans caught them using Klingon designed vessels with cloaks, they acted surprised, and Spock said how Starfleet Intelligence advised about the use of cloaking technology. Maybe they should review their logs.

[@ws_stelzi79]

Ah yes the a "includes very well thought out Discovery canon" disclaimer would have been appreciated.

[@micheal6898]

Discovery? Cannon ? Hhahahahah

[@MLPDethDealr32]

Disco is an insult to Star Trek and not canon as far as I'm concerned.

[@micheal6898]

@Jesse Schröder its a shitty alternate universe. They just don't claim it because they want to reboot the franchise with shit

[@hobomike6935]

@Jesse Schröder Not in the eyes of the people who care AKA almost all the fans.

[@hunglikeahorse120]

@Jesse Schröder It IS fucking dumb though. I watched about 4 or 5 episodes and hated everyone of them. I’m just glad it hasn’t gotten the Star Wars treatment.

[@tzor]

I am reminded of an odd Sherlock Holmes movie (The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes) that involved an experimental submarine. Queen Victoria arrives on the scene to observe the new device. When she discovered that the vessel could attack without being visible or “raising the colors” she replied that she was not amused and that pretty much skuttled the project. The same is true for the Federation and cloaking technology. The whole notion is counter to the attitude of the Federation. I can even see a Federation President or two even saying, “We are not amused.” And apparently the Federation had no need of it, since they, for the most part, did not illegally sneak into other territories in what would have otherwise been acts of war if discovered. It is important to note that “Balance of Terror” was originally a story about a submarine.

[@kennywoods7232]

As I recall, the TOS manuals back in the day gave the explanation that at one point the Romulans were having difficulties either designing or building large ships, so they struck a deal with the Klingons. Part of that deal was cloaking technology, this was the explanation of why they had ships that were so close in appearance. But Romulans being Romulans, they faulted the deal, then being Klingons, they took to shooting Rommies. This was also the first reason for their conflict and hatred of each other.

[@unclekevin5094]

The main reason was to prevent the writers from using it as a method of creating impossible situations and then at the last moment having a "Deus Ex Machina" moment and all the heros get away. A little bit like every time Burnham appears.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

They could just have it break in situation. Just like how the shields seem to go down after taking a couple hits and nobody though about upgrading them.

[@Wolfphototech]

*The whole no cloaking technologies thing is weird and stupid to a whole nother level .* *It's even dumber that romulens where not stripped of thier cloaking technologies .*

[@thunberbolttwo3953]

The federation would have had to go to war to do that. Which was never going to happen.

[@markfergerson2145]

The Treaty of Algeron was basically an admission by the Romulans that they were overall militarily inferior to the Federation and needed exclusive use of cloaking tech to maintain parity with the Fed. The Romulans, as you note, consistently underestimated the Fed's ability to puzzle out each successive generation of cloaking tech as we saw. The Treaty gave the Romulans a false sense of security, without which they might have started another war with the Fed in hopes of preventing the Fed overruning them later.

[@artembentsionov]

Nice reference to The Lost Era book. I loved that one! And to think that Section 31 wasn’t even involved

[@casbot71]

There is a simple counter to cloaks - a full blooded Betazoid. _And what if they could read the shield frequently on other ships._ As well there is that stealth tech on the Mercenary ship in *Gambit* _[two parter with Picard accidentally undercover after being kidnapped, hunting for a ancient Vulcan weapon - which StarFleet should have kept… it would have devastated the Jem'Hadar and the Cardassians when used by calm Humans and disciplined Vulcans]._ The hull coating meant that the ship (which was captured) could not be picked up by long range sensors, so it could only be detected visually - and it didn't limit performance with power demands, so shields and warp drive were unaffected. That would have been strategically incredibly useful as fleets could move without detection until they were in combat range - and it may have hindered weapons locks and scanning the interiors of ships. And it wouldn't lead to accidental collisions and that sort of thing, ships could also just use a transponder when in _full peaceful mode._ There is also beta canon (I think a RPG I once "downloaded") that StarFleet has full replicator schematics for cloaks in the every ships database, hidden in encrypted files, and should the Romulan cold war ever turn hot a fleet wide order could be issued that would unlock the files and allow all StarFleet vessels to upgrade themselves in flight… presumably the files would have been updated for each ship type so that a Galaxy and a Oberth produce different model cloaks (or all types could have been included in the database, and the ship chooses the appropriate one). If so then it would have been useful for Voyager to hack those files, if they knew about them. But then they should have been able to produce a workable cloak just from their technical knowledge anyway …perhaps not state of the Romulan art, but good enough for their neighbourhood.

[@davidmarsden192]

I always thought Starfleet NEEDED to cloak their ships - when they are in (or near) planets who are on the verge of space travel (but not quite there yet). Such planets would obviously have technology which be able to detect objects (with great accuracy) within their solar system (as we are close to doing now). They'd need the cloak in order to make sure the Prime Directive was upheld during research and scientific missions. Just my opinion.

[@ascii7085]

The Defiant joke made me lol👍

[@thomascollier7245]

The Romulan officer assigned to the cloaking device on The defiant didn’t disappear she was a Cardasian agent who got recalled to become Cesca on voyager!

[@shanenolan8252]

I always wondered if the romulan cloaking device Kirk stole was used by the federation during the brief war with the Romulans hence the romulan no cloaking device clause in the treaty

[@venkelos6996]

The thing that always confused me was the "in exchange we..." part of the treaty. Sure, the Federation got something out of it, I guess, and their own style didn't really need military stealth technology, but I feel the Romulans weren't really in a position to say "and in return, we won't destroy the Federation", or I feel they just would have. If they said "and we won't meddle in the Federation", that was an obvious lie, and their own cloaks made it easy, when necessary, even with gravitic sensors along the Neutral Zone. I just never really got what concessions the Star Empire made, in accordance, for the agreement, even if the Federation wasn't really offput by it, barring the likes of Admiral Pressman.

[@Lukos0036]

I think I would have preferred it to be a Washington naval treaty like limitation on tonnage range and firepower over an outright ban.

[@darthrevan1281]

That treaty didn't work either...

[@lukemckee9772]

Damn Romulians back at it again with the cloak

[@leinahtan_5254]

Bro idk why, but just hearing your voice makes me want to play some STO lol

[@tomcat124us]

One of the best cloaks is from Ancients in Stargate Atlantis. Those Puddle Jumpers could be tracked at all.

[@patrickstivers7387]

Except by a ZPM powered Hive Ship.

[@tomcat124us]

@@patrickstivers7387 now that was OP ep out of the series, but Seed eluded to it trying to transform Atlantis to SuperHive. Even Atlantis had issue keeping up with 3 Z.PM.s though almost depleted. I think only with Aurora-class Battle Cruiser with Asgard Power Beam Weapons and Drone Weapons and powered by Project Arcturus Device or Ori Mother Ship could go toe to toe with the SuperHive.

[@Zeithri]

That's an interesting way to try and put everything into one incoherent singular timeline. The Romulan ship design and tech only look like that due to the Temporal Cold War. Romulans should not have cloak at that time and sensorscreen is mostly a fancy way of saying stealth. Likewise this Temporal Cold War splits it into the Discovery era stuff so that is separate as well. It is safe therefore to assume that the cloak the Klingons find is a result of the Temporal Cold war. But most notably! You forgot the amazing novel by SD Perry called Cloak, that details what happened to the Cloak that the Enterprise stole ( _TOS Era novel, set after the Enterprise incident, and before For the World is Hollow and I have Touched the Sky_ ) ! You must read it, it's fantastic.

[@wingsley]

Back when TNG's "The Defector" first came out on TV, fans started asking why Picard was pining to "overcome this advantage" of apparently Romulan-only cloaking technology. This didn't make sense too them, since Capt. Kirk stole a Romulan device decades earlier. None other than Gene Roddenberry himself responded publicly: "Our people are explorers. They don't sneak around" which supposedly slammed the door on the notion of Federation possession of any cloaking technology of any kind until Rick Berman's creative people resurrected the idea years after Roddenberry's death. On the one hand, the whole idea of clearly

[@Max_Flashheart]

I didn't see this video coming.

[@demogorgonzola]

Clearly cloaked upload! :)

[@nunya3163]

I think a better question is, how is it that Romulans and Klingons can operate in formations when cloaked, and maneuver in battle when cloaked, without ever flying into one another. In the Dominion war PC game, it was suggested that the Klingons had a communications system that allowed the cloaked ships to communicate and coordinate when cloaked. If so, you would think that this would be a major vulnerability allowing the Federation and others to hack in, and not only detect the cloaked vessels nearby, but to potentially identify, and track them using listening posts.

[@johnwclick]

There was the Suliban cloak, which they got a good look at, and of course the one on the Bird of Prey Kirk et. al. flew back to Earth in ST 4, so they had a good enough look at it (especially Scotty) to make one, and they didn't seem out of their depth working on it at that time. Of course if Starfleet needs more.... there's always the Ferengi... I'm sure they have quite a few tucked away somewhere, for "special buyers" ...and I don't think they signed the treaty...so....I think Quark even gave one to a former Cardassian lover...it was small enough to fit in the hands.

[@justinmickatavage7838]

You should consider podcasts.. I love listening to this stuff as I work. I guess there isnt a profit motive there.. =)